WHY Personal Airplanes Are So Expensive
2024 ж. 13 Мам.
13 113 Рет қаралды
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I bet you've seen the new prices on GA Planes and it's got you screaming. Once upon a time you could buy a brand new cessna 172 fro a mere $10,000 brand new, delivered. Today that same aircraft will cost you at least $400,000. And that is just the starting price.
Newer entry level aircraft like light sport aircraft also has gotten quite expensive with prices now ranging from $30,000 - $400,000 Yikes! well why do we have such a hike airplane prices? for several reasons:
- Litigation
- cost of certification
- cost of parts
- availability of parts and personel
Used airplanes for sale www.aeroavion.com
My family owned a 1974 Piper Warrior. We bought it in the early 90's for about 29K and it had 2k Hours. That same airplane was recently purchased for 100K yet is hasn't been annualled or flown in 4 years, it now has 6k hours... My dad was a mechanic and my mom was a waitress. In the early 90's we would fly an hour to go get a burger and then fly home... on a school night. Yes it was expensive for my parents combined income of 70-80k, but it was doable for "the common man." Nowadays not even a dentist can afford to be killed in a 1975 Bonanza.
Good video! I love your discussions. The create great comments and perspectives from a wide range of people. Keep up the great work!!
Maybe add a qualifier "turn key". Just like trucks, I can find any number of "project" vehicles out there cheaply, just depends on how much you want to spend to make it usable or go all in for a full restoration with or without mods/upgrades... Just sayin 😊
Mike ATL guy here; 2 things. 1. What's the address/phone to your ATL location? I'm VERY interested. 2. Would you consider speaking on costs associated with learning and owning an aircraft such as a Sling? The second part of that is: would it be a true statement that the good news is due to the reduced cost to acquire and far lower maintenance costs due to the rotax? If so, that could really be a big deal in the positive direction for new potential pilots and owners. Am I wrong in theorizing that? I realized you covered your Sling extensively. However in doing very thorough shopping for both training and acquisition of a Sling for myself, the numbers i have run as a corporate hack, seem to indicate aircraft such as Sling and others, can change the landscape. And likely will if continued growth in that segment occurs.
The value of the dollar has declined significantly.
More importantly, real compensation has declined significantly. Used to be you could be a highschool dropout with 5 kids, a 2 story home in the suburbs, and two cars, all on one salary. Thanks capitalism!
My salary has tripled in California over the last 8 years, but I feel poorer.
that's true, that being said, it's still safer to keep wealth in real assets, like real estates, like planes, like gold, like guns and ammos, rather than keeping cash in the bank or a safe at home
Pretty much 10x the cost because of real inflation then another 4x because insurance.
@@obstinatejack😂
Great video Mike.
In 1970 a Mooney ranger cost 15,000 dollars minus radios
15k is what my parents paid for their 2500SQ home in 1970 in Southern California that same home sold for 1.9M last year.
In my teens in the early 70's I was intrigued with ✈aviation and nearly went for pilot training. Back then things were a lot different, for one the skies were less crowded, runway markings and rules were simpler etc. Here in New Zealand, general aviation is prohibitevely expensive, just putting up a plane in the air will set you hundreds to thousands in money. But its not all 🪂gloom, for powered flight, the microlight segment is still affordable for most enthusiasts.🛫
I finally got in a couple years ago. Since then not only have aircraft values gone up significantly but interest rates on loans have nearly doubled. If I hadn't gotten in back then I wouldn't be able to be an owner now. As the number of new pilots is still increasing rapidly I don't see demand going down so this pricing trend is likely to continue. The advice in this video is valid. As for the high loan interest right now, consider that in a year or two the rates are likely to go lower and you can refinance. By then you will have more hours and the value of the aircraft will have increased which will make it easier for you to refinance. Like real estate, you will need to maintain your asset and this will have a continuing cost. Don't go cheap on inspections and maintenance; aviation is not the place to do that if you want safety.
Rates are likely to go lower but I'd bet $1000 that they're not going back to what they were in our lifetime. Everyone is looking at rates going back to 2000 but historical rates are not far from where they are now. We'll see.
Doing great job , like channel
Another factor in the costs rising is a lot of these older certified airframes are being used by schools or as time builders for people trying to fill the airline pilot shortages. Even the newer planes like the diamonds have been hitting their max airframe times at a couple of these big fast track flight schools so you’re essentially left with a plane that has used its entire useful life span of hours in under a decade. Supply and demand is getting worse not better as we go and I think you’re on the money about the market never correcting to go back to what it was just a few years ago. Even if it drops off it won’t be significant enough to wait for it. Forwarding this video to my wife as part of my “let me buy a plane now” playlist. 🎉😂
I didn’t think there was a limit on diamond airframes?
You are absolutely right, the price is usually going up!
The average family income in the US in the 60's was between $3.000 and $6.000 per year. So a new airplane would be 2 to 4 years of income. So yes airplanes got more expensive, but not that much if inflation is taken into account. But I agree spending several years of (average) income is impossible for most families. As a builder however I saw that it is possible to build your airplane with less money, problem is to keep it flying, because of the insurance and fees (in the Netherlands we have several additional fees). Things will get worse when the tree-hugers are going to target GA. Electorally pilots are insignificant, easy to sacrifice on the alter of whatever they think of next.
Why have they gotten so expensive? Because the people who can afford it are still paying for it.
The problem with the real estate analogy is that the variable cost and inspection most aircraft owners lose money
Major issue is inflation last 3 years prior to 2020 flying 150 could be gotten for 17k some even 12k if it had bad paint didn't mind torn up seats. Now they go for 50k with 200 hours left on the engine. Social Media has brought in lot more people to GA more buyers then sellers.
What’s the standard cost for a Lycoming o-540?
For the exact same reason other assets (real estate, stocks, collectables, etc) have skyrocketed: money printing. It has nothing to do with spare parts, insurance, flying license and whatnot. It is just ole school currency devaluation through irresponsible money printing.
Has there been any update with the MOSAIC changes? I know there was some discussion about that helping with cost.
Update coming in 3 months or so. But MOSAIC looks promising. That said, it’s likely not going to help with the cost of new aircraft. Is the TL sparker I reviewed recently. $420k as shown
I don't think prices will crash but there will be an adjustment or downward trend at some point. Costs for EVERYTHING are going up and discretionary income is shrinking. At some point, many people who normally can find a way to "make it work" will just bow out and say its not worth it financially. Perhaps leasing companies will thrive in that kind of market...time will tell I guess.
Yeah, even modern cars have much more better technology than your regular Cessna 172 yet they cost a fraction of the price. Go figure.
Yeah, good question
I’m living in America for 10 years I’m almost flying for my than 15 and my question is why the same decent piper Cherokee or Cessna 172 like five years ago cost like $30-$50,000 and now it’s cost like 80-100 plus same Airplane, why tremendously rise in last past three years
Everything doubled overnight, but income's stayed flat.
Powered gliders with folding detachable wings for garage storage.
I have seen planes depreciate, this is specially prevalent to jets. It sometimes also happens with piston planes like jabiru for example, by all means its a fantastic reliable and easy to fly plane but they always sell for under purchase price once they enter the used market, i have seen some sport cruisers go the same route. However, this could be temporary..maybe they will shoot back up in value as years go by.
A great narrative and very informative 👏
Why did you sell the sling? Is there any better value than a TSI?
I needed to raise funds for my flight school. Also it was time to graduate from the TSi
@@mojogrip I’m excited to see what’s next.
Mojo Mike You posted some videos about how you can buy an older used airplane for maybe $30K or $50K or maybe $100K for a kit plane. Even so most owners would finance that with a loan. You just mention Van Aircraft file for bankruptcy. Now Ikon A5 manufacturer file for bankruptcy perhaps overselling their A5 to almost $400K. You have to research flying clubs and GA rentals for new private pilots.
gracias yo estoy pensando en la compra de un hilicopter desde puerto rico dinos more aserca de esa nave
Helicopters are more expensive than airplanes… about 2X
Great content. Do you think prices will change once so called flying cars became the norm?
Keep dreaming 😂
There are plenty of good used aircraft less than 100k. Sure they were affordable in the60's and 70's, but equipped as they were. If you want modern glass avionics, then you pay a lot. If you want a brand new aircraft, you pay a lot. If instead you want a good used aircraft to run around in, then you are more than fine with about $60k, the price of a high end car.
There was never a time when the average working man could or would buy a new plane. Pre war it was mostly for the very rich. Post war 50's and 60's it became more accessible, but still buying a new plane was the province of the middle and upper middle class. Even well paid working union guys weren't buying new planes. Motorboats, snowmobiles, little cabin on the lake, yes, but very rarely a plane. The plane is for the guy buying it, and very few working people are going to put that ahead of their family's needs or entertainment.
So only the well off can experience aviation full stop❤
That depends on what you consider well off. You can finance an aircraft for 20 years and basically just pay interest. It’s a cheap way to get flying and like he said, aircraft really haven’t depreciated and in fact prices have doubled in the last five years. Nobody will tell you it’s cheap, but aircraft ownership is possible without being mega wealthy. It will cost you money, but it’s worth it.
The engine powering yak-152 has pricetag of 113k bucks. It's the RED-a03 v12 diesel, they are putting that thing on crop dusters. Nothing is simple nowadays.
Great content, as an aircraft manufacturer I can attest to the cost of certification, maintaining your manufacturing licences, ongoing product improvement/development and keeping of parts in stock. There is also the increased liability risk which comes with selling a production built aircraft. All of the above severely drives up cost to manufacture. The advantage is that we take care of all the difficult bits and you just get to enjoy flying. One point I would slightly disagree is that there are products out there which still considered "affordable" ranging from $140k to 200k for a very well equipped two seat factory built aircraft. Shop around, you might be surprised.
There is one reason: because the consumer will pay the egregious prices and have dollars to burn. Flying isn’t a middle-class hobby. If those with dollars to burn were reasonable about value and said No along with the modest-income consumer, then prices would have to conform. This is true about everything that has a price.
The middle class is being actively down sized by the globalists through their relationships with governments around the western world. Through this systemic downsizing you by default push GA into higher income brackets. What is happening in GA is a symptom of a far larger issue.
If that were true, GA aircraft manufacturers would be extremely profitable. Look no further than Mooney, Vans, and yesterday’s announcement of the Icon Aircraft bankruptcy to see the flaw in your argument.
Mike you missed the Great Recession… airplanes and homes went down in value… disaster was involved all around. 2008 10k in 1970 was like buying two new corvettes… one was pretty expensive… unaffordable if you had a wife and kid. The few people I have met with brand new planes…. We’re not financially normal. When planes cost as much as a house, it is hard to own two houses… When planes cost as much as a new car…. It’s a lot of overtime to afford two cars. And overtime is not always available… Invest wisely… no get rich quick schemes… 😃
It’s the liability nearly killed GA manufacturers. Textron save cash for any possible lawsuits. They did not make enough during 70s and 80s.
$10K in1960 is roughly equivalent to $105K today. Being alive in 1960 I can definitely tell you that most people were not walking around with that kind of cash. Also the inflation rate at that time was about 1.72% and today it has at least tripled (and I'm being conservative). So while $10K sounds paltry by today's standards, it was very unreachable back then. Being a private pilot myself I too have seen the absolutely stupid inflationary trends and unrealistic pricing structures on aircraft. And unfortunately light sport has jumped on this bandwagon of pricing stupidity. Sad.
It's called inflation. Too much money printed, more dollars .. cars, and food are also inflated.
There is no fought about it it’s been going up & up never down I joined a club and that’s the way to get your paper and it is the best way to go !!
Nowadays, the amount of people earning good money and WANTING to earn good money by manufacturing airplanes har became larger. Also the technological improvements done in the last years has been improved at a high engineering costs. Keep in my, improving something in aviation is exponentially expensive. Additionally, if people are willing to pay the price, this expensive market will prevail.
The big cost driver is certification.
Yes, government regulations have prevented innovation in the industry. It's ridiculous that new planes are still coming with engines designed in the 60's.
I know a flight academy near me where the bare bones to get in the air would cost me $10,000.00 plus any taxes and other expenses. That's not bad, but I'd have to get a job to have the cash. If my dad won the lottery, he could get both me and him through the course easily. Right now, I'm limited to an ultralight with STRICT parameters. That ultralight alone will most likely cost more than the flight academy near me. I'm NOT kidding.
10 to 15k is the normal price for your private pilots license
@@BoringFlightVids Yeah, but some flight academies may charge more for whatever reason. If I can avoid that, I will.
Airplanes have always been expensive!
Planes cost as much as a high end suburban home. At this point, I'd rather invest the money in dividend stocks. 😅
❤❤❤
One caveat...I've never seen an airplane go down in value, but only if its currently airworthy!
Hey mike! If you're really running a flight school you might want to talk to your employees. I've made several calls left voicemails trying to give you all my money. But I can't even get a call back.
Sounds a lot like the California Gold Rush. . The people making money were the ones SELLING the tools and provisions to the miners. . Taking the analogy a step further to aviation, seems to make money (or break even) with aviation, you need to be one of those guys everyone has to pay on a regular basis. A&P mechanic sounds likely. (Then you could maintain your own aircraft and use the profits from maintaining others to pay your other expenses.)
The answer to why is anything so expensive is always the same... the government got involved.
To weed out the peasants
You think they would learn from the recent failure and bankruptcy of icon.
My question is why has airplane design remained so outdated, narrow and cramped ? Why can’t a plane have the same room as a full size pickup or SUV and affordable ? It is doable. If I’ve missed those that were advertised I apologize
Drag and weight versus confort
For similar reasons stated in the video. The cost of certification is outrageous in many cases so manufacturers are not incentivized to innovate or change dinosaur old designs
Upper middle classes hobby n rich
Why they are so expensive: one word answer: greed
Main reason is greed by the manufacturers and the insurance companies.
Many of those “greedy” manufacturers have declared bankruptcy recently because they can’t cover their costs: Vans, Mooney, Icon, etc.
Blaming greed is such a lazy statement. Everyone is greedy except the person making the claim.
Love the moonlight sonata in the background! :-)
If people lose their jobs that plane is being sold real quick at any price !
That hasn’t ever really happened
I hate to say it but what’s needed is a disruptive player to come on the scene like the Chinese. We used to have the highest number of skilled workers in the world producing the best of almost everything. Now everything is being sourced out, nobody wants to work and a fast food worker thinks they should be able to support a family flipping burgers. It’s a dark hole to go down but COVID and the government printing money like crazy and giving it away (inflation) has worsened the cost of everything. I would start with liability relief to manufacturers of planes and avionics. If you can keep the lawyers and lawsuits at bay it’s a start at stabilizing prices.
Supply and demand = higher costs, more people drive cars than fly planes. The more the consumer buys a product group the less expensive it becomes.
That and the FAA and insurance companies colluding to keep certification and coverage costs in the stratosphere.
@@CreepinCreeper145 yes, also true
Promo-SM 😋
Certain LSA makers have gotten really comfortable with 300k+ prices and that is nothing but greed. JMB, Bristell, TL ultralight, Elixir etc are all drinking on the job. Others still keep their prior only slightly ridiculous prices around 150-200. They see Rotax' greed and think they should double it and give it to the next guy. Rotax wants 20k more for the 915, if you select that option in a plane it costs you 100k more. For reasons. Diamond's sky high prices for their overweight planes is also for one simple reason, they sell to militaries. Cirrus doesn't even have that reason, it's just greed. What they can get away with because the fools keep buying them no matter the price. Jet engine guys are at the forefront of greed research. Cool million for the smallest engine on the market. Just 1. You need 2. Because what are you going to do about it? buy it from someone else? riight :) Lycoming and Incontinental are taking notes. An engine overhaul for a cessna t182 is 100k now. What they deserve is to be put out of business by a new player. Someone who suffers no status quo complacency like Elon Musk. Someone who takes no prisoners.
No one gets rich producing light piston aircraft. Some fortunate guys have made a middle class living. A lot more guys lost all of their investments. People are generally in it because they have a passionate enjoyment for it. Not what you would call "greed.". Greedy people will select some other business or profession. The market is comparatively tiny, and airplanes are hand built in tiny numbers. That's why they're expensive.
@@PRH123 there is a grain of truth to that. In the case of Rotax it is not at all true. The price of the 916 is pure greed. They make millions of engines. Nor is it true for Lycoming or Continental or Cirrus. It's true for the struggling kit makers and it's true for small light sport makers that sell for more modest price. Those that do not understand the need for optimization and volume. Those that cannot make the best plane to attract attention. And ironically the most humble often suffer the most. Elixir entered the market recently with the premise of making the fuselage and wings as a single piece composite casting to optimize production. Instead of being the most cost effective it was the most expensive LSA at 400k. Another easy piece of evidence is the price difference between 912 and 915 versions. Rotax' greed is another 20k$ but aircraft makers charge 100k for the difference. Don't tell me they are struggling with that. That is greed. Elixir is successfully making single piece fuselages. Perhaps you can imagine that eliminates a lot of man hours in production. Composite hot tubs with complex shapes, lights, plumbing and pumps retail for 2500$. There is opportunity for revolution. An LSA is a simple product, especially if you skip flaps that aren't necessary anyway. A Nissan Versa sedan with aircon and everything sold for 12k$ at dealerships. Don't tell me 300k is reasonable. if you saw what was readily possible of engineering at profitable price today you would be shocked by the contrast to what's being offered. Without Tesla what electric cars would you have? what would Audi and GM tell you was reasonable. Verily I tell you that a 4 seater twin jet going over 700km/h with better fuel economy than a bonanza can be highly profitable under 200k$ new and certified.
@@DanFrederiksen people often try to draw parallels between automobiles and airplanes, because people are familiar with cars, but their production and their cost have very little in common…. Airplanes are individually hand built, the unit cost can’t be compared with an auto made on a production line producing hundreds of thousands of units…. millions if you count other vehicles made on the same platform…. If the entire general aviation market in the us in one year sells just 2000 airplanes, that’s considered to be a very good year… Automobiles are over built, they weigh 2-3 times (or more) as much as they ought to, because weight is not such a critical factor as it is with aircraft, that must be as absolutely as light as possible whilst maintaining strength in the necessary places…. much more demanding as far as materials and construction…. and because you’re doing it by hand individually, very time consuming…. Car bodies are stamped out of mild steel and welded together, that kind of construction can’t be compared with the hand work that goes into carbon structures… Rotax sell a lot of engines if you count all the snowmobiles and motorcycles, etc, but they sell a tiny number of aircraft engines…. I would guess maybe a thousand per year maximum…. the cost of design and engineering has to be amortized over that tiny number, not over millions of units…. the cost of producing a certified engine increases the cost by 50-100% over non-certified, due to the tight control over materials, tracking, and documentation…. and again those engines are individually hand assembled, to much higher standards than auto engines… in the end a company has to make a profit, why would m lycoming or Rotax even bother to be involved in the business, if they didn’t make a reasonable profit off of it…. They don’t make lots of money, people for many years were afraid the continental and lycoming would just abandon the market… It’s not greed, it’s just basic numbers…
@@PRH123 lycoming and continental make WW2 engines, don't give me certification cost or low volume. It's just greed/incompetence. You wouldn't happen to work for one of these companies? Hot tubs are handmade too, no doubt modest volume for many of them. 2500$ retail. Meaning the store has to make a profit on it too and transport. Cirrus has by far the greatest sale volume of them all. About as expensive as you can imagine. 1 million dollars for that so so plane. Don't tell me it isn't greed.
@@DanFrederiksen well, I have to tell you, it’s not greed, for the reasons mentioned above…. it’s numbers and the reality of the business… One can hardly compare a fiberglass cold layup hot tub to a carbon kiln cured aircraft fuselage. Weight’s not a concern with a hot tub, and you can employ unskilled people to lay it up. Nobody’s going to get injured if it cracks. You don’t need to submit engineering studies and prototypes for testing for certification. You don’t need to documentation track the source and history of all your materials. There’s no post production verification of hot tubs, whereas carbon structures are x-rayed for verification. And one company may sell 100,000 hot tubs per year, as opposed to 100 airplanes. Again, comparing one’s experience with automobiles and other consumer products doesn’t map to aircraft, which includes engines. Lycoming and continentals are excellent engines for aircraft usage, and when updated with fuel injection, solid state ignition, and single power lever control, they are fully modern. The most widely used turboprop power plant in the world, the P&W PT6 was launched in the early 1950’s, for example…
Greed
Greed may be true. Depending on your definition of CAPITALISM. If you are looking to make a profit...is that, Greed? And if you are looking to make a profit...then can you really complain about the other guy doing the same thing?
You wouldn't want it to be affordable to everyone, could you imagine the younger people and the older generation that don't care for road safety being able to fly aircraft's 💯 there would be plane falling out of the sky everywhere. There's a good reason for it. I know I wouldn't want them flying around. Th
Money does not make people better pilots or drivers.
@@flyboykfpr exactly but if was affordable for everyone then we would have a problem with to many people flying that shouldn't be flying. Even a friend of mine who is a CFI Has said that just because they can afford it doesn't mean they should be allowed to fly just because they want to.
@@ibiufosYou just said the real real fact. I don't think that making aviation affordable to more people could be that bad as long as even though you still would need to pass the same tests and check rides. So whether you can afford it or not you'd still need to prove that you are able to fly.
@@rotcivuwu1793 my son rapped a car around a pole and was lucky he didn't kill himself or his mates that were in the car with him or anyone else. I know of plenty of young people that don't care for road safety, Just imagine them in a plane. I certainly wouldn't want them in aircraft. only a couple of mths ago to young blokes killed to children and both parents were fighting for their lives, and the young bloke had just got out of jail, served 3 yrs for driving offences and had a gps tracker and 1 to detect Wether he was drinking alcohol, No licence and under the influence of drugs. That's what I'm talking about
Free Covid money. Money printing. Asset expansion. That’s why they are so expensive now !
Planes are way overpriced…..no GA plane is worth over 50K…..