How To Spot Bad Writing - Jack Grapes
Jack Grapes is an award-winning poet, playwright, actor, teacher, and the editor and publisher of ONTHEBUS, one of the top literary journals in the country. He has won several publishing grants and Fellowships in Literature from the National Endowment for the Arts. He's also received nine Artist-in- Residence Grants from the California Arts Council to teach writing in various schools throughout Los Angeles. He is the author of 13 books of poetry, including TREES, COFFEE, AND THE EYES OF DEER, and BREAKING DOWN THE SURFACE OF THE WORLD. A spoken-word CD, Pretend, was recently issued by DePaul University. He is also author of a chapbook of poems and paintings titled AND THE RUNNING FORM, NAKED, BLAKE. His most recent publication is LUCKY FINDS, a boxed set of 50 cards that extend and parody the dynamic artistic productions of high-modernist poets such as Ezra Pound and Charles Olson. For more information on Jack's classes, please visit: jackgrapes.com/classesgeneral...
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We can agree that Pulp Fiction has one of the best dialogues right? Well Quentin said in an interview that the dialogue he writes is not based on how people actually talk. It's based on how people wished they would talk.
That's the problem with Tarantino, everyone's talking like him. Btw, it's 'dialogues', no 'dialogue's'.
@@orcaflotta7867 sorry I'm from Hungary gonna correct it right away 😅 Btw. Can you say megszentségteleníthetetlenségeskedéseitekért?
@@laido I can say it. Probably not correctly though.
@@jelliott8424 so now you know what I feel while writing dialogues 😘
@@laido 😆
"Character creates plot, and voice creates character." Over-use of adverbs, and adjectives. Got it.
This is awkward, my lady friend just walked in while Jack continues to say he is a bad boy. She gave me the WTF look before she slammed the door shut. Her mom just came to pick her up.
I read a few comments that disagree with this, and they are missing the point. The key takeaway is not that “writing” writing is bad. It is that without a good foundation, someone’s writing style will feel unnatural. We all speak. We all grew up. We all have certain quirks. Those quirks are part of how we are unique. When forming your writing style, (I think) he is saying understand how you speak and then start adding in literary techniques.
That's a bingo.
Great explanation!
@@williambartholmey5946 I get that reference.
I'm lucky enough to know Jack and call him a mate. He is not only one of the most creative writers I know, but truly a generous, outstanding bloke.
“ writers are people and people are crazy “ 😂 great line
"Just because I write a novel doesn't mean I'm sane." 🤪 Jack is gold! 💛
He reminds me of my grandpa, Peter, who passed away in 2016. He was such an amazing man.
This channel is truly amazing, so much valuable advice that's been helping me get my degree in creative writing. I appreciate what you guys do ❤
Nice to see you finding such value here Kira! Our best to you and your writing.
I took a creative writing class 5 years ago in community College. I am still in college in hopes to be a writer and filmmaker because I like to create my own stories.
@@itsblitz4437 quit drinking first
The best a rule of writing: In order to break a rule of writing you must know in detail why it is a good rule.
Some writer's and reviewers hate alot of dialogue from successful big budget movies. I happen to like most of them. Good or bad, I find people's taste in script writing subjective.
Art in general is subjective frankly. Whether it be scripts, novels, painting, wood carving etc. Its all subjective. Some people don't like this idea (especially the pro critics), but its the reality I see everyday and explains why some people can love something and others hate it. Of course you could say 'the masses are stupid' but tbh that just feels like a bitter person who can't get sales or reads and so makes excuses.
It's 'writers' not 'writer's' And it's 'a lot' not 'alot'.
@@orcaflotta7867 no one cares
@@matthewgordonpettipas6773 This idea that because someone dislikes something that most others like or vice versa negates objectivity is just wrong on its face. People rejecting beauty does not mean beauty doesn't really exist and is solely defined by the individual. Some people are think feces tastes delicious...does that mean that their opinions on what is delicious are to be held as equal to the rest of us? Of course not. At the root of it is fragile ego that says "it MUST be subjective because there's no way I can possibly like something that's objectively crap!" We all have subjective views on something objective. I like a perfectly well cooked, seasoned, and juicy steak, but I also like McDonalds, knowing it's crap. But I understand that many won't agree with this, as this view presupposes that art is tied to reaching for beauty which in turn is objective and holds Truth. You don't even believe it's all subjective, otherwise you likely wouldn't be watching this video and would say The Room is on par with the Lord of the Rings.
I do have a problem with the write how you talk idea. If you've ever sat and listened to a conversation, people are hella repetitive in their speech patterns. In fact in the same conversation many people will repeat the exact same phrase a few times. The reason to write things "writerly" is to vary the structure. Otherwise it gets boring to read.
Exactly 👍
Nah
Most people are also stupid. Like me. The best books I've read have interesting dialogue that doesn't seem necessarily realistic, but purposeful and elegant. Perhaps also a big haphazordous to make it more riviting. Point being, people talking "normally" is extremely mundane. For Stephen King, it works extremely well due to the perspective he shows everyone in (which creates character) but if it's always like that it gets mundane. Perhaps it's because I hate realism, because it reminds me of life. I want to be distracted from that.
I don't think he's saying to copy the monotonous small talk of people around you, but more like write in a way that doesn't feel unnatural or stiff. Some people are so focused on trying to make their sentences pretty that it feels choppy and frankly, gross to read--like that elementary school proverb, "Start each sentence with a different word," that takes the focus away from the content and puts more on the structure. Writing like you talk should be more about letting the reader get lost in the story instead of knocking them out of their emersion with an ugly, but structured sentenced. Kind of like an office building standing alone on a hillside. I'm not a professional writer, but I tend to trust them.
But what you wrote to tell isn't repetitive, and I feel it's you talking. lol
It is ok to admit I am a bad boy
Im a baaaad boy
Lmao
He described Salinger the same way Holden described his brother: "He's dead now." Just sticks with me because John Green made such a big focus on that phrasing when he talked about Catcher. Just reinforces the point of writing how people talk.
This channel helped me so much producing and directing my first short. I'm on to the next one now. Thanks!
Great to hear! Congrats! Best of luck on the next one.
To be honest, modern writing is all about utilitarian language with no poetry or imagination at all, and encountering novels like Wilde's is like finding another, better world.
You aren't wrong but if you dive into everything Jack talks about he's not against poetic voice entirely. He's about invoking it with purpose and intent. He's got an entire voice, The Lost World, for going literary and beautiful. Just make sure you have your foundations before going there
Modern writing is all about removing the fat to get to the essential. That said, I don't agree this should be the 'standard' for every writer. I fucking love Nathaniel Hawthorne's work. I enjoy finding (and creating) the 'rhythm' in a story. I absolutely hate being restricted to verbs like 'he said' and not being allowed to add any seasoning to my dish. If I wanted my stories to be simple and to-the-point, then I'd read my History book. :p
Ernest Hemingway's influence is suffocating. Hemingway is great, sure, but does everyone need to write like him?
How did you come to this conclusion?
@@blossom357 Does everyone *really* write like Hemingway? In what sense?
I love Jack Grapes. He breaks things down very well when it comes to writing...
Neil Gaiman uses adverbs. They’re appropriate at times. It depends on the genre.
That is very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very possible.
Honestly, its a myth adverbs are bad. That's not saying you should use them all the time but they aren't bad like writing teachers like to make it seem. I mean, do you know how many times I've read 'suddenly' in books or scripts and supposedly its the biggest no no word ever conceived? Just like very and a whole bunch of other words we're told not to use or use on rare occasions. Read works by professionals and you'll see these writing 'rules' shattered all the time. So either once you're in you can write sloppy, or, what I believe, most of the writing rules are made up by people who don't write.
Like with anything, it depends on context and intention.
@@matthewgordonpettipas6773 Elmore Leonard didn't condemn 'suddenly,' but he did condemn 'all of a sudden.'
I believe the issue is not the presence of these words, but the over use and reliance on them.
This guy’s attack on adverbs Relentless and ill curbed Leaves one…quietly anxious? Maybe a bit perturbed? Somewhat uptight? Uneasy? And even a tad hurt? No, not really shaken But rather maybe…stirred? It’s kinda like disturbing My God! It’s all….”adverbing”:)))
Thank you for proving his point
To be fair, you used mostly adjectives in this example. But I do agree that a well chosen verb can be more powerful than an adverb: He closed the door quickly. He slammed the door.
He said overuse. He never said you couldn't use them.
Love your pragmatic approach to writing
I am amazed at the number of people here missing the point about his first activity, 'write how you talk'. Number 1, it makes you think differently about your writing and pulls you out of your comfort zone, forcing you to learn. Number 2, if you're writing dialogue of any kind it's imperative to consider how it will sound. I've lost count the number of times I've had to send speeches or advertising script back to the team because it sounds ridiculous when said out loud.
i once wrote a story that intentionally goes back and forth between writing like i talk and writing like a writer (or more accurately, like a narrator) which i used for comedic effect... like one moment, the narration of the story is very serious and describes something that might as well be kinda messed up, only for it to then write what's basically just the hypothetical narrator reacting to the situation, without it being a character's dialogue...
Can’t believe that there is more content with Jack ❤️😂
I don't know if any of you in the comment section have heard of it, but Sidney Poitier died today at age of 94. He was a really good actor. I have only seen three of his films, Raising in the sun, Guess who's coming to Dinner, In the Heat of the Night. Truly a sad moment for his friends, family and admirers. First Bogdanovich, Now Poitier. Don't know what else is gonna happen this year.
Fabulous teacher.
This channel is a goldmine.
Cheers!
One of your best segments, Film Courage.
The most intriguing for me, is wonder why that form, this talking style hit us more, psychology speaking. Looks like, for me, that all kinds of storytelling, goes back to our oral past. The first forms of history told were passed on orally. From the recording of these stories in paper, the written storytelling language emerges.
Imagine Tolkien sitting in on this class. "Yeah, we're going to need you delete all of that. It just sounds too good."
Not a single line of Tolkien's dialog made it into the movies.
1:15 Transformation Line👌👌👌 3:15 Four Concepts 6:45 Adverbs & Abjectives 9:00 Bad Writing 11:15 Character & Voice 🔥 13:20 Readers & Writers
This is so true. I did a fairly expensive online creative writing course and they never taught us how to write, sentence by sentence, word by word. The only things I learned, which made it worth while in the end, were to put conflict into every scene and end on a cliffhanger. PS Stephen King's chapter on adverbs is full of adverbs and adverbial phrases.
Stephen King is the most wordy, sloppy writer ever. Great storyteller, pretty bad with language.
It’s when he goes into italics that gets me. Flowery page filling that takes you away from the main story. With The Gunslinger it was all good until book 3 or 4, and then the italics came out. Skip skip skip. Made the later books very short!
Great advices
To say I strongly disagree with this advice would be an understatement. Most great writers don’t write the way they speak. If they did, nothing would distinguish them from the vast majority of writers. In fact, I would say my joy of writing primarily comes from experimenting and playing with language. That’s what makes most writers great. It’s not what they say, but how they say it. The aesthetic complexity of classic literature is what inspired me to write to begin with it. If you don’t like adverbs or adjectives, then you might as well never read classic literature, within which they are ubiquitous. Moreover, who are you to decide how I talk? Most people have multiple vocal styles, not just one. If I’m talking about something I’m passionate about, my writing voice can be very much replicated, although obviously not as polished. This is what bothers me about many writing professors. They want students to conform to their philosophy of writing, their narrow way of thinking, and to their own inadequacies as an instructor. It’s intellectual laziness working at its finest. I dare say, many of these professors are probably jealous they don’t have the same literary prowess as their students. If my words sound harsh, that’s because I’m not holding back my utter contempt for shoddy advice like this.
Spot on
I've seen it in speech writing, a lot of people struggle with writing actual dialogue. They write these beautifully descriptive narratives which, when read, sound just like a marketing campaign. It sounds false. I imagine the exercise is to pull people away from the prose and think about how it would actually be said. A good speech writer would consider how the speaker talks and use vocabulary and tone that matches with their personality. As in, write as they would talk.
I agree 1000%. Very peculiar abstractions being made by professor.
I think perhaps the video is just edited in a way that blurs his point. I think he is explicitly saying that when people write dialog, they often write it in a way that sounds very literary and not natural. I think his exercise is to get people to write dialog as one would really speak. I don’t think he meant it as saying every author should write all narrative as they would speak. It is an exercise for specifically getting dialog to be less wordy. My only real and definite disagreement with this is his choice of saying Steven King is a good writer. I won’t say he’s not a successful writer. I do like his books about writing, but I find it funny that the professor in the video talked specifically about wanting dialog to sound the way people naturally speak when King’s dialog is probably the worst there is. Seriously, try reading any of King’s dialog out loud and it sounds clunky and awkward and not at all how people really speak.
Well, to be fair, he didn't say to always write as you speak, but to be aware or, even better, to choose when you should do that or not. That is what he calls voices. There are another videos in this channel about the topic and one specifically about voices.
If I had to write as I talk... I wouldn't write anything (I'm an extreme introvert).
Honestly mine would be complete word salad, so the writing version of that is 'this is how I would ideally say it if my brain didn't occasionally blue screen and make me forget' lol
If you are writing about an extreme introvert character then he should talk like you, if you are writing about a mafia boss he should be talking like a mafia boss would talk, if you are writing about a fully extrovert party animal then he should talk like one. I guess what he said was only half right, every character should be written to talk like they are supposed to talk or else everyone would have the same style of dialogue
Anytime I read a bad review of one of my books or get a 'not selected' from a film festival for one of my specs, I watch a Film Courage vid or three. I've been reminded that I still have a lot to learn and there's nothing better on YT for authors of any stripe. No, my books are not Big Lebowski fanfic...but you were thinking it...
Great to see you can find some comfort and inspiration here. How many books have you published?
Not on the rug..... man
@@filmcourage I've published two novels and working on a third. Finished three specs and in various stages with about three more.
Always thought that, but wasn't sure😊. Write as you talk, as much as you can.
I love Jack!
Listening to this interview (comma) I could understand that I need to learn how to write better.
I wish I saw this earlier. My film exam had asked me a question about writing on the topic "OTT platforms are the future of cinema" in the form of a conversation between me and my friend. God, tf i hve written. The complex sentences using 'which' and 'what' and 'that'. U will laugh reading it.
The problem with this is that I talk like I write. Like, if I have to explain something with verbosity, I will. Similarly, I will use all the parts of speech that my mind can conceive of if they convey the message as my mind constructs it. But, also, I've always hated "talking like a normal person". You got all these cool words and turns of phrase and you're gonna stick with some dumb cliches you picked up from your parents? How boring! Speak in sweeping and geand gestures. Display the majesty of language as much as you can.
dumb is putting yourself higher or lessening others because they don’t share the same interests
I’m trying to improve in song writing do you think these tips to writing are applicable to lyric I find all these fascinating being a literary lay person
"Always write (and read) with the ear, not the eye. You shd hear every sentence you write as if it was being read aloud or spoken. If it does not sound nice, try again." C.S. Lewis (Letters) I'm not sure it's about writing how you talk, but writing so that it 'sounds' nice in a person's head or out loud so that we're not tripping over clunky/unnecessary language.
Writers are people, and people are crazy. xD That's a great quote.
I'd be curious to hear what Jack thinks about the writing in The Book of the New Sun series by Gene Wolfe. It's a fantasy/scifi series written in the first person. I've never read a book quite like it.
WOW. How wonderful it is to bask in the orality of this Master. I have to transcribe into my journal the first five minutes of this interview. It is so refreshing to hear all the masters presented on this channel. I have learned so much. In this "lecture," I understand why I had such a difficult time living in France where EVERYONE wants to talk like a living book and the patois of the street is forbidden. After all my "formal" education, I am finally relearning HOW to write: like I talk. How cool is that.
Funny. When he was talking about characters and little details we should know about them, I was thinking, Stephen King is the best at that. And now his first example of a writer who does without adverbs, Stephen King. And now Proust. What a guy.
I read Stephen King’s book ‘On Writing’ and after his segment on use of adverbs he admitted that he still uses them occasionally. Made me wanna pull my hair out.
Adjectives in general should be used sparingly, buy sometimes its just the best way to convey necessary information. Finding the balance is crucial.
It sounds like a rebuttal is needed, "In Defense of Adverbs"
The big crime is to use them in dialog tags, but you don't get that in a screenplay.
OK... but there's no ban on using adverbs. It's overuse that's the problem. It's recommended to eliminate as many of them as possible, as it forces a writer to be more imaginative.
I see Jack Grapes, I listen and "like" immediately.
Cheers Greg! This is our last one with Jack. Glad you have enjoyed this series.
Love this guy, just talking the truth.
*I really really love Holly Black's writing in the Folk of The Air series!* It's an enemies to lovers story written in first person present tense (as customary for YA) and the narrator (who is also the main character), Jude, is a very practical and determined young lady who craves power and to fit into a world where she doesn't really belong (Faerie) but but thinks it's beautiful and terrible and basically she keeps simping for its beauty but is always very aware of her place in it. Ditto for the people around her and especially the love interest which she absolutely hates the majority of the time. So the descriptions are always very descriptive and occasionally flowery but not in an overwhelming pretentious way because they are always precise and to the point, saying just enough to paint a clear and beautiful picture without being overdone. I've read some of her other works but none of them captured me like this series and it's one of my favorite of all time. Here are some of my favorite writing moments from the 2nd book - The Wicked King. (Spoilers to book 1 and 2 ahead... I tried keeping them obscure but...) *This magnificent description of an absolute douchebag:* "The new High King of Faerie lounges on his throne, his crown resting at an insouciant angle, his long villainously scarlet cloak pinned at his shoulders and sweeping the floor. An earring shines from the peak of one pointed ear. Heavy rings glitter along his knuckles. His most ostentatious decoration, however, is his soft, sullen mouth. It makes him look every bit the jerk that he is." *This brilliant setup of a scene:* “Where are we going?” I ask the darkness. “His apartments,” the Ghost tells me as we emerge into a hall, a staircase below where Cardan sleeps. “There’s been some kind of disturbance.” I have difficulty imagining what trouble the High King got into in his own rooms, but it doesn’t take long to discover. When we arrive, I spot Cardan resting among the wreckage of his furniture. Curtains ripped from their rods, the frames of paintings cracked, their canvases kicked through, furniture broken. A small fire smolders in a corner, and everything stinks of smoke and spilled wine. Nor is he alone. On a nearby couch are Locke and two beautiful faeries-a boy and a girl-one with ram’s horns, the other with long ears that come to tufted points, like those of an owl. All of them are in an advanced state of undress and inebriation. They watch the room burn with a kind of grim fascination. Servants cower in the hall, unsure if they should brave the king’s wrath and clean up. Even his guards seem intimidated. They stand awkwardly in the hall outside his massive doors-one barely hanging from its hinges-ready to protect the High King from any threat that isn’t himself. “Carda-” I remember myself and sink into a bow. “Your Infernal Majesty.” *Everything about this moment in general:* "He needs no encouragement to sprawl on my mattress, head on the pillow, black hair spilling like crow feathers. He looks up at me with his night-colored eyes, beautiful and terrible all at once. “For a moment,” he says, “I wondered if it wasn’t you shooting bolts at me.” I make a face at him. “And what made you decide it wasn’t?” He grins up at me. “They missed.” I have said that he has the power to deliver a compliment and make it hurt. So, too, he can say something that ought to be insulting and deliver it in such a way that it feels like being truly seen. Our eyes meet, and something dangerous sparks. He hates you, I remind myself. “Kiss me again,” he says, drunk and foolish. “Kiss me until I am sick of it.” I feel those words, feel them like a kick to the stomach. He sees my expression and laughs, a sound full of mockery. I can’t tell which of us he’s laughing at. He hates you. Even if he wants you, he hates you. Maybe he hates you the more for it. After a moment, his eyes flutter closed. His voice falls to a whisper, as though he’s talking to himself. “If you’re the sickness, I suppose you can’t also be the cure.” *And finally, these descriptions of a kiss in one of the hottest most satisfying scenes I've ever read:* "He kisses me again, and it’s like falling off a cliff. Like a mountain slide, building momentum with every touch, until there is only crashing destruction ahead." "It feels like a geas. It has all the sinister pleasure of sneaking out of the house, all the revolting satisfaction of stealing. It reminds me of the moment before I slammed a blade through my hand, amazed at my own capacity for self-betrayal."
Whats the nest way to write without using punctuation ? How to forget about the commas and periods even though its a run on sentence?
Anyone know what "the image moment," or "the association" are?
I've just watched a bunch of these videos and, while I found them all very interesting and insightful, I don't think they're for me. I'm just an amateur writer, and writing is just a hobby for me and probably always will be (I lack the self-confidence to believe any of my works are worth paying for), and I find that I write what I want to read. I start with ideas, a story in my head, that I wish I could read, then I wonder if, just maybe, someone else might want to read it too, so I write it. I've come across plenty of "writing advice", but I don't always agree with it, or I all too often feel that it doesn't work for me, because I think in a way that's incompatible with that advice. In fact, I don't think any of the writing advice I've come across has actually been helpful to me, no matter how good it is. If anything, it causes me to overthink my writing, doubt myself, and then I get discouraged. Maybe I'm neurodivergent, maybe I'm weird, maybe I just have different tastes, but I refuse to write in a way that's "proper" or "good writing", if I don't myself want to read it that way, because it just isn't fun for me. And the single most important thing for me when writing, is for me to keep my passion, because without it, I lose motivation. If I have a story I want to tell, with characters I love enough to want to share with others, then I'll write about them in whatever way keeps me invested enough to keep writing.
Thanks for watching and taking time to comment. We hope you continue to write, whether as a hobby or for something more. There are many schools of thought regarding the proper way to start a story, rewriting, etc. Hoping you're able to find what works for you! Thanks again. :)
@@filmcourage All your videos are great; it's why I'm a bit upset that they couldn't help me specifically. The whole time I was listening to these very talented people, imparting genuine words of wisdom, I kept wishing I could use their advice in some way. Everything they said made perfect sense, but it just didn't apply to me. So I felt a little disheartened and wanted to share my personal thoughts. The single most useful piece of advice I've ever come across has been to "write it badly" at first, just to get your idea out. And I completely agree, it doesn't have to be perfect, not in the beginning, it just has to exist. So I'll just keep experimenting and writing whatever I feel like, until I'm happy with it. Thank you for these videos. Just because they didn't work for me, doesn't mean I'm not grateful that they exist and can help others.
This is Wisdom tho!
Dose anyone know if there’s any way you can remember movie ideas you thought of? I got them from movies years ago and maybe even watching videos hear on KZhead.I’ve watched the movies again maybe not all of them but I can’t remember what I thought of.But I’ll always write them down from now on.
As you watch, listen, read what first "triggered" your idea, try rubbing your earlobes gently at the same time. It may stimulate a memory.
Can I get that book asap! No cap I'm getting his book now I think....or if I can find it and it's $20 or less lol
Don't be as simple as a machine Printing ink on a page. Be as natural as the forest that provides us with the tools. If you cannot interrogate without True intentions of solving the both of you will remain silent and you will never get answers you so desire. If you pay close attention the key to being free and allowing yourself to break bondage is sometimes right in front of you.
Many novel writers have a hard time separating common speech from stylistic literary prose. I once encountered someone who could not comprehend why I wrote a first-person story in such a coarse, simplistic style. They were demanding a flowery show-don't-tell structure. My first question was: what jackass talks like that in real life?
"he mumbled" ... "he averred"... Okay, so here is my pet-peeve about this criticism. On the one hand, use of adverbs and adjectives is a sign of bad writing. But on the other hand, he's complaining about writers using alternative verbs like 'he mumbled'. I get that he wants to keep it simple (and likely prefers writers to use 'he said' instead). But certain verbs carry different weight/tones than others, which may be needed for a scene. 'He said' sounds/feels different than 'He screamed'. Finally, while I appreciate the push to keep things simple, I also don't think it is for everyone (that's not to say the overuse of adverbs/adjectives is okay lol). A writer may want to create their own 'voice' too. That may require them to experiment with verbs and sentence structures. It may mean they go against the 'rules' of good writing etiquette. Hell, I remember a time when the use of 'But' at the start of a sentence was a HUGE no-no in the writing world (even though it felt natural to me). BUT as you can see here, most of us TALK that way in real life.
Well, for dialogue I think the idea is that if you feel the need to use "He screamed" and don't want to say "He said", just leave out either one of those. Make the line's intent known through its content, like, "I hate you!" or... something. Look, I'm no writer. You probably understand what I mean, though.
He said that overuse of adjectives and adverbs was a sign of bad writing. There's no ban on occasionally using a different verb to said where it's effective.
The road to hell is paved with adverbs
Whether it's grammar, style or story it seems like so many great books break all of the standard rules and exemplify things no one would ever teach you in a writing class. What if you happened to know this guy in the late 1200's and the told you about this thing he was working on. A guide through hell, purgatory and paradise! And he's going to have all these famous people from The Bible and classical times--and a bunch of his friends and enemies from Florence no one ever heard of too. Oh, and Virgil will be his tour guide until Beatrice guides him through heaven. "Who?", you say. "Beatrice. From La Vita Nova fame? My girlfriend--okay she's TECHNICALLY not my girlfriend. In fact she married another dude and actually I never really knew her that well. Oh, and she's dead. But yeah she's going to be heaven's hostess!". You probably would have rolled your eyes said, "Yeah THAT sounds like a real page turner. Good luck!". Or what if a certain Elizabethan playwright said he was going to tell the famous story of Hamlet. "Oh cool! I love a revenge drama!". "Well.........that's sort of what it will be. Except in my version Hamlet is a philosopher and scholar and poet and he spends the whole play doubting himself and hesitating to do anything really. And he's got a lot of mommy issues. And step-dad issues". "Grrrrrreat, Bill". Or what if a guy said he wanted to re-write The Odyssey! Except it happens in one day. In Dublin. And Odysseus is a middle aged Jewish cuckold ad salesman who we see taking a shit and jerking off to a disabled girl. But don't worry--there WILL be a hallucinatory whorehouse scene! And a final chapter which is one giant run-on sentence! Would you say, "Wow, that is DEFINITELY a modern masterpiece in the making!". Anyone up for an 800 page novel about a lunatic who tries to kill a whale who bit his leg off? And of course once in a while blank verse will be spoken and it will have everything you ever wanted to know about whale oil but were afraid to ask! What about a book where a girl dumps a boy when they are teenagers and marries a rich doctor? The boy decides to wait out the marriage for the next half a century until he dies. he never marries or has kids--because he's saving himself for her. Then they get together as an elderly couple. And there's cholera. Textbook love story, am I right!? I could go on forever with this. I don't think a writing class would have ever said these are good ideas. They are insane, terrible ideas! Yet here we are. They are classics.. Great writing is about following your inner voice and breaking all the rules. But teachers can't really teach you how to break rules. Maybe most never become great writers because they don't dare to go way out on a limb with crazy ideas for stories and follow through with them. The great writer has guts.
What do you like about this video?
That the description reveals that he is a poet. It really helps to know who is giving their advice as it puts its utility into context.
@@____uncompetative He talks a lot about writing how you talk, but wouldn't a poet speak in ways that aren't how someone talks?
That it really seems to have upset a lot of people who think they know how to write lol
@@berserkerpride I think that is what the second level is all about which he touches on in the latter half of this video. At first he wants everyone to stop being "mannered" in their writing and using a lot of verb modifiers, and fewer noun modifiers, as that leads to a lot of overwrought purple prose. From a "method acting" perspective this approach is similar to Stanislavski getting actors to be honest, rather than theatrical (so, Hoffman rather than Olivier). Having deconstructed people's unconsious style, he then finds ways to build upon their rediscovered "sincere voice" into more poetic layers. At least that was what I inferred from this video. He has done other interviews on this channel. I think it probably works okay for poetry, but I don't think an approach based in "method acting" is going to work for all writers. Listen to the advice that makes sense to you and see if your work improves as a result, I guess, would be the acid test of any methodology.
Nothing.
This guy is truly a master.
Woww, I am here early.
I see a lot of people writing scripts where the characters are saying each other's names while with each other... So bad.
It was a dark and stormy night; the rain fell in torrents except at occasional intervals, when it was checked by a violent gust of wind which swept up the streets (for it is in London that our scene lies), rattling along the housetops, and fiercely agitating the scanty flame of the lamps that struggled against the darkness.
I have read that many times and still have not idea what it is rambling about.
Yes but this is novel writing not screenwriting. EXT LONDON STREETS NIGHT Rain falls in torrents with violent gusts of wind. It rattles along the housetops. Gas street lamps flicker.
He's not wrong. I remember a comedian saying something that felt so true when I was young, and it feels even truer today: We're standing on the shoulders of freaks.
9:36 I learned from sh* posting on KZhead comments that nothing you say will get any traction unless it's easily read. Make whatever point you want to make, but say it as clear as possible and speak as though you're the readers own thoughts
Normally I love the advice on this channel but I've never read a book that was written how the writer actually talks. Then you say not to use adverbs and adjectives? People use them in their daily speech so this is just contradictory. A lot of people who stutter or have a nervous disposition can sound more confident or clearer in their writing. I've listened to interviews with authors who write action packed thrillers and they sound like their favorite hobby is sleeping. So no you probably shouldn't write like you talk.
This is "Film Courage". They're talking about script writing, which is people talking...
@@Ailieorz They also talk about novels. And people in movies don't sound like real people either.
I don't think people use adverbs and adjectives in daily conversation nearly as much as bad writers do. I mean, my God, if everyone talked in purple prose every day I think I would actually go live in the woods.
Heard of Free Indirect Discourse? That weaves in how people talk with narrative. Also, he never said you could not use adjectives or adverbs, but that their overuse is a sign of amateur writing. Also, he said that the exercise was to help people distinguish between writing how you talk and writing in the narrative way, so that you know when and how to use each one.
This channel is the aphrodisiac to Hollywood.
Jack must love an adverbial phrase..😄
Holly shit is it weird that just the other day I wrote a skit talking as my dog since watching the other video w him!?
Film Courage seems to respond to positive comments that praise their content and don’t engage with ones that give legit criticism of the content being viewed. Curious.
They aren't required to respond to any comments. Why would they bother with the negative ones? They aren't elected officials.
So what is your legitimate criticism that requires attention?
A lot of the critiques in this comments' section seem to come from people who didn't actually listen to what Jack Grapes said.
well, I was glad to hear J.D. Salinger was a nice man.
That's very debatable if some other sources are to be trusted.
04:25 Jack's Bad Example: Standing by the window I could see that it was going to rain. Jack's Correction: I was standing by the window and I could see that it was going to rain. Real World Dialogue: It's going to rain. Don't listen to this nonsense. The simplest way to say something is usually closest to the truth.
Here is the My Salinger Year trailer based on the book by Joanna Rakoff kzhead.info/sun/jNWncpeqsayogq8/bejne.html
"But I, that am not made for sportive tricks, nor made to court an amorous looking glass - I, that am rudely stamped and want loves majesty; to strut before a wanton ambling nymph - I, that am *curtailed* of this *fair proportion*, cheated of feature by dissembling nature, deformed, unfinished, and sent before my time into this breathing world scarce half-made-up, and that so lamely and unfashionable that dogs bark at me as I halt past them..." That's from the opening soliloquy in Shakespeare's Richard III. Is it amateurish? I doubt Jack would say so, so I'd like more specifics on the adjective / adverb analysis, cuz it seems rather empty if the answer is "Shakespeare can toss a few adverbs and a dozen adjectives into three lines and it's no problem cuz he's Shakespeare"
Writing styles have changed substantially since Shakespeare's day.
how many successful screenplays has Jack Grapes written? If someone can post an IMDB link , or something.
He is a writer of poetry and plays.
@@bighands69 zero. thanks for clarifying.
@@finc4164 He is a writer and at no point was it claimed he made movies. He writes plays. If he desired he could write movies. He was involved in television.
@@bighands69 For the purposes of this channel specifically, his advice seems too focused on prose instead of film.
The reason that excessive adverbs are the mark of an amateur writer is because they're the easiest way to tell rather than show (ie the old wisdom "show don't tell") However, sometimes as a writer, you're in a quick paced part of the story where you can't waste valuable words. In those cases, telling can be preferable to showing and adverbs can be preferable to wordier alternatives. It's just as amateurish to never use adverbs because of overly general writing advice on KZhead. You have to understand why/when it's appropriate, I think that's what Jack Grapes is getting at.
Telling is very important for transitioning into scenes.
Then when is it ever a good time to use adverbs and adjectives?
How do you write like you talk in 3rd person
Is this a reupload?
This is our last segment with Jack. We previously published Jack's full interview so if you watched his full interview you would have seen this already.
@@filmcourage Ah, I see.
12:00 They wanted to be withholdin’ what? ;)
we are all bad bad boys
lmao Why is this dude allergic to adjectives and adverbs? Who hurt him? 😂
Unfortunately, his family was murdered by adjectives and adverbs
He said that overuse was the problem.
"I'm a bad boy."
I like what this man has to say, and I think he gives good advice. But I hate Caulfield, he was such a terrible, self-centered whiner. Makes me feel like I must be missing something.
I am agree and I feel the same way every time 😂
I mean he's 16. That's kind of who 16 year olds are.
I'm a bad boy too. A very very bad boy.
This guy is a smug, pseudo-intellectual who needs to get off his high horse. He’s not talking from the heart, he’s regurgitating some clever sounding stuff he’s heard from great writers. He reminds me of the teacher in ‘Tick Tick Boom’ who just repeats everything Stephen Sondheim says. My favourite movies are filled with characters who talk like they had hours to prepare every line they said. In real life we rarely have the ability to speak with the level of nuance that, say for example, the characters in Casablanca speak with.
He is an out and out writer. He is not a wannabe film writer he writes plays, poetry and other pieces. He is also an author on writing. If you did not understand what he was getting at is people who are learning to write or not very good at it need to change their focus. His words are not aimed at natural writers who are the best of the best.
I disagree in so many ways...
read my cousin's writing and it sucked; the reason I thought it sucked was because he was "writing how he talks." That was the first thing that ran through my head. It was awful. This is bad advice.
Dialogue should sound like people talking. Not the exposition/prose, though if it's in a character's POV it should read how they see the world and with thoughts that match the character. A child's POV will be different than an adult's (To Kill a Mockingbird is a good example). But yeah, prose that sounds like how the author talks might get tired fast.
@@elduderino5390 Obviously the scenario you mentioned wasn't applicable or I wouldn't have said what I said. Lord.
@@ravenswood118 No need to call me Lord...but thanks.
Maybe you have bad taste
@@ravenswood118 When writing a play for the vast majority of people it is best for them to write as they talk so that they can focus on the character exchange. Having characters using unnatural words talking in funny tones is not exactly entertaining unless the skill of the writer is of a level that allows them to do it as part of their creativity.
I love how triggered people are by this guy's super common sense advice. I had no idea adverbs had such a fervent fanbase.
Because this guy wants everyone to write in the most sterile possible way. Adverbs and adjectives, like any part of writing, should be used sparingly. This militant opposition to certain writing styles is why every novel these days feels the same.
@@blossom357 7:45
@@blossom357 He didn't say that you should never use adjectives and adverbs, but that overuse is a sign of bad writing. Using fewer adjectives and adverbs does not make your writing sterile, unless you can't think of strong verbs and nouns. It can make your writing more visceral, though, as you're not having to add filler (adjectives and adverbs) in each sentence. It can make your work read a lot faster and keep readers grounded in the story.
Um, so if I... erm, write like I talk... then... I mean... wou- ... wouldn't that, be, kinda, annoying? I dunno I think there's... erm, err, like a a reason you edit, this stuff, down and, umm, not, really, talk how you talk in a fff, fictional thing. Was an interesting experiment but I don't think it made my writing better. I sound like a discount Rick & Morty.
Argumentum ad absurdum. He said learn both so that you can very the sentence structure. Free Indirect Discourse uses components of speech and narrative prose woven together.
Committed an adjectivicide on my story...
Watch any current movie, most of them are amateur
Solve the problem yourself.? Instead of doing this sir .? Because I quite curtained I like to stay simply sir not after you sir.?
TIL I'm a bad writer 😔
Lol JK Rowling is a best selling author and she uses lots of adverbs
So is James Patterson and that does not mean very much.
Best-selling =/= best writing technique. I enjoy the Harry Potter series for its story, but I wouldn't cite it as having the best prose. Also, Jack Grapes blamed overuse of adverbs and adjectives, not any use.
Terrible writing with great characters and pacing.
In other words: write as if you're talking.
No, he said you should use both.
How to spot bad writing? Look for anything written by Disney or any other huge corporate owned source. That's 95% of bad written.
be interested to see this guy explain his dictums to Jack Kerouac or Henry Miller. Possibly the two best writers that ever lived who used adverbs and adjectives like people use toilet paper. Also people writing like they speak is precisely what is wrong with modern writing, just take the average comment section or article, people are doing this in spades and its all forgettable trash. Something like the Deadpool movies are a prime example of this phallacy, those films are all done in an obnoxious post modernism style where all the characters are insufferably self aware and casually speak as they would in real life. Now the films may be somewhat entertaining, but is anyone on earth truly impressed with the writing? Now take a film like Menk where the writing is impeccable and everyone is talking formally, making speeches, remarks they never would in real life, and you see a very high quality production. This is good advice if you want to write for a flaky modern sitcom/drama or something but not for really good work.
He advised writing like you speak in order to be aware of the difference between this and writing in the narrative style. he said that people should experiment between the two. Also, Free Indirect Discourse weaves together both.