How To Build DML Panel Speakers with Hidden Wall Mounts Fully Suspended
Dayton Audio Exciter shown in video: amzn.to/2XU07lF
No visible mounts, no rigid contact, no swinging on long strings, no loss of floor space. See how to build your own Wall Mounted DML or flat panel speakers with full audio suspension. These DML (Distributed Mode Loudspeakers) panel speakers are fully suspended on hidden wall mounts giving superior audio quality without sacrificing aesthetics.
-Exciter placement, see NOTE-1 BELOW.
-Distance from wall, NOTE-2 BELOW.
To Get the Job Done:
Dayton Audio Exciter shown in video (25mm 24W 4-Ohm): amzn.to/2EAPCxf
Dayton Exciter (32mm 40W 4-Ohm QUAD Feet): amzn.to/2UkiCgE
Dayton Exciter (32mm 40W 4-Ohm): amzn.to/2Ymqeo5
Dayton Exciter (25mm 20W 4-Ohm): amzn.to/3yNjeP8
Dayton Exciter (25mm 20W 4-Ohm Vented): amzn.to/3fdP1Rr
Dayton Exciter (32mm 10W 8-Ohm): amzn.to/3fIVtyX
Dayton Exciter 10W 8-Ohm PAIR (2): amzn.to/3bQao9r
5/32 x 2" Cotter Pins Shown in Video (10-Pack): amzn.to/35ivmeA
1/8 x 2" cotter pins (easier to bend than the ones in video): amzn.to/32qiPTb
Glue Gun w/Glue Sticks: amzn.to/3U9kPbA
The sander in the video: amzn.to/2XV1znz
Cheaper sander: amzn.to/33TlHKJ
Assorted sand paper: amzn.to/30T0y1w
Assorted Sanding Blocks: amzn.to/33SIruf
3M 2-sided adhesive tape: amzn.to/3u9xphw
Other Things to consider:
Polk Audio PSW10 Subwoofer (Good Reviews) Pre-Ins (self-powered) or speaker line inputs: amzn.to/3nfAJ3N
Well-Reviewed Bluetooth Amps:
Bluetooth 5.0 Amp 2-Channel: amzn.to/3jKsQH3
Bluetooth 5.0 Amp w/SUB Out 2.1 50W+50W +100W: amzn.to/2VWRFnO
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Power Supply (19V) For Above Bluetooth Amps: amzn.to/3PeLJ2x
Tube Amp Bluetooth 5.0 50W+50W w/SUB Pre-Out & Optical Input: amzn.to/3p1N5i8
Tube Amp Bluetooth 5.0 160W+160W w/SUB Pre-Out: amzn.to/3B9RF2v
Deadbolt Gold Plated Banana Plugs
-12-Pairs: amzn.to/3EY0DTa
-5-Pairs: amzn.to/3sa5ixO
Spade Connectors: amzn.to/3Owwe2g
PROTECTIVE GEAR:
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Video Index:
0:20 Final Product Suspended on Wall
1:10 Foam Board
1:20 Marking and Cutting Rounded Corners
1:40 Sanding Corners with Palm Sander
2:03 Hand Sanding Edges and Surface
2:29 Painting w/Latex paint to match wall
2:51 Dayton Audio Exciters
3:07 Selecting and Preparing the Cotter Pins as Mounting Pins
3:39 Laying Out Mounting Pin Locations
4:10 Drilling holes for Mounting Pins
5:02 Injecting Adhesive to Anchor mounting Pins
5:38 Attaching Exciter
5:53 Selecting Material for Wall Mounts
6:26 Tying the Hanging Loop
6:45 Tying Lower Suspension Line
7:21 Mounts on The wall
7:27 Bending the upper Mounting Pins
7:48 Hanging the Panel
8:16 Checking Panel Wall Spacing after bending Mounting Pin
8:32 Sound Comparison
Musical Thanks to: Doug Maxwell
Song Title: Bellissimo
Genre: Classical
Mood: Dramatic
Video Link: • Video
NOTE-1 BELOW: This video shows how this mounting system works for panels with 2/5- 3/5 mounted exciters & panels with centered exciters. For best results, single speaker channels should have exciters mounted at the 2/5 - 3/5 location for each speaker (4:09). Dual speaker channels should have one speaker with a 2/5 - 3/5 mounted exciter and the second speaker on that same channel with a centered Exciter (4:07). Thanks to Tech Ingredients for The World's Best Speakers.
NOTE-2 BELOW: Like any sound emitter, these transmit quite different at surface contact than with more distance from surface. I noticed significant variations from 1 to 2.5 inches from wall surface to back of DML panel. Changes certainly continue at greater distance, but then we're no longer talking about wall mounting. I designed this wall mount system to save floor space & because I wasn't interested in displaying the mounts or the exciters (backs of DML panels). But you do need some distance from a surface.
Small changes make big differences near the surface. Against the wall had the highest coloration. A foot from the wall, not so much. My experience was that at closest (back of exciter 1/8" from touching wall surface) your ears can locate the exciter position on the panel from the front surface without seeing it. Individual preferences will vary, but I was happy with the back of the exciter about one inch from the wall surface. That puts the back surface of the panel 1.5 to 2-inches from the wall surface.
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This is one of the cleanest installs of DML I have ever seen. You took the "home made" out of it. And they don't wobble all over when the AC kicks on. Well done!
Mark VanWey: I'm glad you liked the video and thanks for kind words. We're still enjoying this setup with no issues.
You are extremely meticulous. Your description is concise and not boring. I have confidence to try this. Thank you.
Thanks, I'm glad you like the video. Enjoy the build.
You solved the issue I was concerned about, which was, "how do you keep them from flying all over the place when the AC kicks on?" Fantastic job.
This would be a good solution for rear surrounds for a 5.1 set up.
Same, I am planning to do this soon. Will update here. If you have tried it let me know?
I was wondering that myself. I have a 5.1 capable of 7.1 but I don't have room for the rear speakers. This would solve that problem.
That was the "Perfect Implementation" of DML speakers considering WAF & internal decoration purposes !
@@VarunDhanwantri Hey bro, you made it ??
incredible walkthrough, can't wait to try this
Thanks, I hope you enjoy build and the sound.
Those make your towers come to life on the high end. They sound really good.
Integritee007: Thanks. They still sound good a year later. Thanks for the comment.
just ordered myself a Dayton to try :) hey, thanks for the video!
evgeni x: I'm glad you liked the video. Enjoy the build and the sound. Thanks for the comment and for sharing.
how did it go ?
Awesome. Thanks. Building my own as we speak with your hanging idea.
Great idea, relatively simple yet ingenious solution for this problem.
Glad you like it! It's amazing how many long nights and trial and errors it took to come up with this design and a layout that accommodates both exciter positions. I went through several adhesives as well before settling on hot glue. I was worried the hot glue would blow right through the front surface of the panel, thus the depth control on the holes. But the stiffness of the plastic glue solved a lot. Thanks for the compliment and I hope you like the sound as much as I do.
A pair of these and my PSW12 powered subwoofer would make an awesome system and require very little power to run. Thanks for an excellent video!
No problem! You're set up sounds spot on 👍
I have been thinking on the same issue...very nice solution vs long fishing string, etc. Thanks for the ideas.
Roger Cowart: I'm glad the video helped. Thanks for the great comment and for sharing.
I like your wall mount system. They sound very clear 👍
classic287: Thanks. It's been a year and they still sound great.
@@ScubaMoto I spent a while figuring out what that bottom string attaches to. In reality, it just acts like a spring suspending the panel. Simply genius. Need to make some of these for my newly wall mounted TV🙂
@@OtherDalfite Thanks. That set up will look good. Enjoy the build.
Ty ty! I've been wondering how I would go about the mount for weeks
P3nguinDarknes5: I'm glad I could help out! Thanks for the comment and for sharing.
Uncle Remus said, that sounds unbelievably cool.... thanks for sharing.
You bet!
Love the suspended mount. Going to try it myself. Build a pair today and man, they sound powerfull
I'm glad it helped and you like the mount. Good job on the build and thanks for sharing.
Very smart implementation. Great video!
Glad it helped! Thanks for the comment.
Here's a little trick I learned from reading an article in Stereo Review Magazine back in the early '70s. Add a 3rd. speaker directly in back of your sitting position. Here's how you do the speaker connection. From the back speaker connect your speaker cable from the MINUS terminal to your MINUS terminal to the front left speaker. Then from your back speaker again, connect your PLUS speaker terminal cable to your PLUS terminal to your front right speaker. Don't worry, if you follow my instructions you will not blow your amp or receiver. Experiment on how far back the rear speaker needs to be so that it doesn't overpower the sound from your front speakers. If viewed from above you would be sitting right in the middle of a triangle of sound. You will be pleasantly surprised with the results! I have been doing this for years and I love it. You can do this with any speakers. ^^
I refuse to take your advice sir. I simply don't believe you. I think you're trying to fry my speaks...
Typically, audio amplifier negative terminals are common, which means they are connected together internal to the amp. So what you are doing is connecting the rear speaker in parallel with the right speaker. With standard 8 ohm speakers, the right amplifier will now have a 4 ohm load. The amp outputs are now unbalanced. This will not improve the system acoustics. However, if you connect the rear speaker across the left and right positive terminals, the rear speaker will play only what is different between the left and right stereo channels. Both channels will be balanced with an effective 4 ohm load which most amps can handle.
@@citydrums7525 Sounds like your brain is already fried.
I remember it always and have run them positive to positive. It is the difference signal between left and right channels. The mono signal is nulled. It works quite well and you can use two speakers in series and put them in a shape that forms a quad with the front speakers. Distance and angle of all four speakers can make a significant difference in the image. Try it out. Enjoy. I've heard it referred to as split channel sound.
So glad YT suggested your video. I was thinking of stand offs attached to speaker and wall, which would be a rigid contact, even if minimal.
Glad I could help. Enjoy the build.
Excellent mounting system
Xan X123: I'm glad you like it, thanks for the comment.
they look great!
This is such a great video. It's been a while since I've tinkered with exciters. Thank you for sharing your mounting technique. I noticed that Dayton released a quad exciter unit that looks pretty insane, and that's got me interested in getting back into the mix for DML panel speakers accompanied by horn loaded tweeters and open baffle subs.
Jerad Benge: I'm glad you liked the video. These were a bit of a game changer for me too. Thanks for the comment.
Amazing. Really detailed in certain frequencies. I’ve been reading about these for a while. Enough I guess to know what the 5/3 rule is. I have often wondered the effect of placing two on one sheet and using filters or crossovers to even the harmonics out. Gonna have to order some and start playing around.
From what I hear, the clarity could be because it has fewer contacts that the what we see with a usual speaker which has contact all around like a circle. As this causes distortion as the diaphragm doesn't move the same at those edges. I'm thinking maybe 2 speakers with different frequency filters may do the same distortions which you may not want.
Excellent idea. I did something similar with a couple of corrugated styrene panels, and hung them from the ceiling with thin wire, also inspired by the same YT channel.. I like the finished look of yours, matching the wall.
Jim Hilbert: That sounds like a good build. Thanks for the comment.
What would these do with my ATMOS system? Hmmmmm.
how did you mount them to the ceiling? I have limited wall space, but do have 15' high ceilings in my loft and would love to put some of these up there!
Great job, thank you.
AngelPlaysOnPC: I'm glad you like it. Thanks for the comment.
Just one word ...... WOW!
Vint Guitarz: Thanks. Enjoy the build. I'm sure you'll like them.
your presentation is excellent, learned a lot!, going to try this....
puppy BYTE: Thanks. I'm glad you liked the video and I hope you enjoy the build.
Hey ScubaMoto, I watched the well known tech ingredients video about how to build the panels and immediately was obsessed by it. I started to build a set of speakers right away and it wasn't before i practically finished them that I realised I will be hanging them on a wall in between two windows. The idea of hanging them from a wire from the picture rail (it's a rental studio, I unfortunately can't drill) seems like a bad idea because of the wind. But then I found your video! Thank you so much for the great idea. Now all wasn't for nothing. I'm going to try to use some kind of adhesive instead of drilling the mounts to the wall, hopefully that will work. Thanks again, you're a savior. And your panels look really good!
Timo Cohen: Thanks for the compliment. I'm glad you like the look. Congratulations on the build.
It's interesting how the panels have such huge resonance spikes but still sound good.
The Polk speaker had equally spiked audio
isn't it the music he was playing?
Exactly what I was looking for!
I'm still loving mine. Have fun with them.
@@ScubaMoto Thanks! Do they have adequate treble? Also, should I buy them out of foam or like his ones with acoustic dampening tiles?
I like the mid to high frequency produced better than most high-end speaks I've experienced. However, audio preferences are personal. I would guess you might get 10 different answers from 10 people on materials used. I haven't used acoustic tile but I would modify shape before switching materials depending on what outcome I wanted. Mine are part of a set, so they contribute exactly what I want to the listening experience. For more low frequency response, I would go with twice the length and a 40w exciter but I would still supplement with at least a woofer. Good luck with your system.
@@ScubaMoto Thank you very much ! they will be perfect for voices :)
These would be amazing surround sound speakers!
Totally agree!
I’ve seen several videos and so far this has transformed very nicely, I just have to ask if anyone has tried round wall plates since it’s basically a speaker without the round cone, onto a square with rounded edges. But I love your design better to make it look less obvious if that’s the correct term.
i was said, that simple circles has the most resonations, and it was said, that is unwanted, but maybe some will try it and measure frequencies 😉
Maybe i found at last solution for my multichannel sound setup. Thanks. I'll try to use these as rear speakers. Maybe even center.
What if you made a larger frame (28x28), covered with fabric of your choice, adhesive attach the foam board to the fabric (centered) and hung the frame in traditional manner to the wall? Seems like it would offer enough isolation with possible easier mounting/no paint or prep.
I wonder if these can be tuned and refined a bit to eventually build up a full 7.1 channel system including a subwoofer.
Would be fun to open your Klipsch and re-route the tweeter output from its crossover to the DML panels, and then hear the result. Thanks for the great content.
g h: Interesting idea. I believe Klipsch choose 1800hz as crossover for their tweets on that tower model. I know others are using crossovers to cut power exposure, but I'm not sure I'd want to limit the DML's frequency exposure quite that much. I'm too impressed with the full voice range that I'm getting through the panels.
@@ScubaMoto Makes sense, but it might be a fun experiment nonetheless. Tell me more about using crossovers to cut power exposure. Why would/could that be necessary?
g h: The exciters have power ratings and I would guess most people cutting power are doing it to protect the exciter during high-volume events. If you search on the exciter model you will find plenty of threads talking about using crossovers and mini-amps for these.
I would have thought the paint would lessen the flexibility of the tiles, but it sure sounds good to me
If he used a Latex paint id say he'd be fine as far as flexibility goes. Would be an interesting experiment comparison though.. maybe even using something like plasti dip as a paint lol
I'd agree, and tech ingredients does say in their video to try and avoid any type of coating. That said, reality is that pink doesn't match well with anything, so a light as possible coat of a good quality latex paint is probably as good as you'll get as far as matching your existing space.
Lance Custer: Good points. They sound great but there's no need to abandon aesthetics. Given the frequency response of the foam panels, paint may be an improvement by some measure. I'd do a blind taste test but there are just some things I'm not willing to display. The color and appearance of the raw materials used, (including the exciters imho) might not match the aesthetic of the audio systems or environs they're used in. Thanks for the comment.
8:10 "Incredibly non-scientific" I love how flatly that line was delivered hahaha
I think I'll make two of these panels but as wall art. Hang them behind the couch as surround speakers.
Think ill make a set of these and wire them in series with my towers. Should be interesting.
In series? More speakers does not equal good sound, quite the opposite.... I'd be interested to know the results.
Watch out for the impedance if you wire them in series.
Has anyone suspended these from the ceiling for dolby atmos? I would think they would be perfect for that application and very unobtrusive
I believe I read somewhere that the man that discovered this back in the 60's had put this theory to his drop ceiling throughout his home and could have music in any room just by plugging into the exiter that was wired to a wall socket.😎👍
I have two ceiling speakers that are not great quality and could use replacing. The wiring from my Bose system is all there from the amp so I think I’m going to try it. Any suggestions would be much appreciated.
I'd like to know also. My plan to hang on ceiling with matte paint so they become more invisible. I'm thinking no problem practically.
Oh man this is an excellent idea! If you run with this I would love to know your results!
If you watch Tech Ingredient's video on which this one was inspired you'll see that you could potentially use the panels of a drop-down ceiling if you shorten the sides and use foam or something like it to dampen the vibration so it doesn't transfer to the rest of the ceiling. Comment on tightening the line, use a truckers hitch knot.
For a novice using these, how would one achieve more bass using a simple 2 channel stereo? Perhaps these on A and a sub on B. Or will a sub (more bass) even be needed? Great video 👍🏼👍🏼
great work, I've been looking at making a set but wasn't sure how best to mount them, i rent and putting holes in the ceiling seemed kinda sketchy
charlesissleepy: Glad I could help. Enjoy the build.
Considering making a small pair of these to use as rear speakers in a 7.1 setup. Just need to think about whether it's worth it!
I bought speakers and I bought sheet styrene. Then I stopped. Could I paint the styrene? I was unable to find out. Now you show me painted panels that sound great and perform well. I like your hanging method and the bottom suspension method as well. Thank you.
jimspc: Enjoy the build and the sound. Thanks for the comment.
You can spraypaint the panels from 40cm away (to avoid having the paint chemicals melt the upper layer) with no problems except excessive use of paint. Saw this in a video.
This is probably too late but you can buy water based spray paint to use on styrofoam.
I have a request, I would like you to listen to the video that you made of the music being played and then do another video telling us how much in the video it sounds like in real life, because on my end it sounds amazing on my headphones
Hey bud. Great video. I've watched lots of the dml videos etc and your one looks the best. I have a question if thats cool. I see you made these 3 years ago, have they deteriorated in any way? Any new rattles or vibrations? Thanks man. Good work
Time flies! 3 1/2 years and no issues or changes. All mounting posts are solid and the exciters are still firmly attached. They have seen near daily use in combo with the Klipsch towers and still deliver excellent mid to upper range. I hope that helps. Enjoy the build.
@ScubaMoto ah that's great. Thank you for the info. I'll be building those in October hopefully then. Thanks once again bud. 👍
Just saw this video, nice job. Did you investigate using different sizes of board to achieve different characteristics A wall with a couple 4X4's, 18X18" and a couple of 6X6" might be awesome. But you'd need a freq divider maybe. Also in the installation video did you feed the signal with hardwire or still using bluetooth.
So far I've just stuck with the 24-inch square and no Bluetooth was used for this video. Thanks for the comment and questions.
Amazing
Thanks
i onder if you could also build them into a panel with acousticly transparent cloth? and then make mathcing acustic panels for the rest of the room if needed
Hmmm im curios. could you use thouse panels if you mount them on the side
Thankyou for sharing SC . Before i begin mine i am curious if anyone reading here has used the quad "bullfrog" version which is 4 exciters as compared to using two single exciters per DML panel ? DAEX25X4-4 Bullfrog is the part number
Wow nice.
Thanks
Great video, thanks. I'm planning to do something similar and your hanging method will fit the bill. There's a lot of talk online about needing to position the speakers a few feet out from the wall. Yours are just a few inches (which is where I plan to hang mine). Have you experienced any issues by having them so close to the wall?
Paul McNamara: Thanks for such a great question. DML panels introduced us to a sound so magnificent that many abandoned aesthetics to get it. So placement becomes a benefit analysis of personal preferences. Like any sound emitter, these transmit quite different at surface contact than they do one foot from a surface. The most perceptible variations I noticed were from 1 to 2.5 inches from the wall surface to the back surface of the DML panel. Changes certainly continue at greater distance, but then we're no longer talking about wall mounting. I designed this wall mount to save floor space and because I wasn't interested in displaying the mounts or the backs of the DML panels. But you do need some distance from a surface. Small changes make big differences near the surface. Against the wall makes source location easy. A foot from the wall, not so much. My experience was that at closest (back of exciter 1/8-inch from touching wall surface) your ears can locate the exact exciter position on the panel from the front surface without seeing it. I was happy with the back of the exciter about one inch from the wall surface. That puts the back surface of the panel between 1.5 - 2-inches from the wall surface. It could be better, but it is still leagues ahead of conventional loudspeakers for mid/high range IMHO. Thanks again for the great question and I hope you enjoy the sound from these as much as I do.
@@ScubaMoto it occurred to me that an unobtrusive way to mount these a bit further from the wall would be to hand them from a floating shelf, basically mimicking your technique otherwise. I plan on doing it your way but if someone was convinced the gap behind was critical
@@charlesissleepy similar here , we have timber picture rails mounted around the walls so i will make brackets that clip to them with elastic bands to support the DML's and will try SC's spacing at 2" from the wall. After watching around 7 YT videos on DML panels I will be going 2/5 th mounting and 1.618 length versus width
I'm thinking of breaking apart my cheap 100$ soundbar to use speakers like this, and the subwoofer line to my powered subwoofer. Well made video, thanks.
Mark Derail: Thanks for taking the time to share. That sounds like a great project, enjoy!
Did you do it? How did it pan out?
We used mixed material foam and wood and some tricks from a violin / guitar
Wierd coincidence. I’ve been wanting some klipsch speakers and you are the 3rd KZhead channel I’ve watched on this diy speaker set up with klipsch speakers.
nice to see your suspension design - thanks! playing with similar :-) PS did you try pink noise with your spectrum analyser?
Glad you like the suspension design. Pink is great. It's been useful for volume balance on my theater surround system. Also, combined with the analyzer, it gives a good visual image of differences in frequency transmission. For a video, music made it easy for viewers to hear the stark contrast between DML and conventional frequency delivery. But pink plus analyzer is the final word.
sweet gonna make some of these the trebble sounds awesome........nice 1 im presuming i can add a picture on the front to make them look like pictures rather than blank boards?
keizersoze: Absolutely. I've seen canvas art DML's advertised but I would only use the foam board to ensure good audio dynamics. You can either paint directly on the foam board (or commission your artist friend to paint on it) or you could adhere an image to it. Adhesion needs to be uniform so the face is rigid with the foam board. You can use a roll on adhesive; but to keep the weight down, 3M makes good spray on adhesives. Have fun with the build and thanks for the comment.
@@ScubaMoto yeah adhere an image will be the way to go and yup I'll use the foam insulation foam stuff
I'd like to see a full surround setup with panels.
I completely agree and I have been trying to work a solution that both sounds and looks good. The challenges are: 1- surround is directional and aiming these would be necessary meaning tricky mounts and lots of air space. 2 - Size matters. My Polk Audio 100W surround satellites are very small but put out big sound and are easy to aim with the wall ball mounts they're on. I wanted to try smaller DMLs, but to get the same sound "size" as the Polk Audios with a DML, I may need to stick with the 24-inch squares with at least 20W exciters for each satellite, which gets pretty big, pretty fast with a 7.1 system. I'm considering supplementing the existing Polk Audios with smaller DMLs just to fill the mid-high voice range that's often lacking in theater systems. If they phase up right, it could be the solution I'm looking for.
1. Yes, the wall mimic works but I've kind of gone another direction for aesthetics. Q1 Not yet, but I'm looking at smaller panels as surround satellite supplements rather than replacements. Q2 I don't see a problem with 35w for these. Q3 5.1 should work especially since these are best served with a subwoofer. Q4 not sure on that one.
Side Swipe: 1-Decals won't hurt anything. 2-In a way, building my wall mounts (in the video) to mimic acoustical panels is similar but I'm not ready to put exciters on the backs of my kitchen cabinet doors . . . even though I've considered doing just that for stealth lo-fi. 3- My preference is the simpler the better, no baffles or flaps.
Great Video. I have a question? how did you decide which exciter to use on your project? I want to do a similar project and not sure which exciters to use. I also saw a Low Frequency Bass Exicter by Dyton and I wonder if I could use that as a sub mounted on the same xps pannel
A lot of testing of panel materials, panel size and exciter types and locations was done years ago by Tech Ingredients who I mention in the video and description. My audio testing at the end of this video is little compared to his very thorough comparisons of panel configurations. It's typical to use a subwoofer or, in my case, the towers shown in the video to deliver lower frequencies. My preference is to use this DML technology as a supplement to an existing system. These panels demand either high quality recordings and/or careful filtration as most audio recording distortion is within the frequency band that is brought to life by these panels. I hope that helps and thanks for watching and for the comment.
Well done. Am interested in good mids and highs of these DML speakers but want bass as well. Have you come across inexpensive ways to get decent bass? I don't need Disco levels of bass, just a good warm and tight bass that rounds out music and makes it "fuller".
IncandescentDaD: Thanks. I’m glad you liked the video. Since you're not looking to rattle the dishes, you might get what you need by building larger DML’s to supplement the 2X2's. I prefer a sub with these but preferences vary, so when I read that someone is getting good bass response from a 2X4 DML, it’s impossible to tell without being in the room. Even then, 5 people standing there may give five very different assessments. The panel material is cheap and 40W exciters aren’t much more than the 24W, so you could just build a pair and see what you think. You mentioned inexpensive and for about twice the money of building those 2X4 DML's you could get one good subwoofer if you’ve got a spot for it. I’ve read plenty of good reviews on the Dayton Audio SUB-800’s. They’re a good 40-140 Hz sub and they're sub-$100. For just a few bucks more, the Polk Audio PSW10 (40-160Hz) reviews very well and could handle a bit larger space. Edit: Sony Core Series 10" SACS9 is a decent 28-200Hz sub that's often priced at $99. I hope that helps.
@@ScubaMoto Thanks for the pointers!
What kind of did he use? The paint does not modify the sound? Thank you, beautifull video!
Paolo Acone: Thanks for the comment. I'm glad you liked the video. Any paint will add some weight and therefore have some effect on audio dynamics but these were not going on the wall unless they matched. I used the exact same flat latex paint that is on the wall it's mounted to. It sounds good with no adhesion issues two years running.
@@ScubaMoto I see, thank you.
I have a very tall ceiling and walls in my living room - I was going to mount these up about 10-foot off the floor, attach an Echo Dot to each (on opposite walls) and some type of small power amp. Which amp would you recommend? Will this work? I bought the speakers suggested and can’t wait to build the panels! I think I will be building a Walnut frame around them so they look a little better since our home is modern/contemporary themed...
Adrian Abshire: I have links for several small amps in the video description that might get you started. No personal preference beyond that. I would simply look for the best reviews. As for the walnut frame, I am all for aesthetics but I would be concerned about the effect of boxing in the sides. Since the effect may be one you like, I say go for it and let us know how they sound. Thanks for sharing the comment and ideas.
Tech ingredients also suggested balsa (particularly endgrains) So perhaps make the frames out of balsa, and dye them a walnut color You wouldn't have to sacrifice sound as much, and it might add to the tonality somehow too
Great Video! Do the speakers have to be vertical or could I hang them at an angle? I am thinking of a room I have in my upstairs with sloped ceilings?
thomas: Sound does emanate from both sides but you should be fine aiming them from a ceiling position. You can also get away with more distance from the surface. The challenge might be wire routing.
Can u make a video Adding weights to the exciters? I want to see if adding more mass to the driver causes the foam board to physically travel more thus creating louder sounds. Because I would assume a lot of energy is lost into moving the little but heavy drivers vs trying to translate the foam board which has little mass but greater air resistance to movement. ? Next video idea 😉
Nice video. Any issues with rear wall reflections with the panels mounted so close to the wall?
Tracy Blair: Great question and I get asked it enough that I put a note in the video description that answers it as best I can. Thanks for asking.
@@ScubaMoto Thanks!
2 questions please; 1) how do you match impedance with a an 8 ohm receiver? and 2) latex, acrylic or oil paint?
MonkigunMkII Flash: Good questions and each could be the topic of separate videos if you want to get nerdy but I may end up pinning your question. Balancing impedance is more than a simple response. Most modern amplifiers would be okay with these tiny currents but exciters are available in several ohm models and DMLs are most often paired with powered subwoofers that have gain control on board. Wiring in series, vs parallel vs using crossovers and filters is both a system design consideration and a personal preference. An important note on foam DMLs is that they are efficient. They are not likely to blow output transistors or capacitors as they don't draw much current while they produce a relatively large sound. Your sound space, your system and your preferences all come into play. Experiment and adjust. The paint question. I have not seen nor heard these unpainted or unfinished as the raw materials in most cases looks awful and the point of this mounting system is that aesthetics also matter. Most wall paint is latex (including that in the video). Latex paint is flexible enough to endure, it has had good adhesion and it had good enough coverage to conceal the lovely purple foam board. The latex is also easy to clean up and it is not typically environmentally atrocious. Latex can easily be mixed for spraying or can be brushed or rolled on. By brushing it, I got the specific grain look that I wanted. One adhesion concern is the exciter mounting location. You'll notice in the video how I prepped that location after painting. One year later, neither the tape that came with the exciter nor the paint have released at the exciter location nor has the paint failed anywhere else. Thanks for the questions, I hope that helps.
You could buy the 8 ohm versions or connect two 4 ohm sounders in series
Do you think this would work for a smaller surface area to make a surround sound type speaker? It would probably be much more rectangular in shape. I’m looking at music instrument quality spruce as well.
I haven't tested a smaller size yet but I will use 12-inch square with the same 24w exciters for my surrounds. Just working my mounts. The spruce would look nice.
Please post when you get the surrounds done. I have some ideas for aesthetic quality and WAF lol but want to see if this would work well or not. Of concern would be the directional quality of surrounds vs the more Omni directional DML small panels.
how hard would it be to use these for your tv?
your mount looks amazing may i ask if you stick both exciter to 2/5 3/5 area, or have one in dead middle?
shng sam: For the video I just wanted to show that this wall suspension system could accommodate both exciter positions and I wanted to show a layout for 2/5 3/5 position mount. So, I have heard this set with one exciter in each position and I currently have both at 2/5 3/5 but I honestly heard very little difference. I do have a note in the video description on exciter location. Thanks for the question.
@@ScubaMoto Thanks! Good to know that. in my future build i will have both in 2/5 3/5 position
I'm considering making two of these and getting and amp with built in streaming and HDMI ARC OR buying a soundbar. Let's say the amp costs $500 USD and these speakers cost $50 USD do any of you think these could compare to a $550 USD soundbar?
Well I made a pair of these with the 15W dayton exciters last weekend, and I don't like it :-( maybe I should try some different panel sizes. It does sound different in a good way too though! UPDATE: it's actually the 20W version, I was wrong. And I stuck one to some cheap 3mm plywood of roughly the same size and it's waaaay better. Better low mids and less sharp highs. It also sounds more present and real. The EPS foam board sounds thin in comparison. Especially voiced sound weird on the foam. BUT the plywood requires more power to get the same loudness and I start to max out the exciter faster.
maxim_sys: Thanks for the comment and for sharing your experience with making your own speakers. The exciters used in the video are 24W each for my 24-inch square panels. I gave a part number in the video with links in the video description. If they are backordered, you could try 20W or even 40W for the same panel size.
40 watt version is superior.
If you did use EPS (Expanded Polystyrene) then you are using the wrong product, you need XPS (Extruded Polystyrene) as used here. EPS just does not work.
Could this work if they were hung horizontally? I am thinking about using them on a ceiling. Thanks in advance!
It should be a even simpler if they're parallel to the surface so long as you're good with your wire routing. If you're trying to aim them as directionals, then it might be a bit more involved to get all the angles you want.
What I wonder is they say to have one exciter in the center of one board and one off-center on the other to cover more frequencies. But wouldn't that make the frequency response different for your left and your right speaker if doing a stereo setup? Would you need two boards on each side, one center and one off-center for each side for the best results?
Talking Hands: I've heard that as well. For the video I just wanted to show that this wall suspension system could accommodate both exciter positions. I put a note in the video description on exciter location. Thanks for the comment.
Talking hands- watch the Tech Ingredients video on this. Everything you ask has already been tested. The name of the video is "Worlds Best Speakers!" He has already tested every possible driver placement, panel shape, etc...
Are these capable with any speaker brand, say like a Bose. To me the upper range is to much for my liking
My first thought was to attach them to the skin of a drum. Presently one is 2 1/2 deep inches by 22 inch. I believe they're referred to as pancake drums.
That's a big one. It would look great. I'm not sure how the shell would affect the sound but if you try it, let us know what you think.
I have to make a pair of these and put them down firing from the ceiling on my porch with a little bluetooth amp.
Don't you want these well off the wall for the bi-pole functionality? Have you tried both near and far from the wall and compared? I really like this method.
Great question and I get asked it enough that I put a note in the video description that answers it as best I can. Thanks for asking.
@@ScubaMoto Thanks for pointing me to that. I really like your mounting system, but i think I'm going to make hanging stands since I'm already used to having great big Magnepans a few feet from my wall. But man, those look great sir.
Thanks for the video. I’ve been looking for a discreet solution as i don’t like the look of speakers in a room. I might give it a try. One question: did you try smaller ones like 12”x12” or 12”x16”? Wondering how that would sound for rear surround speakers. Thanks a lot!
Francis Rene: I'm glad you liked the video and thank you for a really great question on using 12x12-inch for surrounds. I have not yet, but my plan is to try exactly that size for my theater. I plan to start with 12x12's only for fronts and center as I expect them to fill the typical void that theater systems have for voice frequencies and above. If they work out, I my also do sides and rears. My current Onkyo - Polk Audio system is very good but some programs could use better response in the vocal range. After hearing what these 24x24-inch DML's can do for voice, I just need to finish my mount design for my theater 12x12's.
Thanks for the reply! Can’t wait to hear from you. Hope you’ll do a video about it once it’s done. Keep up the great work!
@@TheFarene Have you tried this? I'm considering this too. If so, was it a success?
@@ScubaMoto I am interested in the different sizes as well. I've watched all the available videos I can find, Tech Ingredients (of course), Amplify DIY, etc. ... and though I see lots of experimentation with materials and shapes, it seems that the question of size is hardly ever addressed or analyzed. Tech Ingredients was so thorough otherwise, and in the final analysis said XPS foam at 1" thick was just about the best (subjective) material, so I am going to try that. Project Gallery has what seems like a thorough write-up [projectgallery.parts-express.com/speaker-projects/dml-flat-pannel/] and if you dig down far enough in the comments, the author says, "I really like the sound of the smaller panels [12″x14.5″ panels vs 2’x2’s]. They seem cleaner and more clarity with less panel resonances as the signal leaves the panel more quickly." There also was an extensive discussion of what ratio was most beneficial. Ultimately, I am about to try 19"x20" with dual exciters. I will put in the small extra effort of coating with the 1:1 wood glue/water mixture as I hear that once it dries it noticeably improves the high frequency response, giving the foam a bit of brittle shell to vibrate with. I got a 2.1 amp so I can add a passive or active sub as needed. It should be done this week. I'll provide an update at some point. Please do let us know how your own 12" x 12" (though you wrote 12' x 12', I'm thinking that's either a typo or you have a HUGE space, lol) turned out!
@@qua7771 no. Was supposed to finish my home theatre room but the cost for wood was just insane. Hopefully it will be next spring
about to do the same, but the doc I read said that the panels shouldn't be square but more rectangular. Did I misunderstand or simply a choice was made here that square looked better and simpler to do, knowing that rectangular would have been better? maybe?
The 24-inch square panels have been sounding great coupled with the towers for the last year. I have heard some using 24-inch by 48-inch DML panels claiming good bass response using higher wattage exciters.
Tech ingredients had mentioned that spray paint worked well if far away enough, but you used latex house paint, does that change the sound at all? or too little that we couldn't really notice? maybe have to be super thinned out?
Eric F: I haven't compared it to spray paint but the fabric grain effect of brush painting is the look I wanted and it also worked out quite well for sound. I hope that helps.
@@ScubaMoto I started doing mine, so far so good and decided to go with the latex paint like you did. Question: you think the distance from the wall is a factor on the quality or freq response? or just have enough room to "breathe" move freely is all you need? what do you think? I read somewhere to leave at least 2 foot from the wall, that seems counter productive to me.
Eric F: I'm glad to hear you've started the build. Wall mounting these does effect the sound but 2 feet would no longer be a wall mount. I put a note in the video description regarding my experience with distance from surface. I hope that helps.
How about mounting these on the back of a canvas painting? Like inside of the back frame? Would it have an effect on sound?
Christer Johansson: Good question. I'll assume you mean mount the completed DML panel speaker behind the canvas and not just the exciter. Mounting the entire foam DML panel with the exciter to Canvas would likely work best with uniform adhesion of the panel to the canvas. But since canvas has no rigidity, you would not want to mount the exciter directly to the canvas. The exciter energy would send waves through the canvas. You would certainly hear something but not of much quality. Probably similar issues mounting the exciter to the canvas frame. I've considered sending completed panel speakers to artists as a canvas for a commissioned work. They are a good size for that.
I've been thinking about this too actually: mounting the entire panel inside a stretched canvas with a wooden frame - having the foam board suspended completely isolated from the canvas and frame. Maybe attached to springs like a trampoline. Not worth the effort if the canvass + thick paint would dampen the sound
What's the bass like? I'm a DJ... hence the obvious question. Nice mounts BTW, though mine (when I eventually make them) will be in my little studio, so I'll just hang them from the ceiling.
DJ-Daz: DML's are usually best served with a sub. That's why I included both an audio and visual test at the end so you can see the low frequency performance of the DML's only. I can say with confidence that many high-end speakers can't come close to competing with a good 2x2 DML for performance in mid and high frequencies. Thanks for the question and for sharing.
@@ScubaMoto Hi, but subwoofer don't produce low frequency they are usually only good for super low frequencies. If you don't have a good 200-400hz you are lacking a lot of depth.
@@ChristianBrandoniI noticed that Tech ingredients called these DML Panels good down to about 120hz as he mentions in this video bit.ly/2SdzfgL at about the 28 1/2 minute mark. That would make DML + most subs full sound. That being said, I very much like the combination of the Klipsch towers with the DMLs in this video which I know many might not agree with because I feel that the DMLs shine at frequencies that are under performed by conventional speakers. The bottom line is that 10 listeners may have 10 different assessments so it's best to experiment in your own listening environment and adjust accordingly. Thanks for taking the time to comment.
Would we typically run these off the same amp as the conventional speakers or off their own amp? Also, should I make a second set with drivers installed and run them together? I also saw a video where a guy used birch plywood from his e depot. Which is better for deeper bass and a richer all around sound quality?
Iff you want bass, just make the DMS's way bigger. You can use XPS for that. My mates panels dip into the 50hz as long as the sound is not too punchy. You should also use some sort of eq to flatten the freq response of the DML's. Makes m sound way better.
Hi is their any way you could make a push fit design speaker as i have tremors and find it dangerous using heat iron
Andrew Bird: I chose the hot glue because it adheres very well to the foam and dries in minutes but hot glue is certainly not necessary. You just need a glue that adheres well to the foam and dries hard enough to handle the lateral tension on the mounting pins. You may be able to see remnants in certain parts of the video of the first trial runs of different compounds I used. They either dried too soft or did not adhere well to the foam. I considered using screw-in anchors like screw-in drywall anchors (Togglers) but they are too long and do not truly adhere to the foam well enough to provide a lateral structural tension load. So, any glue or epoxy that dries hard and adheres well will work. I hope that helps.
Question: should one worry about this kind of speaker being sensitive to heavy bass? Like, here's shown they're suspended by a thread, so wouldn't strong bass be able to like jiggle them and affect their sound output quality?
They are not good bass speakers anyway. Send the signal somewhere else to a sub with a cross over or built in amp.
Question . What if i mount the exciter to a stand and the panels just float with no strings . So only the exciter glue will hold the panel . Would it work good ? My biggest concern is that the panels might have more movement to them because exciter is stuck to solid object .
Herus: Great question and I've heard others asking the same question since it would simplify the build. It will certainly have a different sound by changing the dynamic of the exciter. Anything attached to the exciter becomes part of it. So if the exciter is rigidly attached to a stand, they will move as one. The portion of recoil that was happening to the exciter will now be transferred to the panel as additional panel movement because the exciter would now be anchored. It will sound different but who knows, it might sound better. You could easily give it a try and see if you like it. If you try it, please let us know what you think for the benefit of viewers. Thanks for the question.
is it recommendable to paint the panels? i could imagine it changes the properties of the material somewhat.
Due to the appearance of the raw materials, I have yet to hear a pair that are not painted.
@@ScubaMoto if you ever make another pair it would be interesting to compare, and paint them afterwards. i love them, thank you for making this tutorial :)
according to the source project video's author (check the tech ingredients channel) they initially have this sheen to them that the manufacturer recommended removing for this specific application. He also experimented with a bunch of different materials, which i hope more people keep doing - a metal sheet for example rang out like live reverb, which alone was too much but as a secondary speaker with enough control is a phenomenal idea.
Seems to be 2 giant mid range speakers basically. Would still want low frequency and high frequency drivers on top of the panels.
What kind of amp are you driving them with ? I ordered 2 pairs today so I could drive them with my regular Amp.
Scott Behl: The system they are running on (and the one in the video) is a gently modded Phase Linear 4000 with a single pass auto correlator filter into a four channel Yamaha MX-630 (135-8/190-4 wpc) volumed between 5 & 25 percent. One year later no issues.
What is the hole at the back of the exciter for? And is it threaded? I have a different pair of Dayton exciters and they have that same hole, and it looks threaded but I can't be sure. Some Dayton models have the hole and some don't. I want to mount my DMLs horizontally, hanging from the ceiling, and I need to figure out if I can mount them directly via the back of the exciters. Thoughts?
g h: There is no threading in the hole. There is not much recoil on little exciters like these but the hole allows for that free movement. It passes all the way through so any small bolt or screw will fit through it if that is your objective but I would not recommend a rigid mount of the exciter to a fixed surface (ceiling of otherwise). I would build the DMLs and then suspend the entire panel/exciter process with no rigid contact just as I do for the wall mount. Otherwise you are hanging the panel from the diaphragm of the exciter. This is not good for several reasons: 1-You would have to center mount the exciter, so no hope of 2/5 3/5 advantage. 2-Over time and repeated use, the weight would likely tear the exciter diaphragm, 3-The acoustic dynamics of any exciter can not be the same as an independently operating exciter when it has a panel hanging from it. I hope that helps.
@@ScubaMoto I see your point. Thanks for the info.
@@ScubaMoto After mulling this over I realize something... The panel (such as the 24" x 24" sized one) is much lighter than the exciter itself. When the exciter is mounted as you have, then it's subject to a much greater (lateral) force than it would experience if mounted horizontally with the panel hanging off it. So to my mind, the exciter would perform much more freely mounted as I suggest than the standard vertical way, as well as providing less likelihood of a torn exciter diaphragm. The only remaining issue (as you point out) is that it would probably need to be mounted in the center of the panel. However, it might be possible to still have it at least slightly off-center and still be okay.
What are the connector pins you use to wire up the exciter called? And where can I get them?
At the exciter I used spade connectors amzn.to/3Owwe2g I believe one is a 2.8mm and the other is a 4.8mm. I hope that helps.
Anyone know how small panels could be to be viable?
Are the exciters mounted directly in the center of both the panels? Another video led me here and that guy put them in 2 different locations on each panel to balanced the sound he said I’m surprised painting them didn’t affect sound. I’d like to make these them have a hand painted picture on both of them like art.
There's a note in the video description on exciter location. It depends on how many speakers per channel. Thanks for the question.
@@ScubaMoto I heard the mounting bracket and pin location measurements but must have missed the measurements on the exciters. Thanks for the reply, I’ll rewatch a third time and take notes.
If you're doing single speaker channels just use the 2/5 3/5 rule to locate it. For a 2-foot panel, that would be 14.4 inch from bottom and 14.4 from left or from right for the exciters. For a second DML on the same channel you would center the exciter.
@@ScubaMoto Thanks!
What paint did you use i am using lacquer and it's not sticking to my xps foam plate well
I sanded mine with the deep lines as mentioned in the video before painting and then used the same latex paint that is on the wall. Still good adhesion to this day. The paint is still adhering well and the exciters are hanging very well to the paint. I can still tug the exciters almost three years later and nothing is loose. I'm surprised an oil based lacquer isn't sticking well.
Great video! Just built a pair of these myself yesterday and they sound great! I noticed that if I keep them 3" from the wall, they sound very thin and pushing them back closer to the wall appears to kill all the bass. I pulled it out away from the wall to about 18" and the bass became more full. Having it this far out into the room makes it less practical. Were you able to resolve the thinness issue with it that close to the wall?
Tony Jin: Thanks, I'm glad you like the video. I knew I would only use a wall mount and I built my DML's for the mid-high range response. When I experimented with wall spacing, I choose the distance shown as good for a wall mount so that was an adequate resolution for my needs. I do have a note in the video description on that experience. Most DML applications are powered in conjunction with a subwoofer or other conventional loudspeaker that carries the lower frequencies. If the 18" works for your listening space then you should go with that.
I really want to make one of those but I can't find those pink foam panels on my country. I have no idea what could be a good replacement.
WK_fpv: I put a link in the video description to get people started but for your location, just search on "poliestireno-extruido". It's very common in building materials and is not expensive. I hope that helps and enjoy the build.
drop ceiling tiles are as good or better and cheaper
For some reason I can’t find 1 inch thick boards in Sweden. It’s either 20mm or 30mm, and an inch is 25.4mm. What would you suggest I pick?
pepeu: The 24 watt exciter should sound good with either. The more power you're running through it, perhaps the thicker, more rigid dimension you would want but personal preference for aesthetics may be your deciding factor. It's likely that the origin of the 1-inch dimension by tech ingredients may have been as much a factor of what was readily available than of audio dynamics. With a few exceptions, most assessments of variations in shapes and dimensions yielded limited differences. Enjoy the project.
I was wondering if there is a solution to mount these suspended in a frame somehow. Isn't that essentially what a speaker is , an exciter vibrating a surface suspended in a frame?
ya
just build a frame and suspend the panel in it exactly the same way you would hang the panel from anything else. Just make a square frame without a back and hang the panel from the top
The lack of suspension is why they are good. If you shackle them in a frame, you've ruined them!
Why couldn’t you just mount the fixed portion of the exciter to the wall? The panel would still suspend / vibrate from the moving portion of the exciter.
magnetically would be ideal.
Has anyone used these as rear speakers? How would these fair as surround speakers?