In this video, we explore the differences between Morgoth and Sauron - their origins, their operative style, and their ultimate goals.
Thumbnail Art - vandersteltstudio.com/ (Sauron) & www.artstation.com/kilpatrick (Morgoth)
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/ darthgandalf
Sauron: I'm not evil! I'm just misunderstood! Morgoth: Oh yeah, evil. TOTALLY evil. Absolutely.
Funny how that works right?
Lucifer and Satan basically
Nah nah nah, more like. Morgoth knew he was in the wrong he was a rebellious child. Sayron genuinely believed he had the right to rule and that makes him way worse. Because he essentially becomes a hitlet character. (Funny how the story kinda matches tolkiens life yhrougj ww1 and ww2 huh)
@@adejal wut
@@adejal lucifer means bringer of light and is a title; satan is referred to in the book of job. It means the opposer of God. Reread it sometime
Eru Iluvatar: all right, guys. Let's create the universe with a song. Morgoth: *plays death metal on guitar*
Universe or just a planet?
@@Tenchi707 (Eä) univers
Eru was a jack ass. Morgoth with all his fault, never got any explanation why he should not be creative. Eru just told him off for trying to be different.
@@dutchmilkall Eru did was remind Melkor his purpose is to enact Eru's vision of the world, his own vision is Eru's.
@dutchmilk The problem wasn't being creative. It was that Morgoth was ruining everyone else's creativity. Also, his song sucked.
Until you read The Silmarillan you will only know a fraction of the story. Sauron was but a shadow of Melkor. ALL evil comes from Melkor. Sauron, by contrast, was just a one of the Maiar. "....But in the years he rose like a shadow of Morgoth and a ghost of his malice, and walk behind him on the same ruinous path down in the void"
Let me put it this way: if you think Sauron was evil and powerful, Morgoth is on a different level of toughness and being sinister. This is like saying Shang Tsung or Darth Vader or Megatron/Galvatron is tough and evil, but Shao Khan or Darth Sidious or Unicron or the Fallen (both are M3gatron's/Galvatron's masters) is on another level of toughness and evil.
@@123ucr feel like megatron and Unicron are a good comparison. Megatron being Sauron doesnt believe himself to be pure evil depending on which megatron we talking about. they believe they need to rule in order to create order. Unicron and Morgoth are just Pure chaos and evil out for total annihilation of all
If it was his plan anyway, all evil technically comes from Illuvitar.
Dr doom shits on all these names. Cease your panting, minion.
Silmarion was made since Marvel was not even created😂@@cupyay7512
Even though Morgoth was the most powerful, I feel like Sauron is probably the scariest in terms of his personality. Morgoth is the embodiment of chaos, but in a way that makes him sort of predictable in the end, while Sauron is a master manipulator that can be anyone or influence anyone to do his indirect bidding, and might even come across as sympathetic. It sorta feels like Morgoth is the Devil while Sauron is more like the Antichrist. He may be a "lesser" evil, but his unpredictable presence is terrifying. (also, I wish we could've seen Morgoth's army. Not just orcs and trolls, but also werewolves, vampires, wights, balrogs, giant spiders etc. Like the army itself is just pure chaos; a nightmarish mish-mash of your worst nightmares coming pouring over the hills towards you)
Sauron also seems like a better embodiment of Absolute Power imo, from a Narrative Persephone. His manipulative nature is like how tempting/appealing Absolute Power and Control can be sometimes. Everybody thinks that if they had the power to rule the world, they would be able to fix everything. Even Sauron thinks that if he could just rule Middle Earth everything would be great, he's just gotta stamp out these pesky Rebels first. It's always a trap however, as Absolute Power Corrupts Absolutely. That's of course why the One Ring corrupts peoples minds- Morgoth seems like an extension of this idea, as supposedly he enfused his essence into the the land itself, similar to Sauron attaching himself to The One Ring. Corruption and Power will always exist in the world, its pressence has become interwoven into Middle Earth itself now. There will always be Saurons who try to take it. As long as Morgoth exists, there will always be Saurons who strive to be like him. One to embody Power, the other to crave it. That's how I think of it tho, kinda like the Sith from Star Wars and their "Rule of Two"
In scripture "Satan" (the adversary) as in Samael, the entity in the Book of Job and the Fall, isn't Evil. In fact, he hates humans because of our evil and ungrateful natures. His failure/sin is that he thought he knew better than God. He assumed he knew how to punish humanity better than the Creator, the All, God. Much the same for The Anti Christ. (It is a spiritual state of humans who are in constant sin/failure in measurement to their acknowledgement or lack there of to the Holy Spirit in us all - Hence "there will be many anti christs) There is a figure known as the Son of perdition as well, which is mentioned. And it is that form of anti Christ behavior that will trick the world into solving problems that only exist due to false realities. And even then the Beast and the beast system turn on the Son of perdition and try to wound/kill him (inner conflict of power struggle amongst evil people)
@@LifeWasGood and like to know where Scripture says that Satan isn't evil but wants to punish evil in his own way.
@@exparrow777 the Book of Job the Root word for sin is failure, to miss the target. it's a cannanite hebrewic word we're saying in English phonetics And as an ex-atheist I think it's quite Evil to assume you think or know better than God himself. (as the atheistic mind is as such and shares a psyche with Samael, the poison of God, the accuser/Satan.) He is not evil in the cliche or narrow minded ways humans see things (Satan doesn't murder or steal, etc.) We do that, as free willed humans. But he is evil for thinking his intelligence surpasses the source of that intelligence. And because as a celestial entity his foreknowledge would be more than other creatures, and so "He knew better" but still chose otherwise. hence his Fall.
@@exparrow777 *1 Job 6-12* "6 Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them. 7 And the LORD said unto Satan, Whence comest thou? Then Satan answered the LORD, and said, From going to and fro in the earth, and from walking up and down in it. 8 And the LORD said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil? 9 Then Satan answered the LORD, and said, Doth Job fear God for nought? 10 Hast not thou made an hedge about him, and about his house, and about all that he hath on every side? thou hast blessed the work of his hands, and his substance is increased in the land. 11 But put forth thine hand now, and touch all that he hath, and he will curse thee to thy face. 12And the LORD said unto Satan, Behold, all that he hath is in thy power; only upon himself put not forth thine hand. So Satan went forth from the presence of the LORD." [I also want to show that Satan does not have any domain or power of his own. He doesn't rule Hell, and infact it was made for him.] Matthew 25:41 “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels." We already Knew of good and evil, each of us innately feels the call, pulse, or tug of the Holy Spirit, the guiding Rod That God put in us all. Even Eve and Adam knew of this already, and in genesis it shows that Satan had to lie about that fact of reality. He also was smited in genesis, and fractured. Satan isn't a god or lesser god. Not even a deity. He doesn't rule Hell or Demons. All he can do is convince others to fail as he did and get them to renounce God, because Samael is a salty jealous thing.
Morgoth fought his war on a whole other level. He became physically weak because he infused his essence into the matter of middle earth itself. While he rarely fought directly, he reached a point where his power over middle earth was so great that he could literally will the ruin of people he didn't like (Turin) and going to war with him eventually came to mean going to war with the substance of Middle Earth. As was once said by the author, Sauron had a ring, but the whole of middle earth was in a real sense Morgoth's ring.
Indeed, *everything* that was and is faul/evil is because of Morgoth and will remain so untill the reshaping of arda.
Morgoth May have lost the war for Middle Earth, but you cant deny he won the war for its soul.
Yes, Morgoth added evil to Middle Earth during the song. After descending into Middle Earth he wrought physical changes and poured power into his followers as seen when he was nearly overcome by Ungoliant after poisoning the trees and stealing the Silmarils. His ties to the very stuff of Arda were so strong that the Valar long avoided all out war due to the devastation it would (and later did) bring completely changing the face of Arda.
Correction: Morgoth infused his essence into Arda, not just Middle Earth. Arda is the the whole world, Middle Earth is the continent where most of the action takes place.
@@karlwikman3874 - So, Satan.
Sauron was originally a craftsman Maia serving under the Valar that created dwarves, I think. It's a beautifully sad arc, Sauron's. His desire for beauty and order ultimately created ugliness and chaos over thousands of years of corruption. In a way, Sauron was Morgoth's ultimate revenge. He twisted a beautiful angel into his successor in destruction.
Love that
Now we know who helped dwarf chiks growing beards! xD
Desiring imposed order is ugly.
And in turn Sauron twisted the hearts of men being the sole reason the Numenoreans all perished.
Repent and follow Jesus my friend! Repenting doesn't mean confessing your sins to others, but to stop doing them altogether. Belief in Messiah alone is not enough to get you into heaven - Matthew 7:21-23, John 3:3, John 3:36 (ESV is the best translation for John 3:36). Contemplate how the Roman empire fulfilled the role of the beast from the sea in Revelation 13. Revelation 17 confirms that it is in fact Rome. From this we can conclude that A) Jesus is the Son of God and can predict the future or make it happen, B) The world leaders/nations/governments etc have been conspiring together for the last 3000+ years to accomplish the religion of the Israelites C) History as we know it is fake. You don't really need to speculate though because you can start a relationship with God and have proof. Call on the name of Jesus and pray for Him to intervene in your life. - Revelation 3:20 Revelation 6 1st Seal: White horse = Roman Empire conquering nations under Trajan 98-117 AD & Gospel spreading rapidly. 2nd Seal: Red horse, bloody civil wars with 32 different Emperors, most killed by the sword. 185-284 AD 3rd Seal: Black horse, economic despair from high taxes to pay for wars, farmers stopped growing. 200-250 AD 4th Seal: Pale horse, 1/4th of Romans died from famine, pestilence; at one point 5,000 dying per day. 250-300 AD 5th Seal: Diocletian persecuted Smyrna church era saints for ten years, blood crying out for vengeance. 303-312 AD 6th Seal: Political upheaval in the declining Roman Empire while the leaders battled each other. 313-395 AD Revelation 7 Sealing of 144,000, the saints, before trumpet war judgments, which led to the fall of the Roman Empire. Revelation 8 1st Trumpet: Alaric and the Goths attacked from the north, the path of hail, and set it on fire. 400-410 AD 2nd Trumpet: Genseric and the Vandals attacked the seas and coastlands, the blood of sailors in water. 425-470 AD 3rd Trumpet: Attila and the Huns scourged the Danube, Rhine & Po rivers area, dead bodies made water bitter. 451 AD 4th Trumpet: Odoacer and the Heruli caused the last Western Emperor (sun), Senate (moon) to lose power. 476 AD With the Western Roman Emperor (restrainer of 2 Thes. 2) removed; the son of perdition Popes took power. Revelation 9 Two woe judgments against the central 1/3rd and eastern 1/3rd of the Roman Empire. 612-1453 AD 5th Trumpet: Locust & scorpions point to Arabia, the rise of the Muslim army. Islam hides Gospel from Arabs. 612-762 AD 6th Trumpet: Turks released to attack Constantinople with large cannons (fire, smoke, brimstone). 1062-1453 AD Revelation 10 The little book is the printed Bible, which was needed after the Dark Ages when Scriptures were banned by Popes. Revelation 11 7th Trumpet: Martin Luther measured Roman Church; found that it’s an apostate church, not part of true temple. The two witnesses are the Scriptures and saints who proclaim the pure Gospel and testify against the antichrist Popes. Papal Church pronounced Christendom dead in 1514 AD. Silence for 3.5 years. Then Luther posted his 95 Thesis, which sparked the Protestant Reformation and brought the witnesses back to life. Millions of Catholics were saved. Revelation 12 Satan used the Roman Empire to try to wipe out the early Church, Satan was cast down as the Empire collapsed. Revelation 13 The antichrist beast Popes reigned in power 1,260 years, 538-1798, is the little horn of Daniel 7, son of perdition. The false prophet Jesuit Superior General rose to power from land (earth) of Vatican and has created many deceptions. Revelation 14 Points to great harvest during the Protestant Reformation & wrath on Catholic countries who obey antichrist Pope. Revelation 15 Overcoming saints victorious over the beast. Prelude to 7 vials and judgment on those who support Papal Rome. Revelation 16 1st Vial: The foul sore of atheism was poured out on Catholic France, leaving them with no hope, led to revolution. 2nd Vial: The French Revolution started in 1793, killed 250,000, as France had obeyed the Pope and killed saints. 3rd Vial: The French Revolution spread to rural areas of France, where Protestants had been killed in river areas. 4th Vial: The bloody Napoleonic wars shed the blood of countries who had revered and obeyed the antichrist Pope. 5th Vial: Judgment on the seat of the beast. Papal States invaded in 1798, Pope imprisoned, removed from power. 6th Vial: The Turks vast domain dried up, they were only left with Turkey. They lost control of Palestine in 1917 AD, Israel became a nation again in 1948
Morgoth was awesome dude was 1v14 and still managed to win 2 time And don't forget his creation like glaurung, dragons and balrog He merged himself with the world itself. And he's still alive
That’s what makes it terrifying. Sauron might be gone, but in the end, Morgoth will return and bring the end
@@KrazedGaaraNinjaSauron isnt really "gone" as well tho. He just has no way of ever forming a body again or interacting with anything on his own.
@@thahoule7924 true, but would he still be a threat? I’d like to know if he’d try anything again after the ring was destroyed
dude there are just fantasy characters @@KrazedGaaraNinja
@@KrazedGaaraNinjanope. he is doomed to witness the development of civilization and the world for an eternity, but he can't influence it at all.
Kind of interesting to ponder the fact that if Morgoth had not had help from the balrogs to save him, Ungoliant would have devoured him.
Imagine if Ungoliant become the ultimate antagonist character in The Silmarilion instead of Melkor lmao
@@Test-mq8ih Yes, that would have been interesting to see how Tolkein would have handled that plot twist.
Ungoliant wouldve grown so powerful Eru wouldve had to intervene.
Only because Ungoliant absorbed the trees power
But that probably only happened because by that point, Melkor had spend enormous amounts of his power, while Ungoliant had just devoured the power from the 2 trees. Like a freshly rested and juiced boxer going up against an exhausted one, who just fought 5 matches right before that in a row.
In short: Morgoth is chaotic evil Sauron is lawfull evil
Correct
Exactly
Who is the neutral evil then? Saruman since he used "evil" as a tool but got corrupted by it? Or maybe Ungoliath since it's like a force of nature?
@@yuomovaeh3028 Saruman neutral, ungoliath chaotic...she turns on her allies
Stalin Hitler
I wonder if Sauron's obsession with Order is why the creators of 'The Shivering Isles' expansion for 'The Elder Scrolls IV: Oblivion' made Jyggalag, the Daedric Prince of Order, heavily resemble Sauron's armored form from the Peter Jackson films.
Jyggalag was not necessarily evil, he was in truth against all of the Daedra as he was against everything that all of them stood for, including the Aedra. Order is anti-freedom, pro-conformity, everyone does as they are told instead of however they wish. And he mostly fell because he attacked all of the Daedra at once, he didn't have cunning, deception, or patience, nor was he malevolent or benevolent, he represented an idea more than anything. But after being free from his curse of having to destroy his own realm (which deeply offended him since it was the utter opposite of him; Chaos), he gave up his power, allowed the new Sheogorath to rule. If Jyggalag had been in Sauron's place, things would have gone dramatically different. He never would've crafted a Ring. He never would have tried to trick people as he isn't capable of it. And he'd be against Morgoth from the start. He'd probably be the only who would stop at nothing for the utter annihilation of Morgoth, cause as mentioned, Morgoth represents Chaos. But he'd also very likely be the first to die considering the massive difference in power.
@@Gyrannon nice.. but that doesn't answer the dudes question..
Yes. Supposedly according to one of the devs (think it was Kirkbride iirc) they also rewrote entirety of Cyrodiil in Oblivion to resemble more like Lord of the Rings because Todd Howard really liked the movies, rather than what was presented before in prior lore where it was jungle Rome with Asian elements
@@anamaaes9218 sad really because we could have gotten a much more interesting ES4. But they always have their "dragon break" cop out to deal with in lore inconsistencies
@@Gyrannon "power difference" U have morgot who can probably destroy the universe where middle earth is Then u have jyggylag who is a prince of uncountable dimensional realms who are higher dimensional and can control them at will Even weak princes like peryte and sanguine hold at least more then I think 80K or more higher dimensional realms, and each can be destroy and manipulated by them at will
I love the idea of Sauron and Morgoth ending up in the same spot and Sauron just coming in after the ring is destroyed and sees Morgoth sitting there and they reunite like old college friends
Morgoth is locked away, alone, in an empty void behind a door, somewhere. I think Saurons spirit is trapped floating around middle earth or something Sauron got the better end of the deal. At least he has something to look at, instead of......nothing. Morgoth must be so bored
@@fritz9830 I mean, the void was kind of what Morgoth/Melkor wanted? He wanted nothing else to exist but him. Sauron as a bodiless spirit also has a chance to see civilization grow and thrive without him as their guidance. How mortal man can create beautiful things without the will of a god to help them. Seeing the advancement of human civilization would humble and break Mairon.
@@fritz9830 you comment made me thought - if Melkor put all or most his power into Arda itself, then him being locked down outside of space-time (I guess) must have stripped him of that power ... still Eärendil has to be on the watch.
Like cell mates who go over how they got caught and their crimes and what happened etc. Morgoth "fricken tukas" :P 😂
I feel like it would more be the equivalent to either dad and son or big and little brother. Melkor was a higher being than Sauron and helped create the world. Saurons kind were lesser versions of them created by the same god, so it would probably fit into a more “siblings reunite after centuries apart.” Would be cool though I agree!!!
There was a note from Tolkien when he actually wrote Sauron's original name before his corruption was Mairon "The Admirable" and he's been called Sauron that means "The Abhorred" or "The Abominable" by the elves after Morgoth corrupted him. Sauron is similar to a fallen angel that wants to make the Earth his own Hell. His ambition is also connected to his own nature, as a Maia he's one the most powerful being in the Tolkien's world, so he can't be satisfied by ruling a single region like common races do, he wants to use his power to bend the all world to his own will and his wish after that could be to ascend his nature by becoming a God himself
Maia*
@@feliciaf8 Maia is the name of the class of spirits he belongs, i just noticed i wrote it wrong :P
I feel the two dark lords are meant to embody the essence of the two world wars. Morgoth being WW1, pointless destruction/violence without any real motive. Sauron as WW2/hitler, having an oversimplified authoritarian idea of world order as well as grudges carried over from the first conflict.
Interesting consideration, but I don't know if Tolkien ever tought about that.
Thats a cool idea
@@marcoparente7352 nobody knows exactly what his thoughts were. I think it's notable tho that the fall of the second dark lord heralded a new world order of general prosperity and peace, similar to the aftermath of WW2.
@@OrangesodaTR well, also the fall of the first dark lord...
@@OrangesodaTR Ha that's funny because we don't have peace at all we have merely entered an era of vanilla flavoured control with sprinkles ontop.
"Morgoth is just a big baby" is such an accurate description. He basically spends all his time throwing tantrums that cause chaos
I think it's more like he just does things that are out of sync with Illuvitar's order, which inevitably creates disruption. 'From a certain point of view' it could be argued that 'evil' in Tolkien's universe is just a result of the clashing between two different divine wills, both believing that they represent the correct way of doing things. I doubt Morgoth would actually want to create a world that was objectively evil, he just rebelled against Illuvitar's way and chaos was the inevitable result. It's also important to remember that Morgoth was himself created by Illuvitar, which suggests that evil was always a part of the plan all along. It seems like God needed the Devil
I mean his alignment is obvious chaotic evil.
say you wanted to play a game but everyone else wants to play a different one and god chose theme over you, would you not be irritated and start playing it passive aggressively
@@AeneasGemini Morgoth wasn't a divine will opposing another divine will, but a creature, a created being, opposing God. To fight against Eru's will is to be evil. Morgoth wanted to create, that is, to be God. Eru's plan had little to do with it. Had Eru said, "I'll make everything exactly as you want," Morgoth would still rebel because Eru would still be God. As for God needing Satan & evil (or Eru needing Morgoth & evil), this thinking comes from a poor understanding of Free Will & omniscience. God wanted Satan/Lucifer/the Devil to be Good, to follow Him, and so gave him free will so that he could. He also had the omniscience to know the result. The choice would always be Satan's though. For God to destroy that choice, that free will, would be for God to destroy that being.
@@markuhler2664 it depends but if Eru can see the future (which I’m pretty sure he can) then Morgoth is definitely intended, though Tolkien might have made Eru as a being not able to know the future, Tolkien from the quotes I have seen is ambiguous, since it could be interpreted that Eru created all possibilities but the beings of Eä can “freely choose” which possibilities.
It's a very good video; excellent work done! A few comments from me - becoming part of Arda was Melkor's way to take it over. In the aftermath, he is partially always 'alive' whatever happens to his spirit. Arda is corrupted and will be as long as it exists. The other thing is that Malkor is not entirely gone - he is in the Void, but being connected to the world keeps the possibility for his return open. So we are expecting a final battle, destruction of the corrupted Arda and the creation of a brand new world. Same for Sauron - we don't know what actually happened to him, as being ainu loss of the body is not the end of the line.
Morgoth was greedy and stupid despite being incredibly strong and powerful whereas Sauron was crafty and smart despite being far weaker. That was the difference between the two of them.
The power of deceit
actually Morgoth would've won had it not been for the interference of the Valar. It's a bit like Ramsey's arc in GoT. He played everything to perfection but hadn't counted on 10K knights of the vale suddenly arriving at the scene.
sauron was also ridiculously arrogant. he only lost, because of arrogance and the wrong assumptions he made, because of his arrogance.
Sauron is still my favourite villian what he lacked in physical strength he made up for it in intelligence he had big boots to fill for a being much more limited in power he deserves credit I'm more of a fan of his "control and dominate" style than Morgoth's nihilistic "destroy it all" approach. I also like that through Sauron's actions and manipulations, Eru literally had to change the shape of the world. I enjoy Sauron's obsession with craft, a nod to his service to Aule, and him being the thorn in the side of men, elves and dwarves for thousands of years. Yes Sauron was much less powerful than Melkor, his former master but he did manage to not get caught when the Valar imprisoned Morgoth. He also survived the onslaught of Ar-Pharazon of Numenor whose army was one of the most powerful gathered after the First Age and by his cunning rose high in the King's favor and tempted him to invade Valinor. He then survived the Breaking of the World and retreated to Middle-Earth where he rebuilt Mordor and caused great harm to the People there. He managed to survive the taking of the Ring by Isildur and slowly and cunningly rose to power again until he was finally undone by the destruction of the Ring. Even though he was much less powerful, he outlasted Morgoth by his cunning and deceit and I guess he deserves a bit of credit for that In my opinion, Sauron is the more charismatic, intelligent, wiser, and interesting of the two characters.
still evil.
@@stephenandersen4625 it's called appreciating a well written villain dummy
I agree entirely. I think that Sauron has more layers and more complex as a character. Morgoth is more a ripoff of Satan, but Sauron is a little more. Twice he nearly brought middle-earth under his heel, yet in the beginning, was too weak to achieve this by force and did it mainly with stealth and elaborate plans (especially in the beginning). Yet Sauron in the end, just became Morgoth, in that he made the same mistakes and despite all his cunning, he couldn’t conceive that strength and help could come from place like the hobbits.
I feel like sauron merely got lucky that the humans were so easy to control. Had isildur destroyed the ring, he would be finished. Before that, ar- pharazaon spared him in his vanity and overconfidence. Stupid fools.....
@Jim Harrington if u have read silmarillon, u will know morgoth was all of those too. It's just that he was strong enough to not merely resort to trickery at every turn. Sauron was lesser than his master in every way. Of course, LoTR hardly gives us a clear scale of power or a relative scale of abilities between characters.
I’d argue that Sauron’s world would be far from lawless and violent. He craved order. All the wonton violence and destruction and such was a means to an end. We can even see from Sauron’s proposed treaty at the black gate that he was cool with other nation’s maintaining order in his name. It might have been rigidly structured or enforced, but Sauron would not have wanted anything relating to recklessness or even violence beyond that explicitly sanctioned by him (e.g. formal executions and such)
Then why orc are with sauron? Orc arent peaucefull people
@@pincessenico4566 Even just his death leads to their catastrophic demise, so I take it he has severe control over their rights to existence, the ability to make them vanish with the snap of a finger would he so desire. Fear must certainly be a main contributor, if not a false promise of power.
His craving for order doesn't rule out violence. In fact, in his world view, that is revolving just around power, it will inevitably lead to "Might makes right", violence will prevail.
sauron craved order by destroying human and elven race which itself is chaos and disorder. and it was not means to and end. because his first aim was not order but to rule me.
@@pincessenico4566 If we are to believe this idea, the Orcs would just be tools. Means to an end. Or, alternatively, they'd be enforcers of imposed order rather than a natural one.
I love it when people can break down the lore of a series. I do this a lot with Dune, but not so much online as in person
I'm obsessed with dune 😍. I can't wait to see the second installment.
From the grand scope of things, considering that all Ainur are children of Iluvatar, I often see Melkor's actions as one of those naughty kids in the house attempting get his parents' attention by being "playful", and in return all he get his rejection and scolding, which ultimately caused the kid to get angry, rebel, and leave the house. It's even sadder when Melkor was trying to add his own theme to the music or mess around with the creation, Iluvatar simply told him and that his attempts to create further chaos will only end up serving his will as those things will ultimately bring out a more precious form a beauty (and those words were indeed fulfilled at the end of all things). Melkor was basically told by his parent that no matter what he does, following or rebeling, he is doing and will always be doing the exact thing his parent wanted him to do. Imagine how mad and powerless he felt when he heard that.
Imagine being the parent to a teenage know-it-all rebel kid sowing deliberately discordant music into the world because he wants to wield his parent's power and authority and dgaf who of his siblings or what of the created 'peasants' he has to chaotically or cruelly step on to make it happen. . Imagine how disheartened Eru felt knowing in advance that his gifted and once promising rebel-without-a-cause would choose evil every time, every chance. That his music has to be worked and weaved *around* instead of it flowing with his siblings' and dad's. Bbecause the kid will only ever corrupt, harm and destroy anything he can't be master of -- even though he'd never been entitled to it anyway.
P. S. In other words, pity the villain if you want, but never forget this grown-too-proud, malicious self-centered being born with a silver-spoon metaphorically in his mouth would rather see you (and everyone) dead if he can't have you (and all) enslaved. Some things just aren't justifiable or acceptable even if they are intellectually comprehendible, eh?
It's pretty fucked up Iluvitar when you think about it, one could say God is the biggest manipulator and evil since they are the ones that started this game of suffering and hope.
@@baph0metSave the gnostic nonsense for the other heretics please.
@@theredsir869touched a nerve, huh?
I dont think you give Morgoth enough credit here. His actions were organized and directed, he destroyed the world as it was planned to be and infused himself into all of creation itself. He slipped into madness as his actions could not turn into the results he wished. Also he was not a coward, he just knew how to use his power the best way, and that was in manipulation and commanding forces, not in direct confrontation with stronger forces like all the other Vala together.
Morgoth was a coward. Tolkien made it pretty clear morgoth was the embodiment of every negative quality and of all the valar only he knew fear. He was proud, petty, sadistic, cowardly, and a blatant liar. When fingolfin called him out he didn't even want to go out and fight. And when he finally was defeated he begged for pardon without shame. He was absolute evil and thereby, absolutely pathetic.
@@bobdole7451 He was also created that way. Good going, Eru. But this was all part of "the plan".
To be fair he's not getting enough justice here at all, the book tells us how he was the greatest Valar at everything until he wasn't (exactly like Fëanor) he did have a brain and he did use it, only significantly less after Ungoliant almost clapped him. He managed to trick the Valar and literally won a 1 vs 14 fight, twice, he's capable of spreading lies and discord in a hella efficent way, you see him whispering in someone's ear?Well next thing you know, a revolution starts the next day. Also he is capable of manipulating literally everyone, including the Valar . He had enough braincells as we know, in fact the thing that caused his downfall was his ambition, which isn't a bad thing to have, but it might become depending on how you develop as a person (whoops, let's go back to fiction)He wanted to persue an impossible goal, seeing the same goal being persued by someone else (literally God) made him gelous as heck, until he literally looses the capacity to feel any admiration whatsoever towards anything or anyone other than himself, the same thing also leads to him losing the ability to feel love of any kind, so yeahhhh Manwë, 3 ages in prison ain't gonna fix him. He made himself the monster he is, maybe he didn't even mean it, but did he care?Nope, did he try to stop himself from going down that path after realising it?Nope, he did not care 1 bit. He's the embodiment of every evil personality trait to have ever existed, but somehow he's still pretty fascinating as a character (may not be as complex as Sauron and Fëanor, but still), which is probably why many people, including me, actually like him. Also needless to say smart evil characters always work with the fans for some reason lol. Sauron and Melkor are different in substancially their view of the world, the first one wanted to rule the world to make it "perfect", the problem with that is that he viewed the world in a hyperlogical way, throw in the influence of the literal devil and boom, say bye to your ability to have positive feelings Mairon! Very differentlt, the second would literally get mad as hell because someone was smiling in his viewing distance. While one had good intentions but carried them out the wrong way, ultimately yeeting himself into darkness, the second one also had good intentions (at like the extreme beginning though, he wanted to do create life and tried to pretend, line from the book "even with himself" that he wanted to do good to the Elves when he saw them in the vision) but after realising he couldn't do what he wanted, and after accepting his proud ass would not let him do good stuff, he got all whiney and yeeted himself into darkness (while also giving Sauron a "hand" in following him in said yeeting into darkness).
@@TheSuperRatt Nah but for real, Eru here is viewed as a saint but homie was the one that caused it all. Did the Valar not even once think: "Wait, if Melkor is the embodiment of evil and is the cause of all the pain and misery on this planet including ours, and if Eru created Melkor, doesn't that mean...?" And did the Elves never ever think that?I mean we could argue Eru Illuvatar is that one artist or that one writer that shoves tons and tons of trauma and despair into their characters and stories because "why not?" I get it the bro created everything, but does it really justify allowing such horrible things to happen? Are we gonna forget about the one time the son of a delusional guy that followed his father out of fear and loyalty got nailed to a wall? We tend to forget that EVERYTHING that happens is happening because Eru said yes, so I wonder: were all the torturing and enslaving bits necessary, Eru? Also the fact that the Oath of Fëanor affected everyone that even barely came to contact with Fëanor's house was kinda bullshit, I mean cmon.
I just realized I wrote a long ass comment, when everything I said was already summarized in the original one, everything's right exept the coward bit, he was a coward for sure, I kinda don't understand how the mightiest being in the universe, only second to the literal creator, could possibly be afraid of something but ok, we know damn well he was terrified of Tulkas and Varda because...because yes ig, that's the only part of the Silmarillion that never made much sense to me.
I love morgoth because he's such a perfect character development of absolute evil. He was so powerful but because of his decline into evil he just became more and more bitter and petty and ultimately just a vindictive sniveling shell of his former power.
Vindictive sniveling shell of his former power, nice, bro.
Of course if you become darkness then you are utterly blind.
This is the eloquence you get from watching Spongebob
I don’t believe in absolute evil but I do believe in absolute good- JRR Tolkien. Melkor was not evil to begin. But he was the creator of all evil
From the grand scope of things, considering that all Ainur are children of Iluvatar, I often see Melkor's actions as one of those naughty kids in the house attempting get his parents' attention by being "playful", and in return all he get his rejection and scolding, which ultimately caused the kid to get angry, rebel, and leave the house. It's even sadder when Melkor was trying to add his own theme to the music or mess around with the creation, Iluvatar simply told him and that his attempts to create further chaos will only end up serving his will as those things will ultimately bring out a more precious form a beauty (and those words were indeed fulfilled at the end of all things). Melkor was basically told by his parent that no matter what he does, following or rebeling, he is doing and will always be doing the exact thing his parent wanted him to do. Imagine how mad and powerless he felt when he heard that.
This was frocking awesome, loved the lore, telling style and ofc the fully encompassing depth of analysis you dish out, man you dish that out with style. Take care brother
Thank you for crediting each artist individually. Great video.
Sauron was the far more clever and patient of the two. I think that he followed Morgoth to gain power to reshape existence after Morgoth had succeeded in his own initial goals.
My thoughts exactly. It is also implied that Melkor relied on Sauron's intellect quite a bit whenever he wanted to "create" (actually corrupt) more evil servants.
@@jakobrenner2230 implied where exactly ? The Silmarillion, The Children of Húrin, and The Fall of Gondolin ? I don't recall Melkor relying on Sauron in terms on intellect. Which book was this implied ?? Melkor was just as if wiser but he had the strength to bend things to his will. Sauron HAD to resort to more devious and craftier tactics because he didn't possess the strength to have the world bend to it's knees as Melkor did. As he did against Numenor and creating the rings to corrupt. Perfect example would be Superman. Has the intelligence to go against anyone intellectually but why do that if you can just brute force your way instead of that makes sense.
@@JRgaming27 good point. And if one where to compare superman with Batman, most people would say Batman is smarter, but that’s because he HAS to be. Very similar situation imo
@@mattiasandersson8693 exactly. Supes is from a family of brilliant scientist and has the mind of a super computer, but why do all that if he can punch his way out of any situation. Batman doesn't have that luxury. That said it's the same for Melkor and Sauron.
@@mattiasandersson8693 Batman IS smarter than Superman lol , Y'all say it like if let's say I have to be smarter than Einstein I can be lol , it doesn't work like that
To me, Sauron seems more human as a villain, in the sense that his motivations are somewhat understandable: it's the old dream of "if I were in charge, everything would be better!", and it's something everyone deals with to some extent. He's essentially a Saruman-like character, powerful enough to see the failings of rational creatures around him, but not wise enough to understand his own failings. While Melkor strikes me as more of an "elemental" villain: as in, an incarnation of a certain element of the human psyche, . He's a personification of pride (which is the beginning of evil, in the Christian sense: wanting to be like God, etc.), in the same way that Shelob could be a personification of gluttony and greed. One wants to control all he can, and destroy the rest: the other wishes for nothing but to consume all around it, to satisfy its ever-growing appetite. In a way, they complete each other very well. Although we all know none of these lords of evil can ever compare to the one true lord of evil: the One who is the Master, whose songs are greater songs and whose feet are faster...
This is an excellent comment.
Shelib is glutony only Greed are the dragons Wrath balrogs I think, pure flame of anger Not sure if envy lust etc have incarnation as well in tolkien With tolkien a devout catholic a creature per deadly sin would have fit
@@laresilience5829 I guess so... I don't think Tolkien really had that idea in mind. Though you could argue Morgoth had all these sins in one neat package: his original pride leads him to destructive anger, lying, and even to lust (over Lúthien)
I agree. Tom Bombadil is the true Lord of the Sith.
I think from this Analysis we can see why the books and movies were centered around Sauron and not Morgoth as, Sauron is more grounded and understandable, in a sense he can be defeated in a climax. Morgoth is cosmic and ambiguous, his desires inhuman and insane to us, his defeat is simultaneously possible but also desirable to himself. The scope of Morgoth is a psychadelic paradox requiring intense metaphysics to understand, while Sauron is a simple heroes journey type bad guy. I think the true horror of Morgoth is we are subject to his evil and once finding out about it we likely will not enjoy life or ourselves afterwards while say victory against Sauron comes with a restoration of mankind and the crowning of Aragorn as king of Gondor representing renewal. I feel like Morgoth is the type of shit Gandalf and the higher Elves keep to themselves because they know it would drive simpler minds insane. From my understanding of this work it is that Melkor seeded the world with evil and thus there can never be a lasting peace until there is some kind of final reckoning or end of the world. Sauron is merely a bump in the road or a divergent flight of fancy until the real battle.
I think an origin story of Sauron (sort of like better call Saul) and seeing that depicted as the Rings of power primary story line would’ve been super sick. Seeing the slow inevitable corruption of Sauron into the dark lord of the 3rd age would’ve been a pretty sweet anti hero show.
The thing is they can't use anything from the first age. They can only use the stuff that's in the appendices of the Lord of the Rings books
I mean that sorta happens....only it's Galadriel that seems to have corrupted Sauron XD One of the many ass-backwards things the show has done.
Better Call Sauron
Rings of Power had potential, too bad Amazon wrote Sauron as an idiot incel
@@edgeofhell5966 but whyy was the show hamstrung by such stupid limitations yet could bear the LotR name. The rights management of Tolkien's work makes no sense to me, and I can't wait for it to be in public domain
Nicely put together, clear and interesting, and you’ve got a good voice for it. Many thanks.
As I recall, Sauron, being trained under the universe's greatest smith, was once capable of great works. I imagine he envisioned great and beautiful structures and systems when he first dared to imagine Arda and MiddleEarth under his guidance. But I also imagine he thought of it in a static vacuum. I doubt he comprehended how things would coexist and operate under the true nature of Life...Life which constantly grows and changes, things Sauron tends to dislike. Even a simple forest is a complexity that any fortification or settlement must adapt to. His penchant for jagged designs and crude metal might be an attempt at efficiency and intimidation during his war campaigns, but I often wonder how he actually envisioned civilization to go under his rule. He seemed to think he knew what was best FOR the peoples of MiddleEarth, if only they'd go along with him. Naturally, they resist, he has to connive and war and deceive them and the focus of his original goal just gets eclipsed. But, in his ideal world, where everyone says, "oh yes, of course, Mairon, right this way, excellent idea, yes." What would it look like? As you pointed out, he seems to default to wiping out growth, and as we know, he has a way of using magic to bypass normal construction and limitations. Would it be a world of metal? Crude constructions and factories? Or, unresisted, would he have sleek constructions akin to Orthanc or Minas Tirith? I think, overall, assigning Maiar to one Valar alone was a slight mistake. Had Sauron learned from Yavanna or other Valar learned in nature, Sauron would better understand the role of life and changing form in the World. Such as it was, he learned much of Aule's knowledge of earth and fire, but as a Maiar he may not have perceived his sense of balance with the World and the other Valar.
I think he would try to make the world like a model. He would want everything to be perfect and yet, people move about and break things. His only solution to this would be to freeze people in place and pose them. Honestly would be a hellscape with people frozen in place for eternity in "perfect" cities and forests
@@jacobgame2757 The Dark Lord but he’s Lord Business from the Lego Movie of all things
@@jacobgame2757 The Dark Lord but he’s Lord Business from the Lego Movie of all things
@@jacobgame2757 maybe not freeze them, because then he can’t see the ingenuity of his perfect creation in motion. Maybe he just grows insane enough to just puppet the people of middle earth around in there day to day lives perpetually once big brother style tyranny doesn’t cut it.
Sounds like a totalitarian conservative. Also known as F word everyone likes to accuse their opponents of when talking politics.
I always thought of their difference more in this way, Melkor, as a Vala, sought utter conquest through the dissemination of his own inherent power, whereas Sauron, as a Maia, sought conquest by the collection of as much power as he could gain and control into one location, that being himself.
I would say your description of Sauron is spot on. As for Morgoth, I would replace utter conquest with destruction; the dissemination of his own power created Arda Marred, which damaged the world rather than aiding him in conquering it.
It's worth considering that this means that Sauron was drawing to himself much of the remaining power that Morgoth had left behind. It seems to me that in declaring himself to be "Morgoth returned", Sauron is expressedly trying to do this. In the elder scrolls there is a principle known as mantling, where an individual takes on the attributes of another (i.e., takes up their "mantle") to draw on their power, usually with the goal of attaining their own sort of ascension to heroism or godhood. In this way the original power is sort of eclipsed by the rising power, both sort of becoming infused with aspects of the other to become a greater single entity. I think that this is what Sauron was doing when he declared himself such, he really was trying to embody the original dark lord, while still bringing that power under his own sway. As one of Morgoth's chief agents, its possible that Morgoth himself even veiwed Sauron in this way- like a powerful weapon that he could continue to weild, even after he had been removed from Arda himself.
@@DarthGandalfYT "He who can destroy a thing, can control a thing" - Frank Herbert. This message is approved by Morgoth
Thank you for this insightful and informative video. I never looked into details of such characters so naturally i didnt know.
Great video, thats one of the best and most concise explanations about the relation between the two dark lords, amazing job!
"In all the deeds of Melkor the Morgoth upon Arda, in his vast works and the deceits of his cunning, Sauron had a part, and was only less evil than his master in that for long he served another and not himself." ~ J. R. R. Tolkien, "Valaquenta"
I kind of do think that people forget just how charismatic and cunning Morgoth could be. From the start of it with the music of the Ainur, really. He managed to corrupt numerous spirits throughout his entire run time. Balrogs, Sauron, some of the humans, etc. He wasn't just a brute when it came to his approach either and often relied on laying traps for his opponent, forcing them to give in to making mistakes with acts of pure, sheer malice so great that rage got the best of them and so on. The Battle of Sudden Flame is my favourite example. He manages so many underhanded moves on the enemies attacking him, which they never noticed until too late, that by the time he unleashes his final reserves, which were all cunningly also kept secret, along with Glaurung it's already a victory. He even gets disappointed with Glaurung when he breaks out in his infancy to wreak havoc on the elves because he revealed himself too early. If anything, he is *extremely* cunning and deceitful when he wants to be and not in any way a dumb brute. Saying that he is not a schemer, in my opinion, isn't correct at all. I don't really consider raw power something that plays too much of a role here either. Compared to the enemies he had and which he fought, I would say that Sauron was in a much better position on that front. Between fighting the Valar for untold ages while they were shaping the world, all on his own, to waging a war which took down the first lights and shattered Arda down the middle with Ungoliant an army of Maiar which he corrupted with, again, pure charisma or simply battling the far more powerful, in comparison to later ages, people of Middle Earth or the First Age for hundreds of years. He was very often the underdog and still came out on top, likely through strategy more than just simple, raw power.
Melkor had part of the power and understanding of the rest of the Valar and Maiar. He was skilled in subterfuge and persuasion and was skilled in the use of language (Quenya) that could scarce be equaled by any poet or loremaster. This is a being who could fool the other Valar (and it would be assumed that he did this when speaking with them mind to mind, as they had no need for language amongst themselves).
What’s the difference? Saurons power is the Ring. Morgoths power is evil itself.
Your channel is a gift to the world..LOTR stories needs to be preserved for further generations to come . 🙋♂️❤️
0-2 is a bit unfair since he did kill the 2 most powerful beings on the side of good during the War of the Last Alliance and Huan had the cheatcode of Prophesized Death that Sauron tried to be clever about.
So what you're saying is that Huan won, but was later found to be using performance enhancing drugs, and that Sauron vs Elendil/Gil-galad was a unanimous draw?
@@DarthGandalfYT I thought the 0-2 reference a bit off as well, for did not Sauron defeat Finrod in the duel at Tol-in-Gaurhoth?
@@seregrian5675 You know what? That's a good point. But I guess his duel with Finrod was with "magic" rather than physical weapons.
@@DarthGandalfYT Yeah since it was stated even pre Sauron vs Huan that only the Greatest werewolf ever could kill Huan so Sauron thought that him shapeshifting into one would fulfill the prophecy. But since Sauron was only in the form of one and was by his nature a Maiar he would have been destined to lose the fight. Morgoth ended up doing it right and made Carcharoth with the prophecy in mind and both he and Huan killed each other in battle. Also it could be considered a draw for Gil-Galad and Elendil since Sauron was mortally wounded after he killed them both.
@@salavantias1948 Still makes me mad that fucking Sauron who was the mightiest Maiar according to Tolkien wasn't a mightier wolf than Carcharoth , I get that Morgoth created him but he never created anything on a Maiar level since the dragons were simply created like the orcs , making Sauron bitch to Huan cause of that is kinda lame, Sauron definetly didn't lose the fight against Elendil and Gil-Galad since he was alive when both of them were already dead , It is very possible that if Isildur didn't cut off his finger he would have recovered fairly quickly so Sauron fair and square never lost a fight
Ever interesting, always informative, touching on the finer nuances of the lore. Wonderful work.
I'd love to see Morgoth faithfully brought to the screen
Would you now
@@Theemptythroneistaken want some shiny stones from Valanor?
@@OthelloSilvermoon Want to see what two dead trees look like?
I didn't ponder these questions before, taking Sauron for Morgoth 2.0, where I obviously was mistaken, as you convincingly explain. Very interesting!👍
Both could definitely be good Dark Souls bosses.
Lol
they are not hard enough for dark souls
Let's be honest, Sauron would be an easy Dark Souls boss for the simple fact that instead of using that giant ass Mace he has, he'd just try to grab you instead and get his only strength cut from his hand 😆😆
Why?
Yeah, well, if they ever did a LOTR style Souls game, you can bet your ass that I am going to play that.
Fun fact: People think Sauron was huge for a humanoid, towering over most at ~ 3 meters tall ( ~9'5) , could easily throw dozens of humans around with his mace. Morgoth was ~ 12 meters tall ( ~40 foot).
We have no numbers for how tall either of them were. Sauron and Morgoth were tall, but not gigantic.
Correct, technically these are just estimates fans have made based on some descriptions in the books, which are not consistent at all. Morgoth is described being as tall as a tower and as big as a hill in his tyrant form, yet in the battle vs Fingolfin (who is about 7-8ft) he's able to step on his neck, so he couldn't be more than 15-20ft tall and there are more such instances. Sauron was as tall as an elf in his original form, however he could shapeshift and change his size, so we could only speculate, but in the third age when he revealed his dark lord form he was much taller than any humanoid. Still, considering how big the Balrogs and the Dragons were, especially Ancalagon, it doesn't seem unlikely that Sauron and Morgoth could be quite gigantic themselves, compared to a hobbit per say.
@@pubx1312 Morgoth got smaller over time as his power in his personal form waned. In the beginning, the Valar were truly gigantic (but they were also not truly physically incarnate, only Morgoth ever became fully incarnate among the Valar): "a mountain that wades in the sea and has its head above the clouds and is clad in ice and crowned with smoke and fire; and the light of the eyes of Melkor was like a flame that withers with heat and pierces with a deadly cold." It seems likely that Morgoth (and the Maia who served him, including Sauron and the Barlogs) were in the range of 12 to 20 feet tall in the time of the First Age.... when Ecthelion fought Gothmog in Gondolin, Ecthelion was about half (or a bit more) of Gothmog's height--putting the Balrog around 12-15 feet. Morgoth would have been larger but probably not by much.
nah morgoth would take the forms tall as mountains as he wished. later stuck to a smaller body due to losing power
Not true… and it never says anywhere in the text that Sauron used a mace. That’s a Peter Jackson thing. Books say he used his hands.
Thankyou sir, this was a thoughtful and entertaining piece of content.
I should make a minor correction to your final point that "Morgoth and Sauron ended up in the same place". They absolutely did not; Morgoth was cast through the Door of Night into the Void, a place entirely outside the material Universe of space and linear time (which in Tolkien's legendarium consists only of the world of Arda and its atmosphere, with the sun, moon and stars existing on a plane in the very uppermost layers of said atmosphere). Sauron was never cast from the World, so even to this day his disembodied spirit still roams Earth as a shapeless, impotent malice. It's just that he suffered such a catastrophic loss of his native power when the One Ring was destroyed, that he will never again be able to amass enough strength to threaten the world, either as a bodiless spirit or as a fully-physical being. According to a passage in the Silmarillion which, for some reason, Christopher Tolkien decided to leave out of the published version, Morgoth will eventually find his way back into the world, at the Dagor Dagorath ("Battle of All Battles", basically analogous to the End of Days in most mythologies).
You are correct. I thought I was being clever with that finisher, but nothing gets by Tolkien fans.
Won't Sauron be reincarnated along with all other evil beings at the Dagor Dagorath?
@@AeneasGemini yeah Morgoth mere pressence is enough to return Sauron to his full powered physical form
I know this is epic high fantasy, but I can't help but laugh when I think about how the characters would react after Morgoth's escape, like they put him in this place that's out of space and time, and yet he gets out. Also Eärendil, we know he would keep an eye of him with his disco-floating ship every now and then, I kinda headcanon that moment as everyone running around panicking, with the Valar raging at Eärendil: "Ehem, guys, we have a problem" "What problem?Everything's good, that evil Maia in Middle Earth has been gone for so long now, so what could possibly have happened now" "First off I wanted to tell you that you're the best and I admire you so much and-" "Bro, get to the point" "Weeeelll, Morgoth's kinda not..kinda not where you left him" "WHAT DO YOU MEAN HE'S NOT WHERE WE LEFT HIM?!" "HE'S JUST NOT MAN IDK HE'S GONE" "YOU WERE SUPPOSED TO MAKE SURE THAT DIDN'T HAPPEN" "BRO I WAS AWAY FOR 2 SECONDS, BLAME YOUR STUPID GUARDS" "HOW DID THIS EVEN HAPPEN?!" "IDK BRO ASK ERU OR SOMETHING"
It says here in this verse from The Silmarillion Sauron did go to the Void. "In all the deeds of Melkor the Morgoth upon Arda, in his vast works and in the deceits of his cunning, Sauron had a part, and was only less evil than his master in that for long he served another and not himself. But in after years he rose like a shadow of Morgoth and a ghost of his malice, and walked behind him on the same ruinous path down into the Void.” --Silmarillion, Valaquenta, Of The Enemies, Page 20.
This was an excellent piece of work. I wish you’d do longer more detailed things like this. Thanks for all your efforts.
Thank you for this dissertation. I quite enjoyed it.
The writings pre-date D&D so I thought it funny that Morgoth sounds like he has a chaotic evil alignment and Sauron sounds like he has a lawful evil alignment. It made me wonder if Tolkien had continued with the sequel would the villain in the 4th Age end up with something like a neutral evil alignment. Probably not. But if I'm ever DM-ing in the 4th Age setting, that's what I would do to make things different than before.
Based on some of his statements, it's likely the big bad would have been one or both of the Blue Wizards, since Tolkien wrote in a letter that they were most likely the main leaders of the cults of Morgoth after Sauron's defeat
@@BroadwayRonMexico tolkien wrote a lot of conflicting stuff about the blue wizards. everything is just speculation and nothing is for sure about them. I think ungoliant can be described very well as neutral evil, a pure force of nature
I think short videos are great, but I'd personally enjoy listening to longer, detailed videos. Great work dude!!
The way I see it. Morgoth and Sauron’s relationship is like Sith master and Sith apprentice. One that is all powerful and one that hungers for power.
One of the best videos of Morgoth and Sauron out there.
Great explanation! Always wondered about this.
Gothmog gets no love he held the same rank as Sauron in Morgoths army. It was also him and his other Balrogs that saved Morgoths butt when he was about to get owned by Ungoliant. He may not have been as strategic as Sauron but in a straight up fight in the first age I would put my money on Gothmog over Sauron.
Gothmog was the brawns and Sauron was the brains of Morgoth's organization imho. They both had an abundance of what the other lacked. I guess that's why Morgoth held them both equally as his top commanders.
Considered how Sauron got owned by a dog, I bet
@@nicbahtin4774 “I-it was a big dog!” - Sauron probably
@@anthonymcrooster3703 I'm sensing a Darth Maul and Count Dooku situation. Two halves of the same coin (aggression & collectedness.)
@@nicbahtin4774 To be fair, that dog literally had a death prophecy, so I don't think Gothmog would have beaten him either
Sauron used some spells/powers like: a) Volcano Control - Orodruin; b) Shapeshift; c) Earthquake; d) Weather Control; e) Dominate Monster; f) Mass suggestion; g) antimagic field; h) Sympathy; i) Create undead; J) Dispel Magic; Etc These powers were used by Melkor/Morgoth. I don't emember another servant who could do the same.
And who could forget Burning Fists of Fury which he used to great effect on Gil-galad.
Sympathy?
@@dreliq981 "Yes, to Mordor,’ said Gandalf. ‘Alas! Mordor draws all wicked things, and the Dark Power was bending all its will to gather them there. The Ring of the Enemy would leave its mark, too, leave him open to the summons. And all folk were whispering then of the new Shadow in the South, and its hatred of the West. There were his fine new friends, who would help him in his revenge"
@@DarthGandalfYT margoth would probably win in a fight I assume ?
@@jummyran Most of the time, yes. But Morgoth had weakened a great deal by the end of the First Age to the point of where Sauron was actually stronger for a short time.
Excellent video!
This video was unbelievably awesome!! Well done sir. There is one thing in the beginning I wish you would have put in. You mentioned Melkor being the strongest of his tier, the Valar. If I'm not mistaken, Sauron was also the strongest of the second tier, the Miar. And, others in the second tier included the wizards. Obviously such as Gandalf and Sauruman who were no where near as powerful as Sauron.
not quite, if sauron was that powerful he probably wouldve commanded dragons and balrogs to join him.
While Morgoth is the OG big baddy, I always favoured Sauron more as a villain. Sauron was conniving, manipulative, cruel and hella patient which overall makes him appear more evil in overall grand intention/motivation. Good video mate!
There was a time after the LotR movies when I really, really wished to see the great wars and stories of the First Age to be on film. Today I´m praying they don´t get their hands on the IP... But man... if done right it would be such a blast!
I would love to see Children of Hurin adapted to film. I reckon there's easily enough there for two movies, possibly three if you some of Tuor's story was included.
@@DarthGandalfYT And what a great story it is! But they might need to hand out tissues... Farewell, oh twice beloved! Túrin Turambar turun ambartanen - Master of Doom, by Doom mastered! Oh happy to be dead! I love this story!
@@DarthGandalfYT we have hundreds of years of films to go. Hope you last, too.
@@DarthGandalfYT That would be a hard pitch to make to a studio: a hero who is a dour jerk most of the time and all the main characters die tragically.
I SERIOUSLY DO NOT want to see the First Age, or the Second Age, or anything else from Tolkiens works be put on film. I don't want modern sjw politics inserted into Tolkiens work like I hear that AWFUL amazon LOTR knockoff garbage is doing, going "woke". They don't have nearly enough respect for either Tolkien or his material. They don't have the RESPECT to hold back on THEIR OWN politics but instead honor Tolkien and push HIS message. They also hate Christians so that's another reason they would never push Tolkiens message. I think highly of Peter Jackson for having the balls to actually respect Tolkiens works and do just that; convey TOLKIENS message not your own modern leftist beliefs(Tolkien was NOT a leftist in any stretch of the imagination and that Amazon show is freaking offensive to any Tolkien fan). That's also prob why Peter Jackson was never brought on to help with Amazons LOTR knockoff garbage. Because he would insist on being true to the lore, and there would be no warrior full plate armor Galadrial(lol), or a black dwarf queen(also, lol), black elves, and gay couples, and other leftist abominations/wet dreams. I seriously just wanna wait till modern Hollyweird freaking dies until I see any studio from there make ANY Tolkien related material. I like Tolkiens works more than any other fiction; even more than George Lucas Star Wars(which was also destroyed by these same "woke" sjw assholes); I DONT wanna see it ruined, tarnished, degraded, and destroyed, like I have heard Amazons garbage does to it - and like I could tell by its trailer alone. Btw Galadrial is NOT a warrior in the sense that she wears full plate armor from the 15th or 16th century and uses a longsword(thats ABSURD for Galadrial). And Elven women were NOT warriors same as women of the race of Man, despite hollyweird's modern SJW politics. Nevertheless Galadrial, when she is forced to fight, is extremely powerful; but shes powerful because of her great MAGIC, because she is one of the bearer's of the Elven rings of power, which greatly amplifies the magical abilities she already had and gives her new ones too, particularly better control over nature itself. And if Galadrial was gonna have a weapon AT ALL(she wouldnt but lets pretend here) it would be a Bow and knife for close combat like the rest of the Galadhrim. But aside form Eowyn "female warriors" aren't a thing in Tolkiens works, any more than they were in real life(or STILL ARE in real life to this very day; women in the military arent sent to the frontlines and the answer to that is too obvious to even say). Women have other roles and other power's in Tolkiens works even the powerful ones; just like the real world. They aren't Men with breasts like the feminist leftist nutcases want people to think, like that RIDICULOUSLY OFFENSIVE Amazon Lord of the Rings knockoff and its writers want to pretend. And frankly, expecting women to have the same qualities as Men(and calling them useless or "sexist" if they don't have those qualities in a movie) is DEGRADING to women and their own specific role and abilities, it denies femininity itself. That's what feminism has always been about, trying to make people believe that Women are the exact same as Men and have the exact same natural abilities and inclinations and skills and abilities and so on. People are NOT equal. People have, and SHOULD HAVE, equal rights UNDER THE LAW but people are inherently NOT EQUAL, not between the sexes, not between races, and most of all not between individuals. And the Dwarves hid their women; Dwarven women not only had beards but they didn't like leaving their homes. That black dwarven queen(why is she black? No clan of dwarves is black AT ALL. Why would people who live underneath MOUNTAINS for THOUSANDS OF YEARS be BLACK? wtf?) is just as offensive as Galadrial in that amazon show. Damn. Don't trust hollyweird EVER. Pray that the woke agenda DIES a painful death in hollyweird before any more LOTR stuff gets made, or better yet that Amazon sells off the IP. They got rid of Tom Shippey you know; the only guy capable of forcing them to respect Tolkiens lore, highly respected in the Tolkien community. That's an indication of what they think of all of us who like Tolkiens works like LOTR and Silmarillion and all the others.
Well done. Two characters that provide insight into how Tolkien saw the world. Morgoth is more like the classic Lucifer figure, a mythic representation of a fall from grace that he believed was an important part of any mythos. Sauron was tied more to his rejection of industrialization and national conflict in the real world. No other artist, at any other time, would likely have concocted such a combination of villains.
Madara and Obito
so good.... thanks for creating this!
The idea that it was difficult to keep this video as brief as you did shows that these two have much more depth than they're given credit for.
Excellent explication of the differing natures of these two characters. You just earned yourself a subscriber.
thanks, I really enjoyed the art work
WELL DONE! You spoke a little quickly at times, but other than that; I absolutely loved your take on Sauron.
Morgoth was like a double barrel shot gun sawed off of evil Sauron is like the Winchester Super X1 of evil
I love this analogy 😂
Easy: one is a genius god-like sorcerer that infused his malevolent spirit within a ring and the other is the sentient cosmic force of pure evil that infused his very essence within the entirety of Arda.
The problem with Sauron's end-game was that he would create his own nightmare. With the destruction of nature and animals all under his dominion would eventually starve to death or die of some other indirect consequences of his unrestrained destruction. In a small way he would give his master Morgoth the victory indirectly.
Think it was more destroying unbound nature. Not leaving a forest so massive you can't control what happens in it, not letting colossal herds of animals have free reign etc. Weirdly makes me think of Sauron opening dark national parks, hard set in their areas, but controllable.
@@DracoSafarius That.....actually sounds like something he would do.
sauron does not want to destroy nature, he just wants to control all of nature. I think this assumption, that he would destroy it comes from the movies where mordor is depicted as a volcanic wasteland, but the region around the sea of nurn was very fertile and used for industrial farming to properly supply his massive armies. It was basically nature, but he controlled it.
Excelent video!
Incredible video. I liked your take and explanation of their character and differences. You got Sauron's character dead on. Sauron makes me thing of Jacen, from Star Wars lore. He was one of the most talented jedi in existence, with a knack for discipline, economy, organization, and was utterly selfless. He saw no other being capable nor with the strength of character to do what was right even if it cost everything.
So basically Sauron = lawful evil and morgoth = chaotic evil
Hitler Stalin
Very good summary, thanks.
Happy 1 MILLION views on this one DG, wishing you continued success. Always looking forward to your new weekly release. Take care & good luck. BR
Morgoth destroyed the Pillars of light, the two trees of light and sank a whole continent. The sun and moon were made because of him.
And he tried to attack the moon dude once too lol
@@grassblock7668 Talk about anger management issues!😅
@@Facade953 Fr!
@@grassblock7668 who is the moon dude again, I can't remember
@@Test-mq8ih The moon dude is a Maiar named Tillion
Nothing, in my view, illustrates the discrepancy in methods, personality and power between these two than the image of Burad-dur set before towering Orodruin. The dark tower with it's ordered symmetry, artifice and function dwarfed by the asymmetrical, primal fury of the mountain of fire.
Cheers for crediting the artists!!!
An interesting example of Sauron's less extreme nature that wasn't mentioned was the terms he offered the Western leaders at the Black Gate when they confronted his forces - he would spare all of them and let them return to their own lands, provided they recognised Sauron's dominion and became his vassals. He wouldn't even rule them directly, but would still let them run their own affairs so long as they didn't conflict with Sauron's plans. Considering how much trouble they'd caused Sauron, this seems very generous and reasonable, and certainly not something Melkor would have done.
I think, that Sauron was lying to them....
@@luiswohlrab4847at least Sauron actually bothers with lying
Imo I say that Sauron more realistic in his goals. And the experiences he had taught him to be patient. With the exception of moving fast after aragorn revealed himself to Sauron, Sauron largely seemed to have learned from his mistakes... But not enough to repent
I think it was about the attire. Margoth came dressed in the "gimmie your lunch money" style of swag, whereas Sauron's dress code was a little more subdued but terrible. He gave the impression that, he could have stood on that bridge, like Gandolf, facing down a balrog, slamming down his mace and screaming, "Who's your daddy?"
Sauron looks like a femboy
Repent and follow Jesus my friend! Repenting doesn't mean confessing your sins to others, but to stop doing them altogether. Belief in Messiah alone is not enough to get you into heaven - Matthew 7:21-23, John 3:3, John 3:36 (ESV is the best translation for John 3:36). Contemplate how the Roman empire fulfilled the role of the beast from the sea in Revelation 13. Revelation 17 confirms that it is in fact Rome. From this we can conclude that A) Jesus is the Son of God and can predict the future or make it happen, B) The world leaders/nations/governments etc have been conspiring together for the last 3000+ years to accomplish the religion of the Israelites C) History as we know it is fake. You don't really need to speculate though because you can start a relationship with God and have proof. Call on the name of Jesus and pray for Him to intervene in your life. - Revelation 3:20 Revelation 6 1st Seal: White horse = Roman Empire conquering nations under Trajan 98-117 AD & Gospel spreading rapidly. 2nd Seal: Red horse, bloody civil wars with 32 different Emperors, most killed by the sword. 185-284 AD 3rd Seal: Black horse, economic despair from high taxes to pay for wars, farmers stopped growing. 200-250 AD 4th Seal: Pale horse, 1/4th of Romans died from famine, pestilence; at one point 5,000 dying per day. 250-300 AD 5th Seal: Diocletian persecuted Smyrna church era saints for ten years, blood crying out for vengeance. 303-312 AD 6th Seal: Political upheaval in the declining Roman Empire while the leaders battled each other. 313-395 AD Revelation 7 Sealing of 144,000, the saints, before trumpet war judgments, which led to the fall of the Roman Empire. Revelation 8 1st Trumpet: Alaric and the Goths attacked from the north, the path of hail, and set it on fire. 400-410 AD 2nd Trumpet: Genseric and the Vandals attacked the seas and coastlands, the blood of sailors in water. 425-470 AD 3rd Trumpet: Attila and the Huns scourged the Danube, Rhine & Po rivers area, dead bodies made water bitter. 451 AD 4th Trumpet: Odoacer and the Heruli caused the last Western Emperor (sun), Senate (moon) to lose power. 476 AD With the Western Roman Emperor (restrainer of 2 Thes. 2) removed; the son of perdition Popes took power. Revelation 9 Two woe judgments against the central 1/3rd and eastern 1/3rd of the Roman Empire. 612-1453 AD 5th Trumpet: Locust & scorpions point to Arabia, the rise of the Muslim army. Islam hides Gospel from Arabs. 612-762 AD 6th Trumpet: Turks released to attack Constantinople with large cannons (fire, smoke, brimstone). 1062-1453 AD Revelation 10 The little book is the printed Bible, which was needed after the Dark Ages when Scriptures were banned by Popes. Revelation 11 7th Trumpet: Martin Luther measured Roman Church; found that it’s an apostate church, not part of true temple. The two witnesses are the Scriptures and saints who proclaim the pure Gospel and testify against the antichrist Popes. Papal Church pronounced Christendom dead in 1514 AD. Silence for 3.5 years. Then Luther posted his 95 Thesis, which sparked the Protestant Reformation and brought the witnesses back to life. Millions of Catholics were saved. Revelation 12 Satan used the Roman Empire to try to wipe out the early Church, Satan was cast down as the Empire collapsed. Revelation 13 The antichrist beast Popes reigned in power 1,260 years, 538-1798, is the little horn of Daniel 7, son of perdition. The false prophet Jesuit Superior General rose to power from land (earth) of Vatican and has created many deceptions. Revelation 14 Points to great harvest during the Protestant Reformation & wrath on Catholic countries who obey antichrist Pope. Revelation 15 Overcoming saints victorious over the beast. Prelude to 7 vials and judgment on those who support Papal Rome. Revelation 16 1st Vial: The foul sore of atheism was poured out on Catholic France, leaving them with no hope, led to revolution. 2nd Vial: The French Revolution started in 1793, killed 250,000, as France had obeyed the Pope and killed saints. 3rd Vial: The French Revolution spread to rural areas of France, where Protestants had been killed in river areas. 4th Vial: The bloody Napoleonic wars shed the blood of countries who had revered and obeyed the antichrist Pope. 5th Vial: Judgment on the seat of the beast. Papal States invaded in 1798, Pope imprisoned, removed from power. 6th Vial: The Turks vast domain dried up, they were only left with Turkey. They lost control of Palestine in 1917 AD, Israel became a nation again in 1948
@@TheDarkblue57 When in elf form, yes. Elves are femboys
Amazing Job! thanks , I needed that lol
Thank you for the explanation!
I greatly appriciate that you state by who were these artworks made by. great video keep up good work :)
The greatest crimes of Morgoth are quite vague since we are given no details by Tolkien - destroying the works of the other Valar prior to the awakening of the Children of Ilúvatar, teaching men to fear the Gift of Death, and corrupting Arda so everything diminishes with time.
Is that way magic is fading in Lotr? Because Melkor/Morgoth poured his power into Arda? I thought that was by design, then again i did read somewhere that Eru kinda wanted Morgoth to be the way he was, so i suppose that events itself out.
@@Zero60133 Ultimately, I don't think Eru is as concerned about Morgoth as the Valar. Magic started fading from the time Aman got separated from the rest of Middle-Earth. The exodus of the elves just accelerates it.
those seem to be pretty specific crimes.
@@stephenandersen4625 The details are vague compared to say hanging Maedhros off the side of Thangorodrim by one of his wrists.
There really isn't any "magic" in Arda in the common sense of fantasy magic. What "magic" you see is the natural abilities of the people involved. The Ainur have a deep understanding of the nature of the world (after all they helped design it) and their nature is such that they can manipulate the very fabric of the world as a natural ability. The elves have a similar, if lesser, power and a similar, if lesser knowledge--and they had long exposure to the Ainur and their knowledge. The Dwarves have a preternatural skill (from a human perspective) in the making of things and the understanding of this--as would seem only logical in the children of Aule. They are, from the evidence, actually equal or better craftsmen than the Eldar, saving the rare instance of Feanor and perhaps Eol. The humans don't have any magic that is discernable--in the rare causes we see this it is largely "borrowed" magic through items or association with actual powers (like Morgoth or Sauron). Remember that the royal lineage of Numenor is part Eldar, part Ainur, and human--which accounts for their abilities.
Cool vid man!
Thx for the great content!
In D&D rules, Morgoth is more similar to Demons of the Abyss while Sauron is more similar to the Devils of the Nine Hells.
So morgoth is chaotic evil while sauron is lawful evil.
morgoth would depose demogorgon, where sauron might be able to take over one layer of hell
@@kingmasterlord Sauron would be pretty successful in my opinion. He would likely end up as one of the top devils in the Nine Hells. As, similarly to the real great devils of the setting, he has great power, but his real potency is his brain, his cunning, and his knack for manipulation. He'd scheme the absolute shit out of the realms of Hell and play the powers against one another, only to come out on top in the end. Then possibly lose later, because DND Hell is a perpetual cycle of betrayal caused by unchecked ambition.
Melkor had substantial innate power, which allowed him to lash out against the creation he hated, without needing to scheme or rely so much on collaborations. Sauron lacked that power and desire to destroy, which forced him to scheme and be structured to get what he wanted and to preserve what he wanted to control/rule. If Sauron had Melkor's power and wanted to destroy everything, then he probably would have acted Silmaril-larly (similarly). JMO.
Absolutely love how you break it down. I'm a huge fan of the LotR and the hobbit but I never read the books maybe 1 day. But you fill in the voids of story perfectly.
Thanks for comparing these two villains. One desired chaos while the other desired power and domination.
Great video essay.
Morgoth literally corrupted the entirety of the world, he was only second in power to Eru. Sauron was an ant to Morgoth. It's too bad so many people don't go beyond the Hobbit and LoTR
Morgoth is inherently more powerful than Sauron by default because he was a Valar and Sauron was a Maiar. There’s no denying Morgoth is beyond Sauron in terms of power, but in my opinion, Sauron is a far more interesting character and villain. Not to mention, for all the power Morgoth had, he was a bit of a coward and was humiliated by Tulkas.
@@BN-or3ug You only think that because Sauron is more developed than Morgoth. More was written about him.
@@themonsterunderyourbed9408 I think there's a different reason for him to think so. Morgoth was far more evil than Sauron, the more evil someone becomes the more one dimensional their character development is.
Melkor is way better dude was fighting 1v14 and manage to win 2 times
@@ankityadav6447 too bad he was kind of a dumbass and coward compared to much more intelligent Sauron
Sauron: "You need all the help you can get, I have some friends, Laurens, Mulligan, Marquis de Lafayette, okay, what else? Morgoth: "Who?"
A brilliant summation. 👏
Amazing lore video! It's interesting how different they are. I have to say despite his descent to darkness and evil, Sauron is such a badass character! Also, all the fanart in this video 😍😍😍 props to all artists
I think the appearance of those two perfectly match their difference. Morgoth is in black armor with an iron crown and a huge hammer showing how he is a force of destruction, Sauron is often depicted as a mage showing is intelect and duplicity. (then the movie made Sauron look like Melkor so...)
Mairon was Goth, but Melkor was Morgoth
lol
This pun is legendary!
The right hand of Melkor/Morgoth was not Sauron, but instead was Gothmog the Lord Of the Balrog. But you were right in some detail such as Sauron is "The Brain" of Angband while Gothmog is "The Muscle".
Exactly Sauron is right hand of Aule
Sauron was his Chief Lieutenant. Thus, he is Morgoth's right hand.
@@SithFTW4072 and what's your prove of this?
@@billytobing5774 The Silmarillion
@@SithFTW4072 in what chapter of silmarillion which stated clearly that sauron is the chief liutenant?
Great video 👍
I think a more interesting and fair comparison would be between Sauromann and Sauron. Would honestly like a video on that now that I think off it.
Sauron: So, master, I believe that if we lure the main phalanx of the valar’s forces to attack us by venturing deep in the roots of the world, we can trap them into an unwinnable war of attrition that will… Morgoth: Yeah, yeah, that’s fascinating… Hey, say, me and that bigass spider over there are off to steal the Silmarils, so don’t wait for us, we won’t be back before a while. Okay bye !
Exactly when Morgoth saw the Silmarils his ambitioned changed
CANON!
Thank you for doing this. I never understood the difference between the two.
I think Sauron in the 3rd age had lost his mind due to his body being destroyed by Eru and then losing his ring. Kinda like how Voldemort became more and more insane as he made more Horcruxes. So to understand Sauron's true nature and motivation we have to examine the Sauron before the destruction of Numenor. The most important factor for Sauron's motivation is Eru's plan for Middle Earth: All magics will fade away, and there will only be humans. Sauron does not like that, he wish the world could run in perfection forever without aging and deterioration. His rings of power were in fact the only thing keeping the elves stay powerful in Middle Earth. After destroying them, the elves had to leave or they will wither away. But only elves had a place to go, other magical species had no other option but to go extinct, and that's what happened in 4th age according to Eru's plan. I believe Sauron originally really wanted to "save" Middle Earth from such fate, but complete order and harmony also means everything will be under his watch and control.
voldemort made corcruxes when he was tom,no ? .