Promises as a MAGIC SYSTEM?
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Magic systems look pretty spectacular at the best of times, but it isn’t always that way. Sometimes the best magic comes from the simplest sources. Sometimes something as a small as a promise can change the very fabric of reality, if we, the writers, let it.
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You gave me an idea: Memory as a magic system. Those that can learn or have a gift to memorize a moment perfectly can recreate that moment at their whim. It takes a toll on ones psyche, though, when they want to do the fantastic - they have to alter their own memories which risks driving the mage to madness.
Wrote a short story with a similar idea once. A character sacrificed her own memories to manifest them into reality, and had to relearn much knowledge. It ended with her losing her memories of a loved one to bring them back from the dead.
Another series by Brandon called mistborn has something a little like what you describe. Certain group of people are born with the ability to store memory in copper.
The Twice-Dead King series (a pair of Warhammer 40k novels) has a system kinda similar to that. The protagonist has the ability to enter a trance where he relives an old memory as if it were happening anew - no flaws in the memory, no shifts in emotional tone due to how his personality has changed over his extremely long life. He has no control over which memory it is, just goes into his trance and trusts the magi-tech to do its thing. Hours of memory will play out in seconds, and he will come back to the present having gained a piece of insight that is somehow crucial to solving his current problem. The cost that the memory will immediately start to fade like a dream, and within minutes he won't even know what it was he lost. The bigger a problem he needs solved, the more valuable the memory lost, usually. Some memories come as a total shock even to him, as after millennia of bitterness over being exiled, his perceptions are pretty skewed and perfect recall shatters some of his beliefs.
This sounds a lot like pre-science chemistry Old times were wild
So like, A memory of a flood or an earthquake would manifest if they had previously experienced it. Or knowing the pain of torture or struggle of drowning, they can make enemies feel the same thing. I would like to imagine that if they are able to retain the memory of dying they could insta-kill anyone. That sorta thing?
One thing you didn't talk about that I think is worth discussion: When/if a broken promise is forgiven.
Oooh yeah that would have been great!
this remind me the scene where aragorn told the ghost that the oath has been fullfilled and they part their ways after that
The Stormlight Archive does get into that a bit in the later books, and it's definitely an interesting facet of the magic!
Could trust be restored? I find it can be, not often, not easily, but it is possible.
One of my favorite examples of a promise, though it's more like an oath in this case, is from the webcomic Girl Genius. One of the characters is, functionally, immortal. He doesn't age and can't die. This is because of an oath he took upon coming of age. And oath that everyone in his culture makes to the gods. That they will achieve something and will always move towards that goal. And, provided they're always moving towards it, they can't die until they achieve it. In this guy's case, he wanted to see the world. And that promise was taken literally. So long as there is somewhere in the world he hasn't seen, he won't die. And as long he's travelling, the gods will continue to give him immortality.
Oh man. I'm a year or two behind (life, huh) and like. Thanks for the reminder I need to catch up
wait is that one oggie's grandson?? or am i remembering this wrong
How is it called?
Then why doesn't everyone just make similarly impossible goals so that way they to become immortal. Like make there goal to discover immortality that works without the gods aid, so that way he can keep it even after it is done.
@@dylanmiller6169 And perusing their goal. You discover the secrets of immortality....then you die. It's still powered by oaths, and you just completed yours.
Alongside kept promises and broken ones, I would like to add the 'unbreakable promise' variant. Not very common but sometimes, an oath is treated as unbreakable. Not because there's a terrible consequence if you break it, but because you literally cannot. There'll be a probably magical and usually vauge power that compells you to carry out your promise at all costs, often to disastrous consequences.
That idea is known as a "geas" in Irish folklore. It was incorporated into Dungeons & Dragons.
@@jeffweskamp3685 nah Geas can be broken. You just suffer absurd consequences if you do Also they are not promises that you make. They are curses others put on you thay you have to uphold. Most often because you are simply too powerful.
@@natanoj16 they *can* be a promise made that behaves that way though. A warlock can make a pact that binds them in such a way that they literally are incapable of violating it
@@torunsmok5890 “I swear if you give me cool magic powers I’ll never breathe!” - Warforged warlock (applicant)
The simplest example of that I can think of is the Oathrod from Wheel of Time. Before a woman is made full Aes Sedai they have to make the Three Oaths on the Oathrod. From that day forward, if they attempt to lie, their throat violently seizes up and their head gets fuzzy. If they try to use magic to hurt a human, the ability flees from them, and though we have never seen it, if they tried to make weaponry Id imagine the same thing would happen.
In the Dresden files, broken promises hurt a wizards ability to use magic and any of the supernatural creatures are actually harmed or held to the promises.
Only if they swear by their power/magic.
@@MWhaleK it’s kind of a running theme, especially with the level of power most of the things Harry is making deals with.
Bruh, The Dresden Files are awesome! I'm reading Dead Beat now as I play thus video in the background. Gotta love thar duster wearing urban wizard 🤠.
@@bleachedout805 that and monster Hunter International are some of my favorite.
He even took in and refined the theme of repeated promises for the fey. In the books, they straight up can't comprehend the idea of breaking their promises. Once they're sworn, it's like an intrinsic fact of their existence. Not something they don't want to break, or are compelled not to break, they physically can't do it. We even see in the later books, an incredibly powerful fairy creature that is corrupted and taken over in a sense by what might as well be an elder god, and when that influence tries to force it to go against it's oath, it basically goes into epileptic shock, it's body going haywire until it's mind effectively self destructs.
Brandon Sanderson's stormlight archives magic system is so fantastic. My favourite part is book 2 and 4, and without spoilers of anything, it shows the power of keeping and breaking promises made. Soooo good!
Life before death...Strength before weakness..Journey before destination!
I'm on my second reading now, after reading the other Cosmere novels
Book 4 was just Die Hard in fantasy setting xD And I love it!
Well shit, I've been buried so deep in my life that 2 more books are out without my knowing
I also find it fascinating that when a person tries to swear an oath they are not ready for, nothing happens.
In Greek mythology there is the oath between Jason of Argonaut fame and his wife the Sorceress Medea. Jason won favor from Hera early on in his life by acting selflessly, but then lost it when he betrayed his oaths of marriage to Medea for his own selfish desires, and because Hera is the Goddess of Marriage and Family (as well as constantly the victim of cheating by her own unfaithful husband) of course she would be ticked off when her champion breaks his wedding vows. Jason tried to call on the gods to get back at Medea but none of them are willing to give him the time of day because he broke his oath and eventually dies as his boat, the one thing he was famous for collapses on him.
Heard about Jason's betrayal thanks to KZheadrs Overly Sarcastic Productions You should check them out, they're funny.
@@strandedgeek Yes I watch them regularly
There's more oaths in Greek mythology then Zeus Jr's.
You left out the part where Medea kills their children, part in revenge part to prevent Jason selling them into slavery, and the gods all sided with her
You forgot how Medea was a psychopath pretty much and wanted to go to extreme lengths for all wedding vows. She killed her own brother and chopped his body into pieces and dropped then one by one in the sea so when escaping with Jason, the enemy would stop and collect the pieces of the dead body. Medea was also extremely jealous and did extreme things.
Reminds me of Vows from Hunter X Hunter. The system bases it's entire structure on promises you effectively keep to yourself. Like one of the strongest characters in that series, in order to unleash his strongest technique; he must pray in gratitude for everything martial arts means to him, from the deepest part of his soul. But the context of why this is meaningful is lost in my explanation. Just throwing it out there, if you are looking for a magic system based on oath, look up Nen from Hunter X Hunter.
Cursed Energy from Jujutsu Kaisen also has a similar thing.
Binding Vows are the exact opposite (in some cases) in Jujutsu Kaisen, but similarly in most. In the cases of a contract, if you bind a contract with someone using cursed energy, then the two of you have to perform it or some unknown consequence will occur. Sometimes, even if you literally don't know the contract, you still have to follow it. Sometimes these contracts are imposed on people, even at birth, so they can be powerful sorcerers. This manifests in a really interesting way. If you want an advantage, you have to give yourself a disadvantage. One of the characters has a binding vow where all of his words are cursed, and if he phrases something like a command, he'll curse whoever is listening to perform the action. So he can't talk normally and uses rice ball ingredients to communicate. Plus, the energy of his words kick back against him and hurt his throat. They all have such different ranges on the vow, but there are some universal ones. Like showing your hand, where if you tell an enemy your technique, you get more energy and the technique gets stronger. One character restricts his power for a certain amount of time in the day, and if he goes "overtime" then he'll get exponentially stronger. And one of my favorites is a woman who can force birds into a binding view with themselves that, if they commit suicide, they explode with cursed energy after removing their cursed energy limit. My MOST favorite is one of the characters being able to force someone into a ritual to fight a spirit that neither of them can beat. If he beats it alone, he can control it. But if he has help, then the ritual is canceled if they win. However, that's not its utility. The point is that whoever is caught in the ritual HAS to participate or be killed by the spirit, and the spirit is so absurdly powerful that nobody has been able to beat it in 1,000 years. Even someone who had two of the strongest abilities at once couldn't beat it and was killed through this ritual, as well as the person who cast it.
And that's not even getting into Devil Contracts in Chainsaw Man, where you get more of a devil's power the more you sacrifice to them (from their perspective). And they can take anything from patches of skin to years off of people's lives.
To add more context on Hunter X Hunter: magic-users can develop abilities that get more powerful the more restrictive they are, (but there must be a punishment to the user if the rules are broken). For example, one character has magical punches as long as he writes a haiku about it first. Another character gets an insanely powerful weapon, but it can only be used against 12 people he has a personal vendetta against (or it'll instantly kill him). In this way, the magic system resembles a contract - but it's unclear whether it's a contract with yourself, or a contract with the magic itself.
@@mr.froggu3292 Yea, I vaguely recall restrictions. Like the 9-5/ overtime method for that one guy.
Tolkien actually made words hold power in his mythos, with Oaths and Promises holding the most power of any word, being backed up by the creator-deity himself, Eru Illuvitar.
Amazing how far down this was...
Tolkien's magic phenomenally vague at times and very applicable to real life. "Suddenly another voice spoke, low and melodious, its very sound an enchantment. Those who listened unwarily to that voice could seldom report the word that they heard; and if they did, they wondered, for little power remained in them. Mostly they remembered only that it was a delight to hear the voice speaking, all that it said seemed wise and reasonable, and desire awoke in them by swift agreement to seem wise themselves. When others spoke they seemed harsh and uncouth by contrast; and if they gainsaid the voice, anger was kindled in the hearts of those under the spell. For some the spell lasted only while the voice spoke to them, and when it spoke to another they smiled, as men do who see through a juggler's trick while others gape at it. For many the sound of the voice alone was enough to hold them enthralled; for those whom it conquered the spell endured when they were far away, and ever they heard that soft voice whispering and urging them. But none were unmoved; none rejected its pleas and its commands without an effort of mind and will, so long as its master had control of it."
There's a web serial called Pact that has a magic system based in how words bind people and the power that can be extracted from that. Being caught in a lie will cause a practitioners magic to become weakened for a time. Becoming forsworn for going back on an oath makes you a sort of karmic sinkhole, and strips you of most of your magic
Came here looking for a Pact mention!
Eyyyy glad there's another Pact/Pale reader in the comments! ^_^
WOOO WILDBOW
I believe Stormfather would approve of this video.
These words have been accepted.
He found the words. The most important words a man can say.
Wow. Another Video about Power-Systems not mentioning the arguably Best ever: Nen from HxH. No matter how many say it's the literally best ever, it's barely mentioned in videos like this here.
@@loturzelrestaurant Wow, that has nothing to do with what I wrote. However, if you so wish, here's a couple of details you have missed: First and foremost, *so what?* If you feel there needs to be one, you can make it - no one else is forced to do so. Secondly, the fact that you called it power-system speaks for itself. System that encourages power above all else, with no further meaning isn't very interesting at all, no matter how elaborate it is. Thirdly, I know it sounds crazy, but maybe that's because it's not actually "the best" like you stated it is? Without any specific data, it is quite plausible it's just a vocal minority. So, all in all, I suppose I can sum it up with a simple: Who asked, spammer?
@@loturzelrestaurant Although anime is truly world-wide and hunter x hunter which has great abilities and character diversity. I don't think nen should truly be called best I mean it is one of the best power system due to it's unique properties but if saying that this is the best system then you can argue to the fact darwin's game and jojo's power system is the best.
In the TV show Once Upon a Time, literal Rumplestiltskin has the exact ability described in 9:07, albeit never explicitly stated. It's not the basis of all magic in the world, and also not nearly all he can do, but arguably his strongest power is that, whenever someone makes a deal with him, he is obliged to fulfill his part of the deal, and his powers will work wonders to ensure he can do so, and also that he can enforce the other person's part of said deal. That makes for a nearly omnipotent character, but who is shown to frequently be walking on eggshells to exploit other people's interests and work his way around magical laws, either innate or estabilished by other characters, whenever he proposes a deal, simply because his powers become very limited when no one promised him anything, especially early on.
I have to correct something about the Oathbreaker Paladin. Paladins draw from their own ideals, of course a god can be supplementary to their magic, but normally, all classes gain their powers from their own belief and code rather than JUST an outside source. That said, an Oathbreaker does not gain power from turning away from their Oath, rather they gain power from the belief that what they swore was bad, or wrong or even Immoral. And an Oathbreaker thus inverts their powers, showing that, whatever or whoever they followed are the opposite of them now.
Thank you! This whole time I was thinking about how Paladins are portrayed as not gaining their power from a god, their power comes from their Oaths, their belief, and their conviction. The god they serve may favor them, but unlike Clerics and Warlocks who receive power from gods through worship and bargains/deals, they become favored by the god through their commitment to their Oaths and Tenets and through their actions of embodying those ideals.
IMO, oathbreakers are not what happens when a paladin simply rebels, they are what happens when a paladin loses themselves, and there's an important difference there. Paladins indeed get their powers from their oath, but their oath doesn't need to be good or moral, take conquest and vengeance as possible examples. An oath of the crown paladin will not become an oathbreaker if they find the king is evil and keep their oath as now the king's bloodlusty executor or if they swear vengeance on the king for the people he's slain. They will, however, lose their oath if they abandon the king and have no other regal authority to pledge allegiance to. Paladins also draw upon charisma for their magic, unlike clerics, who draw upon wisdom. Wisdom is described to represent one's power of will, or in other words, one's ability to do something against their urges, their conciousness, the superego. Hence why many mind control spells ask for wisdom saving throws. Charisma is described as one's strength of personality, the strength of their innermost urges, ego, the true self. Therefore, a paladin shouldn't be able to get power from unwillingly fulfilling their oath, they get power from *being* their oath. So when a paladin loses their devotion, and from now on it's mostly a headcanon on my part, their passion starts to fade, that flame which ignited their soul is dying, and should they not find a new oath, they become suscepitible to becoming an oathbreaker, and as their soul grows gray and cold, they align themselves with the lifeless, passionless side of magic, almost becoming one with the undead, and even becoming one if they die in that state (see Death Knight in the Monster Manual), being then forced to fulfill their original oath in order to retrieve their personality and leave undeath.
Except the Oathbreakers also explicitly happen when you simply make a mistake and unintentionally break the tenets of your Oath
Wow. Another Video about Power-Systems not mentioning the arguably Best ever: Nen from HxH. No matter how many say it's the literally best ever, it's barely mentioned in videos like this here.
@@loturzelrestaurant That's in part because... it isn't. Don't get me wrong, I love HxH and Nen is fun, but it is a bit generic at times, a bit undefined when it actually comes to application and has some rather arbitrary rules. Simply put, the techniques detailed are more used for convenience at times than properly extended, actual individual powers are lacking explanation most of the time (This is in part because of the fact most of the story isn't told and likely will never be) and well, it feels like at times we can replace Nen 1 to 1 with Ki from Dragonball and it would work just fine both as an explanation for powers and reason for our protagonists to have training arcs. I think the beauty of it really lies in the fact that HxH makes things feel more concrete than they actually are. Every fight still carries a seriousness even when the stakes are not clear and the MCs can still lose any fight and have a chance of taking reprocussions.
This is a great video, as always. My recommendation for a work with Promise-based magic is Pale (Or Pact, set in the same universe but is considered a weaker/worse story). In the webserial, One enters the world of Magic by committing to an oath to stay true to your word; In doing so, the world will listen when you attempt to do magic. When doing so, you also state a lot about yourself to the universe. Who you are, your goals and dreams, what you find important etc. This process is called Awakening. As for the actual magic system, the Author has described it as several different systems made from the same basic rules (Which is quite accurate once you start reading, imo). However, the cost to all this is what happens when you break a promise; To become Foresworn. Not even Death will take you. To be Foresworn is to be unmade, to reward anything that would hasten that process. The very building blocks of the universe shall come at you to make your (now very short) life a living hell -Which is saying something, when the things from *actual* hell fear this fate. A big plus is how active the community is! It even has a few discord servers, if you like to browse them (like I do).
I still like Pact for what it is. In Pale you're following people who are having more "fun" with the magic system and their circumstances are just mundane in many respects. In Pact you have a main character that is basically given a shit situation with shitty people all around them either trying to kill them or making things worse for them where they can in order so that they are killed. There is no fun to be had in Pact as magic is used as a tool to just try to survive while the main character and many others suffer fates worse than being Foresworn in many respects. To summarize, Pale is a magic and mystery adventure while Pact is a magic and mystery horror story. Pact is in fact one of my favorite horror stories and I highly recommend it.
@@brainstormsurge154 Pact as a horror story is a great take! Love how that re-contextualises things.
@@brainstormsurge154 That's exactly my impression of Pact too. Blake's thrown into a world of horrifying creatures and powers with few resources. The fact that he survives at all is impressive. Sounds pretty similar to some other horror properties in recent memory, yes?
Pact is my personal all time favorite story, while I couldn't really sit through Pale I feel that the main difference is the thematic they give Pact feels like a horrible situation and a story about persistence, cunning, determination and drive It's a horrible situation from start to end, where you constantly adapt to stay afloat and lose much in the process Pact for me is "To do what it takes" While i've not finished Pale, it feels like a much more lenient and fun? story Where pact sees magic as a tool to survive against all odds, Pale sees it as a net with which to rely on, there is no grandiose stakes but allows for a much more laid back story telling perspective in a world where magic and words and ideals are tangible Pact has a sense of Drive Pale has a sense of Wonder
I hate how everyone seems to take potshots at Pact whenever it gets mentioned, don't really understand it myself - even if it's considered Wildbow's weakest (which I would dispute), it's still a fantastic work, and the setting is really deep, engaging, and interesting, something which Pale now shares claim to, but that builds upon the setting defined by Pact. Pact itself is relatively short ("the only Wildbow work shorter than the Bible"), intense, and very fast-paced. The cast is much narrower than the other stories, but the characters that we do interact with are memorable and imo some of his best (Evan, obviously, but others as well). I think the fact that it's the shortest and most focused, compared to later, looser and more sprawling works like Twig, Ward, and even Pale, is a point in its favour, not against it. I love Pale, and it's currently probably my favourite (though, as it's ongoing, don't want to say for sure - endings are an important part of a story), don't get me wrong. But Pact is fantastic as well. And the impression everyone who hasn't read it seems to have of it is "the one people don't like as much", which feels desperately unfair to me. Even Pale I see getting recommended with "don't worry, you don't need to read Pact to read this", as if that's some great hardship (though I do get that Ward's potential readership was arguably somewhat harmed by being a more direct sequel to Worm, and most people who know Wildbow do so through first reading Worm).
It is very reminders me of Wildbows Pale and the use of practice. The magic of story you’re a performer. You stand on a stage in front of an unknown number of spirits who take an unknown shape. It’s your job to entertain them, and if you do, you’ll be rewarded with power. They’ve been watching this stage for thousands and thousands of years, and there are traditions that prior actors have developed that are relatively consistent in pleasing the spirits. They go through these procedures because they work, but if you’re creative enough and daring enough, you can try something different. In the modern day, those traditions are so ingrained that it’s rare to find someone daring enough to change the way it works, so the rules are relatively set in stone. Make a show out of whatever you do, hit narrative beats like the rule of three, and you’ll amplify any goodwill with the audience because they’ll be more entertained and thus more willing to grant you power. Think Shark Tank with magic instead of money. Now take this metaphor and turn the acting into magic. Magic circles work because the spirits like them, Others follow rules because they’ve made oaths to, those oaths and oaths in general work because the spirits like them, and everything about magic was crafted through trial and error over millennia.
This video gave me a sort of idea. What if whenever someone breaks a promise the person they made the promise to gains magical powers to make sure the promise is fulfilled and someone begins to try to do what you said of getting as many promises as possible but then does some misdeeds behind all those people's backs to make those giving them promises have break it. This causes them to amass an assortment of while incredibly varied, possibly very powerful magics.
What a cool idea! You should write about it! -Benji, showrunner
You should input some exploit failsafe in there like you can’t promise to yourself and promises must be of some degree in value to keep(like saying I’ll give you a house rather than I’ll not eat your sandwhich)
@@jksupergamer Maybe the harder the oath, the stronger the powers
I feel like that would make cults the most powerful organisations in the world. Gain a following, have them swear to you they'll never die by your hand (That way it's a realistic, yet powerful promise) then kill them all and gain immense power
@@hazeltree7738 honestly thats kinda weird since that means your a tureat tk them so there is no reason to swear that
You mentioned Gods bringing down divine wrath upon oath-breakers. I wanted to give a more specific example. In Norse Paganism, which I follow, oath-breaking is seen as a horrible crime by the Gods. But instead of being struck down by Thor, the souls of oath-breakers, after they die, are condemned to Niflheim, specifically the part of Niflheim where Níðhöggr, the Malice Striker, resides. Níðhöggr, or Nidhogg, is a giant dragon that chews on one of the roots of Yggdrasil, and souls sent to him are swiftly devoured.
A fitting end for liars.
@@bleachedout805 Murderers and adulterers also get eaten by him, which is good
Didn’t the Norse gods break their fair share of deals?
@@mackenziebeeney3764 Yup, but they’re not slated to die until Ragnarök, and by that point Nidhogg will be elsewhere, and doing other things.
@@mackenziebeeney3764 They generally found loopholes rather than outright breaking their promises.
The power of sincerity sounds like an excellent plot device and visualization mechanism for personal development.
Promises as magic can also be observed in Norse mythology: the reason Baldur is immune to all ham is because his mother made every single thing of the world swear that they would never harm him. And the reason mistletoe was his weakness was that it was too young a thing to be held to an oath, and was thus never made to swear. Thus, here, magic protection is granted to the object of a promise. I find this story interesting, and also very cute.
Oaths forge the world, and will makes it real
I've been waiting for this topic! Something about power in utter conviction is really fascinating, and my favorite example is the oath of Fëanor from Tolkien's legendarium. There are other examples of oaths taken in his stories, but this one is very potent: The Lucifer figure of Tolkien's work, Melkor, lusts enviously over three gems of immense beauty crafted by the elf Fëanor named 'Silmarils' that reflect the holy light of two magnificent trees that lit the world from within them. Fëanor covets them equally and rejects Melkor's advances of friendship when he mentions the Silmarils. Furious, Melkor seeks out an eldritch spider-like demon named Ungoliant and bribes her to help destroy the light of the two trees. He pierces their trunks so she can drink their sap. The darkening interrupts a festival. In the confusion, Melkor slays the elven king of the Noldor Finwë on their way to plunder Fëanor's vault. No one realizes all that has happened until Melkor and Ungoliant have fled. The Valar, deific angels that allowed the elves to live among them, ask Fëanor for his Silmarils once they're recovered as they're now the only source of light of the two trees left in the world. Insulted that the Valar would request such a thing and incensed at the treachery of Melkor (who is also a Valar!), Fëanor calls the hosts of the Noldor to chase Melkor; Then he swears a terrible oath. He swears by the name of God, Eru Ilúvatar. He swears on the chief of the Valar and his wife as witness, on the land itself, that he would pursue the Silmarils and nothing would stand in his way. He swears to wage war against and kill any who stand in his way. He renames Melkor as 'Morgoth' the great enemy. His sons jump to his side and swear the same. Fëanor's oath and his Silmarils become directly responsible for much of the strife not contrived by Morgoth after this point. He leads his host of Nolder to their coastline brethren Teleri, who upon refusing the Noldor their precious ships, fall victim to the first kinslaying of elves as Fëanor takes their boats by force. When his host lands in Beleriand (pre-modern Middle-Earth) they burn the boats. This forces the rest of the hosts of the Noldor to take the long northern passage Helcaraxë, 'the Grinding Ice'. While the rest of the Noldor are marching through *that*, Fëanor goes on a bloody warpath chasing Morgoth's Orcs all the way back to the dark lord's fortress. He outpaces everyone, eager to fight Morgoth himself; But a host of Balrog gets him alone. Fëanor is slain by Gothmog, captain of the Balrog. It's up to his sons to carry out the oath. ... The thing is, his sons all perish trying to fulfill the oath too. At the end of hundreds of years of war, blood, treachery, and woes, the two eldest sons manage to steal two of the gemstones. The holy light burns their hands, and they realize they're unworthy of even holding them due to their crimes; That in hindsight, breaking their oath and being swallowed by the Everlasting Darkness is the lesser evil. One throws himself into a chasm of fire, taking his Silmaril with him. The other casts his gem into the ocean and wanders the shoreline despondent. Sorry, this is pretty long winded. But it's my favorite!
My favorite variation of this magic system is actually the power of the deal. A mutual promise between two parties that is meant to benefit both parties, the power of trade made magic. Admittedly this is usually used with demons and fea creatures that are liable to twist it as much as they can, but that just shows that in any deal you need to exercise caution because there are people who will do the same or even break their end of the deal to get what they want, for the lowest short term cost.
Fantastic job providing a lens on aspects of Stormlight that are, in my awareness, ignored in most discussions. There's such depth to Stormlight's world, and its realization in the text is superb. But it's very easy to get lost in the minutiae and the theorizing. So it's lovely to be reminded of the broader concepts that make Stormlight as emotionally engaging as it is.
Before watching this description sounds similar to Wildbow’s stories Pact and Pale where in there magic system oaths, promises, and truth are incredibly important
In an anime I watched called fate zero. They had a Geass system where If you write a contract it has to be honored and you can't go back on it as it's basically a deal by magus. Coarse the smart way it was used by the main guy is writing he wouldn't kill the guy who signed it and had his helper do it instead. Basically thinking 4d chess which was extremely smart.
Poor diarmud during that scene...
@@diavolojaegar being lancer is pain
ok but Kaleid is better than Zero
Geas, it's an actual Irish contract. Even Cu was under them I believe, like, he couldn't eat dog meanmt
@@firepuppies4086 that was for his vows and medb got smart guys way smarter than her to weaken him by half and then throw his weapons or his house and even then he still was winning if not for the last lucky shot. This geas is more a contract directly signed and then we have the goddess aliance in Babylon where quetsocoatl got punished by losing half her power for Merlin messing up and why ereshkigal needed her link to be servered. They don't use it enough
This is really similar to the Celtic mythology concept of Geas where it plays a major part in a lot of stories.
The geas has similar concepts in Asia (I'm not sure where it's localized) attached to a kind of nature wizard who promises to abide by certain taboos in order to facilitate their magic
One of my recent favorite depictions of Oaths has come, actually, from a song by Diablo Swing Orchestra called "The Prima Donna Gauntlet". Through its lyrics and melody you get this essence of remorseful and sorrow, where one entity or character is signing in a mythic, poetic speech to another. The details are left vague enough so the viscerally passionate language of the lyrics stands out. The chorus being: ~ And I break down inside Every time I leave you behind I'll save your dreams I'll make them real For as long as I breathe In my wake, they will feel what they've done And I break down inside Every time I leave you behind I'll save your dreams I'll make them real For as long as I breathe In my wake, they will feel what they've done~ It can be interpreted as the expression "Throwing down the Gauntlet" as a surrender, but this feels like a song about swearing an oath, against any forces, demonic, earthly or heavenly, in the name of love. ~ They'll tell you whatever, your will they won't bend I am told there's a heaven, we're meant to ascend But I'll shade the sun and I'll make them repent Close the doors and pay the price for what's been done, what's been said You've told me words, sometimes hard to believe You keep closing your eyes, won't let nobody see But I'll bury them all, and I'll bury them deep For all the pain they have caused, and made you weep ~ There is deep rooted hated and vengeance being sung about. But the true tragedy of the sun is palpable even in its melody. ~ I'll be your beacon A light you can see I promise you're safe, I promise you'll heal ~ This won't end well for this Oath maker, as a writer friend of mine said... There has never been an Oath in Literature that didn't ended in tragedy.
The second edition of Changeling: the Lost has oath magic that functions in a lot of ways. Bargains are specifically what you were describing: a changeling does a favor for a mortal, and in exchange, those who hunt them are less able to find them. They weave themselves into reality in that way. They _can_ get something in return, but this protection is often more than enough, considering the horrors they ran away from.
The first Edition had a more open pledge system with open rewards and punishments, always balanced.
In one of my favorite book series ever, The Inheritance Cycle, oaths are taken pretty seriously. The overarching threat, a tyrannical and maddened king called Galbatorix, uses this to his advantage, combining them with true names to make a person physically unable to go back on their word. In this case, he makes them swear absolute fealty and obedience to him. I personally think that he is one of the most powerful magic users in fantastic fiction, period. If you could, perhaps you could make a video on him?
Ah yes Eragon. aka Star Wars took a dump on Middle Earth 😅 Also it's a mistake to pin galbatorix's power solely on him. If you follwo the text properly it implies the shade Durza was responsible for his rise to power after losing his first dragon. This for me was the thing that broke Inheritance cycle - Paolini killed the true villain in the first book, sort of like Rian Johnson killing Snoke in Last Jedi, it just breaks the rest of it.
You could consider LitRPG quests as sort of an arbiter of promises. Someone gives you a task and the world acknowledges the terms conditions etc. I’ve also seen some series were quests will punish the giver if they refuse to or fail to meet their end of the deal (Dakota Krout’s Completionist Chronicles).
So, along the lines of this thought process, there is a book series call "The Craft Sequence" by Max Gladstone. It kinda falls in line with this video, the magic system is tied to (basically) legal binding contracts. The magic system is very unique and amazing. I'd super recommend the series to anyone that likes Fantasy and world building.
How about a bit of Magic as Programs as well? No teleport Not enough RAM you are still below 64-bits And you can’t even quad-process yet! You home brewed a quick travel in a panic, that’s all… XD
Terry Pratchett and Neil Gaiman: name a more iconic duo ❤️
This made me remember how in some cultivation novel/manga have heavenly oaths which are sworn promises usually of loyalty and if broken you lose your strength or get hit by lightning 🌩 or just straight up die on spot..
Cool video. I wish I was able to world-build as well as some of the writers you mention here. Also, the animation here is good. Quite stylised, simplistic and beautiful.
The magic system is "Pact" and "Pale" is all about "Words are power", which makes Practitioners be very careful with their words so they wouldn't swear oaths that they then accidentally break and become Foresworn, which basically revokes all the protection they gain from anything.
Seeing a mention of pact out in the wild gives me glee
I actually made a god for a homebrew D&D setting whose purview was promises. I just simply called it The Oath Keeper. It was more of an arbiter and enforcer of oaths sworn in its name, and I had a whole kingdom use the church to oversee oaths and contracts. If the oath was properly sworn and represented (a ring being the open symbol for a maintained oath that was given by a priest of the Oath keeper or in some instances made by the separate parties as a symbol) it was seen as a mark of honor and respect, but if the promises were broken the ring in question would snap and the offender would be marked an oath breaker. Depending on the promise both parties could invoke the other as a sort of good faith gesture, and if the oath was still held true a person could basically use the spiritual support of others, like a spousal oath to help emotional distress by feeling them even if they weren't there, or even something as shallow as a business partner giving a sense of stability or reassurance that even in trying times there were people you could trust. Anyways I know it's a messy post of blobbed thoughts but I felt I had to share since this was kind of on the mark.
If I recall correctly, in 3.5, there's was a type of inevitable that would target oathbreakers.
@@sapphirII yes, actually. Hell if I remember the name of them, but they were the ones that would show up in robes with a sword. Looking like a magistrate of some kind. The inevitable were a cool set of creatures. Edit: at least I think I'm remembering the right inevitable. Now I'm doubting myself and wondering if it was the centaur/pegasus looking robots. The only ones I remember quickly were the hulking ones who defended the cycle of death and the god defending hedrons
Pact and Pale web series magic system is all about the magical bindings of promises, oaths and truth both in the spirit of keeping ones word and the act of never lying
i'd say a magic system where promises help both parties could work really well. for example perhaps a system where committing yourself to a promise allows you and who you made it to to become in sync, allowing you to become more and more connected magically, emotionally , mentally and even spiritually. taking the whole friendship is magic thing to its absolute end.
Delightful
I love seeing Sanderson talked about, such a creative and original author. I can't wait for the stormlight archive show or the mistborn movie.
Wait are these actual things or wishful thinking?
@@lunarevel brandon has showed interest in writting a screenplay for mistborn. So far as I know, SA tv show is just wishful thinking
It would have to be animated I think otherwise...eh
@@nigelwest5776 I agree, but I think it's going to be live action unfortunately. With mistborn that probably won't be so bad, but with Sa there's going to be so much CG used making it animated would just be cheaper.
Here's a freebie. I can imagine a character that collects promises then forces them to be broken to fuel their magical effects.
Ursula from the Little Mermaid. While it was not explicit, I suspect that was the reason why the sea witch made sure her clients ended as part of her garden.
This is sort of like a demon making a pact then doing everything in their power short of breaking the terms to cause you to break your end.
@@raistlin3462 While I do see the similarity. It didn't seem that Ursula's power came from the people subject to the added stipulations of her bargains, but she did get the power of king Triton when he freed Ariel? Was that Ursula's bargain or the act of taking Tritons crown and trident? Nuance.....
@@OpiatesAndTits yeah and the wording of their promise would have to be very deceptive and careful so they could cause the promise to break at the right time to use the "energy" when it was released. They could "store" the promise, but not the magic.
Everybody go read Pale by Wildbow, it's one of the best web serials out there and does this wonderfully
Stormlight Archives is omega goated as a fantasy series. Loved it and cant put it down, magic system is a huge help to drawing me into them
I think the concept of “contracts” in chainsaw man is a lot like this as well
I think you might have someone else talking about this in your comments, but Wildbow's newest Pactverse work, Pale, is circling around the powers unbalance and functions of deals. There's a thing called forswearing in Pactverse. Basically, if you break one promise, like telling your kids you'll give them snacks if they behave but then you didn't, the universe will HATES you for that. You can be called Forsworn. You still can use magic, but everything and anything, magical and mundane, they will hate you. Of course, you can make an oath or promise to strengthen you claim, but people aren't purely made of their words, and if someone doesn't want to be enslaved by their past, what can they do? But what's the difference between lying and breaking your promise, how much weight should we put on ourselves to judge people? Can lying be one of the fundamental things which life can be allowed to do? More importantly, if there's a system of determining what's a promise or what's not, can it ever be "fair"?
I actually really like how the Eragon series of books treats promises and the language surrounding them. Things said in the "ancient language" (or something like that, it's been a while) cannot be lies, and in the same breath, the ancient language is what is required to cast magic, so the words that you speak in the language are powerful. In that way, the wording of your magic can be very important, and probably the best example of this is when (spoilers) Eragon blesses a baby to "be shielded from suffering" but since he's a novice in a second language, he accidentally says "be a shield for suffering" which we as the reader don't know at first. He finds this girl later in the series, and discovers that he's essentially committed her to a life of misery, constantly taking on the suffering of those around her, and she hates him for it. It's pretty messed up.
One of the best uses of The Ancient Language in the Inheritance Cycle imo. A really unique use of a language-based magic system. In general I like how fluid The Inheritance Cycle’s magic can be. It’s limited only by the casters knowledge and creativity, which are my favorite kinds of magic system.
Buffy the Vampire Slayer has Vengeance Demons, where if someone's heart is broken, a demon may show up and grant you a wish so you can have vengeance. Does that count as magic gained from a promise broken?
fyi… they prefer “Justice Demon” 😏 (it’s a paraphrased quote from the show, I’m not being a jerk, honest!)
Yeah that’s a perfect example
I just came across your channel by chance and I am only a few minutes into this video so far but I wanted to say I absolutely love your art style.
Pact and Pale great webserials written by Wildbow (John C. Mcrae) and the entire magic system is based on making an oath to be truthful and in doing so your word becomes magically meaningful. If you remain truthful and keep your promises the spirits reward you. I think the magic system in Pact and Pale is also much more harsh that the other magic systems. If you lie and are called out on it then you lose magical power ranging from hours and even up to years in some circumstances and in this universe that is very dangerous since you lose magical protections and most things (Magical beings, other magic users, the universe itself) in the universe are passively or actively dangerous. What's most striking in this magic system is the steep penalty that comes with breaking an oath. If a magic user ever breaks a promise then they immediately lose all of their magical power forever, are stripped of any and all protections and the universe itself becomes hostile to them (the universe will actively make things worse for them by having events conspire to make their lives worse) and on top of that people, magic users and magical creatures are rewarded for hurting oath breakers. In this universe, breaking an oath is one of the worst things that can happen to you, basically being a death sentence. If you are interested in reading this then you can find it by googling for Pact or Pale web serial. They are both set in the same universe but are independent of each other. Pact was written first but I highly recommend that you skip that one and read Pale instead.
Really really love the way you draw spren. I mean the art style for these videos in general is phenomenal, but these spren got me wanting to visit shadesmar
This reminds me of how some of the paladin oaths are described in 5e d&d. You take an oath essential a promise to an ideal, and that is what grants you power.
This video, while my first of this channel, is absolutely amazing, the art is great and the explanation is awesome, great work!
I love the stormlight archive. I finished book 2 today
One of the instances of promises received having an effect on the recipient that came to mind for me was curses of vengeance, such as those made just before being condemned to death by your peers; tales of witches being executed in particular are what I'm reminded of.
This is a great video. I love the idea of oaths as a magic system. Keep up this great work.
I'm in love with your art! Your videos and tutorials are so helpful and insightful. I can't wait to see more of your incredible work!💕
You should look at the magic systems in Will Wights books!! He has 3 series currently: travelers gate, elder empire, and cradle which is his most popular
Too bad you didn’t mention the Oathbreakers of Dunharrow in Middle-Earth, who broke their promise to fight for Isildur and Gondor. That’s an oath I remember pretty well too.
Wonderful ideas! I'm inspired. And of all the years of skillsshare commercials I've seen, you're the only one who has prompted me to do it! Bravo! And thank you for that course!
Crazy you made this fairly recently, I finished book 2 of this series like a week ago lol. Such an amazing series with unique power systems.
My favorite example of magic promises is that in Eragon, where Braum makes a bird to sit on his finger. When Eragon asked how he did it, Braum answered " I promised not to harm it in the Grey Language. " Eragon then asks " what if you decided to harm it?" . Baum then answers : " I wouldn't be able to, even if I wanted with all my will." Edit: This means the bird could actually deny sitting on Braum's finger if it didn't wish to.
Oaths? The first words that left my lips were. Life before Death, Strength before Weakness, Journey before Destination. HA! I LOVE THAT CALLED IT BEFORE THE 1:00 mark XD
LET'S GOOOOO
Fixed the mistake with spelling Stength.
omg i love all your art and your soft narration ♡♡♡
Such a good series, still looing forwards to the next one
I could listen to this dude for hours
The classic vampire trope of having to be invited in is another example of a promise kept giving the recipient some magical reward Edit: here's a memory based magic system- you make an agreement and are told of some punishment or evil to befall you at some point. If you ever forget it, it happens to you.
As for a promise based system, id prob make it similar to what we see in anime like Hunter X Hunter or Jujutsu Kaisen. The idea of having an unbreakable vow or stipulation added to your power in order to specialize it to an almost scalpel like level is unto itself a promise based magic system though in JJK's case they can range from being menial dips in power to having the magic work its effect on you. To make this work id likely have it that any mage that wishes to really attain power must make a direct promise to aspect of reality, tether it to the point of a contract in exchange for the use of power. The idea would be akin to lawyering, but the amount of obligation to an ideal is directly correlated to how much power they attain. this is like having the power of prophecy, but having to speak in riddles, be blinded or maimed as to not be able to enjoy your gift etc. As to make a world setting where anyone can do this however and you run into an issue of not only having every joe and nancy being able to hurl bolts like zeus and you run into the issue of no way people being able to hav a civil society when everyone is a demigod and assuming the principle of MAD works out. My hero does this and its weird to assume that so little of the population is fraying and it takes an all for one or shigaraki or stain to set it off when it should be perpetually on pins and needles, all might or endeavour ot other characters be damned. In short this is a hard system to crack and ill likely take a bit but i could possibly get it to work with time.
you're a really good story teller i could listen to you for hours
I absolutely love Stormlight Archive, a magic system based entirely around traumatized people rising up from the shards of their shattered mental states
I have something similar in my superhero comic universe thing. People gain superpowers from mental and/or physical trauma, which is the "awakening."
@@FuraFaolox That's basically what happens in another series by the same author, Mistborn, where people get their powers by "snapping" which is caused by trauma, assuming you have the potential in the first place. Attempts to find the people who do have potential can kill anyone who doesn't have it.
I started reading the Stormlight Archive last month and now all of my favorite KZheadrs are discussing it. lol
Who else if I may ask?
@@vergil1us Me too, please! I want to know too!
The title made me think of the Stormlight Archive, and I'm so happy to see this aspect of surgebinding be discussed!! The books even have a brief exploration of what happens with contradictory promises (in Words of Radiance, if I remember right)
Your content is so good!!
Whenever magic systems are brought up I can't help but make reference to my favorite one, that comes from 2 web serials called "Pact" and the other "Pale" Promises are a big deal there too. Because the value of a practitioner's word is a big deal, to the point which all lies are punished karmically. Breaking an oath however is the biggest punishment. It's losing your magic and forgoing all your protections afforded to you by the system, even those given to people without magic, and have the universe itself hate you. Usually, unless your oathbreaking is extremely obvious, someone has to call you out for your oathbreaking. Call you forsworn. And if someone breaks their oath to you and you call them forsworn, you gain their power and their stuff (since all magical protections regarding ownership disappear from the forsworn). Depending on the oath, any person can do the forswearing, so it's not necesarilly the wronged party the one that gains that power. This is a core part of the system, but in the large scale it's a small part. Because I see this magic system as a magic system that managed to capture all magic systems. My favorite bit of it might be Implements. Basically, binding yourself to an object to make it a part of your magic and yourself. The effects whatever random object might have, you yourself reading this can start infering based on it's cultural, practical and historical characteristics. What a wand is and signifies is very different than what a deck of cards, a cup, or a simple random rock signifies and therefore what effects it will have on your magic, not to mention if they are made of unconventional materials or have extra decorations and such.
I think magic systems that embody the themes of the book are the best.
An interesting thing to remember about Stormlight Archive and other Cosmere (the greater shared universe) is that in order to have any magic at all you need a break in your soul to fit that magic in usually trauma and/or mental illness that means the only people who can hold a radiant ideal have to be people who will struggle to keep them.
LOVE this video! So indepth and well structured! 😁
9:00 There's a popular Chinese web novel called "Heaven Official's blessing" where Gods dissappear once they have no believers. The God of bad luck/plague/ misfortune appeared to have only survived for 800 years because he had just one believer who happened to be immortal. It's a gay romance, and it has a beautiful anime/manhua. The story is pretty all over the place since it was originally a web novel, but I do suggest you take a look at this story.
I’m barely 5 minutes in and you got me hooked on this book series!
It might have included more spoiler-y subjects so I understand why you didn't include it but the Heralds and the Oathpack (also from Stormlight for anyone who hasn't read it) are a cool example of what happens when a promise with so much riding on it is broken. Also a cool idea of how Shards can't break promises but humans can.
This made me think of a fantasy world where magic was tied to promises, but only if people really really meant them would anything happen. So then it’s a tradition to make a magical promise to stay devoted to your partner on your wedding day; but then you can imagine someone making the promise at the alter only for nothing to happen lol
I have no idea who you are, this is the first video I've watched from you, but it got me interested since the first second. I love the visual desings, the character design, and the narrative skills.
I've seen one of your videos, now I'm on a quest to binge watch you >:D But seriously, you interpret something just to explain it, and the way you interpret it is so cool!
Your soft-spoken nature makes you so charismatic
I just found your channel today! I love it!
A great story I think you should read is ‘Omniscient Readers Viewpoint’. It’s a webnovel from Korea and extremely fascinating. It starts off as a story about a game like magic system, but evolves into a story about what it means to be a reader, an author, and a character. The power a story has over those inside the story, and the cliches and notes most stories have. I think you might enjoy it
A really interesting theme! lov this video
Recently, I got to thinking about magic systems. Normally I just use the generic elements system, where characters can control ice, fire, etc. However, I got to thinking about a cool system to do with creation, destruction and manipulation, called Tailoring. The people who can harness Tailoring, called Tailors, perform miracles by manipulating the countless invisible threads that are woven through the world. Thanks to this channel, I'm getting a ton of cool ideas, so thank you Tale Foundry! (Note- I'm turning the idea into an animated series called Interwoven some time in the future)
The stormlight archive is one of the best series I’ve read in a long long long time.
Thank you! I know how to start my story now!
Yayy, I got one of those seats at Skillshare! Watching Dr Michell's worldbuilding series now! You're a good robot.
I'll pass your compliments on to Talebot! Be sure to come back and let us know what you thought of the classes! -Benji, showrunner
listing two of my favourite books already, thank you thank you, Neil Gaiman and Terry Pratchett are amazing.
Ooh another good example of this is how in the Percy Jackson book series, people swear upon the River Styx as their form of promise, which is basically saying "I damn my soul to drowning in eternal torment if I break this promise", and that really resonated with me as a child when the books first came out.
@ 9:20 you talk about power being received from promises made. I suggest The Land, a LIT RPG. Fantastic books and follows a similar idea
Excited to see you reading Sanderson! I hope you enjoy it as much as I did, and that you seek out the rest of Sanderson's work. There's always another secret with his books...
One of my favorite magic/power systems that work similarly is nen, and more specifically nen limitations. In HxH what a nen user does to give his abilities more potential or make them stronger is usually create limitations on what they can do with the ability, which they then can expend on with establishing the consequences if they break said limits. the best example in the manga and anime would be kurapika and his chain creation ability. In order to make his chains be more then just a regular chains he made them have unique abilities and made them unbreakable, and he did that by limiting himself with using them only for their main purpose, with the most interesting one being that the most deadly chain of all the once he have he will use only on 1 group of people. And if he will not apply to his limits it will cost his life.
ive been interested in writing my own story for a while and I am currently writing my first real, public one and this video really intrigued me, i am heavily considering adding something similar into my own story
This is such a cool concept
It really is but I especially love how in stormlight archive as you ideal strengthen and you truely believe deeper ideal you swear more oaths. The power system is completely linked to character development.
Oaths are the basis of everything. I love Stormlight and all things Brandon Sanderson. Great author
I don’t like reading or writing(I prefer math and programming) but my girlfriend does and even majors in it, I think some books you mention she would like to read(although I know giving a book can be difficult depending on if they like the book or not), but I’ve always liked give to her books as she enjoys them so much. I also may have put her onto your channel
This is so inspiring, i really liked this video
remember in 10 years that I love you and your content