Installing Three Phase Power In A Shop
Many times the shop tools that use 3 phase power are next level equipment. It took me two years
to lay all the ground work for this electrical upgrade. Thanks once again Kevin for making
time for me. Here's the saw before it was unpacked: • EC's Shop Remodel
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I will never forget Mr. Tate, my shop teacher in 7th grade, telling us: "This is the table saw. The table saw can throw a full sheet of plywood the length of the shop, and it doesn't care how many heads are in the way."
And as those heads fly they can break bones.
Hahaha...sounds like mine...Mr Rhodenizer wouldn't let the caretaker change the ceiling tiles with holes bcuz it was part of the demonstration! He'd step to the side and let a piece of wood fly up into the ceiling...he had our attention...rip Mr Rhodenizer...I love woodworking bcuz of your teaching
🎉 definitely I agree🎉 that is the kind of machine we used to use in school also where it almost sound like a two-stroke with a power band engine it would rim and then rim higher🎉.. kind of like a jet engine🎉..JJ... Jonjon...😊😊
I like to say that we think the tablesaw's job it to cut wood for us but the table saw resents it and will throw it back at us any chance we give it...come to think of it kind of like a strict Sensei or boxing coach shows you your weakness with a quick connect to your head. BE alert especially when cutting multiples. Do not say at the last "Ah, last one.". Your mindset changes and goes onto the next task but I have learned to say at the last one; one more after this, keeps me focused on the task at hand so I can keep my hand.
Well my shop teacher told us that if we broke a bandsaw blade, it would shoot across the room and get stuck in the cinder block. In reality, from experience, once the blade breaks it comes to an immediate halt and you don't even know you broke a blade until you open the cover.
That burke bar does everything. Need to move a 4 ton saw? Burke Bar. Need to remove shingles from a roof? Burke bar. Cat is about to hack up a hairball on the floor? Burke bar.
Really 4 tons? Or are you exaggerating? That would be a BEAST!
Hairball😂
I feel like Kevin does kick flips in his driveway when he gets home from work. Smart guy to have around for sure!
🤙
Hell yeah
14:41 you need AvE's sticker that reads "DANGER - Not only will this kill you, it will hurt the whole time you're dying"
14:36 nobody told us we were going to the gun show!!
This video had me doing a Google deep dive into phase rotation, delta/wye configurations, eddy currents, etc...and damn I have a new found respect for electricians and electrical engineers.
All Greek to me 🤷♂
You know what's funny to me, I've been around electricians my whole life. Done electrical myself some. I constantly think: "Well if HE can figure out or, I sure as heck can." And then I realize that electrical isn't my thing. The same look of astonishment that I give my electrician when he wired my whole house and it worked was the exact same look he gave me when his house flooded and I had to redo the drywall and plumbing. Things that he never had a clue or interest in. We both cover each other and it works. ❤
@@trentjensen96I I just took the master electricians contractors test in Ohio about 6 months ago. I’ll tell ya what it was super hard 110 questions but I passed. Been doing electrical work for 25 years and you never stop learning!!
I would really think about installing a splitter on the saw. That thing is terrifying, but I'm glad you're finally getting to use it.
What's a splitter? Same as a riving knife?
@@MattsAwesomeStuff Similar. A splitter is fixed whereas a riving knife raises and lowers with the blade. So you couldn't, for example make a partial cut with a splitter installed.
Wouldn't you be able to make that partial cut as long as you changed out a taller splitter with one that was short enough to 'duck' below the height of the blade height in question?@@andrewalexander9492
i agree
@@MattsAwesomeStuff essentially, yeah. Just can't go up and down since it will be a retro-fit.
God bless electricians⚡
Dear Lord - Scott!! Push stick brother!!
Those silver capacitors are technically the run Capacitors The black capacitors are the Start capacitors . Nice install sir
in my high school wood shop class the teacher was pushing a piece of wood threw the table saw demonstrating how to use a push stick. and a sliver of wood decided to let go and came back at him. it went threw the web of skin between his thumb and pointer. straight threw. he calmly finished his cut. turned off the saw. held his hand finishing his "speech" and walked to the nurse. always had respect for him for that.
I do this kind of work all the time, and we use a VFD (as Kevin mentioned) to convert from single to 3 phase right at the unit itself, and as a bonus you have infinitely variable speed control if you want it. AutomationDirect sells them cheap, less than even an equivalent phase converter and you don't have the moving parts or the parasitic losses either!
Will lowering the speed control increase heat in motors at all?
@@slaveofjesus3878 The voltage and load stays constant, the vfd just changes the ac frequency (hz). Running a fan cooled motor slower will decrease the cooling though, so at really low speeds it can cause overheating (like 20hz or less which is 1/3 the regular speed). If someone needed to run a motor at 1/3 it's speed for long duration, they be looking at slowing the final output mechanically (different gearing / belt arrangement etc.) But if for some reason you have to you can install a separate fan too. It's not often that you want to drastically change speed for non-production work, you might fine tune the speed a bit, but the main purpose of the vfd is to give you that flexibility to run 3 phase loads on single phase. They're also useful for testing and prototyping or situations where the speed is tied to some other input (job being run, temp, load etc.)
@@slaveofjesus3878to add to what @synpapticburn said, it is recommended to use an "inverter duty" motor. Inverter duty motors are insulated for those slower speeds. Also keep in mind a VFD does not output a sine wave like the three phase electricity that comes from the power plant. The VFD works by converting line AC voltage into DC volts. This "bus voltage" then goes through a series of devices called insulated gate bipolar transistors or IGBTs. Essentially they are electronic components designed to switch large voltages on and off very quickly. What they will do is on each phase, they'll turn on and off very fast, creating pulses of DC voltage on the output terminals. These pulses are designed to mimic AC voltage. They'll pulse very short durations when the sine wave is closer to zero, and then pulse longer and longer at the peak. Then another IGBT will open and do that same pulsing with a reverse polarity. This is usually good enough for "Dumb" electrical components like motors and transformers and will respond as if they were being fed true AC power. The VFD also allows for control of the IGBT pulsing so that you can run the motor at different frequencies. The trade off to this is that VFDs tend to put out a lot of radio frequency interference and sensitive electronics can actually be damaged or crippled by it. But you can sine wave filters, which are essentially specially built three phase isolation transformers, to convert that "chopped up" DC pulse signal to a relatively clean AC sine wave. Most don't though, since they aren't connecting sensitive electronics to it anyway. You don't need to do that if all you're doing is running your Bridgeport or your lathe with it.
Beside the power, the best part of that saw is the fence. Super fine adjustment and always square. I used a saw just like it in a production pattern shop, cutting 4" lumber like butter.
Thank you for showing us! Stay safe!
Because of the high cost of refilling fire extinguishers, I always hire out electrical work.
Who knew 3-phase conversion could be so interesting! Great video.
That saw needs the words "I'm not playing around" put on it somewhere in plain view to remind anyone around it and using it of its potential. 😉
Thanks for all the awesome content and great videos!!
🎉 thank you for the video🎉 that saw there "will help you lose your fingers real fast"🎉....JJ.. Jonjon...😊😊
That saw sounds awesome
Your going to Love using that saw. Good prewar iron
Hell of a cut on that 4x8. I'm jealous of the power you have at your disposal. Thumbs up from VA.
that's a serious table saw!!
KEEP UP THE GOOD WORK
You may want to have an e-stop cable placed around the saw as an additional safety measure.
Scott you are a gem....
Thanks for sharing. I had no idea of this before, I have learned something of value today. Blessings to you.
That saw is a beast !
That is very interesting about the power. I've often wondered about three phase in the event I get another power hammer. That table saw sounds like it has massive power! Thanks for the video.
I have been waiting for the day you showed more on the saw great video
Thank you for making my day better 🙂
Wow, what a beautiful piece of equipment. Don't know what you have planned, but it's just awesome
That is an awesome saw. I'm glad you have the experience to be careful.
Another great video, learned a lot,thanks 😊
We had the exact same saw in our high school wood shop. That was a great shop with a 18" joiner and 36" planner as well.
I have been waiting for this video for a long time. My brother is the guy you dealt with for the saw, and I couldn't wait to see it in action.
Just got a new three phase table saw myself. Runs like a dream. 🖖🏻
A sawmill veteran needs a substitute sawmill. You have it. You and Dave at Engle's couch shop make me envious. Enjoy and thanks.
Nice install 👍
Now that is a beastly machine
Damn! You've got some guns on you, Old Man! Your shop is something out of my wildest dreams! Well done! You've earned it! Also, you give credit where credit is due. I love your videos. You show humility and are grateful for the help and instruction you get. Not a lot of contractors out there that will admit to those areas that they needed help in. Thanks for another great video!
wow that machine is powerful , Nice!!! thank you for all the videos i be ready for more and more videos .
You brought back a memory from my misspent youth. "One more time I have to retreat to the standard position that 'too much is always enough'" brought to mind a phrase some fellow named Bill wrote a while back. "Once more unto the breach, dear friends, once more". Thank you for continuing to put out great videos!
Putting a rotary phase converter in my shop was one of the best things I ever did. Opens up the variety and quality of machines you can buy immensely. Looking around my shop these days and I only have 1 or 2 tools left that are single phase. The VFD's are good but it can be a lot to spend the money on a new vfd every time you buy a new machine. Awesome Install!
Awesome machine! Use it in good health!
👍🏻👍🏻👍🏻👍🏻👍🏻👍🏻👍🏻 I put a contactor on mine before the phase converter/motor feed and installed a key fob relay in the control circuit so I can fire it up from anywhere in the shop, so it doesn't run all the time.
Kevin can definitely do a kick flip
🤙
a saw that can cut just about anything the power are insane
You are truly crazy, you need a big push stick or something. I've got some really old 360 volt 3 phase industrial equipment from germany that my dad brought over. Planer, jointer and shaper. He used it all in the late 80s and 90s to build his home from hus own lumber. We will be using it again later this year with generator driven by a tractor. I will look into a setup like yours sometime in the future. I'm in awe.
The sound of that saw turning on, brought back memories for me, too. A three phase tablesaw was in a tool shop that I worked at as a college student often I was asked to make plywood shipping crates. One time I was cutting a sheet of plywood and I don’t remember exactly what happened but there was some kickback and plywood shards flying. I had a piece stuck beneath my chin that I had to pull out with my fingers. Unbeknownst to me, 30 years later I was getting an x-ray, and there was something metallic in that same location. When the x-ray technician zoomed in on the image, the shape of the metal was very similar to what a carbide tooth would look like. Now I have to decide whether to take it out or leave it in.
Now that's an awesome table-saw.
What a man! Took that supersonic knot to the tender part of the arm and didn’t freak out, didn’t overreact. Just stayed cool and finished the job because he has the experience to know that a freak out would endanger them both.
Engels Coach Shop has the same saw, two blades, and serious power. I really liked the video of you visiting Dave, and Buckin Billy.
Clough42 has a great video on explaining the nitty-gritty details of how a rotary phase converter works. It's very technical though and might be hard to follow for some.
kzhead.info/sun/oLmRfNyDlqx_ZWw/bejne.htmlfeature=shared
This is awesome, I was lamenting not having three phase power for an electric powered circular sawmill!
Thankyou 👍
Whoa! Thank God! That coulda been REALLY bad. I'm glad you have your saw up and running.
That table saw is SCARY !
Scott’s got quite the guns after all those years in construction!
dual 16" blades.... that saw is awesome.
Beautiful saw! Would highly recommend installing a riving knife to reduce the probability of a kickback.
It may be difficult to mount a riving knife, maybe impractically difficult. Adding a splitter may be easier, if not quite as versatile and safe.
Great video
Just sharing what I learned from my monster saw. Not quite as monster as yours. 14” 5hp. Old Delta/Milwaukee from the 40’s. Came from an organ factory. When I first turned it on and ran wood without the guard, I noticed shorter, smaller pieces wanting to lift the back end of the piece. It took a while to click but my guard is made of magnesium and the splitter has anti kickback spurs inside the guard. So I installed it, dialed it in. The weight of the guard holds the work piece down. Make an assortment of push sticks and feather boards. Hopefully it came with the guard. Happy sawing
Wow. I worked in a cabinet shop that had 3 phase and when the wood bound up on the blade it started the sawdust to smoking. Your final words, on this video are golden advice.
I love this. I love your content.
Having friends with skills can really help a fellow out, not that money wouldn't fix the issue, but good friends are golden. Be cautious with the saw, we want to see you with all your digits and limbs in the next video!!
Loved the video. Understood a bit of it. Will stick with my Dewalt contractor saw on the mobile stand for now! Thanks
Burke bar for the win!
thats going to be a nice saw, wow.
That saw is terrifying. Please make up some push sticks and push blocks.
I remember testing on site table saws powered with three phase motors. When activated the experience was exciting and terrifying at the same time. I have total respect for this type of power.
What does that mean please? I've never heard the term 3 phase
@@fdort3971 Three-phase power is a three-wire ac power circuit with each phase ac signal 120 electrical degrees apart.
On household power you have 2 hot leads (black and red) which are 230v from black to red and 120v hot to neutral. This is single phase. On 3 phase you have 3 hot wires (example red, black, orange) and again 230v hot to hot and 120v hot to neutral. First phase is black to red, second phase is black to orange and third phase is red to orange. This is much more efficient than single phase. In fact all brushless battery tools are DC converted to 3 phase AC.
@@l.george7517 thanks!
I installed a bunch of VFD’s for 250 hp 3 phase 480 volt motors, they are very interesting how they work.
Scott - Watch that 4x8 cut again and imagine it's one of your grandkids doing it... you'll byoass the old carpenter confidence and the hackles should go up. Push sticks, add a splitter, and please never reach that close to the pain circle.
Very interesting.
Damn that roar of that saw was impressive
It breathes again!
Good episode
I can see two accessories you need to build or make, 1- A push stick (sooner the better) 2-An out feed table. They’ll both make a good video! Nice saw, and that’s a really good friend to have. You seem to have a lot of high quality friends, so do they.
That saw makes me warm and fuzzy inside. :)
Nobody mentioned it but for future hook-ups be sure the phase converter generated leg isn't being used to energize the motor starter contactor coil. You want utility provided power to go to the starter coil. Otherwise, your motor starter may not work.
Adam Savage has a healthy attitude towards table saws - constantly terrified of them. It's the only way to respect them enough to avoid serious injury
"Your friends magnify your capacity..." Amen For good or bad.
Nice
That saw is big enough to cut your finger off at the shoulder. We only have single phase in the area of our shops. My son bought a 3 phase mill and a used 3 phase rotary converter. There was a wiring diagram on the converter that showed how to wire it up. Luckily we live in an area that no building, plumbing, or electrical inspector will dare tread.
Scott, it is worth pointing out that even a saw stop won't prevent a kickback; it just makes it less likely you'll have a serious cut from the blade. The force of an ejected workpiece can still hurt you just the same.
Exactly! They can still spit out material under a guard, too. I don't know if it's possible to avoid all risk.
"I don't intend to have to run power under this floor again anytime soon". You just HAD to say that, didn't you, Scott? LOL
It's been a long time I haven't seen your channel.. Resubscribed ❤
Please pleae please use a push stick and never put your fingers past the saw blade! We love you too much to see you get hurt! Great video, cant wait to see your workshop evolve.
What your roto phase is doing is converting a single phase AC input into a three phase AC output. Think about single phase alternating current as a single sine wave on a chart. A sine wave alternates between positive and negative values, therefore youll have a dip in power when the wave goes below its highest point (its hardly noticeable because the wave is operating at 60Hz, or 60 cycles a second). Now, your roto phase is basically just a circle divided into 3 sections, each at 120 degrees. These three sections are coils of copper that are spun around a magnet. Each of the coils generate a sine wave of their own. With these sine waves, the high point of one matches up with the low point of the last, so this gives a much higher power output to your equipment. A VFD is needed because not everything is perfect, and one leg/phase could get more power than another causing sensitive equipment to get kinda squirrely. Hopefully that clears things up a little bit. Im an apprentice electrician and im trying to make sense of it all as well lol
Hey Scott - Curious if this passed the electrical inspection? It is hard to tell from the video but that does look like Type SO coming out of the unit as described in t.400.4 ... under 400.12 under uses not permitted is, "Where run through holes in walls, structural ceilings, drop ceilings, or floors"....
Scott, I really appreciate your videos and it will be nice to have you around as long as possible. Next time, please use the pushing stick to go between the blade and the fence.
VFD's convert AC power to DC power and then pulse the power out to create a sinewave that mimics AC power. This allows you to adjust the speed or Hz of the output power. They can also be used to input single phase 240v AC power and output 3 phase power.
The output of a VFD is not a sine wave.
I still have no idea what's going on there. Lol I used to run a RC car club and someone donated an old air compressor for us to use. The only problem was it was a giant three phase compressor. Luckily we had a guy that was super smart with anything electrical. He took an old motor of some sort and used it to spin another motor that created the third phase. So when you wanted the air compressor on you had to wrap a rope around a pulley on the first motor and pull to get it started, then flip the switch for the compressor. There were no capacitors or anything. I still don't understand it even though I've learned a lot more about electrical systems since then.
Okay, now I'm intrigued. Please show us Cy Swan's 3-phase rotary converter.
Interesting. I tried to educate myself on commercial 3-phase supply when planning for a new mass spectrometer in the lab. As I understood things, power delivery in that case is via three 120V legs that are 120 degrees out of phase with each other, yielding a voltage potential of 208V. I assume the 240V leg discussed here is some sort of compromise required when deriving three phase power from single phase distribution. Now I need to read up on this too. That Oliver T.S. is definitely a beast; easily capable of turning that 4"x8" into a missile. A couple decades ago I was using a 12" Oliver jointer on a 2"x12" hunk of redwood when the cutter knocked a knot loose. I was already feeling less than 100% so the noise of that knot busting loose and banging around under the board scared the bejeezus out of me. But it taught me the important lesson to only operate big power tools when my mind and body are 100% ready for the task at hand.
"240" and 208 can both be a part of 3 phase. "neutral" is just 240v tapped midway on the transformer windings to halve the voltage. For single phase 230 for example you have two conductors with between 220 and 250 volts between them (it can vary). For 3 phase you have 3 conductors, and yes the pulses are out of phase with each other. So you always have that 230ish volts between any two of the three wires. But you can also have a "high leg" which will give you 208v relative to ground. So on a 3 phase breaker, you can connect a regular single phase load to the top and bottom of the 3 breakers and get 230ish volts to run regular equipment. This is all better learned visually though, there are some great entry level brief vids on youtube about all this, it's interesting. Another fun thing is that 3 phase motors can reverse direction. If you hook it up and it spins the wrong way, you can reverse any two wires and it will turn the other way. 120v 3 phase with 208 isn't something I see a lot, but it's apparently used more in schools and apartments etc. In an industrial environment I see 230 v 3 phase or 480v 3 phase most of the time.
Holly cow, double the power of mine, i think i'm in love with this machine (even if i feel scare about it 's power) 😮
Any table saw can cut your hand off...do not be fooled by those little jobsite saws. kzhead.info/sun/i8eAZ5WMbHipaYU/bejne.html
Here in Sweden it's normal to have 3-phase, 25A 400V to the property.
Scott taking an opportunity to show off the guns at the end :) I call planned accident!
Home made rotor phase converter voltage can be equalized across all three legs using capacitors. So no worries for running machines.
I’m thankful you are wise enough to hire a licensed, insured and qualified electrician to connect your new equipment. The possibility of electrocution, fire, dangerous equipment failure, and the destruction of costly equipment isn’t worth the risk. Also having the foresight to take into consideration future growth is important. Like most everyone who’s spent any time in a shop, I’ve seen some ugly, quick and dirty installs, made by a “handyman special” “fly by night” gurus that were a tragedy waiting to happen.