The Most Revolutionary Race Car Nobody Knew About
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- Timestamps -
00:00 Intro
00:29 Bill’s background
01:07 Racing career
01:50 A secret project
02:46 Milliken MX-1
03:35 Race Car Vehicle Dynamics
04:07 Showcased after decades
04:55 Bill’s automotive influence
- Disclaimer -
This video is fair use under U.S. copyright law because it is transformative in nature, uses no more of the original than necessary and has no adverse effect on the market for the original work.
- Credits -
“Watkins Glen Sports Car Racing 1950s” by King Rose Archives
• Watkins Glen Sports Ca...
“B-17 Flying Fortress in action” by VUSschneider
• Video
“2007 Goodwood FoS Milliken MX1 Camb Car ICEFARMER” by Rik Parmentier
• 2007 Goodwood FoS Mil...
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Loved the background music in this video!
stancenation before it even existed
sadboys in 1967 sheeeesh
@@Fred_the_1996 heartbroken gentlemen club represent
TIL the OG stancenation bro was from LobsterLand Maine haha.
@@Mr.Marbles lmao
Made the internet's most hated car before the WWW was created.
I consider myself a pretty knowledgeable “car guy,” but you always seem to find something so odd or rare that even the “car nuts” didn’t know about it. Great video 👍🏼
I appreciate it, Mike!
Big camber, inline 6, 2 stroke! That car just gets better and better!
Having the tires at about the same camber angle as the combined weight of the car and its centripetal force vector summation would mean the tires sidewalls would be taking vertical and circumference forces with little lateral forces. That may allow much better tire dynamics than when applying 1G side loads on the tires. The need to have a circular tread area like a road racing motorcycle tire would severely restrict the tire's contact patch, making it very long and narrow. This car was almost certainly never intended to be race competitive, but for testing camber theory. The thrust loads from the high camber would have made manual steering tricky. All the normal geometries of steering and combating bump steer would need to be developed for camber angles of 45°. Thank you for this video. I'd think everybody that has studied performance suspensions has done thought experiments as to what the dynamics of having the tires cambering such as done with a motorcycle might provide.
Thank you for your comment!
Shut up, nerd! Just kidding - I find this stuff fascinating!
Good use of words to discuss this. Excellent point the tires sidewalls forces would be reduced but in straight driving this much camber would inflict a large constant tire sidewall force of sin(50 deg) * 1G which may cause fatigue flexion in them and then when the car entered a tight curve the tire sidewall load would reduce toward zero causing possible flex shift and poor dynamic. Another problem that you started to allude to, without race bike like special tires and minimal circular contact patch diameter, any two points on the contact patch are rotating at a significantly different road speed due to the high camber causing severe grinding of the tire and maybe detaching material. This could get dangerous.
@@oneginee I met Bill once. His son, Doug, is a friend of mine. There's no reason for camber thrust to follow that sin(angle) function. If you're interested in the car, Bill's autobiography "Equations of Motion" has plenty of data on it including the tires which you might find surprising, especially in that regard. One of the interesting aspects was the car actually exhibited reversed load sensitivity so setup worked backwards in a couple of ways. For example, stiffening the front end moved balance in the direction of oversteer instead of the reverse. It's the only case I've ever known about where that occurred. Neat stuff.
@@toddwasson3355 It does not need to "follow" the sin(camber angle deg) * 1G, it will BE that result because this is physics when the vehicle is in a straight line ! I am an engineer and i don't need your second guesser jackass opinion to infirm/confirm what i wrote. This Douglas focused on centripete force in turns and completely overlooks the detrimental effect that high camber has on the physics in straight stretches. I am not impressed and I'll stick with my own mechanical dynamics textbooks, thanks.
I met Douglas about 12 years ago during a FSAE competition that he attended. I was helping one of the East Coast teams, and my group spent perhaps an hour or so listening to his advice and tales. Bill deserves a longer video, he was a remarkable man.
Nice! I'm a former FSAE guy myself (2002-2007). I would have loved to have met him. 🍻
This was a seriously great story. I live next door in the state responsible for Segways (eeeww) and Rokons (cool story too, 2wd little off-road motorcycle, it floats, you can fill the rims with extra gas) but had never heard of the guy. I wish guys like Bill Milliken Jr. were better known.
The Milliken's book on vehicle dynamics is expensive but worth EVERY PENNY. The book explains every facet of vehicle dynamics: suspension geometry, spring rates, weight distribution, the relationship between front and rear roll centers, and answers questions you did not realize needed answers. On the day I received my copy, I opened that book and found answers for questions no other books address. This book is readable and has many interesting anecdotes regarding aeronautical and automotive engineering history as well as both theoretical and practical knowledge. If you set up race cars, this is your manual.
I actually used to take it away racing. Bill and a few of his associates were serious pioneers in the vehicle dynamics field.
Bill's autobiography (equations of motion) is way better than the race car vehicle dynamics. It is a miracle that Doug Milliken exists given how wild Bill was into his 30's.
A brilliant man, a life well lived, thank you for bringing his story to life for us
Original stance Jokes aside, a very interesting car I had no idea about
Best car youtuber aut there
Thanks!
What an amazing guy and distinguished engineer! Great job telling his story Visio 🏎️💨💨💨
Thank you, Paul!
Watkins Glenn is one of the two tracks I've been to. I didn't know this history about it. I love less than two hours from there.
Amazing man, amazing car, amazing engineering, amazing life. Thanks for sharing. I love and look forward to your videos. Keep up the great work.
Thank you, Bob!
0:33 am I reading that correctly, this man lived for 101 years? That's pretty incredible, especially considering the safety standards of aviation and motorsports when he was there.
Yes, he lived for over a century. An incredible man
Having grown up not far from the area he did, there are some amazingly long lived people there. There are several people in my family who went well over 100. I met almost all my great grandparents.
Man Iv wanted to do this for years but never knew of his car. This is awesome just wish we heard more of that 2stroke i6.
Feel free to look for the Mercury outboard two-stroke inline-6 engine on KZhead
In South Louisiana we call that engine the tombstone. My friends dad worked on the Popeyes boat racing team for Tom Benson. He built his son a bored out Mercury 6 hung on back of a 17' Allison. Boat looked like the Concord jet. We ran it up to mid 80s mph. His dad shortened the lower unit and put a 4 blade on it, cut out the exhaust cans and we got up to 98 mph. Because it was all built with (junk) parts it was all just for fun and not an official race boat. It sounded like the Kawasaki straight 6 Widow maker. Then for some reason he burned the motor up using it on a lake skiff to go trawling for shrimp!!! Lmao!! Like i said South Louisiana. 😊
All your series on engine technology are great. I am happy to see you are enlarging your scope to other areas of vehicle technology. Thank you for all your hard work.
Thanks!
I used to have a Karman Ghia that the builder had utilized shorter-than-stock shock absorbers that made the rear wheels have positive camber (wider at the bottom than the top) for cornering
That's negative camber. This car is an extreme example. //------\\ = negative \\------// = positive
@@skaldlouiscyphre2453 And unless they're coil-overs, shock absorbers have no bearing on camber or ride height. Even gas shocks make a negligible difference. The Ghia probably just the rear torsion bars dropped in the splines.
@@moyadapne968 Isn't karmann-ghia has swing axle like rear suspension?
@@huseyinuguralacatli5064 yeah when "lowered" it gets more Camber
Another great story. More automotive history brought to a wider audience.This is why I am a patron.
Thanks Visio - this man was very interesting to learn about. He really contributed a lot to racing car setups.
4:00 Ha! I have that book. That was used in my Motorsports BSME minor. FANTASTIC, thorough book!
Pretty neat. Keep up the great work VisioRacer 😎
Wow, I hadn't seen that car before. Great video, great story.
What an amazing person, thanks for enlightening me, great video. 👍
Man... Many years and you can still suprise me 😁👍💪
I've been a race fan since 1963 and have never known about this car. I have heard of Bill Milliken though. Thanks for showing me something old that's new...to me.
Wow you really keep a steady stream of amazing content!
I appreciate it, Davon!
Excellent video!! What a unique car!
i imagine this with those massive rear tires the custom chopper bikes have on all 4 corners
Always a pleasure to view your content
Much appreciated, Joshua!
Great job, once again another interesting video 🙂
Thanks, Tom!
Amazing content as always. Would love your take on the HKS TRB-01.
That camber racer used steel rims from a SAAB and mist likely the brakes for it to as thats one of a kind bolt pattern. Double wishbones was also a SAAB thing. So might have had lots of SAAB parts on it.
He was probably the guy that designed it for Saab. Saab was started by a bunch of aircraft engineers.
@@mattrohr1266 nah. Bill never worked for Saab. He did some consultancy work for GM, Goodyear, and other american auto companies/suppliers but the camber car was the only car he ever designed and built. He did design, build, and crash his own airplane before he was 25 though.
Thanks Visio, I didn't know about this super interesting project.
Thank you, Barry!
This is a new one for me, remarkable car and designer. Some vintage speedway sidecar racers used banked outfits. He had a very long life.
Camber does have use in Racing, but not a Civic at the Walmart Parking lot at 3:20PM. He was a Smart and Awesome guy, Never know what you'll learn today.
Once again I learned something. Thank you
Thanks, Bob!
Thanks for this piece of Automotive history.
My pleasure, León!
your videos are till at the top all from the beginning😊
I have a copy of the book lol. It's like required reading for anyone even tangentially related to vehicle dynamics
As Mike said below, everytime you think you have seen it all, nope here come Vizoracer with something new and weird or just different. Keep up the great work. God bless you brother
Thank you, Joe!
I've always heard the mercury engine being called "the tower of terror," not the "tower of power." Where I live they have used that motor on tunnel hull hydroplane boats.
The 4 cam Corvette engine mentioned is the LT5 that debuted in the 1990 ZR-1, which like the 2 stroke that powered the camber car was produced by Mercury Marine. They had to make it because GM didn’t yet have the capability to make full production runs of all aluminum engines. It kind of surprised me to realize that aluminum blocks only became standard on Corvettes with the LS1 in the C5 1997 Corvette, while they’ve always had fiberglass bodies and have had independent rear suspension since the C2 in 1963.
Please share your outro music! The video is high quality as always!
Still more contact patch than your local cambered gang
guys with camber from 30s- 90s: bro I can corner so much better guys with camber now: bro I can look so much better
What a guy and lived to 101!
I remember an episode of the pickers on the history channel where they have to look for some items for a racing museum. There's an old man who sold or gave them a front ball joint he said he invented that does that camber. Idk his name
King video.
so... stance bois were right all along, huh... jokes aside huge respect to the man, truly an inspiration to follow for all of us
Is like a heavily pronating skater. With such camber I can imagine it being real hard to keep straight, a small twitch on the steering wheel sends the car to a sharp turn.
What about Cummins diesel special for Indy 500? It’s breathtaking story aswell
Seems to me that with our current tech and gps we could make a vehicle with dynamic alignment using electric/hydraulics.
Honda makes cars with active rear toe, and has for white a while now. Electric motors in the rear toe links.
Oh boy don't look up Nissan hicas, or the system on the prelude SI
@@danielescobar7618 That wasn't variable alignment, just four wheel steering, though.
@@izzmus look again as to what is adjusted.. it pulls the toe in and out. An important part of alignment for high performance driving.
@@danielescobar7618 HICAS and the Mitsubishi and the Honda 4WS didn't change toe-in, they just changed the rear steering (aka thrust angle). Subtle but important difference
A video on the marmon wasp would be cool
Sweet camber!
WOW - that was interesting
Long Live the Camber King.
Just WOW!
He lived to 101, that's amazing in itself !
That name looked familiar. Of course, read his book. It was highly recommended in the age of GPL and probably still is. 👍
thanks for the video man, n thank u youtube for 1.75x speed :p
this car camber has nothing on all the Miata's that drive around here in Florida
Grandfather of stance
this guy was badass
EASE UP ON THE MUSIC DRONING ON IN THE BACKGROUND.
holy weight shift , must have been terrifying when chassis would occilate side to side, be like catching an edge on a ski
It looks like, with that crazy camber, that the car would really come into its own in the corners, where the centrifugal force would just drive the outer tires harder into the asphalt.
Great video. I saw the actual car and met Mr Milliken at Goodwood in 2007. I have 2 short videos and several detailed photos. Let me know if you'd like them.
*THANK GOD FOR THE ARROW IN THE THUMBMAIL.* Thumbnail arrows: hilariously overused and pointlessly overcompensating since 2002.
Also, the first one ever with appropriate tires
Those old day engineers really knew their shit.
that amount of camber meant those tires got quickly destroyed probably had to change them during the race.
So cambered out Civics should handle well, who'd have thought? 😅
A bit of negative camber is always used in race cars for increased grip, if you go too far it decreases grip though
Wow this guy lived for 101 years
and before he was 30 he had crashed a bunch of cars, several motorcycles, and a couple airplanes, one of which he designed himself.
John 'Cougar' Mellencamp. 😄
I have had many questions about this car for years, and this did not address any of them. Research on camber ended when wide tires came in, but the effect on adhesion has never been explained.
Because unless you have specific rules that require something like motorcycle tires you don’t want that extreme of camber. The idea is to have just enough camber the tire lays flat under cornering. To much and you loose grip. They said that formula car made 1g of cornering which is really low for a formula car. With traditional tires and suspension that car should pull more like 1.5g at least.
@@NBSV1 As I noted, this experiment was conducted just before the tradition of wide tires began, which changed everything about suspension. History records this as an exceptionally sticky skinny-tire car. How much scrub did the cambered tires create? The explanations of motorcycle traction never account for the increased scrub from camber, except with vague references to the action of the bias-ply casing.
@@bobstuart2638 Because technology moved on so there wasn’t a need to keep researching it. And, even with skinny tires you want the biggest contact patch available. Laying them way over may generate some other forces, but you loose so much everywhere else it isn’t worth it. Motorcycles also don’t turn well compared to a race car. The contact patch on the tire is tiny and there’s only 2 of them. Something like a formula ford can turn a quicker lap time with half the power and double the weight compared to a super bike.
@@NBSV1 Brands Hatch in England Superbike lap record is around 1:24, Formula Ford 1:35, Porsche Carrera Supercup 1:25.
research on camber hasn't stopped. tire and auto companies are still using the tire test rig Bill Milliken's organization (CALSPAN) built in the 70's to generate tire models for use in vehicle dynamic simulations or to answer fundamental questions. but the mechanics are pretty straight forward. friction between rubber and road surfaces decreases with increased contact pressure. the tires generate a lateral force when put under a slip angle. that force deforms the sidewall and pulls the tire's footprint out from under the wheel. the footprint distorts in this situation. the overall shape becomes more trapezoidal and features uneven pressure on the outboard shoulder (generally). This reduces the overall peak lateral force that would be available with an even pressure distribution. Cars run negative camber because the camber preloads the tire such that the footprint shape is more square with an even pressure distribution under cornering conditions. There's nothing magic here.
Cross handling at high to medium speeds
I'll bet that car was a bear to steer on the straightaways with that much camber.
I thought is was cool because engineering… Then I saw it was powered by a TOP… and it became my favorite car my favorite ever.
DEMON CAMBER
Its got motorcycle tyres on it.@0.23
They should have used the Guy Martin as pilot... He can make it go bloody fast, or crash
The first member of the cambergang...
When they say camber doesnt work this guy says other wise
Stance bro
Grandpappy stance
Definitely sounds like a boat
Race Car
His kid stepped on a hot wheels car, and the next day he made this. (Just a joke)
Because fuck my tire tread. That's why.
My man Bill was ricer before anyone even new that existed
Is he clay Millikins dad?
No relation. You're thinking of Clay "Millican," not "Milliken." Maybe pronounced the same but the spelling is different.
Okay but you didn't even answer the question in the thumbnail "Why so much camber?"
Research
So why is this technology not used on any other racing cars? or, wots the downside?
It was a research car, I believe all the interesting and mechanical stuff is in the book
Severe camber has a negative effect on wide (think modern) tyres. Start tilting a wide flat faced tyre slightly sideways, and you'll see that it will quiuckly run out of surface contact. This idea would have made more sense back in it's own time.
@@robertrobinson3861 Apologies Robert, but I felt that was so obvious as to remain unsaid from my question, not meant in a cheek way btw. And bigger motorcycle tyres like fitted to superbikes would surely go a long way, judging from the lunatic power they can put down. So apart from that one thing. . .
@@VisioRacer thank you VR.
@@marcusgault9909 No offence taken, Marcus. Cheers.
✋🏼🇦🇺👍🏼
Thumbnail provided by stance idiots who say "Look! It was on a race car!'
Yeah NDP
no American narrators ?
Leave it to a yank to invent stance