Why Motorcycles and Mountain Bikes Cost the Same
2023 ж. 13 Қаз.
1 378 861 Рет қаралды
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Ryan F9 and The D.O.D. finally settle the age old debate: why do some mountain bikes cost as much as a brand new motorcycle? Mountain bikes don’t have complicated engines full of small moving parts. Shouldn’t they cost less than motor bikes?
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Directed and Edited by Girish Appanah
Ah the days when I tripled the value of my car by putting my road bike on top.
Ha ha, relatable!
LOL Ok, I'm stealing this ahah
Shit, I can do that by filling the tank.
@@tsubakitengai Two points!
(snort) 😜
No debate mountain bikes are totally overpriced.
100% I'm not doing bike anymore and just bought a motorcycle this week because bikes are crazy overpriced. For the same price I have an engine that can commute on highways... no debates at all
@@Dannyb201 they are different sports entirely, while yes it definetely costs a lot of money for bikes, you have to keep in mind that you don't have to buy a $8,000 bike but you kind of have to buy a $8000 motorcycle it costs companies a lot of money to design and test the new models, as well as create 5 different types of bikes a year, whereas motorcycles often use the same design for a while. (And I would say its more fair to compare them to a dirtbike not a street bike)
@@SamuelLewin24literally nobody asked them to create 5 new bicycles a year especially since I’m not the one buying them. There’s no reason to defend this shit. I should not have to expect to pay 1200-1500€ for a bicycle that is somewhat decent. Bicycles are way to overpriced especially since governments like the German government are so keen on controlling everything and making it illegal to drive a motorcycle for no reason but won’t look into the fact that bicycles somehow cost just as much as a f ing car. A 30 pound bicycle shouldn’t not compete with a 5000+ pound car. It makes no sense especially since the materials have to be the same except in a few but nonetheless makes no sense. I get why high end once can be pricey (not to this degree) but why do usable once for the general public also have to be. There’s simply no excuses
@@SamuelLewin24 lmao no you dont have to buy an 8000 dollar motorcycle.
@@SwaxMain4u No you can get a 6,000 dollar bike instead? A true 'entry' level motorcycle is not going to cost that much less. You can also go the other way too and compare a motorcycle to a car. You can buy a 20,000 dollar motorcycle. You can buy a 20,000 dollar car. Which is more machine? No matter what kind of bias we have for the motorcycle it'd only be foolish to argue the motorcycle is 'more'. So why are they the same price?
I remember just getting into the bicycle world when my dads brand new carbon fiber trek got rear ended on the back of our SUV. The insurance company looked up the price of every single part of that bike because they couldn't believe it cost so much.
300 hundred for just the spokes!? 😰
@@yuth8713 it was on the car. Strapped to the back of it on a bike rack
@@yuth8713 I couldn't say if they would or wouldn't. All I can do is relay my personal experience that in that particular instance they reluctantly did.
@@yuth8713 In the US
It depends on your policy.@@yuth8713
For $18,000 you can have a Specialized Tarmac SL8 pedal road bike or a 215hp BMW S1000RR super bike. This pricing is purely a function of sporting good market pricing vs automotive market pricing. Mfg and delivery costs are not even remotely close for these 2 products.
If profit margins are so extreme for bicycles, then there should be plenty of competition in the market.
I mean no, that's not how competition works, if all the companies charge a shit load of money, it still stays expensive, also look at decathlon, my gravel bike is 630 euros, it has done more downhill than most downhill mtb's
@@CleverAccountName303 That's only assuming customers are willing to trust a significantly cheaper product and the manufacturer is prepared to upscale a lot just to create a low margin huge business. Even if they did, why not just build for 1k and sell for 5k? Quite a small operation remains viable without the need to source or invest millions and billions of high interest someones money?
@@iebe4388So you have evidence that good bikes are not that expensive. Does that mean consumers are stupid?
A product is worth what someone is willing to pay for it. Period!!!! Price to produce only effects whether the product will continue.
As a mountain biker myself, I have to say mountain bike companies have gotten extremely greedy especially during covid .
frugal is your word
@@redlight3932you mean smart with money ? I’ll take it.
Having worked in the bike industry for more than 10 years I can say this is false. Bike companies operate on slim margins and run on passion. The cost of bikes increased during the pandemic because the cost of container shipping went up more than 5x in just a few months. Additionally bicycle supply chains take at least 1 years to respond to changes in demand due to manufacturing lead times. The only way to keep in the black as a bike company paying for 2x as many bikes in 2021 as you purchased in 2020 would be to raise prices, even on existing stock.
Stop. Not all mountain bikers are absolutely clueless about economics.
Don't break your collarbone or lose all your teeth on a handlebar
That last "It's in neutral" joke floored me. The writers at FortNine always hit
This line got me heheheh
I'm flatlined from this joke lol
I'm rolling on the floor
🤣🤣💀
I died and "it's in neutral" is written on my tombstone
Interesting. I do think the "market" is the biggest issue with the inflated prices though. Even with breaktrough tech, you used to be able to get a race-ready downhill bike for 4-5K. Similar bikes in modern tech that is still primarily tension-driven cables is somehow pushing 12K.
The demand and covid exploded the E-bike market Prices whent from 3k to 4-5k and you get NOTHING for that extra 1k.
Most modern-day moutain bikes are using electronic shifting and hydraulic breaks many of them 4 piston calipers they are also completely carbon fiber including the rims and use suspension technology that you would only see on the highest emd motorcycles and sometimes not even there. $13k bicycles are not using cables there are no cables on them.
@@vincentwieserThat definitely is partially true, but not entirely. There are PLENTY of modern bikes that are nearly equivalent to tech you'd see in 2010-2014 (the last I shopped), but at 2x-3x the price. Suspension tech, geometry, and carbon quality may have improved, but I simply don't see any concrete items that actually justify THAT substantial of a markup outside of the growing popularity.
Back in 1988 I bought a Diamond Back Arrival black and yellow splatter paint for about $1,100 CAD, I still have the bike, and it still turns heads when people look at it, I've never left it out in the rain and when I did take some years off biking it was hug either in my garage or my basement depending where I lived at the time. Now I use it to make runs to the store here in Venezuela... the quality of the build still holding up great...
I was born in '81 I miss my Dyno/GTs. DB's were the shit back then fo sho.
As a cyclist and a lifelong motorcycle rider, there is no way bicycle companies can justify the $7-10k they charge except that there are people with money who are willing to pay it because in their world, spending more money on something than the next guy means something…SMH
Top dollar bicycle are made of carbon fiber Motorcycles are made of steel. The price differences in production machinery alone is huge, let alone the material itself.
@@Agm1995gamer so is the production of engines, gearboxes, electronics ect. in motorcycles. Sorry but there is just no way asking the same price for both is fair
You think that's crazy, look at the price for wheelchairs
Yeah, carbon.. Almost forbiden from dh and hard enduro races cos is dangerous to broke, same weight with alu for the same reason... Roadies is their specialty and trail-xc, agree with the cost of production,but they didn't do anything to change that😉 money is good for the corps.
...Did you miss the point of the video? People dont bitch about the cost of a Ferrari, its just a thing that exists. You can buy a great bike for 2500 bucks, a 10 grand bike is comparable to a Ferrari, no one is forcing you to buy one but its pretty amazing to drive.
As a former mountain biker for like 10+ years now into motorbikes, this was one of the best pieces of content I’ve ever seen
This finally answers the question I've always wondered! I buy used bikes and motorcycles, they rarely get ridden, there are so many near virgin bikes out there to slay! 😂
good for youuuu
@@shaundisch2020good ol' "rode it 4 times, got a tire puncture and never bothered to fix it"
@@shaundisch2020 yeah, especially bikes it's very easy to find good bargains compared to new bikes, ones with just 3 or 4 years already cost half as much and often with little maintenance they go back to perfect shape. I bought a 2009 Demo 8 for 600 bucks and i never thought i would get my hands on a bike i like so much (neither did i know before that i did). It's black and red like i wanted, it's the correct size for me and i love the geometry it has, with the main negative point being that the area arond the shock is so crowded that it's a nightmare to clean
@Ferrari255GTO Nice!!! I got a Specialized Pitch FS with a Chris King headset for $200 at a Pawn Shop. Used it for 4 years and sold it for $600. I think they listed it for what they paid for it accidentally, not sure. Love those lucky deals.
Bicycle prices have inflated massively in the last 4-5 years. The quality of mountain bike parts has actually gone up a fair bit too, with 4-piston brakes, electronic shifting, etc... all technologies that were nascent WELL BEFORE the inflation skyrocketed, but for consumers were a convenient justification to spend 40% more than they did on their last bike for these next gen upgrades. But I hold that besides incremental geometry changes in the frame (and honestly, it doesn't cost much to R&D frame geos), a late 2018 pre-inflation bike is pretty much identically capable to a 2024 bike, even though the latter will retail for close to TWICE as much. BTW, where did bike companies put all that extra profit (other than in their own pockets)? Into paying off their R&D into e-bikes, and doubling down their investments in e-bike tech.
I doubt the quality has gone up, but rater the marketing that the new crap they are selling is way better than the older one has
But some of the technology is definitely getting better, i.e more reliable, efficient, robust. Specifically brakes, droppers, and 1x drivetrains. I'm a total luddite when it comes to this stuff, but I have to service these high-tech mountain bikes (I am a bike mechanic), and even I must admit some of the new stuff is much better, even if the marketing is pretty hyperbolic.
@@andyzacek9760 its not really "technology" i doubt. Removing a front chainring and derraileur, putting bluetooth on a bike shifter or just making the modulation better has so little engineering for it to be done. Assuming the brake pads are the same, shimano can easily make their cheapest hydraulic brakes have the same modulation and power as their downhill brakes for like 1 dollar added cost.
I'm curious why you believe these things. I don't think what you're saying is true at all. Mechanical engineering and manufacturing are not trivial, and there is real R&D that goes into this stuff. It's funny you say that about Shimano brakes, sounds like you don't realize they ARE all the same design already. The differences in power and modulation come from the higher quality of the materials and manufacturing, i.e. spending more than like $1 extra. For example, M4100 series are exactly the same mechanical design as M9100 brakes, but the 9100s feel much better. They achieve tighter tolerances in the cylinders by using more machining (more money) and use much harder piston material (more money, lots more R&D to develop the thermally tuned ceramic pistons). There is simply no way to make these higher end parts as cheaply as they can make low end parts, which the exception of a novel design which can perform well with cheaper manufacturing. Novel design and engineering costs money. Bottom-of-the-barrel mt200 brakes which literally cost $30 perform as good or better than high end brakes with worse designs that we had in the early 2000s, so the overall design is definitely improving as more engineering hours go into designing brakes. sorry for the novel @mrnorthz9373
@@andyzacek9760 yeah thanks for schooling me, the reason i thought this way was because i thought it just had to do with mechanical advantage. Ofcourse i know the tolerances will be higher and the weight will be lighter, but it really didnt make sense to me why this would increase braking power. If you had a pulley system with the ratio of 2:1 i didnt think you could really make noticable difference by using high end polymer rope and 3d printed titanium pulleys. Anyways, of course there is engineering and R&D, but bikes dont have anything new. Its just existing design. Hydraulic brakes long existed before bikes had them, ceramic pads long existed before bikes had them, and so on. Also, are the deore brakes you mentioned same design as the xtr brakes? Is t the piston on the xtr bigger and the shifter piston smaller?
Haven’t seen a vid from you in a while but damn they are refreshing. Funny, meticulously informative and feels more honest than 99% of anyone.
extremely high priced mountain bikes available during COVID are why I purchased my first dirt bike. Everything seemed like a deal next to a $5,000 pedal machine.
No joke, I bought my KTM 350 for about $10K with all the crating costs and all that included (this was back in 2014 mind you), makes no sense how a bicycle can be in that same price range when an entire motorcycle engineered to jump a hundred feet and not blow to pieces can be the same price.
i bought my Baja rouser ns 200 (the famous ktm duke 200 for latin america) used for 1500 usd, great bike for the city 8k MTB is the best bussines, you can have the same bike made by you for 2k @@GeddyRC
@@IgnacioDure no you can't.
@@IgnacioDureIn India it's called the "Bajaj Pulsar 200NS"
Yeah I bet the data on people that opted out of the hobby since COVID is eyewatering. This video is like: "it's because of a picky customer base" rather than forced BS industry "standards" lol.
No one will never convince me that mtb’s are not a rip off and I own 5, and 3 motorbikes.
they're a rip-off when you go to sell one five years later and they've lost 50-75% of their value. that rarely happens with a motorbike
@@EatonSomeMore yep, imagin its like trying to sell a pair of used shoes.
@@EatonSomeMoreWhich is why I will never understand people buying new things like bicycles that depreciate hard and fast. My last mtb I got for $550 (Trek Marlin 8 2022) while it retails for $1200. Basically brand new, less than 300-400 miles driven on it. For a $550 bike it's absolutely amazing. Same thing with the bike in the video, give it a year or two and you can get used it for $3000 in mint condition. Even less if you're patient enough.
Look at gravel and road bikes, 2k for an entry level one and most of them come with Tiagra groups ets 😂
@@EatonSomeMore… and that’s why I love used bikes
The only reason both road and Mountain bicycles have become so expensive is because... ppl keep buying them despite the price. lol
What I love about pedal bikes is their accessibility. You don’t need to by a thousand dollar bike, anyone can learn how to work on a bike and parts are readily accessible, meaning you can get what you can afford and build out the kind of bike that best suits your needs
This is so funny. I remember doing this calculation about four years ago when I was looking to buy a mountain bike for my local downhill trails in sunny old Englandshire... I literally could not get my head around the equivalence of cost between mountain bikes and motorcycles. I realised that I could actually hire a 7K plus downhill mountain bike for £70 for day at the weekend. I worked out I would need to go mountain biking every weekend for 2 years before it would equate to the retail cost of the bike. Anyway, long story short, I bought a motorcycle. ;O)
That's a great point. If ever I find myself wanting to ride an MTB, renting is something I will surely consider.
Which motorcycle?
winwin I'd say. I'm deep into the gravel biking lifestyle. I've done my thinking and the max I'd say I'd spend on a bicycle is
I highly recommend looking into gravel riding, it's less mtb but faster road riding in the woods@@charlienyc1
the only problem with this logic is that after two years you have something to sell to get your money back...so owning is renting if you know how to maintain and handle right....
I thought my parents were crazy when they bought 2 E-Bikes that each cost the same as I paid for my F800GS… and I honestly still think they’re crazy
Mark up on e-bikes is insane because of the small market and the fact that no one will undercut because everyone uses white label Chinese factory bikes.
Makes more sense in locations where getting a motorbike licence requires a fair amount of effort plus you're saving on a real helmet and leathers cos apparently people don't fall off ebikes. Being on bicycle lanes if you've got good local infrastructure is also likely safer.
You know something? I honestly think your are right.
You don't need a license for an e-bike. You don't pay registration. They're easier to take places. There are genuine reasons to get an e-bike over a motorcycle.
@@JohnFromAccountingcant compare . Riding a motorcycle is a whole different world .
I’ve owned three mountain bikes over 2k and one over 10k. The difference? A couple grams and design style. As a matter of fact, my ibis mojo carbon was the first and only bike I owned for less than a year before selling it and when I did, I bought a better bike for less and a motorcycle. I now own a Deviate Claymore which outclasses the ibis all day long and a KLR 650 which can carry my Claymore not only to the trails but through them as well.
That’s a massive flex! Carrying a mountain bike on a KLR650!
The argument would be lost for bikes if you would compare with a mass produced ebike with the same price and intented use. Not to mention Motorcycle manufacturers engineer and produce much more parts than bike manufacturers who basically only make the frame and the assembly (if they don't outsource it to Asia
Ryan it's time to make a video on Chinese motorcycles.
yes!
I third that
You mean the new Harley-Davidson? ZING! ~RF9
on the good? (cfmoto 450ss) or the bad? (venom x22r max)
@@FortNinedefinitely cover the cfmoto 450ss
“Look at all those colors.” That one’s never gonna get old!
Should've sold him on a Royal Enfield.
The funny part is that most bicycle manufacturers have just one or two colors per model per trim level. Most motorcycle manufacturers generally give at least two. And if you get certain motorcycles, like a touring BMW, there are low and standard suspension heights, multiple seat heights or an adjustable seat, and potentially adjustable handlebars. So there's more to it than the simplified version shown in the video.
Unless it's canyon lol, I hate their color selection.
The standardization in mountain bikes is impressive. Obviously there's limits on what can fit where but upgrades are endless for any brand
HAHAHA standardization in MTB industry :D You have no idea...
I'm halfway thru this video and I don't want it to end. So good.
Being both a mtb user and dual sport bike rider I found this video extremely relatable and funny. Bought a used canyon spectral carbon recently at a very good price and still costs more than what I can get for my 2001 Transalp lol
It never really occurred to me, but the first proper MTB frame I bought cost about as much as my first motorcycle.
You mean Canyon Spectral? Because Specialized doesn't make a bike named Spectral.
And people wonder why everything is so expensive.....
But why you need that? I own a 300 EUR Merida crossway bike and it's perfectly fine. Whatever you guys are doing to your MTB is like buying a Motocross bike, then going aftermarket and factory everything. It's pretty easy to get a motorcycle at 100k+ this way 😅
@@EscurKoSurvivability mainly. I used to ride my cheap MTB with my brother and his friends, I was constantly breaking components and having trouble keeping up with their higher end bikes. Eventually I actually broke my frame going over a small huck, cheap bikes just aren't built to the same standard.
The transition from aluminum/steel frames to carbon fibre appeared to give the manufacturers a free pass to jack the prices on everything. There are so many sub-categories of mtn bikes now that even industry insiders have a hard time explaining them. I ride sportbikes, mtn bikes, and road bikes so I have no dog in this fight, just money exiting my wallet. 😄
The number of bike categories are nearly matching the number of BB standards now.
carbon is so stupid I hope they will eventually stop making carbon stuff
And now the industry is going back to aluminum. The whole industry goes in circles and tries to remarket old working tech as new because they have nothing more to add, we are at the point of diminishing returns and squeezing whatever they can to get people to continue buying. The prices are high because people stupidly believe in the hype marketing and buy these over priced things and the companies keep getting away with it. Carbon Fiber as a manufacturing cost is relatively low once you get the molds set up - people will then usually defend the companies citing R&D but that is just a bs justification they have for over paying.
Crazy fact, is that carbon cost less and is faster to manufacture than aluminium
price increase came before carbon i assure you - see my post above
That actually makes a lot of sense, I'm looking into biking now and was floored by the prices of even moderate level stuff so I just assumed the target demographic outprices me but all those points make it make a lot more sense
No it doesn't make any sense. It is all lies...
How does it make sense 😂
You buy what you want to last, and good parts tend to cost more. My wheelset was $1k, new in 2018 and still straight as new. My Fox 36 forks were $1,100 in 2019, and I don't plan on replacing until 2030. Saved money on my custom steel hardtail frame, only $600 from Peru. The problem is too many people think they need full suspensions. Hardtails can handle 90% of trails.
Seeing Yoann Barelli collaborate with FortNine is the crossover I didn't know I needed.
Crossover? Is that how he fit in the box?
I was surprised as well! Such a cool guy
was that the real guy?!
So the conclusion is really that each of these two-wheelers is being developed with different approaches. The bicycle is a combo of lower volume, customisation and charging what their customers will pay. The motorcycle is higher volume, no customisation and actually trying to get as low a price point as possible. It's just a coincidence that they both end up at the same price point, and so people (me included) can't believe they have the same value
There are, of course, much much cheaper bicycles out there that use similar production and design ethos to the motorcycle. Those bicycles are much less expensive than $8000. Being able to get motor bikes in different sizes would be amazing though
Pro level bike....vs entry level Moto. Completely different levels. Its like F22 fighter....vs 30 year old Cessna
@@marcalvarez4890A better analogy would be a High-end speedboat vs an entry level Yacht. Similar price, same principles, different uses
@@bradcomis1066 yeah it'd be amazing to somehow have sizing on motorbikes, I've got long legs and I look kinda ridiculous on the smaller Japanese and Italian bikes, which I guess we're mainly designed for small Japanese and Italian men. I suspect one of the reasons for no sizing is the sheer engineering that's gone into the design of motorbikes, considering they work so well at different speeds and loads. Changing the position of handlebars, seat, footpegs etc probably changes how it works, hence it's not offered (unless you're Tom Cruise and you can get a custom sportsbike). Still, it'd be awesome!
@@mcradical6283 Another reason is that is simply isn't that relevant when you don't have to paddle. Sure it matters, but not that much.
One of the bigger problems here is bike PARTS also got crazy expensive. If you're not so well off financially and depend on a working bike to get you to placed (that's common in Europe, especially for youths) you might get into situations were you can't afford replacement parts fitting the group/system you have on your bike and in the case of brakes or drivetrain this can very quickly become a massive hazard to your life.
I can’t believe the number of people willing to spend over $6k for a non-EV mountain bike. That’s just wild to me. And yet, $6k seems to be close to the average price of a very good equipped bike. Blows my mind knowing mountain bikes can easily reach $10k, and even at that price, they sell! Why are so many of you willing to spend that kind of money in a mountain bike? Especially when you don’t race for money!!! How many times do we these $5-6k bikes go on sale, for like 40% off? Pretty frequently. That tells me how crazy the profit margin these bikes have! We need to stop buying them at full retail people! If they can still make money by discounting them more than 30%, then we shouldn’t be even considering buying them at MSRP! Save your money and buy only when it’s on sale!
because there are people in higher tax brackets who can afford them. Also, they all have a common kink; they want something that most people cannot afford. So yeah, ego is in the equation because as you know, it makes no goddamn sense.
Very few people are buying $8k MTB. As a serious hobbyist, you can get by with something around $2k for a decent hardtail, and $3k for a full sus. I am speaking about trail, rather than esoteric disciplines in MTB because as soon as you start specializing in enduro, XC, DH, you are going in "professional" territory. This video compares an average street bike, so it should compare to an average MTB.
And probably like 95% of the "mountain bike market" will be bikes in the 200-999$ range, of which 95% will never see a mountain to begin with.
They're comparing two bikes that cost the same. Why does this confuse you?
Considering where the video was filmed it is the average price for a mtb.
so YOUR average MTB is the equivalent of a Honda XR150L noted the XR150L will also never see the race track again.... id have to go back over 15 years to see if it EVER saw the race track
Jenny, they're comparing the best mountain bike to an average motorcycle. It'd be like comparing the Queen's carriage to a Polo and asking why wagons cost more than cars.
As a lifelong cyclist and motorcyclist, I just think bicycles are ridiculously overpriced. I am 58, a bicycle for a pro on the "Tour de France" is just as useful to me as a Ninja H2R is. On my bicycle, I just aspire to do some cardio workout, have a smooth ride, enjoy the scenery and keep up with my friends in the same age bracket. I believe that the gain in performance gets less and less as you increase the price. My bicycle is a second hand aluminum Wilier Triestina, good enough for me. A few seconds might make all the difference between winning and losing to a pro, none whatsoever to me. And the real stiff carbon frame will exhaust me hurt my old joints.
I guarantee you, a carbon frame bike will shake your old joints less than that second hand aluminum Wilier. Carbon layups allow for anisotropic flex and compliance (part of that high price tag people complain about). My 11 year old Specialized Roubaix carbon road bike is far more comfortable than my old aluminum gravel bike, yet when I stomp my foot on the pedal, it transfers power far better and takes off. Carbon makes a huge difference in my enjoyment and comfort on a road bike, even as a weekend-warrior dad.
Bikes are indeed overpriced, but there is a point at which one can pay too little. Ironically (or not?) the term dentist came up a number of times in this video. If you try actually riding a $300 mountain bike on an off road trail, which was put together by some clueless Wal*Mart employee, there's a good chance your spending into the thousands of dollars on dental work and or casts when the cheap bike breaks underneath you while riding. You can get a trail worthy hard tail for less than a grand, seems like the sweet spot for mountain bikes in my opinion.
65 year old rider- love my carbon giant
my steel bikes whip and wiggle and bother my joints not at all, while my aluminum ones are hard as rocks when you mash on them and vibrate quite a bit more to boot. that said, the tire is an order of magnitude more floppy than the frame so lower the pressure a bit, get a bit larger tire, and you'll be 90% of the way there for far less cost
Just spend the time to get a capable used frame and build it up to a spec that can handle your riding. I built up a hard tail for jumps and local single track for about 700 total. 9speed clutched derailleur, 11-46tooth cassette, 120mm rockshox fork, old used tektro comp hydro brakes. It's a little rowdy on fast techy trails but keeps the chain on and it's quiet. (If you have bad joints and still wanna ride get a full squish😅)
What I wonder is why a bicycle tire or disk rotors or disk pads or other regular ware items cost as much as the ones in a car or motorbike? Most of them are off-the-shelf components whose new version is not developed each year but rather stays the same for a decade or so... And Other things... Why road bikes are so much more expensive than mounting bikes? That doesn't make any sense at all...
This was a great video, the evaluation from differing markets was very interesting.
While all the points made here are valid, I think the most important point is where those two bikes fall in their relative performance ranges. The KTM is pretty close to entry-level pricing and performance for a street bike, and while the Norco is not at the top, it's definitely within Sight range of it. I personally have a ~$5k motorcycle and a ~$5-700 bike, which feels like a much more reasonable comparison. Both are a step above entry level with a couple of points of upgrades on them, and they're both solidly fine for me.
Yeah, pretty much a false equivalence. A bicycle that costs $7,359CAD is more on par with a motorcycle that costs $20,000CAD. Except that bicycles suck and motorcycles are better in every way.
@@mrflippantthey do not compare, at all. I have a 2900 dollar mtb and a 3100 dollar motorcycle and I love both of them.
My used Versys 650 was $5k but I have to remind myself it was closer to $10k new -- meanwhile my new build bicycle from a custom shop, built to my spec, was $2200 (albeit for a simple single-speed bike without suspension or much else of what makes MTBs expensive!). They're very different worlds, but my Kawasaki is almost certainly rocking worse quality steel and the fit and finish is similarly disproportionate
just letting you know that i Saw your pun 😆
@@mrflippantThis comment is exactly why as much as I love motorcycles I’ll never get into the culture around them.
Just cyclist here: With bikes The more you pay the less bike you get- literally. It is lighter and more nimble. However there is a sweet spot much much lower price range. If you go past it however you start getting frequent technical issues because components are build to price and not to last. So ride what you can afford and I hope you can afford at least the sweet spot :)
Light, cheap, durable -- pick 2
@@SingleTrackMinedCheap and durable...but mostly durable. I don't expect to replace my bike in a year or two. Or five. Ten? Maybe 🤔
What is the minimum sweet spot?
@@smartguy9765 it depends of what type of bike you want. But I would expect that most of the population would have a long lasting good quality experience with something like 20-30% of this top tier. So not using the cheapest components or even some fakes but some sub mid grade of known brands.
Snobbism IMHO. I've rode till last year the same 2004 Merida Matts 90 and it took me to the exact same places it took me when I was a teenager. It never bent, never broke and I destroyed two helmets falling from it. Just now it reached the point where I need to replace everything but the frame. It was perfectly adequate for almost 20 years. The only disadvantage is that the world of circling is filled with classist people that think less of you if you don't have the newest bike.
Bro I've been waiting 4 months for a single part to come back in stock from trek for my mountain bike. The model is only 5 years old. These companies are crazy greedy and don't support their bikes.
I'm surprised FortNine didn't mention the golden argument for motorcycles: A $7,000 motorcycle probably cost about $4,000 to manufacture; counting for the manufacturer's overhead, it's true cost may be even higher. The manufacturer probably makes $1,000 or less when it's all said and done, and the dealer (depending on whether they are honest or if they markup) probably makes another $1,000. The total profit margin for EVERYONE INVOLVED is probably only about $2,000. The mountain bike? Probably costs an Italian deluxe sandwich and a bag of chips to manufacture, and MSRPs for the SAME PRICE as the motorcycle (on a serious note, it might cost about $700-$1000 to manufacture, which is still obscenely less than the MSRP). For the MSRP of ANY bicycle to be the same as a MOTOR VEHICLE with full highway capability is nothing short of preposterous. Nobody will ever convince me that this is ANYTHING OTHER THAN GREED. It's fine to be greedy; just be honest about it (although, I suspect if you WERE honest about it, nobody would buy them anymore).
Ive been a MTB/DH/trials guy my whole life and over the years watching pedal bikes raise in cost to insane levels. Last year I was looking at a new Trek Slash and Remedy for my new resort and DH rig. When the shop told me the price along with at least a year wait time, I went over to the motorcycle dealership and left with a new dual sport. The motorcycle was far less than the Trek and with the money I saved I used that to buy all new moto gear. After 20+ years in cycling they priced me out so I went moto. I will never buy a new bicycle ever again, plus a used bicycle has no resale value whatsoever. And I found a cherry Beta 250 trials moto for under 1k and runs perfectly- and that was still less than a used MTB. Its comical.
Totally agree with your final decision. Would have done the same if I didn't live in France where dual sport practice is kinda considered illegal now in many places and so far e-mtb are the current solution but that will probably evolve soon ans not in the interest of my favorite weekend occupation 😢. And if I wasn't 100+ kg (220pounds) I would probably jump to a sur Ron dealership to get a 60kg electric bike/mtb thingy that is also illegal to ride in most Forrests here
@@yordankrushkov8488 220 lbs, how much wine and cheese door you consume?
@@jamesschneider3828Mate, tall people are easily 200lbs. I often forget when asking someone what they weight that very fact, so when someone saying 130lbs or 150lbs I'm always looking at them crazy for not having a hiigher weight. Pre-surgery: I was 240lbs at 6'5" and with that weight mostly being muscles in my thighs and legs, and some muscle in my back and shoulders. Post-surgery (metal rod in my right lower leg): I weighed in last at 270lb. Sure, some of that is bedrest fat, but I didn't grow super fat over 1 month of good healthy nutrionist-monitored food from the hospital. I had a whole lot of extra weight now on just my lower right leg. If/when I get my right leg amputated I'll really be surprised by the weight probably. Anyways, I only said the post-surgery as I said "pre-surgery" so just wanted it to be clear. But the point is most people that are 5'11 and 6'0 are typically 190-210lbs. Keep height in mind.
You could also argue that there's still good bikes in the lower levels of cost. While you could get a near race bike tier cost, you could also spend a lot less and still get something that will get you out on the trail. Very few people need a dakar bike just as very few people need the same bike a pro rider is using. That said, used bikes are an excellent value and even more so than used motorcycles (which I recommend to nearly anyone who will listen). All of my bicycles and motorcycles have been used.
Of course you could've bought an used MTB. High end bicycles depreciate more than cheaper ones.
The best reason for any price is that it is what people are willing to pay, and frequently do so for brand names instead of actual value. Ryan nailed it when he said they charge what customers are willing to pay and the answer of scale to that has little to do with it.
how many bike manufacturers are there, vs moto manufacturers, it's short sided to say scale isn't a factor, unless I misunderstand what he means by scale.
Scale is a massive factor though On a motorcycle, if you're shorter you just sit in a different place On a bicycle, you only have one saddle worth of space, so your only choice is frame size Then there's suspension types because all motorcycles are full suspension And most mtbs including full suspension vary wildly in terms of frame and suspension geometry All motorcycles ride on road, with the exception of small dirt bikes which this isn't one of A mtb can go on wildly different courses with different jumps, declines, and obstacles Yamaha offer less motorcycle models than canyon offers mtb variations, ignoring sizes which motorcycles don't have to deal with
Bikes are a rip off. When you walk into a fancy bike shop, you need to realize that the margin of a new bike is paying for all that overhead. So while it's true that bike shops will charge what people are willing to pay, the price can't drop too much because of the costs of running the bike shop. If people weren't willing to pay the minimum to cover all that overhead, the manufacturer and bike shop would stop selling bikes rather than the bikes selling for "what the customers are will to pay". So that's a bit of nonsense. That's why there are direct to consumer brands that in some cases sell for half the price of the big name bike brands.
Exactly this. I've been looking through bikes basically, whole 2 last days (because i wanna start the hobby), and from what i have found out, a huge margin of bike prices is air. And the improvement to price scales, are extremely highly stacked towards the price. Basically at 1.5k you have a really good bike. Then when you pay double of that, you have basically still the same really good bike, with few minor improvements. A few, way more experienced bikers i ended up speaking to showed me how you can find a "no name" brand, that uses frames manufactured in same places, from same material, same components added to bikes, yet way more reasonably priced, than well known, expensive brands.
@@SRMal8723 look at brands like Canyon, cube, giant and so on and you'd find 600$ hardtails with a mid tier groupset 2000$ is your full sus deore/road bike 105 it's big brands like those that usually get the best price on cheap stuff also keep in mind the groupset, it's the engine equivalent part for bikes
Great video. I mountain bike, but don’t have a motorcycle. I only wish it pointed out that you can get totally viable mountain bikes for about half, or less, what the norco costs, and the used economy is all different. My main trail bike was only $2k used.
You can get totally viable 125 cc motorcycles for half or less too though
🙏 Same goes when choosing Running Shoes. We can still enjoy a Good Running Shoes with more affordable prices to select those in the Middle-Range ones! 😊🙏
Great video! The surprise Yoann Barelli appearance was icing on the cake. Since F9 sells MTB gear I hope you guys do more MTB related content.
You’re actually insane if you think 7500 for a bicycle is a fair price
I have MTB worth 250 dollar which is very high-end model , alloy frame , 21 speed gears with Shimano derailleur , 29 inch tyre and its fantastic to ride. For 7500 dollar I can make my own bicycle with work shop and all the required tools...
@@h49suthar None of what you've described comes even close to high spec.
@@h49suthar Which model of Shimano derailleur and shifter did you use?
@@h49suthargood luck buying all the tools for 7500 😂
@@h49suthar Sorry to burst your bubble. Run what you've got. but once you've experienced a proper mountain bike (around the 3K USD mark) you'll understand why they are so expensive... Its very hard to explain to someone who doesn't ride MTB why we spend thousands on our bikes.
So happy I found this channel! I’ve binge watched about 20 videos and I don’t even ride motorbikes. Love the Analytics. 😊
Something about paying the same price for transportation that requires peddling and takes longer to get from a to b just doesn't sit right with me.
I bought my CBR 600RR when prices were pretty cheap... but, my motorcycle was cheaper than my MTB. And, as someone who does both, I find the price of MTB's insane and not worth it.
I’d love to see an itemized cost breakdown for the mountain bike; still seems like a ripoff even with greater performance and choice (ex: work boots come in ~18 sizes, 3 safety options, and 2 colors and rarely crack a grand even for the good stuff). Most outdoor products suffer from a pretty hefty yuppie markup, as well as very limited production runs and rapid new product development (lots of choices and output but effectively no economy of scale, whose cost the yuppie market will also bear)
If you buy the parts separate from the bike you'll pay waaaaay more..
I think the problem is too many boutique bike makers out there. There's no shortage of MTBs, but if they are being made from 100 different companies, you'll never see the benefits an economy of scale can bring to the consumer.
@taylorhickman84 you think the problem with the price is too much competition?
@@FlexibleToast I wouldn't classify it as "competition", also I should have worded that differently as I feel it's part of the problem, but not the main issue. But if you compare the moto industry to MTB industry, look at how many more MTB manufacturers there are in comparison. If there were less manufacturers, they would be cranking out higher volume which can bring prices down. Their R&D certainly can't cost more than a motorcycle, so the only reason for their prices to be justifiable is that they don't produce in large volume. I'm trying to give them the benefit of the doubt, but as many have pointed out price gouging may be a key component. But until we see some internal documents that show profit margins, I can only speculate.
Comment's old but so was my knowledge on this when this came out Issue with driving down costs with bikes is that there are too many reasonable variations of things you could only change at the start Carbon/Aluminum frame Frame Geometry Suspension Geometry Suspension Size Front/Full suspension Gearing Ease/Top Speed Tire size front and rear Groupset You're left with what would it be... 50 different options all things considered? Then again, you could always find the bike you want with a cheaper but very much sufficient groupset at 2k or a hardtail for 600$
I think the demand for "aftermarket" bicycle components which are mostly exactly the same as OEM components is a big difference as well. I think a significant majority of cyclists do a hefty amount of aftermarket part shopping, which would necessarily drive up the price of OEM parts as well. I don't think the same could be said for motorcycles. It's pretty easy to tally up the individual parts list on a mountain bike and see where the cost is coming from (and also to see the value in some complete builds), but then you'll have to hone in on each component company. The engineering for bicycle parts is much more distributed and dynamic.
Cost is coming from manufacturers raising the price as high as they can because they know people pay for it.
I spent nearly $500 for a maybe upper midrange mountain bike - in 1995. So around $2k for that same level in 2023 isn't too surprising. As for a $7k mountain bike, well that really is some insane tech compared to even top level stuff nearly 30 years ago, and as always top end products tend to have much smaller customer bases.
I think a better comparison would be with motocross or enduro bikes which are also updated every one or two years and are just a couple of grand away from full competition bikes.
Was looking for this comment as pro level MTB is nearly the same as pro level ktm dirt bike in price
I disagree, its not even close. My 2024 KX250 has a MSRP of around 8k, pro level competition 250s are easily over 80k.
@@Carlisho but enduro motorcycles are a lot closer to pro competition equipment right?
@@CarlishoPrice vs performance. Truth is you can race just fine, and a pro can ride just fine, on any stock mx bike for that matter. The stock vs factory rides are closer in performance than a ktm390 and their motogp bikes. Especially in motocross, where privateers are running A-kit suspension bikes totaling around 24K
yeah this isn't true at all. Yes you can ride a stock KTM in the pro class and guys have done it but consider this. Buying a top tier set of suspension for your bike is already 15k US, then you're looking at around 4k in motor work, and then the tuning. Let alone the cost of development for those top tier parts that they use.
I myself am an avid Mountain Biker, and work in a bike shop. The modern bike industry is a weird one to say the least, some examples the bike brand we sell almost all of the bikes the whole sale cost is almost half of the retail cost, parts from the big manufacturers are also around the 30% to 50% markup as I have been observing. Just my bike alone when I bought it in January it retailed for $5,000 and I got it with employee discount for $2,234.91 with a $10 donation to a bike charity the company runs. Another one I upgraded my front fork to the factory/ultimate version, a $1,100 ish fork retail for $584 from one of our distributors
Can I buy a bike through you dude? I'll pay you 500 bucks just to get that discount
So 50% of the money you pay simply goes to those moving the product from the factory to your hands. What a scam.
specialized
@@andrewgraham8561 A local bike shop is typically a small, locally owned business. They have to pay their employees, the rent/mortgage on the building, and local/state/federal taxes all while trying to make a profit themselves. Depending on geographical location, their business may slow to a crawl during winter months. Also, they are not just "moving the product from the factory to your hands". The bikes come partially assembled, so they have to finish the build and double check the factory installed parts to make sure everything is safe for the rider. A single minimum wage ($7.25/hr per federal law, but some states are higher) employee earns $15,000/yr. You are not going to be able to find qualified people for that wage so you are going to have to pay more. In addition to just salary, the employer has to contribute to things like unemployment tax, social security, and Medicare for each employee (my example is specific to the US but there are similar costs in other parts of the world). A rough estimate is that an employee is going to cost you 1.25 to 1.4 times their salary. That means that $7.25/hr employee actually costs the owner between $18,750 and $21,000 each year (again you won't find anyone to work in your bike shop for that). There is markup on literally every single product you by because no one is in business to lose money. I think people look at markup in a vacuum and immediately think they are getting "ripped off" because they don't think about the costs of running a business. No business can survive by selling a product at cost. Just having 3-4 employees a decent wage means your shop needs to clear over $100,000 in profit to just pay them. There are companies that sell bikes direct to consumer, and as you can expect, they offer significant savings if you are capable of assembling it yourself.
Why I buy all my bike stuff from AliExpress now.
As someone who rides both this is a great video and pretty accurate!
this video is so good on many levels.... sub+ btw neutral in the end killed me:D:D:D:D
As a road cyclist, mountain biker, dirt biker, sport bike user, and cruiser user, this video was hilarious and shows how both complexity and simplicity fit each hobby.
"Hobby"?
@@paulmares9815 Cycling is a hobby, motorcycle can be a hobby, means of transportation and work equipment
As mountain biker, I see road bikes as scam
@@m0nss7erKill Triathlon bikes are the biggest scam of them all
@@DuBstep115Cycling also a means of transport/commuting, carrying cargo etc
I think the point about buying a high level mountain bike because it needs to be durable and reliable....is kind of a weak point. They make incredibly solid mountain bikes for 1000 dollars (especially on the used market) and a non professional rider will ride just as poorly on it as an 8000 bike. I could understand if they were talking about protective equipment like shin guards or helmets or something...you know ACTUAL insurance to protect one's body.
durability and weight mainly. also just general better function
from my experience id say: no they dont! especially not compared to what mileage a motorcycle has to endure. ask me how i know... cracked two carbon frames in the last year by normal/intended usage. Mountainbikes are neither durable nor reliable compared to motorcycles for their intended usecase
obviously not compared to motorcycles theyre less durable im saying carbon bike frames are stronger than alloy bike frames. motorcycle frames can be 10x as heavy and dont have to worry about most of the characteristics that go into a MTB frame@@HannyDart
@@dannygarland3637 You're dealing with the law of diminishing returns. The value of a $1,000 new bike compared to a $7,000 bike that's 10% better because it has titanium nuts and bolts is of no comparison. And there are a lot of disadvantages to carbon. Although lighter and stronger then aluminum, once you exceed it's breaking strength, failure is more catastrophic with carbon so the financial risk is much greater.
@@HannyDart i'm surprised companies still even use carbon fiber, and haven't gotten sued. It's one of the worst possible material choices for a mountain bike frame...and its obviously not advertised that their frames WILL develop microfractures at every single hit from rocks, drops, falls against hard objects... Dont buy a carbon fiber frame, again.
...and the point you all missed is the bit about the places you are allowed to legally ride a mountain bike. Here in Australia at least, we get public access to bush singletrack, shared horse and walking trails, bike parks, national parks, nature reserves, conservation parks, gravel roads, fire roads & logging roads plus the black top, if you want it. There's no rego, no smelly fuel, no insurance (if you want), no riding endless hours on blacktop to get to a place to ride dirt (we shove the bike in or on the car and drive in comfort to get there) and we also get a cardio, leg and arm - well a full body workout, and our bikes don't weigh 200kgs so they can't pin us underneath them. They are basically silent (eMTB a little less), they don't rip or roost up trails and the mental and physical health benefits are a bonus. Hey we can even tour the same gravel roads the ADV guys do, we're just less noisy, less dusty and a lot slower. We actully get to "bathe" in and enjoy the forests and scenery, not just blast through in a cloud of dust as fast and as noisy as we can. See, there is loads more value in a mountain bike. Do yourself a favour eh!
Just then the bus drives over your friend.
there is no subjectivity. find the value of the raw materials of both items. Then the only thing added is labor. This determines if the products are efficiently produced and sold at a fair price.
It happened during all the covid bullshit. Outdoor activities away from other became popular. MTB riding became popular, specially among people with money. This drove up prices and a lot of people buy bikes now for status.
that, and diminishing returns - if this bike is 80% of full pro - i.e. 80% of a 2 million MotoGP bike - there's a lot of ungildened MTBs way cheaper that maybe reach 70 - 60 or 50% for a fraction of the price. Also it's *purely* a hobby machine - no one rides MTB / trail bikes to work - it's a luxury entertainment item, not a transport device.
Apparently you didn't notice, but costs for everything went through the roof during that time.
prices havent changed that much tbh apart from the fact you may need to source a bike from another country that has stock and import it which has some shipping fees most shops wont just absorb. most supply chain issues fixed now. many of the 2024 model specialized bikes are 1-2K cheaper than the previous gen models
Prices of motorcycles also went up significatly during and after covid, it was always prices quite close
Bike prices and price for quality are dropping fast today.
For dirt/dual sport/street motorcycles, entry level starts around $4-6k USD, mid tier is $12-13k, and upper tier can be anywhere from $17k to $40k+ (stock). My first Mountain bike cost me $500 USD, my mid level neuron is $3k, and we all know that high end mountain and e-mtbs are going to be between $8-12k, but not much more. Road bikes are more or less the same. The used market is another story. As someone who owns a road bike (Madone), trail bike (Neuron), and a street motorcycle (r6), I see this comparison really lacks a true apples to apples comparison of price relative to lineup position. We are comparing a beginner motorcycle to a high spec downhill oriented mountain bike. A duke 390 is the second to last at the bottom of that category of KTM's street line up, whereas that Norco is mid-upper tier. The dentist thats going to spend $8k+ USD on a mountain bike probably isn't looking at a duke 390, he's going to get a GS type maybe the Duke 1290, which is $17k. The quintessential dentist/ weekend warrior motorcycle is the BMW GS,. is a $20k bike.
but the other one is still just a bicycle its obvious that the margins are way higher.
@@byjynydjshsnny2430 100%, of course that’s true when you compare the margins on a high end bike vs an entry level motorcycle. But the margins on a high end motorcycle like a Ducati Superleggara V4 are terrible too. The thing cost $100k from factory, but is still just a motorcycle. I just don’t think it’s fair to start the conversation w “why do motorcycles and mtbs cost the same.” Apples to Apples, they don’t. I feel a lot better about the $5k I spent on my r6 than I do about the $3k I spent on my Neuron. I would love to know how much it actually costs to produce/build a bike vs what they sell them for now, because I think the value is abysmal. The tech may update far more quickly than what you see on the motorcycle side, but it’s also far simpler. Adding something like that fancy extra sprocket up front or a dropper post is far simpler than adding traction control or a quick shifter to a motorcycle. I think the AVERAGE motorcycle’s price and value is better justified when you compare something like a Duke 390 to a high end downhill.
Can't believe you got Johan to be in this. He's such a legend. Great vid. And I love both sports
God your humor is right on the edge of cringe. The timing and the flow does not leave much space for awkwardness and therefore cringe does not set in, because you are back on topic straight away. I have seen so many youtubers ruin content by taking too much time on jokes while you have mastered the art and have respect for viewers time, even those that are here for the information not entertainment. Thank you so much, @FortNine
I am a motorcycle rider, and an acoustic mtb rider. It really ticks me off on the prices of good mtb, and downhill e-bikes. You can even buy new motorcycles cheaper than a lot of preowned Ebikes.
Blame manufacturers for creating tiers of suspension and drivetrain components so brands can charge more for higher spec builds. Entry level crap components create an artificial floor and MTB fans are ok with it. There is no way it is more cost effective from an R&D and manufacturing standpoint to build 3 different versions of a shock and 4 different drivetrains.
Acoustic mtb 😂😂😂😂💯
An acoustic mtb rider...are you having hearing difficulties?
@@johnlesoudeur3653 It just sounds wrong
build one.
Awesome seeing Yoann Barelli in a F9 video. Not sure i love the comparison of an enthusiast bike vs an entry level motorcycle though. In both sports, you can pay a lot for marginal gains. My mtb cost $3300.
One of my favorite FortNine episodes to date!
This is the most entertaining and educational video i have seen in such a long time !
There is a really good point being made at the end of the video about motorcycle ergonomics. It's crazy that every bike doesnt have at least some small level of seat and handlebar adjustabilty as a standard feature or as part of dealer setup.
Kawasaki have the 'ergo fit' system with different seats, bars and pegs - although the prices for the accessory parts are too high in US and Europe.
There are a few things you can adjust with simple tools, RevZilla made a pair of videos on the subject. And then everything else is adding parts, from $39 risers to $390 seats. But you're right, it ought to be complementary if the dealer's gonna charge for setup anyway. Still funny how we have to go with a different number of cylinders to get a different frame size...
Do you really want to pay $30k for a KTM 390 with all those complexities introduced in the manufacturing process?
lately most bike has some handlebar adjustments, and most seats has two positions. So I think at least it's getting better.
Yeah, its very good point when someone says it out Loud. I get bigger frame is bigger change than it might look like but literally no sizing is So strange. I want a small motorcycle and Best thing I can buy for my size is scooter because 125s/250s are usually very small. I dont want to buy 600 or bigger because I am sure it hard to stay in speed limit in city and I See people struggling with the weight of bigger bikes in traffic
"It's in neutral..." cracked me up! I was just writing about the rider to bicycle interface compared to the rider to motorcycle interface. But I still feel that the price of bikes / ebikes is on the high side, especially for the ones a step or two above, the ones welded from, what seems like, gas pipe, sporting buck-a-dozen Chinese hub motors. But one has to admit, the high prices does allow for a huge, overly huge?, range of diversity.
i remember going into a bike shop back in 2000 as a 13 year old and seeing my first "real" mountain bike. it was Kona Stinky Delux and was blown away seeing that it costs around 2grand at the time. fast forward 23 years now I have a government job, living relatively comfortably but still, fuck baying over a grand for a bike without a motor.
It really was a deep yet fun video. Especially the debating part 👍
Paying over $7K for a mountain bike is like everyone paying a $100K for a new pickup truck. If you're dumb enough to spend it, they'll keep making it and keep charging it.
7k is definitely a premium product, but you'd be surprised how easy it is to get to 3-4k while just buying mid-range parts. Even if you build the bike yourself.
Awesome video! By the way I generally agree that bikes are ridiculously overpriced. Until I realized that my bicycling needs are met by a lovely Marin DSX did I just bought for $775 shipped. The thing about actual mountain biking, is that it's pretty radical what people are doing with their bikes these days. I mean it's just extreme, the speeds that they're going and the terrain they're covering, is amazing. Whether they are crawling at walking speed over boulders and fallen trees, or speeding down the side of a mountain and jumping off a cliff, it's insane that the bikes hold up. Granted, none of that riding interests me. But I can still sit back and awe of it. I prefer full rigid bikes, chromoly, BMX style bars, extra large frames so I'm in the bike not over the bike, and I like riding on super smooth trails in nature. Imagine a 10 mi BMX track in the middle of a forest. I don't want to be vibrating my 50 plus year old frame into pieces, hell I didn't even want to do that when I was a kid. I'm all about speed and smoothness within reason, and a little bit of air here and there. I blame my childhood BMX background. As for motorcycles they get stupid expensive too, the last time I looked at a Gold Wing or a Harley full dresser they were half the cost of a little fixer upper shack of a house that I bought in 2010, in Texas. I put in 20 grand and some sweat equity into that house, I'm renting it out to a buddy currently, but I'll probably retire there. It's all about perspective.
At 43 I started riding gravity parks, I'm average as hell too. Thing is I'm doing way more than I thought I could because the bike is so good. I like to say that a full squish top tier MTB is like learning magic, a downhill bike is like becoming a god. They are just incredible specimens of progressive engineering.
You have low bicycle tastes and that's great. Ride a $5000 bike and you'll find there IS a difference.
@TucsonDude maybe not much of a difference for him though. Anytime I take my 8k bike on some mild trail I feel like it is such a waste and I would probably have more fun on a cheap hard tail. Unless you are pushing the limits most bikes are pretty overkill for most riders. Like owning a desmo RR and putting around downtown at 45 mph.
@@NONO-hz4vo Well said. Most people are not doing RB Rampage level riding, so don't need that level of equipment!
Well said! Yeah I think it's absolutely ubsurd the scam Specialized S-works is pulling off with their 10k+ bikes, but anything under 8k is very reasonable to me. Anything past that is way overpriced. It also depends on your riding, a average rider could easily ride a 3k bike and still have a blast, it just depends on your needs and skill level.
I got a norco storm 1 from 2020 for 700usd when the pandemic started. I still ride it to this day and I've already spent 1000 worth of upgrades. Bike prices/parts are ridiculously expensive. (I'm not a dentist)
The cycling industry is really ripping us off. I mean how many moving parts is in a motor bike compared to a bicycle , and they still can't make a round bottom bracket
My neighbor here in NZ has a $19000 carbon fibre E-bike that he bought used for about $12000. The depreciation on these outpace motorcycle depreciation I would think. Probably due to the tech advances noted in the video. I could get a 2 year old KTM 890 right now for $19K with less than 10K kms. Like someone else said here, it's about status.
It's more of a thing where the boutique brands that become reputable in the community will hold their value, because they are made in low volume. A 90s Klein MTB or Yeti is still a 1000 dollar bicycle
I have the “why is your bicycle so expensive?” discussion several times a year. Now I have a slickly produced video with a great cameo to do the talking for me. Thanks for another banger, fortnine! Side note: I was wondering if Ryan ever got back to it after falling badly in that downhill race. Looks like he just got a nice new Sight!
he finally realized he was in neutral the whole time back then.
I've never seen a duke that looks that good. What model is that
I bought an enduro mountain bike (like the Norco in the video) new for $2200. It handles anything I can throw at it. I can ride expert graded trails on it and it's never broken beyond the typical wear and tear of the sport. I've had it 7 years now and plan to keep it at least three more. Seeing people dishing out $8k and more for a bike every couple years is proof that the industry are just charging what people will pay IMO. The truth is that the vast majority of riders don't need an $8K bike. At that price it's a serious case of diminishing returns, and with benefits only high-level racers will really avail of.
2k is still very expensive for a mountain bike.
I dont get it, its supposed to break?
@@mrnorthz9373 I'm saying you don't need an 8k bike, when you can buy a 2k bike and get around 10 years out of it.
@@Liamwillis oh well, i misunderstood you, mb. I was trying to say that the video was talking about how even it can sell for 7000, not its price but youre probably aware of that. Anyway id still argue 2k is still overpriced for a mountain bike.
I had a Norco Shogun BMX bike as a young teen (bought with my own money). I really liked it, for the week I had it. I was selling raffle tickets for a charity fundraiser and when I left it alone for 5 minutes in a townhouse complex, someone stole it and I never saw it again. I replaced with a Supercycle bike that was about $100 and had that thing for a decade. Never locked up, just sitting in the back yard, ended up donating it to Goodwill when it was just taking up space and wasn't getting used.
Great video! I think MTB’s are grossly overpriced. One consideration not pointed out is the severe depreciation suffered by MTB’s. My Santa Cruz Blur dropped 50% in one year. Why? The new model had flavor of the year suspension upgrades. I still have it and it still works fine. The difference is you can get a pre owned MTB for a fraction of the MSRP . It’s the engine on top that makes the difference. By far motorcycles deliver the most value. Best!
To be fair, if its carbon, there is a huge stigma as it were considering they're prone to cracking and certainly delamination. That primarily bombs their used value. Al frames.... uhh... idk
A great argument to only buy on the used market. New bicycles have scary depreciation.
Great point about buying used. I started buying used some years ago and realized upon selling them when I bought my next bikes that I was breaking even each time rather than losing money. My current bike would have had a retail price over $9000 when it was new. I bought it for $4000 four years ago and it could probably still sell for close to that and rivals any new bike in terms of capabilities and features. I doubt I'll ever buy a new bike at the shop again.
@@14erGuy Well mine was cheap because it needed repairs, which were dead easy to fix (thank you for non-mechanically minded sellers!). As a result, I could resell at a profit.
Depreciation is a great way to determine how much something is actually, functionally worth, versus how much you are paying for fashion or novelty. Works for many different things, not just vehicles.
Coming from India, where bicycles too are considered a means of transportation still, budget mountain bikes for fun purposes and entry level motorcycles for commuting/Sunday rides is what i think is the best thing ever. Spending so much on a bicycle is just a first world problem in my opinion (though I cant deny tons of Indian riders are there too buying stupid expensive cycles) but there is no replacement for engine displacement and crotch-rockets are what you need once you learnt how to balance a pedal bike.
Also, did they miss the point where if the components of the mountain bike are outdated in 5 years, you are no longer riding something that's "80% pro level" by the time you finish paying off something you couldn't sell for 1/8 of its purchase price?
as a mountain biker, (having owned multiple mountain bikes with just about the same price range bikes you showed), i agree that its very overpriced for what it is. But you do have the option to go spend 1/4 less and have the same fun, experience and exercise as the high end ones. It's just more satisfying to have access to pro level frames and components and a sense of pride of ownership of your bike when see the pro athletes compete in world cup and you have the same exact stuff at home. I think these prices are more geared towards professionals and sponsored athletes but at the same they make it available to the public to purchase.
Not only that, but I would also argue that owning a lower end bike will allow you to become a better rider in the long run. Without pro level suspension and drivetrain, you have to work harder and learn how to use your body to compensate in the areas where the bike lacks. Also, you will have to repair and upgrade parts more often which helps a beginner to learn the mechanics of the bike and gain experience in problem solving.
Imagine spending thousands of dollars extra just to have the same stuff you see on tv. You’re such a squid 🦑
The apple of the transport world. Buy less, pay more.
It's cool to see how cheap mountain bikes are in first world countries, the same bike here in Brazil would cost at least twice as much as the KTM 390. I bought my 2022 Yamaha r3 for the price of a similar level MTB frame alone.
Look at it the other way around, they managed to make the motorcycle cheap in Brazil through scale and uniformity between models
@@Vaylon. Not really, the KTM in the video still costs 30 monthly minimum wages.
I'm from Br too and can confirm, both cars and motorcycles are very expensive here, people just got used to the prices, but they're unreasonably high.
@ Yeah i should've said "cheaper" not "cheap", but you get my point. The motorcycle's price is lower in Brazil than in Canada, while the MTB's price is the same (which makes it more expensive for you by comparison).
@@Vaylon. The motorcycle price is not lower here, and by a looong shot. the same m3 here cost basically 2000 CAD more. both are more expensive, the only reason the mtb frame here is even more costly is because consumer tolerance
I'm trying to figure out how there are a thousand components on a mountain bike. Even counting every individual spoke, separate ball bearing bearing and springs and washers I still can't make it up to a thousand. Am I missing something?
I am very familiar with BOMs in the MTB industry and can say that 1,000 is an incredibly detailed level count of sub-components but totally possible. Likely includes individual spoke quantity.
As someone I saw on Reddit said half the world commutes or gets around on a dirt bike. The average person is not commuting to work on a downhill bike. Still doesn’t excuse companies charging what they do, but it makes sense why development costs would be higher with a bike
As the owner of a 20-year-old, custom fitted and built Tommasini that would rival most bespoke suits in the amount it measurements and adjustments it took, it really was hard to understand how few factory options my motorcycle had. I guess manufacturers know the aftermarket will fill in the gaps. My Tommasini cost me $13K at the time, and the motorcycle I was riding was only $6k. My current motorcycle is only $9k. I justified the price on the Tommasini because I was an amateur racer at the time. Knowing that the bike was a 1 of 1 also helped with the price. I still race that bike today even though I have several others. There is that special magic in that machine.
I'm just guessing, but the fact your body is the 'engine' would require the need for extremely precise measurements?
@@nailbiter82, mostly for building the frame to the correct sizes. In my case they lengthened the top tube 4 inches over what a normal frame my size would be to take out the twichy nature of just extending the handlebar stem. The chainstays were lengthened and bent differently to allow for more heel clearance. Handlebars that are wider with a shallower droop. Lugged steel frame that is as light as carbon fiber. They even took into account that differences in my arm and leg lengths. like I said, it was like buying a tailored suit. You really got to spec each aspect of the bike. Even the lugs that hold the tubes together had options. The final bike I could ride all day comfortably. It was the same as buying a motorcycle and getting to spec every component down to the type of padding in the seat. It is overkill but so worth it if you ride a lot.
@@nailbiter82 Also, people of very different sizes typically buy entirely different motorcycle models in order to get a good fit.
As a mountain biker i found this video very enjoyable! Lots of these things are what id consider pretty big problems with the mtb and even bicycle industry as a whole.
Yep. The bike industry has lost touch with the largest market, what the average consumer wants, and is instead pushing technologies, labeled as "improvements", that are bad choices for most people. Two examples are hydraulic disc brakes and 29" tires.
@@ADAMJWAITE Lol, hydraulic disc brakes on mountain bikes are pretty damn useful, come on!
@@ADAMJWAITE WTF, did you actually just say that hydraulic disc brakes are not improvements?? JFC basically the worst example to pick, I absolutely would not give up hydraulic disc brakes
@@ADAMJWAITE bruh hydraulic brakes are one of the best improvements out of all of the tech that you could have picked.
@@saturn5mtw567 What I said is they're the wrong choice for MOST people. There are a lot of downsides to hydraulic disc brakes and very little improvement over cable actuated brakes. Namely, cost and ease to maintain. Sure, if you're a hardcore racer or don't mind the cost of paying a shop or spending a significant amount on specialty tools and knowledge, then there are benefits. But that's not most people. It often ends up being cheaper to replace, then maintain hydraulic brakes. Whereas cable brakes are cheap, parts are readily available and they're easy to maintain.
I have a 2022 Specialized Stumpjumper Expert that I paid $6,200 pre tax for. What an awesome bike, down the line I'd like to get a quad or dirt bike.
Soooooo how do you change seat height in the motorcycle?? A 5 foot person vs a 7 foot person should be very different adjustments.
same reason a phone or coffee maker cost as much as a motorcycle....... people have more money than sense
Excellent! You guys are awesome. As both a MTBer and a motorcyclist I appreciate the look into the differences. Another top shelf video!
From the perspective of someone from the Santa Cruz bike and Tesla side of California, I couldn’t agree more. They’re paying for an identity not a product. And like Harley they can charge whatever as long as the marketing team keeps working overtime
"I'm missing something here" "Just your credit card..." 😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂
In Europe Prices the average Joe can get a good Mountain Bike for 700-900 , aluminium frame of course and the rest just good quality parts. For City Bikes it's a bit obscure as you can get a good product for 500 € but due to availability you mght have to go to 800+
That was a great video. Interesting premise, good arguments, great presentation, excellent personalities.
I'd like to thank the academy for allowing me to be this early
Here, Bike cost somewhere around 52,70CAD idk what good suspens in bike feels like, thats a blesing.
In india, 6 7 years back you could buy a single speed cycle for 3,000-4,000 india Rupees. But ever since these big companies like Trek, Giant and all came to India and started dictating the prices, its become impossible to get a half decent adults cycles without spending around 10,000 even from local manufacturers. Decathlon sells cheap cycles for 7k and all but to use that you need to be 5 ft 6 to 8inches and weigh less than 80kg.