You're Using the Wrong Screwdriver For Electrical
I bought and tested every type of driver for electrical work and what I discovered was totally surprising to me. WIth all of the options out there, one screwdriver type rose to the top. #diy #electrical #homeimprovement
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@LRN2DIY The reason why the WIHA SL/PH slips is the same why a PH slips in a PZ head: you are using a SL/PH driver in a SL/PZ screw! Yes, if you look closer at your screws, they have thin diagonal lines between the 4 cross slots, indicating pozidrive instead of philips! And yes, besides the older standard SL/PH (which comes in sizes SL/PH1 and SL/PH2) there are also SL/PZ1 and SL/PZ2 which are combinations of slotted and pozidrive. These will fit into your screws as if they were made for them (which in fact they are ;)). Not only Wiha makes them, also Wera, Knipex, Proxxon, Toolcraft, PB Swiss and others. Like PZ is a step forward from PH (but you still find PH screws), some old electric contact screws are SL/PH while most of them are really SL/PZ -- and of course you have to use the correct size! These btw are also called "plus-minus" (or "plusminus") and "xeno" in literature. Also note that many electric appliances give you the exact Torque you have to use if the screws actually make contact with hot wires (and are not just case screws), which is a safety feature to avoid electrical fires! That's why WIHA also offeres special handles with adjustable torque.
I heard that the PH is meant to slip for overtorque protection.
One type you didn't mention is JIS heads... Similar advantages to pozidrive but you don't have the draw back of a pozydrive head not working well in a phillps screw. JIS drivers work better than Phillips drivers in Phillips heads.
@@ryanokeefe12 I heard the opposite and find it hard to believe that mixing JIS/PH would beat PH/PH. While JIS is said to be better if screw and driver are the same, mixing should be bad, since JIS and PH differ in their tip angles (only), right?
@@stefanpeterwolf7458 PH are designed to cam out. JIS are designed to stay in place so that the desired torque can be achieved. It's not just the tip angles. There is no inner chamfer at the root of the "cross" on JIS which is the main contributor to the inherent cam out design of the PH. The JIS basically doesn't engage with any of the forms within the screw head that work with the driver to make it want to cam out. I can't link on youtube, but plenty of info on the googles that runs through this. I was in the same boat as you.. PH with PH makes sense. JIS with JIS makes sense. I assumed it would be like trying to use PH/PZ or PZ/PH but I bought a set and it has the same type 'secure' feeling that a robertson driver has.
@@ryanokeefe12 Thanks very much, this means I will probably invest in a JIS set , just to be equipped when I come across a stubborn PH screw. In fact those are easy to scuff on the first unsuccessful unscrewing attempt and using a JIS sounds as if they are a nice emergency solution. Until now I was ultra obsessed with using the EXACT driver size for a given PH screw. Using even only 1 size over or under is calling for problems... That (correct size) and full pressure against the screw is a must for PH.
The reason, why the Wiha SL/PH driver slipped is: You used it on the wrong screw! The screw is clearly a combination of slotted and POZIDRIVE (as indicated by the acute lines in the screw head). There is also a combination driver SL/PZ for those screws.
YEP!
I don't saw Pozidriv Screws tighten, please tell me in which part of video. thanks.
@@dalejandro.perillait was at 11.30 - 11.35 mark of the clip (the one with the long “Nooooooo” … btw I’ve been using SL/PH2 for the past year as most of the heads here are SL/PH2 … definitely better than SL or PH2 for these type of screw heads …. yup, correct tool for the job in hand … sure I’ve gotten away with just about anything but those SL/PH2 is my one to go for SL/PH2 heads … no more worn screwheads …
@@dalejandro.perilla Also 11:53 and 12:12 you can see, that these are PZ and not PH.
My latest outlets had a different marking. Dots. That makes them ISO 8764, derived from the older JIS B 1012. For screws, they'd be marked with either PZ or PH. The outlets also accept Robertson #1. For those unfamiliar, Phillips was designed to cam out on excessive torque and that's wanted in some purposes, where excessive torque could damage the object(s) being fastened. Pozidriv was designed to not cam out with high torque, as was the JIS and ISO variants. As I don't personally own the JIS or ISO flavors, Robertson it is, backup Pozidriv.
For unlocked macro shots, post processing image stabilization is a MUST.
I am an electrician and I love the Robertson or square drive. Works every time no slips or strips.
“Works every time “ is bang on when describing using Robertson. No camming-out, no slippage, Robertson works. Also, Robertson holds the screw in place enabling one-handed work. Whether doing electrical, woodworking, or DYI Robertson works and saves time.
I've seen so many stripped out square drive screws. I guess if you are just installing and don't have to think about future maintenance of it, a square drive is ok. But if you have to go back and take wires loose for maintenance, it can be just another annoyance.
@@robertlawrence9000 square drive is not Robertson. They are different and likely the reason for stripping.
Paul in Canada here. You forgot two of the key advantages of our Robertson. The #2 is red and the #1 is green. Sometimes it’s just part of the handle that’s coloured but usually the entire handle is red or green - and with true Robertson hex bits, the entire bit is painted red or green. When reaching in your belt pouch you don’t have to look at the tip. Also the great thing with the tapered Robertson tip and quality screws (not cheap Chinese junk) they jam onto the end of the tip and stay there while working at any angle for deck building etc. Fabulous!
I've never seen color coding on any of my robertson bits, not even the multi-bit screwdriver I purchased in Lethbridge.
@@Sylvan_dB "bits" are all purpose usage. Your mother or sister usually have these multi tools. All Robertson tools (including most hex shank Robertson bits are color coded, #2 red used 80% of the time. #1 green used 40% of the time (#2 used more often by electricians). #3 black used 30% of the time (again, electricians more often) #0 yellow used for small precise work. #4 brown rarely used and #00 orange known in computer world.
@@palco22 if you say so. I have many thousands of dollars of tools and none color coded as you describe. I have seen sizes color coded in some Harbor Freight sets, but no Robertson in those. And FYI bits are commonly used in torque measuring drivers. I do not buy single size torque drivers, and correct torque is essential so I use bits. They also work well in impact drivers for disassembly.
@@Sylvan_dB I prefer avoiding "bits' (those tiny bits that require a hex shank tool) I use dedicated tools for all work whether it's wood working, mechanical or electrical. In Canada we don't have Harbor Freight and apparently they don't ship to Canada. We have Princess Auto which would be a similar outfit. A good tool makes for good work but what ever works for you go for it. Have a great day and a great 2023 !
@@palco22 sems to be a Canada vs US user expierience
Started using Robertsons a few years back on my DYI projects and will NEVER go back. Love them!
oh yeah, I prefer them to even torx, the screw sticks to your screwdriver just enough whereas you often have to fight torx and the tip is stronger and screws easier to clean with something pointy.
Here in Denmark, we dont use philips or flatheads anymore and havent done for many years. We use torx20 for normal screws and torx10 for electric stuff. Try em out, its amazing. 👌😊
Torx bits/screwheads are the absolute best ! It Can be slotted every 60 degrees, never cams out, tons of torque and it can substitute hex/umbraco.
Even someone just hanging up a painting or something? Professionals here in the Netherlands have gotten used to Torx by now for some applications (deck screws etc), but most DIY'ers definitely have not. Philips/Pozidriv still rules, as do hex bits for bolts.
@@TheLukasDirector Yep, proffesionals and DIY'ers. 90% of all screws in shops are Torx. :)
Star (=Torx) screw & driver systems are definitely better than all of the preceding, however they are not generally available in electrical work. Better for wood & carpentry. Use stainless steel screws for any exterior work, not coated "deck screws" (junk).
They don't use these in the US? Thought it was strange that he didn't mention them. I also like them best. although I remember reading some people hating them for some reason, or maybe it was just Americans hating them cause they don't have any screwdrivers for them.
Klein 11in1 with 32752 ECX double bit is my fav for electrical work. Does pretty much everything in one driver.
You should partner with Project Farm channel to test all these tip options to find out which one reigns supreme
Made in Canada,, guaranteed not not cam out - were gonna test that!
@@AltimaNEOwell said!!
Project farm did this years ago lol. He’s way ahead of the game
Was Robertson the winner?
@@majist0 yes, it was” and with the Robertson 60% of the time it worked every time!”
As an electrician there is one bit you did not mention. Its from rack-a-tiers. A Robertson square bit with wing tips similar to the ECX with smaller wings. Works great for some breakers, ground/neutral bar and ground screws
They need to stop making combination head screws.
@@nooneyouknowhere6148 Should All Be Torx!
@@kevinlsims7330 torx is good.
@@kevinlsims7330 Agree. Torx is the best
🇨🇦Robertson🇨🇦
Retired general contractor here (4 years ago) who also did all his own plumbing and electrical and I made it all the way to the end of your video in hopes you would find the square drive to be the best. Hooray for that. I settled on the square drive as my preferred tip for interior electrical, hands down the fastest and most useful. It was even better when Milwaukee came out with those multi-tip screwdrivers that had slotted and Phillips along with square drive. If I felt I needed a little more torque on a screw it was a quick change out to tighten down a little more with the slotted head.
Robertson is the best choice. I've built decks for friends using Robertson screws. I built my back yard shed using only Robertson screws. Now if the fastener manufactures would properly heat treat their screws I would never see a stripped head again!
I've used a lot of Robertson also. Way better than Phillips but definitely a little worse than torx. Took about 6 robertson bits to unscrew / rescrew a whole deck because the bits start getting rounded and stripping.
@@gorkyd7912 I agree - Torx are the best alternative for almost every case. In special cases it's XZN, but they are more sensitive to corrosion, so it's mostly for cylinder heads on cars and similar applications. Around where I live the Robertson is so rare that it could take a week to find a new tool - or screws using it.
I agree with the other posts that Torx is great. For a while years back our local lumber yard was big on square drive Robertson's. They were better then galvi Philips but I had a terrible time with them caming out. Now I use Torx exclusively.
Yeah torx is better than Robertson for construction and woodworking. Robertson is still better than anything else besides torx though.
Robinson or Phillips for electrical. For decks, there's nothing better than Torx.
When I do diy, I a lot of times will just grab a slotted because it will do the cover, the outlett screws, and the wire terminals. Even though I have access to ECX bits in my hand, it's easier a lot of times to just have one tool for a quick job.
The slotted size of the cover is smaller than that of the terminals.
i use a philips until i need the torque
That’s what I’m saying, I get it there are better options but I would have to be doing a lot of electrical work to feel like I could actually benefit by caring about the driver I pick. I just haven’t had any significant issues using whatever I had handiest, if it was other work besides electrical I’d be thinking about it more
Roberson tip won my heart years ago with electrical and appliances. I use a Klein 11-in1 which has everything you need including both Roberson tips
Thank you this is by far the most in depth video about the crazy screws in electrical nowadays. I really appreciate the research.
i am Australian and work in electronics. We only use PosiDriv (type 1A or Z ) in our products but see Philips and never slotted on new things. We also have a Suzuki SMD machine so I have a set of JIS drivers as well. JIS B1012, uses a strict cross unlike the Phillips (cross recess type 1) which has rounds between each axis. It is very important to use the right size and style. I have only rarely seen Robertson heads here except in roofing studs but I like the idea of them.
Does the stamped dot on the screw at 2:56 indicate a JIS screw?
@@dbeierl Yes, I think so too!
Two things: I tested a pre-set torque tool 4 n-m with a Robertson bit, on an older circuit breaker rated to that torque, and the hole rounded out before the tool hit the spec. What the issues with all drivers is, is that the smaller the diameter of the effective contact area making the force transfer, the greater the likelihood of stripping the hole/face area, or end of the tool fins. Robertsons work great in hardened wood screws, withstanding power impact driving; torquing in soft metal breaker screws not so much. Torque is leverage; too much, and something gives - heads on nuts shear off, bits cam out, or strip the slots. You're overthinking the "negatives" of the ECX - the center is mostly for position and alignment; little actual force is transferred in that very small radius center. In addition, the two side fins closely mesh with the Robertson hole, but the main twisting force is applied to the longer walls of the main slot. Pozidrives popular in lumber might be a good fit for electrical, but they don't quite match the combo slot/Robertson heads as they've evolved. I suspect the Wiha bits ride out, precisely because the tapered aspect of the Phillips fins are so near the center. Again, you went in search of a solution to a perceived "problem" with your ECX bits that had not actually come up. Perhaps the tool designers knew what they were doing? You convinced me that overall the ECX may be better where it fits; torquing will be the test. Of course the bigger Robertsons are about all that work on ground bars, as the slot is not diagonal at all, so ECX might work, but not ideal.
After I lost my insulated ECX driver, I got an insulated Wiha Phillips/flat driver. Works well enough. I also have a Wiha bit holding handle that I use a Klein combination bit
I actually have that multi double sided Klein screwdriver. I bring the flat/Philips and #1/#2 bit and it saves so much space in the tool bag for house calls. I really do like the insulated ECX though for panel work but that’s just my opinion.
I also use the Klein Robertson combo tool and I love it! I had a lot of home electrical work to do last year and went out and bought some good Klein tools as an incentive to get the job done. So happy I did.
Finally someone in the USA 🇺🇸 admits that the Canadian 🇨🇦 Robertson is the best. Don’t forget the #1 is for #6 screws and the #2 is for #8 screws. Never could figure out why automobile manufacturers never used Robertson instead of mostly Phillips in their cars.
I recall reading that Henry Ford started to use Robertsons bur then for some reason switched to Phillips. Most likely it was either not being able to the price he wanted on the Robertsons or the Phillips were cheaper.
@@janderson8401 I believe Ford tried to buy the Robertson patent, but he wouldn't sell... So Ford said... MMM k.. and flooded the world with Philips
@@robbarmstrong1342 that sounds right. I couldn't remember if Ford was trying to buy train cars of screws, a license to manufacture them himself or the entire patent. Given the vertical monopoly system that Ford tried to create, and his fight over the Selden patent, getting ownership of the patent makes sense.
Robertson pushed US manufacturers too hard in seeking to license his drive. They finally told him forget it and we are stuck with less effective drivers.
The History Guy answered this in detail. kzhead.info/sun/hZGmdNWDq5usqIE/bejne.html&ab_channel=TheHistoryGuy%3AHistoryDeservestoBeRemembered
I have been using the Robertson predominately for several years now. I have the Klien with a flip-over #1 and #2 blade in it. I also do woodworking as a hobby and use nothing but Robertson screws. And like you, if the slotted driver went away completely I would be happy with that. Also, there is the Pozi drive that most relays and contactors use for wire connection. I use that on all my control panel work.
You don't have to deal with stripped square drive screws doing maintenance? I've had a lot to deal with before. They are ok to use a couple of times but the drive quickly begins to be loose in the screw head.
@@robertlawrence9000 Not really. I rarely have a problem with stripped Robertson screws. But in woodworking, I have had a lot of spline drive screws strip. Especially the spline driver tips. And I only buy name-brand driver bits. They just do not hold up. And lately, that is all you can buy around here is the spline screws. The Robertsons are getting very hard to get.
@@robertlawrence9000 you just need to only use the right size and make sure your bits are properly hardened ones. They look worn before they do damage.
phillips can go away but we need to keep JIS
When I do electrical work around the house the Robertson has been my go-to for a number of years. Today for the first time I ran into #1 Robertsons. Prior to that everything had been #2.
Good comparison. I have the ECX tip and a lot of others, will try the Bosch tips and the Klein flip Robertson. I do some furniture work and like the look of the Robertson screws.
Flat heads make great little pry bars. Have only used the Rob a few times on some wood projects but each time I used them I loved the positive connection I had driving them into the wood.
Torx screws are the best
Regardless of the type of driver, I don't like using bits unless they lock into the handle. Sometimes the bits get stuck on a screw and you really don't want it falling and shorting something out!
I enjoy using the square bits but I must be using low quality bits because I find that they get rounded too easily. Recently got a set of PB Swiss screwdrivers.. one of the best tools i have ever purchased. Pure quality
I’m so glad you took the time to make this review of all different brands and types Really appreciate 👍👍
As a Canadian, electrical engineering technician, and from an electrician family, Robertson bits are the best choice for installs. Green and red are the working bits (yellow and black being the outliers). Btw, square drives are not robertson. There are differences that make robbies superior.
If it's not a Robertson, it's wrong. 😁
Robertson are square drives. What distinction are you making? The taper? Strange to mention distinctions as if they were important while avoiding a mention of what the differences are. Do you come across Non-Roberson square drives in these applications?
@@ccbowers Robertson tools and screws have a slight taper to the square recess and the square drive ones do not. The true Robertsons tips are made by the company and inserted into a shank/shaft for use in the tool. Square may fit robbies and vice versa, but shouldn't, as they may cam out or fail in other ways.
@@TheThomasites All square drives I see have a taper, therefore Robertson. Seems like a distinction that doesn't seem to matter much anymore. The design is over 100 years old, and the taper was around since then. Where do you see non-tapered square drives?
@@ccbowers usually in combo sets, no name stuff that the general public uses. Have to remember that not everyone buys big name stuff, but may watch a yt video on stuff like this. Just did a quick search, available on amazon if you type square bits. Robetrtsons come up but so do true square.
The history I heard of Phillips vs Robertson screws was that in the beginning of WW2, with the big increase in production, Ford had to decide between the 2 screw types. Critical difference was that Phillips were far less likely to over-torque. At higher torque, Phillips bits would slip out out of the screw head while Robertson bits would hold fast (and then break the screw or strip out of the metal).
It was my understanding through my father (of WW2 vintage) that they were designed to prevent over torquing. There were (and are) variants like pozidriv that reversed course and squared up the blades to create a surer fit. I would suggest that Phillips are still useful for not breaking the plastic parts of say electrical outlets.
The real reason ford didn't use it was he wanted exclusive rights to Robertson & the inventor wouldn't sell it to him. As usual ford tried to lowball the deal.
Makes sense for the initial availability of Robertson screw design circa 1906 to 1911 for normal production… [According to Google: US & Canadian Patents: Canadian patent: 1907, CA103387, U.S. Patent CA103387A; US patent: 1911, U.S. Patent 1,003,657; Square head screw: 1909, PATENT #116463 Manufacturing machine: 1911 ] However, the patents would have been long expired by the time of the drastic increase in production for WW2 in the 1940s.
I am just a do what I have to DIYer, and discovered the Canadian square head screwdriver over 40 years ago when living in Canada. I found it to be the best screwhead by far. Unfortunately I now live in Europe (Ireland) and square head screws are seldom if at all used. More is the pity. 😪
Thank you. I use whatever works. When working on laboratory equipment, I have all the screwdrivers laid out. And I usually end up using each type. Some manufacturers make life interesting.
My grandfather knew Mr Robertson. I always have used Robertson screw drivers for electrical work, probably Robertson #2.
Thank you for your interesting video. In case there is a beginner in this electrical work or just your first electrical work I should prompt to you that the buzz over this topic of best fit screwdriver is because all electrical work connections should be quite tight to be safe and avoid potential risk of fire etc in our home, so its quite important to tight well these connections.
Not insulated, but I like the Klein 32560 "Extended Reach" multi-bit driver; extended blade bits that lets you get into deeper holes when needed, comes with #2 phillips, 1/4" slotted and #1/2 robertsons...and works as 1/4" and 5/16" nut drivers...which covers pretty much most things you'd encounter, without the excessive amount of potential options/flipping to find the right driver.
Wear rubber glovers and you do not have to worry about insulated tools.
You put a lot of heart and search into this project. Thank you!
I generally like slotted screws (flat drivers). The only huge downside to them is the difficulty in getting the driver centered on the screw. Minor problem with them is their intolerance for the driver being tilted. If you can get the driver centered and parallel to the screw (co-axial), you're golden. I've had times when screws with other drive types (including socket-head hex drive) rounded out and I had to cut a slot in the screw head to get the screw out with a flat blade driver. The thing that flat drivers have over other designs is their ability to exert force on the screw as far from the screw center as possible, maximizing their torque. Those screws that were so tough to remove that they rounded out were easy to remove with a flat driver. All that being said, I usually use phillips drivers when I can, primarily for their self-centering design. The downside of them is that they were designed to (intended to) cam out of the screw to limit the torque that can be applied to them. But phillips screws are so ubiquitous in the USA that a phillips #2 driver will fit most. My experience with square(ish) drives is that they tend to cam out and quickly round off both the screw and the driver. Whether I've had experience with both types of squareish drives/screws, I can't say. All I can say for sure is that the squareish stuff I've experienced is no better than phillips. If I could have my preference, everything would be star drive (torx). Those give the best grip of all, granted you have a good driver whose tiny points won't bend or break. I think the next best thing would be something resembling a slotted security screw. Interrupt the slot with a post and put a slot in the middle of the flat driver blade to accept that post. It would be very unlikely to cam out, and the post would keep the driver centered on the screw.
Wrong The Plugs And Switches The Screw gun Will Strip Out The Crappy Metal When Using The Phillips Bit But Will Torque Down Using The Square! The Only Way I Do That With The Phillips Bit Is To push The Plug Against The Painted Wall ! Square Is Better In Soft Metals!
I'm always a fan of Klein, especially with the return policy. Wiha makes a great multi bit screwdriver that holds the bits that almost always goes with me. This isn't always the case with the Klein.
For Sure I have klein tools that have been passed down to me !
I do some side work with an electrician. I prefer ECX over the Robertson but both work well and I prefer a flat over Phillips any day.
The Phillips system was intentionally designed to cam out at a certain torque (with a certain down force). It's a feature designed to convert a down force into a torque limit. Any combo driver that supports Phillips will tend to cam out. Slotted doesn't cam out, so you can get lots of torque. But it slips out very easily and requires skill and patience. Robertson won't slip like slotted and won't cam out like Phillips. Of course it's better!
I started using Robertson screws back in the 80's in the boat industry. The reason they work best is due to their tolerance to off angle drivers. That is, you don't have to be perfect aligning the driver to the screw to get the job done. No matter what system you use a longer shank on the driver makes it easier to keep the bit within the angle tolerance of the drive.
I always use the flat blade because I find the Philips tip makes it too easy to strip and ruin the soft screws in electrical fixtures. I hate flat head screwdrivers, though. I'll have to try the square tips. I never even realized those would work.
Robertson are the best. Hands down it is a superior system. The only thing I won't use Robertson for is drywall and that's only for the mud.
#2 Roberson is the most common and nearly all used in woodworking. I’m a semi-retired industrial electrician and never licked Philips for electrical work Roberson (best) or a Proper Fitting flat blade.
We only used #2 Robbie when installing cabinetry. Love that driver.
great info, I'm a Milwaukee ECX #1 bit fan & suffer through removing old work slotted screws... consider using macro slider rail to stabilize the video & clamping the subject device
Excellent video and I love the lens . I agree the robertson is great..I have been using the ecx with great success. I appreciate this video and all the time you dedicated to this. I will try that klein robertson. Have a great one man. Keep the videos coming
Robertson screws snd drivers are the best. They come in 4 sizes and handles are coloured for instant recognition. Best system in the world.
It depends... some devices still only come with slotted screws. Otherwise, I'm a huge convert to the Xeno driver (a.k.a. combo) and bought a #1 and #2 Wiha insulated set to go with my other insulated drivers. The #2 Xeno is by far my most used now. I never use Phillips anymore... they cam out way to easily. The Wiha Xeno drivers also have the extra tip extension, like the Klein does (I also have for non-insulated needs). For everyday screws... I will always go for square (robertson) over any other head drive type.
I have been an electrical contractor for 40 years and I have experienc before that 5 or 6 years working with my father as he was a contractor also I really like your videosthis one expresses the need for the use of a proper screwdriver in electrical work so many times I've come across electricians that use a Philip screwdriver that does not torque the tightness down on a circuit breaker, and the wires have slipped out and I uncalled to repair it and found d*** dude, use the right screwdriver. Your explanation of this was impeccable. Use a square drive, and this new Klein is new to me. I'm going to get one for me and all my employees too.KJ
This is a great video, and lots of great feedback on the types of drivers. I would also like to see a version of this done by @ProjectFarm as a technical comparison to understand this topic from a more data driven approach.
You can use Phillips, slotted, square, or combo tip. It's common to use 1/8, 3/16, 1/4, and 5/16 slotted drivers in electrical work. Also square and Robertson are similar but different. A lot of IEC devices will use pozidriv. And insulated tools are not necessary if the circuit is de-energized.
Insulated tools add a layer of safety at virtually no cost.
Very interesting. I've always used a Philips #2 to snug it then a flat head to torque it. I will have to try the Robertsons bit. Thanks.
I use a multi-tip Milwaukee or Klein for outlets, panels. If it’s multiple boxes I’ll get busy with eob or eox 1-2’s in a dewalt variable clutch 12v driver.
The Milwaukee ECX looks like the square drive portion is to keep the bit from slipping out of the slot rather than adding more torque. Personally, I use the Robertson all the time. My coworker uses a slot head and torques it down as hard as he can, once breaking the switch body.
That's exactly what my coworker does: slot head as tight as he can make it. He also uses a wrench to tighten a hose to the hose bibb. Every time I had to remove the hose, I'd find a mashed washer or normally, no washer at all!
Actually I think the biggest problem is the soft screws that they put in them they're not hard enough that's why they tear out.
Not really because harder screws wear your screwdriver faster
@@balinoob1837 I had issues where I can't tight a cable on some manufacturers sockets. Either the screw thread slips or the head.
I agree with the results. Been using 1 & 2 robertsons for years with no problems. I also use a 12v DeWalt impact for devices. It doesn't over torque the screws.
I wondered why I got a square driver with my Klein set, now I know!! Thank you!
I've been happy since I discovered ECX, and expected you would find it the winner. Like, they just never cam out and I can torque breakers and receptacles as tight as I want. But, you've convinced me to try finding a good quality Robertson driver and give it a shot. As an added note, I considered the nub on the ECX tip to be helpful in centering the tip in the screw to begin driving, not so much for torquing.
Try the PR2 for all your phillips number 2 needs. Check it out its a PR2 not the PR2
You should try a SL/PZ2. I got a Wera VDE set with 18 interchangeable tips and it is pretty compact. There are different versions of it, mine has all the slotted, number one and two of: PH, PZ, SL/PH, SL/PZ. And some special tips for opening electrical boxes and panels.
I agree with your assessment of the Robertson. I got all excited when I discovered ECX. It's great but is harder to line up.
I use flat tip / slotted on electrical because that's what Allen Bradley puts on the load side of their power distribution blocks and the J3 terminals, I also use Pozi drive on alot of stuff.
I knew Phillips would come in first as most used. Phillips is mostly used on Japanese screws by many people also. The correct driver on those would be the JIS Bits, Japanese Industrial Standard. Great video by the way. Always very informative as always.
Unfortunately, proper JIS drivers are unobtanium in the United States. A Phillips driver only sort of works with JIS screws.
no the biggest use of phillips is likely drywall screws.
Replacing a Philips screwdriver with a JIS (Japanese Industrial Standard) screwdriver can be beneficial depending on the types of screws you most commonly encounter. Here are some reasons why a JIS screwdriver might be preferable: 1. **Specific Design for JIS Screws:** JIS screwdrivers are designed to work with JIS screws, which are commonly found in Japanese products, particularly electronics and motorcycles. The fit between the driver and the screw is more precise, reducing the risk of stripping the screw. 2. **Less Cam-Out:** The JIS screwdriver's design reduces the likelihood of cam-out, where the screwdriver slips out of the screw head, potentially damaging the screw or the workpiece. This is particularly important in precision work. 3. **Better Grip:** Due to the more precise fit, a JIS screwdriver can provide a better grip and more efficient torque transfer, making it easier to work with tight or difficult screws. 4. **Versatility:** While a JIS screwdriver is specifically designed for JIS screws, it can often be used effectively on Philips screws as well, offering a degree of versatility. 5. **Durability:** JIS screwdrivers are often made with high-quality materials and precise manufacturing standards, leading to increased durability and longevity. However, it's important to note that while a JIS screwdriver can be used on Philips screws, the reverse is not true. Using a Philips screwdriver on JIS screws increases the risk of damaging the screw. If you frequently work with Japanese products or find that you're stripping screws with a Philips screwdriver, switching to a JIS screwdriver could be a wise decision.
JIS bits and screwdrivers are available in the US. I have both screwdrivers and the bit tips@@jonjohnson3027
I use the correct # screwdriver with the Phillips screws and on all my Japanese motorcycles and many electronics I use JIS. I personally never interchange them. JIS for Japanese and Philips for American Phillips@@cabinlife1886
I hate "Robertson" drives. Don't get me wrong, they are great as long as the driver is aligned perfectly with the screw. Placing the driver a couple degrees off center guarantees the screw to "cam-out". I find the "torq" or "star" drive drivers to be the best for the best torque, plus, it allows the driver to be mis-aligned with the screw at greater angles. Sadly, the electrical hardware industry has not caught on to using the drive in most, if not all applications.
That’s a good point about the angle of the driver. It’s still my weapon of choice, especially when compared to the Phillips or slotted, but I can definitely see what you’re saying there.
It depends on the job. ECX only works for things like outlet sockets and recent switches. The older things don't, and just to get to it utilizes standard Phillips or flat-heads to access. You need a standard slot driver to get the plates off.
Nice explenation... Thank you. (wonderful new lens. This is exactly what they are made for)
Nothing can beat torx.
Not seen some of those combinations, must be very regional! Curious how Robertson didn't 'travel' too well. In general use, it's all Pozidriv in the UK and TORX now I'm in Norway... I hate having to change TORX bits constantly though, T10, 15, 20, 25, 27(?!) and 30 are in daily use 😞 I'm a No. 2 pozi fan just for it's wide range.
Try a Vessel JIS Japanese Industrial Standard
@johnrhodes3350 yeah, amazing how few folks know about the JIS, especially with the prevalence of Japanese motorcycles etc. No wonder the 'Philips' screws on every Honda I've ever owned have been chewed to bits...
Started in the trade 40 years ago and always used a keystone round shank slotted with the hex bolster. I don't like using drill drivers on the crap metal used in devices, but the Roberts is really good on the new combo screws. Phillips is designed to cam out of the screw and I NEVER used insulated screwdrivers on outlets or switches.
You’ll be happy to know that I went with your recommendation and 60% of the time, it worked every time!
11% better, usually!
Wiha needs to get Busta Rhymes as their spokesperson 😅 “When I step up to the panel, you know I step correct VEE-HAAAAH! Gonna fix elect(rical) I got dat combination drive that keeps the screws in check VEE-HAAAAH! Gonna fix elect(rical)” 😅 (I’ll show myself out…)
65% of people use Philips because they are great for 90% of projects. I hate coming across all the oddball screws guys will use on small repairs in a house full of Philips and having to switch tips to remove that one Torx or Robertson. Sure, if you’re building a brand new deck, switch to something better than Philips, otherwise stay consistent with what exists, as long as it works. And Philips usually does
The Milwaukee tool next to the outlet in your farewell comes with all the bits you need to do electrical work and is ratcheting to boot. I have it in the stubby version as well. I will try the Square drive next time I do any electrical work!!
In a previous job we had an electrician that the first thing he would do when installing a new fixture is throw out the Phillips screws that came with it and replace them with Robertson. It cut installation time way down.
Pro tip for using insulated screwdrivers, wrap the end of the insulation closest to the screwdriver head in electrical tape to reduce wear and tear on the insulation. Just the last 2 an' a half to 3 inches of it, one layer thick ought to do it. Ask any Journeyman Electrician to show you the end of his screwdriver and you'll see the wear and tear I'm talking about... unless they also use the same trick. There's a more than few of us who do it.
My journey told me he has never bought insulated drivers...just wrapped the whole shaft in tape. The insulated ones he has now were bought by the company haha.
@@spanky4446 then your journey_ _ _ should at lease do a resistance test on various spots on it to get an idea of how maney ohms of protection they're getting, seeings how that method doesn't exactly come with a rating. (You wrote "journey" you forgot the 'man' at the end... "journeyman". LOL) Just remember, most electrician _electrocutions_ don't happen due to bare hand comming into contact with an energized part of the circuit, but rather we tend to get our fatal-shock through our tools. (In case your really green... in the electrical trade we make a clear distinction between the words shock and electrocution... "shock" is just getting zapped, "electrocution" is electrical execution, as in dead, no longer alive. Just so we're clear on terms.) Also, yes, I'm implying that maybe your journeyman's method isn't necessarily the safest... That being said, many sparkies do it, they have for many decades. It may be the origin of insulated screwdrivers. Also, I've never heared that anyone died because their taped driver wasn't sufficiently insulated so...
@@binaryglitch64 haha good catch ... Yeah I've only been an apprentice for a few months so I do appreciate the advice. I definitely didn't know that most electrocutions happen through the tools. Is that mostly because people get careless and just assume the tool is safe? Or is there something about it that makes it more dangerous? Thanks!
That was an eye opener! You had a rogues gallery of combo screws: Philips/slot, Pozidrive/slot, Robertson/slot and some that looked like a triple whammy Ph/Robertson/slots. It seems there is no limit to the imaginations of engineers. Thank god they always add a slot, so you can always get the job done. I'll stick to my trusty slots and keep DIYing away. Still don't get how Robertson would help any going thru the mess, thou.
For me, the issue is that I do NOT want a bunch of different screwdrivers in my toolbox! I think 99% of the time, I reach for my multi-tip screwdriver, and use the "right" tip. So the weird combo tips are vastly inferior to either Phillips or Robertson, because those already "live" in my multi-tip screwdriver. I was glad to learn here that I was not giving up much/anything by not having yet another single purpose tool!!!
Thank you for sharing. I try to limit the number of screwdrivers in my electrical tool pouch snd carry a multi bit screwdriver. I have found the square bit to be the best for breakers and receptacle/ switch terminals. I do want to get an insulated screwdriver and am going to get the Klein square driver combo based on your video
for me i never like to use a flat head as an actual screwdriver i use it more as a pry bar or beat on them
Everything should be torx
Great vid!! Thanks a lot. Answers, and proves real life ... many of the conclusions I've only been guessing about. Super helpful research. AND, yep .... I had also, (just winging it! without the expertise you brought to the table!) some time ago decided the Robertson (square tip) was an excellent screw engagement type. I use power drivers (cordless drills) much of the time ... in wood working ... but all manual in electrical work. The Robertson just seems to work ... for me. My ultimate choice, always, however is what i call the 'clutch head" arrangement -- "star drive". THE least likely to cam out, or wear out of all, provided you ensure you have 100% engagement. The only negative I've noticed with these is the use of the drive design in really small screws. Very easy to strip the driver and/or screw. Just have to be careful, go slow, and apply a lot of "push" to maintain the engagement. Haven't seen that style in electrical work yet. Anyway ... Thanks again. REALLY helpful video.
i used to use ECX #1 and #2 for electrical work. Few weeks ago I accidentally use PH3 when there was no ECX#2. It works out quite well.
I'm in a looking for references for screwdrivers. This video is really helpful.
You left out the JIS screwdriver JIS screws have several advantages over Phillips screws. One advantage is that JIS screws are less likely to cam out, which means the screwdriver is less likely to slip out of the screw head and damage the screw or the surrounding material. This is because JIS screws have a different angle on the cross-point, which allows the screwdriver to fit more securely into the screw head. Another advantage of JIS screws is that they are commonly used in electronics and other products manufactured in Japan, so if you are working on a Japanese product, using a JIS screwdriver can help prevent damage to the screws and make it easier to work on the product.
You didn't mention the Pozidrive bit. I discovered them in 2022 when working on some SquareD molded case Breakers. My Phillips bits were coming-out and damaging the screws. I finally looked at the instructions and the recommended PZ2 bits which I found in my 100 bit kit from Amazon. I haven't tried them in a receptacle but they look like a modified to Phillips bit, the the wings at a lesser pitch.
The Klein magnetic 10-1 multidriver includes both #1 and #2 Robertson. Non-magnetic may also have them.
Was using the green handle #6 back in the eighties #8 for boxes and screws, and #10 for heavy screws, the numbers changed years kater to 1,2 3...Canadian Robertson square sockets are the best.
I use #2 Square for panel work. For devices I use an impact with a #2 phillips to zip the screws down and then I use a flat head to check for tightness. I should try a #1 square.
I have Robertson drive bits and they work great for that as well as for impact drivers and drills nice video sir
Great video, thank you for really doing an exhaustive job researching these drives. I bought the klien combos and was disappointed, they dont seat well. Robertsons are the way to go.
For recepticals and switches I love the Milwaukee #41-20 which is a combination Robertson#1 and 1/4" slotted blade. Doesn't slip at all and fits many different brands or screws very well. You can really crank down on a #12 wire with it. It is 1000 volt rated, 8-1/2" long and has a soft material, high torque handle design.
I have also found through trials that the Robertson tip was the best and I only needed to have it and slotted for finish work
I use ECX #1 or Square # 1 for terminal screws. Very strong torque and does not slip.
I LOVE the Bosch p2r2 bits. I find that they grip screws way better than any Philips bit. And they don't require nearly as much pressure. Even on receptacle screws.
Interesting. I was excited to buy my 1st combination type from "Ideal" (made in USA) that was on sale at Lowes. Now I have to go look at it more carefully and rethink everything.
I was excited when I saw the ECX bits. One comment from one user was that the ECX bits don't lock into the drivers. I found that too. I also found that ECX was har d to get used to lining it up on the screws. I like the Robertson. I will look into the Klein double driver. The screwdriver I carried even though it is not insulated was the 10-1 yellow handled driver from Ace Hardware. The bit s are good steel and it has two flat blades two Phillips two Robertson two torx plus a 5/16 1/4 nut drivers. Just a note about the Phillips. Research and you will find that was invented by Mr Phillips for the auto industry. Much off the parts were put on with screws. They were installed with air drivers. They did not have the torque adjustment they do now. The screws were getting over torqued would strip the threads. Mr Phillips designed the "Phillips" to cam out when over torqued. When it cams out it is working as designed.
Toughbuilt also makes an insulated combi screwdriver (Part # TB-H5-N-CT1x4, which comes in a set with an insulated Philips and insulated Slotted screwdriver) that seems to fit receptacle screws very well. It might not fit every other electrical screw I run into on the job but I don't expect it to. I use Robertson tips or drivers on ground bars and breaker screws and slotted and Philips screwdrivers where needed, because they will always be needed. But the ESX or my new Toughbuilt driver seems to work very well in allowing me to torque down the screws for electrical devices when I'm installing them.
So I finally bought one of these screwdrivers after my number 1 Robertson was slipping after a long time of use. Klein tools finally came out with one of these as well. I bought the number 1 and number 2 for electrical panels. I didn’t feel comfortable using it on panels so I took that one back but I’m definitely keeping the number 1 ECX for receptacles. I like that it’s on there tight so I can really put some muscle into it and get it good and tight.
Interesting, think I'm gonna need to try the Robertson. I've sometimes used the SL/PH drives in the past, but I always ended up needing a regular PH drive for something so I've ended up just carrying PH instead. Well, I always carry a 2.5mm and 5.5mm flathead as well as a PH1 and a PH2 screwdriver, prepared for almost anything.
I often use flat heads on the device screws because it offers better torque than a phillips driver. On circuit breakers I prefer robertson when its an option. On a side note, phillips is designed to slip before you overtorque. An additional note: use hand tools on your terminal screws. You can break screw heads off with power tools and are more prone to stripping screw heads.
The Wiha screwdriver is great. Here in Germany, I use it almost every day and can muster enormous power with it. Unfortunately, the flat sides break off quickly and cause the screwdriver to slip.
Mine broke also but they replaced it.
I tried the Robertson after hearing about it a couple of years ago and definitely liked it better. I still find myself grabbing a Phillips unless I remember the Roberson. Normally it's after I get started, and it's all the way in the basement while I'm at the other end of the house upstairs. Unless I plan ahead and bring more tools than I need and then I probably will have it. Definitely need to make it habbit tho..