DON'T Waste Your Money On New Keycaps... YET.
In this video I talk about GMK keycaps and custom keyboards. And the big problems Group Buys cause. Check out my music as @KadeliMusic! and get a 3 month apple music trial: distrokid.com/hyperfollow/kad...
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0:00 Intro
0:06 Alfred Skit
0:50 Howdy Hey
1:10 What is a GB?
1:30 GBs have Issues
2:20 Some Disclaimers
2:59 Vendors Safe
4:06 In stock Keycaps
5:25 Why GMK Keycaps?
7:10 Budget Friendly Options?
7:41 Alfred Music Video
11:03 Final thoughts/solutions
#MechanicalKeyboard #Groupbuy #Keycaps #GB #GMK #GMKKeycaps #CheapestMechanicalKeyboard #BudgetKeyboard #3ildcat #switchreview #switches #keyboardasmr #typingasmr #cooltech #techreview #techasmr #keycaps #novelkeys #taehatypes #Hipyo #Hipyotech #MKBHD #Linustechtips #GMK #TKC
Howdy Hey! I know my mic sucks in this vid, rumor has it wearing a puffy jacket with a lapel mic is a bad idea.... If you like the surprise at the end of the vid, check out my music and get a 3 month apple music trial for free here! distrokid.com/hyperfollow/kadeli/wanted-more
Howdy hey!
Howdy hey!
Howdey hey!
Howdy hey!
Meanwhile us living in his Basement: We like it here.. Hipyo: .....*sigh* ..... Me: Howdy Hey.
As a n00b to the keyboard game, I have to say the group buy thing is a massive barrier and gatekeeping thing to getting into this hobby, even more so than cost (although... Geeeez, cost). But I enjoy the videos Hipyo, you and Switch and Click are a really easy and fun watch.
Same here. Totally new to the custom keyboard scene, but I really don't want to wait 1-2 years for keycaps that I like right now. I want to build stuff asap, not in 2 years, let alone the fact that I might not even like the keys anymore in 2 years...
Yesss, came here to say the same thing. Especially if you got into the hobby for non standard boards!
same recently made my first build and gmk keycaps would double the money spent on it lool
@@astna you do have an option for clones here, if you do your research you can find some really good quality ones on the par with GMK. A general person wouldn’t be able to tell the difference between the two.
There is a nice selection of in stock keycaps, you just have to look around for something to suits you taste. I'm a about to build my third custom keyboard, neve joined a single group buy.
I don't do group buys, I'd rather get a cheaper set than wait around a year+ for a set that might not meet my expectations when it finally arrives. I think pre orders for a cool set is fine if it's a reasonable time frame.
I agree, It's not like all these keyboards will be in stock all the time. And it will be a shorter waiting time than group buys.
Usually people buying higher end keysets are buying higher end keyboards in group buy as well so the wait times often will be similar or not spaced out as bad if you are just buying a keycap set for your current build. I no longer participate in many groupbuys outside of actual boards. I prefer to wait for extras and if I don’t get one well, I don’t get one. I’m not going to support the counterfeiters and buy stolen designs though as that’s unethical and immoral. It’s your money spend it how you want but these cheaper sets are not the same and please don’t be fooled into thinking they are becuase the sites I see are trying hard to market them as actual GMK products and they aren’t. The materials are much lower quality and often the color matching and legends are terrible as well. You can buy cheaper sets and I often do just please be ethical and buy original cheap sets. They do exist you don’t have to have that designers colorway and novelties those things aren’t necessary.
@@KirballsKeys honestly most higher end keyboards come a year before gmk sets
@@Jack20c in the current lead time and delays happening with every board gb I’m in. It’s not that far TBH. I’m still waiting on boards I purchased in 2020 and there’s others waiting on even older purchases. So depends on what board you’re buying. There has been shortages in everything the past year so to say your board will arrive a year before a GMK set is a little unrealistic.
@@KirballsKeys The world doesn't operate based on what you feel is right. At the end of the day, they are just plastic covers for your fingers and gets tossed out after some use or buy new ones after getting bored of them. If somebody can legally make a near exact product that's more available and at a lower price than the original, then there are fatal issues with the original.
The thumbnail is already a reason to upvote. GMK leadtimes is just insane now
quick, someone a spell that makes more plastic. because without more of it, nobody is catching up.
maybe if people stopped opening new GNS when they know they are a year and a half out at least, it wouldnt look so bad. also if magically plastic was actually available to speed up the process maybe it would be better. sadly, neither of those things are going to happen.
@@adverbs626 if I wasn't a 3rd year math/cs major, I would literally do 50 GBs at a time because it only means higher cash flow with the buyers carrying all the risk. If anything goes wrong, avoid giving GB refunds saying the keycap are already in production and just delay the project by few years.
As a real outsider to the keyboard hobby, I find it odd that they're named "group buys" - seems like an interesting way of marketing to manipulate your thinking They're preorders. I've worked on the custom apparel world and this is just a pre-order. You take preorders for a shirt. Order the screens and blank garments, and order the amount that was pre-order plus a little extra for spoilage. I honestly think the term group buys is manipulation to justify a poor pre-order experience.
Find it odd too. For things that I've bought that are group buys, it's someone dealing with a manufacturer directly for a group of people where the items are shipped to that person and they ship to the group.
The difference between group buys and pre-orders is that usually pre-orders are available at retail and in-stock after launch. Group buys are used to get a specific batch made.
@@cat-le1hf this! in fact to me this is one of the more frustrating aspects of group buys. I missed the pre-order for RDR2 (the video game), which meant i didn't get the bonus, but guess what i can still buy the game years later, with zero issues. Yea i understand that keycaps are a little bit more niche, and i don't expect to be able to buy them at my local bestbuy but the fact is: there are so many cool cases, and keycaps that i'll basically never be able to buy because i missed that one time they were making it
The only difference is group buys are sometimes worse, because sometimes they aren't available after the preorder period. But yes, you're objectively right.
@@cat-le1hfits just “preorder only” to be exact which is also a thing and exactly what group buys are. an artist who doesnt have the means or demand to keep their items in manufacturing for an indefinite period of time to keep them in stock will only sell by preorder to get the exact number of units made from their manufacturer and maybe a little extra to keep in store for those who missed it or only decided to buy after preordering has ended.
I also dislike Group buys but I LOVE the Hipyo version of the Glarses transition sound effect.
it's actually the Filthy Frank transition sound effect.
I think he's subtly telling Glarses to make a new video.
took me a second to notice the transition
@@niko1even I hate that people forget that. Filthy frank really made that transition so popular and it’s crazy how long it’s been around
@@niko1even what video is it from
All this doesnt even bring up two other very important poins: -The huge leadtimes and seeing a great set that just isnt available anywhere is gonna lead people to clones which is bad. -Plus the in stock model would be way better for the designers themselves. Something being available to buy whenever is gonna lead to more sales than a one time only thing. If i could buy a GMK set for 100+ dollars (not american, that is a significant amount of money in my country's currency) and knew it would be there to buy a few months down the line, i could save up to eventually buy it. With group buys that's not possible because from the perspective of people that aren't american or from an EU country with very high salaries, group buys are ridiculous from the point of assuming that people just have that kind of money lying around. The second hand market is just absolutely insane and out of the question here. Oh, and the clones are available for $30 and they ship to you within a few weeks? Wait, the clones are also PBT which is a more durable plastic and less prone to shining? Well, i wonder what most of the not hardcore enthusiasts are gonna choose... Group buys are the reason clones are a thing. Group buys are the reason there is a whole industry dedicated to stealing designs. This hobby has, for better or for worse, outgrown group buys and clinging to it is only gonna drag the whole hobby down with it. And not to mention the absolutely insane amounts of gatekeeping around in this hobby...
Lol, this absolutely! Even in UK, spending that amount on keycaps is stupid, like barely even justified as special occasion money, especially for keycaps. And then its worse in other countries as the base monetary value is often more expensive, plus the currency purchasing power can end up being way off. These things get priced into high luxury categories. Like no wonder its a no brainer to grab clones.
EXACTLY I just recently got into keyboards, and since I don't have the money for group-buys + would rather not wait for 1-2 whole years for a set that I might not even like anymore, I've been more interested in buying clones off of places like Aliexpress. I know it's bad, but at the end of the day...keycaps are just pretty pieces of plastic, and I can't justify paying over $100 for that. Since I don't have the money to be super hardcore about keyboards, I don't feel as bad when buying keycap clones. I could care less what anyone else has to say about that, since it's my money and my keyboard. If the legit keycaps were more reasonable in price and wait time, I would be happy to buy those. But until that time comes, I'm sticking to the clones :(
In stock model is better for the designers but not gmk themselves
I don't know how many will agree with me but I'm in the EU and spending that much money on keycaps is too much for me, not to mention shipping and customs (which in many cases will double whatever you're spending )
I just commented this before scrolling down. In my currency is crazy and not counting that the price never includes shipping, and depending on where you live it can be even more expensive and you have to pray it doesn’t get lost in transit.
This video was casual but had a great quality to it. This is by far my favorite style you’ve done so far. Like I said casual but the effort is great. Keep it up ( loved the colour animations btw (in the music part))
Groupbuys are also the main reason why "clones" exists.
Shouldve made more olivias
@@felixsubakti6907Yonqiu's got our backs
DROP should’ve made more carbon or YDMK wouldn’t have my money
Some of the clones are even ... good. Like, instead of $190 for a complete set of MG Ember keycaps, someone made a $40 clone with improved ergonomics and more color themes. Could get 4 entire sets for the same price, type a little easier, and still have enough left over for fast shipping.
Yeh. Its hardly even a point of ethics considering how bad the key cap market is. Ive only recently poked my head into custom keyboards, but its actually crazy how hard it is to get key caps. Outside of clones, of which some seem to be pretty good at a fraction of the price. Doubly so if its ISO. Like, some of the bigget cap-producers (including GMK) and even big traders are german, but they cant have ISO-DE caps in stock? Like, thats the biggest cap market outside of Ansi-US probably.
It’s funny, i was just talking about this with friends about group buys. A lot of my friends don’t want to wait on keycaps or anything else forever because it just makes them wonder if they will ever get what they bought. As for me. I am still waiting on my GMK striker 2 set that i bought last year around this time. I guess the TLDR is that, if you are willing to wait that long then go for it. For me, this is probably my first and last GB for a set of keycaps.
you are lucky you have friends who remotely care about keyboards lmao
You have a friend who like mech keebs too? Wow. Good for you 😅
@@justanotherpxrson Omg we have the same comment, LOL
@@Miliex_NNK LMAO its like it was meant to be or something ;)
@@justanotherpxrson It's a bit shocking for me when he said *a lot of my friends...keycaps...* Like dang, how did you do that? How did you used "friends" and "keycaps" in one sentence? HAHAHAHAHA. What I hate the most is when I see couple posts on my local online group and they say mushy, stupid things like "..Oh, look at my gf, she's fell into the rabbit hole now. So cute." -_-
As someone who's just getting into the hobby but wants to expand in it as much as possible, Groupbuys look awful to me, I get the appeal.. but I can't see that I'd ever want to wait for such a long time for anything.. If I buy something, it's generally because I want it when I buy it..
I just started to build my own keyboard, and really loved how GMK dracula looks and actually wouldn't mind spending the money for it, only to find out I can't actually buy it. I do wish other vendors take Drop's approach of having popular sets available instead of going the GB approach
Drop is huge and can afford to front the cost. Most custom kb vendors cannot. This is the root of the issue. Vendors SHOULD take on the risk IMO but they don’t because we customers keep entering group buys and fronting the cash for them. It is a cycle that won’t end until the meta shifts.
I also want to have GMK Dracula but I don't think I'm willing to dig through the aftermarket scene just to get it :/
4:20 - fun story. Im in an australian keyboard group and a lot of people got their GMK Pono. They hated it. This lead to DailyClack (Australian store) having it as "in-stock extras". Right now the base kit sold out but at the time, jeez... people are just selling their kits in either retail or lower price due to them not liking the design anymore.
This is common with sets all over the world. That’s why you see in stock sets on sites like Novelkeys, Cannonkeys, Omnitype etc. if extras don’t sell they just become stock items.
I just picked up Shoko off DC and the bar kit off Ilumkb. Paid less than what people are asking for on FB. The only way I'll buy GMK now is through extras.
@@percy543 I only buy extras with the recent exception of evil eye. I bought that to support Manoli.
Black keypcaps with pink legends and a few pink keys. I'd buy this on a whim maybe but I won't wait 1 or 2 years for it.
gotta love the dollar store Glarses transition :D I'm pretty sure that's in some soundpack you can buy, but at this point it basically belongs to Glarses
This is the best thing ever. I’m in a GB for 80082. It’s to go with my Ginkgo65, luckily it seemed to be a fairly short GB, but I’m glad to see more alternatives popping up.
Wait times was one of the main reasons I pretty much quit the hobby around 2 or 3 years ago, and it not only applied to caps but cases too. Now and then when I have a look at what's currently going on I'm baffled at not only how long it still takes some GBs to come to fruition but how in some cases it's gotten worse!
Completely agree - There has to be a better method to get keycaps out there. I'm on two group buys that were supposed to ship last year and I'm still waiting on them. To be clear, these group buy delays were not the vendor or designer's fault, just the nature of manufacturing right now. In the time that I've been waiting for these two group buys, I've bought numerous keycap sets from Novelkeys, Kinetic Labs, and Cannon Keys. I deeply appreciate that there are many more in stock options available, and the fact that many of them are sold out consistently shows there's a demand for those in-stock options. Heck, I missed out on Noel and Fuji from Cannon keys, and the moment they come back in stock I'm buying some. It also helps that these in stock sets are cheaper than getting in on GMK group buys, extras, or aftermarket. 60-90 dollars is expensive, but MUCH easier to swallow than 125-300ish dollars for a keyset.
I'm a product manager by trade, I think I know one thing or two about marketing and S/I management. unfortunately I have to disagree on the in-stock topic: While the idea of getting rid of group buy is ecstatic, but it's also utopian. Keycaps set will not get cheaper just because there are more instock, because it won't be any more instock in the first place when: 1. vendors need to stock up inventory with their own cash, they will be much more cautious with the quantity, this leads to quicker sell out and we are back to square 1 2. new keycaps will come out in even slower pace, because the production line is occupied by producing "in-stock"/older keycaps to keep up with the demand. the price of a high quality product will not drop as long as the demand is higher than supply - Marketing 101 I can go on and on, but I also remembered this is the comment section of youtube, so what am I even doing.. ;) The diss song is dope tho edit: remember, no GMK groupbuys.
Fair points! I do think its hard to know for sure, but we have already seen sales on Drop's in stock GMK. I think when the hype allure of a GB goes away there is a lot less urgency and a lot less sell outs happening. Curious to see how it goes
This is pretty much what I figured. I think the issue is moreso that every step in the supply chain is its own business looking out for themselves. Manufacturers aren't confident about the long term demand for hobbyist products enough to really invest on having the machinery and employees to keep up with current GB rates. And vendors all have their own overhead, so they aren't investing in GMK to subsidize the cost of the machines or maintenance. With examples like Kinetic Labs, they're producing their own brands of keycaps and therefore would have better cause to be personally involved in the manufacturing process. I don't think it's as cut and dry as demanding vendors take more risks. These are related but separate industries that work together, but aren't literally the same business or anything.
This is sort of chicken/egg logic though. Obviously the ideal situation is custom keycaps are mainstream enough to sustain greater availability and economies of scale. The group buy model will never get us there. Keycaps specifically also seem like a fairly easy product to inventory. They aren't all that fragile, they're lightweight, small, and don't expire. While there are definitely fads like in fashion, keycaps also don't really go out of style (if not tied to an IP). There will always be a market for girlie keycaps, for example, provided there's a market for custom keyboards at all. There's also no reason why the Cherry standard will ever go away, unlike with, say, USB devices where you can expect the ports to change every few years. What probably needs to happen is company like Logitech going hard into the business and adopting the Cherry standard. But really anyone with some seed money could probably make a non-group buy work.
This is literally the best video I’ve ever seen!! The skit and music video are awesome! And you still a made really good informational video! That’s all to say thanks so much for the awesome content :)
Truly terrific video, one of the best articulated commentaries I've seen and heard that focuses on fundamental problems with the status quo in the custom keyboards business model. Oh, and the song was epic.
THANK YOU. I've been making this argument in one form or another over the past year or so, mostly to deaf ears or gatekeeping. The problem isn't just the time it takes. The economics of groupbuys is extremely anti-consumer precisely because the businesses involved are essentially passing the risk to consumers while also artificially creating scarcity, which drives up prices. In-stock products will lower prices because it increases supply relative to demand, and also allows for economies of scale. A company like GMK has all the necessary infrastructure and equipment to mass produce their keycaps and drive prices down, but won't because they and vendors feel no pressure when a passionate minority of big whale spenders are willing to shell out disporportionate prices to have their way in the hobby. This creates the vicious cycle and it ultimately serves to exclude the majority of the community from access to a lot of products, while also turning off a lot of potential newcomers to the hobby.
GMK does instock sets. Before you blame GMK, think about how Drop is commissioning thousands of ugly sets from GMK in the forms of laser and red samurai and thereby clogging their queue lines for months. GMK’s keycaps are a sidegig of theirs. They primarily manufacture other industrial equipment, not keycaps. They only do the commissions on the side. I said commissions specifically because that’s how GMK does it. They’re not the ones upholding the groupbuy format, it’s the vendors. And as one of the vendors, Drop is fucking up things for everyone.
GMK is a manufacturer. A factory. NOTHING. ELSE. People still seam to misunderstand this. GMK does not do groupbuys. The vendors do. GMK doesn't give a shit about the sale format since they are not the ones that decide how the sale is run. GMK only produces keycaps on request by the vendors. And if a vendor wants to keep keycaps in stock they could just ask GMK to produce a fuckton of those caps for them and they would do that. Just like Drop does it. But most vendors in this hobby aren't as big as Drop, don't have as many employees and not as much storage space. And all of those are things you need when you want to keep things in stock. So most of the smaller vendors opt to run smaller runs and keep less stock because it's easier for them to organize. And small batch production takes longer. With literally EVERY manufacturer on this planet. This isn't something GMK specific. If you ask any plastics manufacturer if they would rather produce 10.000 units of one set or 1000 units of 10 sets they will always pick the first one. Because for the first you have to set up your machines once and just run them for a while. For the second you have to do the setup stuff 10 times. It's simple economy of scale. And GMK aren't the ones to blame here because they have no say in which keycap designs get manufactured or how many units are produced. They are just the contractors that do the work for the vendors (and designers) that picked GMK as their manufacturer of choice.
Before anyone else tries to explain things I already know, yes, GMK is a factory, which is different from a vendor. You know who else are factories? Kailh, Gateron, JWK. All these are OEM's who produce many other electronics other than keyboard stuff. Yet, the stuff they produce for even the most niche parts of the keyboard hobby are made in sufficient numbers to stay in stock between numerous vendors. Chinese vs. German is not relevant here: GMK as a company already mass produces lots of other things. They are not a small struggling upstart business. The size of their company means they have the capacity to produce something efficiently and in large numbers to achieve economies of scale. The keycap side of their business has gotten big enough that it's part of their website. They can work with vendors to drive prices down by taking the best selling designs and increasing production scale on those to be in-stock items, at much lower prices and wait times. They don't because they feel no pressure from a community where big whale spenders are willing to throw money at them for an endless stream of limited run items. Of course, it's not just thet factories' or the vendors' fault. It's the community's as well. There is practically no other hobby in the world where the community is so stuck up it's own ass that we can't see how much we're stabbing ourselves in the feet. We in this hobby are practically asking to take the risk off the shoulders of manufacturers and vendors if it means getting something made. This self-image of small-time suffering artists who need to help and compromise to make their visions a reality is outdated and really only makes sense in the top 1% of ultra-endgame keyboard kits. It's clearly not something that should still apply to the mid or upper-mid tier products of a growing hobby. It's time for the business model to change.
@@Boyetto-san Drop already works with GMK to provide instock GMK which is just another problem compounding on GMK groupbuys taking so long. GMK isn’t even the main problem in this hobby because they were practically carrying the keycap sector of the hobby until recently with delays related to covid and resin shortages. There are many other keycap manus that do jack all. No one points fingers at JTK who took one year plus to finish a keycap set, even before covid and shortages. No one points fingers at Signature Plastics for taking two years for SA and KAT sets, even before covid and shortages. Neither of these manus even run that many sets. But nah, it’s GMK that’s the problem right. The manufacturer with 100+ sets in queue that carried the keycap sector hobby for years with only three machines. The queue clogged by this weeks hot new shitty weeb set made by some kid designer is why sets take 1yr + these days. Keep in mind it’s still faster than JTK and SP lmao.
@@mena4108 To be clear, like Hipyo up there, I only point to GMK because they're the most prominent OEM that accepts job orders based on groupbuys. I've already said that they're not the only problem, but rather the whole mentality of groupbuys as a way of doing business in the keyboard hobby. I'm sorry if the GMK sets Drop keeps in-stock aren't to your tastes, but it would be very counterproductive to just go back to patronizing more limited-run groupbuys that will basically clog up GMK's queue even more. Rather, the hobby needs to encourage more vendors to keep their own range of in-stock GMK sets, based on their own customer feedback, to help normalize GMK's production process and drive prices and wait times down on average. Keycaps are already a significant part of GMK's business. If vendors can maintain a consistent range of sets that can normalize the number of designs GMK needs to accommodate at a time, they'll have no excuses not to allocate more of their capital towards expanding production capacity there.
Man you can tell how much effort and creativity he puts into these videos.
This one has many hippos, i know the more hippos, the better quality. So, yups. True that.
I'm new to diy keyboards/custom/building your own from parts; a big part of what stopped me from attempting to get into it was when I tried looking for a nice keycap set I liked and saw that every one I liked had a lead time of 6months +. Due to this I was put off for a very long time, probably 5 + years. Thankfully I eventually sat down and did my research and finally got into the hobby.
Love these kinda Glarses sound effects between the scenes. Keep it up!
I think group buys have a place in the hobby, SO LONG AS we have plenty of in stock keebs and keycaps so that people who are interested in the hobby can jump in before they lose interest 😂
I got into keyboards because your videos kept showing up into my feed, so I got into it pretty recently and have bought a keyboard and 2 different sets of keycaps from ebay and e-commerce this month. I had a look at these 'group buys' while chatting with keyboard enthusiasts on random unrelated discord servers and was shocked to hear they waited almost a year for a set of keycaps and it's hard to justify why I should go for these group buys myself. If you're into scarcity and authenticity which is probably part of the hobby, I guess the long wait times and high prices are worth it. And just like you said, by the time I got the keycaps, I probably no longer want that design. GB feels like a scheme to artificially inflate the price and demand to create the sense of scarcity, so these vendors can rake in a lot of cash with the hype. But one thing that fails to capture a grasp of GB appeal for me is the keycaps itself. I don't think the designs are 'unique' enough for me to go for GB even if I am willing to pay for it, I feel like I can just go look for the next best thing with a reasonable shipping time, or I could dig deeper into questionable clones with designs just as good for cheaper and potentially better manufacturing method. Maybe I'm too new into keyboards and I don't understand the appeal, but if anyone can change my mind on this, maybe I'll get the appeal.
The only two reasons to do groupbuy are either flexing the scarcity, or if the design is really attractive to you and nobody is selling a good quality copycat of the design. In that case I would immedately just look for a different design that I like, but some people struggle with that, especially if it's in a semi-rare profile like XDA. Normally I would feel a little bad about buying a copycat set because artists do deserve some kind of compensation at least, but I just won't spend as much time or money that they're asking me to spend for the genuine set when I can get it in less than a week for half the price and 85-90% of the quality. There are plenty of high quality and good looking keycap sets even on Amazon (have to research to find the good ones tho), and I feel bad for the people who think groupbuying overpriced keycaps are the only way to be welcome in the hobby.
It's funny af when you ask what set they ordered and then you find out it's just a dual colorway with no novelties
thanks for the frank throwbacks. Don't know if its a staple of your channel, but love when youtubers pay respect to the greats and play off eachother. good stuff
Couldn't agree more. I fell in love with GMK Phosphorous from Hamaji's video and was crushed when I found out they were limited run.
For me the whole reason to get into group buys is ISO compatibility. And no, I am not talking about ISO-UK. The problem is that there are very few keycap sets that have ISO-NorDeUk compatibility in-stock (sometimes with horrible kittings) and I don't wanna talk about other ISOs, I am waiting for one GB with ISO LatAm compatibility which is extremely rare and I haven't found any keycap in stock with that compatibility.
Agree 100%
What is this mythic ISO Latam set you're talking about? The only thing that has been putting me off from building a custom keyboard is exactly that, there are like 5 PTBR keycap sets in the whole world and they're all crap
@@vinrod1802 it is ISO Latin American. It's for the Spanish speaking countries in Latin America and it's different than ISO-ES which is the Spanish layout.
Is there a way you could link it to me? I wanna check it out
Indeed, that's why I ended up buying some random godspeed knockoffs from AliExpress, they have full Spain ISO compatibility, that's the closest I'll get to LATAM on a budget
Have to agree with the overall sentiment, waiting so long for something you might not love when it arrives is pretty killer. For some people, that wait is perfectly acceptable, for others it isn't and I'd like to see things improve for those who don't want to wait potentially 2 freaking YEARS for plastic. Great vid as always, keep it up Hipyo!
I watched the premiere and watched the video again. Thank you for addressing that topic and that song is very very cool (first time commenting a Hipyo vid!)
Good song man, I like how you do different characters in your song. One of my favorite bands WEEN does that a lot. Good job dude
It’s been 1.5 years since I got into GMK Beta, my first Group Buy. Still waiting but this month looks like it’ll be recieved by the warehouse ( I hope)
This is completely anecdotal from what I've seen via vendors/reddit/forums but part of the problem I think is GMK as a manufacturer themselves - think about how many keycap sets from these groupbuys they agree to make - obviously this begins a queuing process. Getting the colors right, getting the legends right, actually manufacturing them, shipping them out. Now multiply that for every random keycap set that happens to get through. Then you see the rush jobs people are getting from GMK groupbuys - imagine dropping 200+, waiting 6 months to a year only to get a spacebar that won't even lie flat on your desk. If GMK agreed to do like 12 sets a year (1 for every month) and keep it tight then maybe we wouldn't have to see these nightmare stories of dudes waiting a year+ for what is essentially just multicolored plastic that could very well end up warped.
GMK is clearly a part of the problem, as it seems they are still taking on orders which are barely worth their time.
Another big issue with GMK is simply that custom sets are a very small part of their business. To the point that they could stop accepting these requests tomorrow and be perfectly fine. It doesn't make sense for them to prioritize a $100k order from keyboard enthusiasts over a multi million dollar order from a company making bank teller machines.
Love your videos. Never built a mech keyboard, only ever owned the Microsoft Sidewinder X4. But the moment I have the expendable income and the time (i.e.18 yrs from now) I'm in this rabbit hole neck deep
been binging from the start of the channel....i might be almost caught up??? got like 30 something videos left o.o U ADDED TO THE DISSTRACK OMG fantastic as always!
Agreed! The influx of group buys with no regard to mounting lead times and superfluous switch designs made it easy to break off from this hobby and move onto other interests and concerns (while I leisurely wait for my remaining group buys and news of more delays)
I literally built my first keyboard today and i think groupbuys are really blocking me and others from getting into this hobby
i agreeeeeeee
I've built two keyboards without any groupbuys and can easily think up about a dozen builds that all have unique components, including keycap sets. Groupbuys are really toxic to the keyboard community because it makes some people think you actually have to use them which is not true at all Edit: if you like the design of a keycap set that you just can't buy, i know how you feel. it sucks and i don't like groupbuys at all primarily for this reason. but its definitely not the only way to get good looking high quality keycaps
Even more so when you're a student that doesn't get allowance from daddy AND living in a 3rd world country, like we don't have hundreds of dollars lying around
@@chiizuu752 damn, I hope your ok lol
How though? There are now other ways to get into keyboard building without having to delve into groupbuys???
just stumbled on this gold trying to learn about keycaps before i drop a bunch of moneys on plasticccc will definitely be back again really enjoyed this
Cant wait! it’s always good when Hipyo uploads
Do you think Kinetic Labs will address the fact that polycaps Seal is a much lower quality than Whale and Octopus are while remaining the same price as Whale and Octopus? Interesting choice to plug that set.
The only GMK set I own is Sloth literally because it was in stock from a vendor. Otherwise, I know Akko gets shit for being clone sets, but their Red and Blue Samurai set is like 25% the price of the Drop GMK Red Samurai set with comparable options.
Akko's are definitely the way to go for the money.
And akko does pbt
its cheaper because they are unlicenced clones. but as you said, you know that.
@@adverbs626 I don't think the licence would be $100 per set sold
@@adverbs626 well they dont copy noevelties tho and at the end of the day keycaps sets are a mix of 3 colours i dont think u can license that
Great vid Hipyo! The music vid was kinda lit can’t lie! I agree with you because I live in the UK and it’s even harder to get them here where the market in my opinion is not as large, start shipping stuff in and paying customs fees then a 150 pound set cost you 200-300 it sucks :(
Order gmk deskmat from a group buy 6 months ago! Thanks for the hope!!
After my experience with striker r2, modo r2, 8008, amethyst, and more i will safely say i'm done with the gb model. for ~$50 more on in-stock sales to me is definitely worth not waiting 2 years for a keycap set i might not even want when i get it
It's hard to imagine wanting something as much as when I paid for it when it shows up if it takes that long. It really kills the fun.
Howdey hey hipyo, I never realized how much i need something that i already have before finding your channel. I like your vibe and appreciate the amount of content you have. Im trying to get into the hobby but the group buys are a huge turnoff, its odd in this age of instant gratfication and 2 day prime shipping to have to wait so long for for something that seem as trivial as key caps. The cost is a big enough barrier to deal with without also having to wait for a year or more to get into the hobby. That being said, keep doing gods work.
Love the video, especially the transition vocals!
i know from a post from gmk that they are almost done with an expansion and covid affected them getting plastic. also with domikey coming into play it will add more manufactures able to make more keycaps and i know signature plastics is a small operation in Washington state. i also reached out to kinetic labs and they said they plan on bringing other language support and in stock keycaps to venders here in the eu. i think with time and the hobby growing things will get better and maybe someday a group buy will only be more like a preorder and they will come in a couple months. who knows. get video 👍
Let's be real, the amount of plastic required for a keycap set is really small. Most of the resources required are time and labour. The issue here is prioritising large orders over small ones, which is standard practice in most fields. It makes way more sense for them to make one long run of a high volume order than several small runs of multiple orders because changing tooling takes time, getting everyone ready for finishing ready takes time, and then making one big shipment is less of a hurdle than shipping several different parcels, possibly to different places.
Drop is a LOT bigger than nk and similar vendors. I buy gmk from drop only these days or in preorder period from vendors where wait time is a lot lower.
I signed up for a GMK group buy back in April 2021 and I just got a notification like a week ago that they’re being shipped. Really wish I considered my options more.
Nicee video very relatable. Imagine waiting for the gmk gb lead time when I cant even wait the in stock shipping time😅 only gmk keycaps that I own are the in stock from drop
I want to build a mech keyboard. But the group buy aspect is absolutely mind bending, and it's sad for so many people to get priced out. It's wild how some manufacturers are still doing group buys when it would be more feasible for some to scale up manufacturing and offer up more in stock items. If Glorious can give me a purple top plate that would be swell
Upon getting into the hobby, I was amazed at how ridiculously expensive keycaps are. And it's completely obvious most of that is overhead, it's not costing hundreds of dollars to produce these damn things, an "expensive" set should be no more than like $80. I have other hobbies worth investing more money, I wouldn't wanna cheap out on a car parts, for example, and understand the cost of said parts. Keyboards, on the other hand, are the opposite. I ain't paying $100 for plastic whether I gotta wait for them or not lol
Big dick opinion. Nobody cares about the hairline sound it’s going to make as a difference either
Even tho i think i would probably buy GMK sets if they were in-stock cuz some of them are just perfect for me and I'm not the type of person to change keycaps every week so it wouldn't be that bad to save up for one and use it for like 1or2 years. but i do think that this is another huge problem in the hobby like seriously up to $150 for what's essentially colored high quality plastic is just hard to justify for me i believe it has to do with paying the designers and the whole covid situation and how they operate. But i think for now GBs are of higher priority because it's a huge part of why this price is hard to justify imo for this premium pricing i expect to at least receive the order in the same year.
@@user-ke1gn3ql1g you could literally buy another case for a keeb or, another keeb hahahaha
@@stewpidmoney6634 This hobby isn’t about being practical or budget minded. For a lot of people it’s about getting the absolute best of the best and pimping their shit out to the greatest extent possible. I don’t give a rats ass if I can get another board if it means buying cheaper keycaps. I want to make a board with all the best components regardless of price (within a reasonable margin).
Great video, I totally agree. The one thing I can think of as a benefit to GB is that if it takes a year, inflation means by the time they're delivered 2 years later you've kinda gotten a discount. But I'm still not doing it.
Agreed on the group buys. I haven't participated in a lot of them, mostly just ones that run for shorter and I've still found the experience awful. When my Ikki68 Aurora R1 finally arrived, all of my excitement for it had dissipated. I joined Kuro Shiro R3 last year in August and back then I considered it one of my holy grail sets. Now? I think I'm just going to sell it when I get it. I love my GMK Laser, which I got second-hand for pretty much retail price, and I would love to have more GMK sets but I'm probably never going to join a GMK group buy. We need more in-stock, for sure. Unfortunately, vendors with in-stock sets like Drop, Kinetic Labs, and NovelKeys are still inconvenient or inaccessible to folks like me outside of the USA. Also, this is a great-looking video. Nice shots, backgrounds, graphics, visual effects 👍👍
seriously, at this point there shouldnt be groupbuys for bigger companies (well for smaller companies that's "ok"). To me companies that has released big hits shouldn't have groupbuys cause if they have the budget to not do groupbuys
Imo group buys should be exactly that groups/communities pooling their resource to go to a manufacturer. If your operating a company you should not be using groupbuys. As a profit making company it should be your risk not the customers.
howdy hey it’s hipyo tech
No it’s not!
Yea its ok! Not Hipyo Tech! YOU ARE IMPERSONATION SOMEONE! THATS AGAINST THE LAW
@@miyulwank bro I was doing that the pantomime thing. You were meant to say oh yes it is
@@miyulwank he*
And i was doing something called not following a joke :)
I'm not really a keyboard enthusiast, but these videos are very entertaining. Also the song straight up slaps my guy, good job.
I just got into this a week ago doing my research before deciding and yeah group buys are in a way to keep the costs high
I get how group buys are that popular, they feel kinda exclusive, you know like they also make you feel like you are a part of something. This group of people buying expensive keycaps. I'm not saying it's wrong or anything but it indeed keeps on creating a barrier between those who just want to experience what a mechanical keyboard is and the other ones who may feel superior cause keeb gang
That's just sad lol. A person need validation of his existence based on bits of plastic 🤣😂
I stand with you. I've been in the hobby for about a year now and I completely avoided GMK. Waiting one to two years for anything is ludicrous. Tai-Hao and Domekey are high quality enough and they come fairly fast.
isnt tai hao pretty thin? also they are oem profile which im guessing is a huge reason nobody talks about them
@@justanotherpxrson yeah it's really thin ABS and quality is way worse, even on newer ones last tai hao keycaps i owned was really bad (chocolate factory set). sprue marks on every brown caps, random scratches, finishing is not even, and overall sound is just not good
@@nu3566 They have great double shot PBT caps. I guess the quality is variable.
@@DCkogsch PBT double shots are not great. They are inherently bad because of the difficulties of double shotting PBT. The only good modern PBT double shots are on Leopolds.
@@noidsuper what about tai hao sakura michi
if you do want GMK keycaps imo the best way is to just wait until an in stock extras sale happens, as most do
I just bought a keychron and had 0 intention of ever modding a keyboard. I even bought the non hot swappable version to save a few bucks... But damn this is satisfying content to watch. Maybe my next keyboard in the future will be a custom!
Great video! I'd love to see one on Akko and their high quality, in stock, but not always the most "original" keycaps.
I wonder if Alfred has got the keycaps yet
I just got the samurai set from drop like a week ago. It's on sale now, for anyone interested. It's like $70 for TKL. I put them in a CTRL HP with lubed kailh box creams, durok stabs. It's like butter. I ordered the LOTR elvish set too, only have to wait a month. Drop is the only way I will participate in group buys, and is my go-to for keycaps. I have several MT3 sets from them.
i wish more companies did what ymdk is doing with cherry profile doubleshot backlit keycaps. that would probably go over well with people who wanna get into gb type sets and mix and match colors
Weirdly enough i personally love group buys. Unless they get delayed over and over again. But just being able to forget about it and suddenly getting a happy surprise is nice for me
i can barely stand waiting 2 weeks for a delivery
@@mohawk4759 that's sad mate
7:27 and I think that’s why some vendors still do group buys. They don’t risk having excess inventory. My assumption being the vendors still doing group buys have a specific profit margin in mind that they want to stick to completely, but I can’t say I blame them for that.
WYSI
WYSI
@@sleeprighthere ?
My worry with in stock only is that people who want to create their own sets won’t quite have that opportunity. The risk becomes much larger for the vendor and I feel like we might see only large creators get the go ahead from vendors for designs that will guarantee sales.
The risk SHOULD be on the vendor, not the paying customer. That's absolute nonsense and will dry up the more niche parts of an already expensive hobby faster than it already has, with most of the revenue going to commercial, mass-produced keebs and keycaps.
Been listening to Serpentine on repeat since I got the release. Such a vibe while driving around on a sunny day :))
I received my first gmk set a couple months ago and was so extremely disappointed. The time and money is not worth it. I’ve had pbt keycaps with just as good quality that also sound better (I know sound is subjective) gmk packaging is also disgusting for that price point. Till something changes I will only buy clones from now on :)
Right on. Don't let the gatekeepers on their moral high horses dissuade you from clones. The fact that they're made of PBT instead of quickshine ABS is already a compelling reason enough why clones are desirable and SHOULD exert competitive pressure on GMK. It was always one of the dumbest things about this hobby that people are willing to bend over backwards for GMK as being desirable and to shield them from competition, when they're clearly a stagnant manufacturer who don't care enough about the keyboard hobby to bother expanding their production capacity or improve their materials.
@@Boyetto-san Couldn't have said it better my friend..
@@Boyetto-san you do know that there are other options out there that aren’t necessarily clones right? no “gatekeeper” gives a shit if you don’t want to spend 120 bucks on a set, the problem comes when you’re totally fine in screwing over a designer who is just a member of the community as you are, you’re not hurting gmk they don’t care, you’re hurting a small designer that took the time and money to create a product. you CAN buy things on a budget without fucking over designers, there are TONS of options out there in pbt or whatever material you prefer, you’re not forced into buying clones, you just want to justify your shitty morals.
@@seabrunin Yeah, it's apparently not gatekeeping when the hobby runs on a business model where the original desired products are mostly limited-run and will get scalped for several times the price on the second-hand market. Gatekeeping isn't just the direct individual intention to exclude, but how much people defend a status quo that in practice excludes others. I have all the sympathy for the designers, but they're not the only ones whose benefit here is at stake, especially when their original product isn't being made anymore, and they hence already got all the money they were going to make from their design anyway. I just choose to also care about the end-consumer and just how much the upper-end of the community is willing drag everyone else down to take the short end of the stick, inflating the plight of creators at the expense of the rest of the community who didn't happen to catch the GB, didn't want to wait a year for the product, or who couldn't afford the asking price just because the designer chose GMK to manufacture them. And just so you know, I've never bought a clone set myself. I argue this out of principle.
@@seabrunin i think it's fine to buy clones if it is literally impossible to buy the design you want, as is the case with many past GB designs.
Whilst I generally agree that group buys kinda suck and it would be better to have things in stock, I have a couple issues with this video. First off, you're entirely right to say vendors don't want to take the risk buying in stock sets, which is true. It's true, because a lot of the sets we see in groupbuy barely make MOQ without vendors stepping in to front their own money to get sets over the MOQ. Vendors already take the risk funding group buys as is, and if I was a vendor, I really wouldn't want to pay GMK for the manufactoring time (this is important, GMK don't charge by the set, you can't just pay a flat rate for, say, 10,000 base kits, you pay for the time it takes to make those kits, which also pushes back everything that is in production for group buys, funilly enough), to get a set in stock that I didn't know was going to sell well, sure if it's something like BOW, WOB, Olivia, I can understand that, but with many sets there's just no guarantee they're going to sell, and asking vendors to take out loans and take all of these risks, especially with so many sets coming out all the time, is a bit of a weird ask. Secondly on the KineticLabs point, at least with Seal specifically because it's the one I know for sure about, you've said they've taken the risks and paid a lot to bring a set/sets in stock. Seal is an Apollo clone made by the same manu that you can buy from on AliExpress for half the price. That's not that big of a risk. Maybe for the other sets it's different, I'm not sure, but selling pre-existing clone sets for a huge markup isn't a risk. On Drop, notice how the sets Drop have are well known, popular sets. They can take the "risk" because they have a bunch of capital to do so, and they know they're going to sell, a la my first point. On the lowering wait times, GMK are already doing so, and have been taking steps to lowering wait times for the past, what, year? Two years? It takes time to set up the production lines and make up for the lack of silicone for their moulds. Did they take on too many sets over lockdown and throughout 2020 and 2021? Yes, definitely, but they have been fixing it, and we should (hopefully) see GMK wait times starting to go down as they take on fewer sets and work through their backlog with their new lines. Keyreative was purely a manufacturing blunder, they decided to switch from Dye-Sub to Doubleshot without any prep towards actually doing so, which has pushed their sets back years as they get their lines going again. Not a problem with the group buy format, that's specifically on the manu. As for other manu's, I'm not too sure, probably a similar issue with the silicone shortages for moulds for companies like Signature Plastics and so on. There are also multiple new manu's for keycaps making waves who have significantly shorter wait times than the big players, case and point Milkyway, who have a 3-6 month wait time for their sets, so there are new places to go to as a designer wanting to sell a set but not wanting people to have to wait a year. Also, from this video I know that you're talking about keycaps, but when you say "group buys are a problem" that means *all* group buys. That's limited run keyboards, that's limited run switches, that's everything. And I think asking individuals who clearly don't have the money to run in stock keyboards to pony up the cash from thin air to pay for hundreds and hundreds of PCBs, plates, CNC'd Aluminium cases with no guarantee that any of them are going to sell is ridiculous, and there should be some sort of nuance provided when you say "group buys are a problem" because that just doesn't sit well with me. This is all without even considering that pretty much all the big keycap manu's we think of like GMK and SP, don't make most of their money off of the keyboard hobby. In fact they could probably stop making keycaps for us altogether and barely see a dent in their profits. The fact they even give us the time of day is really something that shouldn't be taken for granted. To wrap this up, do I agree that group buys kinda suck? Yeah. I'd love to have more things in stock as it really only benefits the consumer. As it stands though, not everyone is made of money, not everyone can afford to just will things into stock, and we don't *deserve* in stock sets from big players in the game. What you want to try and start a conversation about is good, I just don't think you make a good case for it at all.
Well said.
10yrs ago I got into mechanical boards with the original Quick Fire Rapid TKL. Loved the Cherry feel and got brown, red and blue versions....then I when it came to the enthusiast market it seemed like it was 110% group buys at the time and said screw keyboards and just focused on PC hardware. FF to today, needed a wireless board and now ended up with two Keychron K2....looking at all the fun enthusiast stuff and am blown away of how available parts are now but still PISSED that group buys are still such a thing. If I knew more about keyboards I swear, business opportunity to just invest a crap of money and actually keep things in stock.
Hey Alfred & Hipyo, is that dope track also available on Spotify bruh?
I love how everyone has done the glarses transition even linus has done it
I absolutely hate this hobby . I just bought my first mech keyboard to replace my broken membrane one, and now all I do is look at keycaps and wish I could buy them. When does the pain end?
He's only gone and said it. Great points man
I learned about keycap groupbuys (and general custom mech kb GBs in general) insane lead time for the very first time from THIS video about a month ago… And here I am again just coming from my 3rd keyboard groupbuy order today… 🤪it’s hitting different.
Group buys are what allow a small group / single person to actually make this kind of product. They don't have the money to put forward to do an in stock buy. Saying a blanket "group buy bad" removes the ability for the hobby to progress and for people to innovate.
I totally agree with your theory, but I have something to add, gmk should use dye sub pbt and remake popular versions of there keycpaps like this in an in stock version and continue with the abs version on grupe buy
Has someone just started the hobby quite recently even (with a gmmk regular full size) , an option if you don’t want to wait that seems reasonable low cost / quality wise easy to obtain are Corsair Keycaps (if you like me seeking ISO - AZERTY FR layouts that really hard to find ) even in it's not the same as GMK or others, it's maybe an option to consider. It seems that big brand getting closer (like razer , corsair and asus), so maybe more opportunities will come with more customization. I don't know what's thoughts in the community on these ... but it's perhaps a good start for Newbies that don't want to do group buys and have better quality first key caps. Could be a good video comparing these agains GmK , other brand , clones , cheapers one .
Yeah I stopped doing group buys and kickstarters for keyboard stuff now. There's just so many on their way this year that I ordered last year.
May be request a video on spacebar sizing I'm lost on what 6.5 u or 6. I or whatever they use to classify or measure
This is sooo true. As someone who wants to get in to the hobby, this is what is keeping me from diving in properly. I don't want to wait years for my stuff.
I am really late to this video, but man did you hit the nail on the head. I am wanting to delve into custom keyboards and seeing i pretty much can't do much other than mod a mass produced keyboard, spend around 1k on my first keyboard, or wait a year for damn near any part other than pcb or generic switches. Really makes me wanna just stick with my pos prebuilt mechanical keyboard lmao
Yep, I made that mistake once, albeit it wasn't even a group buy, I was just a numpty and didn't read that it was a preorder. Ordered it some time mid-2021, and they just delayed it a second time from Feb of this year to like April I think. Pretty sure it's for a set of really basic looking double shot PBTs too. Regardless, I'm happier with the Pudding Cups I bought instead, it captures the RGB better, and gives the whole board way more color.
I feel you. I really do. I saw a bunch of videos on the Zoom 75 and then I really wanted one. They even had colors I liked. But then I learned about this Group Buy thing and I immediately thought, "Um, no." Luckily, I was able to find a nice prebuilt board with a marbly thock, the Cidoo V84. I didn't even know you could get that kind of stock sound quality for $139. It was so good stock you even made a (numpad) video about it. Oh, and best rant ever. Normally I get annoyed at someone droning on and on about their pet peeve but I didn't even mind this time since you made a music video out of it.
There's a keycap creator/shop that is very intent on trying to eliminate group buys, and instead stick with an in-stock model! They're called osume, their keycaps are so gorgeous, they can get sold out but they keep you updated on when sets restock!
Nothing like a Hipyo video with the best thumbnail I’ve seen in a while to start my morning off right 👌
Completely agree with you! Especially here in europe its almost impossibe to get anything in stock :(
I ran into this issue the other week. Wanted to get into custom keyboards but ran into a lot of long wait times for caps. Said no thanks and just bought an epomaker th66 in one of their stock configurations. Its ny first board but I have no complaints and it should serve as a solid starting point if I ever wanted to swap switches and key caps.
Group Buys are so frustrating sometimes. Because sometimes they never leave IC, and it's a massive turn off for some (though quite understandably). If I see a keycap set I like, I'll just wait for extras usually.
I've been in the hobby since 2016, and I remember when group buys were basically the only way to get customs. This was before gmmk and keychron, and other keyboard & keycap vendors. Now though, with so many options available, vendors that can afford the upfront cost should be able to do proper market analysis and take on the inventory so they can compete in this new market. Basically they need to move on from the old model of group buys, or they get left behind. The burden of risk should be held by the vendor who can afford to recuperate in the event of loss, instead of the consumer. Thanks for the great video Hipyo!
Thanks for shedding light on this debate! Wish vendors would look at this video and take more risk
I'm lucky that I love the blank keycap look. (though it makes a challenge for anyone to use my Dactyl Manuform for even a quick thing)
The song at the end went hard as heck! 🔥🔥
I've only done one keycap GB, and that was for Analog Dreams - it's a set I've wanted when I saw the first shots from the initial GB years ago. I do have to say the wait sucks and it's not 100% you'll get them on the proposed deadline, look at GMK Dracula and there are more that people haven't received after 4yrs. I tend to lean more towards instock as I get that instant gratification over waiting and hoping not to be disappointed since they might not look like the renders in the GB. Also r/Mechmarket is bad for resale pricing as people tend to scalp the hell out of the pricing of sets.
Man, I've been looking at the Analog Dreams 2 set but missed the boat. Suppose that's the other downside of groupbuys, I have a whole list of keycap sets I've been ogling that just aren't being sold anywhere because the GBs ended. Some of the more popular ones have clones (which is its own issue), but some just seem to be one-and-done.
My NPBT Fuji set is arriving in a couple of days ordered 14th of this month. My order of GMK Fuji…. Who knows
well when you buy a gb it can be aa nice christmas gift to yourself a couple years later when you forget about it and it shows up