Arrows Vs Brigandine
Brigandines were steel plated armoured jackets popular in the 15thC across large parts of Europe, great against slashing cuts, good against impact, but how good were they against arrows? Shall we find out?
I take my trusty 'Lockdown Longbow'; a crossbow that shoots medieval arrows at the same speed as a 160lbs traditional longbow and shoot 4 types of medieval arrows at a section of a medieval brigandine replica.
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Arrows came from www.medievalarrows.co.uk
Although I shot the hell out of this brigandine, I explained that they were historically made of all manner materials and thicknesses, but what I can say is that Ash, who made this sample and the pictures shown, makes excellent Brigs in exactly the materials you want and his details are in the notes.
Hey Tod, may I ask you whether or not you would shoot a living lamb? I don't mean to be condescending, but it irks me to see you laugh about the blood of a baby animal on your arrowhead. I get that somebody else killed it for you beforehand, but that does not change the fact that somebody killed an incredibly young animal for your tastebuds and, let's be real here, absolutely superficial addition to a very interesting test about armor. I'd love to hear your thoughts on this.
@@MultiPenners you forgot to take your meds again?
@@BlaBla-pf8mf wanna talk about it for real instead of trying to score points from people that think the same as you?
@@MultiPenners I don't waste my time taking for real with crazies and fanatics. Snark is the biggest effort I'm willing to waste on you.
@@BlaBla-pf8mf well whatever you say I am, it was an honest question. I hope you enjoy your upvotes
Can we appreciate how cautious he is with his assumptions ? It's an indicator of intellectual honesty and it's really something we need.
And the fact that the title of the video is not : The TRUTH about Brigandines!!!! Incredible, you wont believe - must see!!!!
KZhead videos by amateur historians that end in broad, sweeping, definitive conclusions are why I'm not subscribed to Shadiversity or Lindybeige anymore.
@@harveywallbanger3123 unfortunately that is also the case with academic historians and their “conclusions.” For example female Vikings. We simply don’t know but the media jumps on it and people act like female Viking warriors are a fact even though we don’t know (on a large scale extremely unlikely anyways). We do know less than people think about the past. A lot of it relies on theories and conclusions based on scarce information (archeological or written) but people read “facts” on Wikipedia and in the media based on someone’s opinion in academia which is often just a guess.
@@harveywallbanger3123 that seems a bit misrepresentative.
@@harveywallbanger3123 While I like both those guys, you have to take what they say with a grain of salt. There are some more professional historians getting into you tube film making. The key is to ask yourself, "is this person starting with a conclusion and working backwards, or is he starting with sincere questions and trying to find an answer? To give an example, look at the history of slavery in America. On one side you have neo-Confederates who are trying to prove it wasn't so bad, or that slavery and racism were not major drivers in American history, or a cause of the Civil War, which is ridiculous, and on the other side you have well meaning guys who are trying to show how bad slavery's stain was on America's history, and they come up with historically inaccurate conclusions, like "slavery was the primary cause of the American Revolution." (Please note, it played a significant role in the revolution, and was a stain on the colonist, but it was not a cause of the Revolution, as Slavery was legal all throughout the British Empire, and it was only after they lost Virginia, the Carolinas, and Georgia, and the economic influence that came with them, that abolitionist were able to get a foot hold in Parliament).
As a member of the distinguished craftsmen of the Armorer's Guild, I'd like to say... this is why you don't buy armor from a tailor!
suit yourself ;]
If it was all you could afford...but it was also probably fairly popular for officers on warships.
@@repletereplete8002 - What a tagline for a armorer.
@@repletereplete8002 A very cutting remark ;)
Do you have any inventory of premium studded leather armor with premium hardened steel studs?
You, a peasant “Don’t judge a book by it’s cover” *Me, an intellectual: “don’t judge a brigandine by its linen”*
That's a good one!
Them: "You know what? That is exactly what I said, but, a more intelligent way of putting it. A point for the commoner."
How to be fabulous for less money
Given that a book was worth as much as a farm (houses, livestock and ground included) in the early middle ages, I'm not sure this one works.
@@SenselessUsername You'd be amazed how many nobles were smart enough to know that peasants were the life blood of a nation and out of pity tried to keep them supplies figuring if they are better learned they could better prepare tasty things. Sadly not as many as there should have been.
Wonderful job, I love your videos
Hello, noble one.
Thanks Metatron - appreciated!
Tod's nobility is through the roof
Tod is for sure a Noble One.
Ah yes fellow history lovers
Now I know why there are so many archers wearing brigandines on medieval miniatures. It protects the arrows - you can remove an arrow from your chest and shoot it back!
Savage.
I mean, you might be joking, but if you had a decent amount of padding under this.. You actually could.
@@GundamReviver show us in vidéo !(personally I would not try)
@@GundamReviver "Decent amount" more like 10 cm 😆
it an effective and fairly cheap armor to make not the best but good
"What's a brigandine?" "Think of a metal shrimp in a leather jacket." "ah"
Pangolin, crock/gator or armadillo, inside out (don't be gross just the layering) plate armor; turtle or lobster, Gambason; elephant or bulldog, chainmail; ... (not a clue).
@@jmoneyjoshkinion4576 Chainmail: Giant ground sloths that had bony plates embedded.
Comment on the "Dragon Scale" modern ballistic armor. It made a splash around the 2005-2008 time frame, and was marketed as multi hit protective Level III or Level IV hard armor up to 7.62x51/54mm AP rounds. It did work well in both tests and in a few battlefield incidents. The idea behind it was that the smaller scale type ballistic plate would be both more flexible and take more punishment than contemporary monolithic ceramic SAPI plates. each round that struck the wearer would only strike one or two of the "scales", thus preserving the rest of the armor. With a monolithic plate, one or two rounds would break the entire plate into several irregular pieces, leaving the wearer extremely vulnerable to follow on strikes. The monolithic plates also have a tendency to break if they are handled to roughly or dropped on their edges. The problem with the Dragon Scale was that in storage containers it could exceed 140 degrees Fahrenheit, and this would result in the epoxy glue that held the scale matrix together to fail and shed plates. Obviously, this was not an insurmountable problem, but the cost of the scale plates was already prohibitive and they were heavier on a plate for plate basis compared to an E-SAPI plate. Granted, their coverage and comfort were better, but it was considered far too expensive to make the switch for what is, quite frankly, a limited improvement to the existing body armor.
At least they weren't showing up to the gun fight in scrapped together brigandine. 😅
Wasn't it also very heavy?
I feel like it still has/had a place. Sucks it seems to have disappeared.
The heat thing what I also hear about dragon scale armor, but now that I'm older and more technically minded I see a even more simple reason. If a single plate broke how would you know? They were glued in and even if one scale broke during wear it would literal holes in the ability to stop a 7.62 round. a SAPI plate could just be replaced, but checking and changing out a entire vest would be difficult even in garrison conditions much less at the FOB.
Also keep in mind, that the durability problems with existing armour (hitting it on an edge, or shattering on impact) only occurred with ceramic plates. Level III and IIIa are usually is made of steel, which can stop multiple impacts close together. Since many militaries and polices hand out Level III or IIIa the advantages were even smaller.
This whole "lockdown longbow" series has been SO fascinating and fun to follow along with! Thanks, Tod!
Beat me to this comment by a minute
Very true :)
Thanks and it has been great for me too, because I had some questions, but so much has just come up along the way
I agree. I like them alot.
Whoa! Josh Yaks! What up, bud!? It's so fun to see people I'm subscribed to interacting!
I really love how you specify everything! Like "yes, the arrows gone through THIS brigandine, but..." because it really makes people think about the topic in a deeper way! Lovely videos!!
This really is a huge and important point that so many people ignore. They say, "Look! An arrow went through! Armour was SHIT lmao!" Meanwhile, the truth is that a half-inch of penetration isn't going to stop that knight from running up and chopping your head off while you're trying to reload that crossbow.
Yes!! Finally!! was dreaming for this vid to arrive!
And I made it just for you
Thank you but im sure everyone else is as glad as I am for this video :) From these tests now I see why the English and some Asian cultures practiced so rigorously with heavy bows
I want to see a plate cuirass now!! I can't wait! I really can't! Damn good video! And I have a brigandine for my reenactment.
@@HistoricalWeapons it seems like unless you have full plate armour you are not arrow proof , must’ve been terrifying to see your armour getting penetrate and would’ve affected morale on the battlefield regardless how deep penetrated
@@rildraug they have done a video about this which Tod references in this video as a myth buster
I have two comments : In France we have multiple evidence for brigandines being products of guilds with the accompanying regulations, including proofing of different levels. And, Cordebeuf, knight from second half 15th c. (presumed) author of some texts on french battle orders, states the typical arrows of (french) archers are barbed heads. I am interested to see that the T16 here did not actually penetrate past the barbs. I.e. it would not cause the specifically severe injury that is expected. Now this is just one test arrow and not a repeated stat, just a fun notice. Very cool film as always.
Thanks and I was speaking from England where they seemed to not be controlled by guilds. The barbs were about 10mm aside the plate
@@tods_workshop Aye, you made it clear you were speaking for England and that's what is great in your way of stating things. I was just adding info from another standpoint for the sake of curiosity :P Ok for the penetration, it is more than it seemed on the picture, I guess they slipped back or something... didn't pay attention if you said the depth in mm, sorry. Also it's cool to see you read and reply, thank you for the time you take!
I'd be interested to see different examples compared. Not necessarily shot with arrows but crafting techniques. French, English, Spanish, etc.
A few comments have mentioned there specifically was a standard on the continent and that needs to be looked at...and shot at.
The brigandine has always fascinated me. I would love to see a video all about it because there’s this, the coat of plates, lorica segmentata, lorica plumata, Mongolian horse riders’ coats of plates, etc. How the plates are arranged, how they’re fastened, their backings.. an exhaustive video may have one viewer-me-but I would watch from beginning to end lol
Love to see that too.
This channel is absolute gold. I'm an artist and whenever I need to research medieval armor, this is one of the first places I go to. Cheers!
Knyght Errant's channel is a good place to go too! Too bad he no longer post videos lately
*Immediately sees Tod excited within 10secs*."Oh this is going to be GOOD" Also fistful of arrows sounds like a medieval western
like fistful of frags
I want Ennio Morricone to come back from the dead to compose the score.
This castle ain't big enough for the both of us.
What did the brigandine say to the plate cuirass? "Do you even flex bro?"
I can feel half of the court loosing it and the other half rolling their eyes.
"Weird flex, but Ok."
Lorica segmentata to brigandine: Look how they massacred my boy
These puns do not sit well upon my plate
This chain of comments keeps on going, don't they.
Considering that every one of those arrows would probably have gone through an unprotected body and most likely be lethal, this Brigandine still offers a lot protection. With only two of those arrows penetrating at finger length, and most of them being most likely minor wounds.
It did quite well indeed, better than I expected against the needle bodkins. That said I do wonder how such "minor wounds" worked out back in those days before antibiotics and modern wound sanitisation. Obviously a whole lot better than no armour being there but the infection risk when such a projectile might force dirty clothes/stuff from the arrow head into the body would not be great. Oh and removing a type 16, no thanks don't want to think about it...
@@extrastuff9463 I mean, if the guy makes it long enough to be useful for his side during the duration of the battle, I’d consider this as an absolute win.
Also as he said at the beginning, he was closer than usual. He was hitting with about 13% more speed than at 75m. 1/.88 = 1.136 Kinetic Energy = Mass * Velocity^2. If the 75m kinetic energy on impact is 1, then we end up with (1.13)^2 = x (1^2) x = 1/1.13^2 = 0.7831 So at 75m, it would be impacting with less than 4/5ths of the total energy. Add to that the fact that a human body is less firmly rooted in place and will thus absorb some of the impact as the shot pushes it back, and it becomes even more impressive for a low grade armour.
This is also fairly close range, and fairly thin metal plates at 1.2mm. With 2mm plates I assume you'd be nigh-invulnerable against projectiles of the time.
@@FortWhenTeaThyme Also also consider that this is an approximation of the absolutely most powerful bows going in that era. Against a regular bow (hunting bow or so on) there is very little chance of penetration - certainly not lethal.
"Just a little bit wibbly wobbly." Tod Cutler, November 2020
In the UK it's considered a technical term. Reference: tardis.fandom.com/wiki/Wibbly_wobbly,_timey_wimey
@@SenselessUsername wibbly wobbly time wimey S T U F F
Would anyone else pay to have Tod give a hype talk looking at your work? His energy and excitement is so energizing.
He's fun. He makes me smile like watching a child play. With all his knowledge and intelligence he's still a kid and that's a beautiful thing.
This is why you are nice to the guy who makes your Brigandine.
I am so impressed by the brigandine, you were basically shooting the heaviest thing of the period at it and it stood up pretty well in most cases
The Lockdown Longbow mimics a 150-160lb longbow of good yew shoot medium-weight arrows. While reasonably powerful, plenty of 15th-century crossbows hit harder. One replica of a 1,200lb horn crossbow managed nearly 200 J. For comparison, the Lockdown Longbow does around 130 J. I suspect there's a reason Pietro Monte noted crossbows as one the few threats to the man-at-arms in full harness aside from the heavy lance. & composite bows could potentially be considerably more powerful than yew longbows. An 82lb Manchu-style big-siyah supposedly managed around 130 J with a very heavy arrow (for the draw weight). Similar bows were probably being used in the Chinese region in the 15th century, but of course not in Europe in any meaningful numbers. Finally, various gunpowder weapons did coexist with brigandines in Europe.
@abis10 alpha10 Yes. We have evidence of such very heavy arrows from at least Qing China, Japan, & Korea. There's nothing concrete from England as far as I know, but I believe they sometimes used quarter-pound (113-gram) arrows as that supposed Charles II quotation indicates.
1. The sheer glee and excitement you showed doing this testing was contagious. Loved every second of it! 2. You said this is a back-plate. All I could think of was how you absolutely middled two shots, with a needle bodkin and a short bodkin, and how the recipient of either arrow would be -- at best -- severely inconvenienced, if not outright dead, if those had hit the soldier's spine where they did.
These videos have shed so much light on questions that have been no more than guess by now.Really puts things into perspective and helps paint a more realistic picture of medieval life.
Thanks and that is exactly what I have been trying to do
That poor Brigandine... I am suddenly filled with an overwhelming fear for Shadiversity and his brigandine. ;-;
Time for a new level of Shad!
It held up a lot better than mail or gambeson...
Maybe shad got his made of medium or high carbon steel.
I am looking at it as the brig did rather well! I wouldn’t hesitate to wear it in that era.
@incinerator950 not with the brigantine
So far, if I can summarize, are the results "warbows are mean and will mess you up, unless you're in proper hardened full plate. Then watch out for shrapnel."
Seems about right
"I was not expecting that at all" - the video series.
@Dragon50275 Always found that the most interesting part of archaeology
You mentioned about people potentially wearing mail alongside this, I think it'd be interesting to see what difference that could make? Anyway, your video's are awesome, keep up the good work!
I imagine it would make quite a difference. We know maille provided good protection against lower poundage bows (so not longbows and high poundage composite bows but earlier bows) but even against something like a longbow the maille offers a layer of protection reducing the penetration some. Not enough to protect you on its own, but with layers of protection, it would save your life I imagine. Even against that last arrow that barely made it close to three inches. Even a little less penetration would mean a painful injury but you would live.
Judging by the penetration depth, and also which arrows penetrated the most, I think it would make a huge difference. It kind of looks like Brig stops mail piercing arrows, and I would guess vice versa for things like plate cutters
I doubt it would be a full mail shirt. History suggests that would be chain for the arms and legs that is usually directly attached to the padded under armor/cloth.. Adding full mail adds a ton of weight and would reduce mobility. I would think it more likely that the cloth under garment might have some leather (not hardened) as a boundary between the plates and cloth to reduce the wear and tear, but that wouldn't add much to stop penetration.
@@nelspaulson3099 I am going on memory ( and chemotherapy makes that possibly more unreliable), but there’s evidence of both, particularly in effigies/ mortuary statues.
@@jeffreyroot6300 it wouldn't surprise me if auxillary that needed to supply their own great didn't, or the difference in spear vrs lance on horse back. For a long time the most powerful blow on the battlefield was a heavy horse lance charge. It took a long time to reliably make armor that could survive that assault. All wealthy nobels would get the best and everyone else would get what they can afford.
A Fistfull of Arrows, For a few Arrows more, The god, the bad and the Archer, ....
fun-ny
I'd have gone for The Good, The Bad and The Fletcher lol
Waah, Waah, Waah.
@@twotone3070 😂👏🏼
The War of the Wealds
Great video again! I wanted to point something out: At 4:53 you said that even out at 75 metres, you've only lost about 10-12% of the speed of the arrow. But because kinetic energy is nonlinear, assuming arrow mass = 0.0778 kg, muzzle velocity = 54 m/s, then your energy at point-blank is 113.4 J. After losing 12% of its speed, the arrow has only 87.8 J (which means it has lost 22.5% of its energy!!). Momentum is linear, however, so you would have lost 12% of the arrow's momentum at that range. I would like to see a video comparing arrow energy vs. momentum in terms of armour piercing! I guess this would be a comparison of different arrow weights and ranges? EDIT: Just realised you did post a video with data related to this topic in August... My bad!
Bro What muzzle? ( ͝° ͜ʖ͡°)
It's no surprise that arrows with an initial kinetic energy of around 130 J defeated 1.2mm mild steel. Piercing 1.2mm mild steel 40mm only requires around 75 J according to *The Knight and the Blast Furnace*. Going through plates is impressive & suggests two 1.2mm plates take less energy to defeat than one 2.4mm plate. If we simply add the energy for two 1.2mm plates together, we get about 150 J for 40mm penetration. As this was less than 40mm penetration, the results are roughly consistent. By contrast, 2.4mm mild steel should take around 225 J to pierce 40mm according to Alan Williams, which is far beyond the kinetic energy of these arrows. That's an interesting result.
Plate testing will be coming....Thanks
Could it be that Joules is a totally meaningless metric for penetration of steel? 130 Joules of soft bodkin is wildly different than 130 Joules of stale doughnut.
When it come to battleship armor 2 plates are not as effective as a single plate of the same thickness. I believe the same applies here.
Hi, I'd guess this is because of how deformation energy behaves within the material. If you concider the penetraded plate as an spring the stored energy is proportional to the expansion of the spring squared E=0.5*D*s^2 with D as a matrial constant and the .5 as a result from an integral over a force. If you penetrate an 1.2mm plate the remaining energy stays within the arrow ready to penetrate the second plate, whilst within a 2.4mm the thicknes increases squared I hope I conveyed it understandably ^^". I could be wrong though and the're many factors uncosidered within this thesis: E.g: Hardness (Resistance against penetration of an external body), the differences of plastic (irreversable) and elastic (reversable) deformation, the different tensions in the material.
@@MrSlientdeath Drachinifel subscriber?
Shad visits Tod. Tod: "Don't forget to wear that nice Brigandine suit you got." I now envision Tod chasing Shad through the English countryside with his crossbow so he can test the quality of Shad's nice, pretty, Brigandine coat. To the tune of Benny Hill music.
CCR: "better run through the hedgerows"
Semi-related thought I've had for a while: I feel like studded leather was inspired by/meant to be brigandine.
There's certainly the indication of 'studs' on the front, but it would take someone very inexperienced in armours to misunderstand what they're looking at and call it 'leather'. I'd say the metal plates are the main part of brigandine. Then again, no-one ever claimed that Gary Gygax was an armour expert in the 70s.
Someone tell Shad he's going to want a mail shirt under his brig!
Or just a brigandine that's 2 millimeters thick. The one shown here was 1.2 millimeters thick and stopped nearly everything from being lethal. 2 millimeters (assuming the same quality) would probably get the job done.
@@bolbyballinger true, but just think how good it'll look
@@sargi769 Probably be uncomfortable as hell, though. The weight of both chain mail (with the required addition of some kind of arming doublet or padded jerkin underneath) and a brigandine compressing your shoulders would definitely have a negative affect on your stamina in terms of your performance with your weapon, too. I think I'd rather choose living over looking cool, lol
@@Nathan_Talisien a good belt or properly fitted brig would take a lot of weight off the shoulders and distribute it. And if I'm not mistaken people did wear mail with brigandines. A modern soldier lugs more weight than that around.
@@sargi769 All true. I was mostly thinking in terms of archers specifically as they tended to be more lightly armored by necessity, though I guess I didn't make that clear in my post. I almost always think in terms of archers when watching a video like this one, lol.
Tod really needs to host his own History Channel show. He's just so damn entertaining.
Lovin' you!
What a concept, actual history content on the History Channel.
@@tods_workshop right back at ya mate!
@Jon Goat @hanelyp1 Thanks for pissing on this. It wouldn't be the KZhead comment section with everyone adding negativity.
@Jon Goat 🖕😑🖕
12:50 Dragon Skin, the plates overlap on it like on scale mail armor. It was made by the now-defunct company Pinnacle Armor and featured prominently on Future Weapons season 2 episode 2 "The Protectors". The problem was that the glue holding the scales feel apart in high temperatures.
Yeah. It was too inconsistent to be worth using in any significant quantities.
Was there any word on why the manufacturer didn't switch to a different adhesive?
@@Cautionary_Tale_Harris they did, but they didn't get the military contract because it doesn't protect well against IEDs. things coming up at the troop tends to get through he plates easier than a solid piece. the big advantage of the armor was that it weighed half as much for the same protection, but you don't get something for nothing and it was bulkier and didn't do so well against the weapon troops faced the most at the time they were vying for a contract. body armor that is really protective is too uncomfortable to wear for extended periods by civilians so few wanted to buy it and thus if a body armor company does not get a military contract they pretty much always go out of business.
@@Cautionary_Tale_Harris One of the designers (who has gone on to do more successful things) recently explained a year or two ago that there was a whole sordid story of monetary shenanigans which the co-owner of Dragonskin apparently engaged in. It's been awhile since I read it, but if I remember correctly they weren't supposed to use that kind of adhesive in the first place originally. The co-owner who'd negotiated for them to use the adhesive that they used was unwilling to change it, though, and there was an explosive falling out. I think that may have eventually gotten it fixed, but it was a really troubled development cycle.
@@jamoecw Thank you for taking the time to answer.
Thank you for explaining that every armor and the quality is different. Some people view these types of videos thinking this is enough proof and even thinking that high quality full breastplate would behave the same way as this brigandine.
Tod is having WAY too much fun... and I love it!
I think he got infected by Joerg Sprave ... only testing and improving his medieval instant Legolas.
I'm a simple man. I see Tod's video. I click. Never disappointed.
Katniss is a man? Interesting...
@@Alexander-hx2bi Interesting, like Tod's videos :'D
The educational content in this video is fantastic, but your genuine enthusiasm really makes it golden. Thank you for making them!
"A Fist Full of Arrows, " sounds like a title for a spaghetti-Robin-Hood movie in an alternate Universe by Sergio Leone, starring Clint Eastwood. Thanks, Tod, for all your hard work. Stay safe.
I agree. but don't forget Gian Maria Volontè
10:18 "Now, if we go through our arrow heads..." Tod, here in Europe, arrow heads go through you.
I've been loving Tod's archery videos this year. You can tell that he is genuinely enthusiastic, and that passion infects his audience as a result. Great work!
The excitement you show in your videos makes me want to learn more about medieval history and warfare! Keep it up, Tod!
One of my favorite things about these type of historical/experimental channels is just how much the people enjoy doing it.
I love the sound of the arrows just as they impact. Zzzzip, clunk.
Imagine being the poor dude in the armour. Zzzip clunk. Lethal or not that would be a bad day
@@steelarm7 must have been demoralising.
@@flamingooaisis It’s also potentially a very exhilarating thing when you take a hit without being significantly hurt. Older dude told me to stop giggling after picking myself up. Later I was the older guy when a prisoner tried to stab me and it almost missed. Barely raked my arm. No emotion then . Just got the job done. Funny how experience changes you.
Wow! This is interesting! The plate cutters felt almost like a joke up to this moment. How the tables have turned!
I love this channel so much... Your passion and excitement really comes through in your work, and makes all your videos enjoyable to watch!
Tod, your excitement is beautiful. You get so giddy like a child it makes me smile. It's part of the reason I love your channel. You're learning as we are and it feels so raw. You'd be an amazing man to meet. Thank you for your channel.✌🏼
i feel like having material on the outside of metal armour helps with penetration. it prevents the arrow heads sliding off and makes sure the arrow stays straight and true on impact forcing the kinetic energy into the armour instead of sliding along it. i think if you did a test with exactly the same material, but with the metal on the outside you might see a few more ricochets and broken shafts perhaps. Love your channel man. Its so cool
This is an interesting point. How much is that stuff a shot trap. At the same time during the plate test the cloth outer layer, I can't remember what it's called, did exactly that. However, the effect was to prevent the arrows from splintering. So sometimes you want that.
That is an interesting point. I personally would expect that if you tried that, because of the way the plates are layered, that the angle on a struck plate might direct an arrow up and under the plates above, potentially directing the arrow head towards a weak point or seam in the armor. I think we saw evidence of that sort of re-directing of the arrows on the plate chest piece, and there was the specific detail built in to the chest plate (sorry I don't know the name) to direct splintering or sliding arrows away from the underside of the helmet. I imagine there must be a reason why they didn't wear brigandine in the manner you suggest, and I have no idea why honestly, I'm just making an assumption, so I absolutely think it's worth a test. On the other hand, at that point is it still Brigandine? or is it scale mail?
There's a school of Russian armour that had reversed brigandine like setup, scale armours with rivets but with plates on the outside.
good point - no pun intended
@ryder: I dunno, there are Crusades reports of felt over mail being very effective in preventing much penetration of the mail. The knight would look like a pincushion but keep fighting.
1) I love your enthusiasm every time 2) Yeah taking a barbed arrow through the armor into the chest would really suck
This is the quality content I love on KZhead. Much respect and appreciation, Sir!
Thank you Tod! I love these videos. I love the history you add with the explanations, and the authenticity of the armor.
You are literally my great grandpas doppelgänger. When I first saw your face I stared for a minute, so did grandpa. Anyways. I have a few high speed steel tips I’d like you to try. I’ll edit this post with the makeup of the steel. Edit: I have a few different types of HSS tips. Some are tungsten steel with 65 with my hardness tester.
I also had a grandpa who looked exactly like him lol
Interesting thought about the steel heads and makes perfect sense. I would however, be interested to see how the non-steel hunting tips handle impacts with bone. It may have been that steel was introduced to minimise the replacement of damaged heads in regular use rather than as a means of penetrating low grade armour.
Tod, my dear, I'm loving your channel more and more. The results are... Wow, incredibly interesting. Thank you very much!
So much fun to watch! Thanks Tod, your curiosity and enthusiasm are simply delightful.
Thank you so much. Going from strength to strength . You really take it down the rabbit hole of "what if's" and its compulsive viewing. I am absolutely hooked.
Would love to see an episode about different types of helmets and their effectiveness/level of protection.
I love just how excited you are about the results on this. Always interesting videos, and I look forward to your ones in the future!
This was an awesome test! I think my favorite you've done so far. More Lockdown Longbow please!
Great job Tod, as usual! But there is one side effect, now I feel quite uncomfortable in my 1,5 mm hardend steel brigantine.
Should have gone for the 33% upgrade whilst it was on the offer price, it even came with a free leather campaign mug.
That would be thicker and harder than the brigandine Tod tested, so don't worry so much.
Just where mail and gamberson underneath
@@johnconnor8206 well yeah, that will help. Also I recently changed my old brigantine for a new one made of titanium this time.
I'm very much looking forward to your video with Ash.
You and me both!
Holy cow That was basically the opposite result that I expected! I really appreciate what you are doing on this channel. reconstructing what could have been in the best way possible.
Thank you for sharing this with us Tod. Love to see someone so excited to experiment with this stuff. Very fascinating conclusions. Wonderful video, cheers!
“I have a video coming with Ash where we discuss all things brigandine.” *grabby hands* gimme, pretty please
Tod promised the brigadine and hes delivered
This was way too cool! Been looking forward to this study and testing since I saw it!!
I just recently found this channel and I'm a nerd for medieval stuff, and it's really awesome seeing this kind of stuff tested as well.
brigandine is by far my favorite type of armor. I have always heard it was great for stopping arrows so when those bodkins went in, i was incredibly surprised. but as you said in the video a higher quality or lower quality one could change the outcome drastically.
I was surprised too. But I think it's all context. It's good in stopping arrows compared to stuff that a person who would buy brigandine could also afford. If your options are a brigandine, mail, or an overhyped winter-coat, the brigandine is probably the best. Even the deepest penetration in this video weren't as deep, as the first hit in the long bow vs. plate video, where the arrow missed the plate, and penetrated through mail and padding.
Already can"t wait "For a Few Arrows More" :)
It would be cool to see some lance or javelin throwing as well for good measure during armor testing. One can always hope.
Javelins will be coming....
especially after the great review on the good, the waxed, and the pointy...
I can't wait for "The Knight, the Bandit, and the Beggar"
@@tods_workshop Sounds ominous
its awesome how this guy is responding to so many comments. Keep up the good work dude!
Another most interesting test, well done Tod and thank you for the effort!
Been looking forward to this one! That's me settling in, then..!
Note to self: Minimum thickness of mild steel brigandine plates: 2mm. That or 1.2 plus good mail underneath. Good to know, for that time in the future, when the health of my corporeal form and my wallet respectively allow me to put my armour-nerding into practice. Great stuff as always Tod, particularly interesting with the harder broadhead. Makes me wonder if the M2s and needles might have fared better with better steel. Might be worth a test some day.. Im also going to leave my at this point almost traditional request for a bronze version of a medieval breastplate, or at least an analogue. The more I think about it, the more mysterious the lack of comprehensive bronze plate harnesses in late antiquity seems. Please help me solve this, it's driving me up the wall. All the best and looking forward to more Cheers
And harden the plates.
Well, there's the Dendra panoply in late Bronze Age, but by the crsis of the third century, steel working has become so common and effective, I don't see any advantage of the bronze armor that will allow it to survive in such an unstable time.
i also think that once a technology is outdated, the relative infrastructure also disappears, making basically impossible to find a shop or a craftman able or willing to make a bronze armor, even if you wanted to. it's like looking for a steam car nowadays. i mean.. how much are you willing to spend, my good lord? THAT much? i'll see what i can do. ahaha
@@hic_tus that is a very good point. Bronze is quite tricky to work with. And the transfer of knowledge and technical skills was quite inefficient in antiquity. Once bronze armour becomes obsolete it would only take a couple of generations for people to forget how to work with it.
@@ieuanhunt552 yeah i think it's the very same reason why they can't just use a saturn V rocket for the artemis missions to moon: nobody knows how most of the components work anymore (plus a thousand other reasons but you get my point)! better a fresh start
You excitement is infectious. Thoroughly enjoyable watching you enjoy shooting crossbow bolts at my favourite video game armour!
I have been waiting for this video for a long time! Thank you for the effort you put in them ^^ I definitely was not expecting the results! Happy to learn something new ^^
Ah, I watched to the end now, dragonskin* is the proper name and it was an exercise in futility, unfortunately. The very idea is more akin to the lamellar armour without stiff/semi-stiff connections, it's incredibly sound and it could be made to work if not for military's requirements. The whole thing was supposed to give you more mobility than a simple plate and provide hard armour level of protection for commonly shot areas impossible to protect with plate. However Pentagon decided that the only thing they want covered is upper chest, and that, combined with the ridiculous price (so not like brigandine at all lol) and some technical issues (epoxy melting in 50°C making it all fall apart) killed the project. Shame, it would be a welcome addition to the ballistic collar and a solution for abdomen and sides protection (yes, there are side plates, but there's a reason they barely sell). Hope I helped, I know there's not much info about this topic out there besides some outrageous, overproduced garbage conspiracy videos probably made for History channel or Discovery.
The idea of many individual, small ceramic plates doesn't seem like a good one. It would offer less protection than a homogeneous piece of ceramic. As for protecting parts of the body plates cannot, perhaps it has a place there but it certainly wasn't marketed as such. Doesn't help that I haven't seen a single testing video that isn't from the company itself or Discovery channel...
weight is another limitation, from what I remember the weight vs Lvl of protection it granted wasn't worth it.
Went to comments to find this
the idea seemed good and I think the overlapping plates do give enough protection vs a solid one, but with the added benefit that only one or 2 small plates break vs the entire plate after a few shots. It most likely does not get any lighter because of the overlapping parts, and if if that part is true it didn't perform well, that is a clear sign this version at least wasn't going to be the winning idea yet. But the concept in itself makes sense.
@@pr0faker Solid plate doesn't just shatter after one shot
"His lordship thought he looked ravishing in his new brigandine. He was not expecting that at all."
He was going for the new porcupine look.
And the archer thought his hardened Bodkin looked ravishing in His Lordship.
I think looks played a big part in brigandine's popularity. All the style of full-plate, at a fraction of the cost, and dyeable fabric to boot.
@@littlekong7685 Not to mention much nore comfortable to wear! And you dont need to shit yourself, if that battle/parade takes longer than expected!
I think these "arrows vs." vids have been your best videos ever, Tod. Fascinating work and good compliance with scientific methods.
Very thorough, and very nicely explained, keep up the good work Tod! I like your videos a lot
Coming to a video service near you "Fist full of arrows" starring Tod of Tod's Workshop, costarring the Lockdown Longbow!
A thought: The "plate cutter" went deep, but would be ralatively easy to rip out due to it's streamlined head. Wound might be eventually lethal, but is unlikely to take a man out immediately. The type 16 went shallower, but it's very likely to get stuck in your armor, and the edges of the head would keep cutting into you as you moved around. Even a superficial penetration would cause pain and annoyance to the point of possibly being debilitating...
This makes a lot of sense. It's also worth considering how (even if the arrow somehow didn't penetrate the flesh) annoying it would be trying to fight with a 76cm arrow sticking from your armour.
Also morale, especially less experienced troops would of been terrified
Also morale, especially less experienced troops would of been terrified
@@MrJackalope15 If it didn't penetrate the flesh you could simply break it off with your elbow. Might slow you down a bit but not for too long. However if it penetrate the flesh, then the only way to remove it "nicely" would be to take off the armor altogether (not possible on the battlefield), and every move you make would only make it go deeper and worsen the wound. Keep fighting with it and even a shallow non-serious wound might end being fatal (especially in medieval era). I you get penetrated through armor with this arrow you might as well stop fighting cause remobing it isn't an option, keep fighting is probably a death sentence and breaking it would be even worse. Overall nasty stuff, i totally understand why some medieval archer would pay premium for hardened barbed head like that.
@@paullauruol9628 I see what you mean, though I do question the ease with which one could break an arrow shaft whilst holding a weapon. That said, if a person has a shield the arrow's less likely to hit their armour, meaning that in this instance the hypothetical soldier has a poleaxe or something(?) which seems like it would be less hindered anyway, so my original point is pretty much moot (I don't know, I'm just speculating wildly) ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Thanks for the video, Tod. You and Todd from Project Farm are my favorite testers.
Great video! Been looking forward to this one. Keep em coming!
Shots into the back of the Brigandine, to quote that great Englishman,"Remember it's ruin to run from a fight, so take open order lie down and sit tight, and wait for reliefs like a Soldier"
Nice quote. I had to look it up.
The very best armor is, not being shot. Says the ninja.. ( to hind in plain sight )
@abis10 alpha10 or milaneese (spelling)
In short WEAR YOUR PROTECTION BOYS ! Even cheap armor is better then no armor.
You're genuinely blowing the doors off any other channel. I'm from across the long livid pond here. Just about all of us own many fire arms of all sorts. My favorite is still my Henry 30-30 7 shot as it's always reliable. But since there's so many fire arms the videos are extremely over saturated. Then here comes you with the drive mixed with capability and knowledge doing what maybe 5 others could actually manage Always top shelf videos, always top shelf original content. I can honestly say I wish you massive financial success here on you tube
Always look forward to your videos! Keep up the great work!
You should make a video about staff slings, maybe a sling vs. Staff sling impact power/range/accuracy comparison video
A guy named Zachary Fowler did that a while ago. Look up staff sling Fowler’s makery and mischief.
Although a little ironic that it protect the arrow, that's actually not necessarily a bad thing. If the arrow pierces, you would rather it be intact so that it's easier to remove if you manage survive the shot. If an arrowhead were to snap off whilst lodged in your body, it would mean that the only way anyone is getting that thing out of you is if they go digging around in your wound for it. Having the shaft be intact means you have something keeping the arrowhead in place and something you can use to pull on when trying to extract it. Would still be dangerous. Removing an arrow isn't exactly safe no matter what one does, but you'd rather not need for someone to dig around in your wound.
And even if the arrow doesn't penetrate, you still want it intact if possible. Means you can pick it up and shoot it back at your enemy.
@@patheddles4004 well...not if getting it out means having to tug and pry the arrowhead out of layers of steel and linen. It would be quite inconvenient and take you out of the fight for the amount of time until you regained your full freedom of movement
Great video Tod! The various technological adjustments really point to just how prevalent brigandine was during this era.
I'm bored out of my mind and it was such a treat to see you having so much fun
Awesome love these tests. Thank you so much for the journey into medieval warfare.
Hey Tod, love the series! How did the rivets fair? Just curious if plates might fail more due to rivet failure, like arrow 1 got stopped, but the plate is wrecked so arrow 2 on the same spot just kills you.
I feel like the proportion of arrows that punched into the brigandine supports the idea that a fairly lucky (that is, unlucky) shot would probably incapacitate someone wearing the brigandine (in one hit), at which point the question of two arrows becomes kind of academic. What I'm trying to say is, it seems more likely for you to take one arrow that puts you out of commission than for you to take two arrows in the same spot.
i feel like this doesnt really matter since i would imagine the odds of getting hit in the same plate twice are pretty low still and interesting question tho
@@nickolas474 Part of the question with regards to the rivets is the way the armor works spreading the load, if rivets fail you could get hit on a different plate and suffer even worse damage. Also logically if the rivets fail and the plates start flopping around inside its going to make a mess out of your mobility.
@@jamesmayes4351 Hm. Okay, that's a sound point. In that case, was riveting procedure standardized during that time? It doesn't appear to have been a major problem on Tod's sample after eating all of those arrows, but I feel it might vary, as plate thickness does, enough for the answer to be inconsistent across different soldiers.
This is my favourite series on KZhead right now, really look forward to the interesting objectivity. Thanks Tod
Yeah, same goes for me.
Just those first seconds of the video makes you want to watch it. If Tod is this excited, it has to be good. Loved it.
I'm wondering whether the few larger (and presumably thicker) plates covering the chest region will fare better against arrows than the back side of the brigandine. BTW, good stuff on KZhead. Really enjoy it, as always, but still excited about that scabbard for the Regent XD
Do I owe you a scabbard? mail me if that is the case
@@tods_workshop No, no, don't take it the wrong way, Tod. Just looking forward to it, while enjoying the content of the channel.
personally I find you put out tremendously nice content lately! So glad to see someone live their interests and passions like you do. Keep it up! (:
Love your videos, your experimental archeology and testing, is very clear cut with little room for argument, it's about time we started to see this kind of approach respected and listened to by the establishment.
Thank you
Great fun Tod! Cheers mate! Love the channel! Adventure on, Phat