Gas Forges for Knife Making - Everything You Need to Know!
2024 ж. 14 Мам.
130 560 Рет қаралды
Propane forges are popular with blade smiths for forging knives and swords. In this video knife maker Walter Sorrells discusses the ins and outs of gas forges. If you've ever wanted to make or buy a gas forge, this will tell you everything you need to know.
More at:
Tactix Armory: www.tactixarmory.com
Sword making videos: www.waltersorrellsblades.com
Walter's Instagram: walterstactix
Tactix Armory Instagram: tactixarmory
Twitter: @WalterSorrells
Facebook: / waltersorrellsblades
Patreon: / waltersorrells
Fantastic information! Exactly what I was needing, thank you!
I love watching your videos. Always very informative!
Liked like always! :) You and simplelittlelife have been a big inspiration to me
Another quality helpful video, thanks Walter
Only thing missing: Propane usage. How long does a 20 lb tank last? How many knives can you make with one tank? etc. etc. Thanks for posting!
How long one tank last depends on what you use it for. If you do alot of forge welding then one tank wont last as long as if you just forge.
I hate to be the nerd but it's a volumetric equation to determine the amount of time usage per tank. I'll spare the details but essentially a single burner at 8 psi will go through a 5gal tank with about 8 hrs of continuous use. Which means the question becomes how many heats can you get in that time? Propane is more efficient at keeping heat and transferring it to the metal so you'll get more heats per hour from propane than coal or charcoal. After that the question becomes, how skilled are you at moving hot metal? A pro is going to do more with one heat than a novice can. Which means the second part of your question can only be answered by you. Hope that helps 🤣
This is the best gas forge video I've seen. Thank you.
Bub u have told me more in this one video then I have learned in the ton of videos I have watched about what stuff to use in making forges and what's the best way on what u are making and what to use for liners wish this vid was up a few month's ago. Thanks bub keep up the great vids
Very nice summery. I'm planning to build one for toolmaking in the near future, so excelent timing. Thanks Walter.
Terrific video Walter - one of your best I have seen. Should be a big help to the community. So, thanks for sharing; Booyah!
Thanks for the great info and for your time!!
Fantastic video as always, thanks.
Thanks for the overview
You make great videos, good quality
Hey Walter, you're awesome! Love your videos.
great video...thanks Walter
I would really like a video on how to avoid warps and lateral curbaratures on the heat treatment. Great one by the way
I'll most likely make one with my brother in law over this summer. Looking foward to it.
when warning about the use of the dangers of propane you failed to mention; when propane leaks it acts somewhat like water. So when it leaks it lies low to the ground and builds up, unlike natural gas that can be detected quickly . always store it outside and run a fuel line from the outside if you can. As an retired pipefitter and inspector I have seen a number of fires caused by a build up of lp gas. A good idea is to have a vent close to the floor so if there is a leak it will flow to the outside, another mistake is not shutting off at the tank. if shut off at the forge and a fire starts and melts the hose, now you have a propane tank feeding the fire.
Nice video
Great video. Any chance you could talk about ribbon burners vs normal jet pipe nozzles?
"If you're hesitating about making a forge, don't worry. It's not that hard. Secondly, a single tank of propane can blow up your entire neighborhood..." Thanks, Walter
Really good video, make more gas forges people!
Walter ya kill me when you say your forge "looks like ass but it works fine." Love your videos, thanks for the help you give us!
Exactly I'm 54 years old and started out helping my grandfather about 46 years ago building knives I have even used a good camp fire for forging a knife before it did perfectly fine I have made many that way before I had a forge
Love your videos will donate some money
Thanks for another great video Walter. I’m wondering if you have experience with or could comment on use of a ribbon burner - specifically as it applies to knifemaking & Damascus/pattern welded steel?
I was hoping he would cover ribbon burners too. Hope he does at some time
It just distributes the heat more evenly than 1 or 2 burners so you can heat pieces better in an equal temp, for the rest its just the same as a normal burner.
I made my 1st forge. It was small but got me through what I needed it to do... It was a coffee can, lines with plaster of Paris/Florida sand mix and a map gas can with the Home Depot trigger kit. It worked well and was really cheap! I made some decent knives and was able to sell some for more than the cost of the steel... then I used the money I made from using that to buy one from NC Tool. Money well spent! Making one yourself to start is great, but soon as you can buy a good manufactured forge you'll step that game up tremendously!
Pete's Creative Recycling until you need to change refractory. Then you realise it's a tin can with refractory in it.
@@dylanzrim1011 yeah... but by that time I made enough money for a real forge. If I didn't, I would have just made another one. I used it for a whole year and it's still good and works fine years later. Really, you should outgrow the thing before you wear it out.
Did you forge the knives you made? Or did you just use it to heat treat? I'm considering building a forge similar to the one you described but I wasn't too be able to forge in it.
Nice video. Do you have an opinion on induction type forges and their potential use in knife making?
elindred mostly heat treat/temper. Rather slow, and not very precise for other work.
I’m using a 12”ID 1/2”wall piece of steel pipe about 18” long for mine and I’m going with ceramic fiber batting and refractory cement coating with firebrick floor... no rear opening... I plan on using 2 layers with maybe 1/2 of refractory cement, which will make about 7 inch opening, is this too large of a volume for 1 burner?? Should I use a third layer of fiber and close it down to 5” I want to move I to hammer and axe making and wanted to upsize but I’m worried about efficiency...I’ll have the ability to firebrick the front down and reduce and I don’t think the face of my axes will be larger than 5” anyway...
Hey Walter Great informative video. I built a square forge for my son to get started in knife making and I built the Ron Reil style burners. But we can’t seem to get the tempature up to a good forging state. Can you tell me how to adjust the burners/ what to look for in the flame and what the internal temp. Should be?
What are you using for insulation? Round forges in generally are a little easier to construct. Here is a burner I made.. there is some good footage of it burning away: kzhead.info/sun/hqWJaLygppF_aa8/bejne.html
Made mine from a helium cylinder (for balloons) lined with insulating wool coated in refractory cement. Used bolts as legs (mounted horizontally), and cut the top end off and put it back on with a hinge as a door. Got a burner from ebay as making one was probably a bit beyond my capability. Works great and the only cost was the insulation / refractory / burner.
exactly what I am doing now. how did it work for you? still using it? any tips?
One thing I did was tie paper ribbon every few inches on the gas line, nearest to the burner. If it was hot enough to burn paper in that spot, it was a good early warning sign that the configuration needed to be adjusted.
I think a more important role for a thermocouple is to cut off the gas if the heat drops. These are standard in commercial gas cooking equipment (pizza ovens, fryers, etc). You need to hold an override button down to open the gas on your pilot until the thermocouple heats up and keeps the valve open, then you start the oven. The pilot should stay in all the time but I've seen them blow out from stupid reasons. Leave one of these running all night and trying to light something the next day would be disastrous. Putting something like that in line in your forced air propane forge would cause the propane to cut off shortly after the power went out resulting in the flame going out.
Great video, a perfect forge is someone else's on KZhead aha
Great video Walter. Any thoughts on high heat paint for a forge? Will it survive in/outside surface temps and slow corrosion? Or just a waste of paint?
I've heard ITC 213ht is one of the best coatings for the metal or painted metal. May be something you could check out. Best of luck and blessed days, Crawford out
2:30 that carbon monoxide warning was perfect 👌
Lol
Another option to solve the forced air issue when the power is cut off, is to salvage a propane burner from a gas dryer and use the electric switch already attached which shuts off the propane when power is cut off.
what about a steel trash can the older ones you used to see in parks and other public areas would it work
Is Venturi the same as atmospheric?
My single burner soft fire brick forge comes up to temp in about 2- 3 minutes which is good enough for me. Than again it’s a 216 cubic inch forge so fairly small with a decent sized forced air burner haha
I actually don't think I could make one. I can do all that DIY stuff no problem, but the only place I have to work with would be a tiny basement room. It does have two small slit windows at the top, but you can't open them, only tilt them a bit. Another issue is that the basement has no electricity net. There's effectively no way to create a strong airflow, and that means there's danger in respects to carbon monoxide. I could probably get a battery powered construction site fan and wedge it up there, but even that wouldn't be enough to fully exchange the air in the room fast. Would a Respirator help? Is there any other way to deal with cabon monoxide?
Nice hair cut.👍
How long does the koawool inso last?
What about ribbon burners? Where do those fall?
This is three years old but I see a lot of cast-able refractory’s. I am getting one that is insulating and up to 3000 degrees. My question is it claims to be flux resistant is that a claim or could it be true it’s 94% alumina. Is that what prevents flux from eating it?
What would be your recommendation for a propane forge if heat treatment is the primary use?
Check out the Atlas mini-forge... The thing is a beast and perfect for knifemaking.
Any recommendations on suppliers for burners, and insulation that you like/prefer?
Larry Zoleller (zoellerforge.com/), has a lot of designs and sells his stuff. if you have a local furnace/firebrick place you can get kaowool (ceramic fire blanket), or you can order off of ebay/amazon. There's a new fire blanket out that you don't have to coat, can't remember what it's called, but it doesn't metastasize in your lungs, and costs about the same as kaowool. You can make your own refractory cement - water down furnace cement (available at Menard's, Tractor Supply, and most places that sell furnace duct) to the consistency of plaster of Paris and combine with Perlite (not vermiculite).
Can also look up on YT burners that are assembled out of black iron pipe fittings and use a specific MIG welding gun contact tip for the gas orifice. No welding even needed I think.
Walter what is your opinion on the forges form Devil Forge? I am walking on the fence of buying a forge or making one.
If you haven't bought one yet... check out the Atlas mini forge! That thing is a great value.
Any DIY guys are out there doing a forced air propane forge Use an electric gas oven regulator for gas safty, should be easy enough to find one on the side of the road or a backyard somewhere.
Hey Walter, I noticed you mentioned that the ceramic fiber isn’t healthy to breath in and looking around many people seem to be saying that you need to coat the ceramic fiber with a refractory cement? Is this necessary, or just overkill in your opinion? Thanks for the information!
Fairly old post but for the sake of others you can buy a ridgidizer spray which you use during the build. I have the materials but not got round to the build yet....
This.
I have a wool type insulation for my propane forge. Do you have to coat the insulation with a rigidizer or no?
If you don't, you'll probably be breathing microscopic ceramic particles as it gradually breaks off during use, which is very bad for your lungs. Also the lining won't last as long.
If you mix refectory cement a thin layer is enough to keep the hot flowing gas off the wool. If you don't seal it, wear a respirator. Probably should wear one either way, but definitely if you don't seal your ceramic wool. Those fibers do the exact same thing asbestos does in your lungs and permanently damage your lungs and can give you all sorts of cancer over the years.
fire brick breaks down and crumbles at repeated firings. get a kiln shelf for your floor, it will take more abuse and can withstand flux damage better.
I have a ferrier forge, 2 burner venturi. Good to go? Or make a new one?
Farrier ... as in Horseshoes and Trimming for equine industry... I knew you knew. Right ?
I'd say good to go start messing around. I think the major limitation is having to open the forge from the side with a ferrier forge? And losing some heat in the process.
In a vertically-oriented forge, what supports the workpiece? Isn't it above the bottom of the forge?
No, you'd still use fire brick for the floor bringing it up to the front opening. He's just saying in the vertical forge the floor brick is easier to replace.
Do I need a fuel rich or oxygen rich flame I assume slightly fuel rich to minimize scale build up Also how much gas do these burners use
What do you use to seal the ceramic wool for safety
Satanite Refractory Mortar, it make a paste that you kinda slather on, then you gota dry it out into the candy shell :)
jeffrey barnes-allan ridigizer
Is 200 psi gas a usable Since I know 20 is just fine 50 would be ok but 200 may just use to too much gas too fast
So why is it forges have two openings but then when you see someone making knives they block up the back side? Why not just build it with one opening if you're going to block the back end up anyway?
If you have 2 openings, then you can make things that are longer than the chamber; if you make something that isn't longer than the chamber, you can block the other side so it retains heat better.
Any specific ratings for the gas pressure ?
At least 0 to 30 psi.
That would be dependent upon the temperature requirements for the work based on burner construction and position and if its venturi style or forced air whether direct applications or ribbon burner style. Venturi style seem to operate from 12 to 25psi from what I've read. Direct forces air seem to operate from 5 to 10psi. Ribbon burners seem to operate from 2 to 8 psi from what I've learned. Of course these are generalizations of what I've learned and do very widely dependent on the forge shape construction and materials plus altitude one operates and the ambient temps during operation. All of these things are subjective and I'm pretty sure that's why nobody gives like exact settings, however I think these generalizations can be as useful as starting points. Best of luck and blessed days sirSir, Crawford out
I run my venturi @ 3-5 psi and my forced air burner @ 0.5psi +
Question for everybody interested in forges: I used an old fire extinguisher, cut open one side , put a tube in it, filled the sides up with concrete and removed the tube when the concrete was hardened. So far it seems to work fine but does somebody know why it might be dumb to use concrete?
Guido Ooms I've always heard that without water glass to like, seal the concrete and give a heat resistant binding agent to hold the concrete together under the high heat of a forge. without this taken into consideration, the concrete will tend to crumble and breakdown sooner and thus need replacement sooner. I've also heard of using like perlite in the concrete mixture not so much to stretch it out, but to add air pockets and increase its refractory ability. since air is a very good insulator.
Thank you for your reply. The crumbling makes sense... I might have some water glass here so I will just soak the inside with it and see what happens.
I am in the middle of my forge now. Need to build the burner, was doing a forced air ribbon burner.
Hey walter try making sworss from different backgrounds
How well does natural gas work for forging?
Someone may have more known factors and true numbers than I. That said the btu's from natural gas are to some extent lower than that of propane. As such it is necessary to use more natural gas to produce the same temperature in a forge/ foundry. I guess the basic answer is yes qualified by it will take more natural gas to produce the same results. Blast of luck and blessed days sirSir, Crawford out
I've considered tapping into my natural gas line in order to do a similar situation. though I have no own doubts and concerns about messing around with the already older gas plumbing in this old house. plus it's a rental....
@@johnnymartin2970 , thanks brother. I had forgotten about the low line pressure for household natural gas. Great catch there sirSir awesome that someone else can pick up the game and share info. Blessed days sirSir, Crawford out
Doug says It Will KEAL I didn’t know a build up of LP gas blowing up would Keep Everyone ALive which is what his keal mean so umm ya
the ceramist in me screams every time he pronounces kao Kay-OH
I made my forge about about a year ago and it works grate. It easily gets up to forge welding temperatures here’s what it looks like ironwolfengineering.co.uk/projects/#/propane-forge/
nice little write up. good job.
Hmm...I may decide to buy a commercial forge, to avoid burning down my house.
"It will kEaL" 😆
Pyrotechnician here - no, you're not going to blow up your entire neighborhood with a single propane tank, something like that would require some very specific circumstances. Propane becomes explosive in concentrations between ~2-9% gas to air ratio, so you'd need a building big enough to empty an entire tank in, and reach the sweet spot where the gas becomes explosive. I'm not saying you shouldn't be aware of leaks, even a small gas explosion can easily ruin your day, but you won't flatten your entire neighborhood if something goes wrong, although your closest neighbors might need new windows. Other than that, good video.
Pyro I have been to propane BLEVE scenes A one pound single use propane tank Bleve will move a house off its foundations a house full of propane the explodes with reduce the fire house to kindling and there will be structural members (studs) penetrating exterior walls as far as 100 meters from ground zero. Been there seen that so there is no question retired firefighter. Now having stated that I will state if proper precautions such as using only in a well ventilated shop and avoiding any possibility of direct heat transfer from the forge to the wall of the propane cylinder supplying the propane to the forge's burners. Then there is little that can go wrong especially if the burners are first test fired outside and the forge is fire and gets its first heat outside. Now the forge working area needs to be a safe distance from anything flammable a good rule of thumb if you can hold your hand next to the closest flammable object and you cannot hold it there for any length of time without discomfort is to close. Any type fuel container should be kept outside of the forges working area in a separate room at the very least. This is not to criticize only to offer some helpful advice.
@@retiredarthritic2083 Well, if you for some reason end up with a BLEVE situation, you should have noticed something was wrong long before you got to that point, for example, that your house was ablaze or that someone had placed your gas tank in your lit forge. You know, you don't go from gas being kept in a perfectly safe manner, to BLEVE. Hopefully, no one is dumb enough to store their gas where it can reach a critical temperature. Again, I'm not saying gas can't be dangerous, we all know it can, but I've seen what it takes to blow up an entire neighborhood, in a very literal sense of the expression, because that's exactly what happened where I live, several years ago. You probably already heard of the disaster, but in case you haven't there's a bit in English here: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seest_fireworks_disaster That is what I think of when someone says "blowing up the neighborhood", I don't consider a gas canister like the one shown @ 2:08 to be even remotely capable of "blowing up the neighborhood", simply because it isn't. And don't worry, I didn't take your comment as a critique, obviously we both have a certain level of education and experience in this field, although from two totally opposite sides. I did learn a bit about firefighting though when I got my pyro license, I passed my exam at the same training facility our firefighters use for some of their training, and was surprised when I talked to one of them and learned that they weren't taught anything about how to handle fire in pyrotechnical compounds - the trick is to evacuate, you can't suffocate it, you can't cool it fast enough, and you can't separate the fuel. From a pyrotechnician's standpoint, something as simple as black powder must be the firefighter's worst nightmare - it'll happily burn under water, and provided the temperature is high enough it'll just as happily ignite all at once without an open flame, despite being one of the safest compounds we work with. But I digress. Yes, obviously one should always make sure one is working in a safe environment, or "as safe as possible" in our cases, being a firefighter or a pyrotechnician comes with some inherent risks, I've had my close calls, though not through any fault of my own. But I think people, in general, would be fine when setting up a gas forge, as long as they just employ common sense, and make sure they don't have a gas leak, that's what I'd worry about the most, and I'm currently in the process of setting up a gas forge.
Walter you must of done a large production run of tactix armory blades and ran out of arm hair and used your hair on your head for testing..
KEAL not KILL
"If you're hesitating about building a forge, don't worry its not that hard. Second point: a single can of propane can blow up your entire neighborhood." -Walter Sorrels, 2019
Lets be clear, one little tank will not blow up your neighborhood. Just your house! Lol
Hair or no.... pick one.
how exactly do you sponsor your own show? that makes no sense.
By someone saying hey, I love this guys work but I really don't have the time, patients or skills to make my own. Maybe I'll just buy one of his knives. Advertising is always good.
Mucho bla bla y poco que ver
their is never a 'Everything You Need to Know', learning is a continuous process...
Gary Rose truer words have never been spoken there is not a day that goes buy where one cannot learn something new.
'A single tank of gas can blow up your entire neighbourhood' ... Not if you're living in Germany ^^