The Audience Will Forget Your Plot But Not Your Characters - Jack Grapes
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Jack Grapes is an award-winning poet, playwright, actor, teacher, and the editor and publisher of ONTHEBUS, one of the top literary journals in the country. He has won several publishing grants and Fellowships in Literature from the National Endowment for the Arts. He's also received nine Artist-in- Residence Grants from the California Arts Council to teach writing in various schools throughout Los Angeles. He is the author of 13 books of poetry, including TREES, COFFEE, AND THE EYES OF DEER, and BREAKING DOWN THE SURFACE OF THE WORLD. A spoken-word CD, Pretend, was recently issued by DePaul University. He is also author of a chapbook of poems and paintings titled AND THE RUNNING FORM, NAKED, BLAKE. His most recent publication is LUCKY FINDS, a boxed set of 50 cards that extend and parody the dynamic artistic productions of high-modernist poets such as Ezra Pound and Charles Olson. For more information on Jack's classes, please visit: jackgrapes.com/classesgeneral...
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#writing #screenwriting #books
"Oh interesting" she said realizing he invades the privacy of all his friends 😂
He comes into your house to judge you, and you'll only realize years later when a certain character is too relatable for comfort 😭
@@glanni I'm not sure the person would recognize that the medicine cabinet or fridge was their inspiration unless it was very specific
@@deborahrose8621 I agree, but I also think that being sorta specific is the point of his excersise. If I read a book by an author I knew personally well enough to invite them into my house, and there was a character that had half a dozen of half-full bottles of bodywash collecting dust on the rim of their bath tub, I'd know what took them so long when they "used the bathroom".
Lool
I'm guilty also🤫
It resonates with what he's saying because I remember the movie Captain America Civil War, where Tony Stark says, "Who's leaving seeds in the sink?" something like that... and he said, "I feel like I'm living with a biker gang." To paraphrase.. It was a small line of dialogue, but for me, I remember it and it always stood out. I thought it was powerful. Because it informed me that they're people. They live with each other. Their living arrangement is casual, and they get on each other's nerves. It made me feel like this is like a family. or roommates. It was powerful. It made me think of the Avengers in a different way. This is a lot like what Jack Grapes is talking about!
I remember the arguments the Avengers have more than any other part of the movie. Not because the movie was uninteresting or anything, but because you see them more when they are expressing themselves. The scene with the staff in the first Avengers, that scene in Civil War and also when Tony is trying to get Steve to sign, frail Tony berating Steve at the beginning of Endgame, and my personal favorite, Strange yelling at Christine after his accident
@@JustKrin the age of ultron party scene?
I think you're over analyzing a stupid capeshit movie made for manchilds, buddy.
@@cuentaparadeciridioteces3648 While the movies have their flaws, this is a good example he's pointed out. It adds a tiny bit of depth to the movies when they do that, even if they're not to your personal taste. I hate Big Bang Theory for example, but the Christmas episode they did where they had to "save Santa from the dungeon" really twisted my perception of Sheldon's character when he gave his speech to Santa (I won't spoil it, bc I'd suggest you watch it if you haven't.) Despite the fact that I hate that show at the best of times, it was a nice moment that I still remember.
@@cuentaparadeciridioteces3648 "They have a cave troll."
Remind me never to let Jack into my kitchen.
my fridge is boring...put away all the stuff: only a little bear a mini violin and a Venecian mask for Vivaldi
Seriously though
😂😂😂
As a writer, being observative about thing around you is your greatest tool.
Facts facts facts. I’m an artiste in Jamaica
This is why internet fandoms love fanfiction so much. We have more of the characters by people who also mainly care about the characters. I'm at a point in my life where I don't want to read anything but fanfiction.
i'll be sure to tell tolstoy.
I have to agree. I read fanfic more than consume the main materials cause fanfic has plot that actually cares about the characters
@@arcaean155 Depends how well they're written.
@@arcaean155 the problem begins when they only care about a specific group of characters and start ignoring/bashing on the rest
@@quivygm I agree with this but could you maybe give an example. I’m having trouble visualising one
Characters with goals/motivation are what drives the story.
My dad was watching some movie when I was a kid. No idea what it was about, I was probably too busy playing my Gameboy. I just remember a few people walking around in the forest. But something that had stuck with me for my whole life was a scene where one guy was complaining that his back hurt. Another guy told him an old cure is find a round rock and spit on it, so off he goes. A third person in the scene was incredulous about the trick, and the guy replies something to the effect of "looking for the rock will distract him from his back pain, then by the time he leans over to spit on it, he'll have forgotten completely." This one scene might have even planted the seeds of my interest in human psychology today. Just goes to show how effective and memorable these little scenes of characterization are.
This helps me think of every scene as a chance to build character
The Edge (1997). I think Anthony Hopkins may have lied and said it is a Native American cure to add some faith to the placebo.
There must be balance, Character Plot and Story are equally important. Fail at any of these and you get Rise of the Skywalker.
I would say the new trilogy as a whole. The characters had potential but were wasted and the story/plot was just a rehash of the originals.
This needs more likes.
Usual suspects is kind of a good example
Aren't plot and story the same?
😂😂😂
When he was talking about how everyone eats a particular way, I started thinking about how I eat my meals one thing at a time. I won't take a bite of peas, and then a bite of steak, I've gotta finish one before I get to the other, and I always seem to choose the vegetables first. There's no real reason or intention for it, I just do it.
Meanwhile I'm shoveling a massive load of food into my mouth with no care whatsoever before I proceed to smack it around like an ungodly loud jackhammer.
I used to do this until I realized that flavor comes from combing things. Now I notice that my Kung pao chicken tastes better when it’s mixed with fried rice. They combine beautifully. Or another simple example: breakfast plate with eggs and strips of bacon. Eating both at the same time makes both more delicious. You also start to notice that some foods don’t combine as well together and it’s better to eat them separately. But it’s good to try and discover new flavors. I’m a very picky person but since I’m combining my favorite foods, I’m not afraid that I will hate the flavor.
for me it's not about the order, the way I do it is that all of the different types of food in my plate must be finished at the same time.
I'm kinda the opposite of this, I make sure to keep the same ratio of every component of the meal until I finish it, so I always have maximum variety throughout the whole meal.
I usually do it the exact same way
this is what fanfiction is all about!! fanfic authors and readers are those who stayed for the characters and wish to see more of them beyond what the canon showed
This is funny Because I read the fanfictions for the different events and stories not necessarily the characters themselves. I take interest in the world building aspect of a story turned fanfic more than reading about how someone eats their eggs.
Honestly I dislike fan fiction but to each their own.
Or for people who loved the characters but disliked what the writers did with them. Several times I've been invested in a character only to have them ruined by bad writing. Fanfiction can be a great way for fans to 'fix' this and tell the kind of story they wanted to see.
@@katemara667 yesss, somehow show writers manage to forget the personalities and developments of the characters they themselves wrote like HOW
Fanfiction is just every unnecessary sequel / re-make but with lower budget. Change my mind.
You could also argue that plot creates the character because it forces them to take a stand and reveal their true character. Isn't it usually an outside force that sets the movie in motion? The character is usually forced into circumstances that they need to battle and change. Even this century's most plotless movie Nomadland is set into motion by an outside force - the tiniest fraction of a plot that this movie has.
Stephen King says something like, "take interesting people and put them in difficult situations then see what happens."
I think that the point he is making is that the character makes the plot happen.
He actually uses "plot" as "the presentation of the story" It is the story that forces characters to take a stand and reveal their true character, not the plot
@@jerryjellyshow8193Story is what happens to the character not the other way around. I would argue that plot is what forces characters to take a stand. It's the situation they find themselves in that affects their character. A plot is constructed in such a way that it presents itself with the optimal scenarios/scenes/curcumstances for the filmmakers to reveal the character and show what kind of person they are.
Story: What happens to yours characters, and the themes, meanings and feelings we experience from this. Plot: How your story is told. The pacing, the structure, the choices regarding its presentation that keep people engaged with your tale. That's how I see it anyway.
"Ask any writer on the street and ask them what's most important, they'll say character." Unless you work for Hollywood, Disney, mainstream comics, or Netflix.
Yeah. To a lot of people, the three most important elements are loud noises, property damage, and loss of life. Very few car chases offer anything you've never seen before, so, to me, three minutes of car chases is the most boring part of the movie.
@@AmericanActionReport As a corollary to that -- the best car chase scenes, to my mind, are ones where the camera focuses on the actors in the cars, and their reactions to events, or even better, to other passengers in the car. Dialog does a lot to help to make chase scenes more memorable. IMO
@@eraz0rhead Great point. A frantic scene is especially engaging if the characters are as confused and frantic as the action. "No, your other left," is cliché, but we can all identify with it. That's what it's all about; the audience BECOMES the characters.
They are literally character movies. 🤣
If it's Netflix the most important thing is that the characters are gay.
This channel has actually got me started writing after thinking about it for a few years. I'll be sure to mention you in my acceptance speech after my first book get turned into a billion dollar movie.
Nice quoxifiable goal! I wish you the best man, no sarcasm, only way to succeed is to shoot for the fucking stars.
This is absolutely fantastic instruction; incredibly clear. More and more, from these "lectures" from all these Professors, I get clarity about an almost mystical process of creating and generating STORY. Thank you so for making these talks available. It's like having a personal graduate seminar.
I have to add: the subject of the roller skate key made me think of Melanie's song "Brand New Key" about the same. Just saying.
@@danieljackson654 Exactly because the character rode her skates to stalk some guy! Would we be interested in some random chick stalking a guy but a cutesy chick with roller skates and a keen sense of adventure was another story
@@danieljackson654 I had this playing in my head as he was leading up to the skate key image. 🎶Oh I've got a brand new pair of roller skate you've got a brand new key 🎶 🛼
Does anyone remember flipping someone a quarter and saying go call somebody who gives a damn?! We can’t do that anymore.
I remember Scrooge McDuck in the 1987 DuckTales series answering a phone and saying, “It’s your dime. SPEAK.” He can’t do that in the 2017 series…
I feel what he is talking about is true most of the time. I can think of a few media’s (gaming, film, books) where I remember the stories and love the stories more than the characters.
He did say that story is different than plot right at the start of the interview. That said, I always thought story and plot were the same thing. But it seems plot is how the story is executed? Personally, I think story is the most important element. You can tell the same story differently if you inject different characters.
@@maxwellsmartarse2916 think of the plot as the ingredients while the story is the finished dish. In a plot you have a general idea of what goes on while in a story those elements mix together and are used to form the narrative. Don’t worry it’s pretty easy to be confused, I was confused for years until i myself started taking writing classes.
@@Sci-Fi_Freak_YT Sounds like he describes it in the opposite manner. The story is the chronological events, the ingredients. The plot is the arrangement of those 'ingredients' into something emotionally impactful to the characters
Final destination is one of these movies I liked for its concept and story, but I couldn't care less about the characters.
@@TheNonstopTry yeah I can see that. I think it can also be applied to other movies like The Thing. Not that the characters are bad (they are great) I just found myself loving the plot and premise more than the characters themselves.
I knew a person who had such a messy car that I would always think "If we get into and accident, I wonder what random object in the car would hit me first". Funny how their quirks quickly become a story in your own mind.
I love when my characters tell me what they want and who they are and write themselves.
I agree. I write character driven stories, film, series, books. I am not motivated by the idea of plot driven or theme driven stories. As in ANYONE/any character could've walked that path. Instead, I love writing storylines where we see it was THAT particular character's path. Regardless to whether others could've made the decision to walk a certain path.
And that is why details are important~you need to vicariously reside in that character and details matter even if the character is unaware of them when they are revealed ~ sometimes it explains previous or current behaviour and sometimes those details are forshadowing
@@deborahrose8621 Great point
I have said this for years. In both movies and books if I can find a way to connect to the main character, the I can't connect with the book or movie. And he's right, the rest doesn't matter as much.
It's not the story that makes the characters memorable it's strong characters that make the story memorable and leave the audience with the emotional impact!
Not true although attack on titan has good characters I would argue it's plot outshines it's characters and it has the best plot I've seen in fiction.
"If your story doesn’t have a character that people can relate to, your story isn’t going to be enough. And the way that you get people to relate to your character is through the AUTHENTIC VOICE." Boom! That's all we need to know. Spot on Jack!
In some films the characters and the plot are so interwoven that they both become equally memorable. Like beauty and the beast.
The eight deadliest words any storyteller can hear: "I don't care what happens to these people".
When no personable writers focus too much on plot and themes and function of stuff details like powers or mechanics rather than interesting relatable character dynamics feelings and bonds...that stuff matters more than the plot....
The book for Forrest Gump doesn't have the Jenny character in it. Just try to imagine that movie without the Forrest and Jenny dynamic.
My favorite "adaptation" movies are the one that change so much but are so good you basically have like two universes for the price of one. Forrest Gump, Apocalypse Now, Fight Club, Scarface, A History of Violence and many superhero movies
You know, funny because I was thi king about Forrest Gump. Basically the whole point is the character. Without Forrest being like he is, the plot wouldn't even be able to move forward because of he being so transported (don't want to use the word passive because is not what he is) by it.
The book was WAY better than the movie. Nonstop laughs!
I love his detail on how people eat their eggs sunny side up. He's so right the way a character organize their space tells you alot.
Coincidentally I just recently saw "Tenet" which is a really tightly written story with tons of action and complex concepts BUT the main character is literally credited as "protagonist" and is rather bland. In another analysis someone theorized that Nolan is such a great director, you can safely assume he does everything on purpose. Which led to the conclusion that he might have experimented with the question: Can you compensate for missing "character" with hyper polished writing and really compact storyprogression etc? turns out, not really The movie is very watchable but in the end it feels predictably...distanced, because of the lack of character in it.
the protagonist ordered his hot sauce an hour ago
yes, nolan, everything is deliberate
It goes both ways for only focusing on character.
@@BrandonNinja Not really. Coming of age stories still a thing, and most of this type of this story doesnt have a plot.
It's interesting listening to him talking about eating eggs. I am one of those people who cut around the yoke and eat it last in one bite. The reason I do this is actually the same reason he mixes the egg all together... because I find the yoke gross, so I don't want it spilling on my plate or touching anything else
Great characters will write the script themselves.
sounds like bro just goes thru peoples shit every time he pull up somewhere 😂
I loved the skate key example. I think the skate key itself becomes a kind of character, an elemental force.
The most important thing isn't character. It is the font you use when typing. Comic sans will keep them reading to the end!
This is exactly why Tenet fell flat for me. Couldn't care about any one character presented
me too
I think, and others have said it too, Tenet almost qualifies as an experimental film in the sense it's completely technical, it's filled with non-characters.
Agreed.
2001 A Space Oddessy throws all this out of the window
Exactly my feelings on it too! My brother said I simply wasn't paying attention, but honestly I couldn't pay attention to it if I wanted to. It was in complete contrast with my experience with Inception, which had my glued to the screen.
I remember reading the novel House of Sand and Fog (which was made into a great movie) and the book mentioned that one of the characters always toasted his glass lower than everyone else's because it was a sign of respect, and toasting higher than everyone means you value yourself over others. Not only do I remember that to this day, but I _do that_ now.
This is true in Korean society
Viewers remember characters the same way when a studio promotes a movie, it's the actors who interview with the media, appear on the late night talk shows, Comic-Con panels, etc. They get all the attention even though there's a whole team of creative talent working behind the camera including the screenwriter who you shouldn't ignore. The mind just thinks in terms of people, so that's what viewers gravitate to, not realizing that everything else is just as important.
When I hear that the Next film is a scorcese I'm interested but when I hear that it's Starring DiCaprio and Deniro I'm definitely going to watch it.
I always find it fun when I let my characters lose on a situation just to see where they take the story. I can certainly relate to the advice of watching people for developing characters.
That payphone anecdote at the end reminds me of something else. When AIDS became a big scare in the mid-80s, an urban legend crept up that people were sticking infected needles in the payphone change slots just to be mean and infect people deliberately. The practice of digging one's finger into that slot was so ingrained into our lives that it sounded perfectly feasible (at least to me, as a dumb kid).
He's correct about this and if we all think about it we know it. Very few people can ever remember the plots in a Seinfeld episode (which, arguably didn't even exist) but they can still envision the petty walk of George, Seinfeld's straight face, Elaine swatting at him, Kramer swishing in. Few can remember the plot to Star Wars (77) but everyone remembers boyish Luke, swashbuckling smartass Han Solo, feisty Leia and weirdly they remember a 'robot cyborg' Darth Vader. What was the plot? (film nerds probably do, actually the massive broad public could never recall the plot in any detail).
THIS WAS SO GOOD. I feel like I was just in a masters-level class for characterization and storytelling, holy smokes. High quality content!
Everyone has their thing, and what they do, and how they do it. I can really relate to Jack Grapes methods. Film Courage gives you so many perspectives for you to choose your lane. Keep them coming!!!!
What if one of your character's parents suddenly decide to go to Del Boca Vista? Very good interview with Jack. I agree. I have seen movies where I didn't care about the characters. Nothing interesting about them. No development. No character arcs. Just station to station writing or film making which was more like an amusement ride and you want to get off before it is over. When I was young, I would go to pay phones and other coin operated machines and check the coin return. Found a few coins that way. Bought Wacky Packages, model airplanes and ships. We also collected the glass pop bottles and turned them in for money. Built a navy and an air force that way. We also bought a lot of Comic Books. What dies this tell people about my character? This channel is awesome.
Your The Best, JACK GRAPES, YOUR THE BEST!!! I'm Going To Find One Of Your Classes, Too Learn. More. of The Great Things You Know !!!
The little things. I like that. Very true. The smallest, tiniest little thing can say so much about a person, and be remembered more than anything
Another thing that is also important about characters (especially the protagonist) is to make them relatable for people.
Jack has a cute smile. I love his description of how people live. I recently started sharing again and forgot how weird people live. In the old days, I used to check people's record collection that's all I needed to know.
Love the women who post these questions, it’s soo soothing to hear her…!!!!
Some of the best advice for writers I have ever seen. Been people watching at cafes and bus stops and malls and on trains, etc for years.
What are the best ways to develop a character?
Base them off people that you have known before in your life....or base them off certain actors that you have seen in movies before and try to put it together like that.
Adversity
@@Unknown90010 Historical figures also serve as a good basis for a character.
@@uriahl2331 I agree with you 💯 very good point
Using real life situations.
I like what Hemingway said about creating a novel. "It's like an iceberg. Nine tenths if it is underwater." You don't see it but you feel it. All those little details the writer should know about a character aren't necessarily going to be used in the prose but the perspicacious reader will feel those tiny details in his soul. People try to imitate Hemingway but it's not authentic because they don't do the editing it takes to get it perfect, he said as he stroked the top of the cat's head gently palming her face.
When I was a kid, I would take a hard shell taco and dump the contents onto the paper wrap, then scoop it up with broken bits of shell (and eat) until it was completely gone. I can remember doing that when I was 6, and a friend's mom was completely shocked, almost appalled, but I cleaned it up by eating it so quickly that she dropped her concern altogether. I ate the second taco the same way.
Lmao bro eating it like nachos 😭
This makes me think of the Matt Damon movie called The informant. I don't remember anything else that happened in that movie but what I do remember is his monologue about polar bears. That was such a really cool insight to the character and how he thinks and it had no bearing to anything that was going on in the movie.
Its a great conversation, very structured, like most hollywood films that care about the content and not so much about the how is presented.. Characters can be developed by how the film is shot and edited without necessarily dialogue, like a character from a book, which is their base.
This is awesome! I actually feel like I was in a film class with one of the student's favourite professors
Fantastic, used to hang out in cafes and bars watching people whilst writing and do the same, made two features so far and another working its way through my head.
Yes, this is so helpful! Of course, all these videos are all gems!
He’s my favourite professional of all you’ve interviewed. I build characters like that as an actor and as a writer.
Definitely something I needed to watch. I've been meaning to write something again, but haven't because I don't know what the plot is. I think going about it this way and just delving into the character's life and see where that takes me is the way to go. And while I'm all for small character details in how they enrich the character and story, I do think it's important not too add too much. T÷ last thing you want is to get attached to these small details and let them dictate the story whenever you decide to go another directions which might contradict almost superfluous detail. In any case. Great video!
GENIUS !!! Thank you !! 😘❤
I love this series!
This was amazing. Learned a lot in 15 mins. Thank you
Wow, it all makes sense. Every inspiring writer should listen to this.
I LEARNED A LOT! THANK YOU!
another Brilliant Video he always makes great points in an interesting way
It depends on what drives the narrative. If it is character-driven, then we should remember the characters more. If it is story-driven, we remember the conflict more. An example of the latter is the film Volcano. For the life of me, I don't remember the characters, but I remember most of the major events which are the various stages of the volcano about to erupt. Another example is Scott Sigler's story Earthcore. We should still, however, try to make interesting characters that fit into the setting and aesthetics of the story. We don't have to know every single thing about these characters, but they should make sense for the world in which they live. Let a soldier be disciplined. Let a rogue be a rogue. Let a princess fit with the political circumstances of their family. Their actions should fit what we know about their background.
Characters are like people, believe it or not.
like boa hancock from one piece stampede and indiana jones. :)
Shout out to the interviwer. too. Very good questions and great listener.
Totally agree.
This is fascinating. Feel like I could talk all day long about writing with Mr. Grapes.
The guy he says ate the egg white without ever touching the yolk till the very end, when he scooped it with the fork, intact, into his mouth? If I'd known he was looking at me I would have said, 'hello.'
That was a really good one. Thanks!!
This guy is a fascinating interview.
The Goat Mr Grapes Appreciate it, On My Soul
EXCELLENT information! Thank you!
Oooohhh i like this guy! how on earth is this the first time i'm seeing him? he's good, in fact a memory search of all the great films i.e Shawshank, had that voice tying you directly to the character
I feel like this guy could be a writer *and* a psychologist lol! I hadnt truly noticed how the little things are a mirror on how the characters are :0 Awesome video!
This is the best explanation I’ve heard about writing ong
Happy! nailed this
This is very true. Usually, the story is mostly a one and done thing, so it’s important that you have great characters so that there’s an opportunity to carry them onto the sequel story you have, kinda like what the MCU is doing and/or especially a TV show you’re making. The plot is there to make you like or hate the characters more, depending on the role. It’s a way to follow the characters and make them stick with you more.
It's the little things that reflect on the character's persona
i am absolutely liking jack's views
Great teacher ❤❤
this is a revelation that came to me while writing my first hour of a series... the character needs to make an emotional impact, contain a mystery that the audience wants to uncover, or a fascinating relationship between two intriguing characters ... i was so plot focused because my story is historical with many plot lines already laid in reality but in the end, the characters' own qualities is more important a million littl e story lines
What he told, would help me while writing something. It will be stored in my subconscious. Thanks ❤️
This was a great video to think about while I cleaned and sorted my room
Wow.. So interesting and informative. Thank you
Great interview about noticing the small stuff to create more interesting characters.
Even if I don't remember the suggestions he made, I'll always remember the fact that he goes in his friends medicine cabinets.
when I started writing my series which is still in progress because it became huge and bigger than I expected. it felt plain like just some characters and events, I couldn't really feel like its worth it. I am also self-learning so I had no idea what am I doing and who's best to get real advice from and each has a different opinion and what works for them, then I started to use logic character is a must I should focus on characters, I did it in a fun way I allowed my close friends to talk to them, this way I started to discover each one and how they should talk and feel. after that the events changed drastically and made more sense and opened up a whole bigger world than I imagined.
This is the best channel on the planet 🔥
Love this. Very interesting
they dont make them like Jack Grapes anymore...you sir are the real deal....!!!
This video is spitting out facts. Listing off the main issues I have with most tv shows, movies, anime’s etc.
Came back for the third time to listen to this. Great points. I can't think of any stories where I've said to myself 'That plot was great, but I didn't care about the characters.' But many times I've thought 'Those characters are great. I wish they'd been given a better story.'
This is so right. When it comes to character versus plot, even those who haven't watched a certain movie, remembers the character! Like James Bond.
The interview has such a nice voice
I agree.
Waoo that is in depth for character writing
On the other hand, without plot, the audience will forget your characters and probably not be able to make it through your script. In a well written story, character and plot are indistinguishable because every major plot point is determined by the action that the protagonist chooses to take and the action that the protagonist chooses to take is what determines their character
I am a film writer and I can assure you what Jack said is absolutely correct!
Loved this guy.
New video with Jack coming tonight at 5pm PST.
I read books and I realize I like the ones that are character based the most. I now know, thanks to this video that is the way it should be.