Post Office Scandal: what did top executive know?
2024 ж. 16 Сәу.
191 143 Рет қаралды
She's been described as the Post Office executive who knew more about the Horizon IT scandal than anybody else. (Subscribe: bit.ly/C4_News_Subscribe)
Angela van den Bogerd personally oversaw complaints about Horizon problems since 2010 and was part of a mediation scheme that was supposed to get to the bottom of why so many subpostmasters were being accused of theft.
But she defended the Post Office until the bitter end, even as late as 2019, during the High Court class action which Alan Bates and his group of fellow postmasters won.
-----------------------
Follow us:
Facebook - / channel4news
Twitter - / channel4news
TikTok - / c4news
Instagram - / channel4news
She is one vile lying individual.She needs jail time.
And ALL bonuses,and pension payments returned as her work was NOT done to the Standard of the Post Office prior to 1999!
For sure !but we know that we’ll never happen !
Thank for that because I can’t write here what I would like to say !👿👿👿👿👿👿👿👿👿
There is no chance these scumbag will get jail.they have the money to avoid jail.british justice can be curcimventef if you are rich
100% agree 👍
Surely there must now be criminal prosecutions of Post Office executives?
Would have happened already.. it's being dragged out so they can figure out an escape clause. Gov are culpable too so they have to protect each other. If senior management go down, they'll try and take politicians with them. Nothing will happen. It's fukt.
UK only prosecute normal people 😂
bet they all get away scott free.
@@eddjordan2399agree - none of them will suffer more than minor inconvenience.
There’s a fraud investigation, but that’s only about what happened to the money sub-pms we’re forced to pay.
Jail her in contempt with a huge fine
15 years and £10m
Angela van den Bogerd should spend the rest of her life in prison.
She was personally involved in 150 cases and she got everyone WRONG, jail her for LIFE.
complain to police, who stops you
given her a performence bonus from the proceeds of the crime .i did not know .
When are these senior post office executives going to prison?
They probably won’t. How many politicians go to prison and they have done some of the most terrible things. There is a level some people in the country find themselves and they remain untouchable there
She needs to reflect upon her lies at His Majesty's Pleasure
Watching the senior people lying in the enquiry for the past few days- the disclosure lead actually claimed he didn’t know his own job title- they 5:50 don’t know, they didn’t read the report, they don’t remember, the don’t know who they reported to, they don’t know who’s job it was…with hindsight…they were insistent that the sub postmasters be ‘held accountable’ and they wanted to take away their pensions. Now for these lies, they should be charged, and when found guilty, jailed and their inflated pensions and bonuses clawed back from them.
Something called the ''Proceeds of Crime Act'' can be used for that.
@@24321619 I hope so- justice needs to be done, some of these liars earned millions of pounds in salaries, huge bonuses, and massive pensions. Let them make up the losses the Post Office, and therefore the tax payer will suffer for their negligence, incompetence and dishonesty. Rant over, but I’ve been watching the enquiry and I’m furious!
The lies they are spewing on camera 😂 .absolute vermin when I broke the law I went to prison .......let's see what happens to these (I already know)
It's amazing how they get these high level roles yet all have a memory like a sieve. Bunch of sociopaths.
These all involved should all give back bonuses and go to prison everyone of them
I was personally involved in 150 cases. A judge should be personally involved in sending her to jail for a few decades.
These POEPLE should face jail for what they have done said and hiden
Jail maybe, bankruptcy definitely
Both would serve them right,taste of their own medicine.
Never happen ,two tier justice ⚖️ system in England always.
Why didn’t the judge have her arrested at the time for perjury, WHY are all this people getting away without any justice. They ruined people’s lives, some SPO masters /mistresses even died. Where is the justice!!
British judicial system....the envy of the world🤭
It gives them time to shift their money somewhere else so that they never pay the full fines and compensation. I bet all of their earnings have already been given away to their children, so will be impossible to get back.
The judge did refer 2 witnesses to the police for perjury at the time. I suspect that in this devil woman's case, he'd (quite correctly) formed the opinion that she was lying, but didn't think there was evidence to support it. There's certainly evidence now though!
@@dandare1001proceeds of crime can follow the money to relatives. I'd take all her money.
She’s going to get absolutely ruined at the enquiry next week!
I can't wait..!!
More excited for that than the premier league run in!
She needs to be it financially too.
She absolutely deserves to be. What a vile individual.
But she is part of the establishment so of course they will go easy on her. Just wait and see.
We already have the truth. The only statements we need to hear from these executives should be spoken in a court of law at their own trials
Hear Hear
Whatever they say at this inquiry can be used in any future prosecution.
AND the MP's and Cabinet members and the Ministers who KNEW what was going on LONG AGO and yet REFUSED to take responsibility and thus accountability ON THEIR WATCH. It's starting to annoy me all these delays and 'stages' this inquiry is insisting on when they could be recommending prosecutions begin in earnest BEFORE it winds up.
If there is any justice, she must be jailed. Perverting the course of justice carries a maximum sentence of 7 years
And they perverted the course of justice from at very least 2015 which is 9 years. So each time they were called to explain and hey blamed the Sub Postmasters that was once.
Justice is only for the poor. The establishment protects the wealthy.
These executives now need to explain themselves under oath in court in their own trials. I am sick of public money being wasted listening to their amnesia. We have heard enough. Ordinary people are very angry and rightly so.
Why is she not in prison?
She new all along the computers had a problem. She should be sent to prison . Bogen hopefully will spend her last days in there .after treating postmaster like common robbers. What a horrible lady .
the poor guy at the end is evidence these people need jail time
Perhaps a small distinction, but that is NO ''lady''.
Also, many people are always saying that if the world was ruled by women it would be a better place. But the few women in power have certainly proven otherwise. The world governed by women will be horrible.
What a vile individual.
Keep up the great reporting on this obscene scandal Channel 4.
Seems that perjury isn’t a crime if you’re a post office MD/CEO or whatever
She must be a flight risk….needs to have her passport taken and be arrested ASAP
Do the police not watch the news? Arrest her!
They are waiting until the end of the public enquiry as it would have to be stopped if they intervened
Too busy following orders from above 😉😉 to investigate Angela Raynor
We as a Country ought to be shouting justice from the rooftops until justice is done.
The two women at the center of the scandal fail to accept any form of accountability for their faults. How shocking.
So the judge basically called her a liar in a court and was not able to do anything about it? The only forms of justice should be the postmasters getting compensation and these liars put in jail for a long time. A suspended sentence isn’t going to cut it.
The Judge could have reported her for investigation by the Police for Perverting the course of justice.
Two days have been allocated for her to appear before the inquiry on April 25th & 26th. She is also the person who made a woman sign a non-disclosure agreement before the PO would pay her any compensation after her husband had killed himself by walking in front of a bus.
Think she will be sick and not attend
@@MRJERRYCURTIN then find where she lives and trash her house! vile woman! whos house was paid for by the tax payer and those who she ruined and killed when she was at the job!
@@MRJERRYCURTINIn that case, a subpoena is likely.
@@ilokivi She already has one, I think.
isn't that a disgrace? scraping the bottom of human depravity and such obvious morally bankrupt behaviour. their consciences are dead, that poor woman who signed the NDA.
Alan Bates is the only truthful person at enquiry so far
No, Arbuthnot was truthful as well, the day after Alan bates
There have also been witness statements made by some of the SPMs, they're also telling us the truth.
the poor poor fella with the support dog at the end... what these thugs in suits have done.
Angela was right, money doesn't go nowhere. It goes from postmasters to executives.
Yes,those executives should be forced to repay all the money they robbed back to their victims,plus compensation on top commesurate with addressing the losses their actions caused to those people.
I've been watching the PBS documentary reenactment about this scandal. So many people wrongly accused, so many people's lives ruined.
it seems we know more of what took place than the criminals in charge of running this .
It may be on PBS but it was not made by PBS
900 and possibly more bub.
There should be a focus on questioning the Fujitsu IT workers in Bracknell who were making the remote adjustments to the sub postmasters accounts and who instructed them to do it and why.
They can't remember. They don't recall. They have no memory of that. They can't remember exactly what their job was back then. They don't recall who they reported to. To be honest, I think I would now have a short memory if I had been a Fujitsu employee back then. Unrelated to this scandal, but pertaining to a prominent UK Government contractor, from 1982 to 1990 approximately 25 scientists and engineers who were working for Marconi or its associated companies died under mysterious or unexplained circumstances. In a 6 month period alone, in 1987, six scientists died in separate, unusual incidents (including several utterly bizarre and gruesome suicides / accidents). The official investigations largely concluded these deaths as suicides or accidents. I am not suggesting a conspiracy; I am presenting facts as reported by the Associated Press and other reputable organisations. Search for 'Marconi deaths inquiry' and "Marconi Mystery' (the latter is what the press dubbed it). You can also search for a specific article entitled 'The Baffling Case of the Dead Scientists' (AFR); there had been 22 such deaths at the time that article was written in 1988, and Marconi were being investigated following allegations of massive fraud.
Yep, they wouldn't have just did it, without being asked to, and the only ones that would have instructed Fujitsu to do this would have been POL. Working in in Legal, most companies do what their customer (POL) want and Fujitsu probably never thought that POL would be up to no good.
More than a culture of denial. There is a culture of deceit, and ignorance.
Look more an organised crime ring to me.
GIVE HIM HIS MONEY BACK !!!
Plus interest, plus compensation.
why aren't these people getting compensation. it's not acceptable till she is taken to court and a sentence is given. why can't she be prosecuted then?
The lawyers the post office use to redress the wrongs make sure they get paid 1st. Slowing everything down and ensuring they themselves receive 2x the compensation offered to victims. The lawyers are ripping off the government.
She is part of the elite that's why she won't be jailed.the police and prosecutors are villians too for not prosecuting them.if I defrauded a grand from the dss I would be lobbed in jail
Oh the compensation issue is a nonsense in itself ! Only certain former PostMasters can APPLY. Length of service is an issue; those who were sent to JAIL have a claim that is worth MORE than those who weren't, but the government is reserving the RIGHT to determine how much THAT should be worth by comparison.....And what of those who have DIED or took their OWN lives ? How do you even BEGIN to calculate their claim ???
@@johnrowland3105 well need to get a solicitors involved a go find me even, and sue the post office and the data company and lobby the government. each case should be on its merit but anybody affected should get some compensation. well of course you can't bring back the dead but you can compensate the familys of the people who have committed suicide. because of the post office action and the data company have to pay up! why should they be let off for?? from prosecution, no there's no reason why they shouldn't be prosecuted. or even involve king Charles I think he should be bought into this he should step in.
The purpose of large compensation cases is to pay out large amounts in legal fees, so it's going to take a decade or two to sort out...
Prison is the only acceptable punishment for the Post Office management. Also fine them every penny that should be paid immediately to the Postmasters. But in the UK the wheels turn disgustingly slow. Witness the infected blood scandal. And just wait until it all comes out, as it will, concerning the latest scandal. See the latest videos from Doc Campbell and Prof Dalgleish. Hold on for a very bumpy ride.
HMRC and the DWP are not slow....
When a judge says "she sought to mislead me", he seems to be saying that she perverted the course of justice. From what I can see on the Sentencing Council's guidelines, where culpability is proven and the harm is severe, it's a custodial sentence of two to seven years.
Not if you are a White Woman, it is the fault of her father, brother, ex lover, any man we can find but never a woman's fault.
This is beyond hubris into serious mental illness prevailing amongst senior executives. Self-deception on this scale is deeply disturbing.
"Done a bit better" Shocking attitude.
Hopefully she goes to prison
When the poor man couldn't answer BECAUSE HE WAS CATATONIC the police took that as a "yes". Unbelievable!!!
how are they still w alking the streets
When i questioned my losses for the previous 5 years in 2012 this woman told me o that kind of amount is to be expected and the losses continued until i managed off load my branch to a local supermarket
When is she being dragged in to the public enquiry? They will rip her apart
Getting my popcorn ready 🍿
When you listen to the stories of those who have suffered, it is nothing short of heart breaking. If Sunak believes that this inquiry will satisfy the British public in our desire for justice he could not be more wrong. There is now complete contempt for all those liars appearing day after day. It really needs the police to be involved and for prosecutions to result in SUBSTANTIAL jail time.
She and others need to go to prison for a very very long time
Confiscate all bonuses. They were not deserved. If the money is "spent" then have them sue for bankruptcy, like poor Lee Castleton had to. It's time to stop protecting the rich at the expense of the poor.
My question still is: for what reason was this remote access built into the system?
Remote access is built into ALL distributed systems, this is to enable IT admin to update software, apply patches, etc onto many computers at one time. Remote access isn't wrong - you have it on your laptop when you are asked to update your apps etc. What is wrong is how remote access can be used fraudulently and without a proper security clearance or audit trail of who did what. The FJ engineers used SPMs logins to alter accounts - this would make it seem it came from the spm. It also seems, from evidence from the public enquiry, that the PO itself would approve such tampering with accounts - therefore offering more proof that the PO knew it was going on from an early stage Hope this helps..
When will all the victims be properly compensated? How much longer can they drag it out? Many of the victims lost everything, some even their lives. All compensation payments should be north of a million pounds. Payments should also be posthumously made to those who have already passed, with those payments retrospectively added to their estate. The post office must not be rewarded for delaying things for as long as possible. It will bring the post office to its financial knees and undoubtedly the British tax payer will foot the bill, but justice must be served. Those at the very top of the post office responsible for these crimes need to be prosecuted and sued civilly so that they lose everything, including their freedom.
Absolutely outrageous… her and Paula should be in prison! How dare they get so caught up in their own power trips, ego and self importance that they forgot the basics, look after others… they are disgusting! Shame on them…listening to the lies coming from them all is a terrifying glimpse into this world….lock them up! xx
Jail, jail, jail another winner!
She doesn’t care, she knows there will be zero repercussions
lying to parliament is an offense under law, is it not?
And to court before a judge.
GIVE THESE MEN THEIR WELL EARNED MONEY AND MORE !!!
Police must do their job before the next scandal is with the police failing to proceed with charges immediately
She. Vennels and several other senior executives need time to contemplate their wrongdoings at His Majesty's Pleasure.
I considered taking over a post office in 2013. So relieved now that I didn’t.
She going to jail for perjury
The arrogance of ancient fossils.
Between 2017 and 2023 The post office paid out 298 million pounds in legal costs plus it is expected that their legal bill will rise to 380 Million pounds by the end of This month Public funds are being allocated to some of the core Participants at the inquiry to pay for their legal representation Leading counsel for the inquiry Is paid 220 pounds per hour Then the public are funding Compensation costs This scandal has cost the uk Public a fortune
Ok wait, with all this evidence at hand, how is it that these subpostmasters haven't been compensated for their wrongful convictions?? How are they left at the gutter??
I'm guessing because first the lawyers have to have their snouts in the trough first. Once their belly's are full, then some scraps can be handed over to the real victims.
We are getting compensated now. Slowly.
@hserenewarren6688 glad to read something in favour of these subpostmasters.👍
how on earth is this guy working for someone else after all the knowledge that has came out. He should have at least a million quid in his pockets as small very small compensation !
unless they not turn up for work and not fall asleep at every meeting or gone deaf during the minutes .how can they not know they been rewarded a bonus for it .from the funds of people who not guilty.you tube dare you try and silence this you been caught already today.
Orgreave, Wapping, Hillsborough, Windrush, Grenfell, Iraq war, Hackingate, Post offices, can anyone point to any accountability being taken by those who committed crimes?
they knew thats why they sacked second sight a forensic it firm that the post office had appointed them selves
this is a great shame & people should be made & held accountable .
She's guilty of perjury- fact. Must be charged and prosecuted
shameful.....
How much did PO profits contribute to her salary during this period. Take her to court and make her give it all back....... and then let her rot in prison. WE ARE SICK OF THIS!!!!!!!!!
Well, if this lot don't end up being prosecuted, I believe Mr Bates has said he'll crowd fund private prosecutions. There'll be plenty of people who will support that. Don't ever confuse the law with the notion of justice but it will be very satisfying seeing these liars in a court of law trying to defend the indefensible.
If the CPS do not prosecute those people, then it will be because it does not want to, therefore I can imagine any private prosecution being taken over by the CPS, watered down or even dropped all together. But there again I am a cynical old sod.
Perjury-jail
Now sixty, I've worked in I.T. for over forty years and know of no colleague who would claim such a networked system is incapable of remote access and alteration, even with high level encryption and meatware management. Fujitsu would certainly not have made such an assertion or advised Post Office as such, so these managers demonstrated either gross incompetence or malicious intent in doing so. Either way, they deserve prosecution for their involvement. That judges allowed and accepted such an assertion in prosecutions is inexcusable, as proving it in any networked system would always be subject to reasonable doubt. This suggests this clusterfuck also includes the judicial system, perhaps swayed by the Post Office's reputation and influence?
Exactly, I have maintained this for some time. This was an Oracle system, with local data caching, and anyone who has been a database admin knows that server side changes can be made by admins. Were these logged ? I suspect not, even if field event timestamps were available, I bet they were not used. Otherwise it would be easy, forensically to have shown unauthorized changes.
This demonstrates a high level of ignorance about IT systems among the public at large and executives of large corporations. I worked as a programmer since the 70's and ended up as IT consultant on database installations at fortune 500 companies. Funnily enough I worked as a contractor at Old Street for several months on a CRMS - not Horizon!! - and at a BT project. Government IT projects were a nightmare. Remote access is necessary for all distributed systems. How that access is carried out, using the right security clearance and a proper audit trail, is a question for both FJ and the PO. It appears to me so far that there were no proper controls. Both FJ and PO are responsible for mismanagement.
They didn't want to know because they didn't understand that software can have significant bugs, errors, and defects. They didn't want to know because they weren't bright enough to be curious about the anomaly of so many people suddenly becoming 'thieves'. They even lauded Horizon for it - "without Horizon, we'd have never found all these thieves!". Ultimately, they didn't want to know because there was a corporate denial policy where your career went south unless you bigged-up the Horizon system. Careerism is bnot a justification for lying. These people MUST serve gaol time.
Anyone who's done any computer programming would know that,with the best will in the world,there inevitably are bugs that have to be found and ironed out before the program goes live.
Where did the missing money go?
The remote access part of this is a bit of a red herring. The point is that remote access was being used in genuine attempts to fix situations where there were missing transactions (albeit without the knowledge of the SPMs), and it's the missing transactions that caused the accounts to not balance. The lies about there not being remote access were to cover up the fact that there was any need to fix transactions in the first place.
Remote access means that you could never conclude that the SPMs are stealing with any degree of certainty.
@@brianmckee2267 Well yes, I get that, but a forensic examination of the data should show the origin of the transaction that is inserted as a correction... but then I'm also assuming the system was designed to embed the appropriate data to allow this to be identified as such.
I agree remote access is unlikely to be the source of most discrepancies, unless Fujitsu was deliberately messing up accounts (which seems unlikely). The most likely cause is missing or duplicated transactions because the system didn't receive or process them correctly. There ought to be transaction logs that, with forensic investigation, would reveal those errors. However, it sounds as though the Post Office was unwilling to provide those logs despite the obligation to provide relevant evidence to suspects' defence teams.
A real shame. The child maintenance service is much bigger than the post office scandal. It's gives many of us hope that justice is dished out and will happen to the corrpt government organisation being the Child Maintenance Service for the fictitious arrears, poverty we have been placed in, homelessness, the manslaughter CMS have caused where suicidal actions have been carried out due to the abrasive behaviour from the CMS. Keep a close eye as this is gaining a lot of attention and traction now with several political parties, media stations including TNT news and other outlets.
Prison!
It is concerning that the concept of corporate manslaughter is being considered. Corporations are run by people. Highly paid people - presumably for a reason. We have to ensure that people are held responsible for their actions. The subposters ran businesses - but, it was the subpostmasters themselves who lost everything, including, sadly for many, their lives.
Why are the people who own the post office not being held accountable?!
This scandal is beginning of more companies that need to be accountable for their wrong doings
Lies lies , and more lies .
they knew they were wrong. everything else after that was just cruelty.
🙄🤦🏽♀️🙄. Send her to jail!! She had ruining people lives
I saw nothing, I heard nothing, I was just following orders! Where have I heard that before?
Lies, yes. Dissembling, yes. Callous disregard, yes. But the way who was listened to, and who was not points at a most dysfunctional sort of classism. Take note of the people who are "sub"postmasters and those who run the "Office" and pay attention to who's word was taken at face value, and who was assumed to have their hands in the till.
When will she be arrested?
Oh my of god this is horrible what happened to this Man. And to even suggest that his non response equals a ‘yes’ response is a violation of his rights.
This is a massive public injustice!
Full clawback of bonuses and of the fat salaries unjustly paid out.
Needs to be locked up for sure.
Stunning! The perpetrators should never feel comfortable appearing in public ever again.
I hope those wronged post maters/mistresses take those liars that were in charge to court! I hope and prey this doesn’t get brushed under the carpet, they ruined so many lives and caused a few to take their own, Ed Davy blamed everyone else as usual.
Is it conceivable that the Post Office fine will be so large for all this neglect that it will be renationalised in order to keep the service alive?
Seriously they need to be held accountable! And compensation to the victims of their crimes
Do we have the statistics on how many sub postmasters were accused of offences prior to the institution of the Fujitsu system, and after it? That would seem to be the simplest, and most obvious indication that it was the system, not a sudden change in the criminality of sub postmasters.
THIS IS A RESPECTED GENTLEMAN HIS DIGNEY BACK !!!
They have given up the horizon system right? I do feel sorry for those sub-postmasters! Cannot believe this horrendous event, such miscarriage of justice！
Correctly explained, beautifully said, and true beyond words used, god bless you ireland, from an ancient briton with irish blood links, my heart is with you !
They should all be FULLY compensated for what ever they lost.
The complete arrogance and total denial by senior figures in the Post Office is staggering. She should go to prison to reflect.
Such arrogance. Such ignorance. Such cruelty. Hopefully, there are laws that she & others have broken and hopefully, they will spend many, many years in jail.
The only hope is that justice is finally delivered and the senior people in the post office and Fujitsu face consequences in courts