In this interview I am joined by Beth Upton, a meditation teacher, ex-nun, and student of renowned meditation master Pa Auk Sayadaw.
Beth reveals why reading economics at Cambridge caused her to fracture with today’s economic system and eventually led to her ordaination as a nun in Myanmar.
Beth details her rigorous training under renowned meditation master Pa Auk Sayadaw, addresses skepticism of the Visuddhimagga, and criticises so called ‘soft jhana’ teachings as watered down dharma.
Beth contrasts popular soft jhana teachings with how she was trained at Pa Auk, discusses the 10-fetter model of enlightenment, and explains how samadhi can be used to remember past lives and generate siddhi such as the ability to see devas and ghosts.
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www.guruviking.com/podcast/ep...
Also available on KZhead, iTunes, & Spotify - search ‘Guru Viking Podcast’.
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Topics Include:
00:00 - Intro
00:51 - Upbringing and and reading economics at Cambridge
03:56 - The problem at the heart of money
05:44 - Money as a monastic vs a lay person
09:32 - Beth’s current thinking on money
16:14 - Encountering Buddhism
19:21 - Becoming a nun and meeting the meditation master Pa Auk Sayadaw
23:26 - Is the Visuddhimagga overblown?
25:03 - Soft Jhana teachings are watered down
28:43 - Hard jhana vs soft jhana distinctions
31:42 - Is there duality in jhana?
34:11 - Is jhana necessary for effective vipassana?
36:06 - Is progress possible without retreat?
38:57 - Beth’s 1-1 mentorship
40:14 - The curriculum of Beth’s training as a nun
44:10 - How to remember past lives
48:45 - Observing the causal links of karma
50:45 - How to develop siddhi via deep samadhi
53:44 - Opening the divine eye to perceive devas and ghosts
56:11 - Not claiming attainments
01:00:42 - Choosing the right meditation object
01:03:36 - Beth’s dislike of Dharma talks
01:05:57 - 1-1 mentorship with Beth
01:08:10 - Change technique after stream entry?
01:19:14 - Beth on the 10 Fetters and 4 Path Model
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To find out more about Beth Upton, visit:
- bethupton.com/
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For more interviews, videos, and more visit:
- www.guruviking.com
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Music ‘Deva Dasi’ by Steve James
I found her interview extremely insightful with a genuineness that made me smile over and over.
Exactly! I really like her.
Dipa Ma brought house holders in India to Stream Entry without going on retreat. Because they couldn't leave the home....and their lives were busy. I keep my sights on this 🙏 I really enjoyed this interview. Thank you!
Great interview. The segment starting at 25:03 is a (very diplomatic) dismantling of Leigh Brasington's method as "not jhana" (done graciously and without naming names). I agree, his method needs a new name completely. I'd like to see more properly-trained Theravadins like Beth coming forward to (diplomatically and productively) challenge New Dharma people like Daniel Ingram, Leigh Brasington and Kenneth Folk, who are basically making things up as they go along, while leading people into the potentially dangerous territory of trying to practise vipassana without an adequate jhana foundation (since, with those guys, "jhana" means whatever they want it to mean). Beth's channel is highly practical and is worth a sub.
Leigh Brasington was trained by Ayya Khema. Ayya Khema was trained in en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nissarana_Vanaya Not sure on what grounds you claim that he is making stuff up.
@@dardanbas ayya khema got her "jhana" training from some random monk that crawled out of the jungle. no one knows anything about that monk and how knowledgeable he was. just because he was a monk does not mean he was knowledgeable nor attained - all monks are not equal in terms of their understanding, practice and attainments. and to teach something one does not fully understand, and one has not attained, can do more damage than good. the fact that there are people who like to believe in leigh's fake jhana to feel better about themselves and their achievements says a lot about those people... and it should be noted that most of those people are westerners. hard to blame them though, after all, who doesn't want a shortcut and an easy way out? lol
What a beautiful and inspiring video. 😁 I heard the name Beth Upton just over a year ago when looking at meditation places in Spain. I also had been considering training at the Pa Auk temple in Thailand. Learning of Beth’s training I made contact via email. Though I am very busy and struggle to find time, this video has given me the determination to move forward. Beth’s humility, her OBVIOUS EXPERIENTIAL knowledge, combined with her theoretical understanding of the practice, is so wonderfully encouraging. 😁 As one who has sought truth and liberation for many years, I have ALWAYS been most careful in who I choose as a teacher. I have seen so many people, after little time or experience, rushing to teach, to establish themselves as an authority on the subject and even to write books. Whilst their experiences might be valid, the need to be seen as a teacher, or indeed any self promotion, reveals the atta in the individual which, for me, has always been a flare. In this video however, through her authenticity and sweet humility, Beth Upton PROVES herself to be worthy of the title “teacher”. I am most encouraged! Thank you for this video. Wishing you every good thing in life. Phra Aren (Panyasampanno)
I love watching all your interviews, Steve, and am amazed at your preparation and insightful questions. With Beth, in contrast to so many of your other interviews, it was interesting to watch you and she struggle with these black and white questions you sometimes ask, as her responses were less than specific in the way you sought, and your questions were more pointed than she wanted to answer. Super duper interaction and examples of skillful non-answering and also skillful pressing without rudeness. Plus, Beth is adorable while also being firm and precise in her statements and her understanding of the dhamma from her tradition is communicated skillfully, warmly and invitingly with the "yes, it is possible for all," attitude. Nicely done both of you.
This is absolutely mindblowing. Huge thanks to both Guru Viking and Beth for this invaluable interview. This really motivates me to double up on my efforts and deepen my meditation practice. Thank you
There is something,I quite can't put my finger on, different to most other "jhana masters" who have appeared on this channel.
Thank you for another incredibly inspiring guest and interview. Anumodana! What an excellent embodiment of Dhamma clarity and wisdom, depth, gentleness, and humility we are gifted with in (venerable!) Beth Upton; much rejoicing in her journey and practice. And much gratitude to her for telling the truth about the dangers of misappropriating Dharma terminology through lack of epistemic humility etc (re: defending claims to realization, for e.g.) Like someone who points to a hill and decrees: I've climbed Mt Everest! Deep bows to you both. Sadhu sadhu sadhu. 🙏
Very thankful for this interview. Beth's honesty and straightforwardness is refreshing :)
one can see that this Woman is not an ordinary person...
I loved this whole interview, but want to comment especially on Beth's understanding of the economic system and how it works to create a false value system. I have been calling it that for about ten years, but my understanding lacked the clarity that Beth brought to the table on this subject. I too, have tried to live outside the system and have mostly been successful in doing that, but not without a lot of difficulty and, I have to say, suffering. I do not know what the long term solution is, but I can totally understand Beth's reluctance to become part of that system.
One of my favorite guests you have had.
What ever level of samadhi you think you may have, soft, hard, access, first, second, third, fourth, etc… it doesn’t matter to anyone but yourself. After all you can’t show anyone else your level of concentration and you don’t get a qualification with a certificate that you can show to others. Jhana is not the goal. It’s part of the path to the goal - the eighth factor of the path. So jhana itself is necessary but it’s what you can do with it that is important. Whatever level of concentration you have, you don’t rest content with it, you investigate it and develop it further. “Strong concentration is absolutely necessary for liberating insight. “Without a firm basis in concentration,“ he often said, ”insight is just concepts.” To see clearly the connections between stress and its causes, the mind has to be very steady and still. And to stay still, it requires the strong sense of well being that only strong concentration can provide. To gain insight into a state of concentration, you have to stick with it for a long time. If you push impatiently from one level of concentration to the next, or if you try to analyze a new state of concentration too quickly after you’ve attained it, you never give it the chance to show its full potential and you don’t give yourself the chance to familiarize yourself with it. So you have to keep working at it as a skill, something you can tap into in all situations. This enables you to see it from a variety of perspectives and to test it over time, to see if it really is as totally blissful, empty, and effortless as it may have seemed on first sight.” ‘Jhana Not by the Numbers’, by Thanissaro Bhikkhu www.dhammatalks.org/books/PurityOfHeart/Section0013.html “I have heard that on one occasion the Blessed One was staying near Sāvatthī in Jeta’s Grove, Anāthapiṇḍika’s monastery. Then Ven. Ānanda went to the Blessed One and on arrival, having bowed down to him, sat to one side. As he was sitting there he said to the Blessed One: “What is the purpose of skillful virtues? What is their reward?” “Skillful virtues have freedom from remorse as their purpose, Ānanda, and freedom from remorse as their reward.” “And what is the purpose of freedom from remorse? What is its reward?” “Freedom from remorse has joy as its purpose, joy as its reward.” “And what is the purpose of joy? What is its reward?” “Joy has rapture as its purpose, rapture as its reward.” “And what is the purpose of rapture? What is its reward?” “Rapture has calm as its purpose, calm as its reward.” “And what is the purpose of calm? What is its reward?” “Calm has pleasure as its purpose, pleasure as its reward.” “And what is the purpose of pleasure? What is its reward?” “Pleasure has concentration as its purpose, concentration as its reward.” “And what is the purpose of concentration? What is its reward?” “Concentration has knowledge & vision of things as they have come to be as its purpose, knowledge & vision of things as they have come to be as its reward.” “And what is the purpose of knowledge & vision of things as they have come to be? What is its reward?” “Knowledge & vision of things as they have come to be has disenchantment as its purpose, disenchantment as its reward.” “And what is the purpose of disenchantment? What is its reward?” “Disenchantment has dispassion as its purpose, dispassion as its reward.” “And what is the purpose of dispassion? What is its reward?” “Dispassion has knowledge & vision of release as its purpose, knowledge & vision of release as its reward.” www.dhammatalks.org/suttas/AN/AN11_1.html
I like her. Her voice puts me in a meditative mode. ❤
A fantastic interview yet again Steve. What a fascinating and inspiring guest Beth is. Thank you!
Thank you for these beautiful interviews. You are bringing dhamma into the lives of those who seek it.
Well, this looks wonderful.
34:15, 42:00, 45:00 nun Beth makes very good points on when and why Vipassana is required in Samatha meditation.
You did a great job with your follow up questions. I liked the additional detail that Beth added based on your questions
How can one just be ‘over’ it or even say that 😮 and the question is so correct about people who donate are plugged in the system so no difference in terms of influence no matter how you tell yourself you see it. Very good questions, straight to the point
Another amazing interview.
She's great. Would love to study with her in Spain someday. You should have her on more.
Wow her description of how seeing past lives work is understandable to me. This is great knowledge to me and clearly explains how past lives work in a believable way and what it actually means. It's a nugget of knowledge that I now have! Even if I may not experience it myself.
A really good interview, thank you!
Love your videos, Steve.
Thank you for your wonderful sharing. I really appreciate that.
Great interview. Thanks for this!
Nice! Beth taught me About buddhism/meditation in the caves of Andalusia. The main lesson was also in how human she allows Herself to be. :) :)
I would be very interested in hearing more details about her practice curriculum. In particular the jhanic work with the 10 kasinas(does jhanas gain different flavors depending from the object of access? Can you give a precise phenomenological description?) and also the practices done after the realization of the Knowledge of cause and condition(2nd Nana) for completing the progress of Insight. Another thing that I would like to understand better is what she mean exactly by ultimate reality. Experience free from conceptualization? I can't express the gratitude I have for you guruviking. It's really amazing getting to know so many genuine and dedicated meditators.🙏❤️🙏
Beautiful ❤️🙏🌈
1:08:30 changes in practice between stream entry and Arahantship.
She's so cute. She could play an elf in a movie. Due to an unusually agonizing illness that lasted for almost a quarter of a century, I was practically unable to meditate, although I always wanted to. I find it extremely encouraging that substantial results can be achieved in ten years. I hope I still have that much time ahead of me.
10 years practicing several hours/day is substantial. Strive ardently. Things are not so easy or simple as when you are 20.
@@chadkline4268 That's why I meditate sitting on a pillow on the edge of the bed and I don't even try to do any lotus sitting anymore. I've actually been meditating for 34 months and I'm still gradually increasing my doses. Now it's an average of 3 hours a day. I should probably look for a teacher. But I live in central or rather eastern Europe and most of those teachers are in the US. At least I attend seminars on the spiritual life of a Catholic parish where they do contemplative prayer. I was intrigued by what this Beth said about how sensory perception breaks down and her hand indicated ripples. I think Culadasa writes about the same thing in chapter seven, the sensation of air in the nostrils begins to discretize with a frequency of 2 Hz, and then 10 Hz, and in between there is a "void". Shinzen Young writes the same thing, and includes drawings of how the perception seems to be composed of "Fourier components" that start to have the same source and target over time. If I understand this correctly.
@@mispanludensprinck5652 it has been said, and I would agree, that mindfulness of breath can take you all the way. There may be little tricks to make the process faster, but concentration on breath alone can do it. Try to keep it going all day, even before/after meditating. It is OK to use words to prevent straying, like 'one .. two'. And if you stray, investigate why/when. Yes, eventually, body and mind vanish in deep concentration.
@@mispanludensprinck5652 if you are very serious, you must learn to push the limits sometimes. Like 4, 8 ... Hours of meditation. Lotus position is best, but if you can't do it, be sure that the position does not allow sleep.
@@chadkline4268 Meido Roshi says the most common mistake about meditation postures is that people bend the spine too much in the lumbar region and arch the chest too much. I would like to ask this Beth how it is possible to concentrate on the sensation in the nostrils when all tactile sensations are disappearing.
25:45 nun Beth speaks on the dumbing-down of Buddhism for western economic + feel-good consumption (ie, the Awakening movement; ie, anyone can do anything and become enlightened; ie, non-dualism, just stop thinking and then you are enlightened).
Can you please share how can we contact Beth for advice?
Beth's website is in the episode description.
Who does she mention around 26:25 before Ajahn Brahm? I can't hear her very well.
Dipa Ma
@@pragzter is s/he a buddhist?
@@Amorhoo yep she was a world famous meditation teacher
40:15 nun Beth speaks about 10-12 hour exertions.
Most people are looking for an Easy WAY to Comfort... Apparently myself included. Not Everyone is Ready for What you are Sharing.
The world works as a system, very faulty one 😊 the sooner one sees it the better. Only once you leave this system you understand what life is about. Quite interesting how studying economics and the rest the life gets so consumed if not using money but still thinking about it, going to be nun to get away from it and then now still consumed by figuring it out. Some sort of fault in the viewing things due to what sounds like an old trauma around money. None of these experiences is a coincidence - fascinating. Almost an obsession with denouncing money, it is not evil, you know, it’s what’s you make it
My initial reaction is that she's nicely addressed the central problem of socialist/communist systems which is that power corrupts. Capitalism is terrible at it's core, so it should be abandoned. A system that allows people to control the means of production but counters the power/corruption aspect with living in accord with the Dharma would potentially be a great way for humans to live. hmmm....gotta think it over. Thanks Guru Viking and Beth
It would be silly to think there could ever be a government system that isn't corrupt and working for its own benefit, but that's only my opinion. Great people generally don't have interest in politics, but when they do they are squashed by the weight of those currently in power. It's best to see the flaws of each system and try to make change but come to accept that it's probably never going to change in any satisfying way even if there is hope for the better and really working at being a part of that.
wow. so she, by saying she hasn't met anyone with aAnagami ttainments, reckons Pauk hasn't reached the goal.
Calling jhanas that aren't born from the Visuddhimagga interpretation 'not jhana' is pretty arrogant and doesn't really make sense. Even if Visuddhimagga jhanas are attainable why haven't they led to 4th path?
Disagreed. As someone who has benefited tremendously from ‘soft Jhanas’ I do agree with what she is saying because it is actually just a different meditation technique and would make sense to call it something else. It’s not really the same at all as ‘hard Jhanas’. I think that it would be ignorant to disregard the usefulness of those techniques, but that isn’t what she is saying.
@@charlielevett9008 oh? I thought she said those 'soft jhanas' aren't jhana.
@@VeritableVagabond She definitely did.
@@biscottone3357 yeah, i don't understand it.
@@VeritableVagabond I believe what she is getting at is that when people give themselves an excuse to say they have attained jhana even though it's the soft version, you get many more people who delude themselves and actually aren't hitting any form of jhana claiming they did so. I think soft jhana is a fair term personally, but I am hesitant to believe the sheer number of people who have attained jhana when they have gotten the light version of it. Or maybe I'm being too skeptical and the majority of these people are actually getting light jhana.
Why do people believe in past life and supernatural parts of buddhism?
I suppose because it's not belief but they actually experience these parts first-hand. The issue is that they need extensive training to access.
if you could truly access past life's you could cross check what you discovered with history books and biographies...then you'd be world famous. So I assume it's not real. Or is it not like that?
@@novadirector You'd have to talk to her 1 on 1. I can't access past lives, yet.
@@novadirector most at that level of clarity aren't going to have interest in fame. But if they do they'll likely go another route toward it. Having past life experiences doesn't mean you're recalling human lives only. And even if you do the chance that it's a life that was documented in history books will be incredibly unlikely. And who is to say a human past life isn't from some other planet in this infinite space filled with trillions upon trillions upon trillions of planets anyway? It's too complicated to not believe in over something like not checking with history books and sharing. Of course you don't have to believe in it anyway but if you attain the jhanas and recall your earliest memories, you'll find out for yourself anyway.
@@novadirector if we can agree that circumstances are preceded by causes, then we can agree that if the causes remain, the outcomes will repeat. Birth has causes. The binding of a spirit to flesh has causes. If the causes remain, births continue. So, you might wonder what is the cause? All the great teachers, and it doesn't matter if it is Lao Tze, the Buddha, Jesus, or Mohammed ... The cause is sensual desire. If you die, sensual desire will bind you to a new set of senses ... You get what you want. You are captain of your ship. Deliverence/salvation is the ending of sensual desire, the ending of births. And with the ending of births comes the ending of stress+suffering. You have to study and contemplate things before it all adds up and you begin to understand. But, that is why all the great teachers were ascetics. They were not people with passions for sensual pleasures. They all renounced this world; ie, materiality. I am not addressing your concern of remembering past lives directly, but I am answering you indirectly. Stress+suffering is fundamental to the nature of material life because it is eat or be eaten, birth and death, gain and loss. We can't find satisfaction or peace or safety in material form. Thus, we need to strive to find what is beyond material. And at the very least, YOU (awareness/presence, a non brain knowing or conscience, and the power of intent) are beyond material, similar to how you are beyond material in a dream. Note how the spirit never sleeps. It is active by day+night. It is not rooted in biology and has no need for rest and recovery.
there's no such thing as soft and hard, only real and fake jhana.