How to increase your VO2 max | Peter Attia and Mike Joyner
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This clip is from episode 217 ‒ Exercise, VO2 max, and longevity with Mike Joyner, M.D. Mike Joyner is a physician-researcher and one of the world’s leading experts on human performance and exercise physiology.
In this clip, Mike and Peter discuss:
- Peter's 4x4 protocol for increasing VO2 max
- Mike Joyner's approach to increasing VO2 max
- Exploring your limits with interval training
- And more
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About:
The Peter Attia Drive is a deep-dive podcast focusing on maximizing longevity, and all that goes into that from physical to cognitive to emotional health. With over 70 million episodes downloaded, it features topics including exercise, nutritional biochemistry, cardiovascular disease, Alzheimer’s disease, cancer, mental health, and much more.
Peter Attia is the founder of Early Medical, a medical practice that applies the principles of Medicine 3.0 to patients with the goal of lengthening their lifespan and simultaneously improving their healthspan.
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Haha 😅 high intensity interval interruption 😅
Perfect example of listening to respond and not listening to understand
Perhaps a bit nervous but yes.
he fits the cyclist/runner stereotype
Yes, annoying!
People saying "that's correct" or "right" over the top of what the other person is saying is probably the most annoying thing an interviewer/interviewee can possibly do
Dude is like rapping „yap, yea, correct, yap!“
I'm 66 and competitive cyclist for 50 yrs, big believer in so-called zone 2 conversational training (for a long time before it was talked about like today), 4-5 days a week and in HITT 1-2 days. I ride over 20K/yr
Hey, man! May I know what's your RHR and blood pressure at that age?
that is a lot!
Dudes interrupting comments are irritating
Mike Joyner boutta be voted most likely to be confused for Neil DeGrasse Tyson
Yup, yeah, correct, yeah, you’re right there, yup, yup, correct, correct, yep, yep, right, I’m with you.
The audio imbalance is contributing a lot to it as well. Joyner's mic levels are way hotter than Attia's.
Incredibly annoying.
I agree. Unsubscribed.
Jesus those interruptions are annoying
My god, I know. I couldn't tolerate it. "Correct." How many times can someone say "correct WHILE Peter is mid sentence. So frustrating.
it will hopefully teach peter to ask succinct questions of his guests, not go on meandering speeches to display his intelligence.
CORRECT
Peter is humble dude. It takes practice to be a good interviewer and interviewee. @@johnconn3054
Dr attia is lagging on quite a few things.
From the scientists at NTNU (Norway) the warmup, warm down and rest periods should be done at 70% of Max HR and the 4 intervals should be done at 85-95% of max HR. Going by 5k race pace, is too variable due to daily physiological and external influences which effect HR. At least for those that are not so experienced with their pacing and correlated excursion levels. Also it’s important to not stand still during rest periods as this won’t effectively remove lactate. Rest periods should be at least 3 min.
I think you’re confusing the map and the territory. Heart rate is just a method of estimating exercise intensity. 5k race pace is more precise (in trained runners at least).
This is exactly what I was looking for that I kept waiting for in the video. Thanks!
@@zoikles1yep. Also running isn’t a good way to think around this issue because it’s more a physical activity. Cycling is perfect because it’s pure physiology.
Thank you. Amazing how two experts can avoid getting to the basic info! Don't think they even understand about the need to remove lactate....
After that meandering conversation, I have no idea what I should do to increase VO2 max besides 4x4 some number of times after some period of time...I still have no clear, measurable intensity target.
Do 4x4 once a week. My advice: if you’re not recovering during 3’ rest, add more time. Start new running once your HR recovers (120-140 bpm). Do Zone 2 3-4 times/week (120 - 200 hrs in total). Do 3-4 strength trainings. Add stability/mobility exercises between strength reps or separately.
Lose weight if u have any spare as vo2 calculation is based around weight and oxygen
“Correct” “Correct” “Correct”
Atria has taken a simple well proven concept(move and eat better) and made it exceedingly complicated and boring😅
I'm a mere mortal who's overweight. Anyways, these 4x4 sound more-so like Zone 3 intervals, not true Zone 4 and certainty not Zone 5. Am i correct? That would help me get a handle on what we're doing here. Like okay, these are just bouts of Zone 3 which I could easily fit into the end of a Zone 2 workout. I suppose these are "intervals" but I'm usually thinking something faster when I hear "interval." I also find it odd that Zone 3 would be the recommendation when I thought Zone 3 was the zone to avoid.
These are the best thoughts on interval training: Explaining subjectively the managed suffering, or relaxed suffering aspect. I used to swim at Mike Phelps pool in Mount Washington/ N Baltimore.
CORRECT
Mr Joyner is a deep well of wisdom. Thank you for sharing this
Yup. Yup. I'm with you. Correct. Right. Couldn't agree more.
Yup. Yup. Correct. Yup. Yup. Correct. Yup.
Yes! People can (should) do this through the years of getting older. Use it or lose it.
Wish Peter told the guy to hold his replies til he was done talking
CORRECT
This is interesting because Peter's recommendation has been 4×4 at zone 5, and it sounds like Mike is recommending the earlier repeats are more at zone 4 or high 3. High 3 and 4 are what most people's 5k pace would be.
Confusing listen. They discussed everything random but the title of the video.
@@chimoo @028fn48dne This is how I understood it: If you are not familiar with exercising: start slow, just run, swim, bike in a zone 2, building the basement. After 4-6 weeks add one intense training per week - where You do 4 rounds of high intensity and slowing in between. Again start slow, depending on you condition, weight, you can start with 30 sek high intense, 1 minute slow. And build it up towards 4 minutes HIIT, 4 minutes jugging/walking. Zone 4 vs Zone 5? I suppose, zone 5 is for pro athletes. I can't imagine a regular man who exercise 3 times a week, running at their max speed for 4 minutes in 4 rounds.
When I was reading Peter's book what he was saying about Vo2max was about being in zone 4
Nerd, you would only be able to sustain a true “zone 5” effort for 60 seconds max if that. It’s pretty simple, go as hard as you can at a rate you can sustain for the complete 4 minutes. By the end of it, your HR will indeed be in zone 5 due to the duration of your effort, not because it was a true Zone 5 sprint.
I stopped reading after "Nerd," @@DG-tf2mw
They also say that 1-2mins of the 4 mins should be you ramping up to target heart rate then holding that to the end of the 4mins
What about older athletes say > 60, how many times a week should they consider VO2 max type training? I heard that it may increase the likelihood of afib as we age, is that correct? Thanks in advance.
It's not all about VO2. You can have a good max but due to a lousy aerobic threshold hit acidosis after just a minute or so at a very slow pace. Aerobic threshold is arguably a better predictor of endurance performance and needs to be trained, probably according to the 80:20 principal.
Given Seiler's research on 4 x 4 min vs 4 x 8 min vs 4 x 16 min that showed 4 x 8 min as the most effective in boosting VO2Max (Adaptations to aerobic interval training: interactive effects of exercise intensity and total work duration) why do you recommend 4 x 4 min?
Increasing VO2max in the short term via Intervals certainly works as the body is forced to improve from the stimulus. That said its riskier and to truely peak is only really administered for 2 x a wk for 8wks will see excellent improvement. Then the law of diminishing returns and immune system risks kick in / & potential injury. Its why its only the icing on the cake. Most of the total oxygen uptake as Arthur Lydiard proved was in the 65-75% h.r.r Karvoven or as 80/20 describes as Zone2 80-89% of A.T / LT2. Most runners ive seen dont run enough volume and wluld benefit more from running healthy 1st by boosting time pumping the left ventricle in Zone2 predominantly. I agree once a decent Aerobic base is built... then 4 x 4 or 5x4 is excellent in a peaking process. Cheers 🎉
As far as I understood, the Norwegian 4x4 model uses a 3min rest period and it's not a complete rest either. This is according to the Norwegian University of Science and Technology.
Isn't that more of a deliberate lactate accumulation / zone 4 / anaerobic threshold type of work?
@@veejayroth It's the protocol for the Norwegian 4x4. A lot of people get confused thinking the 4x4 means 4 minutes on, 4 minutes off. It doesn't.
It’s 3 minutes in zone 2 in between blocks. The skiers that made this program had 80-90% of training in zone 2 and the 4x4 is peak to big competition.
I am 64, training on zone 2 and strength rotating during the week. On Sunday, I train on stair steppers first 30 minutes at zone 2 and 30 minutes after on zone 5 for VO2 max 4x4. My concern is on Apple watch when doing VO2 max my BPM at the end of each rep show my heart rate between 162 to 172 BPM, far exceeds the 140 BPM for my age. My recover time usually 3 minutes to be back to zone 2. Did I over work my heart for my age, Apple watch shows my estimated VO2 max at 29.7. I have training like this schedule the last three months. Thanks for your attention 2:31 2:33 2:36 .
My version of this is to run up hills and recover on the downhills, for about an hour, twice a week.
"All out" There is a difference between all-out effort and all-out (speed) or power output. While effort can be all out for 30, 40 or more seconds their speed will eventually slow. A four minute "all-out" effort is impossible, while sustained 90% effort could be sustained for minute(s) and then a max effort could be achieved in the last 20 to 30 seconds.
Dr Stan James from Eugene, OR passed away Jan 10, 2022. RIP to one of the greats!
Doing VO2 Max right now
Scrolling youtube, taking a 4 min rest, scrolling again
It's a prank video for everyone wondering. The editor has a mix board with the yep yeah correct uh-huh buttons programmed. You can see Mike's mouth not moving during some of it.
Ha you are soo fuuuNnNyy
Yup, correct
Impossible to watch due to the continuous interruptions and affirmative comments
One tool I used to have my clients use is to blow up balloons. Like those big ones that has a rubber band that's made for punching. $3 bucks at Walmart. Just blow up the balloon and repeat.
CORRECT!
Have you looked into or discussed the descending ladders protocol? I believe this came out of University of Florida, and supposedly maximized time spent at Vo2. ON/Off: 3min/2, 2/1, 1/45s, 45s/30s, 30/20s x 10-20ish rounds of that final interval... all to be done at 5min max power. I setup it up on Zwift and am goin to try
I have the hardest time figuring out intensity level during intervals. How long, how intense or not.
I run and ride with a heart rate monitor, and then watch the timer. For intensity intervals, try your 15 minute warm up easy, then do 4 minutes at a higher pace than your comfortable with - but it doesn't need to be all out, just hold a slightly uncomfortable pace. Then easy running for 2 minutes and repeat this another 3 times. That would be 24 minutes of total work with 16 minutes at your higher intensity, 8 minutes of recovery between intervals. That is a basic 4 x 4 protocol. You would have to do this maybe 2 times a week say every 3rd day to get used to the format and intensity/uncomfortableness. Then it's just experimenting to suit your needs and preference, you can increase or decrease the level of intensity, but unless it's nearing all out efforts for those 4 minutes, keep the recovery time around 25% of the interval - so 4 minutes on, 1 minute off - 8 minutes on, 2 minutes off etc. The heart rate monitor will show you how hard you are running (roughly) by the percentage of max heart rate - 70%, 80% 90% of max heart rate for your age. Like others have said here, no need to do the maximum all out efforts unless you really need to or training for a specific event, but the interval does need to be a 'bit' uncomfortable. The rest days are needed to recover properly before going again, or they can run you down quickly. You can then schedule in your easier runs/activities around the two intensity days so that you are rested and not sore to make for a productive intensity session.
Once you are already well trained, how difficult is it to keep raising your Vo2Max? Ive been stuck for years with the same number and Ive tried all kinds of protocols and nothing.
losing weight will naturally increase Vo2
The concept of "increasing VO2 max" is flawed. They are really talking about improving aerobic endurance, since your metabolic rate isn't going to improve as you age because that's not how metabolism works. Lots of fancy buzzwords get bandied about with no real substance behind them. This video is a typical example.
@@jono1457-qd9ft Thank you for your response Jono. So what you are saying is that, if my weight stays constant, there is no amount of training I can do to raise my V02Max?
Where is the sweet spot between the benefit of intense exercise and endurance training causing atrial fibrillation and coronary artery disease?
I'm a runner. I like to interrupt. Yeah. Right. My turn. Yeah. Correct.
Someone knocked at my door, but instead of Jehovah’s witnesses at my door step, it was Dr. Attia asking if I have a moment to discuss VO2 max.
CORRECT
I'm 64 and have been fit at various times in my life. I worry now about pushing my heart rate too high. I can hit 165 or so and feel fine. Should I be worried about my HR if I feel OK?
No, while that is near or at your calculated max HR, if you are hitting it and feel fine, no issues. Your actual max may be higher. RPE is a better indicator if you are in tune with your body.
thank you, I truly appreciate the response. @@christopherhaak9824
I'm 48 and weighed 119 lbs. 2 years ago right before my colonoscopy and haven't put on fat or muscle since then and I'm 5 foot 7 inches tall. Maybe an ounce of muscle weight I put on since then?! Lol so my gumby genetics ass(I'm obviously genetically made better for endurance than putting on muscle mass) runs up and down its hallway for 4 minutes then rests 4 minutes then goes back to run up and down its hallway for 4 minutes. By run I mean I HAUL! NO BRAKES! Ended up doing 11 roundtrips in a minute so obviously I'm going for Zone 5. Last time it(the ass) did that it did a roundtrip to one end and back is 1 and did those 36 times and the hallway is like 25 feet long. I managed 36 times the 2nd time as well. I had a 37 VO2 max like a year ago when I had it tested. I'm getting a chest strap heart rate monitor delivered here soon. I had one that worked a couple years ago and got my beats per minute to 192. I'm sure counting seconds and beats it was around 180 easily today when I did the 4 by 4 by 4. If I don't do more roundtrips in 4 minutes increasing amount of distance every time (I do it 4 times a week and maybe next time I do 36 and a half roundtrips for example) does that mean my VO2 max is NOT increasing?! HOORAY I'm editing this 2 days later and I did 40 roundtrips the 1st 4 minutes and 38 the 2nd 4 minutes! I didn't eat anything for more hours this time but wasn't feeling hungry yet so I didn't wait VERY long. Can doing it on an empty stomach factor into how many roundtrips I do when I'm at least 5 to 10 pounds lighter?! Did I raise my VO2 MAX?! SO MANY FACTORS SEEM TO OVERCOMPLICATE THINGS GUESS I SHOULD SCHEDULE AN APPOINTMENT WITH A TESTER AGAIN!!
Given how VO2 max is calculated, wouldn't the easy way be to lose body weight, regardless of whether it is muscle or fat?
If you have lots of excess body fat it can certainly help improve your relative vo2 max (ml/min/kg). However a lot of well trained, lean-ish people can often see a drop in absolute vo2 (L/min) which results in no improvement in relative v02. Calorie deficits often lead to losses in lean mass as well a fat mass and can prevent athletes hitting the training volumes they do when calories are higher so this is probably the reason why
@@SennaMadeF1 Yes, and underfueling causes a drop in metabolic rate.
i mountain bike , and when I ride , its basically climb big hill , bomb down big hill , iThe climbs are between 20 to 40 mins long , and you usually pick a speed you can maintain to get you to the top at the same time keeping the intensity up , i try and work on the principle that i could speak if i have to but its not easy , and keep a constant load on my quads, but i dont take a break until the top , Should i be looking at doing it in intervals ?
Long climbs are good in a lot of ways. It is the only effective way to train for doing long climbs (and multiple long climbs). But HIIT (intervals) will almost certainly make you a stronger (faster) rider on those climbs, and being psychologically tough enough for long, hard climbs should make you a good candidate for HIIT. Invest in a heart rate monitor (transmitter around your chest or forearm, not on the wrist) and a bike computer to receive the data to show your current HR (and later your average and max HR and time spent in different ranges) and that also has GPS for speed, altitude gained, %gradient. Then do some riding so hard uphill that you can't go anymore (slobbering on yourself) to get an idea of what your max HR is so you'll know what % of your max HR you are hitting on different parts of your rides. Find a hill (or part of a hill) that you can do in about 4 minutes if you really push, i.e., you are at or near your max at the end. It should have at least a 10% grade. Then coast back down the hill, overall resting, spinning slowly for about 4 minutes (if you are Attia, 3 minutes if you're from Norway) as your heart rate comes down to maybe 70% of max HR. Climb the 4-minute hill and rest in between 3 more times. If you start the first interval already warmed up, you will be ready to cool down in 25 minutes. When you later look at the data, the HR trace on the intervals should look like a wave cresting to the right, just starting to level out at the end when you presumably are between 95% and 100% of your max HR (and you feel like puking). Shorter intervals work, too, and so do different ratios of interval length to rest time, but current research data indicates that 4 min to 8 min intervals work best. If you are doing 8 minute instead of 4 minute intervals and suffering that much longer, you probably don't have to do 4 of them to get the desired effect. Obviously, you are going to pace yourself somewhat in the first 3 minutes of a 4-minute interval, but try to hit the time target. The ultimate way to go about this would be to have your VO2max measured first, then start a HIIT program in addition to your recreational riding. Then you'd have a baseline with which to compare approaches and the overall efficacy of HIIT in your case. Genetics matter.
Edit out the interruptions!!
My goodness Mr. Mike, why would you steal Dr. Peter speech while he was speaking, and even making interrupting words, I can't be patient enough watching the full video, sorry Dr. Peter
Dr attia please don't interrupt valuable information frequently like this!,
Can Peter reupload the video but just mute him whenever he says YEAH or CORRECT? It's insane how often he feels the need to interrupt the man.
Interval conversation.
Goddamn, this dude cannot go five seconds without hearing himself talk.
This is the new popular name for increasing aerobic capacity by training in your target heart rate zone. It’s all the same stuff over the last 50yrs just a different logo.
Aerobic endurance yes. Aerobic capacity, no because absolute VO2 nax peaks at a young age, but aerobic endurance continues to improve with age and training.
couldn't watch this
If the humans with the highest vo2max would live the longest then high endurance athletes Like ultra marathon runners (50km and more) would live the most. But thats not the case. So theres something wrong with that theory. I am sure theres a Dose relationship. More is better but only to a certain point and then its getting unhealthy (training)
Good question...
You can be an endurance runner without a high vo2 max because you've kept your heart rate low and not done high intensity.
I definitely believe in the no bend over rule😂
Why does the “Kermit the frog+ ADD” keep interrupting Peter?
Manage your suffering. That's the difference between the average person and this type of training. The average person is not into suffering. In my younger years, i couldn't run worth a darn, torturous thing to do, but in soccer i never got off the field. I think of myself as average, but I'm not going to push myself repeatly to attain the no bend rule;.regardless of how much i want to go to Disneyland in my 80 ies with my great grandchildren. It seems extreme and not doable by the general public.. I think something is missing in our basic knowledge on how exercise aids longevity. The people i know who lived into their nineties were not extremists. The senior extremist in our area, die of complications of knee replacement surgery . I think there is more to this than brute forcing our way to the goal.
That's because the average person is not mentally tough.
@@christopherhaak9824 mental toughness comes in many forms
@@christopherhaak9824 Well what hurts more, average Joe running a 4 hour marathon or Joe elite running a 2 hour marathon? Don't exaggerate your mental toughness, that's just your pride talking.
I'm sorry to be this guy and this content is super valuable but apparently I'm not the only one: Mike, for the love of god shut up and wait for other people to finish talking!!!
If your mile repeats are close to 4 or 5 minutes your VO2 max is probably already great 😅
I feel like they were beating around the bush
He sounds like plankton from SpongeBob- “CORRECT!”
My goodness. The guy who keeps interrupting is so annoying. It makes the whole show pretty grating.
I am perplexed about the rationale behind sharing this video clip. Its content lacks clarity and tangibility, rendering it challenging to discern its purpose. The presence of interruptions further compounds the difficulty in comprehending the clip, ultimately failing to evoke any inclination to engage in further viewership or subscription.
Are you a cone head?
Couldn’t watch after 30 sec. Dude constantly interrupting is super annoying 🙄
Saying “correct” in appropriate places,just for the sake of saying something…
His constant interruptions are very annoying.
Does this guy think he’s hosting a game show? Why does he keep saying “Correct!”? So annoying.
I could barely listen to this.
4 sets of 4 minutes hard , 2 minutes rest Between? Once per week??
Can't see my reply, so I assume it didn't post
Maybe 3 or 4 min rest in between. See if it makes a difference after 8 weeks on something you have a good idea of how fast you can do it now.
Holy interruptions.
Norwegian 4x4 is best but it’s in peak for competition. 80-90% of training should be done in zone 2. For beginners 1x4min at 90% is enough. The difference of VO2max is about 3% so be smart!
Of your talking about raising health for VO2 max, (not sports performance) why are we not just telling people to work at 85% of max heart rate - to 90% for 4 minutes.. I am 58 years old.. not an athlete at all…I simply to 4 minutes of step ups at 145-150 beats per minute…my VO2 max is 44, my 90 prediction in the future is 47 based on current work levels.. much simpler
One eye is with Peter, the other is elsewhere. I’m sorry someone had too. You can make fun of my big ass nose or something in return.
Just get your hr upto vo2 zone and hold it there for 4 min. Simple.
I would of got much more out of this if Mike would have been muted!
Can Joyner NOT INTERRUPT for five seconds?
Please learn to listen, stop interjecting
Maybe he's casting from a different planet
2.52, cannot listen to Joyner interrupting anymore! Shame.
Holy crap can that guy shut up while Peter talks?!?
Mike Joyner can’t just let Peter talk without interrupting with a yep, yeah, exactly. Mike for your next podcast let the person finish his thought then provide yours. Unless you can’t help but be irritating and rude.
this dude is a real struggle to listen to
This guy's interruptions are super annoying. I couldn't finish the video.
Fuck. Talk about manners. The lack of it.
Mike please stop interrupting Peter. You will get your say without being obnoxious
I can’t comprehend what Attia is saying because of the constant interruptions.
I have to find another VO2 Max video because of this dumbass interrupting every time Attia speaks.
Not helpful
No offense but you talk over Peter is too much and interrupt him way too much as if it’s competition. It’s hard to concentrate on the topic at hand
peter should be careful using the word patients. he's not licensed or board certified, and doesn't practice medicine. he has clients, not patients.
Can’t finish this because the guest keeps interrupting. Terrible form
What about a zero inflammation diet. Makes vo2 so much simpler. No one is talking about this.
what's a zero inflammation diet?
@onsenguy exactly my point. No one is talking about a real diet for longevity. Actual foods to heal. And yes zero inflammation. Inflammation causes disease.
@@gibby5335 what do you mean by inflammation?
@@onsenguy you are what you eat. That includes things that aren't real foods. Why do you think people in their 20's are getting galbladders removed at the highest level in history.
@@gibby5335 Are you a bot? You've been asked some very specific direct questions and you're just giving the most general responses? What are you even talking about, and how does this relate to VO2 Max?
Seriously, Peter you should learn to shut up and let your guest speak -- especially when it's a subject that you're competitive about.
Why does the world of so called experts make things so complicated Just go to an oval. Do a stretch , do a 3-4 minute warmup jog, ramping up. Then do 20 seconds all out max sprint then rest 10 seconds, do this for 8 sets no more no less , sprint like a meth addict is chasing you with a blood filled syringe. Then do a 3 minute jog ramping down to a walk. Izumi tabata proved this technic in 1996 with the Japanese speed skating team that went on to dominate the winter Olympic . There VO2 max increased substantially considering they were already elite athletes. Only so this protocol with sprinting 3 days per week as it will be too taxing on your system . 8 rounds to the death . Anymore and it isn’t real tabata.
Dude this is so complicated lmfao do you realize you are equally complicated or worse ?
@@lederppz6202 I don’t realise my mental condition , thanks for letting me know. lol
You can't sprint all out for 20 seconds. You can run really fast for 20 seconds. You max out around 10 seconds or under.
@@scottymackay1801 Anaerobically yes correct , but the last 10 seconds your still pushing your physical system to the edge , although in to the aerobic side .
@@lederppz6202 Tabata protocol is not complicated.
He answered none of your questions..lol. waste of time
Cardio, but it will kill your gains
Mike is knowledgeable but needs to keep quiet. His style is hugely annoying.
Bro needs to stop yapping
This isn't even listenable. And guarantee it sure as hell doesn't need to be 11 minutes long
What an annoying AH.