The Subtropical Question - More on Oceanic and Humid Subtropical Climates
New York is Subtropical. Really? According to the Koppen Climate Classification, it has the same Humid Subtropical Climate as New Orleans in the Deep South. Sounds crazy, doesn't it? And what about Bogota, Colombia having the same climate as London. That can't be right, surely. But Koppen put them both in the same Oceanic Climate Zone. In this video I break apart these zones into different sub-types based upon winter temperatures.
🕐CHAPTERS🕖
👉0:00 Introduction and Titles
👉1:50 Koppen Cfa and Cfb Definition
👉3:02 South-East USA, NYC vs New Orleans
👉4:45 Trewartha Climate Classification
👉6:14 A Solution to the Cfa Problem
👉7:02 Cool vs Mild Winters for Cfa Globally
👉8:52 Oceanic Cool vs Mild Winter
👉10:50 Subtropical Highland Climate
👉11:46 Summary and Outro
When Vladimir Koppen developed his famous climate classification, 90% of the Earth was covered well. But problems lie in the Humid Subtropical (Cfa) Climate, where many feel that it is too broad a definition, with cities like New York and New Orleans being in the same climate zone.
I have identified with precision the problem with this climate zone - it is the difference in winter temperatures. New York has cool winters while New Orleans is mild during the colder season. In an original piece of research, I have split the Cfa zone globally into areas of cool and mild winters, and present these in a detailed map.
A similar problem occurs in the Oceanic (Cfb) climate zone, where London and Paris, with their chilly winters, are classified in the same zone as Melbourne and Auckland with their mild winters, and even worse, with Subtropical Highland cities like Bogota and Quito, which experience no winter. Again, here, I break down the Oceanic climate zone into cool and mild winters, and additionally clarifying the difference between these and the Subtropical Highland climate.
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Do you live in the Humid Subtropical or Oceanic zone, but have experienced the "other kind" of that zone (mild winters or cool winters)? If so, share your experiences here. For instance, I for one spent time as a kid growing up in Melbourne, which has mild winters, and now in the UK with cool winters, and I can definitely confirm it was a different feeling in winter. I don't think it's ever snowed in Melbourne!
Trewartha labeling the northern parts of the south as "Oceanic", is well rather dumb. If anything, its humid continental (with subtropical features).
Well I’m not sure. Belgrade has both warmer winters (still a cool winter with average max temps of 6 degrees and 0 degrees average lows in January) and hotter summers (well kinda, it’s similar) than NYC but I don’t see it on your map as humid subtropical
@@hi-gj2qi I live in South-Eastern Bulgaria, it has small pockets of Humid Subtropical which are hard to see on world map, like Serbia. Im guessing Belgrade would probably have cold summer, anything below 0 is continental.
@@shrek8781 You mean cold winter ? Well actually it’s a cool winter with a mean temp around 3 degrees during the coldest month of January. It’s definitely warmer than Sofia but it’s cooler than cities like Varna etc...
@@shrek8781 It doesn’t go below zero in Belgrade as often as Sarajevo, Ljubljana, Skopje, Sofia or Zagreb. Mostly because there’s a high concentration of concrete and everything which prevents snow to stay on the ground for too long. This winter the coldest we got was -7, last winter was at -4, and in 2019 at -8. 2017 and 2012 were the coldest recent winters reaching -15/16 during the night at some point.
For some odd reason, Koppen decided to put a sharp distinction between the C and D classes when there is actually a more smoother transition between them when it comes to winter temperatures. That's why you have cities like New York and Copenhagen basically skirting the line between C and D.
The reason it's gradual is because of the great plains in both Russia and the USA. The lack of mountains offers no barriers. Compare with Mediterranean climates which usually occur around mountainous coasts, and so provide a sharp cutoff.
Thank you for pointing this out! Now people can understand how NYC and Orlando have different climates.
This video is an instant classic for humid subtropical appreciators everywhere
Oh wow! This is actually something that's bothered me about the Koppen system. I live in the south-eastern US, and this immediately stood out to me as a problem with it. I have talked about this extensively with my one friend that's enough of a geography nerd to care about this. We thought about dividing the cfa by whether a location averages more than 1 cm of snow a year.
To be honest, snowfall doesn't really interfere with climate classification. Take Antarctica as an example. Humid Subtropical should have a Cold Winter variant. Where wintertime temperatures can rival that of Humid Continental. This is primarily true for the Long Island Sound coastlines and south east Massachusetts.
The C climate type should be divided into twp types: Those with average winter temperature below 10 and those with average winter temperature of at least 10 degrees celsius. Places with average winter temperatures below 10 degrees are no longer subtropical in terms of climate and vegetation.
@@peterjonesdelacruz agreed. Hardy Subtropical plants can survive in New York City. (Hamden Connecticut has some Subtropical Trees as well) Most Subtropical vegetation becomes dominant over temperate vegetation around the Delmarva area.
This piece perfectly captured the weakness of Cfa classification. The division into Cfa-mild winter and Cfa-cool winter is brilliant. Probably applied very well until the very recent past. Although I have to say that based on the last 36 months, NYC today is indeed more like New Orleans than the northeast of the mid 20th century. We have had one real winter storm in 3 years, multiple heat waves each year, and summer now bascially is May - early Oct. There were many more 60F days this past winter than 30F days, every single day (yes, not a typo) in Jan, temp was above the 1990-2020 mean, there was less than one inch of snow for most of NYC for the entire season. And as of today, April 13 / 2023, it literally hit 90 degrees on my thermoeter on the balcony this afternoon. I have been in the metro most of my life, and I have never seen anything close to this. I think for everyone in NYC, even those that were climate change doubters, are becoming believers now.
Thanks! Glad you liked the analysis! It was by far the most controversial subject in the original climate series. Can we have some your hot spring weather? We haven't had a truly warm day yet here in England this year, which is most unusual by mid-April!
Despite us hitting 90 so early, it's not happening again... (in fact a cooler than average summer is predicted) But that doesn't mean climate change isn't happening. January was so warm (mean for that was about 43f, normal mean is 33f), that you can't doubt global warming.
This gap in winter temperatures could also be accounted for in Mediterranean climates as well
Less so in the Csa variant, which almost always has mild winters. Csb, yes.
Here is my take on answering that: Csa: The Humid Subtropical Climate extends from 45 degrees to 20 degrees (latitude), the Mediterranean goes from 45 to 30 degrees, before it is cut out by the arid deserts and steppes on the west coast. The most equator-ward tips of Mediterranean I can think of are Jerusalem and Santiago, Chile, both have coldest month of 8-9 degrees Celsius, (less than 10) so I think a subdivision would be a bit unnecessary. Csb: I cant think of place which has winters over 10 degrees celsius. So answer is same I guess? Unless there is a different isotherm to separate winters. Csc: Why even bother? I mean, how common are these?
I have researched the climate of places in California, and I do live in California at this point now. Los Angeles actually has a winter day-night average of 14*C, well above the 10*C isotherm, but the state capital of Sacramento, which I live close to, has a winter day-night average of 8*C, which does mean frosts aren't uncommon there. The even colder city of Medford in Southern Oregon, which is still Csa climate, has a winter day-night average of 4*C, which is as cold as Virginia or Tennessee.
@@shrek8781 San Francisco is csb with winters above 10c
There’s a good portion of the CSA climate that has cool winters
I’ve asked myself this question countless times! You are a saint, sir. Thank you. It’s so encouraging to see others that are also passionate about the Earth’s dynamic climate
You're welcome. And I'm honestly surprised at the rather overwhelming number of comments this video has attracted so quickly. It seems this issue was really driving a lot of you crazy!
@@Geodiode The biggest issue is the connotation of the term "sub-tropical". Everyone can agree with New York City being temperate along with most of the eastern US. The moment the term subtropical is used however, visions of swamps and palmettos appear and the connection is lost. In light of that can you think of a short hand name for this Cool CFA variant? _Perhaps... _*_Humid Sub-Continental?_* Cold Continental climates can achieve the designation of "sub-arctic" for comparison. Btw, I am a big fan of your climate series and appreciate the time you spent addressing this. This really was in fact driving myself and many others crazy haha.
The introduction is very funny because I first watched your channel while living in New York in the summer and that was the definition of humid subtropical
I've not personally experienced a NYC summer, but I've seen references to it in The Sopranos and Mad Men (the latter: "Why are you still in the city in August? Everyone leaves because it's so unbearable!"
I think cities such as Dc, Nyc should be considered “warm temperate” while cities such as New Orleans and Savanah Ga should be actually “subtropical”
"Subtropical" IS THE WARM SIDE of the temperate climates.
@@centrismo9110yeah but it’s still misleading to call them “subtropical”
Well the Subtropical latitudes stretches from the Tropic of Cancer to about 35° North which cuts the cfa zone of the Eastern United States in half which correlates mostly with how he split the cool winter/mild winter zones at 7:11
@@TheXenoBrosMCwell it depends on how you define ‘subtropical’
@@PremierCCGuyMMXVI most people have an idea of what "tropical" is, so in my mind "subtropical" is a milder version of that, with hot/humid summers and somewhat cool but not cold winters. also the line at 7:11 is a decent bit south of 35N lol, that would put the line around charlotte, nc
Coldest month mean above 10°C threshold looks good. I’ve thinking about redefining subtropical and your video came up in perfect time! Borrowing Trewartha’s C(8 months above 10°C) and D(4~7 months above 10°C) zone, also add a third letter to distinguish the summer temperatures same as the Koppen’s. In this system, Seattle fits under “Dob” contrast to Kentucky’s “Doa”. Then coldest month must have above 6°C to prevent climates like Mokpo and Ulleung-do of South Korea get included in the group because their winters are kinda chilly to call it subtropical. 6°C threshold inspired from John F. Griffiths’ set of subtropical. So, my definition of subtropical would require: 1. 8 months above 10°C 2. Coldest month above 6°C 3. Warmest month above 22°C Here are example of cities with the modified climate types. Cfa(Humid Subtropical): Atlanta, Kagoshima Cfb(Mild-winter Oceanic): Melbourne, Hobart, Auckland, Scilly(almost) Doa(Humid Temperate): New York, Milano Dob(Oceanic): London, Paris, Seattle Dca(Hot-summer Humid Continental): Chicago(exactly same as Koppen’s Dfa/Dwa/Dsa) Dcb(Warm-summer Humid Continental): Helsinki(exactly same as Koppen’s Dfb/Dwb/Dsb)
Fourth letter for precipitation?
Some good ideas there, but see my closing comment in the video about complexity vs. ability to understand by many.
I love physical geography and climate and you’re one of the few dedicated on those aspects, keep doing what you’re doing!
Many thanks!
You are underrated! Thank you KZhead for recommending this to me, you just earned a brand new subscriber
Welcome aboard!
Awesome content as always my dude
The Indian version is very unique in it self Very extreme temperatures in Winter and Summer, As summarised Late June- Late September Rainy Monsoon, Early October to Late November as post-monsoon or you could 'say autumn' as the temperature cools towards end of November, Early December- Late February Winter, Late February- Early April as Pre Monsoon or 'Spring' Early April to Late June Hot Summer (with notable exception is that April and May have Dry Heat, While June has Humid Heat similar to of other Humid Subtropical Cfa climate) and the cycle then repeats itself
So does the cwa type of subtropical have warmer winters than cfa?
@@introtwerp you could say, however on many occasions the areas with cwa climate might have cooler temperatures than cfa regions durning winter
@@mayankkumar4161 interesting why is that? Cwa has dry winter usually so less chance of hail and frost
@@introtwerp frost actually does happen in cwa regions however it's usually uncommon, hail is usually observed either in rainy season or between the March-May Period they mainly occur in convective thunderstorms, the eastern part of the cwa region in India and Bangladesh can even experience tornados! however they're uncommon too I think, the deadliest tornado in fact was in Bangladesh
@@introtwerp Most of the time yes, but it depends. Cwa tends to have sunnier, drier winters than cfa and cwa climates bordering a tropical climate (Am, Aw/As) definitely have warmer winters during winter than cfa. Cwa tends to separate cfa from tropical savanna climate the same way a BSh climate separates a BWh from a tropical savannah climate as well. ******Exception: In Southeast China, there is cwa climate just north of the cfa climate, as well as cwa just south of cfa along the coast. In northern India, the cwa climate during winter is heavily influenced by cold fronts blowing over the Himalayas. In Northeastern U.S., cfa with cold, snowy winters exist but that borders a continental climate.
I grew up just a bit north of the border between humid continental and humid subtropical, and then went to college a few hundred kilometers south in the humid subtropical zone. There really wasn’t much of a difference, climate and vegetation wise, other than slightly hotter summers and a bit less snow in the winter. It makes sense that the distinction must be made somewhere, even though my hometown is a lot more similar to where I went to college than Florida. But if we kept on making these distinctions then the climate map would get so much more complicated. The eastern US has such a gradual shift between climates to where you really need to have a trained eye to determine if, for example, a picture of a forest was taken in the Midwest or the south. If you play Geoguessr then you’d know just how annoying it is to get a round in the eastern US. I now live in the Pacific Northwest, where I can drive from a rainforest to a desert in an hour and the differences between climates are a lot more obvious!
Yes, wherever you have a plain, you'll get very gradual changes in climate, so the line drawn on a map is purely arbitrary. In mountainous regions, the cutoffs can be very sharp.
Now take a picture of the forests in coastal south carolina, Georgia, Louisiana or anywhere in Florida and you will see the differences, wild Palms, bald cypress, live oaks spanish moss, its like a jungle. That's the real subtropical areas. Most Vietnam War movies are shot in that area for a reason.
@@gnjc3480 maybe the very southeastern tip of NC, im pretty sure there might be some areas around the greater Wilmington area. I'm not sure about VA I would say no as they have no native palm species and pretty much border northern states.
Lifelong Humid Subtropical resident weighing in (USA). I'd like to pitch two possible division lines: (a) 3 months below 50F(10C). That would put the line at roughly Little Rock and Memphis. (b) Average monthly snowfall in at least one month being 25.4 mm (1.0 inches). That puts the division at Pine Bluff, AR and Cleveland, MS (40 miles S. of Little Rock and 125 miles S. of Memphis, respectively).
The Koppen climates Cfa/Cwa (The classic Humid Subtropical and its monsoon variation) are the most populated climate zone of earth, but also the most densely populated climate, and why not... the most controversial climate of Koppen due to its wide range of temperatures to be included on it. Definitively... the Koppen celebrity climate.
And an unexpected celebrity too, in the eyes of this KZheadr. I'd always thought the Mediterranean Climate would steal the show...
I always noticed there were two types of humid subtropical climates generally (1 . True hs climate with a winter low of around 10 degrees. 2 cold hs with a more temprate feel ) eg sydney vs Brisbane or punjab vs north east india
because is near by to desert... some desert do had sprinkle of snow on the mountain
I LIVE for this content. You deserve way more subscribers.
Hah! Well thanks. I'll try to make them more often. Don't want you dying and all that...
@@Geodiode have you thought about doing a video on shifting climate zones as a result of global warming? I'm particularly interested in that topic because I live in a Csa location with decently hot summers (day/night avg around 30°C in August) that according to some predictions might transition to BSh within this century
@@waspjournals41 I second that! That would be very interesting!
9:00 is that Corvo Island in the Azores? An unique place, dominated by a rather pleasant Cfb/Cfa 😃 I did experience Cfa mild and cool winter versions and Cfb cool winter version ;) Amazing Video as always!
It may have been Corvo, not sure, but definitely Azores. It's on my bucket list to visit these amazingly beautiful and isolated islands.
@@Geodiode yeah, it looked like corvo because of the caldeira. 6 koppen climate zones on one island group! 😃
Hi Geodiode, Great video, and gosh, what a wonderful climate playlist! For some time I’ve been puzzling over the seemingly broad categories of Cfb and Cfa too…. But isn’t the problem perhaps in the first letter, “C”? For over a century in ordinary language English speakers have constantly drawn a distinction between “tropical” versus “subtropical”. As in, “Miami is tropical, but most of central and northern Florida is subtropical”. There is a huge jump in the Köppen system from the letter “A”, which designates Tropical, i.e. 18 degrees or above average temperature in all months, to the letter “C”, which designates a climate where “the coldest month averages between 0 °C (32 °F) (or −3 °C (27 °F) and 18 °C (64.4 °F) and at least one month averaging above 10 °C (50 °F)” - (here quoting from Wikipedia). Which in turn means that a climate like Cfa is sometimes called “Humid Subtropical”, and at other times it’s called “Warm Temperate” - see en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Humid_subtropical_climate . The problem seems to be Köppen’s failure to recognise a distinct temperature band between the Tropical versus the Temperate, namely, the Subtropical. A temperature band defined, as you suggest, by a lowest winter month average temperature of circa 8 - 10 degrees Celsius. Put succinctly, Köppen conflates the Temperate with the Subtropical, and he should not have. The latter should have been given a completely new letter, although “D” is already taken for Continental Climates. Perhaps all Continental Climates should be renamed “E”, and “D” should in future designate specifically Temperate climates, such as New York’s? In addition, I have also been noticing how Köppen’s primary classification of Mediterranean climates into two types - Csa and Csb - fails to account for the most salient distinction when it comes to Mediterranean climates. Namely, the AMOUNT of rainfall. For an excellent recent article that attends to this distinction in some measure of detail, see www.mdpi.com/2073-4441/9/4/259/htm , mdpi-res.com/d_attachment/water/water-09-00259/article_deploy/water-09-00259.pdf?version=1491477653 , www.mdpi.com/water/water-09-00259/article_deploy/html/images/water-09-00259-g001.png . Fully agreed, Köppen’s classification is not about plants, but rather, about how humans experience climate. But arguably the amount of rainfall that occurs in a Mediterranean climate so overwhelmingly determines how the landscape “feels”, that this is one area where perhaps an exception should be made? Similar to the “n” designation now being used by many for frequent Fog, or the “H” designation for High altitudes? Personally I find it very hard to love the desiccated, ultra-dry islands of the Mediterranean such as Kasos, in the southern Dodecanese, which gets just 271.5 mm per year, and nearly nothing for five months from May to September - en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Climate_of_Greece , en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dodecanese , en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kasos . Kasos is unarguably Csa, and it may have the warmest climate and mildest winter in Europe. It may even classify as 11b in terms of plant hardiness zones. But the utter desiccation of Kasos leaves me personally cold - see www-karpathiakanea-gr.translate.goog/karpathos-kasos-periodes-ipioterous-xeimones/?_x_tr_sl=el&_x_tr_tl=en&_x_tr_hl=en&_x_tr_pto=sc . Here I realise that I am speaking subjectively. If others love such dry, arid islands, more power to them!😌 In short, my personal, very strong preference is instead for the “wet Mediterranean” islands such as Corfu and Capri, and mainland locations like Taormina in Sicily or Berat in Albania. In North America I’d much rather vacation in Mill Valley in Marin County, or the Santa Cruz mountains just south of San Francisco, than vacation anywhere along the coast in Southern California. All of the wet locations just mentioned get more than 900 mm or 36 inches of rainfall per year, and it shows, very visibly, in their dramatically lush and green landscapes. Everything from the Redwoods of northern California to the dense pine and oak forests of the Sorrento peninsula. The “wet” Mediterranean landscape has large trees that remain green throughout hot summers that are still, nonetheless, very dry and very Mediterranean. And yet densely forested islands like Capri and Corfu also classify as Csa, just like Kasos…. The Köppen system’s failure to draw this critical distinction between “dry” versus “wet” Mediterranean climates is another huge oversight. Also note that it’s the dry Meditteranean climates that are most susceptible to desertification, so there’s an ecological dimension to this difference as well. But with that said, many thanks for your article and your video about the “Subtropical Problem”! I came across your video in the course of trying to make sense of the climate of “Northland” in New Zealand. The small city of Kataia’s climate is “borderline Cfa”, because Kataia’s warmest month tops out at 21 degrees Celsius, not 22 degrees Celsius. But Kataia has 5 months that average 18 degrees Celsius or above, and Kataia’s coldest month averages 13 degrees Celsius. So one might even say that Kataia is “borderline Tropical”! And yet Köppen still classifies Kataia as Cfb. Depending on the map one consults, Kataia classifies as either 10b or 11a in terms of plant hardiness, and I can think of only a small handful of other Cfb climates that do! To say that the winters in Kataia are “mild”, is a bit of an understatement…😂 All best wishes, L
Loved the video, it’s always annoyed me that mild winter isn’t taken into account. I live/grew up in Melbourne and have also lived in London. Those climates are vastly different from each other, principally with respect to sunshine, rainfall patterns, wind and temperature. London, for example has long drizzly, misty days during a polar depression which Melbourne simply doesn’t experience (due to latitude). London (and the UK in general) isn’t windy the way southern Australia is. It’s spring here at the moment and mild/cool oceanic winds are smashing us daily, causing all the palms in my garden to sway. Again, not a UK thing (especially the palms). Melbourne is far sunnier than London (despite its local reputation) and at 2300 hrs of annual bright sunshine, it’s on par with Naples, the home of pizza! Finally, our overall annual temps are on par with Madrid & Rome, not at all like London or Paris. Our summers are also bone dry, putting us on par with Greece and Spain. I don’t actually think Melbourne should be classified as oceanic. It’s misleading. I would categorise Melbourne as warm summer med. Indeed, some places in Victoria have that classification (Torquay for example). It just seems odd to me that Melbourne is oceanic when we enjoy perhaps the most comfortable, liveable climate in the world.
Great local perspective. But I'm not sure about the "bone dry summers" comment. All sources indicate a year-round rain model, and I do remember rain in the summer there as a kid, sharply contrasting with Adelaide (where the family moved to after), where the summers are truly bone-dry (Csb climate there).
@@Geodiode I think the person above me could be thinking about humidity instead of rainfall in Melbourne which although doesn't classify as mediterranean, it is still low in rainfall compared to typical oceanic. The humidity in Melbourne during the summer is in fact very low, similar to average Csb climates making the air and the foliage feel like Csb? Just my pressumption, can't speak for any of you cause I live in Cfb/Dfb region
Summers in Melbourne are definitely not bone dry. You can get episodes of torrential rain like we've had in the past 3 years.
Enjoy your channel!! I live in Fort Worth, Texas in a humid subtropical zone and we are at the western part of it so particularly in mid to late summer we get a influence of the Simi Arid region next to us to the west. Houston and Atlanta are considered "classic" humid subtropical as you know because they are in the middle of this climate
Thanks Casey, for your local's perspective. I was once in Ft Worth over Christmas one time and there was snow and ice on the ground. Another time in mid-summer and it was hot, humid and thunderstorms!
Excellent video!!!! I live in Brisbane which is cfa climate, and I've always been a bit confused at how New York is in the same climate zone. Even my brother pointed it out while watching your videos. Definitely think 10 degrees is a great isotherm to Seperate the zone with mild winters and cool winters! I think it's really cool how certain places can be on the border of multiple climate zones. For example Florina, Greece has an average January temp of 0.5 degrees, average July Temp of 21.9 , with year round precipitation. So it's on the border of continental/oceanic/humid subtropical depending on the source
Well the world is warming, so it’s likely formerly continental, now oceanic and will be humid subtropical in the future
@@thomasgrabkowski8283 NYC can't be oceanic. Summers are too hot for that.
Geographical subtropics may include areas that are climatically more warm to mild temperate like Sydney , Perth , Los Angeles or New Orleans etc. , but the TRUE subtropics are those regions bordering on a humid tropical climate with warm to mild winters like central coastal Florida , Easter Island , Durban in South Africa and Brisbane in Australia .
I agree, it's not the most intuitive label, but If you been to any of those subtropical locations in the Summer, it will be very warm and humid like the tropics. Subtropical zones reach as far north as 35°, so with the tilt of the earth during the summer, is going to essentially make it subtropical with the annual rainfall. It's only when you get farther north, like in New England, do you transition into Continental. The same could be said for sub-artic zones (Say Fairbanks, Alaska), the winters are going to resemble pure artic areas.
Yep, this is talked about in my original video on the Humid Subtropical climate, plus more on my video on Seasons. The label is further confused by most non-academics thinking "humid" means "humidity in summer", when it just means "wet" instead of Dry Subtropical (which are Hot Deserts).
things are changing, though. i lived on Long Island, the sububs of NYC from the 70s until 2000, and have lived in Boston now since 2011. the weather in Boston is now warmer than it used to be, and more like what the weather used to be on Long Island in the late 20th century, while Long Island is getting more like south New Jersey or Delaware.
Congrats, great video! I like that you came up with a justified solution to this problem. So i have a question, do you have more information on why did you choose the 10C isotherm? You mentioned that it rules out night frosts but I would like to read further on this, because these lines are very blurry, like for example the isotherm to determine if a climate is C or D (0 or -3), so I think similarly there would be some arguments for a different isotherm around 10 C like for example 7 C. Keep up with the great work, this is undoubtedly one the best geography channels in youtube.
Thank you, and thanks for the sub! I picked the 10 celsius isotherm as I believe it at the point when most people think of weather as being cool/cold to warm.
Great video! Thank you. Helped me answer many questions I had. Will you be willing to make one for desert areas in the tropics, as suggested?
Thanks. I feel I've already covered tropical deserts - did you see my video on Lima, Peru?
Thank you for the videos and and answering this. Just some nice climate questions 1. What do you think of the Savannah having their trees shed its leaves during the dry seasons so different from the tropical I was used too 2. The subpolar occeanic climate akin to a perpetual autumn seems like a good video. What are they’re natural vegetation, trees that grow there?agricultural significance. Are autumn there beautiful? Or the purple color for the continental like those in Turkey seems like a good video goi further into the classifications 3. I didn’t feel like you really went into the semi arid climates both hot and cold. Cactuses like those in Arizona and northern Mexico and steppe climate , what can really grow there any natural trees that are unique to them the way cactuses are for the hot dessert both arid and semi 4. I also felt like you brush over the mediterranean climate a bit much, like the power punch they have with biodiversity and the natural vegetation they have. THANK YOU FOR EVERYTHING.
I'm a New Yorker and it definitely feels like a humid continental climate in the winter and a subtropical climate in the summer which I guess makes sense because we're right on the border of the two classifications. New York is definitely an edge case of the Cfa zone. Yes, we never have a month where day/night average temperatures are below freezing but we're very nearly there in January and February. We definitely don't have the same type of climate as the southeast but we certainly don't have the same climate as places further inland in the US at similar latitudes.
Yes, it is right on the edge. In fact Manhatten is Cfa, but I think you go up into Tarrytown, only 20(?) miles north and it's Dfa...
I feel like the “cool winter subtropical” may as well be grouped in with the continental climates as a “hot summer/cool winter continental” climate, or something. I’m currently in Maryland but spent some time in Texas, and the lack of cold weather/snow in the winter really makes for an overall different perception of the year round climate. It absolutely feels more like say, Boston here than Houston. There needs to be some line that delineates “subtropical” climates with cold winters and semi-regular snow, from true subtropical climates with mild winters and rare to non existent snow. A solution to this, as you pointed out, would be basing it off the 10C isotherm, although I would personally make it just a degree or two colder, pushing the line to maybe Macon, GA/Montgomery, AL or so. Nice vid as always!
Glad you liked the vid, and yes I agree the presence or absence of frost/snow in a climate seems to be very important to human perception of climate. It amazed me that Koppen would group mild and cold winter subtropical in the same code.
People are obsessed with labels. Just witness the freakout over "is Pluto a planet"? You did a good job of explaining this to the layman who is on a hair trigger and ready to scream about anything. Every scientific classification system is just an attempt to split up the continuous nature of reality in a way that makes sense in a particular system. They are just labels, useful in some cases, not useful in others. Language and categorization are simply crude tools. Love your videos.
Thanks very much, and I agree 100% with your viewpoint!
The big gap between winters of some temperate climates was always weird to me but what's even weirder is how different two arid or semi arid climates can be. Two climate examples can be in the same B category but one is very continental and other has very little seasonal temperature change resulting in very different summer and winter. Another thing is the difference between some continental climates being close to 0 average day/night temperatures during the coldest month while other having having the coldest month even up to -20 average and both could be classified as Dfb or Dwb Dfa.. etc I guess there are more flaws here to be found.
The Desert types has not many subtypes as it doesnt matter much for human habitability anyway. The more extreme version of this is the polar types, since very little people live there, there is only 2 subtypes.
@@shrek8781 what are you talking about? Huge amount of people live in deserts ans semi arid areas. It is not important for human settlement? How do you explain first civilizations including in egypt or middle east? There is a video on this channel on habitability and population of different koppen zones and you can see that the arid and semi arid regions are among the ones with the big amount of people.
@@shrek8781 I guessing you have never visited Las Vegas or Dubai then.
Супер видео спасибо вам ! !
Yeah, NYC is what I call subtropical continental
Exactly, New York has two climates : (Cfa) Subtropical and (Dfa) Continental 🤷♂️
I'm a huge plant nerd, so naturally I ended up getting dragged into the mess of climates and all their variants and quirks. As a huge fan of mild winter subtropical and mild winter oceanic climates (one day if I ever have the funds I'll move to the Coromandel peninsula, hopefully in some native bush), I've always wondered about all the various distinctions and variants and where they lie. I've never seen it put so nice and clearly before, this is exactly what I've been looking for for ages! You should try and make your own fully defined system and put it on a publicly available map (perhaps a .kml file for use in google earth?) as I'm sure many people would appreciate that quite a lot! I must say its a bit of a shame that these climates are so heavily populated. The subtropical and oceanic climate forests outside of the US and Europe are absolutely majestic, yet being able to experience them intact and without loads of people, let alone the ability to actually _live_ in them, is a near impossibility now as they're either crammed into parks or quite degraded.
Interesting comment, thanks! And glad you like the video! It's by no accident that these areas are so heavily populated, and in Europe, are on a par with large Asian populated areas in terms of density. Fantastic for growing crops, and in general very mild with no harsh winters or sweltering summers, make this a desirable place to live.
In my opinion, there should be another line north of Washington DC that divides cool winters and cold winters. Here in NJ, across the river from New York, we experience cold winters as average. But there are some days that are cool (and even mild, but are exceptions). For me, very cold is
Cold winters would simply be a continental climate (koppen Dfa) which some areas of new jersey have, using the 0*C isotherm all of new jersey has this climate.
@@tristancapuzzi4083 yes, but NYC have also cold winters and there is no difference here in Union City, Jersey City, Hoboken, etc which have the same climate (am located just less than a couple miles from NYC). In the other hand, northwestern suburbs, such as in Sussex County, Warren Co, etc is colder. For example, a typical January night here and in NYC is 31°F whereas in Sussex Co and Warren Co in NJ could be 24°F or even 18°F.
Vast majority of northern Jersey is actually in a different climate zone than NYC, it's basically cool winter subtropical (NYC and northern Jersey along the water) vs somewhat cold winter continental (anywhere northern Jersey a few miles inland), so not relevant here. It is the urban heat island effect plus being closer to the shoreline that causes this distinction. There is only a small strip of land on the margins of hudson and bergen counties in northern NJ where the climate is aligned wifh NYC. I have lived in both lcoations throughout most of my life, it's definitely distinguishable difference.
@@cfl9077 I think last time I checked which was a 5 years ago, Northwest countys in NJ are all humid continental. I don’t think it’s that way anymore, but I don’t pay attention to updated climate zone updates, and think updating climate zones every decade is a bit subjective.
But do remember, there is a difference between weather and climate and if you look at like 30 year monthly averages, the difference between NYC and DC and then between DC and NC is a couple degrees. But I think we have to remember these climate zones aren’t all the same and they are completely different once you cross the border (they are not like biomes in Minecraft lol) they are blended with one another and depending where you are temps can vary in a single climate zone. But like what was said in the video, yes you could keep dividing up climates getting more and more complex definitions and categories, but the purpose of the Koppen Climate Classification System is to have an easy definition for both scientists and the general public to understand.
Terimakasih bang sangat menambah wawasan saya
You should have a separate series on the mild desert climate you mentioned
Good way to delineate and refine Koppen's Humid Subtropical into cool vs. mild winter belts. Excellent video! For your 10C/50F line for the winter daily mean, do you mean the season (like Dec, Jan, Feb) or the coldest month? And is your coldest part of Humid Subtropical (cool winters) 0C/32F, or some other temperature or time period? Thanks!
The coldest month for the 10C/50F line, yes. Usually January. I personally use the 0C line for Humid Subtropical and Oceanic vs Continental division.
I see an issue there: New York seems located just outside of the humid subtropical climate zone, the latter reaching only up to southern New Jersey instead. Is it possibly this the origin of the matter?
I think its because NYC (and like 10 miles radius around) have the Heat Island Effect and it raise the temps a few degrees up. But its so small in a map, that they didn't included it. Thats what I think.
3dplanet nailed it.
It’s a combination of mild oceanic moderation, and the urban heat island effect as to why New York is CfA and not DfA
@@mooseears9849 you think New York has a complicated koppen classification, check out LA.
@@alaskanbullworm5500 Due to LA having so many microclimates
Why do we use 22°C as the limit between hot summer and warm summer ? Isn't it a bit arbitrary ?
My take is to make Hot summer classify as having 4 months or more that get more than 19 degrees. Arbitrary? Absolutely. Do you think a person with a shrek profile would be a climatologist master?
Think human perception. What do most people consider a warm day vs a hot day. If you surveyed what temperature most people would be comfortable sitting in, it's between 21 and 23 celsius.
@@Geodiode whats your opinion my one? 4 months or more having 19 degrees or more
@@Geodiode Makes sense heheh, thank you !
Weirdly some urban heat influenced areas of central Vienna and Boston Massachussets are classified as Cfa as well !!
Great video! Always found it crazy that my country (UK) has the 'same' climate type to the high altitude parts of Colombia and Ecuador!
Yep "same" in heavy quotes. It's kind of a failure of the Koppen system. But then, we have to keep things simplified otherwise it loses meaning and ability to be understood for all but academic types.
Great Video loved it!!! So would Washington DC ,NYC, and Baltimore MD be considered humid subtropical?
Thanks! Yes they are - see the original Humid Sub. video for more on this.
Another interesting anomaly are the pockets of Cfb climate in the Appalachian mountains, which are in a zone that would normally be Cfa. Some towns such as the aptly named Highlands, NC have cooler summer temperatures due to altitude, like the subtropical highlands. But they have a clearly defined winter season, like the normal oceanic climate. So which is it? Wikipedia calls it subtropical highland in its description of Highlands but oceanic on the map. This could possibly go either way. One town, Boone NC, even has the Dfb climate type.
I am aware of those Cfb spots in the Appalachians, and honestly, they defy classification really. Just think of them as a cooler Cfa, but not really Subtropical Highlands.
Perhaps it would make sense to have a 2d graph of all the climate types next to their adjacent types with a dot on the map for each city which could be right in the middle or closer to the edge of a zone with one or more others if it is borderline to show just how much of each climate zones influence it has.
Great Video. But I have a question, why does Koppen classify Grand Bahama (An Island in the Caribbean) as Aw, even though it is 26 degrees north and vegetation more analagous to central florida (climate type Cfa) than the Brazilian Amazon? And it does get seriously cold for an Aw climate, even passing below freezing at least a night per year.
Thanks! There is a simple formula for "A" (Tropical) climates, and that is the average day/night temperature year round must be above 18 celsius. Grand Bahama easily falls into this category with the winter average being about 24 celsius. The reason why it can stay so much warmer than Florida on the same latitude is that it sits within the warm waters of the Gulf Stream, while mid-Florida and above is subjected to cold continental flows coming down from the north in winter, and so this makes that area subtropical "Cfa".
@@Geodiode Correct me if I'm wrong, I think the average in the coldest month (january) is 20.68 C which is so close to the 18 C threshold, so maybe that explains why I think it is cold for an Af climate. I wish it was cooler here, cold like the Ice Age! :(
Great video! Question: At what altitude is an oceanic climate considered Subtropical Highlands?
Thanks! It's actually a tough question to answer, but in general I'd say above 1,500m AND within (or just outside of) the Tropics.
Palms can and do thrive in Arkansas, North Carolina, Oklahoma and Tennessee, too, even though they're in the "cool" humid subtropical zone. They're just smaller and lesser known than the big ones in the Deep South (even while being native to here too, they're mostly hidden away in the swamps and jungles, not on roadsides where you can see them easily).
I feel like the other inconsistency in the Humid subtropical is with respect to India/Myanmar, with summers in Northern India in this zone easily reaching maximums of almost 50, with hot desert like winds blowing. While the winter is still cool(
This makes more sense but even in NZ the climate is considerable different due to oleographic influence and ocean currents. I find it interesting that Auckland with its mild highs but mild lows and reasonable year-round rainfall (and high humidity) has a distinctly more subtropical feel than many of the areas identified as humid subtropical. It can grow a much wider variety of palm species owing to its predictably low variance of temperatures, noting many subtropical species are quite sensitive to cold but not necessarily the lack of high heat. The northern tip of NZ being moderated by the ocean also has a cool daytime average temperature and even more mild winter nighttime temperatures. In parts you would be forgiven for thinking you were somewhere subtropical with the vegetation that is grown there commercially (banana, pineapple etc). Tricky climate type to classify.
I was shocked to know new zealands north island has subtropical rainforests when it’s considered oceanic 😅
Anyway i saw this koppen climate map of nz it mentions it has a tropical rainforest climate too?en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Climate_of_New_Zealand#/media/File%3AKoppen-Geiger_Map_NZL_present.svg
@@introtwerpit doesn’t have tropical rainforests but they are rainforests. In the north of NZ you would be forgiven for thinking they look like one. Very complex structure to them with sub-canopy and emergent layer etc, broadleaved, evergreen, vines and epiphytes, palms, tree ferns… on the west coast of the South Island it is extremely wet temperate rainforest. Looks nothing like what you would see in the northern hemisphere.
@@gnjc3480 the west coast of the South Island would be similar to the Valdivian. In the north of NZ the rainfall is lesser and the climate quite benign and vegetation distinctly tropical in nature.
As for Auckland, it also sees distinct rainfall peak in winter and rainfall levels bottoms out in the summer and is quite common to have very dry summers but winters are pretty much always wet so also some Mediterranean characteristics so climate there is kind of mixture between oceanic, humid subtropical and Mediterranean
Honestly quality video! Amazing, as always. So well, here is other complaints about the Koppen Climate Classification XD (I think its a great system but obviously every system has flaws). The opposite of the generalising effect is the "too many" effect of the subarctic climates, in my opinion. Seriously, 6 subarctic types? 3 for Very Cold winter where precipitation doesnt matter (I think, as not many people live there). Plus the 3 subpolar oceanic climates are well, yeah I think you can predict my opinion lol. Also, dont bother with the hate comments, we all like your videos :( Just joking of course :) Ok now ill finish this essay
Thanks! It was a joke about the death threats. Just a commentary on how crazy mad some people get on YT comments in general. But we all know this about YT. I agree that there are just too many subarctic classifications. Like who cares if it's a dry winter? It's just bloody COLD! Notice that Koppen didn't bother with any of this distinction with his Tundra (ET) climate. And if you scroll around, you'll see people asking me to do a special video on these pretty irrelevant subtypes within subarctic. I'm not interested in them, and I'm pretty sure that most viewers aren't either (I try to make videos that will actually get decent numbers of views, and not just satisfy a few climate nerds).
@@Geodiode Im sure youve heard of Holridge life zones. Basically, the colder a place is, the less diversity it has, unlike hot places such as deserts or tropical rainforests.
Not bad, I live in Auckland and have been keeping weather data for years. Our winter averages are between 12 degrees for June and August and 11 for July. We have had no days ever below freezing, the coldest was 0.9 degrees (All celsius - no American grading here) in 2017 and only 1 day where it failed to reach 10 degrees - This July was cold with an average temp of 11.2c the average high was 15.3 and low 7.1c. Our summers are only just below 22c, usual Februarys have an official average of 19.9c but with global warming they are 20.5 - 21.5c. One February had average high of 26.3c and low of 17.9c giving us 22.2c. This year was a cold February with an average high of only 23.6c and low of 16.2 giving us 19.9, but it was the coldest since the 80s. Trewartha rightly gives a C ranking and I have real issue with Koppen giving us CBF and putting us on par with iceland, Loftoten, Alaska and Northern Scotland, places with averages of like 4c and 12c highs in summer, whereas our average temp is nearly 16c.
Thanks for your local perspective. Good to have it confirmed that you've never witnessed a frost. A snow flurry, I wonder? Iceland and the other places you mentioned are Cfc - a very different climate even to England.
@@Geodiode We have NEVER had snow. they claimed it did on Aug 15/16 2011 - but in fact it was graupel and the low that day was 6.4 degrees with windchill of 5 degrees. That was the one day it did not reach 10 degrees (9.6) - August is like your February here. Even on the highest point of the Coromandels Moehau at 900m has had snow flurries only 3 times. The other time it apparently snowed was on July 26th 1939 (Seriously!). Also Auckland province includes the top half of the North Island - so snow in Auckland means Rangipo, a place 700m above sea level near lake Taupo 350km from Auckland! Our climate is so much warmer than any part of the UK - its more like Northern Portugal with more rain. All the English plants here are basically weeds as they spread like wildfire, we have palms, birds of paradise, hibisuc flowers and a 12 month growing season here. Usual winter day is showery with a high of 14 or 15 degrees. Its the cold clear days that are the chilliest think a low of 5 - 2 degrees and high of 11 - 14 degrees. Summers are warm, but we don't get 30+ days, the hottest are 27 to 29, but it is like 90% humidity and feels like 35. Most days are 23 - 26 and lows stay in the high teens. Better than a warm summer, but okay not a hot one. February and March are very stuffy months, think no sleep at night. Most years every day reaches at least 20 between 20 Dec and 10 of April.
@@Moneytane1976 maybe it's warmer than UK because auckland is on Low latitude compared to UK.(37 degrees auckland and 51 for london)
Agreed about Auckland! I do think that Northern New Zealand breaks most climate classifications haha I think Raoul Island is an interesting case study as well - very mild/warm winters yet the summers aren't particularly hot, especially compared to other places with humid subtropical climates. It's basically a warmer version of the climate in Northland. I love the climate in Auckland, I have the best garden!! haha
Best information on climate available. Here is my question: do Oceanic climates have dry or humid air? I ask because I’ve lived in Florida most of my life and recently traveled to Seattle for the summer. Personally, I hate the dry heat Becsuse it drains me of water, where the humid heat in Florida is easy to combat by simply getting wet. Oddly though, I popped absolute humidity values in a spreadsheet for both places and an 80f December day in a Florida January should have about the same amount of moisture in the atmosphere as an 80f day in a Seattle July (with both being about 13 g/m^3) due to similar dew points during those months. But, I can tell you first hand that I sweat much more on such a day inSeattle than I ever did in Florida, leading me to wonder why. Now, I know that you made a distinction between Csb and Cfb climates in your other video, but I’m wondering if the Oceanic climates air is dry like a Csb Seattle or humid like say New York. I never want to be in a dry heat simmer region ever again in my life, so just seeing if UK is a place o should avoid in the summer. I love cold and wet and I grew up in the tropics, so I can endure that too, but this “Mediterranean” summer is just not for me lol. Thanks!
Thanks for checking in. The UK in summer varies between dry and humid. It depends upon the airflow and atmospheric pressure. This summer was dry with low humidity, but past summers have been humid. So it's a mix in that regard.
Koppen was a botanist after all. His map was made with plants in mind not humans.
If that was the case he wouldnt group new york with florida in terms of climate
@@introtwerp my exact thought
Good luck grouping New Zealand with almost any of the northern hemisphere equivalent. And even within NZ it varies greatly due to sharp rainfall and temperature variations
@@HamishSmitty thats true nz has a unique mild oceanic climate thats almost humid subtropical
And he was a drunkard. All that vodka he used to drink. Big glasses of it every time.
could you make a video on how Himalayas affects subcontinent climate.
Already done so - see my video on The Asian Monsoon.
In Brazil, winter is mainly cold in the south and southeast. Very cold regions are southern Minas Gerais, southern Mato Grosso do Sul, mountainous regions of Rio de Janeiro and Espírito Santo. The coldest states are those of the southern cone São Paulo, Paraná, Santa Catarina and Rio Grande do Sul. This winter, temperatures in the mountain regions reached a thermal sensation of -24 degrees. With effective temperatures of -13, for example. It's spring, and while it's 30 degrees in the northeast of Brazil, it was 1 degree in Campos do Jordão - São Paulo, for example.
Wouldn’t that be continental
But the south of Brazil in average temperatures are not so low, even in winter temperatures there are areas where they exceed 18 ° C (low areas mostly). In addition, those extremes that you name are not normal, for a reason they are absolute, normally the minimum is around 11°c and 5°c, and the absolute -4°c and -6°c, these temperatures are common in areas marked as "milds" in Northern Argentina (an area not considered cold at all, in fact the opposite). The only area with a "cool" type subtropical climate is, as it is named in the video, the continental plains of Buenos Aires, La Pampa and Cordoba, where winter temperatures are around 7°C and 11°C on average and the minimum averages are around between 2°c and 5°c, the absolute ones are normally between -8°c and -13°c. As you can see there is a notable difference, for the classification of koppen climates averages are used, not extremes. For example, the lowest temperature recorded in Florida was -19°C. If we based ourselves on this, the classification would be practically subarctic, but as we all know, Florida is not even close to being so. Returning to Brazil, the areas that are considered temperate or cold in that country have an oceanic climate, which is why it is moderate and being very close to the Tropic of Capricorn, this difference is much smaller. The only area that could be considered subtropical or oceanic of the "cool" type in Brazil would be the highest peaks of the Serras Gauchas, but touching.
@@berno5920 It's wrong. In Brazil, the highest regions of the south and southeast have minimum temperatures below -10 in winter. Not just the Serra Gaúcha, all the mountains in the South and Southeast have very low temperatures. The only part of Argentina that is extremely cold is Patagonia and Chile the Andes. Everything else is the same type of subtropical existing throughout the southern cone (Chile, Argentina, Uruguay, Rio Grande do Sul, Santa Catarina, Paraná and São Paulo). Obviously, these are different climates from Canada, for example, which is almost at the North Pole, but it is still a temperate climate, since the seasons change considerably in terms of fauna and flora.
@@hl8176 Yes, but whatever the annual or historical extreme, it should not be a cold climate for that reason. In the province of Chaco in Argentina the absolute minimum is -10°C, but it is still subtropical and semi-arid warm. And the fact that the same or similar climates exist in the southern cone does not mean that they all have to have the same characteristics. Comparing Igauçu with Bahia Blanca is absurd, both have subtropical climates, but the differences are very big. The same thing happens in the United States, comparing New Orleans with New York is even more absurd even though they are of the same climatic type. I who live near Buenos Aires can say that the winters here are very mild and not very cold, the averages are 11°c, the minimums are 7°c, the maximums are 15°c and the absolutes are -2°c. But if you go to the same latitude but further away from the seas in, for example, General Pico, the difference changes a lot, the averages are 8°c, the minimums are 2°c, the maximums are 15°c and the absolute normally it is around -8°c. The same two cities in the same climate.
@@berno5920 How is it not cold weather, my friend? There are people who live on the streets who even freeze to death… 🤌🏻
When are you making a video about the Cold Subtropical Highland (Cwc/Cfc) climate? :(
You should segway from this channel into a tourism channel where you utilize this info to journey the world at certain times of year one day. There used to be travel agencies, you could be an online one. Although, if you can stand 50 degrees in a T shirt you're going to have to humor us that would have long sleeves and a jacket on haha
Believe me, I've thought about this idea - "Geodiode On Location". But it requires (a) a lot of money and (b) nice governments that aren't obsessing over a certain virus. I hope one day to do this!
The problem with the C climate type is the wide range the average coldest month temperature, which is between 0 and 18 degrees Celsius. Climates with average winter temperatures below 10 degrees should no longer be called subtropical even if they feature hot summers.
I would like to know what is significant about 1.6 inches (40mm) as ONE OF THE deciding factors in whether you have a c”F”b or a c”S”b, for example. I know what the rule is, I wanna know how this rule was determined. Does vegetation turn brown without at least 1.6 inches a month? It’s obviously not arbitrary. Koppen surely had a reason for this rule. I just can’t figure it out.
Hello there, I found your videos very informative. I was wondering if you could help me find a place in Australia wherein the temperature does not go below 10 DC and above 30 DC
Glad you found them useful. If you're talking about average temperatures, then Melbourne should be in that group. If you are talking about maximum/minimum peak temperatures, then there's no such place in Australia, or indeed almost any Oceanic zone globally.
Here's my take on this: I like the idea of separating out the humid subtropical climate into distinct subtypes of cool and mild winter as shown at 6:36. Interestingly enough, the northern range limit of southern live oak closely follows this boundary. However, I would relabel the cool winter variant of humid subtropical as really a hot summer variant of the humid continental climate. This would reorganize the Köppen warm and hot summer continental climates into cool, warm, and hot (formerly subtropical) summer continental climates. The hot summer continental climate or "Upper South" climate would include southern Ohio and New York City in the north to around Atlanta, Georgia and Columbia, South Carolina in the south. By contrast, another "new" climate zone would be subtropical highland/mild oceanic climate, which would be the extremely mild winter version of the oceanic climate, including coastal California; Bogota, Columbia; and Auckland, New Zealand. Even though Melbourne has relatively warmer summer temperatures, it could still fit in this new extremely mild oceanic category simply because the summers are still cool for subtropical standards. So these borderline cases almost have opposite problems (and proposed solutions). The summer in SF and winter in Atlanta (let alone New York City) would each be a stretch to consider subtropical. With these changes, New York and New Orleans are separated by one climate type in the same way that London and Bogota are. My proposed realistic compromise would be for the hot summers and freezing winters in NYC to be labeled as the "upper south climate" or hot summer continental climate. The mild summer and mild winter oceanic climates would also get lumped together as mild oceanic due to extreme ocean moderation (much of New Zealand, coastal California) or subtropical highland (Bogota).
It's an interesting proposal. I think this video has had the highest number of comments to views of any of my videos, so it's certainly a hot topic among us climate nerds!
This was great, I think it’s smart to have NYC as a Humid Subtropical Cool Winter climate and New Orleans as a Humid Subtropical Mild Winter climate. I wonder if it’s possible we could add a fourth letter for Winter with a being mild and b being cool so NYC’s climate is cfab and New Orleans is cfaa. When it comes to a climate zones map tho, I feel like it would be smart to have blended map. Because if a humid subtropical mild winter climate has a mean (Day/Night) average winter temperature above 50°F and below that for a humid subtropical cool winter climate, than people right around the line can easily swing back and fourth. But regardless interesting video. It also sort takes into account year to year weather variability unintentionally as well for an example even our warmest winters on record in NJ-NYC struggle to get above say 40-43°F for a mean (Day/Night) average monthly temperature for any of the three months of meteorological winter. Day to day Day/Night temperatures we could get slightly above that in a mild winter (easily so just looking at maximum daily temperatures) but that isn’t climate at that point. Though closer to the border of the cool/mild humid subtropical zones year to year monthly/seasonal mean (Day/Night) average temperatures can go above and below that 50°F in like Texas, Louisiana, Mississippi, Alabama, Georgia, South Carolina, North Carolina, and parts of Oklahoma, Arkansas, and Tennessee every year for an example. And of course the cool winter variet of the humid subtropical zone becomes more pronounced the further north you go.
So cfb is just a cooler and high altitude version of tropical rainforest?
Ugh, I wish it were t-shirt weather in winter here (cool winter cfb). We've been having a very pleasant september (daytime highs around 20 degrees celcius, barely any rain/grey clouds) and I suddenly understand why some americans are so obsessed with fall/autumn, haha. Anyway, great video and I think your solution is elegant.
Thanks Sofia! Which part of the Cfb world are you in? Here in the UK we've had a very pleasant September, but it looks like it's about to change next week. Autumn... bleh...
@@Geodiode The Netherlands! Just looked up the weather forecast and it's also going to be looking a lot more like ’real' autumn, haha :')
Okay Geodiode, I got a stumper for ya. Why is it that northwestern Europe and coastal British Columbia BOTH have Cfb climates, but BC is a coniferous forest and NW Europe is a deciduous forest?
An excellent question... to which I don't have the answer. But see my "Temperate Forests" video for some suggestions.
@@Geodiode my theory is that British Columbia borders more on Csb than NW Europe does, making it more suitable for conifers.
@@gnjc3480 I don't believe it has much to do with the severe winters and short summers that taigas get which yield conifers and hardy deciduous trees like aspen, but rather the dry summers that many deciduous trees don't thrive as well in.
I l think it’s just mere luck that the northwest is dominated with conifers since there are a lot of spots with a strong cfb that are still filled with conifers.
@@tjohnson2139 I'm not sure... I have a hard time thinking that luck justifies species occurence. There has to be a reason that conifers survive better than deciduous trees. For example, it's not luck that the deciduous forests of North America and east Asia turn mostly red in the autumn, while in Europe they turn mostly yellow. That entirely due to glaciation and the fact European mountain ranges run west to east, creating a barricade that many species couldn't retreat over and went extinct whereas similar species could survive in their north to south running counterparts.
Why does a noticeable chunk of Angola and Zambia have subtropical (cwb and cwa) climate types, despite being relatively close to the equator. Is this due to high elevation. This has always confused me. 🧐
Correct GN JC, they are subtropical highland areas with a wet/dry season (African southern monsoon). They haven't been mentioned very much because it's very difficult to find video footage of these areas for inclusion.
Tierra fria type areas, basically.
Are you still going to discuss the 0°/-3°C Continental climate isotherm? I think if we made a new climate group called Subcontinental for places with coldest winter averages between 0° and -3°C it would solve the issue.
Hmm, would that improve it very much though? Depends on how many new climates are introduced. I dont think climate type overload is a good thing.
I'm with Shrek on this one. Honestly, the fact that climatologists don't agree on that isotherm... I prefer 0 degrees, as it keeps it more intuitive, and I'm sure it acts as a de-marcation on plant life.
@@shrek8781 Yeah, that's the downside to the idea.
@@Geodiode I think one source of the problem is like you suggested, that the D group has no universal agreement on what it should represent. I've seen maps when it's the "Snow" group with -3°C as the isotherm and the "Cold/continental" group with either 0° or -3°C. I think 0°C ultimately works the best as well as snow may not stick to the ground for long periods around that isotherm, but it does commonly fall during winter in it. If you look at average snowfall maps of the United States you'll see this. Annual snowfall is about a foot or more at the Cfa/Dfa border.
@@Geodiode Totally agree!
Great video! Also you should investigate the line between Mediterranean and humid subtropical/oceanic climates in Europe. Especially in Eastern Europe and in the balkans until northern Greece the climate is more continental in winter and while mostly dry in the summer cannot be classified as solely Mediterranean because some very severe thunderstorm occur often. A primary example is Thessaloniki in Greece or Istanbul.
The Balkans are a really interesting border zone where many different climates meet. Florina (Greece) is a really good example, which can be considered either continental, oceanic or humid subtropical depending on the data
@@melinakerifanNiš, Serbia, also. Summers are hot, maximums can reach 38°, but winters are not as cold as 20 years ago. January average is about +1.5°C for Niš
I've always considered the Virginia Beach area to be the northern bound of the subtropics on the east coast of the United States.
5:32 Crazy how the eastern US has latitudinal climate zones while the west has longitudinal zones.
I think we should start going by the WWF biome classification system bc it shows the temperate biomes, which dont exactly fully align with the temperate climates
Biomes and climate zones are two very different things. There's a whole series I've devoted to each subject
How come where I live in West Yorkshire, it says on google that the average day knight temp in July is 14.5c, yet it’s in the oceanic climate, and our summers are always a lot warmer than 14.5c
Ey up Aidan! I spent my teenage years in Huddersfield, so I'm very familiar with the climate there. To answer your question, day/night mean temperatures take the average of the peak day and low night temperature. So as it's 19 peak average in the day, it's 10 peak low at night, giving a mean of 14.5 degrees.
@@Geodiode yeh I go to north Halifax school, which always gets snow sometime in the winter, but during exam season it’s always nice and sunny and warm. Thanks for answering me question
Wow
I refuse to believe that i live in a subtropical climate 😂
Do you live in new york
@@introtwerp yessir
idk but i live on Capricorn tropic line on east coast of Aus for the last 16 years we get some nice cool winters sometimes with nice day temps and sometimes summer is 40 and 60 percent humind
Wow I would have thought where you were (Cairns? Townsville?) was Tropical, surely?
The other classification that's too broad is the semi-arid climate, especially the BSk. You just know it's too broad if San Diego, Lethbridge (Alberta), Beijing, and Albuquerque, four very different climates, share the same classification.
The climate of SC is pretty trash in winter, gets frosty in winter upstate. Bwh is my more ideal climate, Great video btw
Did you meant Bwk, bwh has very hot summers temperature reaching above 45°C (113°F) durning peak of summer some places with Bwk even get temperatures has high as 50°C (122°F), I think you should go for Bwk which means cold desert climate, however this one too has very cold winters during peak of winter temperature can be between the range of -15°C to -20°C or 5°F to -4°F, so extreme climate in both cases ;)
South Carolina ?
@@mayankkumar4161 I mean BwH I’m from Egypt I’m used to high heat
@@gnjc3480 low country is nice
Oh damn, ive never seen someone say they would like to live in a hot desert. Well, you are unique!
Hi☺ Geodiode! Amazing video💙☺!! - Do you have a (work) e-mail Geodiode? -for this reasons i think that where i live(d) this 10 percent that is fail of the koppen classification occurs where i live(d), ( i live(d) in southwestern part of Brazil in the state of Mato Grosso do Sul), the nature and climate state has being devastaded, but i saw the entire video and this state (MS) in the winter depend but like in the Capital (Campo Grande MS) the winter have a media of -1, but if you going more south gets more cold and north the opposite;
The climates in Southern Brazil get complex because of a mix of upland areas in a transition between tropical and subtropical climates... You can find my email via the channel page "About" tab :)
Is the climate in Bangladesh including a subtropical climate where Bangladesh is crossed by the Tropic of Cancer?
You can google a map of Koppen climate of Bangladesh. It shows Subtropical Cwa in the north-west. The rest of the country is tropical.
@@Geodiode so banglades has a subtropical climate too
There is a mistake in map of Europe, where Serbia has only small humid subtropical spots, and in reality, big part of Serbia has winters over 0°
What about Mediterranean climate? Is it subtropical or temperate?
Yes
Welllllllllllllllllllll...depends, both, sometimes, sometimes neither
@@shrek8781 What Mediterranean climates aren't temperate?
@@yoironfistbro8128 southern spain, Califor ia, and israel area. They get warm winters.
@@shrek8781 South greece, south italy and Cyprus gets mild winters too
Even Budapest is, according to some, "has continental climate, bordering humid subtropical" bro when you can't exist for 4 months every year, without your hands freezing numb spending 1 minute outside, you would NEVER think of ANYTHING that remotely has to deal with "tropical", sub or not
Or just separating it by the annual mean temperature of the 18c isotherm?
A 17ºC average annual temperature still looks subtropical to me (that's the average annual temperature of Osaka, for example).
Funny fact: according to Wikipedia, Budapest, at latitude 47ºN, has a humid subtropical climate.
What about Budapest in Hungary? It seems to be a humid subtropical climate nowadays because of climate change. But, the precipitation is too low to be called the "humid" one, I think so. BTW I have never been to Hungary.
Hot summer continental, the northern balcanic region has also this climate, similar variation to the great lake region in the US like Chicago or Buffalo.
Low precipitation does not always correlate to humidity
@@An-kw3ec Budapest now tho thanks to climate change and UHI is Cfa not Dfa/Dfb
This will be a few comments in 1 1. 5:24 I always thought Glenn Thomas trewartha was a woman 2. 11:20 if the tropical/subtropical line is the same as as the oceanic/subpolar oceanic line, and subtropical highland zones have no 4 seasons wouldn’t there only be a tiny ring of oceanic between subpolar oceanic and tropical. 3. I divided a similar system, which I have changed due to some good ideas from this video not being In the original. Mild winter is 50 to 64 Fahrenheit. Cool winter is 50 Fahrenheit or Below in the coldest month and is above 50 c for more than 8 months, and very cool winter where there are less than 8 months avraging above 50 Fahrenheit. 4. At first I was very confused as to why anyone would send death threats to a climatologist/youtuber
How come they are making a fuss with artcles that now NYC is so hot it is considered a subtropical Climate, if it has always been considered subtropical?
Because people on the internet love to argue ;)
No, it used to be classified as continental, and just below subtropical and global warming nudged average winter temperatures just above the subtropical threshold recent periods
Hope you start talking about the “subtropicalization” of certain are like the occeanic in Europe.
NYC is in the border between Cfa and Dfa, so it doesn't have a typical subtropical climate. And people who are reading the word "subtropical" for the first time will have trouble understanding why a city with cold winters is subtropical.
i do think south asias humid subtropical needs more zone. especially a western variety vs an eastern variety. even tho both will fit ur mild section maybe the eastern variety may even be considered warm, like patna, bihar and siliguri both have no winter month with max less then 20, also most if not almost 95% of thier rain comes from summer monsoon and only rarely a western wave gives it rain in winter. So i think eastern variety is purely monsoon driven and almost warm winters with rare frosts and avg max never falling below 20 and average min never below 5. On the other hand i think there is a western variety which could be called as more cooler/colder and more western disturbance influenced, as in it has two peaks of precipitation one in summer and one in late winter/spring. this zone also having much more influence from cold incursions from central asia. these areas hv typicall avg winter highs of below 20 and above 15 meanwhile the avg winter minimums r below 5 and above 0 and winter frost are quite common during peak of winter or cold wave. this i think would be most typical in North-east pakistan in islamabad. what do u think?
Thanks for your perspective. There have been a number of comments on the "Western Disturbance" in N. Pakistan. I may do a future video on this subject. But for now I think my detailed video on the Asian Monsoon covers the subject for the moment, while I have other more pressing subjects.
I think you the eastern one should be northeast India, patna definitely gets very cold in winters.
@@namitajimmy6737 u know actually I included Patna on the eastern side cuz I think it isn’t as cold compared to western region. Like I’m sure the average minimum of Patna even in coldest month doesn’t go below 5 and average max below 20. But u are correct when it gets cold wave it can get quite cold. But compare it to east Pakistan, Punjab, himachal where it gets way colder and western disturbance rains are way abundant. Maybe Patna is transitioning between Bengal and normal New Delhi climate. What do u think?
@@takshahilgandhara3605 Well in January Patnas Average High is 22.4°C, New Delhi is 20.4°C only 2°C difference. Same for Low Temperature Patnas is 9.3°C while New Delhi is 7.3°C. Plus bihar is still more vulnerable to cold waves than delhi. Winter Rainfall is still high in Delhi compared to patna. so yea
@@namitajimmy6737 well then how much difference does it have with Dhaka? I’m sure something like 2-3 degrees. So yah it is transitional between the Delhi and Dhaka weather. But compare Bihar to much further west into Punjab that’s where the difference starts to pile up.
3:54 well... i wouldnt say 'just above freezing'
God, please not an Oceanic, Humid Subtropical, or Continental climate. Hello doctor, where am I? *Budapest*
Lmao. Just look up "koppen climate Hungary" and you will see that it is mostly warm summer continental with some hot summer places aswell. And then, the area around budapest has dots of humid subtropical and I think even Cold steppes XD
Koppen: I just invented a new Climate Classification System! _Hungary has left the chat_
my ancestor are from China GuangDong and Fuzhou (4 season climate) 5th generation me living in South East Asia Malaysia (Tropical climate) still having traditional culture teaching kept about (4 season climate) - Although we don't used it ,but still recalled the fun and hardship living in 4 season, also for usefulness tool if we land again to the land of 4 season climate again. every 3 months is different season, is fun with festival every 3 months with different clothing fun ,but used a lot of money and big closet is needed very worst month to survived is winter, cold and hunger, whoever made it and survived that month is the blessed, some unable to make it will not met Chinese New Year, no new year for the family. during the spring and summer the sun will stay longer with us, yet the autum and winter months getting darker and depressed. Calender is the key of life, make sure no wrong count because we had to catched up the season change, math is vital... Anyway Anyhow , even living in Tropical region, we still enjoyed the fun loving 4 season climate in the movie and show we seen, is so enjoyable to watch people is having fun with every 3 months turned into new life, yet living in Tropical , sometimes is kinda boredom because the same thing you see again and again (rain or shine) (haze or flood)... is just very stoic personality will come to you.
Guangdong and fuzhou do not have the full four seasons, only the occasional snow every few years in the north
Thanks for sharing the Chinese perspective on seasons. Believe it or not, you're the first in almost 5 years to comment on this!
@@slifer0081 Is interesting back in the ancient times before global warming... the land actually do snow. Today seems global warming, things changed a lot. I had seen some cool looking old picture Hong Kong city covered with snow. Is so rare to see this old photo was captured, Hong Kong was so green and not full of building. Plus North Vietnam do had some snow is on going too. And it is proof my ancestors are from 4 season climate in the ancient times. Today if wanted to see the South China/North Vietnam to snow again should be very rare... only can check back their history building, that was once build to shelter from snow. And also the traditional food may had chance to trace in them about diet.
@Geodiode Global warming do really changed a lot. New generation getting less attention about their ancestor's lifestyle. South China/North Vietnam is a land that once snow. Historical building, traditional food give us a glanced about their diet, and fancy long thick floor dragging clothes. Hong Kong had some epic rare photo that do snow. Less building back then, is very lush green island. If it snow at South China/North Vietnam it become epic rare occasions today. Example of a typical 4 season climate lifestyle; 1. Eat with utensils. European (Spoon, Fork,Knife,Plate, fancy kitchen ware). Same goes to East Asia as well (Spoon,chopsticks, bowl,fancy kitchen were, do make noodles and dumplings steamer). Soup/stew is typical menu for us to fight cold weather, bye-bye sinus. We love to sit on warm chair and put hot served food on the table just to avoid cold butt intact the cold ground or spill hot soup/stew around the floor. 2. Clothes. See no different for European and East Asia Just let it be heavy duty, floor dragging dress, big and fluffy. (I wonder how this ancient times go toilet and wash cloth , my goodness !!!) 3. Built tough shelter to stay away from snow, and chimney is our home sweet home. 4. Pets: it seems dog rule out the most. Especially toy dog breed. Dog as companion for cold winter the fluffy long fur type. Their body is more warm than cats and bigger than cat in size. That's why we hug our pup for warmth. A natural warm bag. Both European and East Asian had plenty toy dog breed category. While Chihuahua is also a warm bag for the Mexican as well. *Notes-Chopsticks holder stretch until Vietnam. Although North China is super cold. But South China/North Vietnam is mild cold. So we will eat rice for diet and spicy food. Sort of like Tropical taste bud similar from the South East Asia countries. Based on my experienced, the migration Chinese community that born in Malaysia, do had a feeling being alienation sometimes, lifestyle was so huge different, culture shock in a sentence to describe. Is kind of hard for us to be Tropical people. Even i was the 5th generation, i still find gap to follow the local lifestyle, is misfit, some married the local aboriginal do also had misfit as well. Also vice versa, the local aboriginal also unable to cooperate the 4 season climate because they had been living too easy lifestyle (rain and shine not every 3 month high cost dress up) Example; when come to food. The local aboriginal people will cook cabbage with coconut milk or bamboo shoot cook with coconut milk or fish/chicken cook with coconut milk, yet for the Chinese is a dislike the taste of it ,is too milky coconut-y. Eating with bare hand is considered rude uncivilised act of disrespect to food, sit on the floor and eat is dirty due to dust. "Seems some of the teaching are from climate related traditional". When both Indian and aboriginal people see Chinese people hatred of bare hand eating and sit on floor to eat (they know we are very picky on standard). [for me i won't blamed them, is clean for tropical people, rain and shine wash off the dust of the ground, so is safe to sit on floor and eat, don't worry butt is not cold on ground, is warmth]. While the migration India had no problem to stay in tropical 'they are tropical people as well', Coconut is their lifestyle too, that's what make the Indian and the local aboriginal gang up together no issues at all , easy to adapt for them.
If a palm tree can’t survive in nyc it speaks volumes
Cover the Seto Inland Sea next!! Mediterranean climate in Japan, where trees such as citrus and olives can be grown without risk of frost.
There are some beautiful beaches and nature in this part of Japan, but I strongly doubt a dry summer wet winter precipitation pattern. Citrus doesn't require such a climate to grow.
It doesn't has a Mediterranean climate, has a humid subtropical climate cfa, with year round rain, but it does seem to show a summer peak, and a winter low.
@@Geodiode yep!! And citrus (oranges) originally originated from North East India!!, where are summers are very very wet.
If you can't grow sugarcane , bananas , mangoes and coconuts , it's not fit for human habitation ! 😉🏝
***don't make jokes about death threats***
Calling NYC subtropical is almost as absurd as calling Crimea subtropical.