What it's like being queer (LGBTQ+) in the Netherlands?
The Netherlands is one of the most accepting and tolerant countries in the world for LGBTQ+ people. June is LGBT Pride Month and in this video, I talked to several people about their experiences of being queer in the Netherlands vs. their home country.
📖 LGBTQIA+ stands for lesbian, gay, bisexual, trans, queer, intersex, asexual, and more.
⏰ CHAPTERS:
00:00 Intro
00:57 🇫🇷 French in NL
06:14 🇦🇷 Argentinian in NL
09:17 🏴 English in NL
13:25 Ending
📽 OTHER VIDEOS:
🇳🇱 Dutch culture shocks - • What are the biggest D...
🇳🇱 Why are the Dutch so direct? - • Why are the Dutch so d...
🇳🇱 What is it like working in the Netherlands - • What is it like workin...
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😁 WHO AM I?
I'm David, a Californian living in Amsterdam. I make videos about life in the Netherlands, hiking/traveling, and the Camino de Santiago.
🔸 If you live in the Netherlands, I'd love to hear your story and interview you.
Email: hidavidwen@gmail.com
#lifeinthenetherlands #lgbt #lifeineurope
What have your experiences been with the LGTBQIA+ community in The Netherlands? Your views?
I'm dutch myself, and i have no problem with gay, lesbian or trans people, i do however have a problem with LGBTQ+. And before you get mad at me and call me a homophobe (for all of you sensitive people), i simply do not care who you go to bed with (for all of you putting your sexual preference in your description on apps like discord, i honestly just dont need to know), as long as they are humans above the age of 18. I've also seen so many people try to justify being a pedophile or zoophile with LGBTQ+ that i simply dont support it anymore. There also isnt really this thing known as fighting for equality in The Netherlands given the fact that you can already marry anyone you want. So why are people so obsessed about it? I'm very open to attempts at changing my mind on this topic, as long as you keep the conversation polite.
I have no problem with it. I mezelf have a transfriend. What I do find dissepointing is that a lot of kids in my school are in a way being told that it is not okay to be gay or trans or anything else.
too much propaganda unfortunately
@@Timotheskyrimfan Thanks for sharing. I do see that just from reading about other people's perspectives...I'm curious to hear...who or what is telling them that it is not ok?
@@fighterjetenthuisiast Thanks for sharing. It's a nice thing to hear that many people here don't feel the need to "fight" for equality as compared to other parts of the world. I think another reason that makes the Netherlands a great place to live.
Being Dutch and this subject...it depends a lot on where you live in NL. And although we do have a small country, we do have regions where it's far different then other regions. And i had high hopes 10 years ago that finally it was over with the struggles. But no. People are still stuggling everyday. But last few years it is getting more agressive. And that worries me a lot. It is one thing that people don't agree with eachother but it is worse when people use more and more violence if they don't agree. That is not okay. I am gonna add something to this comment what really strikes me the most. That is that 2 people that love eachother should be able to hold hands or cuddle or give eachother a hugh in a perfect loving moment. If someone that is against gay people shouts weird things from across the street...your moment is gone. Let love be don't do that and ruin someone's moments bc you you think you are all that. That is also harassment. You ruined a beautifull moment between 2 people. Think about that before you act.
Thanks for sharing. Yeah, I do think it depends on where you live. Like the English lady said...it depends on where you are...there is a difference between big city and small town. It shows in the study too...that while most Dutch people tolerate homosexuality...but still many LGBTQ+ people still don' feel comfortable holding hands in public.
@@hidavidwen I know for a fact that even in Amsterdam it still happens that gay people don't feel safe. In certain area's they could even be beaten up. It happened a lot a few years ago. Out of all city's in the Netherlands, Amsterdam is the last city you would expect that to occur i geuss :s But this is an example and i still hear so many story's from people. It really makes me sad every time :(
@@xxmilannathanxx I've unfortunately also heard some of these stories in Amsterdam...of people getting shouted at for "holding hands." I mean everywhere...you will always have different types of people with different types of views. I come from San Francisco...which you could say is the equivalent of Amsterdam in the US when it comes to tolerance...and I can tell you that while the city generally is quite open and tolerant...I've also seen a lot of hate too =/
@@hidavidwen as a Dutch gay guy and having lived in San Francisco myself as a student (in 2003) I can say that the sense of “community” and “belonging” is much bigger in SF than it is in Amsterdam. There’s really no comparable place like Castro that you could find in Amsterdam imo.
@@OprechtLetterlijkBizar thanks for sharing your experience. yeah I can certainly see that…Castro in San Francisco is a whole neighborhood/district compared to one street in Amsterdam
This was really interesting to see how other internationals experience being LGBTQ+ in the Netherlands. From Dutch people, I often hear that that acceptance is going down rather than up now. Many will say that Dutch people hang on the coattails of being the first to legalize gay marriage and use it to excuse not making more progress. It is better than most places, but like the last person said, there's much work to be done.
Thanks for sharing. I think the studies also show that acceptance in NL is going down. There's still a lot of work to be done
There's also a huge difference between a city like Amsterdam or a smaller town.
@@hidavidwenits because of increasing number of muslim people who immigrate to tne Netherlands, who tend to be more homophobic overall.
On the one hand, it's sad that it's still "a thing", even in our country. On the other hand, I'm glad The Netherlands is, at least in my circle, accepting. If queer people can be themselves in our little country, then by all means, move here and be who you are. I encourage it.
Thanks for sharing. The Netherlands ranks higher than most countries in the world when it comes to acceptance...I think it will always be a thing (as humans with different views)...but it is getting better around the world if you look at the studies! Happy summer! ☀️
@@hidavidwen while Netherlands ranks higher than most countries, Netherlands ranking isn’t great. Currently it ranks #14 in the Rainbow index, which is 1 down from last year (13). Countries like Belgium, France, Spain, the Nordics and even countries like Greece and Portugal perform better. It’s pretty shameful for a country which 20+ years ago used to be the number 1 regarding LGBTQ rights.
@@OprechtLetterlijkBizar thanks Rob. I didn’t know it dropped and has worsened over the years…what do you think is causing it?
@@hidavidwen it’s not that LGBTQ-laws in Netherlands are worsening, it’s just that other countries are progressing at a faster rate. Netherlands still has some room to improve specifically concerning transgender regulations and rights. And in addition Netherlands could do better regarding anti-violence, for example other countries have “hate crime” integrated in their national law while Netherlands still has not.
@@hidavidwen it hasn’t really worsened it’s just that the Netherlands basically stood still the past decade. We’ve been trying to ban conversion therapy for a long time now, for some stupid reason it’s still legal. Meanwhile other countries have been making many changes in a very short timespan. Personally, I think our current government plays a huge role in this problem and many people have been growing fed up with them more and more. I just hope it’s enough to out-vote the elderly who no longer care and vote what they used to, which is the biggest group. Many of them aren’t busy with topics like LGBTQ or the environment unfortunately. So yeah, for some reason it’s been the same for at least a decade. Thankfully a lot still progressed within the population and the vast majority considers it completely normal. But unfortunately there is no energy put in more help for the community. Sorry for the big text lol.
In the Netherlands, we genuinely (in general) respect individual preferences, including sexual preferences. However, as the Argentinian guy rightly pointed out, sexual preferences are just one aspect of a person's overall identity. If your entire identity solely revolves around your sexual orientation, you may have some soul-searching to do.
Thanks for sharing. I think what the Argentinian guy said is true as well...that we are not defined by one part...though it's not easy to not care what others think-especially loved ones and society. And easier to embrace other parts of our identities when we feel accepted
Fair point, we dutch generally dont care about someone's sexual orientation. Whatever people on twitter might claim, your sexual identity is not a big deal. When it comes down to it, its just liking a different flavor of body parts. Why revolve your entire personality around it?
So now you imply people who focus mostly on sexuality are somewhat bad?
@@GrandTerr yes. Because if i were to meet someone who can't talk about anything other than gender and sexuality, someone who goes out of their way to completely cover themselves in pride flag and LGBT pins and clothing, that just tells me that person has zero noteworthy traits. Pretty funny since technically i'm part of the LGBT community. Though in the loosest sense possible. Been openly bi for over a good 4 years now but i've distanced myself from the entire community. I speak from experience when i say that these sort of people have nothing else to offer other than their colourful identity.
No one is covered in flags and pins in daily life. Most who wear a pin have overcome something and are proud of that, wearing the pin with pride. I wonder if you are annoyed/upset/uneasy seeing a pin on a jacket or bag. If this is the case you just might have internal homophobia to deal with.
I really liked you not interrupting the people you interviewed. Not interrupting them gave them more confidence and made them more willing to share, I think. Impressive.
Aw thanks for the kind words 🙂
Hi David, I remember when I attended the opening of the Gay Games in 1998, in the (now named) Johan Cruyff Arena. A huge event which draw thousands and thousands to the Netherlands. The opening speech was done by the late mayor Patijn, who welcomed all attendees to „his" city and to emphasize they must have fun during their stay. Much to my shock.... I saw some people, foreign visitors, around me cry. I realised that they came from countries where it was not widely accepted, even dangerous, to be out and proud. And here they were, a mayor welcoming them. That made a huge impression to me. Still it brings me back to that moment, the emotion I felt, thinking back. The Netherlands made huge progress. Talking to the elder gay people, they can tell you they too used to live, party in secrecy, but over time it developed in what we now have.. Although I must emphasize that it depends strongly in which parts of the Netherlands you are, in which city. We have progressive cities and villages, but also a conservative Bible belt. And on top of that, we have nutters, racists, misogynists and homophobic people too. Personally I do not have that many gay friends. Most of my friends happen to be straight. The funny thing I noticed, is that my straight friends tend to be the most physical ones. Like in hugging me, kissing me welcome (on the cheek) no matter where we meet. My gay friends tend to be weary. If we are in the open, they might act more reserved, afraid that showing gay behaviour might draw negative attention from the environment. My straight friends are very sure of themselves, and they don't care what other people think. They are all very very straight looking 😉 with girlfriends, wives and children. When they were younger (no kids yet) we went partying a lot. They came with me to gay parties, I went with them to hardcore parties. Those were the days. Thousands of pictures to prove, how close they are, how much we partied. Whenever we discuss relationships, we discuss it as is: man/woman, man/man. Very seriously (in depth) and without any reservation. One anecdote. I recently learnt that one of their friends (not mine, although I know him), a very straight looking guy, who dated girls, secretly had flings with boys. It came out because one his former girlfriends found out and exposed it. His (my) friends had a great laugh about it. Not because he had flings with a guys, but that he hid it for them. They still are friends; it's his personal thing. I have a very good job in banking; cash management. Before my current job I used to work at the corporate account management. My co-workers were always very interested to know how I spent my weekend. If I bought a new outfit for clubbing, they were curious to see it. All knew I was living with my long time boyfriend (we separated after 20 years). On social events he was also invited. Wasn't a big deal. Also in my current department. A couple of years we had several weddings in a row. One of them was a gay wedding. It was like the other weddings. All coworkers were invited. We all had a ball. My company (the third bank of the Netherlands) like other Dutch banks, strive for equality and inclusivity. This is displayed in our posters. Internally we have had articles on co-workers who tell about there coming out stories. A transgender co-worker wrote her story on how she transformed from man into woman. The last years my employer strived actively to create diversity among its employees. That it reflects the consistency of the Dutch society. So we have all sorts of etnicities, religions, skin colours and sexual identities among our colleagues. Since I am so used to it, videos of racial and sexual discrimination in other countries affect me emotionally. I wish people all over the world can be who they are.
Thanks so much for sharing, appreciate it. I think it's with these stories that we learn that we are all human-similar and different-but human. I think belonging is such an important topic and so vital to human happiness. Here's to the hope that more people can feel like they belong in this world.
The Gay Games in Amsterdam were magic - Roze in het Blauw / Pink in blue / gay cops out and proud , a whole city decked out in Rainbow colours . I decided to move to NL then and there, I did in 2010 and have not looked back . Nothing is perfect, even in our kikkerlandje , but compared to the rest of the world ... Me asking employers, whether they are inclusive a normal part of finding a job here , not raising eyebrows but prospective employers showing off their inclusion credentials . The diversity and the acceptance of it is normal .
@@realpirate good to read!!! Yes, we have our flaws in the Netherlands, but better here then elsewhere. Happy to read you are happy 🙏🏽🇳🇱
I don't think I'll ever not be afraid to be queer in public, regardless where I live. I love seeing my queer peers being themselves in public and always try and smile at a gay and lesbians holding hands (which might sound creepy!) I'm just trying to say, i see you, love it, don't let go ❤
Thanks Liam! Glad to hear you feel comfortable being yourself regardless of where you are...and you are happy for others too-that's so important in order to live a happy life!
It's in the Dutch constitution; "everybody has the right to be who he wants to be"
Thanks for sharing this
I love hearing these stories! The normalness of the LGBTQ+ community is appearent when I think about how many of my friends here are open about it.
Thanks for sharing...and yeah, I realized through talking to people and through my travels that it isn't the same everywhere to be so tolerant and accepting.
Yessss! A new video
Thanks Laura, appreciate the kind words. It's a big topic indeed. And happy summer and pride month to you too :)
I love how accepting and even welcoming a lot of places have become, coming from some of these people's experiences. It's amazing, honestly... And I think most of the world will only grow more accepting in time. ☀️☀️
Thanks for sharing =) It is indeed interesting to hear from different perspectives. And to understand that...it's not the same everywhere...that people are still not accepted in many parts of the world. I also think it will change over time too :)
David even in het Nederlands (ik ben moe) en ik weet dat je het kunt lezen of vertalen. ik zit nu op 8.14 van je video en weet je wat in me op komt? Ik had een collega waar ik leiding aan gaf en waaraan iedereen om me heen merkte dat hij homoseksueel was op een zeker moment zei: :Ik ben homo! Ik heb een vriend". Hij wachtte mijn reactie af. Maar mijn reactie was nogal Nederlands. Ik zei zoiets als: "Dus....?)". Wat kon mij het nou schelen? Hij zat er meer mee dan ik. Maar wat gebeurde er? We spraken met elkaar en het was geen punt. Het was een opluchting voor hem. En voor mij ook. Dat hij zei wat hij voelde, voelde goed voor mij. Dus toen? Gewoon weer lekker aan het werk. Moraal van het verhaal: Je bent wie je bent!
Yes, I think that's such a good reaction 😂
@@laragess mwah, het is een redelijke reactie. Hetero’s beseffen vaak niet dat mensen die gay zijn eigenlijk altijd “aan staan”, omdat het zomaar eens zou kunnen zijn in elke situatie op elk moment van de dag dat ze met anderen in aanraking komen, dat er slecht op hen gereageerd wordt. Van negatief bejegenen, negeren, smalend zijn, tot micro-aggressies tot plagerijen en tot verbaal en fysiek geweld aan toe. Gays zijn eigenlijk altijd op hun hoede en dat kan heel vermoeienf en stressvol zijn. Dus ja, het kan zo iemand heel veel moeite kosten en stress opleveren om uit de kast te komen voor een leidinggevende. Dus dat is zeker iets waar een leidinggevende empathie voor zou kunnen hebben. Prima hoor wanneer men koeltjes en nonchalant reageert met een “en dus” maar ook wel weer typisch Nederlands en niet heel erg warm en begripvol. Heel zakelijk, zoals Nederlanders over het algemeen zijn.
Thanks Bert for sharing =) But a nice reaction like Laura said. Especially because I'm sure that made him feel a lot more safe and comfortable in the workplace...which is always a good thing when we talk about team performance. Because sounds like a lot of trust was built when he was finally able to "come out"..and then got a response from you that made him feel accepted.
@Rob I've heard this as well from some gay people...that they feel the need to hide themselves at work...and always on guard...because they feel like coming out or being "themselves" may hurt them
Hey David, thank you so much for this video. I'm also part of the LGBTQ+ comunity and lived in the Netherlands (Utrecht) for 1 year and a half for my 2nd master's degree. I was deeply amazed about how safe it was for me to just be myself, especially about the fact that I could marry and/or adopt without any issues. There are so many things we take for granted, and when I came back to my home country, Italy - where LGBTQ+ marriage, adoption, and law protection are still illegal - I realized that I missed that freedom. That is, being treated as a human being, and having the chance of building a future family without the fear of getting harassed because of... existing. I really can't wait to come back in the NL or just move to any other country with better human rights. Meantime, please keep it up with this kind content and topics. We should never take anything for granted, and surely need more awareness on this matter. So... thank you again! Hope to see more videos like this in the future ❤
Thanks for the kind words and sharing your story/perspective 🙏 you’re welcome and best wishes to you wherever you go next (and hopefully it’ll provide you peace, happiness, and fun too)
Great that you raise this subject! I think it's not such a problem to be gay, lesbian or bi. However, trans and non binary persons still have to fight for their place in the society. There is even an awful right-wing foundation, De Roze Leeuw, which is anti-trans. Fortunately I notice that the youth seems much more open-minded!
Thanks for sharing. I think you bring up a good point. Trans and non binary persons are still not really understood…I think most youth everywhere seem more open minded
Always look forward to your videos, David! You have evolved into such a sensitive (and sensible) interviewer. The Argentinian man had a very logical and rational outlook. A breath of fresh air. Please delve into more topics which showcase the Dutch values … which you so admire.
Thanks for the kind words and for the feedback. Appreciate the support. Will do :)
I am slightly more cynical. Let's not forget that until I believe 2014 coming out as transgender also meant a government mandated castration, e.g. you could not be out and open transgender and harbor any hope to have children. Also I find a lot of acceptance is really only skin-deep, and tolerance is indeed a better word. A lot of people tolerate it, because it is the thing to do right now, but I doubt as many people care if LGBTQ+ rights become curtailed again. Then, I am sorry to say, there is the large influx of immigrants of Muslim and now Eastern-European countries. You may paint me a xenophobe or racist if you like, but my lived experience here in Amsterdam is that it has seriously damaged LGBTQ+ safety and acceptance. Just a few weeks ago it was all over the news again that a drag queen (not even in drag at that moment, but 'just' a gay guy) could beaten up in the bus, he fled to the subway and got beaten up there some more. Most people just stood and watched until finally some women intervened. I think the state of affairs for LGBTQ+ people is diminishing, not improving. Let's not also forget the parties PVV and FvD who also feel things have gone 'too far' when it comes to LGBTQ+ acceptance and want to dial the clock back some. As far as I can gather the up and coming BBB is, though not outspoken, also more of a proponent of back country ideals revolving around traditional family values. According to world rankings on both women's rights, queer rights and standards like equal pay, the Netherlands is also in the descendent, not the ascendant. Silly that only expats got asked about their experience, and not a single local or native.
Thanks for sharing your experience. That is very troubling to hear...that someone got beat up just for being himself =/ I also read that the Netherlands is ranking lower in terms of LGBTQ+ rights...which says something. It would certainly make the video stronger if there was a Dutch person, thanks for the feedback.
you are not presenting the issue correctly, between 1958-2014 if you wanted to officially change your gender for the state you had to have surgery and defacto physically become that gender.
Thank you so much for this contribution! I really love it, it helps to make people realise that we’re ALL humans. With all our quirks and habits, just as the Argentinian guy pointed out, nobody should be placed in a box based on one aspect of your personality. You are so much more! That said, although in the (maybe) most liberal country in the world, there’s still a lot of work to be done … They can still bend the rules to fire you for you being openly gay, as I’ve experienced from a governmental department that is supposed to comply with the laws. But no worries, I’ve found a new job with a company with an open mind and that welcomed me for my abilities instead of rejecting me for the gender of the person I sleep with … I really do appreciate and love that attitude ❤❤❤
Thanks for sharing Andy. Glad to hear you found a place where you feel like you “belong.” Company culture is also very important too! And I think as humans…we need to feel like we belong-that’s how we evolved as a species.
Hi David, in the Netherlands there was and still is sexual education that was/is inclusive, we did not use queer in them. With reasons. We also used LHBTI+ with reason, LGBTI+. I believe these reasons had a lot to do with us being leading in LGBTI+ rights in the late 1990 and early 2000's. For example just the begining of the video queer and gay are interchangable and also used as such. Further more it is used for "different". Van de verkeerde kant zijn, anders zijn, onnatuurlijk, dwars, all these mindsets link in with us being different. And while there are differences, we are not that different. We are not van de verkeerde kant, we are not anders than other human beings, we are not unnatural, we are not quer [DE also the linguistic origin of] or queer. This was about LGBTI getting integrated, you don't get integrated for being queer. Passing and the GSD community... Also Gay is already the second letter in the alphabeth. Besides that the Q had multiple meanings given to it in the 80's and 90's in the accronym. Questioning was one of them. Besides all this we talked about the sexual diversity, or gender and sexual diversity. Americanized this would be GSD, you know, accronyms and American culture. This is as inclusive and non-favorative one can get to label our group/community. But no - Queer is being pushed for some years now, and even finding foot in the NL. Queer only got this big because of American cultural influences. And it being used as a term in American publishings and fields like queer theology which is other languages also is known as homo theology. Ever since the queer push became stronger our movement went off the rails, so to speak - got derailed. Besides this queer is a label used by NAMBLA, they were not "gay" but "queer".... Why there is the G from Gay and the Q from queer. The LGBTI+ has tried to distance themselves form the queer relations and history aspects. Pederastie and Pedofiel & Pedosexueel. While also still recognizing that sexual discovery, ripening and blossoming begins int the transition stage aka adolecence, puberty, teenage years. Adults should not have sexual relations with a minor, even age disparaties have become an issue in these woke days. But still Queer is the dominant push now days. I had to do my research about our community in the 90's and 2000's. I am born in 1980. It was part of my coming out proces. I was born and raised within the Latter Day Saints religion myself. Big NO on homosexuality. Has I lived in the USA I would have been put to conversion therapy camp in my teens, and having trouble hiding my real identity, a pansy. There is a lot of aspects of our history and culture, our oppressions and our fights for acceptance and appreciations that mostly in current days are no longer needed to discover in order to find our community, your self-identity and (self) acceptance. And in a way this is like being severed from your roots, we also have the Aids crisis/pandemic in part to blame for this. We lost great people through this. Lost their knowledge and experiences. Without roots no branches. If you understand how intersexual comes to be born that way.... it is a small step to understand how transgenders came to be... and a small step to understand how b & LG came to be; born that way. (for the most part/majority) All the other diversities are also minor steps now into understanding. In the process heterosexuality is also explained. Or you go the different way around in explaining heterosexuality you can also explain the sexual diversities. Falling in love, relationalship bondings, lust and sexual desire. But also consent, and bodily developments and functions. This was our success formula, in large parts. But, hey... this is just me saying this. What the hell do I know? I'm a Dutch nobody from Limbo-land, with no University degrees. I was COC memeber, I gave sexuele diversiteits inclusiviteits voorlichtingen at middelbare scholen, and other groups that wanted workshops etc. Like Catholic house wive groups. At the time I was part of that/our division (Limburg) which had the best results, and got emulated by the other COC's. Our used format and pre-course before giving voorlichtingen. The connection making to aspects of bullying also, and un-aliving numbers which often also had LGBTI+ bullying connections to them globally as well. And even for kids that where not LGBTI+ but bullied with being gay never the less. This latter approach also got adopted by the USA as a push back, and even got transfered to the trangender community and their mental suffering for not being able to be themselves. But Queer - in USA was interwoven with the Gay Pride. Gay pride got many interpretations, narrations over time. Gay was not "inclusive" enough as the opposite of the normative hetero... good to know. What began as PRIDE - Personal Rights In Defence and Education. Became more like literal Pride in the sense of many... being able to be proud to be yourself. Which is not wrong but can be over done. PERSONAL RIGHT in defence and EDUCATION. This education is also part of our defence. But rightwing USA followed the lead of Russia's 2013 "Anti-LGBTQ+ promotion" law(s). Rightwing USA is following many examples of Russia at the moment. Linda listen; if one is not strong, one needs to be smart. We inacted the gay marriage law on April 1st. People first where not sure if it was just going to be/being a Aprils fools day joke or not. It was not, but it took a while for many people to realize especially those with no affiliations towards the gay community. In 2001, we also had Kelly van der Veer in Big Brother, then 9/11 happened. Meta van Baak in GTST (goede tijden slechte tijden) 1997. This was national Dutch commercial TV. And now we are in 2024 with Geert Wilders, being anti-LGBTI+ inclusivity educations or mostly anti gender educations op basis school niveau, but also LGB is not needed in his regard. These are children. Don't mind the children that are born with a LGBTI+ family member. Think of the children, they won't understand if you explain it to them on their level of understanding. Sadly it doesn't work equally on adults already raised on hatred and phobia.
Thanks for sharing…how was “coming out” like for you? And how do you feel now and the future this topic in the country?
@@hidavidwen I don't agree and like the queer push, also in the Netherlands. I mean Amsterdam Pride could get replaced/rebranded with Queer Amsterdam... Why? Inclusivity, & represtation? Queer is getting more and more a common "label" in the NL as well. And I explained myself on this topic in the original post. Just how there is neurodiversity, there is Gender and Sexual diverisity. Better labels to use than "queer". So I see a connection with the sliding back, the introduction of that word, and the push of this re-branding. From LGBTI+ to Queer. Our history has had it ups and downs, gains can be lost very fast. Berlin was gay capital of Europe in 1920's and early 1930's then Nazi-ism happened. Russia was like Western Europe with LGBTI+ emancipations, then 2013 Law came into place. No LGBTQ+ promotions allowed. Being openly gay and out, could get you killed. Having kids as a gay couple could mean the kids got taken away from you. To me with project 2025, USA is heading of a cliff which could take the rest of the Western civilization with it. If Trump gets elected, he will pull out of NATO and Russia will have a more easy European target. These are the warnings that are already in existence. History has proven things can change with the snip of a finger.
Its all about how you tell your kids the world turns. For me ever sins my kids were young i told him that everybody is the same no matter who they love of were they come from or witch color people have. So i think its in our culture to do and act like that . There is no difference its all about love. That is important. I realy don't care witch prefrance people have, if i like you i like you
David, I just want to say thank you sooo much (again), for your videos of Camino. I did it last month and it was amazing.. ❤❤❤ #happypridemonth
Thanks Bayu and nice to hear from you! And even nicer to hear you enjoyed your camino!! I'm going back on the camino next week =) Buen camino and take care!
@@hidavidwen oh myyy.. thats so cool. I envy to every Europen and American citizen who able to travel the world with no visa worries. I hope to be able to come back next year 🔥🔥
I think the Netherlands is not necessarily tolerant, but many Dutch people don't care what others want to be. Just interview Dutch people with a migration background, specifically the Moroccan community, and you will get completely different answers.
Thanks for sharing, I think that would be an interesting perspective to learn more about
I think people with a religious background will give different answers; it doesn't have as much to do with a migration background. Non-religious Moroccans are as tolerant as non-religious Dutch.
I live in a small town on the countryside and the harassment by Moroccans occurs frequently, sadly to say. But there is also harassment by drunken Dutch teens and young adults. But also by the Enforcement Service (Dienst Handhaving) in recreational parks and beaches. I have seen it with my own eyes, where two men, sitting on a blanket, were kissing and they were told by the officers to stop, because there were children around. In my eyesight there were at least two other straight couples of which one was also kissing romantically and one woman was sunbathing topless (forbidden by a sign) and the man/friend was kissing and massaging the breasts. Only the two gay men were told to stop. I have seen something worse than that, two couples having sex at a recreational park, just before sunset, one heterosexual couple and one homosexual couple. The enforcement officers drove their car past the copulating heterosexual couple to the homosexual couple (one giving head to the other) to fine them for indecent behavior in public. I was having my take-from-home dinner in an almost empty field, sitting with my back to the couples, so didn’t see it at first, but turned when I heard and then saw an unmarked car approaching with high speed around the corner, stopping and two officers ran out to the gay couple. At the same time I saw both couples doing their business and the officers had driven right past the first (heterosexual) couple to approach the gay couple. I saw it all unfold before my eyes. I walked towards the officers and confronted the officers with the difference in treatment, they said they didn’t see the other couple (they were now sitting innocent and fully dressed at the picnic table they used a moment before in their voyeuristic act) and that I should not interfere with their task. Unbelievable, a straight lie by two officers of the government. That happens a lot, the different treatment, discrimination and harassment of gays by enforcement officers. Both couples were breaking the law, but only the gay couple, further away, was fined.
@@claudiavalentijn1457 From my perspective largely false. The Christians I know are largely accepting or at least tolerant to it if it's people outside of their family. For muslims the same cannot be said. Hostility or harasssment is quite frequent.
@@Woppettier not from my perspective.
I doubt whether further normalizing is the way forward, what's wrong with the abnormal? There is the regular and the exceptions, a gay couple is pretty regular, a lot of what is happening in the gay scene isn't nor does it need to be. There is night life extravaganza, there's sexual excess, I don't feel like normalizing that at all, just let it be it's abnormal self and let the normal be it's normal self. There's something narrow minded about wanting everything to be normal, just give the special a bit of room.
Thanks Lynott. I like what you said about recognizing the uniqueness of each individual...but accepting it. Well we are all humans...and different in our own ways too
@@hidavidwen Yes, and homosexual relationships are allowed to be different just as well as they are allowed to be similar. This normalization also leads to fake acceptance. Parents who have a homosexual son claiming it doesn't make any difference, imagining him walking hand in hand with another 15 year old boy. But a lot of young homosexual boys are very adventurous, promiscuous and experimenting than 15 year old girlfriends would allow them to be. And that's often not what parents had in mind. I have no idea how I would deal with that as a parent, but a lot of the normalization of 20-30 ago's was about assuming/pressuring homosexual couples to mimic the heterosexual relationships. That's partly accepting but not accepting the whole width of homosexual relations. I, as a heterosexual, moved on from that, it's got different ingredients and therefore a different dynamic. If you accept homosexuality you have to accept all of it and therefore also the promiscuity of a part of the gay community or a phase in a gay life. I don't have to consider that normal though, so I decided to accept abnormalcy too and came to believe normalization is not the highest goal. I'm not their judge or preacher, to be normal in my eyes is not their obligation and it's not my obligation to believe all they do is normal.
Thanks David -- great interviews.
Thanks John :) Have a great one
This redefining and/or misuse of certain words by younger generations often makes little sense and leads to more intra and extra group confusion and conflict. What exactly is “Queer” if it can be whatever a person wants it to be? What exactly are you trying to communicate to others by using that word in the first place? Something other than straight?
Thanks for sharing and educating me (us). Many definitions define 'queer' as something other than straight. What do you think are the right words or labels to identify group(s)?
@@hidavidwen It may be best to avoid catch-all terms, like “queer”, as they often require further explanations and context. Particularly when it comes to people who self-identify as “queer”, as they often end up being asked for additional explanations and descriptors so as not to come across as vague or confusing to others. With that in mind, it may be better to describe oneself, or one’s orientation(s), using long from language. Alternatively, a definition of “queer” could be preemptively shared with others first so that a mutual understanding is established. That way, any misunderstandings or offence can be kept to a minimum.
For me personally as a dutch born person and living in the south (maastricht) it sometimes feels very strange being LGBTQ+. On the one hand i know and feel people are very accepting 99.9% of the time. However on the other hand it feels that anti LGBTQ+ sounds are getting more prevalent and actions against LGBTQ+ people happens more. I do volunteerwork for a dutch queer organisation and over the past couple years i hear more and more people in our community having had bad experiences, from being called out on the street to pride flags being pulled from peoples windows. I personally have had multiple incidents where me and my boyfriend have been called slurs at night, even though we weren't even holding hands which just adds to this uneasy feeling on the street where there are only certain places where i actually feel safe enough to show some kind of affection towards him. Bascially me feeling scared to sometimes just even grab his hand in a restaurant to show my affection. A very positive thing here i feel like is that when it comes to opportunities in life you don't really get discriminated against anymore when you are queer. YOu still have the same opportunities with a job same as a straight person. What it comes down to for me is that legally your sexuality isnt much of a problem in life in the netherlands, but that socially there are still things happening that can make you feel pretty unsafe. I specificially say sexuality because different gender identities are a different story and from people within my community i know that the negativity they experience is a lot more than i do as cit white gay person.
Thanks very much for sharing your experience. Unfortunate to hear that some of the "hate" that you've experienced...but also very grateful that you are sharing this. I've also heard the same...that while people may tolerate LGBTQ+...there is still a long ways to go in terms of true acceptance in society. But I do hope that the situation NOW vs. 10 years ago...there has been positive changes in the community and in society
The incidents you described, it's not acceptable to curse people ofc, or hurt them. But it's perfectly normal to dislike believes and choices of other people, it's actually a psychological reality. We just should be respectful of each other if we need to interact in business or society. I think the reason some people get angry to the point of cursing out at LGBT is that many in LGBT community want and even demand others to understand and like their believes, choices. They talk about tolerance while not being tolerant. So many people who notice this, they will learn to pretend in society to accept, but at night when they can be more themselves they let out this frustration. I was born in eastern Europe, never have I thought people would curse out or hurt gay or trans, ever. The blow back you see from some countries like recently Georgia is not because people want to protest against LGBT, but because they are being demanded to like something that goes against their believes. Live and let live. Some LGBT people should be reminded of this.
@@GrandTerrNo, it's not normal to "dislike choices". Tolerance is not enough. We need acceptance.
nono here is where you go wrong in your thinking. Tolerance is given. Acceptance is earned to an extent. There are 2 Major factors that decrease acceptance in the netherlands. We have a culture that is very tolerant, but we are also a people that prefer people to be real as in don't ACT a certain way. We tolerate the weird behavior some LGBTQ+ people exibit, like putting thing on extra so to say, as to constantly emoting: I am special, I need attention, look at me how transsexual I am. Its just not chill, just act with some dignity and people will respect AND accept you for who you are. But this semi hostile approach creates friction, that is not even needed or helpful. And then there is the massive influx of religious conservative people coming from predominantly Islam countries/cultures. They have wildly different values than the Dutch, and are a proud people who stick to their own people and values. Hope this helps you understand the Dutch a bit better. And to an extent other peoples culture. You got to tolerate our culture too to get acceptance. The vast majority of the people living here don't give a fuck who you love, or what your sexual preferences are or are not. Like it doesn't even register if you just be you, people will accept you almost instantly (unless you are a jerk and hide it behind a gender identity or some shit). Needles to say getting shouted at on the streets is not done. But its likely done by stupid teenagers, and even more likely teenagers with an immigration background. @@idromano
I'm not trying to sound ignorant, but I need to learn. I'm not sure what "queer" means. Are they bisexual or gay? Can someone tell me with an example?
I’m also not the best person to ask but I found this… “Any identity that isn’t considered straight is queer” www.cosmopolitan.com/sex-love/a25243218/queer-meaning-definition/
Awesome interview 👍👍
Thanks Chris, hope all's well!
If a bell would go every time the brit says ' like ' , you'd feel in a church steeple on sunday mornings . Also, where in NL does she live, on Urk ??
Not the whole of The Netherlands is LGBTQ+ friendly, I would say mainly in Amsterdam(CENTRE) and Utrecht city, but the truth is that there are living alot of conservative people still and there is a very big bible belt community and muslims who are against it. so be careful. some parts are openminded but The Netherlands is not a Gay paradise at least not anymore lol.
Thanks for sharing this, let’s hope society (and the world) gets more accepting as we progress
like ur videos a lot
Thank you :)
Je bent in de war bro😂
Nice video in itself, but unfortunately, and maybe typically, you didn't talk to a trans person. And that's reflective of the general situation. We trans folk are allowed to exist, but that's about it, mostly. Me for instance, by coming out I lost almost all of my friends, and mind you, these folks are left wingers. Yes, transgender healthcare situation over here is top notch, and officially we have equal rights, but on a day to day basis it's different. In all it's no coincidence that our unemployment rates are significantly higher than amongst the general public.
Thanks for sharing and for highlighting this. There is still a lot of work to be done and awareness to be shared
Love
🙏
We still have a very nice little country ❤not perfect,but close maybe
Yes…a nice little country indeed! 🙏
tolerant yes but to a certain degree: a co worker of mine, her father dresses up but some places you just dont want to be since iots known for the people that live there have an issue with it and will bully or in worst cases beat you up. so in fairness it is ok but not everywhere, since people here that are religious tend to look down on these kind of things. yes its an ongoing battle but its not as bad as it is in the u.s at the moment with the whole bud light and other stores going woke. i get there has to be some acceptance but it shouldn't be shoved in your face. things like these will always take time but at least its good to strive for.
I've never lived outside of the NL so I obviously don't have the same experiences as the people who were interviewed. I think that a lot of dutch people may be okay with something on paper, or as a concept, but start to object when it comes close to them. This is when you learn that dutch people may seem tolerant and accepting on the surface but not as much in practice. I've heard this referred to as "but not in my back yard" mindset. For example an affluent neighborhood had plans to build a care home for people with down's syndrome. People were okay with it until they heard it was their street it was going to be in, then they suddenly had a problem with it. When it comes to acceptance of homosexuals it's quite the same for many people. They are accepting of gay people in general, but will have a problem with it when someone in their family is gay. There are also a lot of men in particular who have a problem with gay men, but not with gay women. My step dad is like that, generally a good guy but he thinks gay men are gross and hopes there won't be any in his family. My mom and him had a conversation about gay marriage and he was against, but when asked about gay women he admits he did not even think about it and then said he has no problem with it. I'm 38 (so a millennial as I understand it), and I generally think my generation is quite open minded but also pretty grounded. So it surprised me when a friend said you're not a lesbian if you've had a relationship with a man and you didn't hate the physical intimacy. She was not open to hearing a counter argument so I didn't tell her about comphet (a lesbian specific experience that occurs when lesbians are influenced by societal pressures into believing that they are or could be attracted to men. Can happen to gay men as well). I think "being repulsed by male genitalia" is quite an unrealistic diagnostic criteria for lesbianism 😂 In conclusion many dutch people are a lot more narrow minded than they appear on the surface. As for your annoyance with wokeness being shoved down everyone's throats in the US, that's mostly because companies are using thing like wokeness and LGBTQ+ themes as marketing tactics (and they do so aggressively). Things like the bud light thing, and another trans woman being woman of the year, and the absolute marketing madness that happens during pride month. Some of that is also happening in the NL. First of all, these companies don't really care. They only care about making money. Second of all this aggressive marketing will probably deter people from being more openminded. For example for people who were becoming more open minded, this might push them back into being less accepting/tolerant.
Thanks for sharing both. I've learned that there is definitely a difference between tolerance and acceptance...which shows in the fact that still a lot of LGBTQ+ don't feel comfortable "holding hands" in public due to potential harassment... "But not in my back yard"-yeah, I can see this too. There are always double standards like you've pointed out.
@@hidavidwen If you want to see dutch people being openly, unashamedly intolerant and proud of it, you'll have to ask people who wear alternative fashion what kind of reactions they get from people in their location. It's sometimes so extreme that people feel justified in physically trying to harm those who choose to not wear mainstream fashion. And if you ever complain about this or something similar the response is overwhelmingly "it's your own fault, just wear normal clothes".
@@itsalwayshalloweenexceptwh5118 Thanks for sharing. That could be another interesting perspective to hear and learn about. I can't imagine people physically harming others for the way they dress...but after taking a step back, I can...because there will always be different people with differing views and perspectives in the world we live in =/
Nice channel - I was hoping to colab with you, let me know if interested
Thanks for sharing and the kind words! I'm always open to hearing. If so, you can connect with me at hidavidwen@gmail.com and we can see Take care, David
I think this is more of a recent thing but i remember a time here in the netherlands where we just had a single pride parade in amsterdam instead of adopting the whole month of june as pride month from america. I don't care what kind of celebration it is but in my opinion no holiday should be celebrated for a whole month, thats overdoing it if you ask me.
Rainbow washing is also a huge issue. Groups who dont do anything to support queers will still market to them during pride.
Oh yeah I know what you mean, thanks for sharing
lol
#GayNotQueer
this country freaking sucks. i need to get out
i seriously am pissed off at your use of the offensive word "queer' to describe gays and lesbians. "Queer" is the word many of us grew up having thrown at us as a horrible and threatening insult. And if you're straight the fact you're using the word "queer' is even more annoying. STOP USING that word
Thanks for sharing your perspective. I hope you know it's not my intention. I also asked many of those interviewed what's the appropriate term to use and they mentioned queer is fine (for them). But I understand the history. What is the most inclusive, appropriate term to use?
Queer is a reclaimed word and is used throughout the community. Nothing wrong with it - unless used in an insulting manner.@@hidavidwen
what do you think the Q in lgbtq+ stands for?
He is from California, it's not offensive there
Me looking for a girlfriend: is a girl (optional)
As long as they are not being like vegans and being obnoxious about it , nobody cares.
Thanks for sharing your perspective
You are who you are, but we have all to bear our cross in one way or another. And what is done in the Netherlands goes too far. Companies embedding rainbow flags in their corporate logo, demanding basically every employee to comply. where is the freedom and tolerance in this? And if it would be only for adults, but why is it necessary to force children of at elementary schools to wave rainbow flags and get sex education about LGBTxxxxx as young as the age of 5. Netherlands is a tolerant country, people live their live for decades how they want it. This pride stuff is not about tolerance, its about demanding approval and it doesn't stop at homosexuality. Gender fluid etc etc. Why do you need me to play your game that two plus two equals five?
how does any of that affect you? And sex education is just of vital importance.
So when does it stop being about tolerance and become about demanding approval exactly? When no more LGTBQ+ people are being harassed, disowned, discriminated against, beaten, murdered purely for being a certain way? Because that shit is still happening. And what are these institutions forcing you to comply with? Treating everyone as an equal human being? Oh poor you, you must be so traumatized from all this stigmatization.
Big diffrenxe.. in the usa we have accepted queers or lgbtq ppl, they went over the line when tbey started putting pornographic images and descriptions in children books... do they also do that in other countries? Diffrenxe between accepting and allowing teachers to force their opinions down kids throat and teachers referring ur lids to doctors to get them on puberty blockers.... big diffrence
I don’t understand this narrative of ‘forcing it down children’s throats’. It’s not like the teachers are forcing them to be gay, they are just explaining different ways people are living their lives. The same way you would teach about different religions or different political/economic systems. Or is that not on the curriculum in the US? These examples might not be the best because religion or a political/economic system is a belief or choice whereas sexual identity is not. This makes the subject even more important to talk about so those few kids who don’t fit the hetero norm don’t feel abnormal.
I don’t see the connection here between porn in children’s books and lgbt…I don’t think there is porn in the childrens education system (I have some teacher friends and have an idea of what the curriculums are nowadays)…I think Anouk has a point, it may be about about showing different perspectives and cultures in the world that we live in today
Repent of your sins and turn to Jesus before it's too late! Everyone who ends up in hell has heard the Gospel of Jesus and the chance to repent and accept Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior. God wants you to enter his Kingdom. Life is temporary. Hell and heaven are not.
HAIL SATAN!
The based gays warned us these trans people will take over the rainbow 15 years ago. Guess they where right.
How exactly were they right and how exactly is it related to this video? It was literally never mentioned. Just sounds like youre trying to fearmonger for no reason lol
What are you babbling about? Go to HEMA and eat something.