The Dark Side Of Being A Perfectionist - Oliver Burkeman
Oliver Burkeman is a journalist, a writer for The Guardian and an author.
We often find ourselves caught in a productivity spiral, feeling as though we aren’t accomplishing enough and scalding ourselves when we fall short of impossibly high bars. What drives this constant pursuit of perfection? Is it truly beneficial to continuously seek efficiency?
Expect to learn why so many of us have a ruthless obsession with being productive, the problem with trying to optimise efficiency as much as possible, why control is such a point of tension in our lives, what the relationship is between control and emotions, whether there is power in embracing your limitations instead of trying to fix them, why it’s so hard to cut ourselves some slack, how we can make writing less hard and much more…
Check out Oliver’s BBC Maestro Course - www.bbcmaestro.com/courses/ol...
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00:00 Why We’re Obsessed With Productivity
07:12 Humans Crave Control Over Their Lives
17:21 Strategies to Relinquish Control
23:47 Why You Need More Self-Compassion
28:33 The Source of Our Inner Tyrants
34:37 Recognising High-Quality Interruptions
39:27 Getting Rid of Fear as a Motivation
48:56 The Benefit of External Accountability
53:44 Accepting that Life is Messy
1:02:24 Oliver’s Work With the BBC
1:08:12 Where to Find Oliver
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Hello you savages. Get my free Reading List of 100 life-changing books here - chriswillx.com/books/ Here's the timestamps: 00:00 Why We’re Obsessed With Productivity 07:12 Humans Crave Control Over Their Lives 17:21 Strategies to Relinquish Control 23:47 Why You Need More Self-Compassion 28:33 The Source of Our Inner Tyrants 34:37 Recognising High-Quality Interruptions 39:27 Getting Rid of Fear as a Motivation 48:56 The Benefit of External Accountability 53:44 Accepting that Life is Messy 1:02:24 Oliver’s Work With the BBC 1:08:12 Where to Find Oliver
Waiting for that tim ferris podcast. 👍
Hello Chris brother I hope you are fine Few months ago you send me a number of a man who's gonna help me to quit my waiter job but unfortunately I don't have money at that time and now when I have money to invest but I lost him number so please can you send me again I need so badly to quit my waiter job
Chris, please have a talk with Mark Manson about happiness as a goal.
Btw love the talk about emotions
Better watch it in 2x speed to be more productive!
Slacker! 5x!!
1.5 is a good compromise speed between support chris and comprehend what is said
@drkrbrown so we're optimizing the productivity here? Count me in!
😂
I do this with Jordan Peterson lectures sometimes because he is very articulate and I can truly understand him at 1.5x speed. Can save a good hour if time is of the essence!
This quote hit so freaking hard, and Oliver was spot on with his opinion of it: “The common feeling that your life has not yet begun. That your present reality is a mere prelude to some idyllic future. This idealism mirage that will fade as you approach revealing that the prelude you rushed through was in fact the one to your death.”
Wow.
My goal when I graduated from university was to work less not more. I didn't care to look productive to others, I just wanted to do as little of the stuff I didn't like so I would have more time for the stuff I did like. My answer was to move to Thailand when I was 23. I was told I was wrong, deluded, and I couldn't live life the way I wanted to but here I am 70 years olds, very happy with my life and quite proud to have lead an unproductive life according to my own rules. I figure you can either get better at the game everyone else is playing or you can go off and play your own game.🙏
I'm glad I've chosen a similar path, because it sounds like yours was/is pretty fulfilling
We live in an era now of productivity and optimization and while I personally love it for self improvement, I do think we’re seeing it get into an area of obsessively unhealthy where we get too caught up into it and forget to live.
Wow Chris went through a whole productivity/happiness episode without bringing about the mexican fisherman story. Proud of you!
Highly recommend the audio format for his 4000 weeks book. Best audiobook experience I’ve had in a while.
Trying to stay productive, take notes and to do lists but I get lost in to do lists. Thanks for this. I've been really unfocused lately because there's too much to do. Decision paralysis!!!!!
follow Cal Newport! His podcast is amazing as are his books
When it comes to the idea of reminding yourself to not forget, I discovered an extremely helpful tool for capartamentalizing and prioritozing all those productivity thoughts. It involves creating a daily list of the thoughts that create anxiety and perhaps deadlines. The exercise is to immediately write the intrusive thought on that list and move on. The list can be reviewed at any time but at the end of the day, it is saved and closed. The next day the list starts over. Important items keep getting put on that lisy day after day and distractions fall to the wayside. And then, best of all, if i begin to experience anxiety over what I might have forgotten, i can go read my short journal entries of those pesky thoughts of days passed.
Listen to a ton of podcasts and this is by far one of my favorites. The amount of negative self talk that I do when I can’t stick to a plan is just ridiculous at times. Very refreshing to listen to!
4000 weeks was my favourite book of 2023. Recommended it to pretty much everyone I know 😂
same here! Bought both the audiobook and the paper version and read twice
this is one of the best episodes so far, Chris. could hear you two talking about this for hours!
I think a cool concept is meaningful productivity. We can do countless things that are “productive”, but not actually beneficial to our lives.
We can waste years not knowing how to waste hours. Just finished reading Four Thousand Weeks today, very thought provoking! I feel it's come to me at a time when I've noticed a shift in my attitude to self improvement: it's perhaps a rite of passage we need to go through. That drive we have in us to optimise things is the activation energy we need to get started and make changes in our life, but the level above that is to make peace with not trying to extract 110% out of everything. A lot of satisfaction comes from seeing things as they are, not some abstract ideal of what they should be. Have a nice weekend!
4000 weeks changed my life, I love it. Recommend the audio book
Ever considered trying to get Cleo Abram on the show? That's a conversation I would LOVE to hear!
Great insights on the productivity obsession. For entrepreneurs, remember that productivity isn't just about doing more; it's about doing the right things. Prioritize tasks that directly impact revenue and customer satisfaction over busywork that feels productive but doesn't move the needle.
Well done! This is my favorite episode of MW to date! Chris, you mentioned in the beginning of this episode as well as in other episodes that you need to learn how to feel emotions because you presume you don’t. Based on this episode alone, it is crystal clear that you feel your negative emotions intensely and constantly. What you don’t seem to experience are the emotions on the positive side of the emotional spectrum. You certainly appear to feel more than the typical person experiences anxiety, fear, insecurity, etc. What makes me feel bad for you is the way you emotionally abuse yourself and your difficulties with feeling joy, contentment, and happiness. I am super impressed with how well you nurtured parts of yourself and your life, and suspect you will eventually realize that Modern Wisdom and ancient wisdom are both summed up by the Serenity Prayer (the only “prayer” this atheist uses: Grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, courage to change the things I can, and the wisdom to know the difference.” This is the first time I’ve felt like you were resonating with the lesson of the Mexican fisherman. The one who catches enough fish to feed his family, then enjoys time with them on the beach and enjoys his life. Then one day a big corporate tycoon comes along while he is on vacation with his family and meets the fisherman. He is so impressed with the quality of the fish he sells, that he tries to convince him to create a giant business. I’m sure you know the rest.
Happiness is temporary, fleeting, and overrated, but Joy is a state of peace that is meaningful, lasting, and not contingent on circumstances. Joy, instead, is what I believe we should be seeking.
Chris I think you're so amazing. I agree with absolutely everything you said. Great job!
Needed this today, excited to listen!!!
I work in an IT job with adequate pay. I am against consumerism, so I don't have much expenses. I was offered positions in other organisations where my pay would be more than double my current salary. I analysed and found that to 2x my salary I will have to take 5x more responsibilities and tasks. So, doubling my salary will put my work/salary equation out of balance. So, I refused that offered. People, colleagues, famiy called me crazy.
Being a productive ‘useful’ member of society is drilled into us at a young age even subconsciously…just look at kids cartoons like Thomas the tank engine - his moto is literally‘I’m a useful engine’ , this with the unspoken assumption that if he weren’t useful he would go to the scrapyard ( no one would want/ love him )
And he's totally correct and rightfully so.
Chris one time I told you , you had crazy eyes and you responded to me. Your eyes are looking much better. I really enjoy your podcast thanks bro
This has been one of my favorites! So relatable, and I appreciate the specific advise. Sometimes I don't understand what my therapist is trying to tell me. 😂
Thanks a lot for this. It was so good to hear, that there might be something wrong from with my routine setup, if unexpected things can cause stress. From time to time, when I feel like things are getting out of hand in my life, I'm trying to create a routine and make some decisions ahead of what I will do in the next week or month. And if something unexpected happens, it really creates an uncecessary stress! It shouldn't be like this. And good to know I'm not alone.
I've been time-surfing my entire life (tbf, Oliver did say it was "incredibly intuitive"). Based on what was said on this interview, I think I'm gonna continue o.o/
So many nuggets of super golden wisdom but the one that really stood out and perhaps it's a bit random although very relevant for me personally is that we DON'T need to niche down and conquer a niche before we can truly branch out, explore, and be way more artistic and interesting. That statement really made me get up and shout hallelujah! Perhaps I was unconsciously seeking permission to niche up?! lol Yes, we are all varied, and following our instincts makes for a much more happy, unique, and generally cool life.
Great episode!! so insightful
I'm unconsciously adopting your accents.
Really important relevant conversation 🙏🏼
Excellent insights and thoughts abound. One thing came to mind in this wonderful post: re: Elon Musk and building Cathedrals....how the Western cultural imperative of liberalism...breeding unconfined feelings each of us as individuals can overcome ANY real-world impediments in achieving impossible life goals....i.e., the conceit of Free Will...and that some of us...like Musk perhaps, who do not know how and when to Turn Off these imperatives of mind and mood. In the case of Musk, he does appear to create at least one self imposed ceiling on his goals: the laws of physics.
Trauma response is often a piece of all this. Sometimes cause, sometimes effect, sometimes both
Salute to inquisitive Chris Williamson Podcast
If you liked 4k weeks by Oliver, read Stumbling on Happiness by Daniel Gilbert
Thanks yall;-)
Time management techniques don’t solve an underlying malady. We have a distorted perspective on time caused by our failure to properly face the reality of own finitude. Our limits are what make us unique and proper limits can be gratefully received instead of bucked against.
Transactional vs organic/personal *time to start intentionally identifying each in our lives
Oliver is my favourite productivity expert (not meant in a negative way). While there are many "productivity gurus" I genuinely enjoy his content and believe him what he says. Thanks for an amazing episode, Chris!
51:08 re: gym, I wonder how much of these kinds of examples are because deep down we know we no longer need to push ourselves like we once did - maybe we’ve realised we’ve not got as much to prove anymore…
Is he selling a new book? I haven't watched the video yet.
this is like a Xanax in podcast form
READ Byung-Chul Han ideas of achievement subjects or his book Burnout Society. Do it now.
The Jack Welch-ian model hacked into people's insecurities. It produced results, but is not sustainable. It creates division and competition among co-workers. It may work for a while, but it exhaust's people in time. Many long for a simple life that corporate work will never allow.
Ah, but that squares well with corporate goals. It doesn't matter if the workers burn out, because they can be replaced. And if they die on the job, it just means no need to pay retirement or unemployment. So it's a positive all around from the corporate point of view.
@Triaxx2 Only if your company has short-term goals. Sadly most do and don't have an eye towards true growth.
Stop talking about not doing stuff and start not doing stuff. Chris talks about people not having kids but he isn't having kids. Chris... have some kids if you want people to have kids, be the change you want to be.
Do we even know if he has a missus? He's always saying he wants to have kids but what if he hasn't met the right lady? (Sadly, I am unavailable so cannot offer myself 😂)
@@acacia_wit's gotta be pretty difficult to find "the right lady" when you're an online personality of note, wealthy, and good-looking to boot.
I get the vibe that Chris is emotionally avoidant and I think he's working on it because he said he is seeing a therapist. Also he says he wants to be a dad. I can't wait for this to happen for him! ❤🙏⭐️
He has previously said he has a long term girlfriend although I believe it is long distance (or used to be).
If you are doing "nothing" you are still doing something: nothing! which very often means: Sleep, read a book, watch a movie, think. and so on.
I am not productive and most happy
59:30
I sometimes WISH I had an obsession with being productive and I wish I could get on board with this trend for optimising everything from your shit to your shaving technique. Then again, perhaps I don't. Kind of sick of all of it tbh. To me, it often comes off as insecurity.
Oliver would have to be the only Guardian writer that isn't ideologically possessed.
Sorry to hear you have reached your goals and now that your happy you will be shutting down Modern Wisdom.
How do you play pickle ball
😮
Life is a Pain Simulator Death is our only way out.
“Trying to feel feelings” sad.
answer to the first question at 0:01:........... captitalism.
You had one job
I love these podcast but I hate almost all of the titles. It almost makes me not wanting to listen the episode because of the title makes me annoyed. Just use the persons name in the title. And this is just my opinion. Thanks Chris!
I'm pretty sure he a/b tests them and goes with what gets the most clicks.
If you are not providing something you are using others to get what you want. It doesn't need to be a hard thing, but a needed thing. Everything you use was made by someone. Unless you make it yourself. If they didn't produce it, you would not have it. No one likes a user; will all need those that produce what we all need. Musks space program would not exist without his obsession on it. And working for him is good for those that do the job asked of them. You cannot enjoy your life if you have no achievements but playing. That is a low term joy. A long-term joy comes from achieving goals.
I've heard that the joy created from achievements passes, and there's a transition in mid-life that typically happens to people, where you begin to focus on family and community. I'm not buying in to "long-term joy comes from achieving goals," because goals won't visit you on your death bed, or give a damn about you when you need your Depends changed. SOME long-term joy can come from achievements and accomplishments, but love, friends, family and community are (imo) more generally fulfilling, and there's not a much better recent metaphor for this than Iron Man 3.
Produce more than you consume. 👍
33:25 Completely happy is, I think, a silly notion, a waste of time and requires brain surgery to work. Happy enough, that is the way to go🤧
He's got the right idea. Stop producing.
💋💘💋
Don't forget that there are older people who still have a low level of mental maturity. One needs only look at the recent rise of Karen videos to see older people who have not yet undergone proper growth.
Chris, stop talking and let your guests speak. We all know you're intelligent. And what's with the name dropping every minute? We get it, you know big people.
No job?! No income?! Try being productive! His Tshirt sucks big time!
I think your premise is simply not true. I've been in middle management for over 30 years. I have hired, trained and fired several generations of Americans. The current generation has absolutely no desire to be productive. Are you not familiar with the recent trends "act your wage", or how about "quiet quitting"? I find it troubling that you could be so out of touch. Laziness has achieved religious status. GenZ believes the absolute minimum is the best choice. I am in desperate need for decent employees. Send some of these 'productivity obsessed' applicants my way please. I'll wait... lmao
Real wages havent risen in 50 years bro.
Okay they should work really hard. But what for? Fiat isn't worth a lot anymore, the rise between rich and poor gets bigger and bigger through the cantillon effect which kinda leads us into feudalism. If you don't inherit assets then you are done, you will be living your life like a slave. You will have to work forever without being able to afford assets while the people who inherited those assets will gladly rent them out to you, further widening the gap between rich and poor. Gen Z is the first real generation that realizes this effect and decides to enjoy their life today instead of working hard now to ... keep on working hard in the future.
@@Isaac_Brock My first job paid $4.65 an hour. California just made $20 the standard. Entry level minimum wage jobs are supposed to be a starting point, not a career choice. Maybe aim a bit higher. But, that would require you to act responsibly and commit to a work ethic that would infringe on your "free time". Sooo.... aint gonna happen. But, you do you fam. lmao
@@ai3985rghh👍✌️👍 These $20.00 an hour jobs were always meant to be transitional positions, Not careers (insert me being sick of it ALL here). I've been working at my current company for 10 years, perfect attendance 9 out of 10 years, highest ranked, above and beyond and alot more, yet to justify raises in pay - my company gave 7 employees my title 😡, these 💩 do half of what I do ( Literally) yet get paid the same as me (Union) - did I say sick of it all❗️ ‼️😅 So funny to watch Chris try to explain why and what, like @5:50 when Chris has the lack of mindfulness and audacity to say (paraphrasing) Elon musky isn't really happy because of all the hardships that got him to where musk is - - BS Chris, people like Musk, Bezos and Gates - just to name A few, Are living thee best human existence possible. For example Chris, my wife & I are both 48, we're about to pay our Amazing home on 5 acres off in February of 2025, I have wanted to tell practically every person at every workplace I've ever worked (For whatever Asswhole thing they did - unprovoked by me) - to 🖕 off and or meet me 6'6 after work and continue this conversation. But because of the threat of not accomplishing the BIGGEST accomplishment of all (in my opinion) if I lost my job and made less money elsewhere or struggled getting work etc.Instead I end up wasting 2 to 3 hours writing a complaint to HR. This is A problem musk and Bezos don't have. I have learned to NEVER ask for help - F'N ever, unless I absolutely need to (Rarely), because it makes me more capable, stronger and a leader. Waiting to accomplish something major to set U free - does exist - see example A above. Never stop striving for more and get David Goggins book 📖 - CANT HURT ME - excellent book. NEWCASTLE CALIFORNIA,USA 🇺🇸
@@ai3985rghhYou picked an exception on minimum wages, not the standard. Also, even at $20 an hour, the ‘real wages’, meaning the buying power of that wage, is lower today than it was 4 decades ago. “Careers”, meaning long-term stable employment with pension and/or retirement options are basically non-existent at this point , at least considerably fewer than were available 40 years ago. Besides these large-scale concerns, I would bet that your dismissive attitude and ignorance of the ‘real wage’ situation of your entry-level employees probably contributes to folk not wanting to work hard for you, too.
You talked way too much on this one ! Did not listen to Oliver. Too much caffeine ?
Dude ain’t in shape. Immediately not credible lol straight Andy Elliot mentality on this
BS
Now you need to interview @zach_pogrob about his Obsession Movement lol.