GNX or GTN to equip your aircraft build for IFR?
2020 ж. 12 Сәу.
108 177 Рет қаралды
www.midwestpanels.com
shop.midwestpanels.com This video gives a comprehensive look at the question we get a lot. Should I equip my new build with a GTN 650 which has a navigation radio built in or go with a GNX 375 WAAS receiver as a sole source of navigation. We explain how it's possible to equip your plane for IFR with only a WAAAS GPS and what some of the arguments are against it and what we tell customers. Both units are incredibly capable and as mentioned in the video, we are not trying to change anybody minds we just want to help answer questions builders have with known facts.
This was a fantastic video. Would love to see more like it.
Lots of great information, thank you and keep up the good work!
Great video as I shop around and try and decide on my panel upgrades!
I learned how to fly at sling pilot academy, now fly as a professional and have only flown glass panels and waas. In 4+ years of flying and at 1300+ hrs, I have never had any issues with waas.
Very informative video. Thanks so much for posting it ! Keep them coming.
Really well done video, professional and thorough and has been a big help in helping me decide what navigation unit to go with.
An absolutely great and informative video. Thanks from across the Atlantic
Thank you for putting together this presentation. It opened my eyes to some options that I have not considered
Awesome presentation sir.
Very nice video, thanks for having all the links to the relevant FAR/AIMs too
Much needed video explaining the differences in these models
Exactly the video I was looking for. Thanks!!
Very good video, precise, well referenced, down to the point, fast paced, Steve knows GPS and WASS very well.
Wow. That was a very thorough explanation. Well Done.
You have really good presentation skills!
Fantastic info and presentation, thank you.
Excellent overview!
Excellent presentation. Thank you, Steve.
Excellent detailed rational information. Thank you
Good stuff. Helps clear up some 'important' things when considering which way to go. Thanks for the post. Cheers, Chuck (NE Florida) : +)
This is by far the best video I have found on this topic. Thank you! Great work.
Outstanding video! Thank you! 🙏🏻
OUTSTANDING video SteveO ! You really did your research.
THANKS for the explanation.
Very informative and I love how you explained the pricing points and reasons why pricing can vary with functionality, etc. I think you just saved a lot of pilots a lot of money.
I really like this video. I have no idea what all the different models cover and this clears up a bunch of that. Thanks
Great details simply explained. Thanks
Excellent video and information.
outstanding insight for keeping decisions real thanks
Great video. Though I've watched it before, in prep for which gps nav to buy for my BE35, I now need new comm radio too
Very nice detailed explanation. Thanks
Excellent video
Very informative. I went with the GTN 650 for the very reasons you brought up
One great video, expertly done with poignant and relevant information given .thank you
Good video, well done!
Fantastic explanation!
It's more money, but I'm old school and they will be ripping the VOR's and ILS's from my cold dead fingertips :) You all do really beautiful work.
Maybe sooner than you think. Thank you for the compliment!
Yep, they will.
Very informative. Thankyou
Another great video. Thanks again.
Thanks for the info
Great video, awesome information. I'm a student pilot getting ready to build a Zenith Super Duty and this video shows me some options
Wow - a wealth of helpful information as I attempt to figure out what my IFR panel needs will be for my RV14A. Many thanks..!
I have a while to wait for a panel for mine but this really made me think of what my needs truly are especially that 375 inclusion of a transponder. Excellent video
Very helpful Thankyou
Great video, thank you!
Working on my instrument rating, flying my plane with a 375. This cleared up so much. Thanks!
What a great video! I’d like to point out that 125 only applies to large aircraft, 20 seats or more and/or 6000 lb. payload. Still a great idea to have that backup option though. Even in the smallest of aircraft.
nice job Sir,,,
GOOD JOB! Yes, 375 is my choise.
Great presentation...!!!
Thanks for doing this. I was whining over on FB about the lack of space for a 750 over the 650 (I’m sure I was trying the patience of whomever was responding to me). The demo of what the G3X can do with the 650 pretty much answered all of the questions as to why I would want to stop complaining.
Might I add that you are awesome at doing these videos. Garmin and the other companies would be wise to have you review all their products.
Excellent sir! I just went GPS only on my Aerostar. Pulled a bunch of '75 Collins out. and I went the GNC355a plus two KY196's and the new 3 com 345 Audio Panel. Additionally I have a stand alone GDL 50 and Aerra 760...... My mistake was using a 330esd instead of the 345 transponder. I may add a 375 thus giving me redundant transponders and the traffic and weather on all devices.
Awesome video!
Great video!
Incredible level of detail and professional approach, even reviewing FAA regs on screen. Thank you!
Excellent! Thanks!
You are an excellent presenter of knowledge, sir. I appreciate your video and teaching presentations.
Thanks for watching!
Another great video!
My head is about to explode! Young man did an excellent job explaining Garmin's offerings and knowledge on the WAAS/GPS relationship. My present stack was modern when they transitioned from soup cans and string. Hell I still have an ADF on board. Mucho dinero to replace 😢. Refinance the house and get a 650xi...lol
great information!
Excellent presentation. I'm planning on a Sling TSi. I wish you guys were here in the UK to build the panel! (subscribed)
Hi Bob, We have built several panels and have several more to build for Slings in the UK.
This vid is great, but it is 3 years old. I’m 99% sure that about 2 years ago the FAA issued a bulletin stating that you can take your IFR check-ride with a GPS-only panel, like the Garmin 175, 375, 625, or even the 400W.
Thanks for watching, another viewer mentioned the same thing as you have in this comment so I set out to find the answer and will be posting a follow up video to this. What we found is that the bulletin you are referring to did allow LPV to be counted as a precision approach which was one of the hang ups in the discussion but when I called my local FISDO to discuss the topic, they had a another item they pointed out that would still keep their opinion on the side of not allowing it for a check ride, we will show this in the update video.
Great video! I think my decision will be the 375. Having the transponder built in is a great feature. I honestly thought about getting a separate NAV radio, but I don't think it will get used enough to justify the cost. The small screen is a little annoying, but it can be loaded onto the G3X.
Thank you for your information, we want to replace the KLN 90B in a bell 430 and i think GNX 375 is the only one GPS (+ ads-b) will fit with small space at pedestal.
Great Video!
Very informative vid, thanks for taking the trouble.
Any time, Paul. Thanks for watching!
Thanks for this presentation. I chose a G175 which will allow me to perform RNAV/LPV approaches. My plan for the plane is to be a VFR Plane with IFR capability. This will allow me to either get on the ground if weather comes in, or get out of somewhere to get to VFR conditions.
I think I made the right decision…dual g5 with a 375…great video!
What a fantastic and clear explanation of the options. I have a 375 in a Husky and it almost seems like I could add two 275s and a magnetometer to be certified IFR capable. Do I read that right?
Great video. I have a 650 in my panel and would choose the 375 if it would have been available at that time. There will be more GPS approaches in the future, especially at smaller airports. ILS will not go away at bigger airports. VORs are almost obsolete. After owning my RV-10 for 6 years and 400 hrs I only had to fly 2 real IFR approaches to the minimum. I think a lot of people get carried away with all those screens. It also doesn't matter if you're owning the newest equipment. What matters is that you can operate it properly under IFR and a full pattern.
ILS may not go away soon but it will go eventually, as they are working on a system called GBAS, Ground Based Augmentation System that will allow one tower to cover all the runways at an airport as unlike ILS which only covers one landing direction into a runway and it will allow CATIII type approaches. Huge money savings over ILS with the same accuracy and minimums.
Great video. GPS does not use triangulation, it uses trilateration.
Just stumbled across this video. This is fantastic! Being 3 years old, I wonder how much is out of date now? At '23 AirVenture, we were talking to the Garmin rep about Garmin's 355, 375, 650, and 750. I have had 3 CFIIs and 2 pilot friends, 1 of which is ATP, helping me understand which is right for me with differing answers across the board. Building an RV-10 and about halfway right now, waiting on QB Cabin and starting my IFR training hoping to better understand this. I would be flying VFR 99% of the time, with occasional light IFR to get through clouds and out of Denver. Heavy IFR here is ice and that accumulates quickly on the Van's thick wings. Overall, I want to be /G and able to do approaches to numerous airports, many of which don't have ILS anyways. Your GPS is the redundancy to WAAS makes me think I don't need the Garmin G5 either?
Steve and Adam, I recently discovered your channel and I've thoroughly enjoyed videos and the information. I am getting ready to build an aircraft (model not decided yet) and this video triggered a question which I've not been able to find an answer. I'm hoping you guys can help. I've noticed that most people using the G3X system will pair a GTN device with a GTR200 or GTR20 as their second comm. If I went with a GNC 255 for both the second radio and Nav, I know the G3X can control both the radio and nav portions. However, is there a way for the G3X to display VOR/ILS information from both Navs (like a cross radial identifying a fix on an ILS approach)?? Or would a secondary display like a G5 or GI-106 be required?? I know I'm thinking old school by wanting a second Nav radio but I can't shake the question and capability. Thanks for your thoughts.
Good Info! I already have a good KT-76C digital transponder with GDL82 ADS B. Additionally, a GNS430w and a KX155 with glideslope. So... just add a GPS 175 and a newer generation iPad with Garmin Pilot for the nice big display and Bluetooth connectivity, creating a great setup for under 5k! The nice thing about iPad display is with the right mount, it can be right at your fingertips and have an even bigger and in some ways more versatile display than a GTN 750. Basically, the 175 and KX155 give you everything for a #1 GPS/Nav/Com, and the 430w becomes the #2 backup. Cool thing is that you can Bluetooth your flight plans from the iPad with either Garmin Pilot or Foreflight apps to the 175 and it can then cross fill them to the 430w. I'm also considering some of the GI 275 stuff that also connects with Bluetooth when upgrading round instruments or getting rid of a vacuum system. Lots of info for relatively small bucks (in avionics terms) and can keep the round gauges for backups and retain the retro look in my classic.
that was a great video
I went with the GTX-375 with GNC-255a. The 255 was a better value than a 650 plus a transponder. Although I'm surprised that the 375 doesn't push frequencies to the 255.
Great video and explanation!! I've been trying to decide whether to go GTN or GNX375 + GTR255 and this confirmed what I suspected. Costs is a few hundred more than the GTN650xi for the GNX375 + GNC 255, but you get a transponder. Add in one more com radio and you have redundant GPS + Nav and redundant com including separate chassis so no single point of failure for everything.
My plan exactly, GNX375 + GNC255 + GNC225, separate HSI for the Navcom.
Wow, I'm old. When I first started looking into getting my pilot's license GPS wasn't allowed for IFR at all.
This is a great video but I do have one question. I have an older non-gps IFR stack with DME and a KX155 with glide slope and another KX155 without glideslope. I'm thinking of getting either a gtn650 or the gnc355. I'm wondering if I should get the gnc355 and install a g3x to get more real estate or if I should get the gtn650 with G5s?
👍good job!
Nice job! Confirms my thoughts on having only a WAAS GPS for light IFR in my experimental. I really appreciate the objectivity. I'd like to hear a discussion on the 375 VS a 175 with an EchoUAT out, and a 327 and GDL 50 to feed the G3-x,
Huh?
I like all those “hunerds” being saved. I have an existing 430w and probably going to add the 375 for a transponder and backup nav.
The 375 naviator is far better. You can create random holds, it has lateral and vertical guidance to VFR runways, and more. Its a next generation.
great video/ I enjoyed your take and presentation. I did however find that when you were talking about the gnx375 at the 15:18, you had showed and commented on the gtr 20 paired with it when this is not possible. My understanding is its only compatible with a g3x. I can not find any documentation or menus in the gnx375 to support this.
Correct, the GTR 20 is only compatible with the G3X. We build Experiental panels so G3X is what we work with. If you were putting this in certified without G3X then you would have to use rack mounted radios.
Awesome presentation with excellent information. Question Do you build panels fro certified AIRCRAFT?
We do when we team up with our friends at Lapeer Aviation.
Great video...watched the whole thing and realized you are out of my airport!!! D95
14CFR125 applies to no homebuilt. What it does apply to would require a second navigation source. A GPS with WAAS is ONE source. To encourage IFR operations with one navigation source is ill advised particularly when it is your com source as well. One box quits (and they do quit from time to time) and you wont be shooting any approach ASR or otherwise. And yes the ACS require more than a GPS approach for the rating. Good overview of the garmin offerings though.
landinggearup not only have I instructed in aircraft with one NAV Com but many fly with one. If I lost my GPS it wouldn’t really be that big of a deal, yes you can shoot an ASR approach without a GPS, same as a no gyro approach.
Midwest Panel Builders....landing gear up is correct. Part 125 has NOTHING to do with small planes. Basically, that is for planes with more than 20 pax. Like they said the rest of the video is good though.
I don't think single source is an appreciable risk as there are much greater dangers to IFR flying, especially in a single engine recip. There is a degree of redundancy if a G3X is installed as that will have a sufficient nav capability to mostly fix the nav problem, albeit the PIC will have to make a certain declaration to legally use that backup source. Also, an IFR flight will almost always be operating in a radar environment so the controller can provide navigation and terrain separation. Money is probably better spent on a good, reliable powerplant. JMHO.
GPS175 can be used for an instrument check ride. To execute a non precision approach, you turn WAAS to shoot a LNAV non precision approach.
You mean turn WAAS off to shoot LNAV ? And the second non precision approach use LPV to greater than 300 ft min ? What about needed two nav aids ?
I'm in the US but plan to fly to Canada and also the Caribbean. Is GPS-WAAS with a GNX acceptable or will I need a GTN with the VHF nav capability? Thanks, and GREAT videos!
I’ve been flying an arrow a lot that my club owns and on a IFR flight yesterday my alternator went without warning then within two minutes everything went dark including the 375. Because of the 375 having the transponder in it I couldn’t even squawk 7600. Luckily the wx was pretty much VFR had a alternate in mind but I decided to flicker the master switch one more time and the lights back on and used that opportunity to lower the gear and radioed atc to inform them of my situation. These units are a great when everything is working but one must be prepared to utilize those pilotage and dead reckoning skills.
If everything went dark, your transponder probably would have too. Backup batteries would help that also
@@MidwestPanels Very true, and do you see ga aircraft getting these backup batteries? Thanks for responding quickly.
@@rn2811 yes, more and more we are seeing it. TCW has certified units available.
@@MidwestPanels Thanks 👍
great video.. I'm planning on installing a GNC 355 along with a G5 HSI to satisfy IFR flying. Many pilots, avionics shops and FAA DE's etc are unsure of the requirements for IFR flying and IFR check rides only using a GPS WASS navigator. Can an instrument student take the IFR check ride with only a GNC 355? 3 different approaches required, For example, the same plate can be used to do an LNAV, LNAVVNAV or LPV approach in many cases. Three different approaches. Just in case, my backup plan is to install a Navcom unit tied into the G5 HSI along with a previously installed GNC 355... Just heard your last comments on IFR Checkrides. I will still install a separate Navcom if needed to satisfy IFR check rides plus gain additional redundancy with a second comm radio and second non gps nav source.
The ACS does state that you need to perform approaches by way of ground based navigation equipment so technically you can't do a check ride with only a GPS. Plus an LPV is not classified a precision approach even though it is flown the same as an ILS. The best thing to do is check with your local DPE to see their thoughts. As for IFR flying, as mentioned in the video, as long as it is WAAS its totally legal.
@@MidwestPanels First of all, CONGRATS on a superbly informative video. It is rare to see anyone dig into the FARs and the AIM in explaining this complex information. The only point I'd like to submit is that the ACS does state (A-14-15) "Localizer performance with vertical guidance (LPV) minimums with a decision altitude (DA) greater than 300 feet height above terrain (HAT) may be used as a nonprecision approach; however, due to the precision of its glidepath and localizer-like lateral navigation characteristics, an LPV minimums can be used to demonstrate precision approach proficiency (AOA VI Task B) if the DA is equal to or less than 300 feet HAT." Personally, I'd prefer to have the ILS capability. Thanks for a great job
One point that is missing is that VNAV is only available on the GTN 650 (and 750). While this relies on a capable autopilot, it is worth mentioning as part of the discussion.
All though you are correct that the GTN does VNAV and the GNX doesn't, GNX does V-Calc so you could calculate your descent if a crossing restriction was given, since most of us piston poppers do not usually fly SIDs and STARs, it is not as much of an issue.
Also two big thumbs up... I really appreciated the clarification on the regs regarding 'contination / redundancy' that helped me a great deal in understanding what is perceived vs true loss of functionality. ILS can also break or get damaged, so takes a lot of steam out of arguments regarding duplicate capability. Also, todays equipment is inherently more reliable than older gear with many aging sensitive components. Taken to the extreme i suppose some gear heads out there would have the panel so loaded the tail would need ballast...lol.
Great explanation, thanks! Does the GNX 375 need a separate CDI to be IFR certified? Doesn’t it have vertical and horizontal bugs right on the screen for a gps approach?
jpoppinmoneyunit We are glad you enjoyed the video. You do not need anything more than the G3X screen. The G3X has an HSI and displays the course as well as the glide slope if the approach uses vertical guidance. In the event that the G3X failed we can use the G5.
@@MidwestPanels But if you don't have a glass PFD, then wouldn't you have to have a nav indicator such as GI 106B to display "on course" guidance with the GNX 375 display indicating location on the course as well as localizer display? I have seen this combination advertised as a basic certified IFR setup. I was surprised to note that the GPS 175 (and I assume GNX 375) is compatible with many older nav indicators from other manufacturers.
@@Stratocruizer51 yes you would need an indicator like the GI 275, G5 or GI 106.
Great video but you want to be careful saying that you can use the G3X to manipulate any navigators as this renders your IFR navigation illegal because the only way to do this is to revert to the internal GPS (G3X) which is not IFR certified. You can however use a peripheral such as an IPad to input, change or add anything on your flight plan. This can be done without ever switching from your Navigator GPS. I have been asking Garmin Aviation since 2020 to please add the functionality of the second G3X to use as an MFD to add or modify flight plans. Nearly 4 years later, this is still not a functionality available on the 3X with any Navigator.
Thanks for you input, honestly for the 2 minutes I would switch over to the internal GPS I’m not concerned about it. There are no alarm bells ringing to ATC and to be quite honest the G3X is WAAS although not certified, so in the event you lost you Navigator you could fly everything on the G3X as a backup if you had to. Having said that I would rather use my iPad as you mention and transfer to panel as I find it easier anyway and that’s what I teach my IFR students to do.
You're good
If I may ask, in regards to taking the IFR check ride. Will a G3X, GTX375, GTR20 and a GNC 255 Nav/Com meet the requirements of being able to fly an ILS. I think so but wanted to get your thoughts. We are looking at matching the panel of the Piper 100i on our Piper Cherokee. Figured Piper did enough research in coming up with the most economical IFR panel on that trainer. We would also install the GFC 500 and one G5. Thank you
Yes, the GNC 255 would fulfill the requirement for ILS.
Good information on the various WAAS GPS navigators. Regarding the legalities of installing only one WAAS GPS navigator for IFR you reference Part 125.203, however, this regulation is not applicable to GA aircraft. Part 125.203 is specific to AIRPLANES HAVING A SEATING CAPACITY OF 20 OR MORE PASSENGERS OR A MAXIMUM PAYLOAD CAPACITY OF 6,000 POUNDS OR MORE. Part 91.205 which you cite earlier uis the applicable code governing instrument and equipment requirements for powered civil aircraft with standard category U.S. airworthiness certificates. Two-way radio communication and navigation equipment suitable for the route to be flown is all that is required. Navigation equipment, however, is addressed under the applicable Technical Standard Order (TSO). A WAAS navigator certified to TSO C-145\146 does not require alternate equipment. Therefore, only one WAAS navigator is required for IRF.
Understood, we are simply showing all regulations as they apply to GPS navigation, as it goes in aviation if it doesn't say you can't then you can. Also a TSO is not a regulation its a design spec. An STC is what specifically calls out what is required for certain installations per aircraft, such as a G3X in a certified aircraft has an STC that spells out what is required for that aircraft not a TSO, the equipment it has meets TSO for its required operation. All of this though is mainly for the experimental market and what is required for IFR, which does not fall under certified regulations to begin with.
ACS allows LPV for Precision if minimums are below 300 AGL...not sure if you need the ground based nav it would be up to the DPE of course.
Yes the ACS and other documents since this video was shot allows for the LPV to be used as a precision approach, I called my local FSDO a couple months ago to get their latest opinion and they had pointed out a section in Appendix 7 that clearly referenced ground based navigation was still needed, however I recently looked again and could no longer see that reference so I plan to call again to confirm that the GNX 375 can now be used for the check ride.
Excellent video. Lots of great information. Wouldn’t a GNX 375 + GNC255(instead of a GTR20) be a better option since it allows you have a Nav/Com? I think it would be more equivalent to the GTN650 + GTX 45R. 1 GPS, 1 Nav, 1 Com, 1 ADS-B In/out Xpdr. Or am I missing something?
I think you're right - functionally, you'd have equivalent capability, but at the cost of panel space. Also, the GNC255 is quite deep (11.23"), so it eats up space behind the panel too. It was designed more for legacy installations, so it has interfaces for HSI, autopilot, etc., that you probably wouldn't need, while on the other hand, the GTR 20 has a built-in 2-place intercom that you might actually want (and save on having to buy a comm panel, too).
Very, very, well done.... oh, and thanks for not starting with "Hi guys". R
@@patrickshine4329 I believe the GNC255A also has a built-in 2-place intercom, so I guess if you don't mind the depth, you also get panel space savings there. It's a bummer that the 650 doesn't have a built in intercom, seems like low-hanging fruit. Great video and information btw, thanks for putting this together.
I went with the GNX 375 + GNC 255 combo because of the 8.33 kHz spacing required in Europe. So gained same capabilities as an GTN 650 equipped system at the expense of panel space. The GNC is quite long, but was able to fit without much issues.
If I added a 650 to a ELSA Light sport aircraft would that allow the aircraft to fly IFR and pursue instrument training in the plane?