Master Modes: The Only Right Answer
This video is a brief summary of the thoughts Delta and I have about the changes coming with master modes. This video will have more of a focus on a multi-crew platform as that is how we play the game, but there is a lot of important information in here about light fighters too.
Bear with the cheesy intro as I still have not acquired a proper intro and outro yet. I wanted to post this video a little sooner (days ago), but it has taken way more time to produce than I thought.
Music by Delta-Scorpii
Be sure to catch me when I am live over on twitch! On a side not though I am having trouble with OBS atm and cannot stream (I can record fine) Star Citizen. If anyone has any ideas let me know in the comments.
specs:
i7 12700KF
32GB DDR4 3600 (running at 3200)
RX 6800XT
game and OBS are on a M.2
Running Win 11
Timestamps:
0:00 Intro
00:42 Combat differences
02:12 Effects of Lower Speeds
03:55 Evasion and Acceleration Changes
05:21 CIG and Feedback
06:12 Effects of Weapon Changes
06:57 Problems for Multi-Crew
08:40 Cap and Sub-Cap Ship Destroyers
09:18 The Problem with Numbers
10:23 Improve the Problems Master Modes Tries To
12:05 Different Flight Modes
13:16 How to Improve Accessibility
13:53 Review and Final Remarks
Something else I wanted to comment on but forgot about are ships like the A1 and Zues MKII, when it comes to the game. These two ships will almost certainly be unusable as they will not have the shielding, Hull HP, maneuverability, and defensive weapon damage output (due to the firing cone) to defend themselves against a LF in MM let alone two or more.
I think that's fine for the a1 because it's just supposed to be a bomber but overall yah master modes seems problematic
@@shadowxgames3606 "defensive" weapon damage is what I am referring to, I agree that it should not be able to compete with LF as it is still a bomber.
in what situation do you mean? like in a straight crewed A1 versus a LF duel? I don't think the A1 or Zeus are meant to be dogfighting LFs. When it comes to multicrew fighters to take on LFs, I believe that's the realm of the Hurricane, Scorp, etc.
What does this commentary mean to me as a Connie with cargo? Not saying this is a bad argument, but just a fighter meta centered discussion that barely considers the ecology as a whole.
The a1 will not be able to defend itself in order to flee. it is not meant to challenge a LF but the turret is supposed to be able provide enough DPS to allow the ship to flee, or eliminate a lower tier target. @@_rustyxnails
I am by no means an ace dogfighter and despite having done a lot of PVP in many other games, most Star Citizen PVPers will roll over me at my current skill level. Despite that though, I still think the current LIVE flight model absolutely destroys Master Modes on account of MM just completely sucking the big one for almost too many reasons to list. It actually reminds me of original *_Afterburner_* ffs. lol Everything in this video is accurate based on my experience with MM so far. Hopefully this gets through to CIG.
You need to submit feed back through account on the site we all need to tell them over and over till the fix or remove it
somebody needs to show CIG this. this video is absolute facts
Yall make it happen, share it on twitter and tag CIG. A1 made a very similar video yesterday about this from the LF point of view, where ours is from a HF/Multi-crew POV as that is all we do. its great to see that POV but I think the dual feed like what we did is the nail in the coffin. Here is a link to his video: kzhead.info/sun/lLSyg9pve4V7mWw/bejne.html
it was shared at spectrum ( feedback ) category. it got some likes. But we can always share it more in other categories from time to time.
but its fallen off page to older pages now after 10 days.
Whats odd is that CIG pulled my posting of the vid and put it in the "Creative" category instead of the feedback category. @@user-xi2oaz8fu2z.
Please CIG listen to this !
Thank you for your break down, I definitely will post this video everywhere.
The removing of bed logging then master mode what are they trying to do
Good video that describes many of the master modes issues. The shield mechanics you propose is almost exactly what we had prior to 3.14 when CIG started messing up the game.
This scorp gameplay is so juicy. Good content and I agree, the old flight mode was more punishing but more enjoyable, fair and natural
Excellent analysis with practical implications and counter-points. I'm hopeful that CIG does indeed see this and take your thoughts into consideration.
This is a good video. There are other issues that could be addressed regarding MM, but the essential points seem to have been analyzed properly.
Thank you for this! I agree 100%. MMs are a deal breaker for me.
100% agree. what can we do about it, it's aweful.
this video highlights how simple it would be to fix some of the ship classes issues, especially big multicrew vessels. the simple argument that giving bigger ships higher top speed and faster shield recovery would make a world of difference in combat without sacrificing the very rewarding current flight model. sadly they seem deadset on pushing master modes to fix the games problems.
Good video! I spent the last two years training for pvp in SC and I've constantly felt like there's room to improve and learn. Where in live I could sink hours into mastering the skill of a perfect merge, in MM I fly around in nav, press a button to merge, empty my mag, and then press a button to leave. I only feel like I'm flying when I'm in nav mode. The loss of 45s and tricoording also gutted the beautiful positional combat you get with a rectangular velocity space. I think the main issue stems from them treating atmospheric flight like an afterthought. The whole of space combat should have been balanced in contrast to a well designed atmo model with control surfaces. At this point, when they add control surfaces, they'll have barely any room to drop the speeds in atmo and keep any kind of positioning or sense of flight.
We have been talking about this too, atmo is going to be weird. It's almost like they might not have been able to get atmo working right with the current flight model so they knee capped everyone, but that's just a theory and has no facts to defend itself.
Yeah, this makes sense and I agree.
Really good video. Appreciate the nuance and genuine tone. Not enough of that going around lately. I get the "less accessible to new players" angle, and while the idea has some merit, it's very obvious to see how much more accessible combat will be now. There are so many people, some that have played SC for years, who just can't get the hang of dogfighting, and feel so punished by failure that they became hopeless and quit. The learning curve and overall model is just incredibly intuitive with MM, so a lot of those people are now having more fun flying with MM in AC alone. I'm not, but they are, and those people make up a much larger part of the playerbase than people like me. Not to mention the swathes of new players in the future who will have a really great starting point now. Yeah the ceiling is lower, way lower, but the old model is literally ridiculous. I spent my first year in SC dominating PU servers solo in a C8X. It's an actual joke. So it's clearly a much needed change, and net positive for the game, but definitely does need some tuning. Also, a whole set of other systems are set to come in within the next year or so like Maelstrom, Engineering, etc. so plenty of opportunities to raise that ceiling back up in different ways. Just sayin.
So after all these years, and all this money, they will stop thinking outside the box. Here is your character creator, be who you wanna be in the verse…. I watched the Avenger 1 video back when it come out, he had concerns about all these points and it is exactly how I feel after playing 3.23. Thank you for the video!
Most scary part is I'm loosing hope here because this situation looks like the Marketing team decided to change vision of star citizen from realistic Newtonian flight model into arcade model similar to eve-valkyrie like many other space-sims out there and that's terrible, star citizen was special in this regard but looks like they want to abandon vision and change the course to appeal for average joe and sell it on a massive scale, you've addressed many problems and gave great example how to solve raming with regenartive shields I can't understand CIG doesn't implement changes that makes logical sense instead they cause suffering with such a low speeds and make you unable to manuever/evade in combat just to make angry combat pilots they are becoming sitting ducks and it's dps race in many cases ... i don't even want to play it and if we will be stuck with this I will have to uninstall it cause that's something I can't handle anymore that's how bad it is :( :(
Yeah, MM has really crushed our interest in the game. Even playing live rn feels not fun as we know it will be going away and there is no longer even a reason to fly like we do.
Honestly just boycotting it man, if they're going to ruin everything we already have, i'm not playing it. Selling ships costing hundreds to thousands of dollars & this is what we get in return, I give up.
I just got into wave 1 PTU for 3.23 and I'm ready to quit the game. I didn't do any AC master modes. Now, not only do I have to learn master modes, I ahve to learn the whole new HUD, which is underwhelming. I honestly think the people at CIG have never played many space sims or flight sims. The loss of a cruise control for a K&M guy like me makes landing at at a station a chore. I guess I could put my landing gear down to further limit possible speed. Still, I hate the master modes flight model, as you talked about in your video. I agree there was a problem with the over tricording light fighters, but I don't think the current MM is the answer at all. My suggestion would be use the power triangle. From 33% to 100% engine begins to increase your above SCM speed, but proportionately reduces shields (immediately, not after they are hit) and regen, as well as reducing weapons. 100% engine is require to quantum, at which point the player has no weapons power and no regen of shields.
Great video.
I hear what you are saying, and I have similar feelings. However cig will not throw the years of master modes dev time away so soon. Once it hits the pu, problems that are suspected will either show their face, or we get proved wrong. Either way there will be changes until it hopefully gets tuned properly.
Yeah, I doubt they will make any major changes to it before release. The best thing we can hope for is them to update it shortly after release.
@@Lambda-ScorpiiYeah but they won't push it to the ptu so we can't test it before it goes out to the pu. When I say this to other people, they say well the game is in alpha and the whole game is to test it. But when MM comes out to live, I think there will be a loss in players, and there are going to be bugs like before, but instead of working on them in the ptu, they said fuck it, and are going to push it to live. People tend to forget that the load on AC is a whole lot less than in the PU. So i think it's going the break the game or the servers are going to take a hit and i hope they stay over the weekend to fix it or, they are going to lose all their "testers" for the game. Also, why didn't they do server meshing with the new master modes yet, it has bugs that they can't test because they won't have the players to do it till live.
CIG has thrown years of all types of shit away and restarted time and again.
Just hit the PTU for me and I absolutely despise it, and I was not a PVPer. I tried Arena Commander and got rolled in seconds by a couple of NPC Auroras while in a 325. That would have never happened in Live. I could still do VHRTs, even if I sucked at PVP.
MM feels like shit... didn't want to say it, but ffs it's not what made me like the game. Completely the opposite...
this
Here's a suggestion I have to CIG, make flight instructor a profession! I personally would absolutely love to do that profession.
i was trying to explay it in current live its feeleng like microsoft flight simulator .... in mastermodes it feels like microsoft pinball i fly now for 4 month and i uld like to go up in dificulty like a mix of dcs and vr vtol not playing mincraft i agree in almmoste oll of ur statments
I wanted to believe in MM at the start. Gaining some weapon ranges back was cool. However being so slow makes it feel bad. I also fly with my dedicated gunner most the time and they said the same thing. Basically just kinda aim forward and hold the trigger in MM vs being dynamically adjusting and lead turning and merging to get them position. Hopefully they figure it out in 2 months 😂
Same, we were so looking forward to it, but then it turns out it is really bad in everything except LF which is the exact opposite of why they MM in the first place
I don't comment often on yt but I have to say, Master Modes is an abomination of a flight model - not only in combat. Industrial ships are f'ed without shields in NAV mode when they come out of quantum at a OM-marker and get jumped. Let alone how annoying the mining loop has become with the constant need to switch between NAV and SCM mode because mining mode is tied to SCM mode. This new flight model took inspiration from Elite Dangerous and added a whole lot of tedium and bad design decisions to it.
These are the things I really want CIG to see, people who never engage with videos or sub coming out and speaking their minds.
@cig
Good point about larger ships should have lower acceleration but higher top spead than small ships. Your point about the Retaliator and Ion being less good at hit and run is fair. I wonder though if CIG could tune these ships to have the strategy work again. Your point about master modes lacking tricording and having a circular max rotation shape. I can see this certainly does lower the skill ceiling. I'm undecided if this is a bad or good thing. Very good point about turret gunners becoming far less of an advantage with master modes. Though turret gunners in large slow ships are still of high value. For smaller ships that used to do actually do dog fighting or sometimes jousting its a loss of team gameplay. Ramming. Again CIG can balence this collision damage and keep their master modes. Till then it's painful. Your point about space flights becoming an FPS/Star Field type fight is fair. Personally I really like the improved visuals being closer up in master modea. And I like the lower skill ceiling as it was starting to look like a sweaty pro fest. But CIG have taken this too far. As being in a Hawk and glueing myself to the rear of a singly manned Constellation was fun as hell. Solution: I think the solution here is two exactly equal ships should play like an FPS slugfest. I.e. hard to disengage and hard to really dog fight. But master modes should allow a significantly size missmatched space fight to feel like a dog fight - where the smaller can get behind the larger. But the larger can joust and disengage witg its higher top speed. And the larger with its lack of need to face the enemy should require gunners to be effective. The ballence CIG should improyon is, how sized missmashed should a flight be before skilful dog fighting is the meta.
They did this to make their AI better. 😀 I've been playing eptu, and MM has certainly taken the fun out of it You are correct about arbitrarily limiting combat speed being SO unrealistic! They need to raise the speed across the board and then make ships different and adjustable.
This is the way I came to this game because I believe that I can fly the way I imagine a real spaceship would fly it feels like that's been taken away now I wonder if what I'm trying to do is even possible in the game been playing for 2 months
I hate to break it to you, more than likely no. You can no longer fly the way we do and be even close to viable, it just simply isn't possible. MM feels more akin to GTAV airplane/Starfield ship physics than it does Live, and I am not joking. It is really disappointing.
@@Lambda-Scorpii I played Elite dangerous for 10 years that's what I was leaving to come to Star Citizen
yeah, stories like this seem to be a reoccurring theme. I hope CIG sees all of this and takes a step back. @@SeerreuS
I also gave up Elite for SC.
100%. I'm of the opinion that master modes should be thrown in the garbage, right alongside hover mode. if they want to improve the flight model, do so with tweaks to the current flight model. to me and many others, it has felt good since it was implemented. I'm not sure I'm even interested in this game any more if master modes becomes the new permanent flight model. and aside from dog fighting, master modes makes racing feel like shit. I'll even go as far as saying landing mode sounds stupid to me, there is already a throttle limiter if you need it, and I like going in for hot landings and bleeding speed at the last second, it's satisfying. master modes removes anything fun/skill based from the game for me.
Constructive and on point, thank you! Greets from germany --> eXpG_Pham_Nuwen :-D
Great take!
Damn, I wish I could like this video a thousand times!!!
when i first started SC just over a month ago, i didnt bother getting the T1600M out, so got the controller out, the amount of crap bound to it nearly shut my brain down.
Yeah, it's kinda mind boggling, idk how my bro does it. there are too many binds even for on foot for controller.
With limits of controller buttons. Rebind most of it with a priority on what you will need in a panic situation,. Combat for example. Then with what you have left you can use for the more common controls. You can also create double taps on buttons to open more options. But do it so that is comfortable and intuitive for you. Don't listen to others to much. Many of the bindings can be mapped to the same button without conflict. Its possible to use left shoulder as shift function. Right shoulder might work to. But I haven't tested that yet.
tbh i wanna see cargo ship in this kind of convo...its always light fighers and cap ships... oh well
cargo ships will be completely ruined by MM as well. I am a PvPer and a Pirate so I and since I need to know everything about the target ship, which in the latter case is cargo ships, I can tell you, CIG made it even easier for pirates and even more unfun for cargo haulers. With the Mantis changes incoming in 3.23 you will be stuck at SCM 150 m/s without shields or weapons if you were in Nav mode earlier. You can't escape and are a completely sitting duck. A Mantis pilot without any skill can now easily kill a C2. I'm not saying that it was particularly difficult for pirates in 3.22 and earlier, in the contrary it was still way too easy, just a tiny bit harder than in MM. However, instead of improving the situation, MM made it slightly worse. And considering the actual cargo hauling gameplay: I imagine it must be really frustrating to have to wait 10s each time when switching mode and trying to quantum travel. This is very tedious and unfun. PvPers and PvEers have to unite against Master Modes.
Back to Elite Dangerous then?! :o(
I've been playing since the hanger modules came out. The first thing that really annoyed me was how short your detection ranges are for ships. Why can't my radar see a prospector further than 5km away? Then the missiles were crap. It all was just very immersion breaking for me. I feel like these super slow speeds will just completely pull me out of the game. I guess we're getting them regardless so its just going to be testing. One common complaint I've seen is how fights currently won't come to a conclusion since you can just tri-cord away when your shields are low. Maybe the fix for that would just be faster and more deadly missiles instead of making the spaceships slower than actual current day aeroplanes
Good video overall. I agree with your points for the most part, though I wish you had been a bit more specific in some places, and later in the video it is unclear whether your combat footage is from Live or Master Modes. The other thing I would tell you is that while making videos is great and all, if you want to get CIG's attention you need to make a post on Spectrum. Don't just post your video to Spectrum, take the highlights of your video, make good use of bold, underline and bullet points, and CIG will listen to you. Seriously, I've only posted on Spectrum like 4 times, and my concerns have been directly addressed at least twice. I post in the "Gameplay" section. It's the perfect section for most ideas/feedback.
This has been posted four times on spectrum and I have not posted it once to "feedback" because I didn't need to. Also, each clip is labeled with live or master modes in the top left corner. The Scorpius is also not in MM so that should be a dead giveaway with the label being included for extra measure. I really don't know how much more specific we can get; we provide very detailed video evidence to compliment what is being stated in almost every section of the video.
This. Everything you said is what ive been saying. Its blowing my mind feedback isnt holding the release back. Its like they are forcing us to except the suck.
Honestly just boycotting at this point, they've essentially destroyed 90% of the reasons I play this game in a single update & they are fully aware other players feel the same.
its a mediocre change that makes CIG seem completely incompetent for taking this many years to develop.
The one mistake cig will make is making flight combat feel like a lacking AAA game
Whah whah whah.
CIG is destroying the game for people who will play this game for less than a year.
It's actually the opposite. They're making it more accessible, improving player retention.
I would rather lose the top 1% of sweaty pvp'ers for 10% more people showing up and enjoying the game. Guess what, it's star citizen, not starfighter simulator. There is SO much more to this game than spaceship combat Sure there is less depth in MM right now because it's a foundation where they build the armor system, retune the weapons, introduce engineering, maelstrom, remove the hp system for hull structure and so much more. Don't buy into the doom and gloom attitude of AvengerOne, he doesn't like it more because he has mastered a broken flight system, which is honestly mostly fun because you figured out how the game is broken and how to use that against average and below average pilots where you feel like a God. I am no A1 but damn I can at least abuse the system to get away from a 1v10 situation, mostly because jank and server desync, not skill. The new system makes it so he is no longer the hero of the story, where when knowing you are outnumbered means you have to weigh your options. Where teamwork and strategy allow you to come on top, not just stringing out the fight across 40km of distance. I have been in a few scraps in the pu, between huge groups and more often than not a 1.5 hour fight sees maybe 10 or so ships exploding when it's a 25v25 ish and that's not fun. 5 seconds of focus on one target suddenly means you are 20-30 km away from the main fight because the insane speeds. It's less about the team and more about delaying until your ace pilot shows up to land a killing blow, but that doesn't always work as a flick of the wrist and suddenly 22 gs kick in and the target is 5 km away and spooling. MM is needed to integrate the REST of the ships in for viability, not just the gladius, arrow and hornet ( only hornet due to stupid bugs)
I mean dumbing down the customizable, engineering system & "star fighter sim" mechanics IS killing this game though; yeah it's star citizen & theres so much more going on & thats exactly why they shouldnt be dumbing down the areas where its good, for tourists/all the countless people who will gravitate towards fps & ground combat when its more fleshed out, as many will. I have countless friends who cba with flying in games & will be fully sunk into this when fps combat is better & I know this is a similar story for lots of us. Lowering the skill ceiling of dog fighting when so many players will gravitate towards ground combat, is essentially gonna drive good pilots away & stagnate the one part of the game thats actually working as is & also leave all these incoming fps players with less pilots, dropships, air support etc. etc. Because we've been handed a downgrade of what we had, which is always incredibly hard to come back from. Like I seriously dont get what the engineering system is even good for, when we've been handed a rather binary way of using our ships. My initial thought was they'd be extra modes on top of what we already had, with increased shields/gunnery mechanics for SCM & some speed buff/intermediate QB for NAV, not a butchering of the beauty we've already fallen in love with.
@@redslate yo black rock called they want their soulless ideology back
@@schlagzahne6741would you look at that pathologising the minority high skill population
This guy a genius or something?
?
No - the jargon will lead you to believe that but even as someone who's been fighting in AC since the dogfighter module was released I couldn't follow half of what he was talking about.
This is not jargon, its physics. Just because you play AC does not mean you have a strong grasp of real physics. So if that is what yall are referring to then, that is your lack of scientific knowledge. @@Super-id7bq
I thought it was really impressive how he presented his arguments. Very well spoken with an extremely strong grasp of what how and why these things matter.
Yes.
Why should larger ships have higher top speed? They are bigger. Bigger should mean slower or what's the point of being smaller?
They shouldn't at all. They should be slower and tankier so they can take a kicking while their turrets do the work. The problem is he's looking at all of this through SQB and not objective based combat. It's like BuzzCutPsycho's rant about the Hammerhead - all his feedback is based on a mode that was designed for dogfighting and has no objectives. You put a crewed HH in Master Modes over JT and that thing will absolutely murder any fighter than comes near it.
Giving larger ships higher top speed would turn multi ship combat into something resembling naval battles BEFORE the invention of combat effective aircraft.
@@Super-id7bq you clearly haven't seen how poorly Turrets operate right now in MM.
@@ThomasD66 Sounds pretty bad.
you clearly have not seen A1's video where he and four other Buccs destroy a HH in MM ;without taking any damage on 3/4 Buccs and minimal damage on 1/4. @@Super-id7bq
This video should have 100k views... It's pathetic what CIG is doing. Concierge since 2013, no ace pilot but loving to fly and improving my skills aka loving games where skill is the limit, and not some artificial unrealistic blockers to make it more accessible for players who gonna hop to the next big game within a few months anyway. Same shit happened to Battlefield when EA tried to get all the COD kiddies over, downhill since. MM is like Crazy Chicken in space. Never had so little fun in SC the past 10y like now.
CIG fk'd up royaly when they let John Pritchitt go. He did all the pre-3.0 flight model.
The problem is they took our money to make a certain type of game and now after 10+ years they decide they are making a different game. In the end They become no different than EA, the company CR use to say was the metric for bad. Honestly, with the state of the world what do they think is going to happen now, who wants to continue backing and funding a project that is literally shooting itself in the foot. I been here for such a long time that i know there is no stopping MM, and as usual, CIG is ignoring all feedback.
Dude why should a weightless big ship with no drag in space with huge engines that can get it out of gravity accelerate slower it would be the opposite the ship with the most thrust force would be the fastest in space to turning would be slower but straight line reclaimer and 890j should go 0 to max speed faster than any other ship in space now slowing them down would need to flip the ship to get full get same slow down speed but no small ship should be able to match the thrust output so should be left in the dust in space. irl pirates attack a reclaimer it would just go full throttle and be gone max speed in 1-2 sec by the time the other ship hit full speed be way out of range and hitting qt drive as soon as they where seen on radar
They're not weightless, they still have mass you have to push to get moving. More mass = bigger engines needed = more fuel = more mass
Ya know the "confused math" gifs - that was basically me trying to work out what on earth you were trying to say about the lower speeds lol. I like your take but honestly none of this on-paper theory crafting matters to me - all that matters is if it's fun and so far SQB MM is infinitely more fun than group combat in the legacy model. It's closer, light fighters feel faster, there's more control, less dice rolling on the merge and way more onus on situational awareness, team work is more important and ship roles are more defined (honestly really surprised to see you say the opposite as interceptors, mediums and heavies are just slightly different tuned fighters in legacy). Plus the SCM+ space being tied to boost gives some much needed energy management that's beyond "turning around". I really don't get where anyone is getting this idea that it's arcady though - I feel people always through that out to describe things they don't like. Once you've spent a good amount of time in there the geometry is barely any different to live now they slightly reduced the aim assist and ramp in on boost a little bit (they reduced it a lot but split the difference). I'm constantly in rate fights and so long as I used decoupled I can push on a back strafer (coupled has an input issue that makes you lose velocity when you add strafe). Huge step forward in my opinion - I'd just give the Gladius a bit more on strafes (especially down), lower TTK over all to make trading less incentivised (that's half the reason people are not playing evasively) and have them spend some time bringing jerk back into the game. Once they've done that, g's could go up across the board about 10-15% easy and it would feel smooth but more flight oriented. None of the issues are with master modes though, it's all just tuning but people are trying to throw the baby out with the bath water. You're right about the numbers issue but again - all of that is resolved with very minor tuning tweaks.
Master modes is 100% intended to make the game dumbed down for mass adoption. So they can sell more copies to a wider audience and not have to deal with a bunch of people asking for a refund because the game is too hard. Unfortunately the people who paid for the game to exist backed a skill based game. I can ask for a refund now though on the legitimate reason that they promised us one thing and sold us another.
Frankly it hasn't made the game easier for me. It is so counter-intuitive. Maybe it is better for people with sticks but for a K&M person like me who used to to VHRTs in a Hornet Ghost, I got stomped by a couple Auroras in 3.23 AC. I could barely fly my ships in live.
Honestly they should make the battles wider not smaller increasing engagement to 3k so that we can get those nice star wars looking battles
_Star_ _Wars_ is close-proximity combat. That's what CIG is aiming for.
You can barely maneuver 2 ships in 800 meters 1600m is the common range 4 ro 8 fighters swarming another small ship is impossible without a collision. The only way is if all ships are going in the same direction as in a chase but even then a change in direction is still a collision.
100% agree
I got to try MM not long ago and I agree with you on a lot of these points. MM is for sure not the correct direction for the game everyone expected.
The only point I disagree with is where master modes is partially a solution to server performance. CIG has spent long enough pushing the limits as to what they're tech can do, so now they must make a game with what they currently have. Unless you can propose a current solution to server ping and degradation, there is no reason to use that as a point against master modes. I also feel way more engaged in master modes than what you suggest. It is still way more engaging than Starfield, and is still waiting on engineering. CIG may have a bad reputation, but they seem to be aiming in the right direction now. They also have access to way more data on these topics than any of us do. I say let the painters paint, and judge when it is actually done.
Did you really have to rotate so much? Made me dizzy.
time to spin more
I love the direction of a less hardcore ship combat, but it needs to be polished. For the past few years, the space combat either felt monotone against A.I.-s or annoyingly sweaty against players. Win or lose, I was not having fun. Hunting in packs and defending in packs is great on paper but with fully crewed multi-crew ships, some gunners are stuck waiting for combat, bored out of their minds 90% of the time. An enjoyable middle-ground is necessary I think, or the game will alienate a very large part of the community. Realism is nice and all but CIG has to find "the fun" factor where all of the above is engaging in the PU.
I do see where you are coming from but I play this game solely as gunner and I feel quite the opposite. if your pilot and the gunner(s) have good communication and compatibility then there is really never a dull moment. Most of the time when we go up against another multi-crew team be it a Hurricane, Scorpius, Vanguard, etc, we don't lose. This is because flying nose on in these fighters is just simply the wrong move unless up against a large enough opponent. This is made possible given that the flight model in Live is more of a sim flight model whereas MM has become more of a game flight model, which is the wrong move for the scale of this game.
Nice appeal to emotion arguments.
MM ruins the space flight experience and removes the depth of flight. Whatever combat changes on weapons and firing cones is secondary to me, even the speeds to a certain degree, but the fact you can overboost the speed limit now and then get slowed down giving you the feel of atmospheric drag, and the removing of tri-cording and tri-rotating are killing the space flight experience. So do we really want a arcadey combat, staring at each other and see who has the better ship/loadout? 10:25 exactly, I came to SC from Elite for that reason.
Yes, the current MM flightmodel is all over the place, nothing fits together. And it doesn't feels good&inuitive. I will not go into the discussion about realsim. Because realsim would be like the TV series the expanse. (no fun). Its needs to fit to the game and must be fun and long term engaging, while not overwhelming. Everything else is unimportant. Max speed of ships is not so important as most people think. What is important is the relationship between these max speeds and all other values (e.g. weapon ranges, acceleration, turnrates) and the max speed differences between shiptypes and the turnrates of ships and turrets. But yes, the current max speed (without boost) feels to slow. But 1200 was far to high. Max speed is to be determined by the skale of Gameworld (ships, asteriods, star bases etc.) In MM now we have far to long weapon ranges, far to high bullet speeds, to high differences between boost and not boost. The accelerations&turnrates are completly off the charts. And on top they added autoaim+conefire to this mess, before finding a base for balancing. Believe it or not, Mastermodes was a step in the right direction, but they messed it up completly. You can re-balance mastermodes to become fun&longterm engaging again. But they need to rethink many aspects and values. And no, bigger ships shouldn't have higher max. speeds. Interceptors, bombers, LF etc. need to be able to intercept these ships. It would feel awful if my bomber can't catch an Idris in SCM and i have to switch into Nav mode. Turrets need to have 20% more weapon range as fighter and firecones need to be adjustable by the player in turrets. This will give turrets the tools to deal with fighters and makes them fun. Tri-cording should possible, but only to a certain amount. It was far to powerful and cheesy in the old model. And yes, shield just always regenerate.
Relatively new player perspective here: i have been able to try both old model and MM, and i like MM much more. It just feels better. So, i am pretty happy with what is going on.
I think more "Arcady" is needed. Being able to outperform a Player based on your skill level would send almost all players to other games. It's like as if CS wouldn't have a rank system and Global's would play against Silvers, there wouldn't be a lot of silvers playing anymore... PVP would then only be something a small group of people would participate in. This game is just not a Spaceflight SIM it's StarCitizen. As more and more non combat features come online I thinks this will become even more apparent. Maybe now you can't see it that much but when StarCitizen gets closer to what it's meant to be you will need something that evens the playing ground. I'd completely agree with you if we were talking about a Spaceflight SIM but in the case of StarCitizen there will have to be some shortcomings in order to make it fun for everybody. Maybe there could be a separate mode in AC maybe even with a ranking system? Almost like a second game.
"Being able to outperform a Player based on your skill level would send almost all players to other games." no it wouldn't. Runescape has no defined ranking system, and I don't see that losing a lot of players. Warzone 3 dropped SKBMM and it seems to be doing just fine having all different types of players in one server. PVP should not be a fair fight, for a fair ship-ship combat environment there is PVE. when a player accepts a bounty there should be that randomness of is this guy going to wipe me before I get any shots off or am I going to do that to my target. In live there is currently a "ranking" system for PVP bounties, look at the value of the bounty, if is 35k chances are they are very good as that means they have not died. This should be higher though that way people know just how dangerous the target is. For people like my bro and I who have max CS for a very long time the bounty should be something like 100k, so that new players don't meet their demise in a matter of a few seconds but can chose an "easier" target that is like 35k and lower.
The game died for me basically with 3.14 when they removed instant regen for shields.
Good!
That's a lot of conjecture based on the first-pass of a new system...
wait until all the ships are available before you make any assessment.thats all im saying. the meta is gunna change in a massive way ,and not in the way the "big ship" guys think it is. be careful what you wish for. :)
The problem for me is that y'all keep saying this or that scenario is typical but don't have the data that CIG does to back it up. We don't know in what scenarios you're perceiving these patterns or how aware you are that it matters. Like, what I'm hearing is that being a gunner is MORE satisfying, not less. We're just battling with anecdotes filtered through our own values and biases. We añso don't know how changes in component choice and engineering will effect all this. 🤷🏿♂️
SC has always been an arcade game, nothing it does its sim or sim like, and their fights, on all interactions since live PU have been arcade, you are fighting pewpew WWII style at 1200ms (a limited speed) whit limited ranges, orbital warfare should be more like shooting people btwn 72.000km and 5000km, heavily relying on electronics warfare and orbital mechanics warfare. Bringing "gib realism" to SC its like WT players akisng for DCS realism, is not part of SC and if ever used it could kill the game, guys, you couldn't even take hover mode, a basic hover mode based on real chopper mechanics lol
Strongly disagree. It sounds like this opinion comes from a player who either plays a lot of flight sims, and enjoys it, or put a lot of time into the current flight model in SC. I do not believe this is representative of the SC community as a whole. While I feel sorry for players that invested a lot of time into the current flight model, it needed to change. It was a terrible experience for 90% of players in SC. I had countless friends give up on SC because the space combat was soo terrible. They weren't stubborn like me, and continue to play. In the current flight model, most of the time, you can't even see what your shooting at. Also, to have a real dog fight, you usually need to fly at SCM speeds anyways. Finally, the pip just doesn't work. If you aim at the pit, and fire, you should hit your target. Pip wiggling is an exploit, not a skill. I don't think MM is the perfect solution, and I have concerns about how they will implement certain aspects, but it is more enjoyable to most of the SC player base than the current flight model. I learned my lesson about getting too attached to any one aspect of the game, because I know it will change. I was good at dog fighting in the original flight model, but they changed it. I was upset, but got over it. Give CIG a chance.
This is actually the only "sim" I play, and I am not a pilot. As for seeing an opponent, you can absolutely see people even when the target is out of target range, look for disruptions in the stars, that is one of the things I like the most about SC there is not an icon over players every minute. In this video you can see we have to maneuver out of SCM speeds numerous times in order to close or merge with a target. PVP is not supposed to be something that everyone can excel at, you should have to practice to be able to fight with highly skilled people. If one does not want to put the time into learning how to fly/fight then that is what PVE is for. Also, PVP is something with a wide skill gap, you can be new a eliminate targets at your same skill level; you can also find players who will beat you and remain unchallenged. This iteration of MM is just plain and simple far too slow with zero regard to the people who actually partake in PVP in exchange for the masses.
I've never played a flight sim and I quit sc for 8 years and this is my first time playing live's flight model, I'm not good at live's flight model or used to it. the master modes model is very similar to the one from when I quit and is familiar to me. I feel the same way about Master Modes as the creator.
People make broad generalizations about what other people think. I’m not a PvP buff. I’m not digging MM.
>hates space sims >willingly plays a space sim "wow i hate this" Bro what did you expect? Unironically baffled by your actions.
@@Lambda-Scorpii Okay, so sounds like you come from the category of: spent a lot of time on the current flight model, and is upset they are changing it. I get it, it sucks. I wish I hadn't spent a lot of time learning a shitty system either. I think that you believe the current system isn't great either. I'm just glad that CIG recognizes that the current flight model is not fun, and they are trying to improve it. I don't know if MM is the correct direction, but if it means more people can enjoy SC, I'm for it. I previously mentioned my friends giving up on SC because of the space combat. These aren't some 12 year old's who don't know how to play games. These are die hard gamers. Gamers that actually make money playing games, because they are bad ass. This isn't some weightless opinion. SC space combat needs to be fixed, and we need to come together to fix it properly. I actually wish SC would keep something similar to the current flight model, and fix a few things: Targeting: fix it. It just doesn't work. Range: Bigger weapons should have more range. Pip wiggling: fix it. It should not exist. If someone is firing on a pip, it should be a hit. period. If, gladius pilots want to use some bullshit to evade pip targeting, it should, AT THE VERY LEAST, make them pass out. Missiles: fix them. They do not work. Disruption weapons: fix them. They are broken. A 5 second volley from a gladius, should not shut down a hammer head for 5 minutes. I believe these are exploits (as I have not been able to recreate this on ANY ship), but it still has not been addressed. Multi Crew: Fix it. It does not work. 1+1=3. Not 1. It should take 10 or more gladius' to take out a fully crewed HH. Anything less is criminal. At the very least, a HH should be able to survive 4 S9. This would require A LEAST 2 eclipse, and some team coordination. The current state of multi crew is absolutely abysmal. Stealth: see targeting Look, I could go on forever. It's fucked. Seriously fucked. Anyone who thinks otherwise is a PC sweat who just wants to dominate noobs. Not cool. We all want this game to succeed. In order to do that, we need to get everyone onboard. Otherwise, we should all just go back to pad ramming. The last time I tried to use the current flight model, me and 3 friends got on arena commander. I wanted to teach them how to dog fight. I thought, maybe they're just bad (which, I'm assuming you think of me, or anyone who disagrees with you), and I just need to teach them how to tri-cord. A gladius joins. We decided to 4v1 a gladius. Never could hit him once. After about 20 minutes. We quit, and went and played much more entertaining games. The score was 48-2. He killed us 48 times. 4v1. You can make fun of us all you want....but that is unacceptable. If this is the player base you are prostrating too, you should re-think your priorities. For every 1 gladius player. 4 people will quit playing Star Citizen. You want a game to fail? This is how you do it. I would like to think that he was cheating, or using exploits. Maybe he was. But the pip wiggling alone, was enough to turn me off from the current flight model period. I leave you with this: Maybe you been a citizen long enough to know about this...but for a while, you could equip any weapon to any component slot. This was obviously unintended. But there it was....plain and simple. So, we all held JT (original JT...not this garbage they have now), each Hornet equipped with 12 size 5 M7A laser cannons. Could single shot any ship in the verse. Everyone's excuse: It's in the game, just git gud.
The amount of time we'll now have to waste even just from jump drop to the station man. 20km at 250....... Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz
wait till this guy finds out about nav mode and quantum boosting
@@ihac4568 Foot inserted, I can admit when wrong, o7.
lol, that was my thought. @@ihac4568
@@Lambda-Scorpii Still ruins hooning and racing. How you gonna nav boost in a race ship with a drive?
I never said it didn't, it ruins everything lol. I would love to try racing one day, but I know I'm going to kiss a rock, or a building. @@ttk-timetokill8392
You seriously believe this was not intended to lower the skill ceiling? WOW! The entire reason they created master modes was for EXACTLY that reason!!! You really have no clue what you are talking about!
Master Modes removes the current skill based flight in combat in favor of making combat "more accessible" to new players.
Reduces, not removes.
It 100% removes skill from the equation in favor of this shitty DPS race idiocy that MM is. @redslate
LOL, you lost me when you to tried to argue that a "DPS race" is not a dogfight. Every fight is DPS race. Firstest with the Mostest has been a military maxim for just about ever. Most real dogfights using guns end when someone achieves a firing solution. You can argue that such results are too fast to make for fun game play, but don't claim that the interaction is not a dogfight. But kudos for getting in every other pejorative buzz word.
"Every fight is DPS race." no, it is not. In live we can bring down ships in just a few seconds, there is no long TTK and relying on hull HP like there is in MM if you are skilled enough. In this video alone we show numerous times where the fight ends in just a few seconds whereas in MM you can shoot at a target for significantly longer and not destroy them. TTK should be much faster than what we have in MM and there is no arguing that.
@@Lambda-Scorpii ?? You say you want shorter TTK, fine. I agree that smaller ships should be relatively fragile. But a shorter TTK just means a shorter DPS race. But it is always a race. Because the goal is always to damage your opponent enough to knock him out of the fight before he does the same to you. Hence, combat is always a DPS race. Doesn't matter if it is bare knuckles, swords, or video game space ships, the principle is always the same.
DPS race also implies that one has the ability to even inflict damage or accurately land a shot. In Live it is easy to avoid fire by rolling over shots or strafing in a way that makes the opponent not able to pull the pip into the HUD. In MM it is Far too easy for an opponent to achieve this due to the lack of speed which in turn makes both parties rely solely on the HP pool of the ship they are in. @@ThomasD66
@@Lambda-Scorpii Ok, now we are getting closer to the truth of the matter. That some people have spent extra effort and time learning and practicing how to take advantage of particular peculiarities of the game engine - e.g. pip wiggle and are now upset that they are losing this advantage is certainly understandable. But not anything that is going to garner sympathy. They are called exploits for a reason. Complaining that it is too easy for the average Joes to score hits likewise isn't going to win any arguments about the flight model. If it easy for them, it is easy for everybody. That this has had the effect of making the here to for invulnerable suddenly vulnerable might not be great for their 'brand' but their brand is not and never will be the primary focus of this game.
This is where you are sorely mistaken, if you do not put in the time to learn how to do something at a high level, then the very thing you are trying to do should not in turn pander to your lack of ability. Also, you can make your pip move in a manner where the one firing can't hit you without exploiting the movement mechanics of the game. While it is easier for everyone to score hits on ships, it should not come down to who prayed to RNGesus the night prior. *I am using "you" as a general statement @ThomasD66
Nah MM is a lot more fun. After s lot of testning, i would 100% have MM over this shit now.
OMG, great vid, damn now I'm worried
They will keep reworking until the end of time
Man bruh they about to ruin the game
@cig