In this video, we explore the tale of Tal-Elmar, perhaps Tolkien's least well-known story.
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This is a testament to how vast and immersive Tolkien’s writings are. Even this brief story outline is fascinating and leaves me hoping for more.
DG: "Did you know Tolkien started writing a sequel to the LOTR called The New Shadow?" Me: "No." DG: "Of course you did." Me: ...
Haha, sorry about that, but now you know about it and now you know where to find it.
@@DarthGandalfYT All good man; keep the great content coming.
I'll be onest I was the same, "The New Shadow?" Never heard of it. Thanks DG for teaching me something new.
I was the same LOL
There is a mod for the old Rome: Barbarian Invasion game called Fourth Age, which was based on that lore, I played it many times a decade or more ago. Worth looking at, if you want to see how you could do.
Boss makes a dollar I make a dime That's why I watch Tolkien lore videos On company time
Based
bruh where do you work where you make 10% what your boss makes, that's miles above me
@@levitatingoctahedron922 A magician never reveals his secrets (it's tax evasion)
Not based at all. Based would be working at a job you believe in, not somewhere you're just another load dragging society down.
@@joemerino3243 working at a job I believe in is a luxury few can afford. I will settle for a job that brings in enough money for me to invest with.
Great stuff. I love all of Tolkien but anything not in the late 3rd age is top of the list for me. Way better than the 4,337th Gandalf video on KZhead.
I purchased Peoples of Middle Earth just so I could read Tal-Elmar, It's such a fascinating story and told from the perspective of a culture that isn't on friendly terms with either the Dúnedain or the elves, which is something we very rarely get to see. One of my favorite one-off stories despite it's incompleteness.
Peoples of Middle-earth has a lot of great stuff. It's definitely the volume I use the most for my videos.
Tal-Elmar, is such a fascinating story. Like many of his unfinished works, I wanted them to go on til the end. I have to dig out my People’s of Middle-Earth read it again. Thanks for reminding me of this lost tale.
This is why I follow this channel instead of all the other LOTR channels. You find the actually obscure stuff I had no idea about instead of making the 47th video on the same stuff everyone knows.
Personally, I think that the cruel folk of the east were northmen rather than numenoreans, they are noted as carring weapons made by the demons of the mountains, I guess those are dwarves
I agree; Hazad also says that they hold three peoples as enemies: the wild men of the mountains/woods (Druedain?); the High Men of the Sea (Numenoreans?) and the Fell Folk of the East (relatives of the Northmen?). He also says that the Fell Folk were in wagons pushing towards the sea, which wouldn't fit the Numenoreans.
The eastern hills can be the Iron Hills
@@bearwoodian8607If you are right it might bee that the Note about Tal-elmar in Rhovanion meat that he was going to visit his mothers Folk ?
@@bearwoodian8607It could be that some disaster happened in the East, say the King (Sauron) attacked a Númenórean colony and there weren't enough ships, so some had to move west through lands. The people of Agar were in the muster of the 'North King', whoever that is, it doesn't sound like the Northmen were their enemy if there was a North King that they served.
I immediately thought of dwarves too. These people were presumably friends either of The Dwarves of The Iron Hills or the obscure dwarves of The East.
That is really cool. I knew nothing about this story so will for sure get it read soon. I've always had an odd love for the general forgotten people that are vibing around Middle Earth just trying to get by day by day while these fantastical elves and powerful empires clash with orc hordes all around them so a story written from their point of view is super cool even if there was clearly some greater plan for Tal-Elmar, would have been cool to see him travel around a bit, slowly learning a bit more about the world which would give us a great view of how elves and men interacted with each other. And I do like the idea of these 'Fell Folk' the thought of Tal-Elmar connecting with this part of him while still trying to care for and support the people of his homeland in some way would be really cool to see.
I think it's a real missed opportunity that the makers of The Rings of Power didn't base their series on Tal-Elmar - or at least, make it into one of the main threads. Here is authentic Tolkien, taking a different and even very modern perspective on the Númenórean colonisation of Middle-earth - that is, seeing it through the eyes of the inhabitants. You really don't have to make up nonsense about Gandalf arriving on a comet and being found by hobbits and the Elves needing mithril (made by a balrog and a Silmaril struck by lightning - or something) to stay alive while everyone is trying to guess which character is really Sauron, when we knew who it was all along. With Tal-Elmar you've got the perfect way of taking the viewer into the Second Age and with all the ramifications of the coming of the Númenóreans from a modern perspective. If I'd been the script editor of RoP, I would have even made the ships of the Númenóreans arriving in the Tal-Elmar story the very first scene of the series.
Fascinating! It's fascnating how much stuff there is that barely gets talked about
I love that you do niche Tolkien content! I’ve read all his main texts (including the three greater tales of the first age) but I’ve yet to read all 12 volumes of history of middle-earth, so I love learning about lesser known tales such as this!
Well, let's face it, the tale of Galadriel and Celeborn was of greater significance. Of course, he never really finished their story either. Today is Tolkien's birthday (he would have been 132) and I wonder if he was still alive and writing how many stories would remain incomplete. But I am eternally grateful for all we did get.
He would have beat Old Took, had he lived.
We'd probably have fifteen Unfinished Tales instead of just the one. But you're right, I'll take unfinished stories over nothing.
Depends on if he started writing for a living, or if it stayed something he did in his free time.
I’ve never heard this story before! Keep the cool niche stuff coming, love your content!
Tal-Elmar's poor mother - 17 sons! No wonder she is apparently dead by the time Tal-Elmar meets the Numenoreans.
I'm no mathematician, but the fact that she didn't get a single daughter either makes her the luckiest or the unluckiest person in existence depending on her perspective.
@@DarthGandalfYT unluckiest.
@@DarthGandalfYT Can't say which, but definitely strange.
Did his father have more than one wife?
@@richardlee653 doubtful, as Tolkien didn't mention it.
this was REALLY interesting, thank you for covering something we haven't seen 12 videos on. :) and for your citations of the artists.
As always, great content!
I’m in the love-the-video-never-heard-of-it group and want to say thanks for sharing! Glad the algorithm blessed me here. Instant sub!
GREAT video, these videos sure do enlighten everyone to stories most of us have not heard. Keep doing them because it encourages people to go buy the books they are found within.
Yes :D I have been waiting for this video for over a year.
I think most anyone who owns history or middle earth had heard of this story already. But the way you added new context helped deepen my understanding of it. Thank you
Fantastic effort. This composition of digging deep through the material and delivering deserves recognition. 2:10 videobombed
My personal theory is that while Sauron was The King, that the Nazgûl were nominally lesser kings of a cardinal direction (plus the empire's centre). So the North King would have been a Ringwraith who led that army under Sauron's imperial banner.
hardcore fan here, was unaware of this story. clicked immediately.
We need more of this
I guess that the "King of the North" title refers not to Sauron, but to the Morgoth. Both his strongholds, Utumno and Angband were located in northern lands. Also, Sauron was known for instigating Morgoth's cults and sacrifices for him, like during the last days of Numenor.
Morgoth was gone by the Second Age.
Thank you, that was really inteesting!
The more arcane the better. Great video.
Wait, I think you mentioned this tale in your History of Rohan video (my favoutite video of yours, watched it multiple times lol)
An interesting tale. These fringe stories are good fun to ponder on
Good idea for a video! Kudos. 🤗
Great content brother
Fascinating! Had no idea. Here's what I think is happening in this story, context wise. (I do not pretend to be a profound Tolkien expert). - The story transpires late-ish in the Second Age, after the Numenorian kings engage in extensive shipbuilding and settling. The split between the King's Men and Faithful has begun, but Sauron has not yet been captured and brought to Numenor. Isengard is not yet built. The exact date is unknown but the available range is pretty narrow. - The protagonists are Hill-men. The live in close to a state of nature, or a war of all against all. Life is full of fear, darkness, and uncertainty. They live in a dark age, an age of decline. Their dark view of the Numenorians is foreshadowing; the temple of Morgoth with the sacrifices is not built yet but the Numenorians are on their way morally to becoming the people who will build it. - The protagonists live in uplands, but not too far from the coast, between the mouth of the Isen and the Andrast cape, maybe near the northern slopes of the mountains that later will bound the future Gondor (not yet). - The Numenorian settlement to the north is Vinyalonde, not that they know. To the south, it doesn't really matter what its name is, but probably something on the south facing coast of what will become Gondor (but is not yet). - The protagonists don't travel far. It's not safe. They don't know their world well. (Then again, Sauron didn't know where the Shire was, did he?) Their near neighbors are Pukel-men, who we find still inhabit this area in the Third Age. The general level of impoverishment likely is a secondary result of the devastating past War of Elves and Sauron fought to the north. Actually, this area never develops. - Tal-Elmar's grandmother was a Northwoman and a migrant captured in an ambush in the Gap of Rohan. Likely they were migrating to escape rule as described below or some sort of disorder elsewhere in a poorly controlled world. They are described as coming from the east because that's where the Gap of Rohan is relative to the protagonists' homes. They probably came down the Anduin and turned westward through the Gap. They might have been seeking Numenorian colonists to live near and feudally serve in exchange for feudal protection. - The protagonists are pretty weak and might have been auxiliaries to a larger ambush who got lucky in the moment with loot. The context of the ambush is unclear but might have been opportunistic rather than historic. - Neither the King's Men nor the Faithful are good colonists from the protagonists' perspective. Both the King's Men and the Faithful have come to conquer and to eliminate whatever is in their way. My guess is that the particular Numenorians in this story are among the Faithful (there are clues as to this) but that does not change their colonialist goal. The Numenorians clearly have a sense of superiority and entitlement: if these are the Faithful imagine the rapacity of the King's Men (this probably is what the father recalls). - The distant and oppressive rulers referenced probably are men kings bearing Sauron's gifted rings (on their way to becoming Nazgul if not already). These kings live to the north, in what in the third age will become Arnor (but is not yet) or in the land damaged by the past War. In the Third Age Arnor's destruction by the Witch King (one of these kings) recalls this time featured in this story (same geography, a sort of restoration). We now see that one of the reason Sauron made these was so that he could project power and control consistently distantly, which in medieval Europe (which Middle Earth resembles) was a perennial problem. - The main character will be adopted by the landed Numenorians, trained and educated, and will go on to have adventures and maybe lead, becoming one of them, as it were, and likely will be able to wreak revenge on his oppressors while saving his immediate family. Hope this helps tie it together. I welcome someone with more knowledge to elaborate.
To my mind there's no such thing as an unpopular Tolkien writing. I enjoyed the video, thanks.
Tolkien missed a great opportunity in doing a sequel to LOTR by focusing the sequel on the previously unknown far east of middle earth far away from Gondor and Eriador. A whole new saga based on the Avari, eastern dwarves, blue wizards and men who lived in the far east after the fall of Sauron. There was so much he could have done with that. Long thought dead Ungoliant could have arisen and been kind of like a new dark force in the far east of middle earth. The possibilities could have been endless.
You are kinda missing something though, remember that the whole story of the world (or rather middle-earth) came as a product of Tolkien's thought experiments with language. There was never much to the lands outside of middle-earth (that's what he called them, the Arda thing was a Christopher editorial choice), and he would had to come up with a whole history, development of language, of religion, of migration and settlement of people, etc for the far east, an undertaking of several decades.
who knows....Disney might take it up....
@@volpeverde6441 Disney? No thank you. Disney is just as woke as Amazon. I don’t want a middle earth with female lesbian trans queer, diverse people of color elves(I probably left out an alphabet or two).
@nole8923 calm down dear.... ( joke ) I wouldn't trust Disney to make a commercial.... without it containing their WOKE FILTH....
“For the less even as for the greater there is some deed that he may accomplish but once only; and in that deed his heart shall rest. It may be that I can unlock my jewels, but never again can I make their like; and if I break them, I shall break my heart, and I shall be slain…” Feanor Tolkien probably believed this wholeheartedly, LOTR was his Magnum Opus.
Tantalizing. It's a shame Tolkien was unable to write full time for so many of his most potentially productive years. Being such a perfectionist, it's possible we'd never have gotten only 'finished' tales, but maybe we would have gotten a few more of them.
Thanks for another look at some of the more obscure stories of Middle-earth.
The Northking might be Morgoth. The 'hearing [Sindarin] in his dreams' was probably from learning to talk with his mother, when 'Dad' wasn't around. After growing up, such talk would be negatively reinforced, leaving memories of uncertain origin.
Morgoth had been defeated by this time.
Noe THIS would have been a cool starting point for a series set on the Second Age
All is always interesting…thank you.
When it comes to Tolkien's more fragmented works, there are Lost Tales and Really Lost Tales.
Personal theory is that the story of Tal-Elmar is an unfinished origin story of the Witch King
Great video!
Cheers never heard of this thanks
This is amazing. I wish we knew more about peoples like them. The story seems to grant a ton of nuance to the "evil humans", which LOTR for example only hinted at (with Samwise's comments about the dead Haradrim soldier). It seems also surprisingly anti-colonial. I really wish Tolkien had expanded on this. Or maybe a capable writer can pick up on this story and expand on it in a non-canon way.
Lord DarthGandolf could you please do a video on the War of Dwarves & Dragons ? I did not see it in your Wars of Middle Earth series
Ah, getting into the niche bits of Tolkien's work? I can dig it. Curious, do you think you might want to cover Farmer Giles of Ham sometime?
Unfortunately, I think Farmer Giles of Ham is outside my area of expertise.
@@DarthGandalfYTFair enough, though even if you never have it on your channel, never let fear of the odd blunderbuss stop you from enjoying it my good sir.
Thank you!
Good video. It makes me wonder if there is a relationship between Tar-Elmer’s people and the ghosts of Dunharrow.
Cal-Elmar reminds me of Tom Bombadil.
what's the game you're using for some of the imagery? It looks PS2-era-ish but then it looks like an early PC MMO like Everquest or even a bit like Elder Scrolls Oblivion with those open fields, but the NPC models and interior shots just are not up to that quality :P Great content btw, I do love a good Tolkien lore channel! Subscribed!
Lord of the Rings Online, which first came out in 2007. I think the landscapes still look great by MMO standards, but character models definitely haven't aged as well.
"Was this short story supposed to become something much greater? We will never know because Tolkien felt like he had to rewrite Galadriel and Celeborn a couple more times" - nice.
Thanks!
Very popular I am guessing, it is so obscure and lots of us like that kind of thing.
The fell-folk of the east could also be northmen
Thanks
It's possible that Tolkien just didn't have any more of the story. Sometimes you get a great idea, you start writing, you're going along, and then... that's it. There's no more. It can happen at the end of an arc or in the middle of a sentence. You try to find more but it's just not there. Writers have these all the time, ideas that just don't pan out. We have no more because there was no more.
The most strange tale of Tolkien's that never existed was Bara-Bagronk, a love poem by an orch to his wife. No such story ever existed. There is never ever any hint whatsoever that orchs married. Or wrote.
I always had in mind that Agar had to be near the location of what would become Osgiliath or even Anorien. We cannot assume the same North and East apply here, as from the perspective from the Men of the West, since this is from the persoective of the natives. The Great Northern King, could simply be a Mannish leader who had under his sway people living in the southern parts of Anduin, but he must have been called northern King because he resides to the north of Agar. While the Fell Folk from the East can be any force that attacked them from eastwards. Therefore it could also be the actual Northmen, or a branch of Northmen. Since they were taller and fairer, they could have been Northmen. Plus the demons of the fiery hills could simply be the Dwarves (of the Iron Hills??) who supplied them with good quality weapons, which is justified since Tolkien says (Of Dwarves and Men) that there was an extensive mutually beneficial friendship between Northmen and Dwarves. At least that's what I believe.
9:11 Perhaps a reference to Morgoth in the very early stages of the story which later became meaningless as the story was changed.
No Morgoth at this time.
Human babies are born able to mimic the rhythm & cadence of our mother-tongue, having hear it in the womb: we begin with the music, and pick up the Form of words and the Voids between as we go. Tal-Elmars ability to speak Sindarin, learned "in long dreams" [12:05], speaks to having a Sindar mother, and a Valar/Maia's memory of how all is sung into existence.
You should reach out to some veteran yters a lot of them will mentor you for free. I’m sure there are some who are slime but I’ve heard a lot of talk about it. You have good content and voice but if you are struggling to make that next step I think there are dudes out there who wouldn’t mind helping. You got great stuff and a new follower in me man.
4:48 If it's in the late Second Age, it certainly does. 7:59 It's said to have been a small harbour, maybe that was still the case and thus men and elves avoided each others ? I love and hate that Tolkien was such a perfectioniste. He made so many great stories that he never finished. 8:55 Why ? I'm not sure to see what connect the two.
Sounds like when the Corded Ware (proto-Indo-Europeans) started moving west into Early European Farmer territory, but with Numenoreans.
2:18 the story is set sometime in the late Second Age 4:44 we don't know when the story is set
If well made, this story would be excellent for a one season TV series or movie trilogy.
This certainly was interesting, 😊no I haven’t heard of this one
yup, never herd this covered before! niche
I wonder what the Orcs did in 4 age and what of the Eastern Orcs? Also there skirmishes and wars in Eriador?
The name "Hazad Longbeard" reminds us of the Dwarves. They were the "Khazad" and "Longbeards" (obviously Tolkien's reworking of the name of the Germanic Longobards' tribe of Late Antiquity) was the name of Thorin's clan in "The Hobbit". So, here we have onother occurence of Tolkien's constant play with names.
So much breadth and depth to Tolkien's legendarium and they went and made rings of power...
From the title alone the first thing to come to my mind was just a taller Elmer Fudd.
If I have not heard of it, then you made it up.
"The New Shadow" is almost Lovecraftanian...
Make a video about Turambar and the Foalókë
Very saddened that we will never know how this story ends 😔
In ancient times maps were *oriented* with the east at the top, south was on the right, north was on the left. The north was associated with darkness, evil, and monsters. This is why the word "sinister", Latin for "left", means evil in English. And anyway this is why Sauron was called the North King. For a map that is "orientated" in this old way, see Thráin's map in the Hobbit.
So the sun starts on top and moves downward? Kind of makes sense. So when did north become top?
@@justachannel8600 Maps rotated 90 degrees once magnetic compasses became common enough.
I have myself wondering that Elmar may be a Northman (Northwoman?). That doesn't explain why Tal Elmar was able to understand Sindarin, though. Perhaps Elmar is supposed to have been Half-elven? It's outlandish, but this story is so strange that I find myself considering it! :D
But were the Numenoreans speaking Sindarin? Or were they speaking heir own language, Adûnaic, that later becomes Westron or the Common Speach? It was related to the languages of the Northmen (especially those that were relatives to the House of Hador).
@@user-yy5xs6xj7r That's a good point - if the Númenoreans were speaking any Elvish language, it would be Quenya.
@@user-yy5xs6xj7r Apparently the Faithful still used Sindarin alongside Adunaic.
@@KaiHung-wv3ul They did, but since there is no reason for Tal-Elmar to know Sindarin it is reasonable to assume that Numenorean language here is Adunaic.
I haven't read _Lord of the Rings_ in almost 20 years. I pulled down my red leather bound edition the other day and started reading. Damn what an engrossing book.
Silmarillian captured me. The most beautiful telling of creation I've ever read. The song of the Ainur
Please cover Roverrandom
Make a video about the new shadow.
Speculation video on the last desert and Were-Worms, i like the Earliest Draft and the links to both the time Tolkien lived and a major myth of the East, Did you know he was 22 when the Qing Dynasty signed over rule to the peoples republic of China!!!
There's another meaning for Fell, which simply means rocky hill.
Could "North King" be Gil-Galad?
This kind of sounds like Tolkien’s answer to those weird, rando Bible stories that don’t seem to fit-like Balaam and his donkey.
The political system of Agar, ruled by a presumably elected master, resembles Lake - town in The Hobbit. And Mogru seems like an even more unpleasant version of the earlier character.
Wouldn’t the “North King” be the “Witch-King of Angmar,” the First of the Nine, “Lord of the Nazgul”?
didn't exist yet, the title or angmar
I think that the major point I see to this interesting story, is that it is an elaboration of Faramir's question in TTT. Faramir: The enemy? His sense of duty was no less than yours, I deem. You wonder what his name is, where he comes from, and if he really was evil at heart. What lies or threats led him on this long march from home, or he would not rather have stayed there... in peace? War will make corpses of us all. The story of Tal-Elmar is a window into the life of someone of whom that could have been said by the POV of the side that we are on. Yes, Tal-Elmar is 2nd Age, not 3rd Age, but Tolkien is personally aware - from his own life - of the fact that the people we label as 'enemy' may good people caught up in something so much larger than themselves that their individuality is subsumed by the commander's goal.
Part of the Numenor story seems like Tolkiens oblique commentary on British imperialism.
A truly fascinating story - seems like there was a lot more nuance than the Lord of the RIngs, with even the Faithful getting a bit of criticism for their lack of regard for the rights of the Men of Middle Earth to their own land. Seems like Tolkien had an interesting idea with this one, too bad he never finished it.
Tall and Blonde people coming from the East? Sounds like the ancestors of the Rohirrim to me...
Interesting theory! Especially with their discription of using wagons and chariots, which historically eventually evolved into cavalry.
@@KaiHung-wv3ul thanks. 😀 I just figured it was more likely Northmen/Middlemen than lost Numenorians, coming from that direction - the Numenorians were seafarers and had no reason to be over there really yet, and they came from the south at the end of the story and were *not* linked to the others by the locals so they couldn't have looked too similar. - The Rohirrim are the only major people who are famed for blonde hair, and their ancestors had to come from somewhere, though these could maybe also have been the ancestors of the Northmen of Rhovanion that Eldacar's mother came from IF they too were blonde, but I can't find a physical description anywhere of them... EDIT: apparently the Rohirrim claimed kinship with Gondor THROUGH these people, so I guess they are related, so ancestors of one would be ancestors of both groups.
Heeeyyyy a fellow LOTRO player!
I never heard of it . I liked it ( story)
Darth Gandalf constantly changes the lotr lore so he can come up with interesting new videos that we haven’t heard before, prove me wrong
Easy, there already is a video on Tal-Elmar, almost a year old - by Dork Lords, I highly recommend it
Wouldn't the North King be the Witch King of Angmar, but not yet king of Angmar, of course? He was the cheif of the Nazgul who might easily have been at large if we assume the story happena after S. A. 2251
Damn this would make a great series on HBO after house of the dragon finishes up. If the first act works then they could take a shot at creating those unfinished sequels to this characters story. I wouldn't trust Amazon but HBO or Netflix could make it happen.
The New Shadow?
I didn't know
I'm feeling a little "Jacob and his 12 sons" vibe here with Tal-Elmar being the Joseph stand-in. I'm thinking Tal-Elmar would be enslaved/taken into service by the Numenoreans thanks to his sudden ability to know their language and the "long dreams" similar to Joseph's ability to see visions of the future. Hell aren't Numenoreans supposed to be inspired by ancient Egyptians too? Who knows? Maybe Tal-Elmar successfully averts disaster for the Numenoreans with his long dreams and becomes successful and honored in Numenor and at the end after Agar's downfall he sees his elderly father and brothers and takes them into Numenor. Consequently the Jewish descendants in that story would later flee during Exodus and establish the Kingdom of Israel. I think Tolkien abandoned that story since it was too on-the-nose. Then again I might just be reaching.😅
It's an interesting thought.
Please don't mention Jews into beautiful Tolkien's lore. They immediately would want money from whatever whoever bc they only pretend to be victims all the time. They are greedy af.
Why did Gondor beat the Haradrim easy but struggled against the Easterlings ?
Same reason Rome could conquer Egypt but not Parthia perhaps, and why Napoleon failed in Russia. The "East" just keeps going.
The Blue Wizards.
potentially