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Some footage of the Arthur M Anderson is from / @1long2short@ucpfim9mo...
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Very professional of you to take your previous video down & reconsider the situation. I find that those unwilling to accept criticism or consider alternate options is a group largely populated by dishonest or insecure people. I certainly dont include yourself in either of the aforementioned groups. Well done.
Professional? Moral standards? Very good narrator? YES. @@evryhndlestakn
No thanks, they have been confirmed to mess with results for diversity reasons. MyHeritage are fraudsters.
Thank You for keeping an open,humble mind. I have a theory that I have not heard elsewhere, based on these facts. The owners, Northwestern Mutual Life Insurance Company, actually got the U.S. Coast Guard to increase the load line for the Edmund Fitzgerald three times - in 1969, 1971, and 1973 - allowing her to carry 4,000 tons more than she was originally designed&intended for. These changes allowed for 3 feet, 3.25 inches or about 1 meter less minimum freeboard overall. Because of that, the ship’s deck was only 11.5 feet above water and she was considerably overweight, according to her original intended specifications. This made the ship especially sluggish and slower to recover and decreased her buoyancy when facing the waves on that fateful November 10th. The Skipper had already said that she was never the same after that- if she fell off in a heavy head sea they would sometimes have to make a complete 360 Degree full circle turn to get back on course. She’d just wallow in the troughs between the waves and then the waves would keep pushing her off from recovering her heading. “Prior to the load-line increases she was said to be a ‘good riding ship’ but afterwards, the Edmund Fitzgerald became a sluggish ship with slower response&recovery times. Captain McSorley said he did not like the action of a ship he described as a ‘wiggling thing’ that scared him. Now, the Edmund Fitzgerald's bow hooked to one side or the other in heavy seas without recovering and made a groaning sound not heard on other ships.” This is what I believe probably happened, based on what I have already quoted and what else is known to have happened. After passing Caribou Island in that final storm- By 1530,she was already seriously listing at 20° to starboard and by 1610 she had lost even more freeboard as they failed to correct the list- by that point she was actually effectively sinking but they were going to try to soldier on to Whitefish Bay. At the time, the US Coast Guard had inadequate standards for the amount of freeboard that a ship could safely maintain. There were no devices,instruments or sensors for the crew to monitor the status of the ship&cargo holds as they slowly flooded with water- they could ONLY GUESS as the ship would sit lower… and lower… and lower. The lower she sat, the more vulnerable she became to the thirty-five(+) foot waves. The Coast Guard had no lifesaving personnel within any reasonable distance of the wreck site to help, even if there had been survivors. Watertight compartments were not required on Great Lakes ships prior to this sinking- nor was relatively straightforward instrumentation such as a fathometer to determine the depth of the water installed on the Fitzgerald… although her navigational equipment was considered “state-of-the-art”. However, that gear was all largely out of commission that night,anyway. The only way that the crew could know the depth was to throw a traditional lead-line overboard. No one was going on deck, so such readings were not going to happen in this raging icy storm. As mentioned in this video, American nautical charts in the area of the wreck were found to be in error- One of the shoals extended a mile further than was recorded on the charts. Like the Titanic, her loss led to a lot of changes in the Laws of the Lakes. Her sinking led to changes in Great Lakes shipping regulations and practices that included: mandatory survival suits, depth finders, positioning systems, increased freeboard and more frequent inspection of vessels. The USCG investigation of the Fitz's sinking resulted in 15 recommendations regarding: load lines, weathertight integrity, search&rescue capability, lifesaving equipment, crew training, loading manuals and even their own providing of weather&safety information to Masters of Great Lakes vessels. The NTSB's investigation resulted in 19 recommendations for the USCG, four recommendations for the American Bureau of Shipping and two recommendations for NOAA. Prior to the loss of the Fitz, such changes to the vessels themselves, their crews and their safe operation had been resisted as they were claimed to have represented “serious economic hardship to the owners” of various Corporate America entities that owned the Big Boats… “Economic hardships”, Indeed… The owners were some of the largest corporations in America! Back to the Fitz herself: Anyway… as also stated in this video, the Skipper had already ordered everyone off deck. It is generally accepted that some time right after her final radio communication at 1910, the rogue waves known as “The Three Sisters” crossed paths first with the Anderson and then with the Fitz at about the time that she was estimated to have gone down- but just how many Sisters were there? The Three Sisters are believed to sometimes combine to create two even larger waves and on rare occasion... one VERY large wave. Regardless of the details of that final convergence, the Fitz was riding lower than ever before... with a serious list. Considering her existing history of handling problems after her load line was raised those three times, I reckon that she would have broached,capsized and then broken up... possibly on impact with the bottom- instead of just nosing straight in, as some believe. Given her handling problems(and the nature of buoyancy/hydrodynamics), I seriously doubt that she would have headed straight for the bottom. In her originally specified load rating, her massive load would have held her low and steady but as she was now- the force of the final wave(s) with her increasing list and the lowest freeboard she had ever had would have simply resulted in her losing directional control and then capsizing as the waves carried her into a broach. There was also massive ice build-up on deck, which certainly didn’t help. It seems to me that this would be the path of least resistance for her instead of a clean nose dive straight into the bottom, considering her condition&history. Remember- the wave action that we see is a surface force. In this scenario, her stern would have risen up with the wave, diminishing control by lifting the rudder while the bow plunged and she would have ploughed&veered to port... rolling on over to starboard as her cargo shifted. The waves would accelerate her broach as they carried her on sideways and the cargo shifting would intensify as she capsized... it would all have happened very suddenly and would have put unimaginable stress on the entire vessel. The experience of her crew would have been even more unimaginable- thrown sideways in a capsizing vessel rolling over as she came to a virtual halt, her crew would have had no time to react... or even understand what was happening. They never even saw it coming. She was some 80,000,000 lbs. that night- Gone, just like that. Of course, only God Knows. So, that is only what I believe to be the most likely case scenario after considering this for years. At that time, the Arthur M. Anderson was 6 years older and she is still rolling today.... and she was almost 40 feet longer than the Fitz when she went down. If the Fitz had only stood down from that load and made it on in to overhaul and her scheduled lengthening, she’d most likely still be steaming today... there’s no telling how big she’d be by now. PS This is something that I wrote about all of the large bodies of water on our world,as One- be they salty or fresh. After all, if the Ice all melted then the big Lakes would merge&converge with the Ocean and all would be One. This is untitled, but it was written in memory of The Edmund Fitzgerald, The Arthur M. Anderson and all those onboard and involved that night. RIP, Shipmates. The sea is like God... Beautiful but not to be toyed with. Normally serene but unspeakably destructive to all who would mock. Capable of extreme benefit and experience to friends... ultimately merciless to enemies. Source of Life- Dealer of Death. Witness to man's greatest achievements, home to man's greatest mysteries. Divider of continents, a forge for all those who hold the Passion for the endless horizon… Rewarder of humility, punisher of pride. Expressed in a moment... Transcender of mortal existence. Holding the secrets of life... consuming and regenerating death into beauty. Playground to children, cemetary to navies. Home to the faithful, a barrier to the marauders... pounding the borders of the earth into Sand... where the Children of Men build their Castles, on the edge of Time.
@1:10 good slight! lmao get everyone arguing in the comments section to make your video relevant and go viral. I bet you do encourage us to!
Choosing to remove a video after community feedback and undertake a comprehensive re-make is a serious integrity move. Few KZheadrs hold themselves to that high a standard. Thanks for your diligence and superior content.
I agree. This sinking is a touchy subject for many in the Great Lakes region at least Michigan. We all grow up learning about it. I think he gave mention towards the end about how all the parties don't want the blame placed on them. Touchy might not be the right wording but people have strong feelings still about it.
Superior content. I see what you did there
@@robert48044 I'm from superior, the town the Edmund left from. My daughter is 12 and has already learned all about the Edmund Fitzgerald. I wonder if it will ever stop being taught about.
I agree one hundred percent, another youtuber Oceanliner Designs did the same thing in an excellent video about Titanic’s engines
I come from a long line of commercial fishermen .I grew up on the Oregon coast and learned about this ship.as a kid in the 80's I just taught my youngest daughter about the Fits .I recently moved to Pittsburgh and am immersing my self in everything maritime greatlakes. I believe it will be taught for years
My grandfather sailed the lakes for 14 years, including on the Fitzgerald from 70 to 74. My Aunt was born in 72, Mom was born in 74, so he took a job in the shipyards so he wasn't gone most of the year. Had alot of stories to tell about the lakes, many of them pretty terrifying. He said the waves used to come onto ship on the rear, ride the length of the deck, and plow into the pilot house. He always subscribed to the theory that the Fitz nose dived, hit the bottom, and then twisted in half. He knew most of the men on the Fitz that went down that night. Grandma said it was a pretty rough ordeal for him, on many levels.
With the observed damage I would agree
I have followed this for years. It’s been kind of an obsession actually. My theory of what happened is my own and not necessarily the view of everyone else. Nor does it mean that’s what happened. But this is my thoughts in short version. She was steaming along in the storm just fine until they lost both radars. Whilst in contact with the Anderson I believe she was closer to the 6 fathom shoal than they realised. Fully loaded and low in the water. I believe she struck bottom with quite a force and she hogged. Thus snapping the deck fence and fractured the hull. The sudden rushing in of the water blew the vent caps off. So from there on she was sinking. And to develop a list so quickly fits the theory. The crew manned the pumps but unfortunately couldn’t keep up with the incoming water. She continued through the storm for another 3 or 4 hours until she was so low in the water, that the waves rolling up her deck pushed her bow down so far that it couldn’t recover. So here’s the next part of my theory. As she went down, and this part I believe happened very very quickly, she nose dived into the bottom, and the damage to the forward part of the ship supports this theory.so as the bow digs in to the bottom the prop still turning torque twisted her over, I believe she broke at the fracture point where she hit the shoal, and the 200 foot mid section disintegrated. By this time the stern is inverted and sank like a stone . Trapping most of the crew in the accommodation area. They had no chance of escape. I believe the actual sinking was extremely quick and almost instant. R.I.P to the 29 on board. May you all rest in eternal peace.
@johnkirby8849 I had similar theory. I think the bow went under a wave and never able to recover and the engine drove her to the bottom. The part that doesn't fit the theory from everything I could find, divers couldn't find any scrape marks on the shoal. I was 10 years old at the time! I have always been fascinated with the Fitz sinking.
good friend of mines grand father was suposed to be sailing on the fitz,,and he decided to stay home this trip to do some work at home. lucky guy,,and lucky for my friend or she would never have been born. she said he was reallly freaked out about it for the rest of his life.
I'm no expert. But looking at the wreckage, I agree with your grandfather. Sure looks like she went down in one piece and then broke with the hard impact. The two parts of the ship are fairly close together. If she had split on the surface, the parts would likely not be so close together. It is the old adage called "Ocaam's Razor." The most obvious explanation is most often the correct one.
It's mind blowing that the Arthur M Anderson is still in service today.
Fresh water does wonders for vessel life expectancy.
Hell, that is living history.
The Gordon Lightfoot song as well as the footage was very haunting, l felt so sad l was in tears
It is floating proof of the term "They don't make em' like they used too". Sadly ALOT of that eras ships had some or ALOT of bad, brittle steel that took far too many.
When I was working on the Bob-Lo ships in the 80's and 90's there were a few ships from 1890's and 1900's in service still. Ours were 1902 and 1910.
To say: " okay I get your point of view, I'll take your comments on board and re do this video" marks you out as someone to watch further. I don't subscribe often, but your humility and teachability commend you . To be able to look at a situation from multiple angles and adapt your point of view is a mark of maturity.
I grew up in Toledo Ohio and my dad was a shipkeeper for ASC. It amazes me that so many more of these freighters haven’t gone down. Every winter they come into Toledo and lay up for the winter and most if not all of them would have to have the bottoms welded back together as they’d constantly split. Instead of retiring these old freighters they just continue welding them. I’ve heard atleast 3 captains and chiefs say that the company would rather pay out a wrongful death suit than to replace the ship because it was cheaper. But man did I love staying up on these big boats throughout the winter and summers when they’d be layed up throughout the year. Nothing more relaxing than throwing a mattress down on the floor of the pilot house, crank the ac, and listen to the radio traffic and watch the thunderstorms. 🌩️ I really miss it though.
Climbing up on them and jumping off before the cops could catch you was so much fun when I was growing up in Ontario. The Sir James Dunn was retired in my hometown and my friends could often be found "down at the Dunn".
@@richardstever3242 youth 😊
Go back to those days bro...Just quit your job and leave your house and go to the ship and chill there for as long as you can
@@thedude3620 I keep trying to back to the 'good old days", but the sun goes down, the rains come and the buzz fades away...dammit!
Speculation.......who knows ? Probably a combination of all the factors.
R.I.P Gordon Lightfoot and the 29 sailors who were lost
I did wonder if anyone else made this connection!
He played at the Port McNicol Inn several times but I was too young to get in. "I'm going to play you a song in the key of Bm"..."it was just the same old chords played with a capo on, but the people thought something really special was happening so I just went along with it". Greetings from Ontario
@@richardstever3242 ayyy a fellow ontarian
@@Megabob777 I love the lakes, especially my home waters of Georgian Bay. The Arthur M Anderson was dressed up as the Fitzgerald for a movie and docked at Tiffin Elevator in Midland.
@@richardstever3242 man you definitely know a lot more about great lakes shipping than I do lol, wish i knew more tbh
I worked at a medical supply store in Brainerd with someone from Castle Danger near Two Harbors. He said his brother sailed on the Fitz around 1973 and after a short time, “Couldn’t wait to get off that death trap.” The ship had had problems with hogging from what I’ve read. I also believe it’s a combination of things as not one of the theories by themselves explain everything.
I am a Great Lakes Sailor. Weather can turn a calm lake, into a washing machine. The Fitz actually had a double bottom. They filled the bottom with water when empty to make it ride smoother. When loaded, it's empty. If they hit the schoal, it could have filled the bottom. That would have allowed them to keep going with the pumps running. The "3 sisters" hit the first one, followed closely by the 2nd and 3rd. It's brutal!
What boat do you work on? I worked on the tug boat Undaunted, and also worked on the Oberstar for a time.
I've been out on Lake Ontario, a calm lake compared to Superior, many times and it can get rough. We call them lakes but they're really inland seas with most of the same effects a sea experiences.
@@MrBill34786 I solo sail a 34 foot sailboat! Been a Great Lakes sailor, since 1982. I soloed a 41 footer when I was 13, from Muskegon to Chicago. Don't think anyone would allow that now a days!
I believe you. As once they encountered the three sisters. It was all over for them. It broke the ship in half and sank so fast. Not even a call went out. They never had time to send one..
A half hour Waterline Stories to start off the weekend, most excellent. Love the longer form videos, keep it up!
Going into an ad read is WILD
Fully agree 👍
❤ the fact tht he took down older video to improve 👍 😊 Great job folks. Love all but longer is better❤ 👋 hello and thank you from southern Canada 🇨🇦
She was a beautiful monster Ol Fitzgerald😢 Sad tragedy. Here one minute, gone the next 😞
Hope you enjoyed👍🏻
I think it's brilliant that this guy has read people's comments, looked into it further and floated other theories. Responding to the comments is a great thing to do!
It's interesting. No matter how much I research, the collective knowledge of this audience is incredible. I always learn more about an incident after I post a video from the comments.
9:47 Theory 1: Poor maintenance 11:16 Theory 2: Overloaded 12:47 Theory 3: Deck hatches insecure 16:53 Theory 4: Lost vent covers 17:52 Theory 5: Hull damage from scraping on shoal 21:39 Theory 6: The Three Sisters
This comment: the lords work
I personally think it’s 12346 combined
Captain of the Anderson said there was a double rogue wave, I hate when people overlook the shoal hitting because the Anderson survived the double wave, the Fitz had to have hit bottom beforehand.
@@saucejohnson9862 not necessarily. With the keel loose the way it was, the ship could have sprung leaks in the belly without grounding. There were several lake freighters that broke in two without grounding due to the same issue. A big problem with the Fitz was how much it would flex and twist from side to side, and worked alot of things loose, including the keel. If I recall correctly, there were only 3 or 4 bulkheads in the cargo hold of the Fitz, and it was much less laterally stable than the Anderson and most other ships of its size.
I don’t buy the loose hatch cleats theory. My opinion is she bottomed out which caused a stress fracture and that’s why she lost a fence rail. She took on so much water that a rogue wave caused that water to shift forward and push the cargo all towards to the bow. She nosed dived within seconds and once the bow hit bottom, there was still 200’ of stern section sticking out of the water, that’s when she broke apart. Those poor men didn’t stand a chance to send a mayday call. It happened far too fast.
I always liked the idea of a rogue wave, but I think it's a combination of factors. The welds, the keel separating, and a large wave. Given she was the first of her type to use compartmentalised construction, it might not have been as strong as later ships using that method. She must have gone down quickly that there was no mayday.
As they say, safety standards are written in blood...
They did a quick repair of the Fitzgerald not long before its fatal voyage. They were quick cheap welds on the spine of the ship. Plus several bulk head welds. The ship clearly had a lot of wear and tear.
I'm with you on that one.
I'm not a mariner, I don't even swim well, but i enjoy your content and how carefully and considerately you present these stories Thank you.
The best mariners don't swim well...
Many of the Captains don't have drivers licenses either.
Whatever theory or combined theories that would explain how the Edmund Fitzgerald sank so quickly is probably correct. I think of Captain McSorely (sp?) being on the bridge of the Edmund Fitzgerald in that dire situation. He had to be very close to a radio or phone. However, he didn't even have a chance to say that his ship was sinking. That's how fast it happened. That's telltale in and of itself. Could it be that one or both of those 30'-35' waves that Captain Cooper of the Anderson reported somehow caused the bow of the Edmund Fitzgerald to dip below the surface of the water and then pointing downward she just keep right on going to the bottom as if it was swallowed by the heavy seas? That combined with the fact that she was listing and had already taken in a lot of water makes sense to me as to why the Edmund Fitzgerald not only sank but did so very suddenly and rapidly. Great video! Very no-nonsense, clear and to the point!
My grandfather was on the Anderson that night! As he told me the fitz was picked up from the stern by the first wave of the three sister's and was driven into the lake bed!! The subsequent 2 other waves swamped the rest of the ship and the bow never came out of the first wave, cheers
That is exactly what my late father told me he suspected the cause of the sinking to be. It's never been a popular theory, But I've always thought it might be the correct one.
why is it broken in two though?
Not many people realize the ship was 200 feet longer than the depth of the water it sank in…so that’s a possibility
Ok supposed she took a nose dive where then is the ore that should have slid to the bow? They have looked in the bow cargo holds and they are empty
@@Roadrunner4447 well the ship is split in two and half of it is upside down. …and in a larger sense, every last ounce is at the bottom of the lake somewhere
I admire you for saying that you could do better and you did! great job man, thanks for sharing with us all this research you did
Ever since I found this Channel about 6 months ago I absolutely adore watching all of the videos and catching up on all the other videos. As much as I want to I simply cannot watch this video. My parents had just gotten married and he sailed on the lakes for a job. I can tell you she was so scared because at that time they didn't know who had gone down. My dad sailed the Munson that year but he knew every man on board the Fitz. I've heard the stories from him over the years and the last words anyone ever heard from them "We're holding our own" has always been gut wrenching. One thing I can say is the chief mate would NEVER have sailed unless everyone single hatch was dogged securely. He was well known for that on every trip not just the last one. I have no doubt that he double checked every one of those hatches especially because they knew what weather they had. All the years my dad sailed I hated Novembers the most. November Witches are no joke and I was worried every time. I wish I could watch this episode but I just can't. It's just too close to home. Even now that my dad retired it's still hard. I just know all about the Fitz and hate to have reminders even all these years later. I am looking forward to next video though.
The Great Lakes Shipwreck Museum located at Michigan's Whitefish Point Light-Station is a must see for anyone interested in the loss of the Edmund Fitzgerald or any of the other hundreds of ships lost along the Lake Superior Shipwreck Coast. My wife and I finally made it to the museum last year and were deeply moved by the displays there, especially of the Edmund Fitzgerald's ship's bell. It was a both gratifying and poignant visit there. Gratifying in that as a young man I got to meet Phil Nuytten, the inventor of the "Newtsuit" several times and actually listened to him ponder on the idea of a hard shell exo diving suit before he finally invented it in 1979. His Newtsuit was used to explore the wreck of the Edmund Fitzgerald. Poignant in that there is an observation platform from which, if the weather had allowed the lights of the Edmund Fitzgerald would have been visible from Whitefish Point just before it sank.
I’d be willing to bet my bottom dollar that the keel issue, combined with the three sisters waves, and the fact that it had taken on MORE weight from water intrusion is probably what did her in .. if they had loaded the ship to over its freeboard would allow , then MORE weight in the form of water got in, and if the fitz hit the three sisters, it would have overcome the ships ability to stay together with the broken keel, and it would’ve broke Fitzgeralds back and that’s why she disappeared soo fast and is lying in two pieces on the bottom .. the life rafts being torn and ripped from the derricks is a good sign that the three sisters did in fact hit the fitz.. the Anderson was able to survive the three sisters because her keel was still fully intact, but even she sustained substantial deck damage from them .. I don’t believe the 6 fathom shoal had anything to do with it.. The two sections are two far apart for it to have broken up when it hit the sea floor .. it broke apart at the surface and hydrodynamic forces caused them to separate fairly far apart, much like the titanic
A broken back would also be in line with the "loose railing" mentioned on radio to the Andersen
Completely incorrect about the sinking... why is the Fitzgerald the only ship with such extensive damage to the midsection, and why is the length of missing midsection equal to the difference between the length of the vessel and the depth of water she rests in (~200ft)? Why do you say the sections are too far apart when they are actually CLOSER together than other wrecks of lakers that are confirmed to have broken in two on the surface? Why did McSorley report taking on a list AFTER passing Six Fathom Shoal and not before if there is no causal link?
@@br-v388 The fact that all of the experts agree that the ship would have sunk very soon after hitting the shoals seems to make it the cause unlikely.
Great presentation. You know the Birkenhead makes you proud, Shackleton & the Endurance is proof of the best in us but that picture of the Fitzgerald at the bottom of the lake makes you understand and feel the personification of ships. She looks like she suffered . And it's heartbreaking to look at somehow.
Kudos and mad respect for listening to the comments, and making constructive content out of it! I wasn't involved, but it's something you don't see every day anymore people being open minded to feedback.
My cousin was on Fitz, and my other cousin was on the ship behind it . Never saw it go down .
Having worked in the oil industry for almost 25 years (only 4 years offshore) my experience is disasters tend to be caused by a multiplying effect. Generally systems are designed to cope with several issues but every now and then you will get more that can be planned for without crazy expenditure and many people watching these videos will know companies cut corners often because of government regulation. It's always the little guys that get screwed.
You really should talk to Captain Darrell Walton about the Big Fitz" he is also an expert on great lakes shipping
Thank you for updating your episode on the Edmund Fitzgerald. I appreciate the additional context and discussion of the many possibilities of what could have happened.
As someone who is from Michigan and fascinated by shipwrecks, it always crazy to think about how nasty these lakes can get. I dont think people outside of the greatlakes region realizes how absolutely insane the waves and weather can get on the great lakes. Its like the north or bering sea's.
You definitely learn to respect the lakes. I'm also from Michigan
If you look at the bow you’ll see the visor around the windows. We know that there was reports of rogue waves. The steel visor around the windows is bent down further; like a Ruffles chip. She got bowed by one of the waves and the second one coming on she went straight in to and to the bottom, her bow strikes the bottom under propulsion; the stern breaks off from the stress.
basically, yeah that's the waves doing her in. bad hatches are another, wet shifting cargo causing the list. A heavy bow can cause hogging over the crest of a wave and that explains the broken railing. Then come the three witches. Bow in a trough, stern raised up, and the second wave sends her nose to the bottom. I think the sinking really came as a shock it was so fast.
the 3 sisters drove the ship down, as the fist wave ran up her deck it drove the bow down, then the second wave lifted the stern and the screws just drove her to the bottom with the ship being longer then the depth when the bow hit bottom the stern broke off the center of the ship just desinagrated. Cpt Cooper said they were the biggest waves he had ever seen. Thanks for the video. 💚💙👍👍👏👏👏
I know they say 3 sisters but the captain of the Anderson said two rouge waves and huge up to 50 ft high and he knew those two waves heading towards the Fitz would do her in with the list ice build up from freezing rain they said they never found proof that it scraped the reef but being so heavy with a list and even the normal seas were up around 20 footers but he said when he did his interview when it happened that those two rouge waves were massive took her down fast makes most sense and he was right there why they didn't listen to him more when a very experienced captain says he was hit by these waves and they were heading towards a ship already having trouble he knew what happened I've been on Superior and it's beautiful on the water and it can change so fast or we would get hit by a big roller we called them they come out of nowhere and Superior is famous for its big rollers even in Summer time the water is a wake up when you jump in so cold they say most of the crew are still in their ship and the cold prevents them from floating up and keeps them in almost same condition even now so many years ago so bad but sorry got off topic but agree with you and captain from Anderson that those waves were the finishing swamping it rip
I am out of breath reading this.....punctuation?!?! 😊
@@johnphillips4342 sorry.. 😎
It could very well be a combination of a few of the theories. I've been in a big storm on Superior on an oil tanker. The 3 sisters were massive waves.
The wreck needs to be dived on again. The new technology will certainly answer sinking theory 1-5. There is also a body on the lake bottom that was never recovered.
The family dont want it recovered. when Fred Shannon dived on the wreck back in the '90s or 2000s, whenever the last expedition to the wreck was, and filmed the body, he showed it to the US Coast guard the Canadian Coast guard and Oglebay Norton. They chose not to retrieve it at the request of the families who wanted it left down there. To my knowledge the families didn't even request to view the footage. It is a person laying on the seafloor with debris on top of them, wearing a cork style life jacket. He is located somewhere just off the starboard bow pinned under debris on the lake floor
@@mikeprimm4077 I have seen the photos. They can leave their loved ones there. If there is a way to definitively determine what happened that led to the sinking should be explored.
How will they investigate the shoal theory with two hundred feet of midsection completely obliterated?
@@br-v388 high speed computer simulation and AI.
@mikeprimm4077 I believe there were other bodies in state room and in forward steering pilot house.. I think they should bring them up and identify but families don't want that.
I grew up in Windsor, across from Detroit on the Detroit River. I remember as kid watching the ships go by. I distinctly remember the Arthur M because of the loader on deck, and remember the Fitz because it was a monster of a ship. Been to Whitefish Bay and I’ve boated on Lake Superior. Even on a nice day, it is an intimidating body of water.
Another fact not usually mentioned: The Fitz was a weather reporting ship, and was required to make reports regularly every 6 hours. On Nov 10, she made her 7 AM report, but did NOT make her 1 pm report. To not do this tells me there was an urgent problem going on, that required the captain's and deck officer's attention. The ship would have been near Otter Head, preparing to turn to the southeast. I think theories 1 & 2 are the primary cause,, especially the loose keel, that worked itself more loose as the ship worked in the heavy seas. Theory 5 comes in as well - they made their damage report to the Anderson immediately after exiting the shallow waters north of Caribou Island. Something serious must have happened while in the shallows. The lower freeboard, combined with even more loss of freeboard from the ship taking on water via the loose keel, caused her to scrape bottom, probably on six fathom shoal. It occurred below the lost vent caps, and the ship's hogging at that time caused the fence rail to tighten beyond its limits and snap. The vent caps were lost either by the recoil of the snapped fence cable, the internal pressure in the ballast tanks from the impact blowing them off, or both. The grounding punctured a hole in the ballast tanks (probably 2 of them, since 2 caps were lost) but did not puncture the cargo hold. However, the hole was large enough to overcome the pump's ability too remove the water. The 2 ballast tanks quickly flooded, and this ship took an immediate list.
According to Cooper, what he thinks happened is that the ship was taking on water from the vents, and probably mildly hit bottom on the shoals. She was riding low and listing, but not in immediate danger of sinking and in better weather would have limped home. Then she got hit by the three sisters which had hit the Anderson. The first one probably swamped the deck, second one probably fully dunked the ship, at which point with a list and the whole ship underwater top to bottom, the ship's screw could have propelled it into the ground with force like a diving submarine(this is called breaking deep), breaking her in half as she hit the lakebed. It couldn't be the waves alone, she was in trouble prior and the Anderson handled them. But it also couldn't just be damage prior, if they were leaking bad enough they were in immediate danger of sinking they'd have called for help or indicated trouble. The ship was damaged, but limping, and the rogue waves finished her off.
What a wild ride of a video. Great watch. Thanks!
Mad respect for the re-do!!
I strongly believe that a rogue wave got her, since the bridge visor is smashed down, she literally vanished in an instant, and there was another ship like her that stayed afloat for a while after breaking up.
As always brilliantly told…..I’ve mentioned before but love the visual side of your stories as much as your narration, the animation etc is brilliant, all helps me understand what’s going on….thanks so much! ❤
I’ve watched quite a few videos about this sinking.. I was really happy to see you put up another video about it but.. always more to learn and your story telling abilities always have me dialed in till the end..
The quality of your information and storytelling is unmatched! Super informative and entertaining to watch thank you!! Also huge respect for redoing the video, we'll watch this one too no worries HAHA 🖤
Thank you for doing such an excellent job on this video. The research you did for this video actually produced some information as well as photographs and home movies I had never seen before. Not many people admit when they could have done better. You did. Rock on!
Very informative.I appreciate your work!
Yep. A single cause didn't sink the ship. It would have been multiple problems culminating in a catastrophic event. Driving her fast to out run the storm and get ahead of the other ship, probably began the cascade of events. She didn't hit any shoal, just hitting waves at 5 or 6 knots faster than the other ship was all it took as the wind began shifting 180 degrees and the seas state became larger and more confused. The first indication of trouble was when they observed damage to deck fittings from wave action and were taking on water to the extent that they had both pumps running. That simple bit of information was the death knell.... Later they begin to lose radar and electronics. They developed a list which indicates that the pumps are not keeping up with water ingress, or that the bilge piping/bilgecocks/strainers were malfunctioning and some areas could not be pumped. The fact she began taking water on in such heavy seas doomed her. Any ship that begins taking on water in heavy seas is now in a countdown to destruction. It doesn't get better. It only gets worse until catastrophe.
Always appreciate coverage of the Great Lakes, you've definitely upped your game, well done! It's still crazy seeing the Arthur M. Anderson in service, I got some beautiful footage when she passed Mackinaw. Whitefish Point is really pretty and it sucks seeing how close to safety the Fitzgerald was
Thanks, I really appreciate that
Fitz was built when load limits were at a specific number. The load limits were increased, I believe more than once. Each increase of load limit meant the boat sat lower in the water. The profit motive/greed sank the Fitz, it had to carry loads it hadn’t been designed to carry, which it did successfully, until it had to do it in an excessively heavy a gale.
Hot diggity dog! You made a video, read comments from fans about how it could have been better, and took that video down so you could make a better one? You’re one of the best on here!
It’s the quality of the hull itself that was the primary problem. Several related ships all broke their backs in similar storms, all due to the relatively poor quality of iron used to make their hulls. This is almost certainly what actually sank the EF, but poor deck management and back luck with waves no doubt put them in such a fateful position.
Yup, lots more documentation and evidence of fatigue type hull failures now especially in colder temperatures.
Which related vessels would those be? The Fitz' only sister ship, the Arthur B Homer was laid up and scrapped due to economic reasons, not structural problems. The Herbert C. Jackson was built by GLEW with the same steel and construction techniques and sails to this day.
I’ve heard that also: poor quality of iron combined with low temperatures
"brick immortar," has another great video on this... another great channel. This channel is top top quality too.
Amazing that after all these years, the Fitz is still talked about so vigorously. One thing not mentioned about the shoal grounding theory is Captain Cooper's statement that he got a call from McSorley not long after the Fitz passed over Six Fathom, stating that he had 'a fence rail down, a starboard list, and a couple of vents missing'. Remember, this was not long after passing through Six Fathom shoal. That would make it seem that SOMETHING happened as they passed over the area. Just my humble opinion.
Thank you for revisiting this.
Love your videos, keep up the good work
In so far as I'm aware, I'd heard that the hatch covers, no matter how heavy, can simply implode with a strong enough rogue wave rolling over them, noting theres effectively a void underneath the cover for the cargo (imagine tons of freezing water gushing in, rogue wave type scenario totallly swallowing the bow of the ship). Perhaps being weakened by a lack of tightly fastened hatch covers, poor welding (wasnt she expanded to fit more cargo in her hull?), and a policy of pushing boundaries to satiate company profits (i think this was a last minute trip as the company wanted to cash in on te last un of the season). Agreed it was mostly the weather though, I hope those poor souls didn't suffer.
The boat book by Carl feather is about the hulett unloaders and one of the guys talked to a guy on the Fitzgerald who stated they would never come back and that rivets were loose
What a tragic story very well explained good video as always
First time watching your channel, won't be the last.grew up in Michigan.spent a lot of time on or near the Big lakes.saw the Fitz pass thru the Soo Locks a couple of times.big, gorgeous ship.just stunned me when they announced the tragedy.thanks for your thorough and honest video.
Excellent analysis mate - keep up the good work!
👌🏻
Great work!
Again you keep upping your game brother - loving your work! You have a mature and knowledgeable voice that’s perfect for this content
Thanks, I really appreciate that
I am by no means an expert, more of an extreme fascination because of Gordon Lightfoot’s haunting song. I remember when it sank, along with Harry Reasoner’s reporting. If I had to wager a guess, I’d say it was a combination of things. Literally and figuratively it was the perfect storm. The keel issue wasn’t something I was totally unaware of. The railing being down is an indication of flexing of the ship. The fact that it appears it stayed down to indicates the ship was fatally broken. The Three Sisters as it’s described finished off the great ship and pushed them under. No bodies, only pieces of wrenched away life boats and jackets. It’s anybody’s guess as to what happened. We do know that whatever happened to the ship, it was swift and overwhelming. It just disappeared from the Anderson’s radar. Everything started out so normally and within 24 hours dissolved into a great mystery. I dare say unless someone is allowed to go down and thoroughly investigate the rack, the hatches that they can at least see the ends of the bow and the sterns keel it’s, it’s really hard to say. Not to minimize either of these events, but will have to put it up there with JFK‘s assassination, and the sinking of the Edmund Fitzgerald. No one seems to really have all the answers. Great video I can’t thank you enough.
The Arthur M. Anderson wasn’t a self unloader in 1975. It was 767’ at that time though, but not a self unloader until 1981.
Great episode! It takes a real man to admit and correct his own mistakes. 👍
eyyyyyyyyy always love a video drop from you boss, lets GOOOOOO
The state room on that ship was spectacular and the guests cabins too so plush and luxurious
Thanks for showing the hull lay-up. Good to see the inside structure-
Well researched and presented.
This is the most impressive and informative description about the Edmond Fitzgerald that I have yet found. Thankyou and most excellent!
The fact that the vessel was found in two pieces suggests that faulted construction (welds) and extreme weather were to blame .. though this is only an opinion.
Yup, lots more documentation and evidence of fatigue type hull failures now especially in colder temperatures.
Excellent presentation
Good job man 👏🏻
Dude this was a great vid!!!
Thanks 👌🏻
@@waterlinestories absolutely!!!!
A quality creator. Superior is a beautiful lake, I recommend a visit if you have the means. It's interesting to note that diving to the wreck is no longer allowed. Lax maintenance is my guess but without further information it is impossible to verify, whatever the cause.
Desecration of the dead & trophy-hunters are appropriately why you can't dive the EF.
Been watching for about a year and am always entertained and learning something here. I’ll always be a fan coming to watch. Keep it up.
Thanks. That means a lot to hear from someone who's been around since the start
Probably the most in depth video I've seen in a long time
I’ve lived in the Great Lakes region my whole life and have read quite a few on books the Fitzgerald and related subjects. I believe in the death of a thousand cuts theory with battered hatches, lost vent covers etc. slowly letting in water and lowering the ship until one or more large waves drove her bow under without any reserve buoyancy to bring it up again
Once again, very nice vid.
Loved this
All the theories combined seem a logical explanation, the many factors compounded ontop of eachother until the ships structural integrity catastrophically failed.
I saw the Arthur M Anderson at the Sault locks last September!
Biggest clue is there was no mayday call. From one wave to the next she was gone. I think she split in half on the surface and plunged to the bottom in a second. Keel welds and possible overloading.
Splinting in half on the surface doesn't fit the evidence. The two halves are to close together on the bottom to have split on the surface. The would have sunk at different speeds and ended up pointed in different directions and father apart.
Thank you for a great story
👍🏻
It has always seemed like it was hushed up and closed off in a hurry which to me only means one thing.....money!
If they had made, what seemed to be minor, contact with a shoal, the Captain wouldn't necessarily broadcast that error over the radio. He would only do so if he thought that his ship was damaged and in danger. Making that announcement would bring additional inspections, bring heat from his employer and possibly effect his retirement bonuses. If it was to, as you mentioned, coincide with the hit of a large wave. Its possible that would would question if he'd made contact at all, adding to hi reluctance to put it over the air. I still agree that it was likely a combination of things that lead to the sinking. Maybe an already weakened keel. Maybe repeated beatings from large waves. Its really hard to say at this point. I have no doubt that if the Captain thought he was in danger of sinking, he would have radioed it out. Whatever else it was, it seems obvious that the keel final broke free. that put all the stress on the hull. It would have only taken moments for the strength of the hull plates to be over whelmed. It would have gone from heavy flooding to diving to the bottom, in pieces, in meer seconds. I do find it suspicious that the area was declared off limits from diving, while there were still so many questions about the accident.
I too think mcsorley and most of the crew knew they were in trouble and were doing what they could. The Chief surely would have known. Too rough to launch lifeboats, sheer rock and crashing waves to the east. The only option they had was to get into whitefish bay and beach it on the sand bottom there and be heros. Anything else was a certain death.
Excellent presentation! Easy to follow, new facts and those previously known, a host who allowed us to enjoy the video with his comments... 10 out of 10.
former great lakes sailor here...and this a good job on this vidieo...
Excellent video and very thought provoking. New sub here.
Love the content. Truly appreciate your honesty and redoing a well thought out video. Our beloved Edmund Fitzgerald deserved this, thank you
Fantastic summary of such a tragic event. God rest those souls.
👍🏻
Very professional! I admire :)
Great video,thank you.
Just found your channel........outstanding content 👏👏SUBSCRIBED
Thanks, I really appreciate that
Just got through a scary few days with my health, this came at the perfect time
It's been a white since I watched one of your videos, this one was amazing as always. As was your first Video on the EFG, there was no need to take it down😉 Many greetings from Würzburg Paul, hope you and the family are doing well :)
In 2010, I was in Duluth Minnesota and saw Arthur Anderson coming to port . People on shore applauded the ship when they came in . I'm sure people remember them going to look for the Edmond Fitzgerald . In bad weather risking their own lives . ❤
Shore maintenance reported a loose keel. Then the sunken vessel is found in two pieces where it broke in half about amidships. My conclusion: overstress of an uncorrected compromised hull causing catastrophic hogging and sagging in the extreme seastate. If the hull lost its structural stiffness in the final voyage that could also result in cargo hatch failure due to flexing prior to hull failure.
Good job
Excellent video. Well done
I am used to big maritime disasters but it is mind boggling that this can happen on a LAKE...
It's a inland ocean.
If you have ever seen lake Superior you would notice that it looks a whole lot like an ocean!
@@scottbutkowski5803 No sadly. I visited US as a kid. Chicago, so lake Michigan.
@@KlaunFuhrer-du7fr Greetings from Tucson, Arizona. Most of my early life was been spent on the eastern seaboard, And then in the midwest.( Minnesota.) Now I live in a desert. The first time I stood on the shores of Lake Superior, My mind just could not accept that this was a "Lake" I was standing on. I grew up on the Atlantic Ocean, And Lake Superior seemed every bit as big to from the shore! It seemed every bit as large. As far as I'm concerned, It is!
@@scottbutkowski5803 Imagine Baikal lake even smaller surface area holds more water than all great lakes combined...
This video is a benchmark in research and objective research. Kudos for your efforts, and a brilliant presentation. Thought provoking to say the least!
Thanks, I really appreciate that. 👍🏻
Excellent analysis 👍
I heard a variant of the bottoming out theory. It involves the strength and viscosity of water. There is a point at which water becomes as hard as concrete if it can’t get out of the way fast enough. It’s possible they took damage from the shoals without actually making contact with the rocks. I also heard the vent covers that were missing led to ballast tanks, which could point to the tanks being crushed. The flexing of such an event could also explain the railing. The middle 1/3 of the ship is folded under the rest of the wreck, and the forward section ends right about at those vents, indicating a weakness there.