M1 Thompson: Savage Simplifies the SMG
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The Thompson submachine gun struggled to find a market when it was originally produced, with the first batch of 15,000 Colt-made guns not finally all selling until the late 1930s. By that time, the clouds of war were gathering, and demand for submachine guns finally began to really grow. The US military had some Thompsons, and the British began buying as many as they could. The US wanted to increase production, and that meant simplifying the gun, both to reduce cost and to increase manufacturing efficiency. Talks to this end began in late 1941, and by February 1942 the engineers at Savage had a prototype of what would become the M1 Thompson.
This new version simplified almost every element of the gun, but most significantly it replaced the 3-piece Blish lock bolt with a solid one-piece affair that just worked as a normal blowback action. Unnecessary elements like the vertical front grip, Cutt’s compensator, quick-detach stock, and fancy contoured selector levers were discarded. The adjustable Lyman rear sight was replaced by a single metal tab with an aperture (quickly given a set of protective wings though, as the tab alone proved too fragile). The recoil guide rod was simplified, the oiling pads inside the receiver removed, and a simpler recoil buffer designed. The capability to use drum magazines was also discarded, and a new 30-round box magazine took their place.
The M1 was adopted in the spring of 1942, and July saw the first major delivery, of 48,000 guns. Simplifiecation work continued, however, and by the end of October a yet-simpler M1A1 pattern was adopted. This model replaced the hammer mechanism with a fixed firing pin. As a result, M1 production lasted only about 5 months. A total of 285,480 M1 Thompsons were made, but most of these were retrofitted to M1A1 configuration by simply swapping in the simpler new bolt. Finding intact M1 configuration guns is rather unusual today as a result.
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I am approaching 60 years old....when I about 8 years old my father had one of those Shop Smith wood working machines......He made me an all wood Thompson....Many years later I purchased a 1928 Semi Auto Thompson.......I have half a dozen pictures of my father shooting the Thompson with a grin that you could not erase
Oh that's wonderful. Thank you for sharing. It seems this gun has a certain captivating quality! I've found Ian's comment sections, as well as The Chieftain/Nicholas Moran (a former tanker turned historian) often bring out some lovely memories and stories from commenters and I always have such a nice time reading them. My (now 60 year old as well) father was given a Lee Enfield to fire as part of the Scouts (or a similar organisation, I'll have to ask him) when he was 8 and nowadays he's frankly shocked he was allowed to! He couldn't lift it much at all, and almost fell over from the recoil even considering its mass. A funny, though hair raising tale. His father, who encouraged him into it never talked much of the war, nor the Korean war of which he also fought in as a medic, as due to his faith he would not fire upon another man in anger. After his passing we found an enormous NATO flag with all signatory nations stitched onto it, and where he'd been stationed as well as on leave marked, as well as large scrapbooks full of photographs from pre-war going all the way through until the early-mid 50s, detailing our English newspapers about Hitler coming to power, war brewing, and what he could find while overseas in France, Belgium, Germany, and small periods on leave whilst in Korea. Fascinating man with a quiet interest in contemporary events turned modern history that I miss dearly. Sorry for the run on text, few probably want to read such things! But I thought the talk of our forefathers fit.
RIP GREATEST Me Too! "I Miss You!" Ya'll Y"ALL!!
I guess it's been almost 25 hrs since I ran across a brand new replica Thompson M1A1 for $750 in a gunstore downstate. Still kills me that I couldn't buy it; but two small kids and a mortgage came first
When I was a kid, I actually made myself a Thompson out of wood. It was the "GI version" like the M1A1, of course. I also made a 1911 to go with it. The Thompson got messed up later on, but I still have my 1911, even has a small nail for a front sight. Very cool story you related, thanks for sharing.
I've got a shop Smith from my grandfather...super cool. It's literally everything...just a steep learning curve and a lot of jig building.
I got to use one in Vietnam, it was a real A1, some one just showed up with 2 of them and 12 Magazines one day. He needed some Penicillin for the "Love Flu" and didn't want it on his Medical Records. So being the wise Corpsman I treated him for the prescribed amount of time and got the guns and gear. The Unit Armorer gave them a once over and they became very popular for patrols. They were still serving the Marines when my tour ended in 70.
That's a really good story, thanks for sharing! 👍🏻
Medics and supply folks usually got over thusly..plenty of "trade bait"...
Us: "we simplified the Thompson at great expense" The British about to invent the sten: "haha, toob"
US later in 1943 after inventing the M3 grease gun: hehe toob.
The toob brotherhood The brothertoob?
Fifteen bucks of freedom
Soviets on PPS.....Da
The ANZACs were also in the toob cult with the incredible Owen. Arguably, the best WW2 SMG. They were vastly preferred over the F1 in Vietnam.
I'm certain that Ian has an apartment in the Morphy's warehouse. He's wearing pajama bottoms and hiding a hot cup of cocoa.
.most likely...
he works there organizing the warehouse and gets permission from the seller or buyer to film the guns
@spiderenigma2803 pretty sure he doesn't work there
Cot bed just out of shot
Smoking jacket and globe liquor cabinet just outside the shot
The rear sight is actually riveted in place, not spot welded. I own an M1 Thompson. It's a nice firing weapon. I actually have 3 bolts for my gun. The one shown here is the "shiny" bolt, and I have a shiny bolt, a blue bolt, and an M1A1 fixed firing pin bolt. I usually run it with the blue bolt and the hammer system which it came with when I bought it. I keep a couple spare barrels too just in case something tragic happens, and a lot of spare parts. Never needed them though. My dad carried an M1 Thompson in WWII. I have pictures of that, it's cool history.
Thank you for clarification of the rear sight mounting. It is also my understanding that the cross bolt reinforcement of the stock was an A1 feature. Scott
@@scottcallahan3470 I believe that's correct on the cross bolt. My Thompson was a GI smuggle back. It was amnesty registered in '64 and someone put a 1928 bbl on it with Cutts compensator and the entire weapon was chromed. I had it rebuilt with the correct M1 bbl, stripped and put back into dark blue instead of a parkerized finish. My original lower had a cross bolt. No idea why someone would have thought a bright chrome finish on an M1 Thompson would look cool. The trigger and selector switches had been gold plated. Very strange to see on a military gun.
@@Dolphinvet Back in the day....shiny was thought of as an improvement....hence the chrome Lugers, P38's and such that we used to see. You've got to admit that producing a chromed Thompson out of the case at the range would draw some attention...both good and bad.
generally speaking, "shiny" thompson parts are just nickel steel
@@Dolphinvet the stock cross bolt was introduced in mid-1943 on the M1A1 model.
I know this channel was originally for obscure weapons, but I really enjoy the episodes on much more common weapons too.
Sometimes it’s also common knowledge guns made by a very rare manufacturer. The channel has been around forever and never fails to educate and entertain
Definitely, especially the M14 episode. I found that very informative with regards to how it was received in real life after having seen it games my whole life.
ill never forget the comment on an older thompson video "Welcome back to forgotten weapons" "This is one of the most iconic submachine guns"
@@ICECAPPEDSKY Also at some point you're going to run out of "Forgotten" or "Rare" weapons, so you kinda have to go to less obscure ones.
“Part sinner part saint.” “The Thompson truly was the gun that made the Twenties roar.” -*Ahoy*
I read the book by that title.
It was also called the Chicago typewriter
according to my dad, this was my great-grandfathers favorite gun in ww2, he fought on Okinawa. Pretty crazy how if he didnt make it back i wouldn't be typing this comment right now
You owe your life to the Thompson submachine gun.
@@goforbroke4428 Just like Brandon Herrera owes his life to the M3 Grease Gun.
@@goforbroke4428 thats what i was thinking, its pretty crazy. I heard a story that he was on patrol or something like that, and he spotted a machine gun nest and saw that they saw him, and thinking quickly he acted like he didn’t see them and waved behind him and said “cmon boys!” and kept going tricking them into waiting for the men to come behind him that weren’t there. He then snuck up above them and rolled a grenade into the position. Pretty awesome. He also had marksman badges and stuff and some purple hearts, one he earned in close quarters knife combat where he got his hand sliced open. I think he also carried a flamethrower at one point which is pretty crazy considering what the japs did if they caught someone with one. He brought back tons of pictures, two rifles, an officers sword + binos w/ case + revolver, and a katana that a family had given him as a gift I suppose while he dined with them. Pretty crazy stuff. We’ve got one of the rifles, its an early war Type 99 Arisaka with all matching serial numbers, anti aircraft sight ladder, and the dust cover all intact. I don’t even know how he managed to do it lol.
800 rounds per minute saved your family line.
The Atom Bomb saved many family lineages.
Beware the “I needs my money, see?” To “Buy war bonds” pipeline
"I need my money to buy war bonds."
@@angusmillerablePatriotic Gangster shakes down small businesses to buy war bonds, read all about it
Praise Ian for including SMG in the title. Otherwise I would have thought he was talking about the M1 rifle, or M1 Carbine, or M1 helmet, or the M1 bayonet, or iconic the M1 latex condom.
You forgot M1 main battle tank.
And the ever lovable M1 Flamethrower
Very disappointed there was zero helmet content...
And the rocket launcher.
Lets not forget the venerable M1 howitzer of 240mm
My grandfather (Beds & Herts Regiment) joined up in 1939 and was issued a Thompson. His only confirmed kill with it was as the pointman, creeping along a wooded road in France. A battered and bruised lone German officer stumbled out of the bushes and rapidly fired off his sidearm at point blank range. He somehow missed my grandad and his men, and the Thompson dropped him. Grandad said he emptied his entire mag into the German, then puked his guts out immediately while getting a pat on the back from his guys.
Years ago, I saw a set of a Thompson and a 1911 that were made to be sold as a package. I remember it being $1000. The day after the show, I was wondering if I should have bought that set. Now, I wish I would have.
You mean like 50 years ago?
@@Tunechi_Lee 50 bucks says he's referring to a semi-auto 16" barrel Auto Ordnance, which is what makes the most sense. You're thinking he's referring to an open bolt MG? Highly unlikely. Even 50 years ago.
@@rodgersmith1573 I mean you could still register machine guns back 50 years ago in the 1970's. It could have been a surplus Thompson that got into the civilian sector.
@@gagekieffer772Even in the 70's a thousand dollars was ridiculously low for a full auto Thompson.
Cool. My M1A1 started life as an M1. It then had an A1 crudely stamped on it when it was converted to M1A1
I’ve had a thing for the M1 Thompson ever since I saw Clint Eastwood carrying one around in Kelly’s Heroes. I first saw the movie when I was a kid, and 40+ years later the film (and gun) is still one of my favs.
Just told my wife who asked what I’m watching - The Bob Ross of Machine guns!
That is hilarious dude…I never thought about it like that 😂🤙
"Savage's Engineer" sound pretty based on a CV!
When Fuddblasters did their episode on the Thompson and mentioned the Savage simplified version was the best one, I had to look through your old archive of Thompson videos for more info. Thanks for this video.
The stamped / engraved markings on the side of the Thompson are so iconic
the Thompson might be the only gun that have a bad guy and good guy variant.
Bad guy variant has drum magazine and front handle. It is used to do prohibition drive-by.
I feel like i only see the silver berettas used by bad guys in movies lol
I had completely forgotten about the oiler pads on old-school Tommy-guns! With their relatively long and illustrious career, it's easy to forget they're interwar guns. The simplified iteration is still so massively intensive in terms of requisite tooling and machine-hours, Savage's optimistic projection of 125k/mo. production boggles the mind.
Ahh my uncle Billy carried on in Saipan. He said they were coveted because they could shot through brush decently due to the fat 230grain 45acp. He was stationed as a mortarman in Iceland at the start of the War. Of of few Marines that had a theater badge from both sides. His name was William Authur Ryan from South Boston. He then served in Korea with the Army. He was the toughest SOB I have ever met
"they were coveted because they could shot through brush decently due to the fat 230grain 45acp" as opposed to what other period round in US service? Literally everything else they had access to was way more energy than 45acp at the time, unless you are comparing them to officers that might have a 32acp pistol specifically because they would never need to fire it.
Shoot through the brush? What rounds did the .45acp have a leg up on in terms of that spurious data point? Sounds like the very beginning of some fudd lore.
The 45 is not renowned for being able to shoot through anything. Big, fat, slow bullet tends to get hung up pretty easily. When it comes to shooting through brush, we've found the faster the rifling twist, the better the bullet resists twigs & limbs. So, the 30-06 was probably the most effective in the jungle for several reasons.
You guys, he's passing on what his believe uncle, one of the greatest generation, told him. There are lots of things that military men believed that weren't necessarily true (just look at .30 Carbine) but give him a break. Respect and appreciation to the uncle.
@@tls29 we can respect his actions while pointing out what he said to his family members and ultimately what that family member is now spreading.. doesn't make any sense
In the 1960’s, surplus dealers were selling these for only $59.50 each. Pretty cheap until you have to ante up $200.00 for the Tax Stamp!
$200 even then seems pretty good value to be able to own a full auto Thompson
I have fired two M1A1’s, I love handling them. Still wish I could lay hands on a 28A1, though…
I have seen period photos of M1928A1s with the L shape rear sight, no fins on the barrel, and no cuts compensator, or some combination of those features. It just goes to show how Savage and Auto Ordnance were trying to ease production difficulties.
And in video games the common mistake referring to the m1 or m1a1 Thompsons as m1928 Thompson
And in video games if there is a drum mag they rarely slide in from the side like Ian described. They just get shoved up in there.
@@pallas_weptBut are military designations copyrighted?
@@pallas_weptAbsolutely false and nonsensical.
And the Thompson was use by nco
The m1928 version of Thompson has a forward grip, 50 round drum mag, different barrel and a top bolt
The M1 Thompson was made with my personal every day mantra in mind "Good enough is good enough"
Never enough thompson info/videos, will watch every single time Ian Salute from VA!
I love this channel. It combines my two great loves, history and firearms engineering. It can't get any better than that. Life is good!
These are always my favorite videos where you get to see the evolution of the same gun throughout its different revisions. I always like seeing how they simplify parts along the the way.
Legend has it that the Thompson program was the last time the us government cared about indiscriminate spending and wasting taxpayer money.
😂😅😂😅😂😅😂😅😂
I believe that.
NASA has entered the chat
And you actually give a fuck about taxpayer money? You have no idea about how most of taxes are spent. And this coming from someone who spends half his money on crap Chinese shit from Walmart.
As Ian said, the reduced cost was just a nice side effect. They really just wanted more guns which is generally the goal of wartime simplifications.
My father carried a Thompson while he was a corporal in Yugoslav navy.
Thank you Ian! Always fascinating and informative! Cheers, Petr
The rear sight isn’t welded, but riveted
Thought so. Those spots *did* look riveted.
my brother-in-law was a Huey Cobra pilot in the very early 70s and he won a WW2 era Thompson in a poker game - they were valued because the 45 ACP round was relatively low velocity, so jungle vegetation wouldn't deflect the round (unlike a M16) and it had immediate stopping power
My father trained with both versions in WW2, and once told me that the early ones were heavy and jam-prone, and the later box magazine guns were appreciated for lightness, but the front pistol grip was missed. He told me that he was expected to use full auto only in a dire emergency, and then in three round bursts. He also said that fired as a carbine, it was surprisingly accurate and controllable. He was later issued a Sten and told me of slam fires, and several accidental discharges....troops would climb onto a vehicle, snag the charging handle on webbing or netting, then draw it back enough to fire the weapon. They were told that a Sten cost 2 pounds to manufacture....
Fantastic review of an iconic weapon! thank you very much Ian......greatly appreciated.
Now I just see there was a gap between M1928A1 and M1A1 in Thompson's playlist.
it is funny how complicated even the simplified Thompson is for being just an open bolt simple blowback gun
It is amazing how quickly they got things approved and done!
Tremendous!! Thank you.
Can't get enough of the Thompson.
Fascinating, thank you 👍
I was wondering about the differences between the M1 and M1A1 just yesterday. Great timing!
Great video!!!! Thank you so much for explaining it in detail 👍👍👍👍👍
Wow, you finally found one. Thanks for showing it to us!
I don't even like the Thompson but, when Ian speaks, I listen.
M1 soldier, M1 jeep, m1 rations, M1 uniform shirt….. M1 fighter plane,M1 latrine . Not at all confusing there uncle Sam!?!
"Hey give me the submachine gun, we have to go around in the car"
Gotta be that dude and point out that aircraft didn't use the M designation.
“We’re under attack! Throw on your M1, grab your M1, and jump in the M1!” “What about my M1!?” “Sure, bring that too!”
I smelled it when you said that word 💀
if you need a model name to tell the difference between a latrine and a Jeep...
Nice, i just re watched some of the old Thompson videos... Ian bless me with another one
Great video and very informative.
Yep, I remember that series.
FINALLY, someone posting some well rounded information on the Thompson instead of just sh*tposts about how "bad" it was... it was a product of its time and got the job done with flying colors.
Excellent, thank you sir. I do hope you get the chance to review the West Hurley Thompsons. They get some grief, but they are an additional chapter to the Thompson story.
A few decades ago, LA County Sheriffs had some M1A1s with Cutts Compensator and the QD buttstock. Dunno if they were hybrids, or simply had the grooves machined into the lowers. They also had some M1928s. The Cutts on the M1A1s, bosted controllability, even when firing the standard 3 - 5 round burst, but added a noticeable amount of muzzle blast.
Thanks again Ian
Maybe outdated by today's standards, but, honestly... Anything that spits out 45ACP in full auto is scary
The US Special Operations rolled out .458 Beowulf uppers for the M16/M4 for close quarters operation.
@@shawnr771 I think you're mixing up 458 socom with 50 beowulf
@@shawnr771 .458 Socom, 'Beowulf' is .50 Beowulf (12.7x42mm)
Great video Gun Jesus, your wisdom is infinite, for I have learned previously unknown knowledge of the Thompson. I thank you sir.
Thanks again
Very nice video, Appreciate it!!!!
Reaches under the table and comes out with my holy grail of guns
Love it! The fact the military used this big ass hunck of metal is amazing.
Hell yeah man very informative
Very interesting!! Thanks for sharing.
Thanks that was very interesting
Besides cost reduction technically reducing the number of parts increases the reliability.
I love this man so much
Thanks
I know Vic Marrow from "Combat" had one.
I love the naked engineering of the selector switches. To me, they actually look beautiful. The minimum for function is marvellous.
Having a m1928a1 myself, they shoot nice and controllable with cutts compensator. Would be interested to see the difference without. I also know the cyclic rate changes with each variation.
I picked up an original at the scene of a find of PIRA weapons in Londonderry in 1976, and passed it on to the relevant laboratory (DRC), but not before examining all of the internals out of curiosity. A very interesting gun, particularly the H! Far too heavy, though, I thought, for an assault weapon; strictly a spray and pray for a gangster.
Superb!
Imagine if during Prohibition and Great Depression instead of expensive Thompson, the STEN or "Greese Gun" had hit the streets en masse?
Cool to finally see the one pattern of m1 we couldn’t get those years ago. I remember watching that series a few times!
Not being new to firearms, but being new to the enter workings of a Tommy gun. So to speak, man, this was an awesome video, thank you.
Thanks Ian for a great review of this version of the Thompson as well as the others. Although I have some excellent firearms in my collection my 1928 Thompson is the favorite.
Savage Arms in Utica, NY. My hometown for the win!
We have an Utica in North Wales, UK . Wonder if there's a historic link ??
@@causewaykayak I was always told it was named after the Utica of the Carthage Empire. Neighboring cities to Utica, NY include Rome, Amsterdam and Syracuse. Some of the adjacent smaller villages include Paris and Poland.
Thanks for the information. I see Utica hosts North American Festival of Wales from time to time. A lot of places in N Wales have middle eastern place names. Its from a time when Religious Revival was married to political protest. I guess it was a way if asserting independence of allegiances. Place names are very interesting . Thanks again for the trouble you took to reply
I think Savage is one of the unsung heroes of WW2 production. They made a million Lee Enfields between 1941 and 1944.
Several years ago on a trip to Front Sight Range in Nevada had a choice of firing an M16, Uzi, or Thompson. Ran 3 mags through the Thompson. Fun time.
Nice completion for the Tmopson series. Looking at all of them is just like traveling from Hiram Maxim and Colt Era with some fine machining details amd wood parts down to Sten or PPS period like "let es just bend some sheet of metal and weld some barrel on it". This is also clear end point of maximum of "forced evoltuon" for this gun's type, which never could achieve a level of simplicity and manfucturability of the guns like Greas Gun etc
I fired a Thompson SMG once, but I don't know if it was an M1 or and M1A1. What I do know is that it was so old and used that when the rounds came out of the barrel, they were already starting to tumble, so instead of nice, round bullet holes in the target, you had silhouettes of the rounds going thru the target sideways. I was also surprised at how much the Thompson didn't kick. I have a 1911 and was expecting a good kick in automatic, but the weight of the Thompson really damped the kick of the 45 round.
I have here Thompson M1 with number in range 117XX made by Savage and it has not cover for rear sights. Safe and semi auto controls are like from M1928.
Just when we all thought we knew something, here comes Ian! Good video, learned a lot, thank you once again. All of your content is Very Enjoyable mainly due to you integrating politics, economics and history all in one - giving us a good feel for why things happened as they did.
Stranger, Stranger, now that's a weapon!
Still want the Chicago typewriter. That series on the other 3 was my favorite set of videos you've done
I had a Lee Enfield No. 4 made by Savage, it was in good shape and quite well made. The coolest part was it was marked as U.S. property.
With the M1 being able to be put on safe with the bolt forward it also prevents the gun from chambering a round if dropped.
This weapon allowed me to single handedly defeat the germans in the medal of honour games. I will always think of it fondly.
If you can find one, look up the Volunteer Firearms reproductions of these. Semi-auto only, patterned halfway between the 1928 and the M1, but with a really funky mag-well. They were all made by some guys my Dad worked with at Oak Ridge in the early '60s, in their garage machine shop. Nice variant, not a lot were made, but still quite functional. --Dan
Nice Marathon Arctic GSAR there
Great video, thanks Ian and everyone at Forgotten Weapons. It seems the bolt change between the M1 and M1A1 was significant in simplifying manufacture but didn't really affect the performance of the gun in literally any way (except *possibly* making it slightly safer), while maintaining full parts compatibility. With that in mind it's a little surprising to me that any effort was made to convert the M1s to A1s; I imagine the only reason to do so would be to replace a damaged bolt. Is there something I'm missing here? Is it literally the case that conversion to A1 mostly only occurred when the bolt needed replacing?
Hey Ian, you should do a variety episode on the many BB guns throughout history! Would love to see some uncommon examples alongside the classics that were the first shooters of many.
One of the most iconic firearms of all time, especially with the drum mag in place. These were the icon firearm of mobsters in Hollywood movies.
Great video brother Ian 🙏 God bless✝️
Greatest weapon ever made
Man, if you took off the stock and changed the pistol grip, this gun would look modern, if not futuristic. It's crazy how ahead of it's time, and how almost art deco this gun looks.
I own both a 28 and M1A1, the M1A1 is a vast improvement in function to the Thompson. Also, anyone who says that the Thompson was hard to shoot either never shot one or has short arms (the buttstock is kind of long).
Combination of Sgt Rock, Audie Murphy and Vic Morris made the Thompson on my dreams. Had the Mattel green camo model as a child in the 60's. Finally achieved my bucket list and have a 1928A1!
Maybe, hopefully, you meant to say "Vic Morrow"?
Wow '' the Chicago Typewriter , Turned the M1 , Great Video Ian 💯💥💥💥💥💥💥💥
12:15 Bless you
Ian also has a whole series on the Thompson SMGs in the Forgotten Weapons archive.