Honing For The Home Engine Builder ( from a machine shop)
2021 ж. 30 Қаз.
32 473 Рет қаралды
hey guys doing a bit of talking on honing cylinders for the home engine buider , now @Uncle Tony's Garage did a video on home honing a block, so i wanted to do a video on why machine shop's recommend to have cylinders within spec, I now i do realize not everyone can afford everything new all the time, but if it worn out its not going to get better. my two cents, I will do some video's on how i recommend using a deglazing hone for stuff that with in spec,
Measure your cylinder, and if it's out of spec, have it bored. There, I just saved you 24.5 minutes.😅
This was very useful and actually educating video, thank you for explaining everything so clearly!
A flex hone that's run for only 20 to 30 seconds doesn't take off a measurable amount, all it does is put a cross hatch. And it does give you a proper peak and valley surface to break in your new rings. Modern engines don't wear like they used to, at 100,000 you can usually still see the original crosshatch. So if you're starting with something that's within specs you're going to end up with a good job. And you can get a pretty accurate piston to bore measurement with a feeler blade
Love your videos - especially since you are a 12V 1st gen Cummins/Dodge kind of guy. My local engine builder of 35 years put a 12V with ppump upgrade in a Ramcharger for his ex Marine son. It sounds and smells so stout! No smoke of course - they are not racing and are not clowns. Manual trans.
Thank you for a great video. I'm on the fence about stone or ball which I've used before but now I'm building a 5.3 that's getting a supercharger and I want some reliably out of along with longevity. The short block I picked up doesn't look in bad shape. My plan was ball hone, bearings and bolts. Now I'm going to drop it with my local machine shop for a clean hone and decking.
As long on the specs are good. I see no issues.
Well, on top of the money factor there is the time factor. I recently had a block in to have it done "RIGHT" it took the shop 6 weeks just to pull the cam bearings and soft plugs and hot tank (crappily) it didn't even remove the paint and rust only the oil and to have measured for tapper and line hone and magged. Any other work I wanted done was going to be another 6 weeks. This shop does all the auto shop and dealer work in town. Their tooling is older than me I'm 63. I saw no Rottler or Serdi equipment and they were using old hand held valve grinding equip. I see for sale on market place for less than $500 and they didn't have lathe or mill and 2. guys with a 60x60 shop full of work stacked up. So, I picked up my stuff and went home and arm and ball honed it myself and am putting in my own cam bearings and frost plugs etc. who has time to wait 3 mos. for an engine to get done. When I was a kid I could get heads and a block done in a week or two not 3 fricking mos. I paid $240 for the minimal amount of work they did in 6 weeks. I had to pressure wash the block after I honed it and blew out the coolant passages while there and they were full of rusty goodness that they did not remove and I had to.
This is the same ring I faced this past week. Went to 2 machine shops, and they were oohh it is 2 months out. 😂😂
Great video Rob liked the explanation, I go by buy once cry once it's not rocket sicence.
Great stuff man like always👍👍👍 a person needs to take all of that into consideration to get a good end result and for it to last like u said 👍👍
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Thank you, This saved some Mopar stuff from Roadkill'n it.
I could never find the time to a video out like this. Really good information my Tiktok friend!
Ya man I spend 40 hours week doing video stuff. But I enjoy it keeps me motivated that people want to see the next video
Good video. You're absolutely correct. You can re-ring up to .010. But it will never last like a fresh bore. Thanks Rob. Take care, Ed.
100%
Hey Rob, really well timed video for me. Currently have a 6.4 powerstroke that I'm rebuilding and I bought a lisle 15000 cylinder hone (2 stone 2 wiper). I think sunnen makes them too. According to their literature they are supposed to be capable of removing taper and not worsening it. What are your thoughts on these? I've yet to get it ripped apart to check for taper, but if it's within reason I plan to just deglaze and send back into service. Thanks!
yep that's style is a alot closer to what we use, but use it the taper is out of spec you have to make the cylinder way to bigt o fix it,
Be korner you're right. How many 2 stroke motors I've rebuilt with the 3 stone hone,lol. Great job again Rob. Ouch and that motor was ground to a complete performance engine.
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When i built my cummins going from a 12v to 24v head i just de-glazed the block as it was a low km block and well with in cylinder wear specs. one thing I've found with de-glazing is actually getting the right cross hatch, Ive seen a few engines that where ball honed rebuilt that had almost horizontal or vertically straight cross hatching.... then wonder why hard starting and blow-by issues.
yep
great video, learned alot
Thanks for the info. It’s becoming a addiction for knowledge. And I’m a addiction lol
Sometimes you can get a motor that doesn't need machining but if it does need it, it needs it and it is a waste of time to build it.unless you just want a short lifespan low miles thing. I spun a rod bearing once filed the cap slapped in a used good bearing and it lasted six months. Bought a new crank later on. It would have gone years if i only went two miles cold lol
Uncle Tony did measure the taper using the ring gap up and down the cylinders and a flashlight for any gaps between rings and wall.
It gives you an idea on size but it’s not like doing it with a dial bore gauge
Would you replace one piston and rings due to damage top one piston walls look good, would I still need to hone for the new rings in that one cylinder?
Also that is on a 5.9 cummins with 300k miles
@CUTTERUPROB I have 1 damaged top of piston, and the other 5 cylinder and pistons are fine with 300k miles on them would you just replace the one piston and rings or all cylinders and rings?
Its more like $125 per cylinder in Australia, at least where i am, for a bore and hone.
Good job.
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Thanks Rob.
I have a briggs opposed engine. It is a older, less common, larger model. So pistons are $130 each an rods $65 each. A new 2cyl 20HP OHV is about $550 shipped. Don't pay to to bother with it. Even used parts are very expensive, no oversize is available anymore, so it is a risk just honing the bore. It threw a rod.
Could I use a piston ring in the bore, setting it parallel to the plane of the engine and then measuring the gap with a shim gauge to check for taper in the cylinder? a non-round cylinder would mess with the result but it's better than nothing. Also, wouldn't a very slightly taper improve a heavily boosted engine? idea being that at TDC where the piston is the hottest and ring gap is smallest, you can run a tighter ring cap with a tapered bore and not risk the ring gap closing. Maybe using specialized pistons the sloppiness of them in the bore could also be fixed.
Yep sure can
Hey Rob, sorta off the subject but I've often wondered about using a torque plate when honing. Have you ever measured the bore with the torque plate on and torqued down after honing and then removed the torque plate and seen a difference in bore diameter? I'm fixing to see for myself, I ordered waglers torque plate to do my buddys engine cause our local machine shop doesn't have one. I prolly use it a handful of times but we're putting a lot in this build. thanks buddy
Jay, Rob has a video on this very thing and clearly shows the difference.
@@preachers4135 I'm an idiot I remember that, brain fart. Thanks Shaun
i've used the 3 stone with good results on small engines however i'd never use on automotive
you can use them on anything just g=have to be in spec
DUI stuff 😂😂😂 great video thanks
I agree with what he is saying. More money is better than wasted money.
Not if u know what you're doing. Measuring is the key first
If you have a ridge and boring and honing and new pistons is not an option you can machine the top ring groove and fit a spacer which will lower the top ring height slightly. Or you could get the crank reground and shorten the stroke slightly. You could also resize the conrod so the length is reduced slightly to bring the top ring down fron any ridge. I have been out of th egame for a long time now and have never seen the diamond hones last ones i have used were the sunnen stones and we honed using 3 different grades.
I would say the best option would be to cut the rod and resize to pull the ring down in the hole a bit.
I subscribed Rob. Take care, Ed.
Thanks for the sub Ed
@@CUTTERUPROB You bet Rob, nice to meet a fellow engine man like yourself.
@@edsmachine93 ya there isn’t to many of us anymore.
@@CUTTERUPROB No Sir, a little over 5,000 in the USA. Lost over 10,000 in the last ten years or so. The powers to be want us gone. The parts situation. So sick of the pandemic stuff. I work by myself. Some part time help is all. Take care, Ed.
yep its all crazy , i think i will be doing them thing myself in the next couple years , scale back and take leave a bit easier
Uncle Tony my man. Mopar or no car
You're 100% right but if u truly know how to measure like alot of smart home wrenchers then the proper decision can be made. For example in my case that i actually just did yesterday but the engine has been sealed and properly stored for 8 years. What happened was years ago early EFI systems were pretty shitty and all my set up would ever seem to do was dump fuel and run ridiculously rich which washed the cylinders in my fresh 383. Well as we all well know that it doesn't take long to ruin a freshly machined motor. I barely put 1k on it and pulled it and stored it. After checking properly i realized that those cylinders are dead nutz. So in my case a shop would've done the exact same thing as i do with my drill press. I dont believe in the ball though
Been considering running a ball hone in my current build. I'm just going to take measurements and if its not close to spec im going to send it to my local shop. $40 is worth it for reliability.
40$ for what, honing?
Yes, you're right. It'd be nice to have a machine shop. I'm not sure where one is in this area ?
Have to ask around or google it and see why comes up
@CUTTERUPROB here in florida it is is Insane to get a machine shops to help you. Most of them closed down due to covid and the ones still around will tell you 2 months lead time.
So, Im building a ly6 6.0 ls, had every intention of boring, then considered using the Lyle 1500... However, every indication is that none of that is needed. I measured and remeasured and only came up with a max 0f .0001 variance side to side top to bottom across all cylinders (hard to believe) ... thus the plan changes now considering to just ball hone it, buuut not sure what grit to use, I'm thinking 240...thoughts?
if it .001 extra clearance it will run for a long time , the ball hone just cuts the glaze off , the 240 will work fine for that ,
I’ve got a F150 302 ci engine that I’m going to overhaul. Right now I got the heads off. I know to properly do it right, both the heads and block would be done by a machine shop. I just looking for ballpark numbers. What is the cost for the heads to be done… Valve seats ect? Block to be completely done? Pistons? Thanks.
Really depends on the area you live. Because to call a shop close to you
Whats your thoughts on like the lisle 15000 fixed hone?
Better then a ball hone
Do you have to put oversized piston after this?
No it would need bored to use over size pistons
You're a hundred percent right its just their are so many different scenarios with blocks and wear and clearances and everything. Its not a one trick pony. Because remember u can put lipstick on a pig but its still a pig. Thats a ball hone analogy lol
Im rebuilding a 3.8 229 myself the bores had lip on them so i took redge reamer took it off so i took my old pistons rings it shows 0.035 on ring gap is that good to go its a gmc 1981 caberallo im building
.035 is a bit high for a ring gap for that. Best to get a specs for the engine and measure it out and see what you have. Most of the time if you have to cut a ridge off there worn a lot
@@CUTTERUPROB ok thanks nut it was running so good before tear down summit tells me i can put bigger rings with my standard pistons sir
@@CUTTERUPROB the crank journal is 24 and rods is 21 that what the book calls for
Is it possible with bigger rings for my standard pistons sir
@@davidholmes5698 When we rebuild them we bring everything the specs should be. You can make them work lots of ways I just prefer to do it once and it last for years to come.
let's say I have a block that has a fresh bore and i want to add .001" clearance to it. The machine shop wants 220$ to add a thousandths or take it away how ever you want to look at it. Would it be stupid for me to try to take off .001" with a hand held hone. Please don't ask me how I ended up in this predicament.
Most hand hones aren’t designed to take material out more to just break the glaze on a cylinder. The hard part t of doing it with a the hand hone is the control and keeping the bore straight and if you don’t have good measurement equipment it hard to check. If you want a good clean job I would spend the money and have the machine shop do it myself.
@CUTTERUPROB yeah, but in my case having a machine shop do it twice. That's why I'm questioning honing it. Because it's a fresh honed bore. I just made the mistake to not tell them I wanted an extra .001" on the bore. Because I was planning on turbocharging it.
The customer dude should've been measuring cylinder bore while he was honing to monitor what he was doing and if he was removing material consistently from all cylinders and all levels of each cylinder
Many/most people watch these videos to learn how to DIY. a Lisle hone is only about $200. It's not as good as yours, but it does basically the same thing. I think the DIYers could use a video on measuring and evaluating a cylinder. A good KZheadr can make more from views than he can from people walking in the door with parts that need to be repaired.
Not rocket science. But money always well spent. 👍
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I’ve lost ring control
and instead of doing it myself, what happens if i send you my block and u hone it beyond spec? you could easily say it cant be fixed and blame me for your mistake cause i wouldn't have any idea. unfortunately mechanics mess up and blame the client instead and then make the client pay for the replacement or repair. i have literally watched a company get sued because of it. thats why people are doing their own work now days. we are tired of being screwed over by dishonest people.
UTG is a fountain of useless knowledge when it comes to history, production numbers and factory specs, particularly for a specific era of Mopars but that's about it. I don't care how much time he spent in the vicinity of race cars. There's a reason he didn't stick to spinning wrenches and ended up writing about other peoples cars. He wouldn't have the knowledge to make it as a GS at Meineke. I mean come on. This is the guy that thinks reversing pistons to change pin offset will magically unlock secret HP and put out a joke of a head porting video with zero means of quantifying any supposed improvement. OK, rant off. On the subject of flex and ball hones, if you're a landscaper that needs to get one more season out of a mower or snow blower before replacing it... Go nuts. If you're an experienced engine builder that's just freshening up a race motor off season AND have the tools to know the bore is straight... They have their place. If you're trying to build any sort of performance engine or something that will have longevity... Take the block to a machine shop and pay the piper. There's a very good reason you can buy flex/ball hones for under $50 while a well used Sunnen/Serv Equip/WVN from the 80's is $5K plus tooling and it ain't because the machine is faster. I won't even go into the differences of honing a block for cast iron vs ductile vs coated vs steel rings. Thank you for putting out this video explaining exactly why there is a huge difference.