Kalashnikov vs Sturmgewehr!
2016 ж. 16 Қыр.
3 156 765 Рет қаралды
The German Sturmgewehr and the Soviet Kalashnikov are widely and rightly considered the two most influential and iconic of the modern military rifles. While the German rifle certainly influenced the Soviet design, the two were designed with different intentions and goals. The Sturmgewehr was an attempt to blend the roles of rifle and light machine gun, while the Kalashnikov was intended to blend the roles of rifle and submachine gun - and yet they both reached largely the same practical reality.
Which do you think was the better system?
/ forgottenweapons
German army: "The guns don't need to last, we'll give our soldiers new ones when the old ones wear out" Soviet army: "The gun needs to last forever, we'll just give the same guns to new soldiers when the previous ones die."
No German Army ever said that
"Hey, why is my gun covered in blood!?" "No Questions! You get what you are issued. Move along conscript!"
German army: "No we don't give you new Sturmgewehr, because its fucking rare and expensive weapon, now take this K98 and go back to fight!" Soviet army: "Comrade it seems your Kalashnikov is dirty, take a new one in that pile!"
@@FalseDmitriy werent the MP40's making up the bulk of the German guns in the last few years?
@@cultofmalgus1310 No, kar98 was essentially the most used weapon throughout the war. It sucks but its true
"They're not super-cheap." >$132,250
Cheap to make
No gun should cost more than a house, unless you can live inside it
@Andrew Hacker carl G
why is it so expensive ?
@@tailsprower3570 ok thanks man for the reply
GERMANY: We need a smaller rifle. RUSSIA: We need a bigger SMG.
They met in the middle. The middle being Poland.
@@TheBananamongeris that why poland is so fund of rifles?
@@mhplayerronically, in a way, Poland's service rifle is the grandbaby of both the StG and AK Actually more like the Great Grandbaby Grot -> Beryl -> Tantal -> AKM -> AK47 Grot -> AUG -> FN FAL -> CETME -> STG-44
@@wisemankugelmemicus1701 amd then there is the Czech vz.58 assault rifle, being developed from the StG and resembling the AK visually.
@@ondrejhorky4976 No. The vz 58 was developed from the vz 52. It shares zero features in common with the StG 44
8:50 " the two countries came at this with opposite approches ." just like they did with poland
Underated joke
Ba dum tssh
bo-yaa rim shot--- nice one :)
Oh.
You mean OSTPREUßEN?
I think we can all agree on that the sturmgewehr is a beautiful firearm.
Yep.
Ehhhhhhh. For some reason the really small hand guard is a little off putting to me.
no, the buttstock and the foreend are weird for me
I find the AK far more appealing.
Its lackluster compared to that one semi auto last-ditch rifle germany produced. The blowback one. Now that is truly a beautiful thing.
_We should all have Sturmgewehrs! You get a Sturmgewehr, you get a Sturmgewehr! Everyone gets a Sturmgewehr!_
Wouldn't that be a Volksgewehr?
"No I'm not defending German technical superiority, I'm stating the FUCKING OBVIOUS!"
AK-47: *materialized out of nowhere and plays ussr anthem earrape*
Oprah meets Germany
AK FORTY SEVENS FOR EVERYONE!
Stg: *The guy who said the joke.* Ak-47: *The guy who said it louder.*
*while making it better*
@@darykeng while making it more crude you mean
Flying Tiger while technically you’re correct we now can see which one actually survived the test of time and evolved, the ak did while stg did not
@@agentc7020 while your somewhat correct your also failing to point out the over arching reason why this is so one was connected to a totalitarian facist regime that was destroyed by a world coalition which resulted in the downfall of the stg where as the other was connected to a communist totalitarian regime with facist undertones whichs own people eventually rose up against resulting in the adoption of the weapon which was used with the fall of said regime (as foreign influence was not a factor in this case)
Ak-12: the guy who killed everyone because they didn’t laugh
It's good that you mentioned cleaning. It's so VITALLY important to keep an AK clean! If you don't clean it thoroughly, every couple of million rounds / thousand years (Whichever happens first) there is a possibility that the action may get slightly stiff.
Because it's impervious to corrosive ammo...
Cleaning is HIGHLY important. In between real thorough million round check ups, Spit on it every 10,000 rounds or so and you’ll be good to go.
@@90zuk4 oh come on, it at least deserves the decency of being thrown into a pond.
@@latifoljic if those were the only 20 rounds you shot maybe it needed some more break in time?
I love this comment
The AK47. So easy, a child can use it. And they do. -- Nicholas cage (Lord of War)
My favorite movie
Ahoy?
This is horrifyingly accurate
Nearly 16 years after that movie came out, that unfortunately still remains true.
What about the bunny?
Can we just say that Sturmgewehr wins on being more fun to say?
Kalishnikov!
TheCptCoy This is a Sturmgewehr! It Gewehrs Sturms
Riplol Justforfu You realise Gewehr is a noun right?
Supercyzer It's a joke.
Supercyzer 'Sturm' is also a noun. there are many many english words that are bastardised because soldiers like to find their own terms for weapons or tactics/manouvres. Almost every US WW2 army movie i see with fighting Germans [or 'Gerries'] - almost every piece of artillery is a 'battery of 88s'. Did you know that '88' is a number? and more often than not those 88s were 105mm haubitser. 'MachinenGewehr' is 'shooting machine' but since German Command and troops aren't anally retentive an 'LMG' is simply a Leichte MachinenGewehr and , I suppose, a heavy would be 'schwerenMachinenGewehr'. SturmTruppen=Assault troops, right? Haven't the Germans stopped using the umlaut now, btw? We were taught that in a German Language class a few years ago.
The Type 56 was sold for $132,250? I Can probably get one for $50 in Africa
Tacocat04 you don’t have to deal with the ATF and American gun laws on machine guns when you’re in Africa
But your one will not be blessed by Gun Jesus.
and then someone will get you in Africa for 50$
But it would be a cheap fake
It's abt. $15 apiece for a Type 56 AK in Central Africa. Finding a good quality ammo may be problematic, though. In most cases you'll be offered a few packs of the Ethiopean 7.62x39 ammo manufactured in the mid-50s...
The whole SKS vs AK adoption thing, was mainly russia playing it safe. The SKS was a relatively simple evolution of ww2 semi-auto rifles, and considered a safe, reliable weapon to hand out en masse to their troops. The AK represented a fairly innovative design, with several radical trade-offs vs the weapons it replaced, as well as a totally new battlefield doctrine to go with it. The SKS was put into production in case either the AK, or the philosophy behind it, didn't work out. Once it was obvious that the AK was a massive success, they fully committed to it
not exactly. It always starts with a cartrige. They met the german 7.92 Kurtz along with an StGs and decided to make one of their own, to see what will come ofIt was done quickly, the war hasn't even ended yet, then theu anounced an engenering competition, with designing THREE pieces: a semautomatic rifle, a machine gun, and an "automat" - a submachine gun. None of the Designind Bureaus succeeded in all three, so they adopted each piece one by one. The SKS was made and adopted the first, they hoped it to come to the front line before the war ends. So it was only to find the best design for a machine gun and a sub, but with a requirement of using as many interchangeble parts with SKS as possible. and here Kalashnikov comes, than Degtyaryov catches up witsh the RPD
I think it was AKM in the 50s which became the definitive AK, because original AK-47 had issues with mass production and cost, and that gap was closed by SKS.
@@tsh847 This is 100% true. The original ak47 did have some growing pains, going from prototypes to production. The AKM solved a lot of those issues, and made a few minor tweaks to the overall design. IIRC, it went on to be the most produced firearm in history. Ian has a pretty good video covering the evolution of them, and why they were updated.
@@DmSereb True, but the reasoning behind the SKS was still a "plan b" mindset. Nobody knew if the assault rifle concept would work, or would go the way of so many other wartime inventions. The SKS was a far more conservative, and safe, option. It was just another semiauto rifle, but in a more moderate caliber. Adopting it wouldn't really change much from an army issued mosin nagants or SVT40s, other than being lighter and shorter. The AK was the radical new concept, that implied a major shift in battlefield doctrine. If it worked, the entire book on tactics and strategies would have to be rewritten. As it turned out, it was an overwhelming success. But in the moment, nobody knew how it would turn out. Plenty of other "revolutionary" ideas wound up in the scrap heap in ww2, they just didn't work out in practice
@@danbell3827 they just followed the existing masterplan of arms, when regular infantry carry "rifles", while special assault troops use submachine guns. they never thought that the performance of an "avtomat" may just a little lower than that of an infantry rifle, so they eventually came to an idea to give an avtomat to everyone and get rid of the rifles they already made, or put them to secondary troops like suit guards, or sell them to Africa
Lots of Sturmgewehr's are being used in the Syria war at the minute. Seen pictures of the rebels (possible ISIS) using them with scopes bolted on. Apparently they raided a government warehouse which had 5,000 in storage.
Recently saw a picture of ISIS having one welded to a remote controlled gun mount. They must have found a stash of them somewhere. Broke my heart seeing the welds for the mount and scope on the receiver.
Yeah that's heart braking to see fine examples of a very important and a very rare gun being smashed by idiotic fools
That wasnt ISIS. They arent being used. They dont have ammo for these rifles.
Probadly from former eastern bloc countries which used them shorty after ww2 and then adapted Soviet designs
I guess the MP44 can have "associated with terrorists" in common with the AK also now.
German weapons will always have a special place in my heart.
GERMAN ENGINEERING IS BEST IN ZE WORLD!!
@@mymindisdigital couldnt even develop a .50 cal HMG... or a decent semi auto rifle on par with the M1.
@@williameaton9058 mg-42. americans couldn't even make their own version of it and mg-42 is still a millitary grade weapon its a masterpiece, and mp40 was a decent smg in my opinion tigers were pretty deadly panzerschreck was heavier and deadlier than m1 bazooka
@@williameaton9058 Bruh, nations had aspects they were better suited with unlike the others, for example the US copied the original design of the Gewehr 98 to make their springfield 1903 design. German soldiers grabbed whatever PPSHs they could in the eastern front due to its stomping power and shock capabilities, russian soldiers also grabbed whatever MP40s they could due to their reliability, surplus of left over (in the field) ammunition and the fact that it fired slowly thus making it easier to handle.
Russian for me. German is cool, but I love Russian weapons.
"lOOk tHE gERMAns arE uSiNg aK's!" Every person watching Downfall where I live
@Jackie O'Daniel True that,I can't count how many times I had to spend 15 minutes explaining the difference to random people.
@Clownzar AK is a copy, thats the difference
@Clownzar AK is a lot tougher. Barrel doesn't overheat much, its waterproof, ice-proof, sand-proof.
Me: **HEAVY METAL SCREAMING**
@@DocMitchell69 Thats all wrong. On 3 April 1945 American troops began to occupy the city of Suhl. Weapons manufacturing was completely prohibited during this time. Hugo Schmeisser, the guy who developed the StG 44 and his brother Hans were interrogated for weeks by weapon expert teams of the American and British secret services. At the end of June 1945, American troops evacuated Suhl and all of Thuringia. One month later, the Red Army assumed control over the area, starting a civilian works project to manufacture weapons for the Soviet Union. By August 1945, the Red Army had created 50 StG 44s from existing assembly parts, and had begun inspecting their design. 10,785 sheets of technical designs were confiscated by the Soviets as part of their research. Schmeisser was one of 16 Germans for which a special department (no. 58) was created at factory number 74, later known as Izhmash. Schmeisser was appointed as one of the five designers of the group, together with Kurt Horn and Werner Gruner (both from Grossfuss) and Oscar Schink (from Gustloff), under the formal leadership of Karl Barnitzke (also from Gustloff). He was only allowed to move back to germany in 1952. The UdSSR never opened documents about his case, but due to the similarities between the StG and the AK, it is really likely that the german engineer built it.
That German report really is the best example I've ever heard of how the assault rifle massively changed combat. The fact that they could advance without stopping, and retreat fully with cover as opposed to how it was before shows just how incredible the shift between the older low ammo rifles and the new high capacity select fire rifles is. Its actually quite similar to the change in the US military capability was in such a short time between the Civil War with muzzle-loaders and the Indian Wars with lever actions.
The AK47: if it's jamming, you're stupid and broke something.
Any weapon: if it's jamming, you're stupid and broke something.
Dungeon Master If it's the L85, it's not that you're stupid.
So tell us weebo, all that you know about the L85 from your personal experience of handling and using one. I predict this might be a short or even null answer.
La Barone the LA85a1 could jam just by looking at...
The L85A1 was actually garbage, google the horror stories and you'll wonder how any of the poor bastards issued the thing survived. I was reading something about how some vehicle mobile infantry guys would keep some of their squad in the vehicle with the sole job of cleaning the guns. So some-guys would be on the ground doing their job as infantry, and the rest would stay in the vehicle and be a mini gun cleaning factory.
I remember playing a Medal of Honor game where if you played multiplayer split screen and it was Axis vs Allies, it pretty much came down to the STG 44 vs the BAR.
Brenden Pischke same story with medal of honour hells highway multiplayer.
MoH Vanguard, PS2?
@@alexandrelealpiresjunior1936 Nah, think he meant Frontline... Got, I miss splitscreen MP those days. Remember guys... We played on CRTs, 4:3. I remember 4-player matches on N64 and later, GameCube. When the TV was too small (Less than 30"), which was the case usually, you just shot at everything that seemed to move. MoH: Frontline, Sunrise, Nighfire... On N64, it was practrical GoldenEye only. Was banned in Germany att, but I acquired it@ small video games store from 'unter der Theke' ('Under the counter)🤣🤣🤣 And 'Hell's Higway' was Brothers in Arms, not MoH. Came out a few yrs later
Only if you picked the heavy weapons class.
Medal of honour frontline is class
It is now 2023 and I can confirm people still believe the AK was a rip off of the STG... Some people just refuse to learn new things.
During the AK-47’s development, over 800 former German soldiers were sent to the USSR to aid in its development. There is no denying that the AK was inspired by the StG-44.
In developing what became of the StG44 the Germans developed and field tested about 15,000 each of the MKB42(H) and MKB42(W) in 1942-1943. These were captured by the Russians. The MKB42(W) used a long stroke piston with rotating bolt (just like the Garand and just like the AK47). It was a little unusual in that the cylinder and annular piston were coaxial with the barrel to make it more compact but the principle was the same. The MKV(H) used a long stroke piston with a sliding bolt (like the FN FAL). What was clever was that the piston was placed above the barrel to allow the butt stock to take the recoil straight to limit barrel lift (a feature of the MKB42(W) as well. Take the MKB42(H) piston and combine it with the MKB42(W) rotating bolt and you have the AK47. The Sliding bolt tends to be a little heavier since the recoil is transferred into the receiver but the Germans didn't care since it was stamped steal and therefore heavy built anyway as stamped metal has to be thicker than machined. Part of the reason the StG44 was heavier than the AK47 was the use of stamped steel which tends to be thicker.. than the more lavisih use of machined parts in the AK47. -The USA also came up with an intermediate cartridge and used it on the M1. From late 1944 early 1945 they introduced the M2 which had full auto and a 30 round magazine. It however lacked the hand grip and barrel-buittstock arrangment thaty limited barrel lift.
I love how when people start freaking out about "seeing a kalashnikov in a WW2 movie" and then when I explain the difference between these two they get bored. People are people.
difference is one is based on the earlier one
@@ianvance9035 oh god, not again.
@@ianvance9035 no the parts have absolutely nothing in common, the only similarities ware the visuals(curved mags, wooden stocks) & the gas operational spring, that's like comparing a BMV motorcycle to F1 car, sure "they are the same thing"
Explain
@@gretelmorales6247 May I suggest watching the video?
Can somebody explain the prices of the auction? Sold for: $32,200 (MP-44) $132,250 (Type 56 AK) Why is the Chinese AK four times more expensive than the StG 44?
To do a quick summary, sold for dirt cheap, so people thought they sucked because of the price, so few sold, stopped selling, people realized they were actually awesome, prices skyrocketed.
Hans Maulwurf cause China wants money
these guns are very rare, ak 47s are pretty rare, the ak s that you see in the movies, wars etc are mostly akm
Because Type-56 is overall much better gun
@Matt Maschmeyer Plus you can actually find ammo for the AK.
STG 44s still turn up in 3rd worlds conflict zones .
Sure, but did it help *make* those conflicts?
Craig Wooldridge probably make it
Craig Wooldridge them hajis just get their “slaves/prisoners to do it “
I know the R-IRA used to like them quite a lot. Those along with the MP-40 and the iconic AR-18.
@@thetrippedup9322 pretty sure its still being used by ISIS troops.
2:14 - look at how the metal in the gun flexes with the shots. That's a really cool slow-mo clip.
This is a visual effect caused by the digital camera. In reality I dont think that the barrels flex...
@@wolframherzog636 I don't know either way and I'm extremely interested
Wolfram Herzog the barrels certainly flex, it’s called barrel harmonics
it was disturbing to me to see how much the barrels flex when fired. im wondering how much accuracy is effected and what can be done to minimize/eliminate the vibration
@@g.todsmith2854 There's no need to. You would prefer things have some give, especially at time spans represented in high-speed photography. Bend and spring back is better than break. It does not really harm accuracy because by the time the oscillation starts the bullet is already through the barrel, and if the gun is engineered properly (these two certainly were) then the rate of fire is such that the oscillation is dampened by the time the next round has to travel through. In any case, there's no way it would hurt the accuracy more than the wobbliness of your arms and shoulder holding the gun. Literally everything wiggles a little if you use a high-speed enough camera. All machines must be designed to embrace the wiggle, because trying to eliminate it would just result in every gun being built like a heavy machine tool such as a lathe, and they'd each weigh 500 pounds or something.
"every man a machinegunner" german Huey Long
Hugo HOM Dr. Carl Weiss in a white suit .
I'm gonna have to opt for the "chicken in every pot". Hate to be downer.
Based
Since people are still asking about the price, here’s an explanation. The Type56 sold at auction was a fully original and matching example. It’s also a bring back from the Vietnam war. On top of this it is a fully transferable machine gun. The rarity and condition of the gun makes it a collectors wet dream. The war trophy status adds even more to the price. There is also a 15% buyers premium that raises the price even further.
and literally every single point of that applies to the stg too, so you don't really have an argument.
@@Etherion195 Yes he does. Fully transferable extremely rare Type 56 took from the NVA as a war trophy. StGs aren't nearly as rare as that AK, rare enough to be expensive yes of course, but not That rare.
@@davell1078 How are Stgs not as rare as AKs, when they can collect these AKs all over the world in every single armed conflict even to this day? But please explain the term "fully transferable" to me. Maybe that's the issue.
@@Etherion195 you aren't wrong in a general sense but what he means is that this specific type of ak with its story and condition makes it a literal unicorn for those intrested in ak's. While the German gun is not as rare in a collectors sense since its type is more common then that specific type of ak in the United states.
@@zachdew9gaming985 ok, thank you. But can you still explain, what "fully transferrable" means? btw, i'm not a US citizen and don't have any clue about your laws in that regard, that's why i'm asking.
I didn't expect that gun parts would shake that much when firing (in slow motion videos).
Things move in there and metal bends.
It's better to flex than to break.
They virtually all do in slow motion.
You don't need to believe but even the thick steel barrel of an airgun is flexing when shooting.
And there's so much junk propelled out of the bore
Stg will always have a place in my heart along with the ppsh
I was fortunate enough to work at the Royal Armouries in Leeds UK for over 2 years. I fired both the Sturmgewehr and the AK47. Best job I ever had
Did you by any chance know a certain Jonathan Ferguson?
@@SgtNickAngel I do indeed, I was an IT contractor there.... I need to pop down and have a cuppa with him at some point
Never seen the side by side to see how much bigger the stg-44 is than the AK
And still lighter
@@NoNameAtAll2 Huh? 2:31
@@NoNameAtAll2 it is substantially heavier. An AK-47 weighs about 3.8 kg unloaded and an StG 44 weighs about 4.6 kg unloaded.
For a second when I saw the Thumbnail I thought it said "AK VS Stug" and thought, "Yes nice idea compare an assault rifle to a tank"
That would be quite a interesting video...
The 7,62 AK pierces through a rail... railway between Moscow and Vladivostok. The whole 6000 km or how long it is. And then it destroys 1000 Abrams tanks.
@@stibium4806 are you drunk?
@@Collectorfirearms Nope. It's a joke.
@@stibium4806 you had me FOOLED. Damn that was alittle too realistic.. don't scare me like that again!!
The tactical breakdown you mention was very informative Ian, thanks for making these videos!
I find the stories behind the doctrines fascinating, especially the bit of the unit testing StGs in the field. Great job, Ian.
132k for an AK? Comrade Kalshnikov is rolling in his grave right next to Karl Marx!
@@sidharthcs2110 Karl Marx defiles London with his corpse is a more accurate phrase.
It is what they refer to as late stage capitalism or the death of capitalism
@@nathanielweber7843 Marx wasn't even french, so why the hate? ;)
@@sidharthcs2110 So he was buried among his servants?
Comrade Marx last 40 years was living in capitalistic London and buried in capitalistic soil.
I am surprised the AK sold for way more then the MP 44!
Because its a special versoion there. A chinese one who was pointed out as bad but later they realised that it was actually epic and so the price is that much higher.
Because you can actually find ammo and use a full auto pre-ban ak47..
A full auto transferable Chinese type-56 is extremely rare in the United States, while stg44 are not quite as rare a lot of them were brought back to the United States after WW 2.
One of the reasons is that it is a milled receiver. And was not in production for long.
Milled AKs are on the rarer end of the AK scale globally. In the US, back when they were the AK, people thought they were crap, so not a lot were imported, and civilian production seized. It has since been discovered that they're actually cool and good, so people really want them. AKs might be commonplace these days, but fully transferable, full-auto milled AKs? They're a lot rarer than Sturmgewehrs.
Love finding the forgotten weapons channel recently, just a treasure trove of knowledge.
I live in the UK so gun laws are basically "...no.", but god do I want a Sturmgewehr, so streamlined and we'll designed in my eyes
Death: It’s time STG: Was I good? Death: No, they told me you were the best.
Oh Yeah yeah didn’t you watch the video? The AK is better.
@@ArcticTemper AK just copy of STG44, Bcuz THE POPULAR COUNTRY USSR WANT MORE BE POPULAR
Jaki Anwar It’s definitely not a copy
Bruh the only thing related in both is the gas block which is not entirely a copy its just that the AK took the StG and made it better in all ways
@@jackyanwar1242 shut up
good stuff as always
Listen up aks respect your elders
Good
good
Always interesting to see your take on weapons ! OTOH in this instance its also interesting to see your different ( if historically debatable ) account of their history of development and employment . I'm sure we could spend a long dinner evening discussing this topic alone !
man, I wish everyone was like ian. he's a breath of fresh air :)
Lighter than a rifle, but more powerful than SMG. Assault rifle, your handy primary weapon.
Was this how the soviet capitalists marketed their AKs xD
Read this in Ahoy voice.
@@griffin3447 Oh hey, another Ahoy fan!
@Reck Fredreck go search him
Sturmgewehr is only the translation of assault rifle. That makes the AK just another sturmgewehr in German!
Eh, yes. Funny that many people don't understand "Sturmgewehr" is just that. The term for Assault Rifle in Germany (to this date). ...how many Americans do not realise that? ._.
That's why it's the Sturmgewehr-44
*QUIET NORMIE*
wel,german dude invited the ak47 but russians stole it so ak is german gun in original
@@giorgigiorgitko248 English not your best language?
It is really exceptionally rare that you see such a reasonable, balanced, and historical-context including comparisons between two of anything let alone firearms. I applaud this great lesson in firearms history and apt comparison.
September 2021. Well after the auction, but the information is fascinating history, thank you Ian.
Funny that the scaled up SMG ended up with a more powerful cartridge than the scaled down rifle :)
bansheemopar they moved from different directions and both missed the best point due to inertia 😸
@@hrissan LMAO
Stg:son Ak:yes dad Stg: im proud of you Ak: thanks dad.
xD really cool
It has been denied countless times. AK: you are not my daddy, nazi bitch
@@jozseftoth8731 Denie something isnt proving it wrong tho. Just look at it and use common sense. Its obvious.
@@TheBlackfall234ut it is proven wrong many times experts stated. The Soviets got these guns, and checked their design, but they went on a different path with the mechanics inside
@@jozseftoth8731 just because you say its proven wrong many times isnt proving it wrong.
I absolutely love the technicalities of your speech Keep it going mate. Marius from UK
STG: My preferred weapon of choice in any WWII games.
Fascinating analysis Ian. One of your best.
You should be teaching at West Point. Your knowledge of small arms is impressive.
I thought if you are teaching at West Point, you had to be a Military Officer.
@@chrissilsby4312 They probably use 3rd party historians who have not served in the military when necessary.
Come on Ian...time for you and Andy to stop talking about it and have a 2 gun shoot off! You get a MP44 and a Luger, Andy gets the AK and a Tokarev. I'd love to see that!
Thank you for the captions!
*German engineering*
So good noone ever used it again.
No one used it? The Soviets copied the Sturmgewehr and only adapted it slightly while making the AK47. Without German engineering the Kalashnikov wouldn't even have existed at all. (Sturmgewehr is also being used by terrorist groups to this day, by the way)
Mark Kamphuis the AK uses a gas operating principle derived from the ME Garand , cartridge from the SVT series , only outwardly does it resemble the German design
The piston ànd return spring are probably a coincident too right? Just because the gas system works differently in the modern versions, does not take away that the Russians didn't 'copied the Sturmgewehr and only adapted it slightly while making the AK47.'
Kalashnikov didn't copy the STG44. Only took some inspiration for the shape and size, an has a similiar long stroke gas system.
I fired both of these at a gun range last week. Preferred the Sturmgewehr. This is coming from a man with no military training or shooting experience. Edit: forgot I made this comment, what I liked more were the sights, lower rate of fire and easy acess fire selector. And that the end of the receiver didnt knock my ear defenders off while the guy next booth was shooting a Dshk.
No insult intended, but of course the lower power cartridge is easier to shoot.
"with no military training or experience" is pretty much what most new troops came down to when these machines where originally devised. "Hey you, 16 year old boy! Yes you! Congratulations conscript, you're a soldier now. Here's a rifle. Go kill a few commies/fascists!"
These are military rifles so I think that's a fair data point.
You'll find the same case for the M4/M16
So, you're a complete noob, thanks for clarifying.
Excellent overview of both. Thank you!
In defense of the AK47 let me say that I was issued an old one in the Hungarian Army in 1963, with a machined receiver and it turned out to be an accurate and real low maintenance rifle. Before we took the oath we had to qualify on the range with three single shots at 150 meters in the prone position. The requirement was 21 points. They promised 3 days leave for a score of 27 or more. After I fired three shots in about 20 seconds, my score was 30! The group was less than 2 inches. The high score was the only one in the battalion. I have never gotten the three days leave though; that's socialism for you!
That is just military. Happens everywhere.
Username checks out
Doesn't have anything to do with Socialism
I've noticed after 15-20 rounds the accuracy declines. Barrel gets screaming hot.
Interesting assessment. As I understand it, the AK-47 was designed really as a means for soviet soldiers to lay down mass firepower during a mass assault. I've seen old footage of a regiment moving forward with armor while firing the AK's from the hip. In such a situation, accuracy isn't paramount. Also, from reading about US soldiers who used AK's in Vietnam; they said the weapon was pretty much self cleaning. Tolerances were loose and gunk got sucked in and spat out the action. Pour motor oil on it if it gets dry, and go. I would like to see comparisons of the various AK derivatives. Namely, the Galil and Valmet types.
Нет. АК - автоматическая штурмовая винтовка. Для поливания огнём, был хорош ППШ - 1000выст./мин. 71патрон в магазине и мощный пистолетный патрон ТТ. АК - это хорошая работа на 200-300 метров. Автомат будет на бедре, потому что он висит на ремне и готов к стрельбе. Если бежать с автоматом возле головы - руки отвалятся и не получится точно стрелять.
fazole a Statement made by a ranger during Vietnam Mentioned having a number for fun range gunning where you just Blast targets for killing time while reconditioning to an AK after is been awhile, and the ammo was free. never bothered cleaning them and would just dump the rifles into a locker for periods of time, where the bolt could sieze and parts rust. when they'd start the range again and an AK would seize like that they'd just use a boot or hammer to unlock the rust. and start shooting it again.
I remember back in the late ‘70s seeing an ad for, among other guns, an MP44 for $750 plus transfer tax. Problem was you couldn’t get 8mm kurz ammo back then. I almost bought one and sure wish I had now. I bought a Vietnam war GI bring back AK47 way back then and it’s definitely a very cool gun but I always wanted to at least fire an Stg44. The slow rate of fire on automatic always intrigued me and had to add to accuracy.
"The service life was figured to be longer than the lifespan of the soldier!" Hmmmm.
lifespan of the war, not the soldier
Very good, always useful to have the background to their development
Great discussion. It is very interesting how they wound up with almost identical formulae despite having different doctrine.
I'm sorry, what the hell is "grains"? Please tell me how much is that in the human "gramms".
A grain is a standard unit of measurement over here for very small things, 1 pound equals 7000 grains. Converting to metric, 1 grain equals 0.0647989 grams (or put the other way, 15.4 grains per gram).
Forgotten Weapons Thanks.
Herrman FEGELEIN It's a unit of measurement adopted a long time ago based on the weight of a grain of barley. This was common in medieval times and so was easily accepted as a standard. It has been standardized to 64.8 milligrams in modern times. It's still used as a unit of measurement for bullet weights and powder charges mostly from tradition nowadays.
***** Well, all I know is that here in Europe we use grams for bullet weight measures.
Zorn Gottes Wait... What?
Sturmgewehr 44 should be compared with the Stoner M16 they have many times more similar structural elements
In my opinion, Stg44 was an inspiration but it's not really a question which gun was a copy. Neither one. Ar-15 is yet another philosophy, different from Stg44 and AK. Again, in my opinion, Armalite looks like a sports rifle for those who know how well to shoot and operate it. It is also made lightweight from materials that were carefully chosen or had programmed properties. Ergonomic too. It's a very polished, technological design. I'd refrain from saying that any of these systems is a winners because goals were different. At the same time, each of them filled their niches with success.
@@tsh847 philosophy? lol )) read the history of the creation of this weapon, so as not to be ashamed. "Although the M16 was presented as an assault rifle that has no analogues in the world, upon closer examination, plagiarism is easily detected. The "ultra-modern" direct gas outlet was brazenly copied from the Ljungman AG-42B. The design of the rotary shutter is almost indistinguishable from the Johnson M1941. Most of all was borrowed from Hugo Schmeisser's StG.44: a linear layout with a return spring in the butt, a disassembly scheme with an upper/lower receiver, a sleeve ejection window with a curtain." but they have their own "branded armalite style".
@@DoomNsk I don't feel ashamed at all. Moreover, the discussion was about AK and Stg44, not about Armalite. Even more specifically it shifted focus from similarities to design goals. My answer to you was in the context of original discussion and I always try to be respectful to other opinions. I can hear you and hope that it concludes our little argument.
@@tsh847 aren't you ashamed at all? but this is in vain. your answer was to my message. and the essence of which is extremely simple.
I can see it in the stoner 63a definitely
The slow motion firing makes the vibrations so noticeable it looks like the whole weapon will fall apart after firing.
If it looks like that at normal speed, then yes that is cause for concern and something's probably falling apart. But everything moves like that in slow motion. At small enough scales of time, all materials behave a bit like jello. You can find slow-mo videos of stone and ceramic warping like rubber. But it's fine. Taking all that into account is a part of engineering. One eventually has to simply accept that nothing is immobile or perfectly solid.
All combatant forces in WW II came to the realization that most infantry on infantry encounters took place at much closer distances than they heretofore anticipated and that heavy rifles were not the type of personal weapon that was needed for this type of combat. The Germans, typically, beat everyone to the punch with the Sturmgewehr. Truly a magnificent gun. Cheers!
As a a kid in East Germany I once found a rusty Sturmgewehr leaning against a tree in the woods. As any self respecting boy would do, I took it home and it was in our garage until my dad eventually found it and gave me a lecture. Ach, das waren noch Zeiten!
Interessante Geschichte. Was passierte mit dem Gewehr danach?
@@TheMurtukov Mein Vater hat es weggeworfen. Ich glaube in unseren Teich.
@@teutonalex Einfach so veggeworfen? Wieso denn?
@@TheMurtukov In der DDR (Ostdeutschland) war Waffenbesitz illegal, besonders vollautomatische Kriegswaffen. Keiner wollte so einen Ärger mit der Regierung.
I believe he means well, being visited by the stasi wasn't a pleasant experience I believe
Fantastic explanation. Thank you so much. Very interesting and accurate.
Another great video, Ian. Im only an armchair enthusiast, but I have researched both guns a bit, and was really impressed that you nailed all the big important design characteristics and concerns of both arms; I've seen more in-depth videos that leave out or miss the context and goals of both weapons as well as in a nutshell their performance differences, but in a short video you really hit the most important. I will somewhat disagree that time has shown the AK to be the better gun, I view them more as different, but roughly equal. The AK's reliability makes it superior for poorer nations or partisans/insurgents, but I feel the STG is reliable enough for a professionally organized and supplied army. So it ends up being STG controllability vs AK reliability, and is kind of an even race, just each gun with its advantages. I will say, one reason the AK's use worldwide is due in part to reliability, but also availability. Soviet bloc and other nations produced enormous quantity of both the AK and its ammo, and distributed them all over, so I think that plays a bigger role in its ubiquitousness than it being a wholly better gun. But damn if it ain't reliable....
The StG was a genius idea at the time. Imagine playing an online shooter and you're the only player having an AR while everyone else is stuck with SMGs or bolt action rifles. But the AK is simply the more practical weapon in real life, where economy, supply and reliability matter. The fact this weapon is still used in every damn war 70 years later is a testament to that.
Well you can test the first scenario by playing Rising Storm 2 Vietnam, until 1969-70 the NLF team doesn't get any full autos besides MAT-49 smgs haha And we do quite well, just requires different strategies
Still in use... And yet, not a single major power uses it as their weapon. Not even the Russians who are three or four iterations down the road from it. War today is not all CQB in bombed out factories like Stalingrad. You need accuracy at range. The AK really comes up short there. It is a weapon for militia's and the third world.
It's a battle between father and son
just same figures
No, Kalashnikov has Shturmgevehr 44 with only the gas mechanism and appearance, disassembly principle,trigger, chamber lock are different. Sorry about my bad English.
More like cousins, Ak adopted some MP44 aspects, but AK-like rifles were in development in USSR ever since late 30s, until Kalashnikov put it all together.
No, Shmeisser didnt designed AK
Hugo's work in USSR impacted the mass production of most infantry arms, he had little to no impact on the designs.
Sir I really like your Videos...glad that i found that channel. Greetings from Austria
Fascinating video to me. Thank you very much.
I love the videos where you discuss the history and the design philosophy behind the weapons, fascinating stuff.
Never considered to compare these two.
+Tomartyr why? they're very similar
+Tomartyr yup basically cosmetic only
The AK was pretty much directly based off of captured MP-44's
TheAmazingScytherMan No, the principle behind the gun might have been but not much else... the only two things they share is a long stroke gas piston an a similitiary in cartridge
The basic concept and the ergonomics of the AK were based on the StG, but the internals of the AK were based on the M1 Garand and M1 Carbine.
Hugo Schmeisser was one of the developers of the assault rifle 44.In October 1945 Hugo Schmeisser was assigned to work in a so-called Technical Commission of the Red Army. The task of these commissions was to determine the state of the art in German weapons technology in order to incorporate the results into their own Soviet developments. In October 1946 Hugo Schmeisser was forcibly deported to the Soviet Union for several years as a weapon technology specialist as part of the Ossawakim campaign. This fate affected many weapon designers from the works of the city of Suhl. The German weapons designers were brought to Izhevsk on October 24, 1946, the capital of the Udmurt ASSR in the foothills of the Middle Urals and since 1807 the location of an arms factory (today Ischmasch). Little is known about Hugo Schmeisser's precise activities in Izhevsk between 1946 and 1952. How important he was for the Soviet Union was shown again in 1952, when all other German specialists were allowed to return, but his stay in the Soviet Union was extended at short notice by six months, so that he did not return to Germany until June 9, 1952. The purely external similarity between the 44 assault rifle and the AK-47 developed by Mikhail Timofejewitsch Kalashnikov often leads to the false assumption that Hugo Schmeisser contributed to the development of the AK-47.
Brilliantly argued, Ian. I have seen these points raised several times before, but always separately when discussing the developmental time-lines of each weapon. Having them side-by-side really helped visualise the different ancestries.It might also help to point out that the Soviets had created entire Regiments armed with SMGs - admittedly for use in urban areas, but the point stands. When the AK became available, these were the troops who were re-equipped first. Not those carrying the SKS, SVT, and so on.
Maximum range 300 yards!Well I am Serbian war veteran and we shoot on target practice not in war at that range both on single shot regime and automatic regime!On single shot regime AK 47 is very accurate on 500 yards and I also shot with ex Yugoslavian sniper who is almost totally like AK only with longer barrel and bigger calibre(i think 7,9mm and our AKs had 7,62mm In that time.Now I think whole Serbian army have 5,56mm standard NATO calibre) and I could shoot and didnt missed target on 800 even 1000 yards!But most important thing about AK is how that riffle wont "betrayed"you no meter minus 20 at winter or 40 on summer,are you in dust or water..One story from war-we were In foxholes for 2 and during afternoon started to rain and it kept raining whole night and morning so our foxhole turn in to swimming pool so big that we couldn't protect our riffles any longer from so much water!Tomorow round 11 we had Muslim attack(before was some 45 mins artillery barrage)and we both(me and my friend,my brother in arms!)were afraid that our AKs wont work after such heavy rain!But everything was OK!AK never betrayed you!Thats why that is best riffle in the World!But Sturmgewehr is not only such a beautiful rifle but everyone can see direct influence o AK!General Kalashnikov(RIP)was always angry how Sturmgewehr and AK47 dont have same(he said even similar) system.Sadly I never had Sturmgewehr in my arms or shoot with it(I shoot with M-4,M-16,FAL,Steyer,Thompson...)so I cant say did Kalashnikov stole from Hugo Shmeisser?But...I dont know?
wow nice
The Stg 44 looks splendid. Does the slower rate of fire mean it's more accurate? As well as it's more stable. I
Idk, the AK is also fairly accurate. AK’s being inaccurate is a myth
Accuracy tends to depend on the shooter If the lad decides to go full auto gun ho, then its inaccurate
Damn, I LOVE this channel!!!!
Very interesting show. Ian is one of the good guys! 👍
Sad that you didn't dissemble them back to back to show the "AK is a MP44 clone" camp how delusional they are.
he did this in another video, and that proved that MP44 is much more complicated;
Not a clone, no, but the Russians must have captured a few STG44s, and it would just be silly to try to claim it didn't have some influence on the design of the AK.
Mostly, it demonstrated to the higher ups that the crazy designers who wanted an intermediate cartridge select-fire carbine sized rifle were right.
you have more info on that one than kalashnikov himself
No, it wasn't. "Conceptually inspired by"? Yeah. In no way a copy.
Who would have thought that when you give smg qualities to a rifle, and rifle qualities to an smg, you get similar weapons
I love the slow motion footage of the AK where you can see it flex with each shot.
Great video very informative. What about the MP40 did this provide the same cover in retreat?
Nice video! Where to find the battlefield report? Would be interesting to read that.
It's translated in the Collector Grade book "Sturmgewehr".
The AKA 47 Looks Like It was Design by Star Trek Klingons.
Given that the Klingons were intended as an analog to Soviet Russia, you are perfectly right, Commander.
Qapla'!
Ian, You say “The Sturmgewehr’s were fired during the war with exclusively quite corrosive ammunition”. This is a very untrue statement. Most all German small arms ammunition during the war (1939-1945) utilized non corrosive primed ammunition. The Pistol Patrone 43 m.E (7.92x33) was designed utilizing the German 30/40 non corrosive primer. There was a few lots made that utilized the 88 type mildly corrosive primer the Germans had been utilizing since 1888. But this was less than 1% of the 7.92x33 ammunition produced during the war. The Germans In 1904 developed a non corrosive non mercuric primer, however it was not standardized or adopted as they found its lifespan was not as great as the primer 88 with a very low 15% mercury fulminate. In 1930 the Germans standardized a non corrosive primer, the type 30. However, they kept utilizing the type 88 mildly corrosive primes as it was more reliant in adverse storage and atmospheric conditions. The German air force tried out the non corrosive variations, but relied on the type 88 for combat ammunition as it was more reliably at high altitude atmospheric conditions. However, they overwhelmingly utilized the non corrosive types for training. I can provide any documentation in German you wish.
very nice presentation. Thank you
it is called MP44? I thought it was called the STG-44.
At different times it was officially designated MP43/I, MP43, MP44, and StG44.
oh, roger that!
Whenever it was called "MP" it was to conceal that it was intended as a rifle replacement. Because Hitler didn't like it. In order to still get permission to manufacture them, they said it was a maschinenpistole (submachinegun). Only in 1944 it was recognized officially as a rifle (as Hitler was told by troops that it was realy a good idea to replace some of the bolt action rifles with this). So, techically there may have been a short period in 1944 where they were stil called MP, but after that encounter with combat veterans even Hiter called them STG44.
Thomas Bögel Great information, thank you!
Taramafor Haikido yep Hitler was quite impulsive and stubborn. he wanted to have the last word on everything even if he had little knowledge about the topic.
I have to agree at this point, the StG IS pretty sexy but... The AK has a more aggressive yet sleek look to it. The son looks better than it's father.
Very nice video !! Well done!
I'd love to see a comprehensive review between these, the FAL / SLR / L1A1 and the AR-15 / M-16A1
The Sturmgewehr looks like everyone's first attempt at drawing the AK-47 But I think it's still a good looking rifle
Well, the AK is a russified stg-44
Yeah, the first time i saw the “sturmgewehr” in the heroes and generals video game i thought: this is the closest we are going to get to modern stuff, its basically an ak: its got the gas thing, its got the big sight that sticks up on the front, and it has a bent mag.
That is how you determine modern weapons? I’d look into why the 7.62 x 39 magazine was curved. Then why the 5.56 x 45 magazine can be straight. Then other calibers which are found with straight and curved magazines. The thing sticking up in the front is called a front sight which normally unless it’s a shotgun has a rear sight also. The gas thing is actually a piston driven system while the ar platforms most always use full gas to drive the bolt. AR-180 differed in this though. I’m not sure what I read here but guessing you place modern and old just by looks. Not realizing many and I do mean many of the guns today still use gun mechanisms long misplaced. Many cases gradually improved.
It always blows my mind when I see barrels flexing in slow mow shots. I guess it shows how much force is exerted pushing a bullet down a barrel.
It’s discussions like this that I come to Forgotten weapons for.
$132,250... That must be the most expensive AK in history! For a gun that probably cost about $50 to manufacture, that's crazy! "Not super cheap" is more than a little understating it!
Because it's a rare version, most of the "Ak 47" that you see in film series or documentary about third world country are actually akm
Considering you can buy an AK new today by American makers just as reliable if not better.
@@1014p the cheap American ak you talking about are semi-auto only. this ak is full auto.
@@alexm566 a cheap American AK will still be better than the Soviet shit made by deported brown children in Siberia before they died from tuberculosis.
I still findthe fg42 more interesting than the sturmgewehr :)
Yes the fg42 is really cool.
Always surprises me how big the StG44 is!
An AK is ... well, just an AK... A sturmgewehr is ... WOW!