The B-17: The Ally's Most Potent Anti-U-Boat Machine? | The Wolfpack and Flying Fortress | Timeline
2020 ж. 25 Қар.
783 266 Рет қаралды
A closer look at two of WW2's most terrifying and influential war machines that dominated their respective arenas: the Boeing B-17 Flying Fortress and The German 'U-Boat' submarine.
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The Timeline series on WW2, with golden-voiced narrator Edwin Mulhare and music by talented film composer Chris Young, is well above the others in depth and quality. Young's music for battle sequences, featuring a piano and studio orchestra, is some of the most dramatic.
The leadership may have not understood war was coming but everyone else did One of My uncles joined the Navy in '38 because he knew the war was coming and said he joined so he could choose what branch he served in. He was not alone in this.
The Liberator had a long thin wing based on a bird that cruised long range effortlessly the Albatross. The Liberator had a huge range and really closed the gap in the Atlantic the subs could work without fear of being bombed or depth charged from the air. Wing had required lift with very low drag.Great vid showing its build and mass production at work. Willow run was the name of the place the Liberator production plant was built search on KZhead for it.
I grew up just a few miles from Willow Run. In the fifties it was all but abandoned. Never realized it's historicall significance. One bomber an hour.
You realize that Liberator pilots had knee troubles from fighting the aircraft, right?
B 24 had a 'Davis wing'(low drag, low lift).
Consolidated Aircraft first factory was alongside of San Diego's airport. (You can see the ramp where they also rolled the PBY Catalina into the bay in certain older photos). Willow Run was built and run by Ford, and it took a long time (at least by wartime standards) before they were able to get a B-24 to pass inspection! The plant later became a GM car factory. If you can get access, there's a place in there, just before the large doors that let the B-24s out, with extremely thick walls pocked with literally thousands if not millions of bullet strikes from where they tested the .50 caliber machineguns!
@@banana_junior_9000 Consolidated provided the (bloody good) planes, the Forces found suitable pilots. e.g., The PBY needed pilots with strong shoulders and arms and probably a core to match.
They refer to the aircraft as "combat weary". In my experience as a USN Aircrewman when we flew our aircraft continuously they performed great. Let them have some down time and they became Hangar Queens. Just miserable to get them flying again.
As. A mechanic you are right
@@garychurch9237 thanks! Great answer.
Aside from a few editing issues I assume are from the upload copy this was a really well done and presented documentary - I've seen hundreds and this offered mostly unique footage and was edited in such a way that it really showed content related to the dialog. Well played sir!
Are there any you would recommend? This is the only good one I've seen. Thanks.
Prone: do you remember what editing issues you spike of
I had this on vhs, it's just old I dunno about "editing issues"
Nice to see Tom Landry once again. One more Goal !
1940 to 1943 contribution to Convoy cover by B17's of RAF 59, 206 and 220 squadrons completely left out as usual. These squadrons together with others did what they could with what they had and paid the price. Also were heavily involved in the Radar trials/development so that later when the more suitable Liberator came along they took advantage of the earlier work - but take most of the credit.
Yes this title would suggest a single documentary about the RAF Coastal Command and their use of the B17 to locate and destroy U-Boats.
The Sunderland and the Catalina working with Coastal Command certainly had the tools to attack subs.
Admiral King was responsible for the loss of life and shipping on the East Coast, he refused to listen to the Brits about convoying and protection with warships.
Along with McArthur a useless tactician.
This is a crime. History has prosecuted him
If FDR had not traded 50 million 1919 USD of destroyers for non existent bases and Lend Leased aircraft from March 1941, King would have had plenty of escorts and aircraft.
@@nickdanger3802 King would have blown that, too. What was he thinking? Put all those seamen in danger, causing so much loss of life. He never should have been given the command.
@@markscience1 Compare Kings' record to Pounds'.
Considering the huge amount of material that crossed the Atlantic non-stop to join the allies, we may say that Doenitz had not ever a chance of suceeding
Amazing how compact that Lancaster cockpit is, and how exposed it must have felt when the flak shells started exploding!
my service no was 24120643, we must have both joined up at roughly the same time :) still rem,ember it even though I'm 70 now lol
@@peterforden5917 I joined in 1995 and I'm 46.
Pilots who transferred from older bombers like the Wellington remarked on the spacious cockpit 😊. There’s a Wellington at the Brooklands Museum, the cockpit is truly tiny compared to the Lancaster
@@michaelawford7325 Even smaller on the Hampden I'd guess!! That thing wasn't all that much bigger than a fighter.
20:20 that must have been an interesting meeting with Donets, oh to be a fly on the wall !
It must have been. I have had the opportunity to spend evenings drinking with retired U boat captains on 3 different occassions. It was a fascinating experience. Somehow, they all seem to come out of the war rich, and then get interest free loans of US money to become even richer, but I don't begrudge them a penny. Interestingly, all three independently didn't have a very high opinion of Doenitz which was completely contrary to everything I had heard about him beforehand.
My great grandpa took out two U-Boats. They dropped a set of 4 depth charges and a few minutes later a large slick and body parts came to the surface in both instances he said. He said when it was over he was glad he didn’t have to fly his beloved into harms way anymore. He loved that airplane.
Your great grandpa is a hero. Sadly, the nation he loved is embracing fascism now. 🇺🇸🇺🇦☮🙏🏾
Even with the norden bombsight "Prescison bombing" was a MYTH !!
Precision was a relative thing, remember.
precision ? Well then the staff must have operated badly or otherwise it was intended to kill all those civilians intentionally in the city ...
In the end LeMay in Japan went low to hit target. High altitude winds meant missing target completely and utterly. They discovered the jet streams.
Interesting videos from years ago great to see people that played there part in the war 🤔 respect them all!!😎🐓🐓🇬🇧
🇦🇺🇦🇺
The decisive bomber in the battle of the Atlantic was the B24 not the B17,
Actually it was the small escort jeep carriers that really did the trick, something Admiral King advocated for from the beginning... The British ignore this fact for some ungodly reason...
I love these type of videos..
Me too. Go watch all the ww2 Combat Bulletins start at Combat Bulletin 1. and enjoy
Thanks for uploading
Great video!!!!
Great watch....👍.... Great footage...🧐💪.... I read Herbert Werner's book . The iron coffin it was a good read .. good stuff....😎👍.....
Read it when it came out in the 1970s. Made a lifelong impression on me.
And there was I wondering, how did B-17s fight against U-boats?? The question shall remain unanswered, it seems.
You clearly didn't watch the whole documentary and if you did you probably have a short attention span.
and you know that the b-17 primary role was a naval bomber?
@@LowQualityMemesHere yes it was originally designed foe that, and failed miserably.
Great collection and arrangement of War Films coupled with wonderful narration by Sir Anthony Hopkins make these two parts well worth the watch. Well Done. Thank you. Watch & Enjoy. This is a Good One to see.
The US was so unprepared when war started the USAAF formed an auxiliary called the Civil Air Patrol, essentially uniformed civilians flying small, bright yellow-painted private planes over the Atlantic to spot U-boats. The organization still exists today, doing search-and-rescue work.
also the USA commanders refused to listen to the British which means they end up making a lot of some mistake we made, this coursed unnecessary deaths of a lot of US service men
@@daniellastuart3145 Funny b/c that exact thing happened with the AEF in WW1!
General Ira Eaker 24:21 was my Grandfather's cousin and his name was pronounced AKER, just so you know. He commanded the 8th AAF.
A lot of great racehorses were named after WWll battle terms, Ack Ack, Depth Charge, Top Deck, Jet Deck, etc. Eternally grateful to our brave men and women who served to protect our freedoms.
I'm sure the racehorses were also grateful
Stretching relevance comment of the week.
There are two documentaries in this set, one on the U-boat war and the second on the 8th air force strategic bombing on the continent of Europe. The title is misleading because the B-17 was rarely used in action against U-boats but the PBY and especially the B-24 was the most successful in killing the submarines. Some 85% of U-boats destroy were by aircraft and few were lost to depth charges from surface ships, in spite of the attention that surface attacks have gotten in WW2 documentaries.
Not really. The most accurate figures are from 'The U Boat Offensive, 1914 - 1945' by V. E. Tarrant. Excluding the mass scuttling of 'Regenbogen' & 'Deadlight,' his figures are as follows :- Surface vessels : 252 Shared, Surf. Vessels & Naval Aircraft : 23 Shared, Surf. Vessels & Shore Based Aircraft : 22 Naval Aircraft : 79 Shore Based Aircraft : 303 Shared, Naval & Shore Based Aircraft : 6 Submarine Torpedo : 25 Mines : 34 Accidents : 45 Unknown : 15 Interned : 2 Wartime Scuttlings : 14 Shore Batteries :- 1 The figures are massively distorted, however, by the large number of boats sunk by shore based bombers when either in port or fleeing from German ports right at the end of the war. This number (146 between June 1944 & May 1945) accounts for almost half of the total shore based aircraft sinkings.
With the invention of the "Hedgehog" depth charge system and other technologies should have made the surface fleet more effective.
@@klugermann5806 - they DID make the surface fleet more effective, and there is plenty of evidence in the public domain to prove it.
If it was a coincidence,it would be eerie one. I've been so intrigued into Submarines combats,their routine in the vast sea and sadly their final unlucky moments that browsing all sub_, uboat_ etc. Thanks *TIMELINE*
My grandma used to see shipping wrecks, as a child, during ww2. It came to the beaches, in chunks.
Read up on the 'Richard Montgomery' for something potentially quite alarming!
Although these two very separate documentaries are both interesting, the title would suggest a single documentary about the RAF Coastal Command and their use of the B17 to locate and destroy U-Boats. Coastal Command are not mentioned in either. Those who have listed this on KZhead NEED to change the deliberately deceptive title.
Thank you for your sacrifice
'We should never let it happen again" Those enigmatic words said over and over and over and over......Then we let it happen again.
Centimeter wave radar, thanks to the British who shared their Cavity Magnetron with the US, made all the difference as it could detect a periscope and antennas, which previously long wave radar could not; furthermore, it was undetectable by the Nazi's Matox radar detector. I was under the impression these sets were mounted on Liberators?
While I enjoyed both films, the title of B-17vs the Uboat was misleading! If you are going to make these films, then use an accurate title. we dont need "clickbait"!
very interesting documentary.
Narrated by Edward Mulhare! I recognize Devon Miles voice anywhere.
Knew it as soon as i heard it too! Surprised that i had to scroll down this far to see his name mentioned.
America was unprepared because of Admiral King's antipathy towards the British, wouldn't allow convoys or basic counter measure procedures the Brits had learned.
Yeah, we had some blockheads who were more politicians than leaders.
Yes, the USA would have done much better if it had not traded away 50 destroyers and loaned 10 USCG cutters in May 1941 and Lend Leased 38 escort carriers starting late 1941. When/where was the FIRST Happy Time?
@@billietyree6139 At the expense of hundreds of merchant mariners horribly killed. RIP Respect.
amazingly my father survived three sinkings by torpedos.
@@nickdanger3802 Most of those destroyers were of world war1 vintage and were damn near no better than steaming scrappers but in a masterful/dirty move Roosevelt pulled depending on your nationality he made the UK pay exceedingly dearly for those ships.
Sunderlands, Lancasters, PBY, B24 and B17 were the long range heroes. We should not forget that very many RAF medium range bombers were taken off German Targets (as too light and vulnerable there) and put into home (and french) area ASW patrols. The carrier aircraft were also important to cover the mid-Atlantic 'gap'. And ASW doctrime was refined with work from such as the 'Western Approaches Tactical Unit' and Captain Walker's hunter groups. Radar, Ultra, RDF, night flying, and other tech all made submarines more marginal. You have to respect Herbert Warner (Iron Coffins) and the crew of both sides.
Not Lancasters. They were too valuable as strategic bombers. Wellingtons, Warwicks and to a lesser extent Halifaxes were the main British bombers used on ASW patrols.
They say , the Small Radar Units that were Developed and Fitted into the Nose of an Aircraft , was the Beginning of the End for the U-boats , Where Air Patrols could Detect the Conning Tower of the Subs when Surfaced from Miles Away and be Attacking them within Minutes , the U-boats needed to Surface to Send Radio Messages and Re-generate their Batteries , So they Couldn't get Away from That , So that's when the Air-patrols Hammered Them into Oblivion , All the Men , from both sides , Were Very Brave Men , may they RIP . . .
At 1:18 the script refers to the Atlantic as 'the black pit' , as if it's the whole of that large ocean. Very misleading because 'the black pit' was only the central part of the North Atlantic that could not be patrolled by aircraft until 1943 when longer range planes became available for this purpose.
At the end of WWI Germany surrendered 168 U-boats to Britain off the coast of Harwich, England. Most of these were scuttled though 66 were distributed to France, Italy, Japan, and the United States. Apparently another 12 were scuttled by their German crews rather than be surrendered. Germany entered WWII with 57 U-boats, but only 26 were capable of long-range operations in the Atlantic. Keep in mind that these were not all underway at any given time as some were in port for repair, resupply, training, etc. Admiral Dönitz’s emphasis was on the Type VII U-boat, a small 626-to-965-ton vessel with a relatively short range. It was designed for use in the waters off the British Isles but would be at increasing disadvantage the further out in the Atlantic it operated; it barely had the range to reach the east coast of the United States and fight there. Gaining the ports in western France helped extend the range and shortened repair and resupply turnaround. The Type IX U-boat, a larger submarine, had the range to operate along the east coast of the United States for significant periods of time, but the Germans built nearly three times as many Type VIIs as Type IXs and continued to produce Type VIIs throughout the war. Germany built 1,162 U-boats which was quite a feat given where it started and the pressure its industrial areas and ports were subjected to by Allied bombing. But building U-boats is only one part of the equation; you have to train crews and have them become seasoned as well as maintain a logistics channel. This proved more and more difficult as Allied anti-sub warfare technology kept improving. And as Axis shipping losses in the Mediterranean mounted, many U-boats were diverted to supply Rommel, a task they were ill-suited for given the large demand for fuel, spare parts, ammo, etc.
Very interesting, but why don't you break the text into paragraphs.
@@willyspinney1959 Fair enough. Done.
Wow, big difference. Thank you.
@@willyspinney1959 You're welcome. Happy Christmas.
Something similar to the PT-boat was the ideal defence against WW2 subs. If these could be carried and deployed from convoy vessels (recovered for heavy sea states), with multiple 'watches' i.e., additional crews, a 24 hour, 360 patrol perimeter would have made life very difficult for the U-boats. Armament need be no more than a .50 cal (with AP slugs) and possibly a few depth charges leads a designer towards smaller, faster, less complicated boats. BTW heavy sea states prevents U-boat activity too. This battle, tactically, was an inverted jungle that needed constant patrols of adequate ambush capacity to catch the signs of enemy presence from many directions. What we can be sure of is that such an idea is not radical, someone would have suggested it, however the navies of both nations were unable to extract it. That is the fundamental question - why? Specs: 10m (34') long, similar hull to PTs, single diesel engine, 20 knots max, cruise 12, Crew 5; pilot, navigator, radio, 2 on watch (all multi-skilled to rotate tasks) for 8 or 12 hour patrols. Kitchen for tea (of course). Fore and aft gun/observer positions. Various patrol patterns (have fun working those out).
The only problem would probably be the terrible Atlantic weather
Actually the most powerful weapon the SC's and PC's had, along with Civilian Air Patrol aircraft (surprised they didn't mention "Those damn yellow airplanes!") was the 2way Radio! (BTW some of the larger CAP airplanes actually carried an aircraft type Depth Charge or two!! But mainly it was their ability to spot U-Boats and call in armed ASW assets they helped along the US and Canadian Coastlines....)
@@timengineman2nd714 Aaah, the US coastline and the second happy time. A situation just crying out for the PT-boats. I haven't heard of even one being deployed at the time to meet the new threat. But that's another beef, the quality of senior command. War is a young man's game and the troops, sailors, and airmen need young minds to stretch out the possibilities. The older brain kept for guidance, experience, but not command. Pretty sure the ideas in the OP would have been thought of at the time (Dunkirk is an example of lateral thinking), but they never penetrated through the yellowing veil of tradition and the entitlement of rank, etc.
@@peterclark6290 Trouble is that not only did PT Boats had issues with Atlantic Swells (their length and hull form were designed for the periodicity of the average Pacific Swell along the various channels around Pacific Islands), but also had no Sonar. I'm not sure if the SC (Submarine Chaser) had Sonar, but I'm pretty sure that the PC (Patrol Craft) did. Without Sonar, you might as well not carry Depth Charges! (Unless you have air cover that can look down and hopefully spot the U-Boat and guide you to it!) However, part of their effectiveness is that they would drive the U-Boat to submerge and therefor lose track of the Convoy, plus help limit the chances of them getting off a position, direction, speed, and other vital info about the Convoy report to U-Boat high command so they can vector more U-Boats onto the Convoy. And yes, this also allows the US to vector more ASW assets onto the U-Boat and redirect any shipping away from the area that the U-Boat was spotted in!!!
@@timengineman2nd714 The ocean can be regarded as an inverted jungle where patrolling is the only way to guarantee the enemy isn't there. Hence the need for eyeballs (Mark 1, self cleaning, optically-enhanced) to take advantage of the major deficiency of the 'tunnelling' U-boats: they need to expose themselves to do their best work. (2) The Ocean state of every U-boat attack was suitable for coastal craft, which is why I mentioned 'recoverability' for those heavy states when they would struggle with fatigue and seaworthiness. Horses for courses. (3) The electronic equipment isn't vital, the offensive capacity isn't either. PT-boats used this way take away the enemy's options, their air, their safety margins. With adequate navigation skills they could patrol for miles around a convoy with just a 20mm or a .50 to discourage them from taking the initiative. (4) There are many suitable smaller designs that were cheap to make and maintain. They don't need 40+ knot speeds, torpedoes, depth charges, just room for a crew of 5 for an 8-12 hour patrol, then back to the Mother ship for the next crew. (5) If deployed they may have led the Kriegsmarine to the Snorkel sooner but that is even more visible - on the surface. (6) Without the type 21 system the U-boat is rendered ineffective from early on, Raeder would have stayed in control, the expansion program wouldn't have occurred. (7) Those admirals were still fighting the last war, as they always will, and do even today. Even Doenitz fell into that trap. He was ably assisted by the collective short-sightedness of his enemy.
Many thanks for uploading this Brilliant documentary I didn't know the U Boats where operating off the US coast or the Americans took part in the battle of the Atlantic against the U Boats, as I always believed this was just a British operation Thank you all US navy guys, also I always believed the U boats wouldn't dare get close to the American coast of fear of the US navy always learning something each day
It was a U-bout the sunk the first USN Destroyer October 1941 check it out the USS Ruben James and because the USA Admiral in 1941 did not like the British so he did not listen to us. So he become was responsible for the death of hundreds of US seamen in what the U-boat commanders call the 2nd happy time
As far as the direct offensive against the U-Boats a large part if not the largest, was carried out by the Canadians.
@@grumpycalenzana7514 yes that is the fact
‘We’ broke the German codes? That old coast guard clearly hasn’t ever heard of Bletchley Park.
at the time of the filming he probably would not of known of the work of Bletchley Park. it only been released in the last 30 years
12:52 This guy says the British broke the German machine code, as a Brit myself I'm very aware that other nations have downplayed our efforts and achievements, but not in this case.
The code was a broken by the British with help from the polish who stole an enigma machine and with the help of the British it was Smuggled out to england
From the commentaries, the B-17 did not figure in greatly in wiping out the U-boats. The comments are way more Illuminating than sitting out the video waiting for lthe U-Boat destruction discussion.
Before Jonathan Pollard (now free in Israel) we knew the exact location of and tailed every Soviet submarine at all times using SOSUS (SOund SUrveillance System).
From the title, you'd think that the B-17 was a significant sub hunter.
According to one piece on the internet the P51 Mustang turned the tide of the war in the air over Germany. Not only did it have drop tanks, they also crammed a fuel tank anywhere there was space in the plane. This piece said the P51 was the most important plane in history because it turned the tide of the air war over Germany. Bomber losses were unsustainable until the P51 came out. The British might say that the Spitfire was the most important plane in history because it saved England. It would have been much harder to win the war if Great Britain had fallen.
You fail to state the P51 Mustang was mediocre until the Merlin engine was fitted , then it became a great piece of kit
@@louispetherbridge9754 Mustangs for the RAF (P-51A) kzhead.info/sun/qNeqhsOyjKJ9dqs/bejne.html
I'm kinda disappointed, as interesting as these shows are, here I thought it was going to be 1 show about a B-17 sinking a U-boat.
Same experience, the title from this video should be adapted to it's content.
Yep
Me too. I didn't remember any B-17 vs. UBoat encounters, but I'm no big expert.
Yeah not as if that happened anyway. It was all liberators and flying boats.
@@rabbi120348 B17s were used by the RAF Coastal Command out of the Azores to locate and destroy U-Boats. The title would suggest this was to be covered, but they lied.
Long live the B-17!
My father [now deceased] was a B-17 navigator.
@@patriciafarrow9586 Rest in Peace
long live mass murderers
@@9lettere668 Yes it did boil down to mass murder, and that doesn't make it right, but facing and defeating the Axis Powers resulted in total war and a loss of everyone's humanity. Reflect on what the Allies faced: a genocidal madman and his grip on Europe, a tyrant in Russia who then changed sides to remain in power, and a xenophobic-Army-ruled Eastern aggressor.
Didn't know Tom Landry was a B-17 pilot in WWII
To
His widely known nickname in the NFL was "The Bomber Pilot".
The first year of the war was called 'the Happy time' because the U-boats never encountered any destroyers.
Dude I like watching timeline and I'm not saying that your lifting them up in anyway BUT ALL I WANT TO HERE IS HOW WE GOT THEM NOT WHAT THEY HAD. ALSO I KNOW THAT ALOT OF GERMANS WAS GOOD PEOPLE. SOME
Brilliant
been on the 505,,it was outside in 67 ..
I watched the whole thing through? What happened to the part where plains vs boat's? I know it was mentioned. And I did enjoy the video. But come on?
planes can fly over plains but u-boats can't plane over plain ocean.
@@kennmossman8701 I know your not telling me something I don't know. And strange things in life do happen. I'm just commenting on the Tittle.
@@kennmossman8701 LOL But subs have diving planes and planes can dive.????!!!!
What the producers are trying to present, is a comparison between two major strategic weapons - the U-Boat for the Germans and the B-17 for the Allies. They're judging the comparative effectiveness of each in deciding the outcome of WW2. Hence the 'B-17 vs The U-Boat' title. They're not trying to suggest that B-17s engaged in combat with U-Boats.
B-17s sunk a few of them, The B-24 sunk a lot of them.
Cliff, yes they are. It’s misleading. If they wanted to say what you said there are plenty of ways they could have said it.
@@rogerpattube Exactly it's a clickbait title
A B1 or a B52 could drop a LOT of 250 lb. depth charges. Maybe we could drop them in a pattern where they covered the most area.
@George Palmer - the B-52 only entered service 10 years after the Battle of the Atlantic was over, and the B-1 not until 1986. That's a daft as saying that if Napoleon's troops at the Battle of Waterloo had been equipped with Model 1861 Springfield rifles they could have won.
No B-17 could carry the 10-ton 'Grand Slam' nor even the 6-ton 'Tallboy" bombs. Only the Lancaster could do it!! AND the DH-98 Mosquito could carry as much as a B-17, with only 2 engines, 2 crew at twice the speed and same range as B-17!!
WOW. !
@@oceanhome2023 Regarding the bombload comparison, it is not generally incorrect, but it was used more as a Mosquito crew joke against B17. Typical B-17 loads over Germany were in the 5-6000 lb. range with some missions flown with greater loads. Disney bomb loads were 9000 lb. Often the physical size of the bombs versus bomb bay design limited the number of bombs, e.g., the capacity of 250 lb. bombs was 20, limiting the load to 5000 lbs. Most mosquito missions were flown with a maximum bomb load of 2000 lbs. Mosquitos were used for high-precision low-level daylight attacks and as pathfinders for night bombing forces. The aircraft was outstanding in these roles, but it was not suited for close formation heavy daylight bombing. The two aircraft were used in complementary roles. But even with corrected numbers is Mosquito a fantastic machine, a real wooden miracle.
@Arthur Humphreys Many of our planes might be bad hence why we are far from the leaders in aviation now but planes like the hurricane and spitfire are almost god like in our eyes because America couldn't be trusted to protect our front door and by a mixture of optimal circumstances, German failures to push their advantage and pilots flying multiple sorties only stopping for fuel, food and ammo saved our bacon before America was able to assist.
@@frankhaunter4291 The Mossie was an excellent Photo Recce aircraft and Night Fighter. Those are the roles that the RAF originally ordered it to do after they rejected it as a light bomber (The original Mossie design could only get 4 of the standard British 250lb GP bombs in it. The 500lb bombs had to be modified to get 4 of them in the bomb bay). The fighter version was what really kept the project alive in 1940.The Low level Raids get a lot of public attention because a lot of them were filmed, but none of them could be called penetrating Ruhr Valley levels of defences and during 1941 / 42 most of the Luftwaffe fighter force was employed in the Med and Eastern front. If the Germans put a fighter in the right place when a Mosquito approached it, the Mosquito didn't have the speed to escape on a lot of occasions unless it aborted the mission and ran for home. The lost rate for the bomber Mossies in 1942 was 8% and very few of those raids were deep into Germany. The Pathfinder radar bombing force was somewhat plagued with OBOE equipment failures in the first half of 1943 and the three squadron using it are totally useless at doing anything outside the range of the ground stations bar laying route marker flares for the deeper raids. The fighter bombers are of course very useful indeed but they were not invincible against a FW-190. The 4000lb bomb load capable Mosquitos didn't appear until 1944 and wasn't until they were fitted with the two stage supercharged Merlin that the Bomber Mosquitos were really capable of carrying a dangerous dustbin safely and the perfection of an dedicated H2S radar fit that allowed the aircraft to operate as a pathfinder deep into Germany which again didn't really come into service until 1944. One factor in the building of the Mossie which nobody seems to take into account is that of the five types of wood used in the construction of the aircraft, only two of them grow in the UK at the time, of which one of them is not produced in anything like the sizes and quantity required (somebody tell me where a forest of Balsa trees are located in the UK and the UK one that was in short supply was Birch). Thus most of the wood used had to be imported from North and South America and there are U-boats in the way. Of course after May 1943, not a problem but it would be interesting to know how much delay was inflicted on the Mossie program by the wood supplies being sunk. The fact that Mossie production was one in 1940, 21 in 1941, 441 in 1942, 1226 in 1943 and 2306 in 1944 suggests that delays in production were not just getting the work force and production facilities worked up. The other thing that allowed the Mossies to run riot in 1944 was the introduction of Centimetric AI radar in mid 1943 and its release for operations over Germany in mid 1944. The Luftwaffe day and night fighter forces getting a big shoeing by the USAAF escort fighters, the Germans running out of fuel due to the loss of the Romanian Oil fields and the attacks on their Synthetic Oil Industry. plus for the Mossie bombers the positioning of the OBOE, GEE and GEE-H stations on the German Boarder in late 1944.
@@jonwingfieldhill6143 German generals were almost all Hitlers yes men. They keep talking about Germany's machines yet allies were more mechanized. Germany used more horses and wagons. German soldiers were using quit a bit of meth to keep them going far beyond normal human endurance.
If a 18 year old from today started flight training would he be a B-17 pilot in 2 years? Would he be an inexperienced pilot? Chances of survival worse or better than an older pilot? I don't think it is possible for a 18 year old civilian (brand new, never flown before) to get a multi (4 radial) engine rating in 2 years (today)
Takes 18-24 months to train a BA pilot. So its certainly possible to train a B17 pilot to fly in that time frame. Experience only comes with experience.
First, get off your bed. (:
@@budgie204 My best childhood friend ended up flying 737's for a major airline. I followed his career closely. His first multi engine was a Beech 18 almost 7 years in. How the heck does an 20 year old become able to fly (and survive) a B17 in only 2 years? It must have a bit to do with specialization (meaning other crew members take over tasks that a lone commercial pilot would do.)
Two years , they learned to take off and land , by the time they flew twenty five missions they were starting to get competent
These were made when I was 19 years old I'M 54 now got any thing newer then 20 0r 35 year old films ?
@@Justin.Martyr Who is Phil? And what does, "But I am under repeat murders" mean??
There won’t be anymore. History Channel is more about ghost hunting and conspiracy theories.
Some of the B-17's that were used in the 1960' and 70's as Fire Retardant Bombers were surplus Navy airplanes .
You do know this is Devon Miles from Knight Rider right?
Or Captain.Gregg from "the Ghost and Mrs. Muir"
Well, he had to keep himself occupied after retiring from F.L.A.G.
@@garyridgeway9223 Not aware of FLAG. I just noticed he died right before Austin Powers came out. What a shame he couldnt be cast in that.
@@vitamulten1395 How can you know about Knight Rider and not know about F.L.A.G. (Foundation for Law And Government)? It was the organization Devon ran and Michael Knight worked for. 😝
I studied the history of the U-Boats and the development of sonar briefly at the US Navy Fleet ASW Training Center, San Diego. I graduated in the summer of 1977 and earned the Rate of Sonar Technician/Operator, STG Seaman Apprentice (Surface Fleet). I spent the rest of my enlistment aboard two Knox Class Frigates, the USS Brewton FF-1086, Pearl Harbor, and the USS Hewes FF-1078, Charleston. These ships were designed by the US Navy for one important task, Anti-Submarine Warfare. While aboard these Frigates (also known as Destroyer Escorts) I completed two Destroyer Squadron deployments, searching for and tracking Soviet submarines while serving our time at Sea Duty. The facts are that Russian (Soviet) subs remain a threat to this day, but now the Chinese deploy more subs than any navy on the planet. If you think the Cold War ended with the fall of the Berlin Wall in Germany, you are mistaken. Ballistic submarines can strike any target within thousands of miles of missile deployment while on station in International Waters. The threat is real and worldwide. God Bless the men and women of our Navy, who put their lives on the line in dangerous sea conditions to make our Nation and our Allies safe from harm. They have the Watch. Can I get an AMEN?
Seems like a big lie. No military serviceman would respond like you did. They'd first named the squadron or force they were on and the year, before going on an 'Einstein explanatory' like yours, about ffing naval frigates. But they probably wouldn't, they would name a few horrific details, minimize their own part bc of horrendous trauma and say the war was for nothing. You're a big liar, and way too scientific about it. Adjust your con. Amen for that.
This must have been made before the Soviet union fell apart. He talked about how great Russian submarine fleet is. Definitely wasn't published in 2020.
1 minute of ammo per gun B17?
Turkey and some history. Now that's a Thanksgiving 🦃 👍
15:37 Polish sailor (with binos)
@2:46 what does he say is 6 inches below the sand?
Don post . he meant all the oil washed up from sinking ship.
great history doc
Allies invaded neutral Iceland to prevent a Norway-style invasion by the Germans. Aerial patrols reduced the central Atlantic air gap and made rescue of sailors far more likely by sea patrols.
Tom Landry - "Kinda Exciting" Me - "Extremely Frightening"
Many years ago I read Herbert Werner’s book “Iron Coffins” a most Interesting book on the Kriegsmarine U-Boat service!
Yes, have a copy of that book to. Time for another read.
Even modern day suicide bombers likely have no more than 93% fatality rate. Many either surrender with vest undetonated or the vest malfunctioned. The U boat crews were devastating but at the cost of near certain death.
It only ended that way. Did not start out that way at all, .. until the British, backed into a very bad corner, advanced sonar into the main weapon against the U-boats. They could not escape, then. The highly developed models could, but there were just a handful at the end of the war.
The part on the wolf pack was made 35 years ago.
Both are docs from the 80s . Not the most authoritative I've seen but certainly not the worst either.
a Lot of people are talking about the Documentary dose not talk about of work of Bletchley Park, Will this look like a 1980's film so that information was not in the open at the time
It was well known in the 1980s. F.W Winterbottom's book "The ultra secret" was first published in 1974.
Hey timeline can you do the rest of the last journey of the vikings series please,i would really apreciate it 😊
No problem. Check back this Sunday!
@@TimelineChannel Great can't wait!,thank you timeline
CAPTIONS.. CAPTIONS CCAPTIONS.
Is the narrator Sir Anthony Hopkins? If not, he sure sounds like him. 🤔
No, that would be: Edward Mulhare...its in the opening credits.
I love the taff accent - Richard Burton had a great narrators voice , BTW , Edward Mulhare was an Irishman , strange that he doesn't sound like a Paddy
Whether merchant or u boat crew they must have had knackers of steel.
one of early comment ....rip heroes and martyrs of ww2
@@Justin.Martyr If you are murdered then how are you posting?
So many things wrong with the B-17 part, it isn’t worth listing them.
Nothing about B-17s hunting U-boats at all.
it 2 documentary that way 1st Wolf packs 2nd B 17
At 24:39 the Memphis Belle
Taking fire over the target
How is it used on KZhead?
Precision bombing = hit a target within 2-3 miles!
Actually, the target point was... to hit the ground.
Hmmm is it only me that thinks the narrator sounds like Anthony Hopkins?
How did early sonar differentiate a whale from a u boat?
Coast Guard Cavalry🐎 ?
The narrator sounds like Anthony Hopkins.
Strange how they forget the Enigma Machine, which gave details of all German messages sent! It was actually captured from a U-boat by the British!!
It's mentioned in the first few minutes.
Actually they received it from Poland
Thats was covered when he said British could read the u boat mail, locations .
what a mess: where had the submarines been mass produced? For sure not in france but in Germany cause a submarine needs a lot of time from building in to action. All trials had been operated in the baltic sea. And wolfpack and mass production were becoming available later in war.
they were never truly mass produced in the quantities they needed to be to keep up with the losses for every 1 sub produced 2 were damaged or destroyed.
The 300 submarines would not go in noticed and possibly counter measures would have been deployed earlier than they were!
John M. Waters sounds like Harrison Ford.
20 minutes into this vid and not a single mention of any b 17 vs U boats. You might want to consider not lying to your audience.
Is this when Admiral King won his Iron Cross?
No, it's when Pound won it for convoy PQ17.
@@nickdanger3802 As he was already suffering from the brain tumour which killed him, and probably warped his judgement, he wouldn't have had time much time to wear it. I believe he preferred the Navy Distinguished Service Medal presented to him by the United States in any case.
9:23 he's almost describing the current South China sea situation. It's coming. As China over fishes their region, they will be come increasingly aggressive until boom the match is lite
So long as the USA treats the South Chia Sea as an "American Lake", the Chinese are obliged to build its navy. We sit 600 miles off its coast with nuclear weapons and dozens of bases.
Sadly, you are probably right.
That American boasts about how many ships are sunk at the beginning of the War but a lot of that was down to Lloyds insurance having to report when a ship could sail then the Americans telling everyone that could hear them when and where so all the U boat had to do was wait in its shipping lane. Though later on when America had decided what side to join one U boat that had already torpedo a tanker had to get between it an the beach because all the people on the beach thought is was a display for them and wouldn’t move so they moved to shell the tanker not wanting to hit the crowd of on lookers
Sounds like Alec Guinness narrating.
Misleading title! Just playing two old (but good) documentaries back to back.