3 Ideas About Autism that Sound Good (but are actually TOXIC!) - Have you noticed them?
There are 3 Toxic Attitudes towards autism that are being normalized in society, and this is not okay. Sometimes ideas sound good at first glance, but they actually hide a toxic belief underneath. In this video, we will break down the three toxic attitudes towards autism that are shockingly normalized in our society. From prioritizing neuro normative social skills to invalidating genuine needs, these attitudes can have serious consequences for us autistic adults. I will also share my insights on how we can challenge these harmful beliefs and how we can avoid them ourselves.
🎞️Timestamps:
0:00 Introduction
1:24 The Toxic Attitudes
2:01 Attitude #1
7:14 Attitude #2
10:28 Attitude #3
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When people say, “You don’t need help. You are so smart and capable, you just gotta believe you can do it and try.”
I get that a lot, too. I'm told that I'm very smart and I'll figure things out eventually. They don't want to help because they think I'm smart enough to fix things on my own.
@@desertdarlene exactly. It’s incredibly frustrating. It’s just away of saying I’m not going to help you but I hope you magically gmai fire it out.
Then what's worse is that even when you openly admit to struggling with a certain task, those same people will talk down on you for it, as if you were supposed to know any better.
I mask incredibly well but my actual functionality outside of pattern recognition n pretending to fit in is practically non-existent. I have developed a lot of mental health issues and am having meltdowns in ways one could describe seizure-like during moments of stress cuz I burned out n am being demanded I surpass the level it took me 5 years to work up to, being able to handle volunteer for a few hours over a weekend at a location hosting a special interest of mine somehow that means I can handle stress of work daily all of a sudden 😂 I'm gon end up ded or institutionalized pretty quick cuz it seems I need days to a week to decompress from an hour in person social encounter No believing I can do it is gon stop me from melting down on site I do it all the time of I can't step out when I need to
Oh, yes. And as an extension of the same attitude, being second best in a job interview. "You are so intelligent and have such a good set of skills for the job, I'm sure you'll get another opportunity soon enough". Yeah, well. I still didn't get the job though.
"Anyone can do anything if they just try hard enough." Because apparently, if you don't look disabled, all your limitations are in your head and can be overcome by willpower alone.
It's even more complex than that, though. A lot of the time we _can_ do certain things, and others may have even seen us do them, so they know we're physically capable in many cases. What they don't understand is that something they take for granted as a daily activity might require a Herculean effort and 10x the emotional energy for us to do. They do it and go about their day. We do it and feel emotionally drained or even devastated, needing hours or days to recharge. The stairs example in the video was a great one; you don't say to a person in a wheelchair "yeah, I hate the stairs too sometimes". But that person probably wouldn't starve if the only food was up the stairs-they may be able to physically crawl up them to save themselves. The difference isn't that it's "impossible" (sometimes it may be, though), it's that you're left proverbially beaten up by the experience to a degree an NT person would never understand. Knowing this, it's important not to put yourself through that even if it's technically possible. In short, what's truly _sustainable_ for us to live a healthy and happy existence is different, regardless of whether some things are _possible_ in a dire situation or not.
Let's see if next time I hear that I can be brave enough to say, "Have you done everything you wanted to do then?" I don't feel like anyone who really went to Hell and back to achieve a dream would ever come out in the other side and say something that pithy. This whole flip-the-script thing where I'm asking them to do/be for me what they're asking of me is... it changes everything!
I think it's more about creativity and passion than it is willpower. Or at least that's how I always took it. "I can probably find a way to accomplish anything if I had unlimited time and resources" though my therapist had to break me of this mindset because I do not, in fact, have unlimited time and resources...
@@ashleynance7038lol someone told me that in an attempt to get me to take on a co-workers work once. I replied "then you could do it just as easily if u really wanted to. I don't understand why you're bringing this to me." I didn't understand why that landed me in HR. Hierarchy, is the reason but I still don't really understand.
I get the feeling many people believe that if we could simply be more like them, we’d be happier i.e we should try to emulate NTs. Yeah, nah no thank you
Agreed 😊😊😊
Actually its if we’d act normal it is easier for people who dont like us to ignore
Maybe not happier, but learning what doesn't come naturally can make it easier to make positive social connections. . . which is necessary for mental health. . . And thus happiness. It's mostly consideration and manners that are beneficial.
Reminds me of my favorite Shakespeare line: "To thine own self be true...".
I believe NTs would be happier if they'd act more autistic.
Saying "you shouldn't put your own needs first" is saying "you should put what I want before your own personal needs" which is about the most selfish thing you can ask someone
The exact attitude of "you can come over to my house but you have to do what we do" is the reason I experienced SA when I was 10yo, having no idea that what was happening wasn't a normal way to "play house". I was raised to do what the other person wanted when we were at their place, no matter how I felt about it. I was never told that saying no to other kids or adults, or having any boundaries of my own at all, was even an option. Around parents and peers, what I had to say about how I felt was consistently ignored, or I would even end up punished by adults for attempting to express myself and my needs in a way that neurotypical people would accept. I was trained my entire childhood to ignore what my body and intuition tell me, lest something bad happen as a result of me trying to assert myself.
I spent more than fifteen years working in customer service, and, looking back, it's amazing how poor neurotypical people are at accommodating others. An example that always comes to mind is the drive through. It is extremely common for people to be hard of hearing, so I learned quickly that if someone couldn't understand me through the drive up rephrasing the same sentence could make all the difference. Even just flipping the order of words can help. None of my neurotypical coworkers got this, even when I clearly explained to them how to do it. Thanks for this video!
You deserved a raise in salary. Well done.
I agree. It wasn't the NDs who had trouble with sugical masks during the pandemic, it was the NTs.
As someone who is hard of hearing and autistic, thank you! You care. That makes all the difference.
@@SachiJones 💜 all the love!
@@MNkno great point!
Me being considerate of others implies others also being considerate of me hit hard. Don't think I've ever thought of it that way. Brilliant.
Yeah, I was never included in the being treated considerate it seems those with learning difficulties must caterer to not make them uncomfortable you're the bad guy if you get something wrong. Yet the one that struggles in the first places so why is the one that has to work really hard at everything must be considerate. where those that have it easy must be catered to
@@bunnyboo6295 exactly 💯
All my life, I've put others' needs before my own because I constantly believed it was the "right thing to do." Still, I realized, after being diagnosed with autism a couple of years ago, that it made my life incredibly miserable amongst my friends because my needs were never met. It gave people a reason to assign an expected role that I obliviously played out, that I was someone people could rely on by always giving them my undivided attention. However, none of my friends ever did the same for me, and when my health took a toll, my friendships were truly tested, and I was abandoned after a decade of camaraderie. My diagnosis and experiences have taught me never to neglect myself for the needs of others and that if I'm viewed as a narcissist or selfish, so be it-I will never live a life of misery trying to please or make others happy again. I will be my authentic self first and foremost, without any filters. I'll still be kind, but I cannot risk forsaking my happiness just for others' happiness.
This is something that I am still trying to teach myself; the realization that I am not being inconsiderate by trying to have my needs met.
I was bullied, which is common for most autistic people sadly, which only gave me an even worse outlook of other people on top of the fact that I adored alone time just really opened my eyes to the bullshit that both kids and nts commit, sometimes without ever being aware because we don't speak up. I'm glad you did because I didn't and I payed the price for it with agony. Congrats.
My experience has been similar. I was a very late self diagnoses at 50 formal at 57. But even my mother noticed I was clearly a lot more prepared to do more for my ‘friends’ than they seemed willing to do for me. I am the mouse who eventually roared and I am perfectly happy not to have such people in my life.
Do you think that your friends would have been unwilling to accommodate your needs if you had expressed them to your friends? Personally I have found that mostly we don’t accommodate another persons needs because we have no idea what they are. Explaining to your friends who you are and how this manifests will either clear the decks… in which case no loss to you because they were not really your friends, or create an open platform that would allow them to understand you and therefore accommodate you.
I’ve been learning to do this as well. I’ve always felt like I give my all and change what I do for others when they seemingly do nothing for me back. I’ve always felt like asking for what I want is selfish because no one else wanted it and would have to work to get there. I’m learning to ask for what I need without feeling guilty
Heard all of them already. My brother's initial reaction to my diagnosis as an adult: "you have to actively work on this now and change your behaviour. And don't think you can use this diagnosis as an excuse all the times! My reaction: anger! How can they dare. I have heard so many times " he/she is like that, accept it". Well then, you have to accept me as well as I am.
Whoaaahhhh, well, thank you for being an ....not understanding at all 🙈🙈Edit: With this I refer to what your brother said, not caling you not understanding. XD I´m off contact with my family, but somehow I can hear them saying this, too!! Yes, they would be like this.
Exactly so. We need to have deep respect for other people : for who they are, with their unique gifts and sensitivities. In my experience the non typical are extra gifted in many areas for not spending so much time fitting in. One trait they share (again in my experience ) is being extra truthful and less self conscious or manipulative .
@@annhetherington4266 🧡🧡💚💚💜💜Have a nice we!
Yeah, why is that when it comes to someone with a disability it's are fault for not trying using it as an accuse. Yet we must accept others for how they are.
my family were really confrontational about it in till my aunt who is normally the one who leads 90% of family group activities and events was sent on a neurodivergence course by her work who made it mandatory and my mother told her to go on the one she did to get a semi decent understanding and now 90% confrontations have gone down to around 5 percent instead which is a rather drastic improvement which i think is rather good because quite a few of my younger second cousin's have displayed the intill signs i did of being autistic so i think it is rather good that my family are so supportive and understanding. now the only person who tries to change my patterns is my father but he is more off what would be baseline then i am so he aint really a issue
I can so relate to this. I wish neurotypical people would look at their attitudes and responses to us rather than making us constantly feel we’re the problem. It’s hard enough trying to identify our own needs without constantly worrying about being socially acceptable and fitting in or not causing attention to ourselves. Life is so difficult to navigate as it is being autistic and the lack of understanding or empathy from most neurotypical attitudes really makes existing so much harder let alone living life and enjoying life.
Facts
At age 61, I have always found that I am the one expected to give way to others; nobody ever considers my needs. It is why I have withdrawn from society and live like a hermit now.
I know how you feel. I am 66, and I have many times had my views undermined by family members. I am always the one to go over to their side while letting my own opinions go. An example of this is I try to eat very healthy. But I'm not encouraged to discuss it, and when I try to say things, the family acts annoyed or put out. Yet when we have events together, I always wind up eating their typical diet choices. So I compromise all the time, way more than they ever will. Not just about food.
@@jwgriswold I couldn't agree more. We often chose things that we believe are logically right (like eating healthy - same here) and it often gets trashed as nonsense. We are made to feel in some way embarrassed or ridiculed for our thoughts, ideas and beliefs - yet deep down, we know we are correct, though we end up being convinced we are wrong and give in. After all, isn't the majority always right? Well, no, actually!
"Be considerate & it's selfish to put your needs first". I bought into that one for most of my life and finally realized it was toxic beyond measure. And that it's not expected by people who love you.
I used to do this, was a total doormat/people pleaser. Found that it was all one-way....when I ask my needs are never met, but always expected to bend to other people's. Not any more.
Aso very wrong, to take care of others you need to take care of selfcare first , or you cant really care about others sufficient. Isnt that in all the service and medical jobs a thing. Its toxic and really shoulsnt be as much used as it is, because you need to be able to care about youreself, to care about others fully.
About "masking," I'd like to hear you address the nature of "internal masking." I.e., the psycho-emotional cost not only of presenting a facade that seems to conform to social expectations, but of actually manipulating one's own feelings, thoughts, internal "parameters," to conform to what one thinks...as signalled by the exterior world...are the normative realities of EVERYBODY'S inner life. It is now occurring to me how devastating this has been to my life.
6:00 There was also a TV show (maybe 15 years ago) I can't remember what it was called, but they told several different families that they were being sent on luxury adventure holidays. What actually happened was they were sent to remote locations in different countries where they didn't know the language or culture, and they had to work it out. Literally in one case, in a slow leaky boat up a river sharing their space with caged chickens. A workmate remarked to me about how cruel and abusive this show was, and I'm thinking "This is pretty much my life."
That seems like such a cool experience though! I can not imagine the thought of such an experience being "abusive" as a person who is naturally curious about the way the other side lives
I really liked that you mentioned that you can advocate for yourself even if you are the minority. Also I identify with the whole I'm being selfish for needing anything from anybody. Having been raised in a dysfunctional home as well as being autistic (self identify) I'm always sacrificing my needs to please the rest of the world 😢
Insofar as music being played relatively loudly in eating places, such is really annoying and depicts a total lack of appropriateness for a specific situation. I find, generally speaking, eating place owners and staff have no idea of what type and level of music in these environments is suitable.
@@cybertrekker4274music is a really personal thing, I don't want to hear anyone else talk or know they even exist when I'm eating it causes me to shut down and unable to eat no matter how hungry I am. But I avoid eating out as much as possible to avoid being in those situations. Each person has different needs, your desire to socialize while eating is valid, keep checking out different places, I'm sure there's one with no music and dozens of conversations going on at tables around that'll provide you with the atmosphere you need. ❤
My mother grew up being told she was a burden to her family and she never asked for help from anyone which made it particularly difficult for us when she got old as situations would have to get really bad before we could do anything. It's something I've inherited a bit of.
@@PaulMansfield I feel like that most times however I'm getting better at gauging where my limits are, where as before I would behave as if didn't have any needs or limits to my capacity to function. As I'm much older nowadays I realize that my abilities don't stretch as far as they used to. 🤣
@@PaulMansfield i understand, i'm in the same situation as your mother and only now learning that my needs are valid and i can ask for help. However 6 decades of being told the opposite makes it difficult to internalise a new way of thinking, as much as i understand it intellectually.
Wow I’ve been wishing for a sensory room at work so I can hide from my coworkers when I’m feeling overwhelmed, but you’ve just helped me realize that I shouldn’t feel like I have to hide in the first place. Thank you, Paul ❤
Sometimes we just need to be alone and hide from the world sometimes. That is valid. Don't gaslight yourself into thinking that you don't need time to be alone to decompress. A sensory room at work is a reasonable thing to wish for, even if it is impractical for most businesses. I have made it a habit to take breaks in my car because it's a quiet place where I can actually be alone on my break. You shouldn't feel like you have to hide, but you also shouldn't feel like having a need to hide is a bad thing.
That was my son last week when we were visiting family and they were being too loud. I saw my son, who is 3yo, try to go into a random bedroom with his blanket and tablet, so I asked him if he wanted to go into the bedroom we were staying in, and he said yes. I stayed with him till he was ready to come down. And the entire time I was told I was parenting my kid wrong, that he needs to adjust according to the rules of the house, and other stuff that just doesn't work when you adjust your lens to my son's sensory processing disorder and autism. Very frustrating having to force him to fly up too when others dont want to fly down..
My sensory room at work was the bathroom…where I would go to cry when I was overwhelmed.
@@stevenpitera8978maybe you should share this video with your family. I am sorry they are rigid and unsupportive
@@stevenpitera8978 Yeah, my mom got a lot of flack for seeing how hard I was trying and accommodating me. It pisses me off that the good parents who have the eyeballs to see when their kid is doing their best tend to get attacked by other people when it's already so much harder for said parents to have an autistic child. Please hang in there for your son, I love and appreciate everything my mom has done and he will too, a loving accepting parent is worth everything in the world to an autistic kid.
Three big NOPEs from me, the first one particularly. We have social skills already, they may be different, but they're there and in many ways they are better. Saying "autism is a superpower" lands badly with me. I think maybe because it's othering, it erases so much and takes away the ability to frame the way I prefer - as just a person with my own strengths and weaknesses just getting through life like any other person.
The "golden" (do unto others as you would want yourself) rule can also lead to a similar sort of toxic attitude, since it assumes that other people have the same wants and needs that you do. One that comes up for me a lot is being treated as childish whenever I don't understand something, or I miss subtext. Infantilization is bullshit, and I can see the person in front of me doing it, but it's hard to call out. It's all tangled up in a few different toxic ideas. It's why I get so upset when people I don't know well call me cute. There's a thin line between the harmless compliment and diminishing me.
The "do unto others" is a good idea, in theory, but it falls short because people do want and need very different things. After my sister went through a break-up, she wanted someone to sit and cry with her, but I decided to do unto her as I'd want her to do unto me if I was in her position, so I left and went and made her a sandwich and she was super angry at me.
The opposite of this would work so much better "don't do to others what you wouldn't want done to you" for example; don't assume that others want and need the same things that you do.
I usually add the inversion of the golden rule, a "do unto yourself as you would want to do unto others" It helps remind me to be considerate to myself too
@@seankenny174 to each their own 😁(pun intended? 🤔I think?)
"The golden rule" doesn't necessarily imply you should assume everyone is exactly like you. The point of it is to treat other people how you would want to be treated. And if you think about it, how do you want to be treated? I assume you want others to respect and try to understand your needs, and treat you according to that? Now, if you do to others what you would want them to do for you, you see how it can be a good rule to live by? That's at least how I apply it, because I think that was the intention behind the saying.
This made me tear up a bit. The part about relaxing social norms felt like a warm never-recieved hug.
My initial reaction is whose being selfish? It is all about forcing us to conform. To have their kind of communication, to have no needs of our own, to have to do everything in THEIR prescribed way. Basically, how dare we be different. Also, it's not just that we don't like certain things, these actually cause us real stress and burn out. Usually people make comments like this out of ignorance. It is very minimising to have someone undermine differences in this way and with the underlying attitude that we are the problem that needs to get with it!
My initial reaction to hearing those three toxic attitudes is that I need to stop being toxic to myself. For example, my mum says my excessive talking is "intolerable", so I've been trying really hard to stop this. I am halfway through my Autism assessment, so I am just learning to navigate this. Before I knew about Autism, I bought a van to convert so I can live on the fringes of society permanently alone and not upset anyone else because I'm different. This is a huge journey.
Yep, this is genuinely useful. I've known I have autism fr as long as I remember almost, and I am like 98% sure I went through ABA because I lived in Alabama when I was diagnosed and for several years after. Literally on May 3rd this year KZhead decided to personally attack me and throw all the " You have Autism and here's all the ways to self care and stuff " videos at me. I feel like I am relearning how to actually be able to find happiness, but I think that I am also uncovering a lot of trauma in the process. I saw a comment somewhere recently that was basically "most mental health professionals don't know what a genuinely happy autistic person looks like because it is so common for us to be abused and refused the right to develop agency" or something along those lines. So far I think I am glad I found this little corner of the internet.
💖💖I for myself haven´t! know for the longest time. Only about 2 years ago I got my ADHD diagnosis and only then I learned more about ASD bit by bit and that it´s not at all always connected with savant syndrome and things like that. And then to learn from autists on YT that it oftentimes shows different in women so that the skills profile and other traits are less deviating/more homogenous? Noone tells you that. Idk in some way I still wait for someone coming after me and yelling, you don´t belong there, you´re just an oversensitive inattentive daydreaming freak who don´t know when to speak and when to be quiet.... 🙈🙈
My therapist has no prior experience with individuals with autism, but somehow, she just gets it. She hears me trying to say that I know what's right, but that I don't like it, that I prefer my way and most of the time have various reasons supporting my preference. She asks me routinely when I least expect it, but most need to, "Want to suggest an alternative" or "I don't believe I quite understand, can you help me understand." I've had a total of 5 therapist in the past two years. My therapeutic relationship with them being short and not very therapeutic, but she just gets it. She gets that I do things my way because I choose to (sort of).
That's awesome! I hope I can get a therapist like that 🤦♂️ but of course I have to actually start going to therapy first 🤦♂️
🥰🥰👍🏻👍🏻
Good ones are hard to find
@@bunnyboo6295 I figured. I've heard too many stories about bad ones to think otherwise.
@@crweirdo8961 I think its got to do with money type of insurance. When your poor you sent to ones that couldn't get people to pay to sit with them. If you got a disability are poor have and issue where your forced to have proof of showing to one your suck with the crappy ones. quality ones are one in a million so people would be willing to pay making them unlikely to except insurances that don't pay much. They full of willing paying patients so fast it's hard to get accepted since they are booked up.
For attitude #1 it’s like, social skills should mean you can navigate social situations with many types of people. Not just “normal people” I first taught myself neuronormative (is that the word you used?) communication style right after I started my ADHD medication and actually oiece together some unwritten rules and have the attention to catch and implement them. Then I learned the type of social skill a restaurant server has, and THEN I had to readjust because I was talking to other neurodivergent people like they were neurotypical, creating a barrier between us. Either they couldn’t adjust to me, or they could and we were both just masking. It takes “social skills” imo to be able to communicate “hey I have a hard time with sarcasm, does that mean X?” And “hey it’s loud here so I’m gonna go over there if you want to come with” and just straight up not talking when I don’t have anything to say or am tired.
Absolutely! When he first listed the 3 different attitudes #1 was the only one that I immediately recognized as toxic. Neurotypicals routinely have enough social skills/communication mishaps and even disagree with each other about what social skills are right or appropriate, so much so that the idea that "autistic people need to be singled out as needing to learn more or better social skills" is absurd. I believe that some social skills should be a taught to everyone along with respect for and awareness of people who socialize and communicate differently. Ideally this education would take place early in life, might even help with identifying more autistic kids.
Most NT men have great problems getting laid (at least it doesn't happen very easily), so why should autists be expected to have good social skills. NTs for sure don't have them theirselves.
If NT cultural expectations had to be explicit, instead of communicated through non-verbal, passive-aggressive behavior, I think even they would see how silly it is. I like that you pointed out how kind people are when they don't expect you to know their cultural rules. Rick Glassman talks about how it is about managing expectations. I enjoy watching him interact with his guests (Take Your Shoes Off podcast) and how well they adapt and accept his rules. It takes effort from everyone to make society welcoming to people with different needs. We're not the only ones who stand to benefit from changing expectations.
A culture I really like is simulated flying in a group. It inherits many of the cultural hallmarks of real aviation. "Mistakes are to be learned from", "If you see a problem, speak up", "Everyone can speak up", "Say things explicitly; or have them in a written contract (standart operationg procedures), "use specific phrases to mean specific things (Radio brevity)", etc. This makes for a rules-driven, explicit-statement-driven communications culture that is just bliss for me as someone on the spectrum. I wish this was the societal norm, at least in professional settings...
That's really interesting. Is there an episode that you would recommend starting on?
@@theuglyhat8718 If you know Bill Burr, that was a great one. Otherwise, I would suggest starting with someone you know as a guest. Probably don’t start with a Bobby Lee episode, though, since it would give a weird idea of what the podcast is. I hope you enjoy it!
@@GeFlixes That does sound like it would help create a welcoming atmosphere. My grandfathers were both radiomen, and both probably on the spectrum. I think it worked for them for the reasons you mentioned. Well-defined rules reduce stress so much and allow us to thrive, while not handicapping neurotypical people.
@@sarahjensen2473 Oh, that´s an interesting topic, how communication works in this space compared to others.
Excellent video. "Everyone has to do things that they don't like sometimes." Yes, but not everyone has to endure what feels like torture on a regular basis (often while pretending their hardest to not be bothered). Let's not create false equivalences here. All my life I struggled with debilitating anxiety, and people treated it like it was just some minor inconvenience I could just "get over" by choosing to not be anxious or something? As if my problem was just that I wasn't willing to challenge myself or refused to be even mildly uncomfortable. Yeah, I have complex PTSD, and I have regularly endured levels of discomfort most people would find intolerable and incapacitating, and I've done it while effectively masking and not even appearing to break a sweat. It's not a choice for me to experience this kind of anxiety, and it's not just a minor inconvenience or discomfort. It sends my body into a survival response, stressing me out and torturing me on a daily basis. But yeah, sure, everyone deals with that, right?
My partner actually told me to 'think happy thoughts' or 'stop thinking about it' when I first opened up about my depression. DOH why did I not think of that? As if it was that easy. I am now thinking the depression and anxiety are symptoms of me being ND, not the cause.
@@realfingertrouble Exactly. I'm finally seeing that one reason many NT people have a _very_ hard time understanding our struggles is simply because _they think that they do relate._ They've experienced something similar, even if it's a lot more mild and fleeting, and then assume they know what we're going through. When someone thinks that they know something, they're not open to learning, whereas when they're consciously aware that they _don't_ understand, they may choose to learn it. This applies to struggles autistic/ND people might have that persist throughout their lives, but in NT people are normally only common during formative years. They grew out of it or overcame it, so they assume everyone needs to do that (or even is capable of doing it). This feeds into the assumption that we're "lazy" or "weak" because the solutions that worked for them or came naturally as they matured don't work for us, or never come at all. In short, thinking you already know something prevents you from learning it.
@@ryo-kai8587exactly. It's like the NT people claiming to be 'a little OCD'...what they coildn't leave the house and were completely destroyed by exhausting repetitive tasks and movements? Oh they mean they are anal about organisation! It's that kind of reductivism that is indeed exhausting and depressing....the difference is yes NT people can be socially anxious or awkward or obsessive or depressed....but do they flee social engagements because of it? Do they have a complete meltdown and rage fit because the music is too loud or they said something dumb or there's too many people there? The answer is usually no. It's about it being a functional problem, or a problem you endlessly have to think about and manage. Not a passing thought or worry, it's front and centre and stops you doing things and avoiding situations entirely. This isn't 'I don't like parties' or 'parties can be a bit draining' more 'I can't go to the party cos it's bad for me'.
Also, my mother accused some of my friends and I of being selfish because we do not want to be cured of our autism.
Society has weird ideas about what is and isn't selfish. See also the people who say suicide is selfish.
There is no cure because you aren't sick or broken or need curing. It's not cancer or mental illness. It's processing differences.
Yikes, that's messed up, you have my sympathy...
I keep getting frustrated about how people try to find an alternative mental disorder instead of just accepting that I have autism. And they will most often choose to label me with disorders that can be treated with a pill. The reason why this frustrates me is because, people will just continue to tell me that I need to take more and more pills, and therefore they will continue to be disappointed in me when my sensitivities don't go away. And they assume that I am not taking medication already. And for some reason, I always find that the people who feel closest to me are the ones who act the most oppositional about the things that affect me the most. Whenever I told total strangers that my neighbor in the condo unit above me (who was 19 years old) would throw parties with all of his friends (they would wrestle and land on the floor (my ceiling) over and over again) and cause me panic attacks) they would empathize with me. But when telling a close friend or family member about this, they wouldn't believe any of it, because they said that it made no sense that somebody would do that. And say that all apartment and condo complexes are going to have noise if someone lives above me (mind you, I have had a new neighbor for the past 5 years and haven't had problems with him, because walking around on the floor is a lot better than wrestling and landing on my ceiling). This is the same attitude that I get about my autism. Acquaintances (and my ex and my supervisor at my last job) told me that they could see my autism. Close family members don't seem to want to believe that I have autism and seem as though they don't want me to have it. And this only bothers me because they are going to continue to try and fix something that can't be cured. So they will continue to tell me to take another pill, whenever they decide that they don't like something about me, and then wonder why I feel the need to be perfect (maybe they want me to take a pill for THAT too, because I am not supposed to think like a perfectionist. But then if I talk to them a different day and tell them that being a perfectionist is an autistic trait, they will change their mind and act like it's normal (that everybody does that). And they wonder why I have such a hard time going to family gatherings. I feel so selfish when I have to leave the room and go for a walk, or do things to accomodate to myself when I am around friends and family. I will tell them, for example, that I will need to get a hotel room if I drive to Saskatchewan to visit my grandparents, and family members will be like, "Well, you could probably stay with your aunty for a few days instead (she has a house full of kids over there)" and then they will get irritated (or even offended) when I don't take the offer. And so I convince myself that my mental health will be better protected if I limit my interactions with people, when they act misunderstanding and get irritated with me. And the thing is, I accomodate to MYSELF, and I still get that kind of attitude towards me. And that's a bit depressing.
To point 3, I have found that when we ask the group to accommodate for our need, we can also make the environment more comfortable for others who would usually consider it a "minor inconvenience". This gesture can, as a result, be appreciated by others who would normally just "tough it out". I find this thought helpful when advocating for myself as I can reframe it from "I'm being selfish" to "I'm speak up not just for me, but also making things easier for others".
Yes! Thanks for saying this. I was struggling to find the words.
@@RosieSenjem it happened to me recently where I was at a gathering and had to speak up. Afterwards one of the other people there thanked me for speaking up as they too had been bothered by the thing that was too much for me. It reminded me of the idea that when you make the world more inclusive for those with disabilities, you also make it easier to deal with for those without them.
I’ve run into this phenomenon where I have been reassured I can vocalize my needs and ask for help, and then when I do (to the people who said I can) it suddenly feels like I’m asking too much from them. I do understand it’s a very thin line between selfishness and putting others first and I’m trying to find that middle ground, it just hurts so badly when I trying to make steps towards self-advocating my needs and then those people seemingly do a 180 on that support. It’s wracked my mental state in the past and makes me more hesitant to say I have a problem to anyone. I don’t want to bear my problems alone, I’m not all that prideful about it. I’m more terrified of my needs and feelings being invalidated.
I have personally experienced this to no end, and I honestly believe it's a result of western culture and societal norms regressing into transactional, value-based assessments of who and what a person is and whether or not an individual can use them for their needs while incurring the absolute lowest "friend debt" possible. The ideology of "what can you do for me?" rather than "what can we do together?" Too many people have become accustomed to instant gratification in one way or another, and it has seeped into the interpersonal space.
This video made me cry. It's so fucking validating to hear someone else say these things. Especially around asking for help and accomodation. The thing you said about group behaviour, how were contantly pushed to obliterate ourselves and our own needs for the convenience of others really hit home. I personally have a really hard time even accepting that my needs are real and valid, since they don't fit into the neurotypical mold, making me ashamed and fearful to ask for them, even if i know that people care and want me to be comfortable. These are some real shitty problems. Thank you for making the video.
I was in a therapy group once, where one of the participants had a very small and nervous dog. This was not a well-behaved dog, it would constantly move around, focus on me in particular, bark, and behave in an attention-diverting way every few seconds, for the whole hour and a half. I was totally unable to focus on the group and the conversation, because the dog's constant behavior prevented me from settling into it. The dog's person made no effort at all to calm or control the dog, though it was on a leash. I asked, politely, quietly, if the dog could be excluded, but I was told that if I had a problem with the dog, I should leave the room until I was able to come back. I tried again to say that the presence of the dog's behavior prevented me from functioning at all. The group leader put it to a vote, and the other eight people, mildly embarrassed for the sake of the dog's person, said they didn't MIND the presence of the dog, though they ALL agreed it was disruptive to them, the neurotypicals. Unable to participate, I had to resign from the group, and then my leaving the group was held against me when I attempted to join another group in the same clinic. It was MY job to somehow not have had that problem in the first place, and then it was MY job to endure unbearable disruptions, and I was told I had failed basic group participation, because I couldn't JUST BE OKAY with a dog that no one else was having a problem with. and because I had failed, they said, I couldn't be trusted to belong and fit into another group, even though the other group had no such disruptive presence. I knew it was not fair, but I hadn't figured out how that wasn't fair, when they voted that the dog had more rights to belong to the group than I did. The dog's person wanted to bring her dog, but wasn't dependent on it for functioning. In the end, I had to quit the whole clinic. And this was supposed to be 'trauma-informed care.'
I have always been told "be a problem solver, not a problem maker" this has made me feel like I have to "solve" all my needs on my own. If I go to someone and talk about it then i am inconveniencing them or being a burdon. Many times this leaves me suffering alone and thinking that I have to.
I ended up settling on the middle at "be the problem"
I need to start sharing your content with my coworkers. I see ABA creeping into my school more and more, and I need to stop it!
The email example you gave hit me. "The we all need to do things we find difficult" thing hit home. We also shouldn't be expected everything we find difficult nor expect that the difficulty is the same for everyone. I see so many others replying to emails without too much of a care because it's routine, they know all the ins and outs and immediately pick up on subtexts they need to respond to. Not me. Not everyone like me, on the spectrum. I can't find the subtext. I reply to the literal meaning immediately. The subtext is the "why they say it" and that's not just mind-reading, it's having to remember all those perspectives and taking a lot of time to figure out what someone meant, why they said it so I don't ignore it. If it was sarcasm, it's even worse. What others "can know" without mindreading and without just the literal parts is what gets expected and it's something that might simply be unavailable to some of us by degree Another one: "Taking a hint", being blamed/backstabbed later for not picking up on it..while not uncommon, is all too common for some of us. I can spend 20 minutes revising and revising a single sentence. Even replying here, I'm struggling. I re-read and "second guess" but if I don't re-read, I remain unsatisfied and my words remain confusing and while revision does help, I'm still disjointed. It's why I also despise chat programs that do not allow an edit or unsend option. Live chats can be as risky as talking.
The email example hit me for a different reason. I just self-diagnosed my autism about three weeks ago, and since then, I've been getting hit over the head again and again with memories throughout my life, saying "yes, you're autistic, and you've *always* been autistic". When he mentioned taking half an hour agonizing over sending a "Yes, 3pm sounds good", I had another "hey, that's *me* , too! That's an autism thing?" moment.
My initial reaction was that these were toxic suble behaviours from us autistics... I guess I'm really just starting to learn that everything is not my fault, after so many toxic views being swung at me over the years from unknowing people who "just follow the rules of society". That's internal ableism for you.
1. Maybe NT people should learn ND social skills? 2. Yeah, when I was at school, I had to do stuff I found impossible - i.e. PE. But, as an adult, and in my spare time, why shouldn’t I do what I’m better at and enjoy?! Why would I waste my precious time on anything I already know, from personal experience, my body won’t let me do?! 3. Being considerate is fine, but why sbould I be a doormat?! If it’s one-sided, that is a huge red flag! If you’re frequently the only one in that group that needs something, that’s a sign they’re not the right group for you and you need to find people with whom you’re not the odd one out.
Careful with 3, that could lead to self segregation. Yes, it is often easier to be with folks that get you - but if we all did that all the time NT folks would never get exposed to us. Time and again we see that when marginalized groups shut themselves in and hide among only themselves; we get mistreated. I know that's not what you were saying we should do, but it can sneak up on you. Especially if you find a group that satisfies your own needs. Especially-especially if you get lucky enough to find that group at a job.
My response to each is, "Yes, BUT." Take number one, for example. Yes, helping us navigate the social skills minefield, pointing out some of the more subtle rules, is great, but the way NT people interpret "help" and the help that will actually be _helpful_ are two very, very different things.
Thank you for this video, it sums up my last thoughts perfectly. I'm a 60-year-old woman. I recently found out I'm on the autism spectrum and has struggled my whole life to adjust to these notions.
💝💝
How did you feel after your diagnosis? Relieved or worse? I felt relieved
@@AdultAuDHDCommunity , I have mixed feelings. On the one hand, relief and release, on the other, a sense of loss for the time wasted trying to be "normal" all my life :)
Forget learning social skills, but I could use someone to translate when I sound offensive, but only in those situations. They could translate other people for me too, when I need it. My mom helps with that, but she’s autistic too and sometimes we’re both confused. 😂
I like how you handle the "selfishness" argument, especially in intimate relationships. In a sense, everyone has unique communication styles, and part of being in an intimate relationship means learning to accommodate each other's particularities. Accommodation is a two way street
Completely relatable. My mother has never understood this, but my father is starting to. I have always tended to get on better with Asian people than Westerners, not because I am what a toxic politician calls a "reverse racist" but because intellectualism was viewed more highly in Asian cultures and because some of the social mores in Asian cultures seem more compatible with my ways than Western ways. I have always felt at odds with being Australian. The saying "we all have to do things we don't like (or want to do)" also has an application in the medical field for me. When I was twelve, my mother deliberately forced me to see a doctor she knew I didn't like. My mother's inflexible thinking had a role to play there, too. She wanted to get my brother's hair cut on the same afternoon (more flexible thinking would have been giving my brother the money to pay the barber, and as the barber knew my father, too, he could have said, "You can wait here until your mother returns," OR "Your father's work is a hop, skip and a jump from the barber's shop, so walk down there after you've had your hair cut and I'll meet you there.") Instead, she wanted me to have a shower before seeing the doctor, when I could have gone in my school uniform. And I take the attitude, my mother didn't want me to go to the doctor during school time, and the last semester of Year Twelve, not if you can avoid it, the first semester of Year Eight, you can be a little more flexible. As it was, I had to miss two hours of school three months later to see an orthodontist! Anyway, I digress, we had an appointment with a doctor who I thought was okay, but she was running behind schedule, and the receptionist asked if we wanted to see this other doctor, instead, because he'd be quicker, and my mother said yes, and I had a meltdown. Some months later, my father had to go to the doctor, and as I was a bit sick, asked me if I wanted to go, too, and as he was seeing this doctor, I said no. My mother wasn't feeling well, and was in bed, and she asked me about this, and I foolishly said, "Especially because of who he's seeing." Granted, this was before mobile phones, even those the size of a brick, and she suddenly sparked up and said, "What? Is he seeing (insert doctor's name)?" "Yes." She then accused me of being defiant and told me that I'd be seeing this doctor, and flippantly said, "We all have to do things we don't want to do." Yes, we all have to do some things, but not having bodily autonomy at an age where it mattered is unacceptable!
Initial impressions: 1. Sometimes/in certain ways-not correcting us all the time. 2. Absolutely true* 3. Sometimes-meeting the needs you can meet best provides optimal social value, usually, that means prioritising your needs, sometimes it means prioritising others’ without ignoring your own. *The chances of something unpleasant coming up eventually are really high for pretty much anyone, even us. However, invalidating someone else’s limitations and saying they should engage in behaviour that stretches them beyond their limits and results in harm is never okay.
Wow, these are way more subtle and pernicious than I imagined. I thought we might be going after 'super power' savant tropes and empathy here. But you've covered those before... This was even more interesting food for thought
I am astounded with the amount of information you have to share about Autism. I am new to all of this at age 40+ and my whole life I have felt like I didn’t belong, out of sync with people and my environment. From school, college, work, being in public. I have been watching your videos for about a month now and you have some very insightful information. Things that will click on like a light switch. At many jobs I have had, I have ask for accommodations; to simply to move to a quieter workspace. Every time Im told that it would be a disruption to the workplace. I would be away from my teammates, it inconvenient, even though it would not be a financial burden to the company. They saw it as me asking for something that they couldn’t give everyone else. I was told that by one manager. “What if others ask for the same thing? I cant do this for everyone.” But not everyone was me. I have sensory issues, along with hearing loss on the low spectrum so I wear hearing aids which amplify sound. I doesn’t matter that Ive told others of this. Ask them to speak up or to look at me while talking instead of walking past talking thinking I heard them. I was always the last to know and that crushed my self esteem. I get angry easily when I let the people know my needs and they don’t bother to try to have a conversation with me, work out a plan, research autism in the workplace. They ignore it and eventually Im the problem and they let me go saying my behavior doesn’t meet the policy’s definition of employee standards. My first job, I was the over 10 yrs. My second job, all 3 years of the covid pandemic, my last job, 6 months. All of which was after I ask for help. All three of these questions are deeply relevant to the non-typical. My last job, I offered to sit with the manager and doctor (who complained about me) and go over my needs and looks at some typical scenarios that are outlined in the American Disabilities Act specifically for autism and the hard of hearing. I was terminated with out cause. Now Im scared of what lay ahead. Will I ever find my place? Im educated with an Associates degree in Applied Science. O have worked as a Certified Medical Assistant for over 17 years, but now that has seemed to all washed away along with my identity.
I hope you're doing better today, and if not, please don't be so hard on yourself. You know who you are and your place in this world will open up for you, soon, too. Just have faith that it exists, because it does, and meanwhile keep advocating for yourself.
I was diagnosed with ADHD 6 days ago. It took me MINUTES to go on KZhead and learn that I also fit the Autism "listings of weirdnesses". Emotions are colors to me. I always avoid eye contact unless I know someone well. I can't not be distracted by whatever and who knows. I have MEMORIES which are preverbal! All anyone ever said to ME was, "Gee your memory is so GOOD!" REALLY?!?! Now I know what my life IS! This video did trigger me and make me angry! I was recently told that, "Well everyone has idiosyncrasies" and "You have ADHD? Who doesn't?" I'll just leave this BS there for ya to detect. Paul, thank you SO much for YouTubing. It is because of you and a few others like Orion Kelly that I had my Dori moment! I LITERALLY had the "P SHERMAN, WALLABY WAY, SYDNEY!!!" moment. You Aussies are always so awesome.
The consideration for others has often been used by manipulators to get what they want, and to bully you into an unsatisfactory and one-sided relationship in my experience. All parties need tone considerate to others and take everyone's needs into account, and even though you cannot always expect to have your own way all the time, you can always do a stocktake of what is in the relationship for you and choose to walk away if needed
Since he's asking me about my initial reaction, here's my initial reaction : Initial reaction : 1) Seems condescending 2) Seems really dismissive 3) that's a red flag, especially the "it's selfish to put your needs first"
In the past I would hang back and let others make decisions as long as no one was getting hurt, even though it was sometimes stressful for me. Now I let some people know what I prefer, and I find many to be more accommodating than I had expected.
Yeah, I tend to do that too. It's really hard to unlearn. 😅
Ohhhh man the "be considerate of others" really messed me up. Because, another big underlying message of it is assuming that the autistic person isn't already trying to be considerate, or even that they are purposefully being inconsiderate. Growing up, I was highly aware of how I would accidentally be inconsiderate, and so whenever that would happen, I would always apologize and express that it wasn't intentional and outline the steps I was going to use moving forward or have been already trying to use to try to fix it, and ask for suggestions of what I can do moving forward, and every fkn time I was told by this one adult authority figure "why don't you care about others for a change?", as if I hadn't just explained the ways I was sacrificing my mental health trying to bottle my emotions and walk on eggshells for this person. This adult would completely ignore my apologizing and trying to explain that I was trying to improve and be more aware and that I cared more about them than I did about myself, and treated me like I was being malicious and was this villain who didn't give a shit about being considerate, when that was at the forefront of my mind a majority of the time. That (let's be honest, lowkey gaslighting by denying what I say and dictating my own motivations to me)... really messed me up.
"It's just in your head you just need to think differently and you will be alright" The other one is sweet from who sais it but it just doesn't help "You will be alright"
Another idea linked to an underlying toxic attitude is 'but everyone has to camouflage sometimes'. It's a version of 'but we are all on the spectrum' 😡
I have had a pause of your videos for a while now, because they hurt so much. My wife is very understanding and especially as one of our daughters acts similar to me my wife slowly grasps how I became the person I am today. I am a bit damaged but we try to be good parents and help our daughter to be strong and able to live her own life.
This video definitely speaks to me. Being a person who had suffered from Obesity, not having my biological parents around, Asperger's Syndrome, and coming out as Gay at age 42, I have been most of these things. Thanks for sharing this!
I have experienced all of them. It is very challenging to have been dismissed my entire life, and when I received a diagnosis, people referred to my sensory issues as something all people have experienced. I felt extremely angry because of this. To people who are on the spectrum, I wish a lot of love, as it is not easy to navigate in this society.
Thank you for this video. I have a very hard time advocating for myself at work. I'm supposed to get special accommodations that my employer is supposed to allow for but they often let them lapse and I have to continually ask for them back. For example, the radio in my workspace is supposed to be kept at a low volume but the managers often turn up the volume and I have to keep asking them to turn it back down. They don't take my condition seriously at all. It's exhausting.
What those toxic beliefs don't take into consideration is that "I can't ". I am retired and have studied people's interactions so I think I have a decent idea of appropriate social skills. The problem is, if I am concentrating on looking at eyebrows so they think I'm making eye contact, not stimming or stimming in a way that isn't obvious, etc, I am so focused on appearing normal that I am missing out on what is happening, what is being said, etc. In a conversation, if a question is asked, I have so many possible responses running through my brain that I don't have time to find the best response before I am accused of not paying attention or respond inappropriately. Play background music? I only catch the odd words here and there so I have no idea what is being said. I may as well not be there. Even going to a quiet room prevents my being a participant. I'm not being self centered when I ask for accommodations so I can be part of what is going on. It is self preservation. It's easier to just choose not to socialize. I am so glad I'm not in the workforce anymore. Almost everything was 10 times as hard for me as for my NT coworkers and they didn't get that.
What a wonderfully nuanced and compassionate discussion with great examples! I'm training to become a clinical counselor and trying to better understand neurodivergence. Your videos more than anyone else's have helped me access deeper insight into the experiences of autistic adults while reframing the way I conceptualize neurotypical ways of being. Thank you so much and keep up the amazing work!
Absolutely agree with your analysis of all three. Just to illustrate how these affect us: one of the 'solutions' to the 'problems' I was supposedly causing at work was to have me trained in social skills. When I suggested that the rest of my team might benefit from training, I was told they as they were 'normal', training would be inappropriate.
The thing about autistic adults being afraid to stand up for ourselves explains... A lot
There's the idea that autistic people, or at least the more verbal autistic people, have some kind of "superpower." Some neurotypicals think autistics are all like Sherlock Holmes, or Dr. House, or Albert Einstein, abrasive but brilliant. I'm only now discovering the toxic assumption in this belief: that, as an autistic, I must display some sort of ability significantly above that of the people around me in order to justify my existence and autistic behaviors to those people. In other words, I have to purchase the right to have my needs met by literally doing the impossible.
wait! some have their needs first? 😢 me it's more: "no one works night" "well... I do..." "yeah... no one but Manu... lets leave at 6am!" and "we'll stop where you wanna go next trip." [but we won't...]
You have to be careful, know what actually helps and don't get upset if you feel like your advice is being ignored, it can definitely be helpful to try to help with social misunderstanding in the moment. Sometimes helping other people in the room understand each other helps a lot. Some aspects of social behavior just need reminders here and there. It's very important to let people know that they are having a misunderstanding. This is true to a certain extent, but usually only if it's detrimental to the situation, it's good to try things once but peer pressure is a bad way to do it. Self care is important and trying to establish a new pattern of functioning can be very helpful. Focusing on a social situations in the moment for me can be very difficult. Inconsistent social situations are very confusing for me, I struggle to adjust and I don't consistently in my ability to function. Other people's emotions affect me a lot, anxious people make me very anxious. I struggle to find a balance between putting my needs first and being passive. I get a lot of push back, just get ignored or forgotten when I, tell people that the TV is too loud or just that I don't feel good. Having to keep explaining what is bothering me and why isn't reasonable for me to keep doing. Putting myself first makes me feel like a burden or like I'm ruining everyone else's day, and it has gotten me treated poorly for most of my life.
yeah l see this a lot and feel its so hard to deal with. p.s paul that spider plant needs some help too ;-)
The tricky thing with the stimming behavior is that it genuinely makes people very uneasy and feeling downright unsafe because it’s triggering. It makes their brains think we’re unstable crazy people. Especially for those of us who have been violently attacked by people who displayed odd behavior line myself. I have to get far away from anyone who seems unstable or I’ll have a giant panic attack. And often people are really loud with their stimming and you can’t hear the lecture or movie or it’s again, really unsettling, startling or overwhelming. I experienced this tired morning at Target. A guy with head protection was loudly sort of making abrupt moaning sounds (I think he was just excited) it was really triggering for me. Of course I wanted to be understanding. But I had to get the heck out of there and fast. My nervous system was getting really overloaded very rapidly. I guess it triggered loud violent traumas from my past. I experience that in everyday situations though all the time. Fireworks for example. Really hard on me. But the people are having so much fun. I wouldn’t want to take that from them even if I could. I need to just get some of those ear bud things. However, inIndiana people go WAY overboard and start literally exploding ordinances 2 months before the July! I think it’s reasonable to say that’s not cool. Cannons??? Really people??? Freaking cannons! Blowing up propane cans???
the last one is really painful. I was so systematically confused by the type of problems that I was having as a child/teen. I couldn't even say what exactly was off, but the feedback/solution was so obviously off base and dismissive, I now as an adult struggle to meet and understand my own needs. Like nom, the work isn't complicated at all, I just can't speak at the end of the day to appropriately pass it on.
The first one, helping autistic people to learn social interactions, has happened to feel right for me. The other ones immediately made me feel my stomach, as I know those well-meant badly-made stances too well. Ealrier in my life, I was more vulnerable to them, today I have some defence against them. Some people are very willing to understand, some give in if you just stand for your needs, and sometimes, I walk away from a cooperation or situation if it tends not to work out well. Social education has tended to work out well for me, as autistic traits are quite common throughout my family and we understand our special needs quite well so we have been able to help each other quite a lot.
Thank you so much for explaining these toxic ideas. I've had people say those things to me. My own husband doesn't to me on a daily basis. When you mentioned them, I thought I knew what you were going to say. But you explained it so much better thank you so much. I'm sorry to say that my husband is very toxic. He just will not let me be me. Our whole relationship for 13 years he has expected me to do everything his way. Forcing me to hug people and wants me to be as social as he is. 😢
Yeah. My socialization is different from NT's. I do perfectly fine with most groups of autistic people, especially when we split into small groups of 2-4.
1 .I think we should always help each other out in social situations regardless. Be kind. Offer guidance if someone seems to be struggling, but do not help someone without their consent. 2. We do sometimes have to do things we do not want to. AND if that thing causes anxiety then it is not ok to be pushed into doing it by another person. We are all sover
I have always felt 'selfish' if I consider my needs before anyone else's needs. I'm a compulsive people pleaser. Placating everyone around me. Hyper sensitive to others moods and needs. It's damn tiring!
Initial thoughts/reactions: 1. I know people who are on the spectrum who were able to pick up on social cues and such with little-to-no help from others just by being observant. I was not really one of those people, there are a lot of times when I really think life would have been easier and better if I'd had a little help and been diagnosed properly when I was much younger. I had to deal with being the "weird kid" in class who got ostracized quite a lot, especially after Columbine happened here in the U.S. However, I can also see how that could easily go into patronizing/condescending territory, as a lot of people will go so far as to take away your agency. My dad always knew something was "off" about me and sometimes tried to "help" by informing people by actually telling them that I was a little bit slow/off. That was demeaning. 2. I've been told/lectured about this, at best, and have been forced to do things that make me uncomfortable or possibly even traumatic at worst. This has included being forced to eat foods I didn't like, in fact that was usually the big thing. Food has always been a problem for me and my parents were borderline harassed by other family members about my eating habits, to the degree that they took me to the doctor and had intrusive tests run to ensure I wasn't malnourished. That included having blood drawn when I was maybe 6 or 7 years old, which could have been really traumatic if not for the really kind and patient nurse who drew the blood. 3. This was an issue that I also didn't realize was an issue until much later, but my personal space was invaded frequently, especially with concerns to my younger brothers and their friends. One brother in particular really pushed it, and his friends did as well. It got a lot worse to the point where I eventually found out my brother was stealing my things (toys and such) and giving them to his friends. For their part, when his friends found out he had stolen the items, they were returned, but I was 12-14 when this was going on, and my parents seemed to have more of an attitude of "Aren't you a little old for toys?"
I tried to do a vocational retraining a couple years ago (it was for disabled ppl and ppl who can't do their former job any more because of health reasons) and it was absolutely horrible. A big reason for that was some of these attitudes. For the physically disabled students they asked each one of them individually what they needed and accomodated that (for example one was in a weelchair and could only move one hand slightly so he needed everything digitally and someone to put the mouse into his hand so he could work on the computer) but for everyone with a mental disability or discorder they expected us to cope without any accomendations. The excuse was always "we're simulating how it will be at work and if you can't deal with that you need more therapy". In one of those "simulations" two classes of about 12 students each got taught at the same time in a big room that was supposed to be like a huge office, completely ignoring that 1. in most office spaces there won't be two teachers talking at the same time and 2. you can choose to not work in a huge office space and look for a company with smaller offices. None of the teachers had any training with regards to disabled ppl or mental illness or anything and the social workers were unwilling to help you talk to them about possible accomendations (because "at work you will have to do it yourself too"), which meant you had to talk to each teacher individually if you wanted accomendations and many of them were unwilling to offer any. One even regularly gossiped about students that were ill, believing they were all just faking it cos they were lazy. When I had meltdowns and ran out of the classroom I often got chastized for it and the doctor told me if i continued to miss so much of the schooling because of meltdowns they wouldn't let me do the retraining in 2 years as I had planned, even if my grades were perfect. They also kept telling me that I would never be able to work if I wasn't able to deal with the retraining without any accomendations. And there were teachers who forced me to do nothing in class when i was finished with the exercises and just sit there quietly suffering waiting for the others to finish (it was all way too easy for me and i usually regulated my emotions by doing extra cousework i enjoyed). So I quit after 3 months and started working in a field they told me was impossible for me to work in (i was good at it, but after 6 months it got too overwhelming and i had to quit, still looking for a job i can sustain longterm)
I immediately agree that all three have the potential for subjective toxicity within particular contexts with particular people. Glad you're coving the topic in a nuanced way, good sir! I'll continue on with the video...
That's because anything can be actuated in a toxic manner.
My first reaction to the 3 ideas: 1. Help autistic people with social skills. Yes we should, I always ask for help (but I don't want unsolicited advice). 2. Everyone needs to do things they don't like. Yes we do, but I can already the dismissive end of the sentence coming. 3. Be considerate, and it's selfish to put your needs first. It's everyone's first job to fulfill their needs, that's how we survive. This one simply doesn't make sense.
Think we need to help everyone learn social skills, for sure. I don’t need to look someone in the eye, so why should I. People’s eyes burn it’s a strong thing to do and makes me quite uncomfortable so why should I put myself through it. Totally agree with you on culture as just lately that’s exactly how I’ve explained myself to others in that it’s like I when going to a foreign country and you need to learn something about the language and culture, meaning they’re also visiting a foreign country when they are with me. So sick of having to justify and explain myself, feel like it’s pointless sometimes.
I have the opposite problem, I’m usually considered too nice, too compassionate. It’s really hard because like you said, we tend to think our needs aren’t important, so we don’t ask. But I still feel selfish. I wonder if I cater to other people in order to keep the attention on someone else. But I feel so deeply for them. I think there are other autistic people who seem self centered, but really, they’re just not sure how to react in certain situations. Behaving suitably in certain situations can seem snooty or cold. (Minefield! Stay home, avoid everyone! 😂)
I have the same problem with feeling for people and therefore doing for them and ignoring myself.
If you have a very formal speech pattern like myself you can come off pompous. Even I notice when I am polite I’m considered a pushover by some people and then I do miss out on being assertive.
All nine jobs that I had in the corporate world, whenever I had a job review, I always got great marks for my technical skills but I was always told that I needed to improve my social skills. However, my bosses, and the corporation in general, didn't supply to me any ways to do this. Then just recently, I was self diagnosed as having autism (I'm 65 yo male), which has answered so many questions and explained so much.
Thanks Paul 💙👊. Newly dx F 58. One of your last sentences rings so so true - “not allowed to ask for your own help” - I’ve been feeling like that my whole life. Makes real sense as have such hard time asking for help. Know the ASD is part of it but also the dysfunction and trauma grew up on. Thanks again for these highlights 💙👊😊
I’ll focus on #1. I’ve come to think that a lot of the social issues relate to instincts. Autistic people do have instincts for what others mean by something, which is why we can often understand each other pretty well. They are just different instincts. Given that I can misunderstand the intent of someone else, I’ve been trying to cultivate some compassion for NT people having trouble with, say, what my expression or type of response means. It can be hard to fight your instinctive reaction, especially if it’s a trigger. In looking at it this way, the same rules would apply to ND and NT people; we all acknowledge that our instinctive reaction may or may not be right, that we should try to stay open to the possibility that we are misinterpreting, and also that staying open to that, and not running solely on instinct, is hard work for anyone. One of the toxic things about #1 is the idea that NDs must always be on guard for their misinterpretations, but that NTs always have it right at the get go and can basically phone it in. That’s just not true. It’s what I’ve always felt: I’m trying awfully hard to stay open to other interpretations, and I am looking for other people to put that work in too. The other half of number 1 is the impact of tribal instincts on social interactions. The right way/wrong concept is mostly a tribal or cultural construct, as Paul indicates, but it’s worth noting that the extent to which this divides people into discreet groups is to a large degree intentional. Tribal instincts and hierarchies come from our primate roots: a strong, underlying impulse to identify who is part of your tribe, and who isn’t, and within the tribe, each member’s individual rank. I submit that one of the things that gets autistic people in “social trouble” is how easily some people will instantly perceive us as not part of their tribe. When we are dealing people who are really conscious of tribe and rank, teaching “poor inept autistic people” to “engage properly” is truly toxic, because it implies that, if we do it right, these people would accept us - and many won’t. No wonder we so often feel like failures. No wonder we avoid larger social groups where tribe and rank play the largest role. Even if we are accepted, it will be implicitly understood that we are at the absolute bottom of the pack, and we will be smacked down if we do anything that is perceived as trying to rise above our rank. There’s a risk of becoming more demoralized and angry at this than is useful, and I suspect some of the people in occupational therapy, etc. are probably very wary of that - let’s not bum kids out, stay positive! Yes, but if staying positive means keeping quiet about the parts that personal training can’t fix, it leaves the trainee vulnerable to wondering why they are trying so hard and still not getting it to work...and that’s toxic. Credit for the tribal/rank stuff goes to Robert Saplosky’s Human Behavioral Biology lectures, an obsession of mine. Available without commercials on the Stanford KZhead channel. Tribal content was probably largely in the Etology lecture, but the full 26-or-so lecture series is worth it.
I have heard that in Nicaragua there is a culture where you do not need to make eye contact
It was also considered the inappropriate and disrespectful (like also grasping the hand in a handshake) thing to do to hold direct eye contact, especially with elders, in the native American culture. Caucasians have made so much of eyes contact and holding that eye contact that it has caused cultural problems. Humans take their cultural approaches to an unrealistic level of stupidity, for they tend to take things to the extreme.
2) "We all have to do things we don't like from time to time" - 😡 (
Speaking as an autistic myself, my reactions to the three things are: 1.) Mixed. On the one hand, I think everyone (allistic and neurodivergent alike) need to work on better social skills. Blanket, I just don't think we, as a race, are as good at communicating as we could be. On the other hand, I've personally seen people use this reasoning to avoid doing the work they need to do, and instead putting the entire burden on us, which is unacceptable. 2.) Agree with this, to an extent. This is just an unfortunate truth of reality, from my perspective. We, as a species, have not developed enough to the point where this can be avoided. 3.) Complicated. We all have wants and needs. We should put our needs first; these are essential, these are non-negotiable. But, we should never put our wants before someone else's needs.
The first attitude reminded me of the Hobbit (more the movie than the book because I barely remember the book). I always found the dwarves barging in on Bilbo as rude and offensive. When I had a thought that were possibly behaving like guests in a Dwarven home it made it even worse. It was a hobbit home, not Dwarven. That's like going to the home of a person whose culture does not wear shoes inside and refusing to take your shoes off because your family tracks their muddy boots through the house all the time. It shows a clear lack of respect for others.
Thanks Paul - this is brilliant. This topic should be central to discussions about autism, because autism isn't inherently disabling. It's disabling to the extent our needs are not accomodated by the majority. This is especially true when it comes to social settings, because human beings are social creatures. Our well being is heavily influenced by our level of social acceptance and support. Same as any other human being. We are routinely discriminated against in social settings because we are different. Social groups are little tribes, and tribes are all about conformity and exclusion. This in turn requires demonization of outsiders and other non-confoming people as moral justifictaion for bullying, humuliation, exploitation and ostracizing / banishment they (we) are subjected to. It all turns on the assumption that difference is bad - a threat to the group and it's brutal, covert hierchy and the distrubution of power brokered within it. When a neurotypical bully attacks an autisic person and says "It's nothing personal" they mean it. Because they don't see us as persons. They see us a opportunities to increase their social status by attempting to impose their will on someone they percive as weaker - physically and/or socially. The reason confronting bullies is so effective is because it denies them their goal - submission. Submission is how tyrants gain and weild power, and it all turns on a combination of obediance to authority, and group loyalty / power seeking, and the social shame and humilation that enforces the dominant social order. If anyone doubts this is true, seach KZhead for these two topics: "The Milgram Experement" "The Stanford Prison Experiment" These were classic social experiements conducted over 1/2 a century ago. They have been replicated countless times accross a variety of cultures. The results are always the same. Milgram proved at Yale that the majority of human beings will follow orders to torture and kill a stranger if an authority figure insists they continue. Torture and murder. I'm not making this up, but I wish I was: kzhead.info/sun/ft6dZqmvaoaolHk/bejne.html The Milgram thing shows how powerful the obediance instinct is, and how it relies on the ability of people to shift responsibility for their actions onto others. Think "I was just following orders" and "Everyone else was doing it too" as moral justification for crimes against humanity. The Stanford Prison Experiment was conducted at Stanford University. It involved a mock prison whith gaurds and inmates assigned roles randomly, and then locked together in a basement with rooms used as cells. The experiment had to be stopped because of how abusive the gaurds became towards the prisoners - who were actually their classmates. Think of the abuse and torture at Abu Garab prison by American soldiers in the the Gulf War. Well disciplined and trained professional soldiers with power over people who were helpless engaged in some of the most disturbing, degenerate abuse possible for no reason other than.....well, they were bored, homesick, and having fun. They got caught because they documented the abuse themselves and shared it with freinds and family and other soldiers - doubtless trying to increase their social status with their peers! kzhead.info/sun/frJ9j8Z6e3duhYk/bejne.html The good news is, autistic people are not crazy or unreasonable. Our social anxiety is an adaptive response to the NT social world. It's typical people and their primitive instincts coupled with their cowardice and sadism that are the real problem. We have good reason to fear and avoid interacting with these monsters. Sometimes it's safe to interact with some of them. One on one. But when they form groups? I'm out Litterally out I've always been an outsider and I always will be. Now that I understand why, I no longer hate myself for not fitting in. I'm proud of myself for surviving such an awful, crippling social environment with love in my heart for everyone - even my tormentors. All living things are beautiful, and neurotypical people didn't choose to be animals anymore than I chose to be autistic. I now understand that they dangerous animals, and best approached with caution when they form packs, or appreciated from a safe distance. The cutest family pet dog can turn into a cold blooded killer if it gets loose and joins a feral group of dogs. So make no mistake. We are in danger in NT led social settings. Our task is the same as any human being: To move safely through social viper nests without getting snakebit. It's just much, much harder for us. I look at this way: A parapelgic person can get up a flight of stairs without a ramp or elevator, but it's gonna be an ugly, exhausting, slow, humilating, stuggle. A blind person can drive a car on the freeway in similar fashsion - with utterly predictable results
I had a housemate tell me that I "need to think about others sometimes" or something along those lines, and that hit so hard because I spend so much mental and emotional energy trying to not set off her anxiety, and to have her basically say "you don't think about my needs" was like a giant slap in the face. ... then I lashed out in a way that really hurt her emotionally.
This clarified a lot. And also I identify with that idea that we’re taught that our needs are reduced. This is not a zero sum game. There are ways to get close to be considerate of all parties present, without reducing the consideration for anyone
I definitely disagree with the last statement. We need to put our needs first (at least sometimes). It's important to take care of yourself and your well being before others. Just like how on an airplane when you need to put on the oxygen mask (if a plane is going down), they tell you to put on yours before helping others Yet, that statement is drilled in me
Excellent point!!!
Yes! Openly taking cues is so much less pressure because, 1) it's kind of like a game, 2) it's somehow temporary or contingent, 3) nobody expects immediate (or even ultimate) internalization, and, 4) you're not considered an idiot for not having known it already.
The third one got to me the most. As if autistic people like us don't put others' comfort and norms before our needs every damn day, but the few times we actually ask for accomodation or grace with our behavior, it's seen as a selfish affront to their persons. How is that fair?
Going on what you said about culture: I may not be alone in this one but I’ve always found it easier to establish relationships with people seeking connections outside of our prescribed cultures. This is mainly due to the fact these people are often already susceptible to change and other ideals. The communication barrier doesn’t only make us more direct but allows for me to articulate a different mode of myself that my own culture doesn’t often embrace. Many of us on the spectrum are often already plugged into this way of thinking, so it’s a win, win, for me.
That’s why I feel “put out” when my partner suggests that I just “take my self out or away” when things become too much at home - my own home is inaccessible!! Thank you
some of this leaves me with tears in my eyes, as I have never in my 60 years thought it was okay to ask for the environment to be made to work for me. It's more so for women, because the expectation that we will be accommodating is considerably higher, and being "nice" is a primary value. I hope that is changing for kids growing up today, but in the 60s and 70s, it was almost an absolute. I'm still working to identify and undo so much of it.
The classic for me is: "I have issues remebering names and people" - "oh, I have this too" and then they continue greeting the next best person by their name and I'm totally not knowing who that is.
I hadn't thought much of point number 3 but once you started explaining, it sounded exactly like how a fomer friend of mine, when telling me she didn't want to be around eachother anymore, talked about how she felt she always had to accomodate my problems (such as being started by loud noises and having mild food adversions) for me when she believed I should have delt with them myself. She explained it as if it something I should have known and was choosing not to do.
1. At first it seems okay. But I often feel "Forced" to change my interests and like what others like because they are more "Normal" than my interests. And that my own interests are too embarrassing to talk about. 2. "We all get nervous when we first meet a stranger. But over time we get better social skills." I was often told this, but it never felt right. 3. If a situation was distressing to me, I was often told not to be selfish and to "Grin and Bear it" because it serves a greater purpose for my friends. An example is vacuuming the house despite the loud noise disturbing me.
I’m sound sensitive too Diagnosed with autism at 40 . I wish your family realized that to you the vacuum is just too loud .You need earplugs whenever you vacuum and that would turn down the volume .Can you handle earplugs .To your family I’d say People your relative hears sounds louder than you do and it costs more for him or her to vacuum than for most people I use earplugs a lot and they help but some sounds are so intense i have to avoid being in certain places
!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Thank you for validating my experiences! Felt like walking on eggshells when speaking to many individuals instead of able to convey my needs to sought for their understanding and accommodation. Add masking and the other challenges like social anxiety or depression. I often had to swallow or temporarily suppress that side of "bad" self in order to properly fit into a neurotypical setting. #1 rings true at all times for me. In most conversations. #2 hits hard when stereotype, meeting new people and people who can't relate (even if it comes from family and friends) #3 deeply ingrained with how my parent taught me that I find hard to shake from religious upbringing. Also causes a deep shame/hurt especially around folks who share the same beliefs and outlook I feel sad how hard this hits.
You are not alone
Initial response to “everyone has to deal with discomfort etc… interestingly, at first I thought “well yeah” and I was reminded of many times where my spouse is the only person getting his needs met or how he expects me to handle him with gloves and walk on eggshells or how I never get to listen to the radio at the volume I like. We’re both neurodivergent and for the most part, in sort of opposite ways. Our needs often really clash and it’s tough. Real tough. I am an internalizer, people pleaser, empath etc & he is a genius who is severely lacking in emotional intelligence, empathy etc. he wants everything very very structured, predictable, quiet, non-changing, and very very specific in how every little thing is done and I am a person who really can’t stand that stuff. I’m very play it loose, stay in your flow, intuitive, empathic, playful, silly wild loud, super spontaneous, wildly creative, fly by the seat of my pants and that it’s what makes me HAPPY! So very very happy. Blissful in fact. I don’t worry about stuff. I’m a free spirit. His structured way of living feels extremely suffocating to me and we always do things his way because he insists on it and I let him have his way because I cannot stand the way he gets when he’s stressed. Do it goes both ways is my point. I obviously have a subconscious program of like “I need to put everyone else above my own”. But maybe we’re just not compatible 😔
OMG. I just realized I've been stimming in public. I sit in a front pew at church but way off to a corner where I'm actually as far from the "crush" as I can be, and I struggle titanically to stay awake during sermons UNLESS there is something I can do physically, something to manipulate with my hands or in some other way arrange. Sometimes I just can't stand it anymore, and I get up to "use the restroom," as that's a socially acceptable reason to excuse oneself. But to me it's like coming up out of the deep for air. I would listen wonderfully, no problem, if only I could, say, pace around in the back. This is all overwhelming me, that it's all coming together so suddenly like this.
There's a delicate hard-to-define line between doing too much for someone so they feel inferior, and doing too little so they miss out on opportunities. I was diagnosed after an examination by psychologist in 2019 as High Functioning Autistic. Yes, during my young life I had lots of that, "It'll get easier for you on the job as you gain experience," when in fact on most of the jobs I held, it never did. I had lots of that, "You'll get more confident at dating as you get experience." I didn't. However, I also _have_ improved at social interaction and conversation skills, learning to talk with people instead broadcast at people. I've also understood that grooming and dressing appropriately is good for me, something I long dismissed as unimportant. So these ideas you list are good -- and toxic. It depends on the context and on the individual.
All three of those come from base of accommodating the the person who says it because not doing those things make the speaker uncomfortable. There was a study done (2019 in Cambridge ?) That showed autistics to be as good at social communication as 'normies' are when that communication was with other autistics (& 'normies' to normies'). When the communication was across neurotypes 'performance' dropped noticeably (in terms transfer of information back & forth). #2 you're right. So many 'normies' have no idea of the level of struggle we face. They've never experienced that degreed ificulty & frankly can't even imagine it. #3. So many of us come from the background of a traumatic childhood in which our needs are never met or even recognised so we end up believing our needs are not valid & don't matter leading down so many different byways of people pleasing. Good video. Everything well covered. (I was already well versed on the ablism of these 3 so no surprises).