OLD SCHOOL vs NEW SCHOOL.. 700HP MK4 SUPRA vs 550HP MK5 SUPRA
2024 ж. 9 Мам.
2 438 640 Рет қаралды
#toyota #supra #dragrace
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Man you know how to time these releases J-bro.. just sitting down at my desk for a killer Sunday morning sipping my steaming extra hot Starbucks Venti Toffee Nut Mocha. in Virginia Beach, VA..
damn.. i thought old school would have been a lot closer.. technology ftw..
Do it again on a dry surface and give the MK4 some real tires. Outcomes will be quite different
Please do a manual transmission vs Manual.
I agree with you
The mk4 supra is definitely not 700bhp lol with a quarter mile time of over 13 seconds and with a dual clutch transmission unless its been setup all wrong
Well to start, those tyres are nowhere near enough for that kind of power
Defo my heavier f80 M3 stage 2 with 550bhp max runs 12.0 with no launch definitely an 11 in it
@@ph3d It’s newer tech mate. Iv smoked a lot of older ‘big power’ cars in my 700 bhp m3
No grip and looks like driver was short shifting, would be good to see that again in the dry
Newer tech doesnt explain the shitty 100-200kmh time. It should be in the high 5's or low 6's. Ok, the road was wet, but still...
Drag race starts at 05:52
Thx bro
😎
This really was too helpful
Thx bro
Tq bro..so much tq..huhu
Massive respect to the Mk4 owner for keeping it so civil, well done!
I always love the roll races because that's how it's done on the freeways ..and you don't have to worry about the tire burn out from a drag start
I think the new supra's turbo set up and technology brings it on boost so much earlier. plus its gearbox is geared to keep it in a constant sweet spot in relation to its power band. This is a good example of how peak numbers are not necessarily the deciding factor in how quick a vehicle is.
Also traction control vs no traction control in the rain, you could see and hear the mk4 clearly spinning 1st/2nd/3rd. A dry warn day I would say it would be neck and neck in the drags and the mk4 would take the rolls easily.
That’s because it’s a bmw twin scroll turbo engine haha 😂
Very well said, also the way the traction control intrudes ONLY enough to keep traction. Car tech is wild!
@@_Professor_Oak I'm no so sure that traction was even that much of an issue here. It appears to me that the new supra makes more overall wheel torque 'throughout' the race due to how efficient its turbo, engine and gearbox are.
@@speed9539 glad somebody said it 😂 the b58 boosts so quick!
Back in 1993, mk IV was a weapon…. And it’s still delivering nearly 30 yrs on! Respect ✊
Well back in 93, if you mean stock, it made old schools 320hp, still a lot
@@marekmecir5822for the 90’s that’s equivalent to the 500+ numbers we see now. That’s actually wild Toyota did this
so much more grip in the mk5, the little aero tweaks, height, suspension setup, tire size, tire compound, less weight, better gearbox, etc. etc. , yea this makes sense also just better driving in general
Mk4 probably needs more rubber, and the Mk5 probably delivers the boost a lot better… I don’t think the mk5 broke traction, which makes a massive difference. Both beautiful though and great content.
Mk4 owner definitely taking it easy off the line in the drag race. Small rear wheel and more tire would have been great. Great races
Granny shifting
I think its MK4 traction issue on the damp ground
Yes and I was totally thinking of the same thing!
He can't drive. The guy in the mark4. He scared of the car. Nothing but early shifts he did
What do you expect people in america don’t even know how to proper set up on a car.,
Awesome race!! Love the new supra, big things coming to this platform 🙌
You know what I can’t be mad at that 7spd Dual Clutch trannie on the mk4, kinda blew my mind as a guy who keeps on working on my 02 civic (that sat for 7yrs without running) extensively to keep it running lol
Should be in the 10’s with a good set up at 6-700 wheel lol… my 400 wheel sr20 180 consistently timed 4.2’s and 4.3’s to 100, it’s not even squeaking the tires into 2nd, my Mazda 3 does with traction on, my old focus fried halfway through 3rd and my 180sx chirped into 3rd on semi slick 245’s.
I stumbled across your channel a few days ago, and my goodness is the content great. So I started binge watching loads of your vids much appreciation and thanks for all you do 👍
Your in for a treat 💪 every single video Jamie has done has been top drawer 😎😍
You have a lot of catching up to do great chanel 👍🏾👍🏾
Try start from the beginning bro, you'll get a really good sence of the journey of the channel and its journey to here today. Love that energy Jamie brings hes an enthusiast through and through ✌
Same
Welcome to arguably the BEST AUTO channel on the planet. Much love from VA the other side of the pond.
the mk4 pulled harder but u can tell the higher it climbed the torque broke the wheels loose uv got to be a good driver to modulate a machine like that
ithas 2 modes: on and off due to a big turbo, no matter how you drive
I love this kind of videos makes me laugh 😂 is weird when im on the track all the time watching 2jzs making from 1000 to 2000hp sweeping the floor with the new bmws(supras) jejeje
Things I've learned about DSG cars via my 2008 R32 is that they are inconsistent from a stop vs a torque converter automatic. From a roll, in the right gear, the DSG car, if it has with more horsepower will be hard to beat, unless the automatic has a race converter.
Love that MKIV, no matter how the race would’ve went, I would always be a huge 2jz fan. Probably cause I was born in 1991 and I’ve got a massive sentiment to 90s cars. That MkV though 👌🏻
MkV still an I6 bro. I know the 2JZ is legendary, but times have changed it seems.
The only import engine in the world in the 5s is the 2JZ. Think about that!
@@ytsux9259 And it is NOT a daily driver, is it? Who cares about drag cars. They aren't racing dragsters in this video. By the way, it's almost 6 seconds. Nowhere near 5. LMAO
@@snipeyopipe4163 It's in the 5s, almost 6 seconds is in the 5s, 0.1 second before 6 is in the 5s, 0.00001 second before 6 is in the 5s, in no way was anything he said remotly wrong but u on the otherhand. A handful of mistakes, drag races proves actual engine reliability tunability and performance
@@snipeyopipe4163 still an i6 with more hp capability than any american v8
Mk4’s turbo was too big, wasn’t spooling up quick enough. Needs some tyres and an lsd if it hasn’t already got one. Not sure about the dct on the mk4. General setup didn’t seem right. Either way, both great cars and massive respect to the owners 👍🏼
or the driver was scared of the power, cause thats what it looked like to me letting off every time his car got sideways thats where you build your boost, shift and the car should hook straight
@@stiffler69er I've seen people stay in while they are wheel spinning, by the time they shift, they are already at full boost and go even more sideways. Its damp outside, and those tires need to be warmed up at least
B58 spools faster than 2jz
Yeah that mk4 is a waste with that tranni
Prob has lsd
The MKIV is wheel hopping like crazy. That was the killer. Man so sweet a MKIV with a DCT.. perfection.
Much luv 4 both. Cape Town South Africa
Nathan is a top lad - that MK5 is an awesome build and I’m glad the MK5 hate is starting to die off - Lee’s MK4 is a great build as well but I think he might have been better off with a slightly smaller turbo that spools quicker
B58
And more tire in the rear. Losing way too much traction.
Not necessarily a smaller turbo because you can get big turbos that spool quick, he just needs one with a lower rpm boost efficiency. Or nos to spool it up
He needs to stop short shifting so much
Z4 hate isnt dying off. Its getting worse because they are getting older and and people realizing they are indeed BMW quality. Plus the design is still barf inducing and will be completely obsolete in a few years, like the last Celica.
Awesome video guys. I think the results would differ on a dry track.
I’d take the mk4, but it’s close. I agree with another comment, seems like mk4 owner taking it easy! Great sounds.👍👍👍
ANYONE seen man like Ricky last I heard he had gone on the rock and roll........ officially gassed killing the four wheel scene 🔥
Thank you for the Video. The old Supra didn't drive fairly at Roll Race. he drove through the line with momentum and was therefore faster at the start.
Was a savage day, thanks for having me down bro & big up lee’s incredible build 🫡
🏁🙌🏽
What an awesome pair of cars!
We need to do it again without the rain and craters in the runway!!!
@@ControlStrategy yesssss santa pod day
@@ControlStrategy you coukd tell how bad the surface was
The best duo dont exi…☠️🗿
The grandfather with new baby 🔥🔥💙
Mk5 looks absolutely stunning and can move too🙌 The mk4 think I’d be asking my tuner what the hell is going on.... Great work guys
Nice 1,both cars look good but I would go for the new school .
I like both cars but it’s 2022 and I have a 21 GR Supra and it’s a great car for DD and Road Course Track Days.
I'd put a turbo 400 with gear vendors overdrive good converter and trans brake in the mk4 before a dct. Preferably just keep it manual.
This has given me a new look on the mk5 supra and the B58 engine imagine both the mk4 and mk5 both running similar bhp 🥵😍😍
Some much hate for the mk5 because people don’t want to hear that it’s much better than the mk4.
The B58 is a masterpiece, it's the mid range torque that shocks most people. A stage 2+ B58 M140i runs into the 7 second mark 100-200.
@@duncanlang922 it was design to be better ….ofcourse its going to be better….90s car vs a 2020 car with all the fancy tech…..for me the new supra is awesome but they missed what made a supra so legendary …i was expecting the interior design to be more driver focused like the mk4 …but they made the mk5 into just another new fast car …we already have that 🤷♂️…..this is why people keep calling it BMW and making other jokes
@@duncanlang922 ofcourse its going to be better. The mk5 is 20 years newer. I havent heard anyone deny that. You dont hear people saying the 1965 gt500 is better than the 2021 gt500 for example
Wouldn't even be fair 😂😂
The sound of that 2jz is insanely beautiful
get rid of the ott pop and bang map on the a90, and it sounds genuinely decent. great match up guys
That was epic race
Got nothing but love and respect to the MK4 , but I chosed the MK5 coz it's newer and can be easily modified to 500+ HP. Loving it so far
2j can make 1000 on a stock bottom end it’s quite famous for it
@@streetcarstv5088 every car enthusiast knows that .. but many people don't know how much it cost to reach 1000HP .. it's alot of cash mate . On the other hand for the MK5 to reach 500HP , it won't cost you 3500$
Also , believe me , it's time we look beyond engine power numbers or WHP numbers ... this video is just one example that shows how 500HP modern cars can keep up with bigger beasts😁
@@streetcarstv5088 Yeah, they can make 1000 HP on the stock bottom and still run a 12 sec quarter lmao Just look at the leaderboard in this video. Supras run terrible times for the power levels they make, which would be excusable if they’re also weren’t terrible on road courses. Legit dyno queens without a TON of cash sunk into them. At least they’re good looking
@@MustafaAli-85 you're right about 1000hp costs, but 500hp on a MKIV is just a downpipe, exhaust and maybe a front mount intercooler. No tune needed, just pull a vacuum line or 2 although I prefer a boost controller. This was the recipe for 500hp in a MKIV 25+ years ago. Stomped almost everything then, but not so much these days.
The mk4 has a huge turbo on it and I think that its driver was changing way too fast to fully spooll. Moreover the mk4 struggles for traction when the mk5 has so many systems that help it to stay on the road.
respect the mk4 owner❤
Could someone please tell me exactly what body kit the mk5 has please i absolutely love it , way more tasteful that a wide body kit ... what parts it has and who makes them would be muchly appreciated mate 🇦🇺💪🏽👏🏽
It must be absolutely insane to own a car with these amounts of power. Especially if, like me, you're only use to a fiesta
It's definitely a wake up. I went from a boosted BRZ that I had for nearly 5 years. The BRZ with all the money in it doesn't even begin to touch the Supra. Doesn't cost much more than the BRZ per month.
Nothing wrong with a fiesta!!
@@paulharper4196 I think I saw two of those last week. They don't look like they'd melt you, but sexy for sure!
What fiesta you got nothing wrong with that nippy cars
Me owns a tuned Palio 1.8r 😂 but at least i am quicker than a new fabrics civic sedan 2.0 and same speed as the new corolla sedan aswell... But civic drivers are always mad becouse they think they own a badasscar which is 5 times more expensive than mine but my palio is quicker haha
Nice runs. Was the Supra running less power than 750hp or did it spin in the wet? My 700hp manual MKIV went 100-200 in 6.1 sec measured with the Dragy app, so 7.4 secs is quite a lot slower.
Yep my 700bhp m3 2jz also does 6 sec 100-200 I think it’s either because of the damp conditions or it’s not actually running the power stated 👀
Wow I've seen a BMW DCT in a 900hp RX-7 that was amazing, really sick seeing it in a supra
I believe good tuned around 500bhp is more then enough voor a daily driver ... After that you get some issues to get all that power on the road, etc..
Mk4 wins the 2 roll races where he was starting to spool by rolling onto it before the line. Effectively neutralising the Mk5s advantage.
Exactly. Good discerning there.
Well that wasn’t fair because in the last 2 roll races the mk4 had higher beginning speed of the line
@@dimitris9573 redline
Agree, the MK4 was coming from the back likely at higher speed. To make it fair both need to line up at same speed by the pick up point
How about if they both were 700hp mk4 has no chance lol 😂 but mk4 is what most people like
Hey Jamie when we getting to see the bmw 335D again? I love to give it a loving home 👌😉. Keep up the great work
If that Mk4 is 700 horse he’s definitely not giving it everything. Also funny how quiet the Mk5 guy got on the last roll race lol
I'd say its 100% making 700hp. On every roll it always pulls ahead with 200 more hp it was 2 car length ahead.
Mk4 supra was rolling into the Starting line, reducing the Slip, the guy in the Mk5 Everytime would back off a little than WOT and break loose.. Both incredible cars All Supra love very impressed by the MK5 against the old school Monster.
Amazing how he got humbled and grew 10 years older when doing the roll racing, he is a good kid
Unfortunately modern cars being easy to drive make people into heroes for pushing a pedal down
What a incredible race! The old supra was definitely struggling for traction if this was in the dry i believe the mk4 would of won more
would *have
I doubt it. The new supra is on boost so much earlier and its gearbox is geared perfectly for its power band. Traction didn't seem too much of an issue.
Nope, traction isn´t the problem. The new Supra has the same benefit, if the traction is better.. Ihr müsst mal checken, dass schnell gerade aus nicht die einzige Disziplin ist. Fahrbarkeit ist das *A* und *O* .
It won't. Doesn't the rain affect both cars or no? I changed my tires cause I moved to WA...rain definitely affects the mkv also lol
@@joshuadqueen Rain affects the one with the worse tyres in the rain more... Mk4 has fucking rubber bands for tyres and the mk5 looks to have proper tyres on it
I feel like the new tech BMW parts really have not been set up right on the Mk4 Supra, and I feel like the driver has such an attachment to the car he doesn’t want to damage it, great races though abs and a automatic gearbox on the mk5 really did show it how to run the new tech
love my mkv but the way that mk4 sounds tho!
I think that MK4 has a lot more in it. Suspect the driver was holding back on the drag race. Great cars great match up nonetheless! 😎
He couldn't put power down. And power band is narrow and up top. It's not gonna win from a dig
I think the mild hybrid turbo system in the new supra is the deciding factor. It creates boost much earlier and has a more effective power band. Also, the transmission is tuned perfectly to keep the engine at peak power. The smaller rear tires and heavier wieght didn't help either.
Some people cant admit defeat
Seeing them side by side makes me realize how similar they are
I love the mk4 supra but man.... that mk5 has grown on me the past couple years!
This video would of been epic if it weren't for the rain..especially with rear wheel drive cars. Why does it rain so much there?? S55 DCT in a mk4 supra? Amazing!!
Good race.👏🏽👏🏽 Both cars I’d have in my garage 💯. Would love to see a rematch on a dry track.
Rematch on the track would leave mk4 behind
B58 delivering the goods 👌 awesome video
that dude DCT finna blow
The interior camera shows the ride quality of the mk5 is much better, less rattles. But wow 13 second 1/4 mi for the Supra with 700hp… my 91 MR2 with 350hp runs high 12s.
Now that's the race we all were waiting for 🥵🥵🥵
On drag i knew the new supra had it because newer cars usually have much better traction than old cars. Well on the roll race i thuaght the 700hp 2j would destroy the b58 but i guess i am wrong
I like these videos but would be good if you quoted figures in Mph as in UK.. give both of needed.. Mph makes more sense
The MKIV never gets old, it's still one of the most beautiful cars.
Man them new supras are soooo much better looking than the mk4
No !
For the old supra, considering it’s age. It’s still had an awesome run.
It actually didn't, because of the 700hp it couldn't put the power down hence taking longer to get to 60 than a stock car.
Aye regardless how fast the new supra is it will never bet the old school never
That Mk 5 😍
New tech makes a huge difference. 500hp now is like 800hp - 900hp 20 years ago
Hp will always be hp, itis the same.. that never changes , what makes the difference is the gbox, ecu and computers technology that makes every thing work perfect not the hp. The efficiency of how the ecu plus engine plus gbox manage to work together.. Hp is the same. 200 hp in 1993 is the same as 200 of today.
@@carlosbarragan1673 weight.
@@carlosbarragan1673 yea that's what I said.
Idk about that I gapped a 580whp mk5 on low boost
Great comparisons! I would have to say I'd prefer the MK4 just because of how nostalgically awesome they are and more on the Japanese side of this sports car. That new one was done up proper and handles the quarter mile nice nicely over the MK4. The roll races is where the MK4 was able to keep it's power to the ground and take home a few W's. Great content.
And reliability.
The B58 is a new kid on the block still,waiting for more and more tuners to crank more power out of that
@@seansiew5629 It definitely has some good power! Wonder how much HP someone has pushed the stock engine to?
@@BOOSTEDDUDE for now that I know maximum power on stock block is 650hp on B58 alone
@@seansiew5629 The only import engine in the world in the 5s is the 2JZ. Think about that!
OG all day over new ANYTHING.
Old soup 🍲 prrraaa !!! Driver let's off a lot
The mk4 is obviously a legend and one of my all time favourites. BUT the pops and bangs of that mk5 are just brilliant.
After watching this the MK5 is growing on me. They happen to be a lot more affordable than a MK4.
For now
@@whatupguy5685 doesn’t matter lol
as of now the mk5 supra is the best pound for pound sports car for $60k. really does deserve the title of supra. perfect mix of affordability, reliability, and capability.
Mean while there are 1500 HP Supras WORLDWIDE, manual shift that will leave both of these Supras like the never left the Start Line.
I like both of supras
The DCT breaks traction on the gear change where as the ZF is much more smoother. If the MK5 had 600bhp with a full hybrid setup he would win everywhere.
If the mk5 had 600 he’d win
Nice pure800 sort things out
If they werent on a bumpy damp air strip the MK4 would win everywhere.
@@lw1878 A car that performs in all conditions and surfaces is always the better car.
that mkiv is 475 whp at best, very similar mph to my supra with a 6spd, I was running low 12s at 122 mph with 500 whp dyno sheet. I ran 10.8 at 135mph with 700 whp BTW I was at 2292 ft elevation on those passes, not sea level also my targa car weighs in at 3495 lbs
Agree 💯 the mph tells the story. That's definitely not 700hp
My 93 six speed Mark 4 Supra ran mid-130 trap speeds on low boost (18 psi @ 650 rwhp & 575tq) with a 76 mm turbo running 93 octane pump gas. That car is definitely not 700 rear wheel horsepower.
I live 800 ft above sea level. My Supra was also a targa top.
I ran a 12.002 at 125 mph @ around 500 rwhp with street tires. I think I was on a 63mm with stock fuel system and intercooler with the stock ECU and a VPC.
I ran an 11.71@119.6mph in my mkv yesterday with a 1.9 60 foot. Bone stock aside from a jb4 piggyback and some e30 fuel. The mkv puts down the power very efficiently. Catless down pipe and a real tune can put you in the 10s with a tire.
Tech and traction win every time
Mk4 sounds like traction control is fighting the power so much and is spinning so much
Very surprised what happened in round one considering the extra 150bhp advantage 😳👀
Only built auto supras are fast. Stick shift is a completely turd.
Peak power doesn’t tell the full story. The mk5 will be on boost way earlier and probably has quite a flat power curve compared to the mk4
@@TheBb6prelude 6-sp stick 2JZ Supra holds the world record for the quickest H-pattern manual transmission in the world. 😏
Owned a lot of old school cars, but I’d go with the new Supra just for the comfort and modern features these newer cars have.
Same. I'm not sure why it gets so much hate. Hardly a bad thing having a b58 in it.
@@stichupman also the old supra is massively overpriced for a 30 year old shitbox
@@anti4107 overpriced yes but it’s not a shit box but the mk5 definitely did grow on me
@@Yueymosthated most are shitboxes and still overpriced because of the age of it and how common it was in japan
Officially gassed can u plz take the mk4 wheel, it need a better driver, and also a r154 or a S1 sequential shifter
MK4 is a perfect mix between aggressive and beautiful
This one is slightly tough, honestly for me I prefer new school over old school always have always will don't get me wrong b58 is a Marvel of Engineering it's already a great platform to start from and it doesn't take a lot in order to make it brilliant while remaining reliable (from what I know and what I've seen that's my own personal opinion JUST SAYING 😀) on any given day I will choose new school regardless of the car brand my personal favourite are German cars always have been but in this case of Germany vs Japanese I choose both because I have a soft spot for the Iconic MK4 and its respectable 2JZ platforms of N/A, twin-turbos & single turbo straight from factory for their owners to choose from back in the early 90s over-engineered platform that modern sports cars with the most significant contribution of technology at their disposal that's able to run back-to-back anywhere anytime any conditions confidently but as soon as a MK4 Supra pulls alongside them it's crazy how confidence, arrogance and the cockiness disappears and that tells me one thing or in this case two things you scared because there ain't no such thing as a standard MK4 I've never heard of a standard MK4 or the other thing is probably reason why most of us was so into cars, it's the Pinnacle of where highly tuned began,may even be The Fast And The Furious franchise I don't know why but everything still comes back to one Factor which is the Respect part going up I was always taught to respect my elders and in this case I feel pretty much the same it's been around for about 3 decades feared and respected I've literally just always had a soft spot for them and come on........ you're ever heard of someone who is building their new car and the 2JZ platform is been used tell me that doesn't mean it's serious because all I hear is RACECAR "I bet you if the 2JZ abbreviation was added to a dictionary what do you think it's definition will be let me give you a hint it won't be the engines code name it description should read as follows CRAZY FEARED NEXT LEVEL POWERFUL SERIOUSLY SERIOUS" HAHAHA I'm messing around now but it's more Iconic than a supercar, it's most likely the best example of why we love and are so fascinated by fully built engines and tuned cars there's more than enough reasonable examples all from a mk4 2jz perspective sound of it dumping boost pssssssssshh where I still make with my mouth If you don't like the 2jz then you are clearly not a car guy or you suffering with RB26 fever which is also brilliant but doesn't mean any because R35 GTR has presents but what is a Mk4 Supra is parked alongside it what would you find yourself looking at🤔🤫😏lol
too much
Bro how much time did this take you to write 💀
The only import engine in the world in the 5s is the 2JZ. Think about that!
@@Skylul He's a mawwwwrooon.
Wow 😣 too much.... old always better
Older dude was cheating a bit on the rolling start. He was going a bit faster than the young lad by the time they reached the line to nail it.
Always same with these role races, pace setter gets jumped on
@@24k__J The Mk4 Supra started much later on the roll to get up to speed. But they were the same level once they reached the line to floor it. If he started much later as you can see in the video, then the only way for him to be possibly at the start line the same time as the Mk5, is if he was travelling at a faster speed.
@@24k__J 😏
German engineer 🙌🏽🙌🏽🙌🏽
Old school 💖💥
mk4 really struggling for traction, he had to let off the gas on the first roll race from drifting off the strip🤣
Dann bricht die Power zusammen, darum hat der alte Supra ja soviel Power. Da gibt´s nur *AN* oder *AUS* . Aber das wollen die ganz Schnell&wütend - Bubis nicht wahr haben. Erstens sind das Filmautos, die handgeschaltet einen Scheiß machen, aber keine 10 Skunden und zweitens ist Leistung nicht alles.
B58 > 2JZ Change my mind
100%
Yo baba I didn’t expect you to watch this channel lol.
Amazing what almost 30 years of tech can do
In the decider, the mk4 gets such an unfair start by speeding past the mk5 right at the line
Why would you put such a big turbo on the dct mk4, you wont rev high enough to be on full boost.
The old school is fucking Amazing SUPRA MK4
Them cups 2s was not happy they needed some heat
If the mk4 supra had 305's on the rear I think the outcome of the race would of been different.
the mk 4 is haveing a very ruf ride
The 1993 supra probably at lower in boost because of that transmission it’s cool but manual shifting would make him win if he’s good at it
Homeboy spent a lot of money on that old school Supra to get whipped over and over by another Supra with way less HP. 🤷🏻♂️🔥💵
Didn't make it through the video to the roll races huh?
@@lw1878 I did, but as much power as he’s making, it doesn’t put it down like it should. Not worth the money to me it seems.