MASSIVE SONY BANDING ISSUE or Photographer Error?
MASSIVE SONY BANDING ISSUE or Photographer Error? I took the Sony a9 out to a concert and quickly realized there was major banding under the LED lights when a faster shutter speed was used.
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Is this just an issue with the Sony a9 or does it show up in the Sony a7R III and Sony a7 III? Flickering
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Thumbs up for going into the real world and supplying RAW files for you guys to play with!!!
Jared Polin wow sir u are doing great job
Great
The way I understand it is EFC is really only supposed to be used when shooting mechanical shutter at slower shutter speeds I.e 1/100 - 1/200 to prevent shutter shock that can blur images.
it should be set to default.
I mean off.
It would be super beneficial to watch the video first before commenting about whatever it is you're going to comment about because I answer your concerns in the video already. Second, people keep saying, this is an LED light issue and it would happen with any camera. That's why I took the D5 back to the show and shot it at the same and higher shutter speeds as the Sony, and guess what, no banding. Moral of the story, watch the freaking video before commenting.
Thanks for including that they improved mechanical shutter on A7iii. Had me very curious as I am in the market for a new camera body.
Have you seen the flickering/jumpy looking footage from the a7iii ff 4k @24p & 1/50 shutter speed? All over forums, but not too many videos about it yet
Doesn't this camera have a "Anti flickering" shoot move? I'm not totally sure about this feature but i think It is suppose to detect the light source and desynchronize the scanning to avoid flickering/banding. I have that in my A7III but i have never tried it yet. Did you have the chance to try this out?
um, Rich, thanks.
look at TJ's comment. could you investigate this? thank you for the info.
The amount of information you share to your audience is impressive and I am honored to have found your channel and watch all the video's I can, Thanks and keep it up. Also really liking the 6 degree series.
Hey Jared! Very informative, just curious, did you have anti flicker on?
I’ll try to quickly summarize what went on here (I researched this bc I had a banding issue with my a7riii) Mirrorless cameras shooting in silent mode have issues with banding bc how they work is the sensor turns on line by line, and then turns off line by line to create an exposure in a given shutter speed. But LED lights flicker so that line by line readout creates banding. With a mechanical shutter w/ electronic front curtain shutter ON (the default), it still turns on the sensor line by line, but has a mechanical shutter to come across the sensor to end the shutter. Avoiding the line by line readout for ending the shutter decreases banding, but you still get banding from the initial line by line readout of the sensor. Mechanical shutter with EFCS OFF is essentially doing what DSLRs do. It brings a shutter in front of the sensor first, then removes to start the exposure, then the second shutter comes across the sensor to end the exposure. There is no line by line readouts happening here, which minimizes banding to the level of DSLRs. The reason why it’s so slow and sounds like it’s lagging (as Jared mentioned) is because one shutter starts hidden, then has to come across the sensor, then hide, then another shutter has to come across the shutter again, then hide. DSLRs essentially do exactly this but in a more efficient manner since the mirror/shutter position starts closed, whereas mirrorless cameras have to start in the open position, creating an extra step. Hope this made sense! Justin
I said I’ll quickly summarize but it became this huge essay lol
That was massively helpful in understanding EFCS. Thanks!
No problem! Glad I could help
I just got a ARiii and 80% of my work is concerts. I hope I don't get that problem. Thanks for telling me that fix .
How can I fix banding on a6500 in video mode? it is really annoying really .
Do you have any good tip on color banding filming with the GH5. Im struggling with the blue skies. I know i can shoot All-i or 4k 10bit to solve some of it but when i film Rc Air planes and helicopters i really wanna shoot in 4k 50p and that is just in 8bit. Thank you for all the great videos.😊
I love how the cat always wants to be in the videos, LOL.
haha I have to agree. @9:39 It's cute
Best. Photobombing. Ever.
Cat was trying to locate the moving hands of Jared so it can get petting.
Really appreciate this video! I get my A73 soon so it's good to know and be prepared. I'm surprised all the news sites aren't posting your videos.
Thanks for the info, Jared! 😊📸
I downloaded the app - just for kitty ...because I love the way kitty just seems to know when you're busy and comes to steal the show!
So how exactly is this issue with the a7iii? Jared mentioned it was improved with that model and I'm looking into getting one.
YASSSS. I have been searching the internet for days for an explanation to this! You are wonderful, sir.
Would auto-iso be a benefit in order to have control over shutter speed and aperture, then the iso would move up and down automatically to adjust for lighting changes?
Would the mechanical shutter of the a7iii or a7riii at 10 FPS fit the bill for this situation?
Lighting designer here! Would be good to know what lighting fixtures they are using, most fixtures now have a variable PWM frequency control which when set correctly will fix the issue. If your shooting there regularly it’s worth a chat with the venue to see if they can change the mode next time they have access to the rig.
thanks
Ian Scott I wish there was some kind of a mechanism for the camera to detect the flicker from pwm powered lights and compensate by choosing a shutter which is out of sync with the pwm frequency.
SidewindeR canon 5D mk4 has this feature - flicker reduction
Dom V. Please explain. Don’t we see bands of different color because the light source flickers during the exposure (emits different colors of light a few times per second)? The sensor scans data unevenly from the surface.
Gotta remember that lot of led fixtures comprise of multiple emitters ie RGB (some fixture have extra WALI+UV emitters) which all are operating at different duty cycles (depending on the preferred colour). Cameras flicker reduction would really only work on one frequency of flicker
Good information, what happened to the Fro ?
One question. If I use the Ar7 ii with a lightning trigger (for lightning photography) do you thing that I will get banding? I'm thinking about using f10 exp 1/10 iso 100. With the efcs (because it has the lowest shutter lag).
Great video. But I still don’t get it. How I need to turn the shutter speed to avoid banding?
Shot a concert on the weekend with the a7r ii. Had banding issues shooting at 1/250th w/ silent shutter off and e-front curtain on. Didn't see this video until after. Wonder if turning it off would have helped. I ended up switching back to my Canon during the show.
Does the banding issue you speak of also apply to video? Caleb Pike has noted banding in video.
Lol at 1:24 I shouted out loud by accident “holy crap!” About the banding when I saw it my wife was like “what! What is it what’s wrong!” Then got angry at me for wasting her time.... she doesn’t understand cameras....
ha
Thank you for sharing... As always amazing stuf
Is it possible to change the lighting to stop that? We have led lights. What type of lights can we use to eliminate the banding problem?
Another honest and thorough review. This was a very well balanced review of issues that others have mentioned. I like the way that you showed the issue and also made recommendations as to workarounds. Great work
@jaredpolin how you/I get access to shoot concerts and events? Who do you reach out to at these venues?
I like you're method of dealing with problems, really good lesson to us on how to exercise balance and reflect on things objectively and almost scientifically. Similar to that proposal shoot and how you deconstructed the issues you had there and how we can all learn from issues. It's so easy just to blame gear and move on without trying to understand and learn. Haha my gear vault 8/10 cats prefer it!
Your fro being tame really threw me off. :) Thanks for the video...my images all have banding from a theatre performance last night.
perm lookin fresh
Thx for this 👍🏾🙏🏾
I’ve had that problem at the Filmore too. I was shooting with a a7s.
I just shat my pants at the TWELVE voice
Same here.
Also the "BANDING" at 11:05
Same here 🤣
I like your color grading skills, all your videos look very pleasant on the eye.
Love the curls, dude! 😍❤️
What do you do if this is happening when taking videos?
Was there some strobes lighting the stage?
What about the striping that happens with the Sony alpha camera in heavily backlit situations? Have you had any experience with this?
yes, in this concert I had it on the first shot at higher shutter speeds.
Your hair is so amazing in this omg
Hey Jared Polin, I had yellow banding in my apartment showing in my A9 also. i also tested with two different lens and both mechanical and electronic , all ways showed the yellow banding. i use florescent tube to light my apartment. i sent it in a month ago for repairs they said there was nothing wrong they say only happens on certain rare occasions.
Could come down to the LED refresh rate in the venue and having a shutter that is catching those lines. Plus being in a concert venue, they could be a higher refresh rate. When we shoot any high-speed video we just stick to doubling the 60fps for our shutter rate to avoid flicker or in this case the banding. Worst part is that you rarely see the damage until you look at it on a bigger monitor / post-edit. I'd be curious to see a video where you test LED light with the Sony at different shutter speeds to get to the bottom of this. Any note, big fan of yours for years and keep it goin Jared!
Played with the A7 III at the free camera & lens day at our local Zoo. Never had anything beyond my T5i and point and shoot cameras. The A7 III was easy to use and super fun! Had it in manual and had no issues.
So when you first tested the A9 you had like a sub 5% banding rate what was the rate for the concert? Was it 100% at the faster feeds?
no wasn't 100% but with the faster shutter speeds there were issues as you could see.
Thanks for this video. Unfortunately I saw it too late. Fortunately I've seen it for the future.
Dig the hair and luv when Kitty comes in and reminds us to get with the GearVault. Thanks for letting us know about this btw, I like to know the limitations of my gear without finding out the hard way. Luv your videos Bro keep it up I appreciate your work and time.
I think it has to do with the rolling shutter effect. The way the sensor scans from top to bottom. It's an issue with the cmos sensors. When shooting anything moving fast, it's best to enable full mechanical shutters. Something new i have learned from moving over to mirrorless. It also picks up the banding issue with led lights.
Is there any way to salvage pictures that have the banding in post?
Well in this unique case I would say, "use the right tool for the job". All cameras have their weak points. But nice job in pointing out a serious issue that some of us may run into. Adjusting camera shutters to different light source refresh rates has been a serious matter for cinematographers from the first motion picture cameras. It's just something we have to recognize and adjust for. Sorry you found out the hard way :-)
Good to highlight this issue, it does focus the problems Sony have with this but also off camera flash in general, I've seen terrible results on an a shoot with an a7riii where cross lighting flash was being used and yet the issue wasn't apparent when the camera was changed to a D850.
What about using the d850 that has both types of shutters?
I wish I saw this video before today. Just shot a prom make up and hair prep and they were using one of those cheap LED ring lights. Using my A7Rii with 85mm and every shot in the room was showing banding. My outside shots and shots of her prom date were clean. I figured it was something with that ring light but could not figure it out. Glad I had my a77 ii with me and switched out so I didn't lose too many images they just won't be fullframe. I've been shooting all day today testing out my A7Rii and saw no issue so finally came here and bam!
Hahaha that "TWELVE" at 1:50 is brilliant 😂
You can reproduce this problem using flash with HSS, e-front curtain on. LED use high-frequency modulation to control brightness, which is similar to flash on HSS mode.
I have both a D5 and a A9.... Did a bridal shoot with three chandeliers in the background. Bride in front with veil dropping down. All three chandeliers were LED's... On the shots (taken at the fastest shutter speed) I was actually getting three different lights coming out of each chandelier. So for example left was completely out, center was half lit, and right was completely lit. Definitely an issue.
On D5 or A9?
what about video ? I have Sony a7iii and I got an orang horizontal line moving from up to down when I go up to160 shutter and I don't think this is silent shutter cuz its already off ! how I can fix this ?
bro I'm going to buy sony a7iii tomorrow.. please help me. nikon z6 or sony a7iii?
I think you will get with most camera if you are shooting that fast under all LED lighting especially if you are using the electronic shutter. As you mentioned LED lighting is designed to pulse many times a second and not just be a "always on" this is one way they offer more efficiency. Old incandescent light did also pulse as it is nearly always driven by AC but as it is a hot wire it never had enough time to get cold enough to dim noticeably. The other issue with these LED lights is they are also not just one colour with a gel in front but can make up lots of different colours by mixing different colours which is why your bands also will have a rainbow effect. Both of these issues are then more likely to be captured when you set your shutter speed so high. There may well be a chance that it is more likely to happen with Sony sensors but that is speculation as it may well have shown up if you had tried using your D5 in live view too.
Isn't front curtain, when it blitzes first and then records a bit extra light after that?
fast forward to 2022/12/29, I'm using Sony A7iv with 24mm GM to shoot Christmas light at night. and I got these crazy vertical banding issue. I thought the sensor is damaged somehow. I don't know what to do.... I have this issue in pictures that is ISO 1600, 1/400 sec, f1.4...
when will they have global shutters?
so that's what it is, i have the same problem with my A6300.. thanks Jared
Yo fro, isn't banding color related and the problem you're having called flicker?
Hey Jared! Love the videos. Keep doing what you're doing, so helpful to so many. Any plans on taking the A7 iii out to a concert for testing?
7:31 Great shot Jared 👌🏾👌🏾👌🏾💵
Good video Jared, its good to see your video is not like by a canon or nikon boy (btw I'm a canon user) but a good informative video to use our cameras batter... Love your videos keep going
Everyone keeps mentioning the "banding" with the D5 at the TV studio. That is not banding. That is the refresh rate of the TV screen and just how TVs operate. If you photograph a TV and your shutter speed is too high you will catch the TV refreshing the image and get a black (or dark) band across the TV but only on the TV. That band does not cover the entire frame.
Try again, LED lights use PWM dimming, they reduce output by switching the LED on and off at a high rate. Same concept as a TV, but at a higher rate. Also very similar to a screen, they combine different colored LEDs at different rates to create colors.
I find this problema with the a6400 of my friend because I am planning to move to the mirrorless world. I do have the canon 80D right now, and i shoot basketball in our town at night time, but sadly the gym uses big LED lights, and i think that's what causes the banding in the a6400. .However, when i shoot using the optical viewfinder of my 80D, i don't have the banding problem, but when i use the live view in shooting i mostly do have the banding problem. .and because the a6400 uses the EVF, even though i use the viewfinder, still got the banding problem. .and i certainly cannot use low shutter speed because i shoot at 1/800 to prevent from blurring the subject. .so does this mean, the a6400 or any mirrorless system is not gonna be good for what i do? .thank you if can respond.
I recently got the Canon r8 and had banding in my concert photography. Come to find out the R8 does not have a mechanical shutter. Looks like I have to scrap it and either get the R6ii or A7IV
This is a major problem, in my opinion. I was testing the sony a7 iii today, shooting a concert, where i needed to be silent and there was just spotlights on the stage. I realized after that all my images had dark banding across them. I also realized when I left the room to take more photos of the kids, there was banding all over it. I was using a canon 24-70 lens with a metabones adaptor. I never have this issue on my canon dslr.. so what's the point of silent shooting (which you would only likely use in this situation) if banding occurs?? A slow shutter speed in already low light isn't going to work out..?! How is this not a major issue for other pro photogs who have to shoot quietly at indoor events??
Did canon 1DX2 will have this problem too?
no
Where is the fro gone XD
Aum Patel - Maybe it's now going to be PermKnowsPhotos?
That is his hair. It is not a perm. He just watered it down
BedFro?
Soul glo fro
Not quite, but a bit like "Jheri Polin, Jheri Knows Photo dot com".
Sorry to ask this but... what is banding? it is a chromatic aberration or is just some issue with the colors of the image? (As u can notice, i'm a noob in photography)
I LOVE the CAT!!! Thank you for the video
Why do you need more than 5fps on a concert? Just wondering?
I love the Disco Biscuits! Cool that you got invited to shoot their concert. Rock on!
hey nice shots, the problem you are having is a CLASH of FREQUENCIES! im a video guy , and when i shoot LIVE events with multiple light source i instantly have my shutter around 50th/sec , more than likely i have to drop it to 25th, 30th, or 40th sec to eliminate banding in the image. its just a case of the lights running at a different frequency to your shutter with multiple LED lights running at different frequencies it would be almost impossible to NOT have banding at higher shutter speeds. lots of LIVE concert videos you will see on TV usually will shoot at very slow shutter speeds with that motion blur artifact to avoid banding. have you tried maybe going down the dual iso process ? NOT shooting with dual iso....but taking 2 of your pics and blending them together...like HDR photography. maybe the banded area in pic 1 will be filled in with NON banded area from pic 2, ive never tried it but it might work and you can still keep you crispy high shutter speeds. stu.
We've got to do something about banding and e-shutter. So many indoor venues, including my house, have LED lights, and that's the time I'm most likely to want it (church, wedding, candid).
Hmm, looks similar to flash sync issues when shooting with flash/ strobes. That would explain why the appearance of banding is affected by the shutter speed..... LED flicker frequency?
Super hilarious dubbing "[12] frames a second in uncompressed raw" at 1:50 of this video to correct a fact blooper lmao. Seriously a good video
Interesting and thoughtful video. Well Done.
I love Todrick Hall! Also great video ^.^
As someone that primarily shoots music, I understood the limitations of an electronic shutter going in to the A9. The 90% of the time that I am free to shoot with the electronic shutter versus making a compromise in shutter speed or going to the mechanical shutter, makes the A9 worth the price of admission. I was going from primarily shooting with a Df, so the mechanical shutter is on par. That said, I would love for a firmware update to land with refresh rate scanning and either a warning or image processing to eliminate or diminish refresh rate variations.
Jared, it's definitely a combination of the a9 and the LED lighting. In fact, it's a direct indication of just how fast the newer sensors (on ANY brand camera) are scanning in our images. The a9 sensor scan time is so GOOD that it's revealing how BAD, LED lighting is. The lights are turning on and off rapidly and you're literally catching it in action. This is why the banding you see is running parallel to the vertical orientation of the photos, as the image is scanned from top to bottom. I believe we are going to see this LED issue more and more with faster sensor scan capabilities across the board. No matter the brand. I've been seeing it on my Canon's for years.
Will this really makes things clear to me. I need to go out and get a black and white cat.
Obviously! Any cat will do, actually.
I don't own a SONY, just clicked on the video to see what happened with the Fro.
Awesome video.
I shoot with 5dmk3 and 5Dmk4. I had the same issue at a wedding - the venue had candle shaped LED with long filaments - they flicked like crazy at shutter speeds higher than 1/100. This was BAD. One camera was set up to shoot with flashes and had no issues while the MK3 was set to work with available light and these bands drove me crazy. I tried raising the shutter to 1/125, 1/160, 1/200, 1/250, 1/320,1/400 still the same. The mk4 has flicker detection mode.
Two thumbs up! Great video. I hope Nikon comes out with Pro body mirrorless camera that can use the F mount lenses soon! Cool cat!
For what it's worth, I like the hair. Thanks for the info too!
That WELL!!! shook me!
If the A9 had the mechanical shutter of the A7III or RIII，you would have zero complaint, right?
Were you using silent shutter? That's what would cause this to happen when shooting into those kind of lights since they have a specific frequency.
answered in the video.
I have had flick problems in the silent photos with my a7R III, in the normal shooting mode there are no problems, I can send you some RAW
This is a well made an informative video. On an unrelated note though, I think Jared would look better with a haircut. I get that it is part of his brand now and I saw that sad video about him and his mom, but if it were me I'd cut it at this point. Keep doing what you are doing though man and I really enjoy the content!
I am jared, please comment as if I am reading this and am a human being.
Heads Up!!!! A7r III will still get banding when shooting with high speed sync over 1/3200. Shut off electronic curtain and can go up to 1/8000.
So there is no fix to this? I got the Sony a7iii and that’s disappointing.
Now this is a real world review. So the A9 is more wedding photographers tool than a sports or concert camera. The eye af is really cool.
The D850 has banding too in the silent shooting mode with LED lights. I can even see it in liveview in my own living room. No problem with old tungsten lightbulbs at all.
the d850 is a joke when it comes to silent mode.
Good channel, love you hair do. What has happened now? It looked flat? 🙄📷
What happened to the fro hair?
Lmao the voice over voice... What did you say besides banding? Also with you saying the A7iii eye af better then the A9, I think you're going to have to do a comparison test now..
Jared- big fan. Would love to see more BTS and tutorials from you, like the typewriter BTS shoot. Not a fan of all the spec videos you do. Keep up the good work and thanks!