Objectively Superior Cartridge? (7.62x39 vs 300 Blackout)
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Great stuff! Nice to see a technical firearm video where the guy actually knows what he's talking about!
Whoah, heck of a compliment given the source.
I need to buy a Serbu firearm.
I want to buy a gun that fires 50 cal and will blow up in my face, know where I can buy one from?
@@TMHonfire102 Vulkan Arms
@@TMHonfire102 Ah, Classic TMH.
300blk is the best caliber no if ands or buts… leave all the 7.62x39 for me
Amen
😂😂😂👍
If SHTF you will build in that category. Just saying. Three calibers? 556., 762 x 39 and 45.
@@danielnixon1976 you mis-typed 9MM. you accidently typed 45
@NoblesTX I think I shot a Ken Allen AK class with you
I love how you said, “There is more 7.62 x 39 than we will ever be able to shoot.” That sounds like a challenge. 😅
The same thing was said about American forests when Europeans first settled here.
That phrase did NOT age well. AK ammo currently more expensive than 5.56 and .223
There were around 8 BILLION rounds of 762x39 & 5.45x39 in East Germany in 1990. They " dissapeared " but are still somewhere.
For me it came down to cost , excluding the reloading thing , 7.62 x 39 is half the cost of 300 black and that made up a big part of my choice to go that way .
Where do you shoot? I only have ranges to shoot at that don't allow bi metal rounds, and I cant find any "range safe" 7.62 for less than basic 300 blackout.
@@brucerm01 very rarely do I get to a range , and use it for predator control in cattle country, and even as of yesterday the 7.62 Russian was about half the cost as 300 black , and when I built my gun it was just cheaper to build at that time . That said I do like the 300 blackout but unless i decide to run a can i cant find much difference.
Why wouldn't you want the oddball cartridge that is twice as expensive and not as powerful?
@@brucerm01 it sounds like you need to find a new range.
@@slappy8941 just being silly I guess.
The ammunition you have, and can continue to source, that fires reliably in a weapon system you are trained to proficiency in to accomplish your given mission is the practically superior round, objectively speaking.
Am I the only one who noticed that 300 blackout didn't lose a point for cost?
Cost is relative, you get what you pay for.
@Faceless King Objectively "pice" is not an English word. OK, objectively show that you don't get what you pay for? I can show that in many comparable circumstances 7.62x39 is more expensive. For example subsonic 220gr loadings, cheapest x39 right now is $1.60/rd, cheapest 300blk is $0.95/rd.
@Faceless King ammoseek
@@snek9353 If by get what you pay for you mean a bunch of ammo for a far better price. Ammo that has fought in more wars and conflicts and continues to do so. Then I'll stick with the good ole 762x39. The suppressed argument is a small niche one at that. Inside 350 yards, in most uses 762x39 not only gets it done but does so with more velocity and more energy.
@@ils-84 You tell yourself whatever you need to.
From a purely cost/standardization perspective, 7.62 x 39 wins. Ballistically, .300 BLK and 7.62 x 39 are comparable. Where 300 BLK shines and is worth the higher cost is: short barrels and suppressors, fitting in a STANAG mag and simply requiring a separate upper for an AR/M4.
Unless you have a ak with a can. Then it's negligible. I'd obviously want both.
@@lungcanc3r666 - putting a can on an AK is a huge PITA, because it does not play nice with the gas system. You have to do a lot of messing around and customization to get it to function reliably. If you're putting the can on a normal AK (16" bbl), it now becomes as big as full-sized battle rifle in length.
@@RonDevito well barrel length isn't really an issue, since the same can be said about any rifle. You get a pistol ak or SBR it. It's really not that much of a pain if you get the OSS. No changing gas. I run the dead air wolverine with the KNS. Same tweaking needs to be had with an AR unless you want to eat gas to the face. For my ARs i run the bootleg carrier. While yea dropping a BCG in a AR isn't the same as changing a piston. Variety is always nice to have. Plus you could always build an AR in x39. While objectively yes 300blk is awesome. X39 is super cheap and subsonic stuff is as well. No fun in training with an intermediate round while paying .308 prices on subs. Obviously if money isn't an issue then none of the issues above would be one either.
762x39 does pretty good out of short barrels
@@SuperHeatherrussell - indeed it does, but the difference is - you need a separate rifle (SBR or pistol) when firing that round out of a Kalashnikov pattern rifle. The attraction to 300 BLK is swapping uppers, because at least for now with ARs - the lower is "the gun." Sure there are "AR/AK's" that fire 7.62 x 39 using AK mags in an AR type rifle - but those are a separate lower - that is a separate gun - from a standard AR lower. They also kind of combine the worst attributes of both types. Back to .300 BLK, the penalty with .300 BLK is that it can cost 4x or even more 7.62 x 39. If you shoot a lot, it's cheaper to get a short-barrel AK (actual SBR or pistol) and be done with it.
One more point; the 7.62x39 round is very robust and rugged, it seems to survive just fine in the worst storage conditions all over the 3rd world.
Rifles shooting the 7.62x39 round tend to be robust and rugged, but the platforms shooting 300 Blackout can be as well. Valid consideration, but this is a platform factor, and the video is limited to "objective" comparison of the cartridges themselves.
AR pattern rifles perform significantly better in mud and sand tests etc. AKs seem to consistently fail with the introduction of any dirt. Garand Thumb and InRangeTV have both done videos showing this. It's up in the air for which lasts longer without care. Probably the AK. But you shouldn't be doing that to any rifle regardless
Your point is highly subjective 🤣
Yes they are a rugged round for sure but availability and the price is absolutely ridiculous! I've gone back to shooting. 22 LR and .308 because of price and availability.
@@remainingrex9471 You truly don't have a clue.
One aspect that isn’t covered is reloading. A lot of US made 7.62x39 barrels use .308 bores making the 7.62x39 capable of shooting a much larger range of suitable bullets at a slightly higher velocity. It’s also a very easy cartridge to load for and extremely accurate in a well made rifle. The case was the parent for the PPC and Grendel cartridges. Winchester, Federal, Remington, Hornady, etc also all produce ammo for the 7.62x39 using good quality copper jacketed bullets so it doesn’t make sense to lose a point for the BiMetal jackets. My personal opinion is that if you want shoot suppressed subsonic ammo, get a 300BLK. If you want to hunt or just plink for cheap, get the 7.62x39. I will add that in the AR platform, the 300BLK uses a stronger bolt and extractor but I’ve yet to have one of mine break. The 300HAMR uses the 5.56 case and therefore the same bolt, extractor, and magazine. It has a big advantage on power so if you’re a reloader, components are very available and it might be a better choice. 7.62x39 has been my favorite for the past decade though simply because it does everything I need, every time.
I just learned that the 300 blackout uses pistol powder instead of rifle powder to make the burn time faster for shorter barreled rifles. Also, the 300 blackout variety of ammo is sub-sonic and supersonic and everything in between. I am not sure that 7.62x39 has the same variety. Lastly, I like the AR platform. I have 3 barrels: .223, .300AAC, and .458 SOCOM. I just mark my magazines with the round that is to be loaded and switch barrels as needed.
When you say barrels, I'm going to assume you mean uppers. Switching barrels on a AR isn't that hard but it isn't that easy either. Especially considering the aiming devices, etc., that need to be calibrated. Either way, they make 7.62x39 barrels and uppers for ARs.
@@mikehh8020 Yes. I was focusing on barrel caliber, but it is the upper that includes all the goodies.
Yep,and you can't get handgun powder or any primers here in Australia so reloading the 300 blackout is a no go at the moment. ADI which makes all our gunpowders have stated there will be no handgun powder or any primers available for the foreseeable future? Bye bye all calibres that require handgun powder for reloading. I bought 3000 hornady large rifle primers before the plandemic started so I'm good to go for my .308 and I can still get rifle powders .The other issue with 300 blackout is the fckn price ! And if you can even get them,everything is on backorder that is popular-5.56,223,300 blkout,300win mag,300 wsm,270,338 lapua,the list goes on. But not so with .308 or 30.06 or .22 lr,these calibres are in stock and are plentiful. In these times of ammo shortages you will have to go back to the basics,the old school calibres do the job all round wether it's just plinking with .22 or hunting with .308 or 30.06-all these 3 calibres cover all the basics so why bother flopping around like a fish out of water trying to get these fancy calibres when you can't even get them ! Might be different in America with ammo and reloading supplies but that's how it is here!
@@IDGAF56852 That sucks. At one time, we could not get 22 LR due to the IRS buying a bunch of 9MM and the ammo manufacturers had to resupply.
@@sammcbride2464 yep it sucks alright! The gunsmith/ gun dealer i get all my stuff from has said the reason why reloading supplies and ammunitions are in short supply is because the military and governments are hoarding most of it in preparation for ww3! There is 300 million rounds of assorted calibres on backorder here in Australia, our population is about 23 million,and only 30 million rounds are going to reach us peasants!
Personally I love just about all .30cal and 7.62cal cartridges I don't much discriminate when it comes to fun
here's the thing tho, 300 blackout quickly gets boring to shoot at the range because it doesn't penetrate anything. Banana ballistics channel uses 2200ftps blackout and it bounces off 1/4 steel. And blackout has limited range as the bullet starts lobbing after 300yds. 7.62x39 goes thru steel like butter LOL.
Nice presentation. I own 7.5" 12" and 16" ARs in both calibers. I have thousands of rounds in brass and steel casings for both. I don't have any line-of-site from my property which would allow me better than a potential maximum of a 200 yard shot. Given that range, the two are pretty much indistinguishable, ballistically. The cost per detonation is very different. Advantage 7.62x39. The ability to use good projectiles with multiple options is a different matter. Advantage 300BO. The only great disparity I hear is in using them subsonicly. I have 198 soft point 7.62x39 and 220 sp 300BO. There is no difference in reliability or effectiveness that I can perceive.
I always viewed the .300 Blackout as a product improved .30 carbine. The ballistics are somewhat superior but the .300 Blackout was designed to give greater collary mass to a round fired from an AR platform. I stick with 5.56 with heavier bullets and even Barnes copper bullets for a variety of reasons. The .30 Russian short was designed primarily to defeat cover. There is NO doubt in my mind that it was inspired by the 8mm kurz round.
I have used Remington Corlokt 55 grain on deer, but not over 100 yards. It works for me.
Except it wasn't, 7.62x39 was in development since 1943, which was before the first MP/STG rifles were being fielded in any amount. The rifles that came after were not influenced by the STG in any way at all, the designers had no knowledge of them prior to designing their rifles. The reason for its design was to modernize the Red army from bolt actions to submachine guns after they saw just how effective they were in the Winter War, and in the beginning of WW2 as a full powered rifle round was not needed for most engagements since they were typically 300m or less.
@@ThrashTillDeth85 8mm Kurz was finalized and fielded (in small number prototype platforms) in 1942. Development of x39 started in 1943, but it started life in '43 as the 7.62x41mm and would not be shortened until after the war (late '45/early '46, I believe). It was almost certainly inspired by the 8mm kurz, as the aforementioned was the first intermediate cartridge invented.
That's the same way I look at supersonic .300 Blackout. It's somewhere between a high-BC .30 Carbine and the 7.62x39. As for subsonic .300 Blackout, it's a super high-BC pistol caliber round that suppresses very well.
Question, "greater collary mass," that is the same thing as ballistic coefficient? I've never heard that term before.
It's like your trying to ruin my day... all jokes aside this is great information with some thoughtful insights, thank you for putting it out there!
I shot 762x35 exclusively for a solid year and I really enjoyed its versatility. I rolled my own the whole time, used everything from 110 gr to 220gr. Converted all my own cases from 556 which I have gallons of. It's a fun one that I've missed since I took it apart and built something else.
You couldn't afford an extra Aero or Palmetto lower for your other project but you can waste time on KZhead instead of working a second job? Must be about 23?
@@gsyoung54 boy you sure got it all figured out
Great video. Very nice to see the work you all are doing. Keep up the good work. Thanks.
Here's what I learned. 7.62 is pseudo rimmed for her pleasure and that Bakelites are life! A most fantastic video Sir! Bravo!
Lol good one
Another thing I love about .300AAC is that I can take my .223 brass that's lived its life and with very little effort, turn it into a .300 AAC round, literally for free. I love flexibility.
I can take my x39 brass and turn it into 22ppc, 6ppc, 220r, 6.5 grendel, 6mm arc 😉
@@livingintheLight. 6.5 Grendel and 6mm ARC have essentially the same case length, you can't use worn out 7.62x39 with split necks to load either.
@@brandonlathrop484 I blow out primer pockets before necks generally. Do you cut down your blackouts and make 9mm after you split the neck? Me either
@@livingintheLight. now do it with cheap, steel case, un primable cases...
This is the main reason why I went with 300 Blackout. I can 500 rounds of 300 blackout in a few hours with 5.56 cases.
Thank you for the education. I really learned some thing that I didn’t know.👍
The versatility of options of the 300 blackout allows for subsonic suppressed (220 grain) for home defense without going deaf and concern about over penetration. Lighter grain high velocity allows for a great hunting round at typical distances of most Americans. One weapon two different rounds and you are set. Buy a 5.56 upper and to shoot cheap rounds for practice/plinking.
You nailed it.. 7.62x39 is objectively cheaper and more available, while 300 blackout has objectively better bullet selection and more flexibility in its role.
7.62x39 is only cheaper on the low end.
@@snek9353 barnaul is high quality match ammo and it costs about $0.30 a round
@@snek9353 You were getting schooled by 7.62x39 guys in Nut n Fancy's video yesterday. Now your getting it handed to you here. Love the devotion to consistency.
@@ils-84 Ohh do tell?
@@snek9353 Nothing to tell. It's right there in black & white. Or White & black depending on your screen settings.
7.62X39 over the blackout
Wow. You really added a lot to the discussion
All day
Great and fair comparison, with one exception. The 7.62x39 is available in real copper jacketed rounds, so the argument that the bullets are steel jacketed is moot. It can be purchased either way, plus more. Thank you for taking on this comparison. I enjoyed watching.
Plus that ding on the bi-metal jackets makes the point that some of us buy reputable brass 7.62x39 for reasons beyond reloading which, btw, neither my Zastava AK or SKS beat up brass so bad it's not reloadable (my PTR32 on the other hand...). As for the comment on 7.62x39 AR mags, yeah, they're kinda silly. But so what. The pig doesn't care and I have 8 by 3 different manufacturers. Not a single failure to feed or drop out once I went to an Aero lower. Bringing the mere existence of bi-metal jacket rounds as a negative was the fall. Talking about the beating the cases take from AK/SKS rifles making them non-reloadable was the setup. Dismissively bashing 7.62x39 AR mags as unworthy of their existence was to keep the 7.62x39 inextricably linked to AK/SKS rifles. but also a cheap shot. I chuckled when he brought up both those arguments but it was obvious when he reached to bi-metal jackets as a negative that he tried to box that one in first. Still, otherwise fun. Next up, 7.62x51 NATO is objectively superior to 7.62x54r... Please!
@@411DL Had a 7.62x39 AR Pistol. Had mags by different mfgs and just couldn't run consistently regardless of what I did. Converted everything over to a KS47 receiver/BCG set and it runs like a top. Kinda harsh though.
@Think Harder Funny, my KS47 with a 7 and a 1/2 inch barrel runs like a freaking top.
@Think Harder And I have a 300 blackout AR pistol as well. Both run real well. I'm not interested in a 5.56 AR pistol because I think the short barrel loses too much. And yes, I know what dwell time is.
Yah There has been a larger selection of 7.62x39 bullets for sale recently. I have purchased three different hunting loads that shoot great.
Very informative video,like how detailed your description is.
In terms of an Intermediate Caliber... 6.5 Grendel is hands down my favorite. ...but I have a nice stockpile of 7.62x39. Maybe once I get myself a can/supressor I'll look into 300BO but for now 6.5 Grendel turns my crank and is my go-to hunting round for Mulies/Deer and even Cow Elk up here in the PNW.
9x39 build for suppressed, get a 5.45 and you got a collection
I went with 6.5 grendel and it's been a great hunting round
Unless you're going to be shooting suppressed subsonic, 300bo is a waste of money. I shoot suppressed, subsonic 7.62x39 a lot cheaper than 300 bo And grendel is the best
@@williamdux6350 yeah good luck getting 9x39 with the ammo ban
@@rodiculous9464 just make it from brass 7.62x39. During the rush I made my own.300 blackout from .223 range scrap.
W/o going the route of paying an extortion fee for a can. Any real benefit of 300 is out done by the availability and cost of x39
Platform.
Yes, .300 for can purps only...I reload and love .300 (it’s super accurate)...and 208 grain hornys are ear safe with 5.5” Thunderbeast
@@foodog3026 Not really what I was getting at. That 300 works well in the AR15 platform including standard mags, and works very well with very short barrels, gives it advantages even without a can. Something like a Sig Rattler or Maxim PDX paired with a Surefire 60rd mag is a heck of a little powerhouse in a very small package and something that 300BLK excels at over any other cartridge even without a can.
@@snek9353 oh, ok...sorry for ruining your post...
@Allen Shaughnessy They've come a long way but they still have issues. The bolt breakage issues make for a setup too unreliable to really count on. That or you have to go to a large(AR10) bolt setup like the CMMG which makes it larger. Then of course there's also no bolt hold open and rock-n-lock still sucks. 7.62x39 is a lower pressure cartridge so in very short barrels it's still going to fall behind the 300BLK. 7.62x39 lacks bullet selection, there's significant advantage to the wide selection of all copper expanding or fragmenting bullets available for 300BLK. That 60rd mag might be great, it might be junk, IDK. I do know that the surefire mags work great and are significantly shorter making for a more compact setup.
You taught me something very important today..THANK YOU SIR.
As of today, 7.62x39 has become even more relevant because the Merchant of Death is back in business! Lol
Personally I don’t really care for either cartridge. If I had to pick one I guess it would be 7.62x39 Probably because availability
What do you prefer instead of one of these rounds?
Many many others
As pointed out in this thread, 7.62x39 has been in production since the mid 1940's in numerous nations. The cost of production (i.e. setting up a factory etc) has been SUNK a long time ago. This round services the arms depots of numerous countries. It was DESIGNED to be cost effective; also the steel jackets better complement the violent long stroke piston action of the AK. I've heard brass rims can get torn off under certain conditions.
This is true to some degree. But proper gas port sizing has a lot to do with that too. It's the long-stroke piston design that is most reliable in these type rifles. This is why many AR and bullpup producers have been transitioning [back] to long-stroke piston designs. The DI system is just not a good design for most applications and no one will ever convince me otherwise. We've tweaked the M16/M4/AR enough to get it reliable enough but it still fails and lags behind most newer (and older) piston designs in trials today. The only reason it's still around is low cost and the weird sentimental attachment Americans put on it. I absolutely loathed the thing when I was with 2nd Marine Division 2005-2009. Guys can keep their carbon scraper chisels and gas rings...ugh. PASS
@@pennsyltuckyreb9800 AK guy, aren't ya?
@Il mio nome è Nessuno You know it....at least for intermediate cartridge fighting rifles. Yes, I'm an AK guy, particularly the AK-74. I like more modern, piston designed AR's as well but there's no standardization of parts. All over the place with different companies. But I don't hate the M16/M4/AR15, I just don't want to deal with it anymore.
@@pennsyltuckyreb9800 Since you seem like an expert on the subject, may I ask what you would think of an AK chambered in 6.5 Grendel? Do you think it would be a significant update? Or is it better to stick to the classic calibres?
@Il mio nome è Nessuno I'm no expert, friend. Just an experienced enthusiast. But go with whatever you shoot best is my opinion. I don't really think caliber really matters. For me, personally, something like 6.5 Grendel wouldn't be something worth putting into an AK. Just stick with common calibers, 7.62x39, 5.45, 5.56....you'll never go wrong and always have a widely available and produced caliber. They are plenty effective enough as intermediate fighting calibers. 6.5, 6.8, etc are probably more effective in an AR type platform and even then are expensive and niche calibers.
Very informational. Love it. Keep it up!
Thanks for approaching this.
It really comes down to what I'm using it for. 8.5 in 300 AAC suppressed shooting 220 grain subsonic is my go to for home defense because its MUCH more quiet and still leaves a big hole without collateral outside of that target.
My daughter graduated from RU a few years ago.... Who cares, I know. Are you local here? And if so do you have a decent place to get your firearms out? I have grown to really dislike the national forest range.
Ya .45 acp would do the exact same thing.
@@whatsmolly5741 But with much less energy and penetration
I have to say, when you’re talking about a round for military platforms, availability is ABSOLUTELY a relevant, objectively IMPORTANT data point. If you can’t get the ammo to the field, it’s literally useless. What you’ve done is like a classic physics class problem. Let’s assume no friction and no other forces outside the problem. In other words, let’s not look at this from a perspective of reality. Also, if a bullet shoots “tiny little groups, even out of a trash gun” you’re gonna have to do better than “but muh BCC’s”. Seriously, the reason there’s still not a huge availability for .300black is that it’s just not a big enough improvement to bother with.
Exactly. I have six calibers, all available in bulk, with lots of each. I keep some for barter if necessary.
No the reason its not everywhere is because it wasnt made for the most numerous rifle ever made and not a standardized military cartridge. Still not better than 300BLK
There ya go using common sense and live world realities. That is just incomprehensible to some. LOL.
The 300BLK was designed specifically for the military... So the argument that it isn't as popular due to military selection doesn't make sense, additionally a majority of countries don't use a weapon that is chambered in 7.62x39. The 7.62 is better at delivery of energy as it holds more ft/lbs of energy, however it is a less accurate round that can't be suppressed as easily. To each their own, but most people will take the performance of the 300 blk out of their AR platform without spending a large amount to convert it or buy a mutant rifle with proprietary parts.
@@Fin.mint. It's the same F!@king Bullet!! the only difference is the cartridge. Subsonic shmubsonic. It's the platform and no it was not designed for the military although it may have been used bo certain units after it's development. The only difference is the cartridge. Learn something.
Wow! Science. Big fan of ballistics as a whole. Thanks for the video. I'm 7:39 in. Now back to your previously scheduled programming...😊
I always learn something on this channel. Sometimes it hurts but better for it in the long run .
I was under the impression the 300BO was a commercialized version of the 300 Whisper.. (which i own one of the original guns) And it was designed for a very specific purpose. and excels very well at it.
It was designed at the request of SOF for superior ballistics out of a short barrel compared to 5.56 and was also designed to be better at being suppressed with subsonic bullets.
It, and the non-trademarked .300BO clone of it is a one-trick pony.
@@paulbarclay4114 I mean it's not like Socom squads have already stated many cartridges that have been tested that vastly surpass the .300blk
@@paulbarclay4114 you have 375 Socom, 375 raptor, 6.5 Grendel, and even 350 legend which all can out preform the 300 blackout in any load or barrel length. These are a few examples.
@@williamster2015 really dude....350 legend? thats gonna fail hilariously out of a 5" barrel. lights and sounds, thats it.
One of the most common style of projectile is actually “cup and core”, a cup of copper with a core of lead swaged into it. Not really the same thing as a bonded bullet, although some cup and core use mechanical bonding by crimping the jacket into the core. Some of the bonded (like the Gold Dot) are actually just super thick plated, but the copper and lead are actually chemically bonded together. I went with 7.62x40WT, it’s the “ideal” (imo) supersonic only .308” offering for the ar15. Standard 5.56 brass, actual .308” projectiles, more case capacity than blackout for fat charges of slower powder, better twist rate / freebore for accuracy with 100-150 grain pills.
I had the 762x40WT. Not a bad little niche round. IINM the newer 300 Ham'r exceeds the x40 WT's performance.
Thank you for this 🙂
Excellent explanation thanks Curtis
"objectively" is really vague too, depends on your goals and where you're starting from. Ignoring that .300 BLK is about a $1 per round at the moment it might be a real good choice to get into 7.62 if you're already invested in a 5.56 rifle and have a lot of mags and pouches. If you don't own a rifle yet 7.62x39 might be more attractive overall due to the cost of ammo, however gun costs for x39 are insane unless you go for something like a second gen bear creek x39 build, which have had a ton of improvements recently. Also when it comes to cost we might see .300 BLK become cheaper down the road, wolf was bringing steel cased .300 BLK to the market when the pandemic messed everything up. Sub sonic ammo is also pretty easy to get in both calibers. Personally I'm going to make a crack head move and try to cobble together an upper and a lower in 7.62x39 to have a sub $500 x39 AR. The new 28 rounder C-products x39 mags seem to work well for most people and they fit M4 mag pouches. Plus I've seen a lot of people shoot 2 MOA and better groups with x39 ARs, so that's probably better than what I'm capable of. Good video by the way.
Objective can't be vague. Objectivity is literally looking at the tangible facts as presented and forming a conclusion based on them. Subjectivity is the term you are looking for.
@@OddBallPerformance Working retail has rotted my brain. Yeah subjective fits what I'm explaining better. What is measured in terms of being objectively better might be hard for people to agree on so I'm not sure one caliber being objectively better is something we could all ever agree on. For example, in many cases I've noticed 123'ish grain x39 is usually faster than an comparable 120 grain .300 blk, or at least the same speed. I remember PPU brass FMJ x39 clocking in a little north of 2,400 fps, that's something I have yet to see .300 blk do at a similar weight. And yes, there are more aerodynamic bullets for the .308 bore .300 blk, it has a ton of domestic support and the legacy of .308 Win bullet development to back it up. There's no reason why companies shouldn't explore making advanced low drag bullets for x39 as well though, it has a lot of potential for precision within 400 yards if drop can accurately be estimated. With the Russian ammo import ban though both .300 blk and x39 are crippled in terms of pricing. Steel cased .300 blk might never materialize en masse and x39 has lost a massive part of it's draw. Hopefully after a year those sanctions will be lifted or we'll have a work around. In the meantime I've scraped my x39 AR plans. I suppose though one silver lining is that some people are selling the various x39 rifles for relatively cheap prices compared to previous price points. So it might be a good time to "invest" in some x39 power tools if you see a great deal, eventually they'll get cheap to feed again, and probably climb in value. I'll just be glad when things calm back down.
I did the cheap AR47 build, a BCA 2nd gen upper and a PSA lower with polished trigger. I upgraded the firing pin and it fires beautifully, I haven't measured grouping yet.
@@ashleyc2398 Hopefully x39 ammo will stay at 50¢ a round or get cheaper. I hope this ammo import ban doesn't cause AR47s to go the same way as 5.45 AR74s.
@@ds6872 I'm not saying the caliber is going to disappear. 5.45 is still available, and it's made in Ukraine, Poland, Belarus, etc, so it's not going away with the ban. However, 5.45 is as expensive or more so than 5.56, and has comparable performance but you need a special bolt and mag. There just wasn't a good reason for people to buy 5.45 ARs when a 5.56 was more cost effective overall, so the 5.45 market went back to mostly AKs only. 5.45 ARs are really hard to find and in some cases are kind of collectible now. What I'm concerned about is if .300 BLK and x39 are really close in price there's no real compelling reason to buy an x39 AR when you could spend the same on a .300 BLK AR and use common 5.56 bolts and mags. If that happens eventually x39 ARs will be one of those firearms oddities more for collecting than shooting. x39 will still be #1 in AK circles because that makes a lot more sense to keep using as .300 BLK would be the same price but would create a ton of compatibility issues with the AK platform.
Both are equally good cartridges in their own way, but were designed for different purposes. 300 Blackout is better suited for suppression and the AR platform.
300blk was developed specifically with an AR-15 in mind and specifically to use existing AR-15 magazines. Both rounds can be built for suppression. Both cases can be stuffed with a heavy-ass bullet and reduced powder charge to both propel the bullet at high subsonic speed but also to cycle the rifle. At least the suppressor should be selected correctly for the job, or else it won't trap enough gas at sufficient pressure to operate the weapon. It's easier to do that with an AR as it uses lighter bolt carrier, but that's a rifle thing, not caliber or the round thing.
Well done! I do like BOTH. Unfortunately I only have a “stockpile” of the STEEL stuff..X 39 that is. Edited to add: It’s imperative that we mention ONLY ONE was designed to be suppressed though. THAT’S WHERE the 300 BLK shines the brightest..
Well that was explained pretty nicely. I will now subscribe.
I absolutely LOVE my 300 Blackout AR pistol! Im also very glad I stockpiled some 300blk ammo a few years ago, that stuff is expensive today! Honestly people who crap on the 300 blackout only do so because they dont have experience with it (more than just a day or few times shooting it) or because of how much the ammo is (now). For CQB I dont think anything come close to 300blk. Id put my 300bk pistol up against just about anything. In all seriousness though, it's about having fun and being SAFE with what you own. For home defense / SHTF go with what you shoot best with and GET TRAINED with it. Go get get some good First Aid training too! Great video and info BTW, you do an excellent job VSO Gun Channel!!!
Interchangeability with AR platform weapons and bullet weight range sold me on 300BO (and yes, I also own an AK) J/S
Yup, that's what sold me on 300 bo
So is the 7.62
Thank you learned a lot.
Super informative. Awesome 👌
Since developing my own 350 legend sub load with a 245 grain flat point I’ve grown quite fond of the caliber. My ar will run anything from 115 grain supers to 245 grain subs accurately
What style upper? Barrel twist and length plz! Looking at building a hunting setup in 350Legend
But why? Hunting? I don't see the point of that cartridge other then hunting in some states that require straight wall cartridges.
I love My 350 Legend I have a butt load of ammo for it and can still find local gun shop and even in Wal-Mart! I have a Ruger mini 30 also with a wooden stock so it’s not nearly as evil looking as my AR!
@@jonathank7394 straight wall catridges can be reloaded for a LOOOOONG time vs necked cartridges.
The price definitely has a factor, when 2 rounds are ballistically identical price and availability will then factor into the equation. When choosing between 300 blackout and 7.62x39 I choose ak round all day long because why pay more for a round that is practically the same. If you plan on an upper swap on an ar you have to factor in will the price of the upper be factored in vs price of say an ak and how many rounds will you shoot and if it will pay off.
I have a 8.5" SBR in 300BO. I have a Dillon XL650 with the RL1500, so I'm producing 300BO cases from .223 and 5.56 with every pull of the handle. My cost for reloading when I buy components in bulk is about 22 cents a round.I do lot of subsonic loads and it is whisper quiet with my suppressor installed, a great gun to shoot and I'm reloading myself for a fraction of the cost.
Very informative. Thanks
You can't properly compare these without considering what they were designed for. The 7.62x39 was designed to be mass produced for volume fire at close ranges and accurate (enough) fire up to 300 meters. It was designed to equip the Soviet army as a front line combat weapon. The .300 Blackout was designed for achieving ballistics similar to the 7.62x39 in the M4 carbine. The .300 Blackout is a 30 caliber round designed to work in AR platforms because the 7.62x39 and AR's don't really play nice together. The .300 Blackout is superior for that application. The 7.62x39 is superior in the application it was designed for. Use the tool that best fits your requirements.
Your the only one that gets it! Bravo sir bravo👏
300 blackout is known to have better ballistics past 200 yards
The whole point of the video is an OBJECTIVE comparison. The circumstance of "purpose" happens to be quite SUBJECTIVE.
@@benbolduc7534 Purpose always exists behind design. If not, it's just mindless abstraction.
The cmmg has mastered the ar platform for 7.62x39. I have one. It’s extremely accurate and have never had a jam or other malfunction in 4 thousand rounds. Just saying......
Great video and great information... I don't care based on price and availability I will take a X39 every time.. The couple of perks the 300 offers just aren't worth it to me or most.
Thanks the outstanding presentation of facts. Loved the process you went through! Food for thought. While you arrived at a logical conclusion based on an Objective Analysis the last point is a significant data point. Scarcity and high cost of material is a HUGE detriment. What you negated to take into account is that not all data points had equal value.
Agreed, however according to the interwebs, Russian ammo will be disappearing soon, so 300 BLK will be less scarce? lol
@@NoBody-jm3qt Too funny!
I do like the economics and projectile engineering class. I do. I appreciate learning about that. I'd also like a follow up video of a 7.62x39 vs a 300 blackout on the range with multiple test subjects opinions. Different gas strokes for different folks...
I wanna start off by saying I am a neophyte on this subject. What I’ve heard and I believe to be true is if you want an every day shooter and you’re going to buy your ammunition to go with the 7.62 x 39. It’s cheaper. If you’re going to reload your ammunition go with the AAC 300 blackout. A word of advice if you’re going 7.62 x 39 buy an enhanced firing pin. The Russian primers on the steel cases are of a harder material. The enhanced firing pin protrudes farther from the bolt face than a mil spec firing pin. I’m still testing but I’m getting to where I could trust my life to it
@@williamdux6350 Thank you for the advice. I’m not saying that it’s the first thing I would grab I was just expressing confidence in its reliability.
@@williamdux6350 nah fuck all that if it doesn't eat steel it doesn't deserve brass.
Or just buy and use an AK?
@@williamdux6350 I have never had a malfunction with steel cased ammo in .223 in ARs or 7.62x39 in AKs. I have had malfunctions directly caused by brass cased ammo in .223. I would not call all steel cased ammo "junk". Every steel cased round loaded at Barnaul that I have chronographed has had excellent standard deviations and has been as accurate or more so than bulk packaged brass cased ammo.
@@williamdux6350 I have had an issue with Underwood with a bad manufactured round that passed QC. I talked to Kevin about it. It was a squib load with a crack in the side of the brass case. However, never had a single issue with steel cased ammo.
The appeal to 300BLK for me is the subsonic option. Sure, a heavier, slower projectile will not travel as far, but for CQ operations, the 300BLK does the job.
A suppressed 300 BLKOUT rifle can really be thought of as "an improved MP5SD"
You just picked up a new subscription... Great video!
Overall a great presentation. A couple of points on nomenclature though. Technically, the "pseudo" rim is called (or used to be called) semi rimmed. The Russian 7.62x54R cartridge has a taper from the bottom to the top of the rim if you look at the ctg. standing on its base. That prevents rim lock. The .303 doesn't have that but I never had problems with either one when I owned them. Again, you made a great presentation.
Just like the 9mm the 7.62x39 has proven itself for years. 👍🏾
Yeah I'm just getting into reloading and being able to go from a 110gr .30 caliber bullet that shoots at 2200 to a 220gr bullet that runs at 1050 is amazing. The selection of bullets for 300 blackout is insane.
Same bullet selection as every other 30 caliber
I do the same with 7.62x39........ the 300blk is easier to get the extreme pills to cycle autoloader, though. 300blk lovers (and I do love the cartridge!) are famous for saying it is better than the x39 for something the x39 also does. ....... lol. Both are GREAT for their intended purposes. Neither is best for the other's intended purposes!
You can’t find any right now though
@@200130769 Except x39
Once again it's the same freaking bullet!!!! As a matter of fact X39 can shoot any 300BO bullet but a 300BO can't shoot any X39 bullet so you got it backwards there Skippy
Thanks for explaining rimfire cartridges to us.
Thank you for your time and info I’ll stick with my FAL
I know one thing, all the other particulars aside, I can walk into my local gun shop and buy as much 7.62 x 39 as I wish. I haven't seen a box of .300 Blackout on a shelf anywhere in 6 months. I'm paying $8 for 20 rounds of Wolf or Tula. I've never seen .300 Blackout that cheap even before the ammo crisis brought on by the the plandemic or the fallout & riots following the death of Saint Floyd of Fentanyl which spurred on the ammo crisis we're seeing now.
You said it best.
That's because you should be buying online boomer... You can find 300blk in steel case. Stop it.
@@TheTyrial86 eww imagine shooting steel .300blk
@@TheTyrial86 Buying online seems cheap & good until you add on the shipping fees....
If you reload though 300 BO is cheaper to reload....easy to get 223 brass.
pseudo science is always interesting . But if you compare apples with apples the 7.62 x39 is 200FPS faster for any given weight of projectile or if you like 15 grains heavier at any given speed and for us civilians that's all we need to know . The difference doesn't sound like a lot but as you get down in power its important. As far as a military cartridge the 7.62 was replaced by the Russians and the 300blk will never have a large military uptake. The 300blk is a reincarnation of the 30 carbine . If you are shooting tin cans of the back fence it probably doesn't mater but I've used both for hunting and the difference is real , their are times when I really wanted to chuck the 300 into the swamp.
Nice. This is real information someone who has actually used it for hunting. Real world experience. Not a guy on the range in perfect conditions shooting paper.
7.62x39 is still used by Russian alpha groups out of shorter barrels for raiding buildings, because it doesn't lose much velocity at all out of short barrels , also Russia just made.the new ak15. European nations still use it , finland being one of them, no country has adopted 300 blk but many use 7.62x39 . it isn't going anywhere
But, will those bullets have the same construction as .300 AAC? 7.62x39 doesn't use a perfect .308 projectile. But the difference between 7.62x39 and .300 AAC is comparable to the difference between a .308 and a .30-'06. Which is a decent amount in my opinion. For hunting, I think the 7.62x39 knocks on the door of a .30-30. For hunting, suppression, more bullet selection, use of AR platforms, the .300 is the better pick. I like both though.
Well said and spot on!
I mean, if the 300 BLK didn't take it down you must've been shooting him wrong. Many videos of people taking large deer and boar with supers. I used a steel case 147 Gr hollow point on a beautiful 8 pointer last year. 1 shot, made it 40 yards. Hate to be "that guy" however. Happy Hunting.
Interesting analysis. Thanks
Fact: I love 7.62x39. Data: I have an American made AK-103. Check and Mate. Your move Forest.
It's the 30-06 vs 308 debate all over again except the shorter case can be more useful with the larger range of projectile weights.
False. Short action and long action; while 308 has similar ballistic, objectively, 30-06 has better ballistics.
It's not that much better. If they get charted out together they are all in the same spot.
@@thomashalley7258 not exactly 30 06 can do 2950with 165grn ammo. 308 2550fps. Not the same. At All
@@justinlance4174 so 400 fps difference is your reasoning why they arent the same at all?
I dont see how the shorter brass length makes it more useful for the wide variety of bullet weight. If anything the opposite is true
I would venture to say that for the velocity and range at which both of these cartridges are typically used, Ballistic Coefficient is a moot point.
"typically used" yes, but for the atypical it absolutely matters.
In that general 0-300 meter 'point and click" range, sure.
Good info, thanks!
I think 5.56, 7.62, and .300 blk are all wonderful intermediate cartridges, and have their place
Except you could argue 5.56 lacks stopping power compared to 7.62x39. I would label it as a beginner cartridge.
With the same weight bullet 7.62x39 has a slight velocity advantage. This matters more than with most cartridges since we are already starting slow. The entire appeal of 300 BLK is that it can be shot (suppressed) in the AR platform. I know you did not get into comparing platforms, but the AK platform is patently obviously more robust and reliable than the AR platform. I think the development of 300 BLK was a tacit admission that 7.62x39 is superior to 5.56 within their effective ranges 400 yards-ish.
My PWS MK116 mod2 in 7.62x39 has never had an issue. Accurate and reliable (even with steel), good ergos. Great ballistics. Cheap to shoot. No complaints here.
The only reason I prefer Brass to Steal is reloading. I have had guns for 30 years shooting both steal and brass through them. No issues. I check my barrels and loading ramps often and see ware from both steal and brass. Great Video., love your stick your thumb in it shirt in the SDI info! #KentuckyBallistics, #DemolitionRanch and #BrandonHerrera got me here to your channel. Props for wearing others merch!
Why a minus for the 7.62 bullet on the content of projectiles. You've said it yourself that the steel jacket is covered with copper, so no metal on metal contact is provided?
How long ya think that copper lasts going down the barrel?
@@snek9353 Long enough for wear to not be an issue on the barrel from steel contact. It's why the copper is there.
@@dashikashi4734 Are you sure?
@@snek9353 Yes. Ever recovered and examined one? The copper remains intact.
@@snek9353 Most rifling depths are around .005(+/-.001), while copper plating on most steel case from the various ammo plants are between .008-.010 The steel jacket never meets the rifling.
Riveting and VERY well delivered presentation. Blackout wins. Ruger Ranch makes a honey of a bolt gun. Liberty Animal 96 grain bullets are going hunting with it, with me.
Ive seen some bringing up the 6.5 grendel ( which I have and love ) but I think the Wilson Combat 300 hamr would be another good one to consider in the comparison .
Thanks, I learned a lot! Still can’t make up my mind. Probably will get both!
300blk subsonic is closer to 9x39mm. While 300blk supersonic is closer to 7.62x39mm. Personally, I say "buy them all". Best chance to cover all criteria.
I'd say 9x39 is better, considering that both are subsonic the 9mm is a bigger bullet with the same velocity so it throws more energy downrange. 9x39 bullets have very high sectional density and also have tungsten penetrators that are extremely sharp (they'll cut your skin) so they don't just stop dead in their tracks they will actually punch through barriers and nij level 3 body armor. This is with modern rounds. Older soviet era loads have slightly less velocity but still make up for it over subsonic .300 as they have steel cores and higher density vs the softer lead core of .300.
@@TurgzUhm what, well yes but actually no. Yes by the fact of 9x39 being able to have a heavier bullet it'll put more energy down range. But that's the extent of the yes in this comment. No, that's not what sectional density is, due to the larger caliber 9x39 has less sectional density. Just where in the US do I buy 9x39 with tungsten penetrators. That the Russians once made such a thing is moot here in the US. BTW there's plenty of .308 bullets currently being made in the US with better/similar construction. Steel is LESS dense than lead.
@@snek9353 That would be very true on the 9x39mm bullet choices in the US. The only real commercial offerings for 9x39mm are lead and bi-metal jacket variants. None of them have core design and hardness like the original Russian designs.
@@snek9353 Caliber itself has nothing to do with sectional density. SD is defined as a bullet's mass divided by it's cross sectional area (CSA is an area whereas diameter is a linear measurement). In other words, the longer and heavier the bullet the higher it's SD. The higher the SD the more it will retain momentum both in the air and in a target, which means it better retains both energy and BC downrange. The 9x39 bullet is long and heavy, so it actually has high SD. It retains it's energy and bc better downrange than .300 does no matter what load is used. You imply it doesn't go through barriers and armor, which is false for the reasons i mentioned. It goes through barriers and armor. considering it's subsonic and has the edge over .300 in this regard. As for buying the tungsten tips, you won't be buying anything indictive of what the military round should be anyway, you'll only be buying a watered down FMJ hunting bullet. We are comparing the rounds as they are, not what's available to buy in one country at this moment in time. Otherwise we would be judging all these rounds relative to the firearms that use them which will skewer the results of the ammo itself. "Steel is less dense than lead" What has this got to do with anything? Sectional density in context of a bullet is again mass divided by CSA whereas density by itself is mass divided by volume. Calculating SD will give a different answer to calculating the density of the same object. It makes no difference if lead is more dense than steel as the 9x39 bullet is still heavier than .300.
@@BuffRANGE That's true, but we are comparing the ammo as they are not by what's available to buy in one country at this moment in time.
Great video. For hog hunting, a lot of guys prefer 7.62X39 just because it is about 1/4 the price.
Refreshing I’ll just leave it at that!! Got my sub!
Nice job! Subscription earned!!
7.62 x 39 has superior muzzle energy and range. That's pretty much all that matters. IMO.
Ah good sir.. you forget price. The almighty dollar is a deciding factor and makes it all the sweeter.
@@randomidiot8142 That too.
x39 drops like a rock at 300.
Don't worry about the steel in the 7.62x39 jacket. Its an incredibly soft mild steel that in no way affects barrel life. It is used to conserve copper while retaining mas.
It's not so good for reloading
@@SuicydeByCitizen He's talking about the bullets, not the cases. Not too many people trying to reload fired bullets. The bigger issue isn't the steel case, but rather the fact that most surplus steel case uses Berdan primers, not Boxer. If there were a market for it, you'd see tool and die makers releasing tools and dies made to reload steel. It's just too much of a PITA to reload Berdan primed cases for most people.
Awesome very clear cut
Thank you. Great discussion. Cost does not matter with regards to which one is the superior cartridge.
300 blk is great. So is 7.62x39. Pick them up and shoot. It’s not better if it’s just sitting in the box collecting dust.
Great class, professor
That was… an objectively solid comparison!
Well at this point they're close enough to the same price to say screw it. 🤷♂️ Thanks sleepy Joe...
They're so close and when you figure cost and availability 7.62x39 is the way to go.
I'm loving the comments. I've got a 300 blk and I love it. My friend has an ak and it's awesome.
Going back to the case of the 7.62X39. I tried reloading them for my brother in his SKS and I found that from the shoulder to the end of the neck there is a slight taper. Bottom line is that the bullet seems to seat with the end of the neck holding the bullet in place. I did like that design especially in an auto loader.
I actually think 300 blackout is the better cartridge. But 7.62x39 has better prices.
Only for the cheap stuff, and only for now.
@@snek9353 Barnaul is match grade and goes for $0.30 a round.
@@ils-84 Match grade, lol.
@@snek9353 Yes. 123 grain boat-tailed with a .294 G1 BC. Clocks in around 2404* out of a standard AK. At 400 yards it's just above the 1400's* range. * (correct info)
Magazine length doesn't impact how many you can carry; they both sit at about the same depth. You can hold three mags single stacked on your carrier with either one. Objectively speaking.
Yeah, I would have argued weight in relation to magazines made of comparable materials. There will probably not be a time where I am stacking magazines vertically on top of each other when I am carrying them. But it is hard to argue against the fact that if you took a polymer AKM magazine and a polymer AR magazine that the the AKM magazine would be heavier, if only slightly, due to its size which of course means the amount of plastic required to make it, and additional functional components like the spring being heavier. Now for like long term storage of magazines, space could be the argument, but not on body carry.
oh damn you got an occam, good video man!
I bought my 7.62x39 before 300Black came out. 7.62x39 was originally designed for 174 grain bullets 300 for 220. So 300 is better for subsonic.
YES
What about the inherent value of spent brass and reloadability? Spent steel… worthless
Worthless? what is scrap price going for per ton. LOL
You can reload steel cases.
Reloading is a substantial investment and steel is good if you only shoot occasionally.
@@victoriazero8869 And yet for the vast majority who shoot a lot, shooting steel was the way to go.
@@ils-84 its a pain in the ass.
Yeah 0-300 is 762. Price is so beyond ridiculous its 762. Sorry, 300b0 is as suitable and great as a 5.7. Another NICHE round. Nothing more.
@The Manager Well at least he knows it.
Is that why 300blackout has become a popular deer round? Is that why 300blackout is effective out to 460yrds? (440yrd on a 10.5 barrel) is that why 300blackout is a far more versatile round with MANY super and subsonic loadings? the only thing x39 has in its favor is price
@@JJsGA Hello, I know a 300 blk. Will shoot 4oo+ yards, so will the 7.62x39 and both are effective enough. I think you would be better off at those distances using .308 or something else with a little more umph. Both the 7.62x39 and the blk out were both developed as battle rifles and not long range shooters.
@@bkb5668 oh of course my guy. But let's take into account most engagements are between 75 to 150yrds and I won't shoot a deer past 200yrds (I'm sighted at 100) it's more then plenty inside that. Now if I was doing a long range build sure a .308 or better!
@@JJsGA I'm curious how you came up with such specific effective ranges?