Medieval Misconceptions: HORSES
2019 ж. 24 Қаз.
354 374 Рет қаралды
How big were horses in the medieval period and what types of horses were there?
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Remember, for over a millennium a guy on a horse was the fastest internet connection you could get
What about dem ravens
Lurker101 and they were fine! Garshdarn kids these days
You know, I'm still waiting for someone to say "but what about dragons?"
Still faster than dialup
@@Lurker101Gaming but what about dragons?
Nah, everyone know all horses during the medieval era were actually servants running behind the rider while banging coconuts together.
Is that a monty python reference I spy?
Yes. BUT . . . . . You fool! What about the dragons!
How did a coconut get to Britain?
@@Dragosus are you suggesting coconuts migrate?
@@bottomshot4546 The swallow may fly south with the sun or the house martin or the plover may seek warmer climes in winter, yet these are not strangers to our land?
Interesting, so when they say in “The night before Christmas” the line “His coursers they flew” we can take away that Santa’s reindeer are trained for combat. Good to know.
well the medieval Finish did ride reindeer into battle
@@matthiuskoenig3378 That is WAY more bada** sounding than it should be...
Not trained. Reindeer are just like that.
Well, we already know Saint Nicolas was a fighting man. Just as Arius.
@@thehackingburger3002 Well, consider going up against cavalry riding animals with *horns*.
Shad, This is a bit of a necro comment, but I've just stumbled on this older video of yours about horses, nicely done. I agree completely. Medieval war horses in Western Europe at least, were usually stallions, so stronger and more muscular than most modern riding horses that are usually mares or gelded male horses called geldings. The Stallion hormones make a big difference in behaviour and performance, and smaller horses, about 15 hands high are easier to get on in armour too.
I hadn't considered the gendering. I have this feeling that we in the modern age have a distorted sens of the size and power of classical horses because many of the horses we see on TV and in film have Arabian genes
Nowadays, most movie horses are Friesians or Andalusians. Destrier type, but bigger now than they were 1000 years ago
@@michiganscythian2445 Thanks for that. I'm not a equine enthusiast so my comments reflect that. I guess I could say I was going more for the "horses that are longer and taller" sort of point and Arabian is the thing that springs to mind. Which could be altogether wrong as well.
I love how the first thing I did when I saw this video was search for a comment by Modern History lol.
In the 20+ years that I had been involved with horses in one way or another, while stallions could get more muscular, it was actually the geldings that grew bigger. Of course a lot depends on when the horse is gelded as well. I know quite a few geldings that display typically stallion behaviour simply because they were gelded late (and we're not talking a few months after. They had years to get their hormones low). Of course, when the risk of infection became more pharmacologically controllable gelding unpromising stallions became more popular because when you don't need him for breeding why deal with potential aggression and unpredictability? That being said, using stallions was often simply more practical - more consistent behaviour, the fact that you can actually lose a horse in a battle and it makes more sense to inseminate the mare(s) and take the stallion so if you happen to come back 11 months later without your good war horse, you still have a chance of coming to a mare you can ride and a foal that can grow to be the next war horse.
I asked my horse if he liked this video. Turns out he's a neighsayer.
delete this
Booooooooo
He's just upset he's not a destrier.
Best dad joke of the day.
Take my like. You've earned it.
The Broze Age civilazations actually used chariots because the horses were still pretty small. Egyptian horses were prized for being able to be extremely good quality, but could not hold up a man wearing armor.
Assyrians where the first to start using not-chariot-cavalry for warfare, I think. Sometimes with 2 men sitting on one horse. Poor horse...
@@szarekhthesilent2047 so Assyrians were just as cruel to animals as they were to people ;-;
Correction : they used chariots when the landscape where they lived allowed them to. Chariots are...bad, in warfare. very bad : they're fragile, they can't turn too fast or they'll break, if they hit a rock they're basically done... So the only places where they were efficient where open places with few obstacles, like plains or deserts. Egyptians, then seleucides used chariots because the landscape allowed them to, not simply because their horses couldn't hold an armoured rider : they still had horsemen, they just didn't have much armor on them. If the landscape didn't allow them to use chariots, they'd have simply rode horses without armor, like Huns or Mongols did (and their horses were even smaller than the ones found in Europe and Egypt)
The Babylonians thought about the donkeys... They used 4-wheeled war carts pulled by donkeys as their own special version of the chariot.
@C A a mobile platform from there to shoot at enemies and intimidate, its the precursor of horse archers
"All right I hope you heard that. She called me a noble steed." -Donkey
Michael Redford 😆😆😆😆🐴🐴
Yes! Someone else saw that too! XD
One thing I'd like to add: gaited horses were much more common in the middle ages than they are today. Palfreys often had a fourth gait which made them much more comfortable for riding long distances. This ability got lost in most breeds as they were bred for modern cavalry or pulling carriages, but lived on in Iceland and the Americas.
Flugkaninchen Fifth. walk, trot, cantor, gallop and the fifth, call it racking , pace, running walk, whatever, it's a wonderful smooth gait that can cover a lot of ground quickly and a truly smooth horse won't spill water when you hold a glassful while they're at it and you're riding, anticipating a thirsty ride.
Some parts of Central Asia too. I watched a documentary on PBS years ago about Tibet and they were riding large ponies doing a flying pace like Icelandics
Amazing so cool like they were MADE to be ridden how come???
@@elishh8567 Evolution. In Tölt, contrary to trot, there is always at least one foot on the ground. That makes it easier for horses to move around on uneven or slippery ground.
This. Today's gaited breeds include the Icelandic, the Missouri Fox Trotter, the Tennessee Walking Horse, the Paso Fino, and the Peruvian Paso. The last two are even considered to be the closest modern descendants of the medieval palfreys.
Horse's might have not been that big but ya know what was? the snails
blam gam seriously, those snails were a giant pain in a knight’s but.
I don't get the reference
@@BigSauce_ Look up "Medieval Snails art" and enjoy the WTFery.
eaten into extinction? by the french i would assume...
"We're fighting against snails?" "And we're losing?!"
Shad is horsing around.
Shad fact:
Neigh! He's very serious!
Then, the winged hussars arrived.
I think thats just confirms he is into MLP
They weren't just trained, they were types, in contrast to modern breeds. The courser was not any horse trained for battle. That's wrong. Destrier = Stallion created by crossing something like an andalusian stallions (or what they were back then) with a mare courser. In theory it could be any large stallion outside ones own area. This created hybrid vigor in the first generation. A destrier was usually for tournaments, but could be used for war by rich knights and major magnates. We have written evidence for this breeding practice with andalusian horses. Courser = Was the regular large horse breed for warfare and in universal use by men-at-arms. This is a type. Palfrey = Was a dedicated riding horse. It was not for warfare and that has to do with the gait. This was for smooth riding. They are amblers. Later, riding horses with a trott was called hackenys. Rouncey = This was a jack-of-all-trades horse. It could be used as a medium war horse, riding horse or pack animal. Mounted archers had these. Charger = Specifically a horse trained for combat and could be a destrier, courser or rouncey. (You have mixed this up with courser.) Hobby = This is a medium riding horse suited for rough terrain because of the gait. They were a specific breed and imported from Ireland in the 14th century. Originally they were palfreys imported to Ireland. Mounted archers would ride these horses. Jennet = Spanish riding horse much like the Hobby, but probably more collected. Sumter = Pack horse.
Also as a side note: many English men-at-arms (13th to 15th century) rode rounceys as they almost always fought on foot (with some exceptions), but they would ride the horse to the battlefield and for transport.
Rouncey - This could also be used by men tilting at windmills.
Thanks. I was starting to compose an improved definition of palfrey, but you did it first.
@@Ruarscampbell Basically medieval Dragoons?
@@Alias_Anybody Basically, courtesy of England's shitty weather or so I've heard.
Jumps off his mid lands palfrey to take the fallen lord's destrier . . . and can't jump on . . . "You do not have enough riding skill for this mount" whuut
Everyone know they can use horse to climb almost vertical cliff
You, your finally awake
You were trying to cross the border, right? Walked right into that Imperial ambush. Same as us, and that thief over there.
@@wolfwarlordjake8992 Damn you Stormcloaks. Skyrim was fine until you came along. Empire was nice and lazy. If they hadn't been looking for you, I could've stolen that horse and been half way to Hammerfell.
Don't forget being able to jump 5 meters straight up from a stand still while being encased in gold plate.
@@bigdiccmarty9335 You ruined the streak but true
Excellent job, Shad! I'm a lifelong horsewoman and I have to commend you on your research on this subject. Things haven't changed much, the horse world is still full of classifications and terms that aren't clearly understood by the general public.
You mean.... "A horse is a horse of course of course" is wrong?! XD
They also change depending on who you are talking to. I know a ton of people who use the word colt to refer to both a colt and a Filly.
@@codycraddock4975 Where I live, in Cornwall, the older farmers talk about 'horse colts' and 'mare colts' so it's obviously quite widespread.
terms even vary between types of riding. Go from the show jumping world to the reining horses and terminology is all over the place. And colors... iare just a hornets nest!
Theese terms still are very similar in Italian ENG - ITA Sumpter - da Soma (in Italian "da" has the same meaning as "-er" in English) Rouncey - Ronzino Palfrey - Palafreno Courser - Corsiero Destrier - Destriero: from the latin, and then Italian, "destro", meaning right-handed, which was the hand used by the squire to hold the reins of his Lord's war-horse ;)
In Spanish Diestro also means skilled. I think that is closer to the meaning for this category. (Destrier)
Shad, I have been a lifelong fan of medieval cavalry and I'd like to bring to your attention a story I once heard from a historian. It's been years but the gist of it is a noble came home from war on one (if not the) largest war horses recorded in the medieval period and they believe it was the size of a modern Shire Draft horse, it was solid black and dwarfed the rest of the calvary horses around it. I'll do more research and see if I can find the story to share.
I once had a woman tell me I couldn't ask her anything about horses that she didn't already know, but I Stumpter.
👏👏👏🤣
lol that was good.
ignoring your terrible joke, ill bet she rode english...
Shad Fact: Shad recently participated in a caber toss. Though we are still waiting for it the log to actually land.
It will never land. It reached solar system escape velocity and is now eternally coasting in space.
Well . . . . look who’s back.
Soooooo. Shad Facts is now Chick Noris Jokes: Shad edition!
What in the Sam Hill is a caber?
Karina Flower, a caber is like a giant log that men would throw for competition.
Hey Shad, I'm indigenous of the Tsilhqot'in people, and we're a very horse-oriented culture back when Spaniards came and mingled with us, one of the things they gave/introduced to us was horses. This video hit close to home, thanks, man.
Thank you for clarifying the difference between types of horse and breeds! And for your thorough research into horses! It really showed in this video and your terminology is spot on. Many don't know that breed registries only became commonplace long after the medieval period. So, the classifications you described in this video are far more accurate to the period than classifying a horse by 'breed'.
This made my DND campaigns so much easier.
By using price differences between toles? Stat block differences? Both?
@@LuckySketches pretty much both of those, yes. It helps seperate a cheap labor horse from a paladin's holy mount. Otherwise he's just a guy with a horse
@@michaeljacquart7791 and now you know WHY the game (at least in 5e) has "draft horse" Riding horse" and "war horse" as options, and why war horse is so much more expensive than the other two. though i would personally set the Destrier up as a forth slight higher stated war horse in my own games
daemosblack It was that way in 3e, as well. Been too long for me to remember 2nd ed.
In Italian we still use "destriero" (singular) and "destrieri" (plural) when we want to sound fancy when talking about horses. Also we use it specifically to refer to a knight's horse.
Sumpter: van or cheap sedan Rouncy: a nice sedan Palfrey: sports car Courser: humvee Destrier: basic armoured vehicle Elephant: tank (Edited: switched courser and destrier and added elephant. See comments below for the reasons. Thanks for the feedback! )
i would say the Destrier is more a Tank - as by default Humvee's arent armored.....
@@daemosblack I thought about tank, but i think of a tank in a different class of vehicle. After all, when you think of a tank, you think of something indestructible. Is that really what you think of with a destrier? Mind you, you've got a point about humvees. I don't know the different classifications of military vehicles. We need Lindybeige fur that.
@@jcfreak73 also tend to think of tanks as slow vehicles, careful,crawling things with big guns on the front/top of them.
@@jcfreak73 War Elephant? Well In history of my country anyway (Siam/Thailand) . It cost 8 people to fully crew the beast. 4 people defend each of the legs 1 driver on the neck 1 rear watcher 1 signaler/weapon handler 1 commander/lord/king
@@volapongyt8496 yes. War elephant = tank
More 👏 equine 👏 content 👏 I tore through a couple wikipedia pages on this on a car ride a month ago and it was simply fascinating
I'm so early, knights are still just people who can afford a horse.
SuperCityscan "laughs in Cumanic/Mongolian "
Akezhan Toleukhan *laughs in Frankish*
SuperCityscan laughs in Scythian
Then, the winged hussars arrived.
Scott Whatever you completely missed the joke...
Is it true they taste like raisins?
Only if you look at it
Sweet lemonade
Dear GOD you triggered some nostalgia...
Give it a lick
Sound the alarm, we have an old memer!
Shad: "I do hope you enjoyed" all of us: Of course we did - thats why we are here
I wasn’t prepared to see a horse wearing a suit
A very dashing man
Wo won was
I used to make the same argument until my voice got horse...
Then, the winged hussars arrived.
Mr. Ed was a horse who got voice.
and then everyone clopped.
Shut. The. Fuck. Up.
Wait, what is this? Only a 10 minute video? Ooh, I take it, it's because most horses can't be equipped with machicolations, isn't it?
Oh that just sounds like lack of ingenuity to me. I'm pretty sure a sturdy enough destrier can be fortified. Maybe build a chariot with wings with holes in them or holes in the walls.
*most*
Machocolate?
Knights back then who rode armored horses: LOOK AT MY HORSE! MY HORSE IS AMAZING!!
The practice of psuedoarchaic speech that popped up in the Victorian Era is responsible for a lot of our misconceptions about the Medieval Period. . . So yes those flying, jagged horned, Satan beasts are totally trained for combat. Rudolf and his laser snout killed a lot of NAZIs back in the day... Killed him on the inside he never got to smite the commies...
You've made every historical and high fantasy novel I've ever read make so much more sense with this!
I've been binge re-watching your videos and at the very moment I go to bed you upload a new one. Please Shad let me continue with my life.
I had no idea, I guess it’s obvious once humans started breeding animals for certain traits, their phenotype would change so super fast, very interesting video cheers
plants, too. Check out what happened to watermelons.
@@handlebarfox2366 They got sweeeeeeeeeeet. And red.
@@Ruarscampbell they were already red, but there's an 18th (i think) century painting showing a cut watermelon. that motherfucker has SPIRALS in it, and only like, a third of the internals are actually edible.
@@Yal_Rathol True, although the genes for the red flesh colouring (Lycopene) and for sugar are on the same chromosome and in close proximity to one another so when they were selectively bred for sweetness, they tended to also (unknowingly) select for the red flesh gene. Over many generations of selection not only did watermelons become sweeter, the red flesh also started to fill the inside and replace the bitter white. (The white is actually edible too... it just tastes bad.) Some images of older watermelons from the 17th century: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Albert_Eckhout_1610-1666_Brazilian_fruits.jpg, en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Watermelon#/media/File:Pasteques,_extrait_d'un_tableau_de_Giovanni_Stanchi.jpeg National geographic post written by their Senior Science correspondent: Mark Strauss www.nationalgeographic.com/news/2015/08/150821-watermelon-fruit-history-agriculture/
Artificial selection puts such an extreme pressure on a population that it speeds up evolution
Another big thing for a war horse, or, destrier, is its training. Not just maneuvering, horses try not step on bodies, so they have to be trained to stomp on corpses as well as get used to the smell of death and blood. Regardless, a war horse that survives a major battle suffers from debilitating PTSD, so that it was sold as a riding horse, or palfrey, after one, sometimes two battles.
There's actually a series of medieval themed dinner theaters (complete with various medieval equestrian/tournament games & jousting) in the US called "Medieval Times" that feature Andalusian horses, which were a popular breed of war horse dating back to the High Middle Ages, which I think is a rather nice touch.
the amount of people who think the american indians always had horses is also shocking.
Well, they adapted so fast to horse introduction it's no surprise many people think that way
Fun fact horses were originally from the Americas(long ago) they crossed to Asia around the same time as humans went to America the ones in the americas died out long before Europeans showed up though
Native American. America isn't India.
@@CreeCore94 blame Columbus, he named them. he wasnt very bright.
@@CreeCore94 he said "american indian", hush your pointless self
This video reminds me of the Hand's Joust in the first Game of Thrones book. Gregor Clegane rode a Destrier, and Loras Tyrell rode a mare. Gregor's horse was still pretty strong because it wasn't a gelding, but looked like a pony when Gregor was riding him. The strength added by the fact this stallion wasnt gelded turned into a disadvantage, as its natural disobedience made it hard to ride, and Loras' mare was in heat made the stallion go nuts.
Poor horse lost his head over that mare.
Makes sense, Stallions are generally unpredictable if only for being so bloody hormonal, every riding stable I've been to has had one stallion, just one, to about 15-20 mares. Those poor guys drove themselves (and their respective owner) mad any time a female came into season, not surprising Destriers were so rare when keeping/riding a stallion safely in the medieval period must've been a huge risk in itself.
@@panq8904 It depends a bit on the stallion though - our stable owner trains young horses and they had one stallion that was calmer than my mare - even when I walked by with my mare who was in heat at the time. But most stallions would do everything to get to a mare in heat.
@@blauespony1013 True, the owners of the stallions I mentioned really only owned them because they came from good bloodlines and were worth a bunch, they weren't very well trained individuals IMO. Good trainers these days can do some incredible stuff with horses, but also consider that horse trainers nowadays are far more aware of the psychology and intelligence of the animals they're training, there are so many resources on horse/general animal psychology that aid in horse training in the modern era that people back in Medieval times wouldn't have had access to or understood. Even the initial training of breaking in a horse for riding purposes was brutal in the medieval period, at least in Western Europe. Repeated punishment and negative reinforcements likely lead to some pretty psychologically unstable animals. Between that, their 'hormonal energy' and the fact that being thrown off a horse in those days could very easily kill you, riding a Destrier Stallion sounds terrifying. Crap I've rambled, the subject of animal behavior and how training methods have advanced over time is just so interesting haha
@@panq8904 I like the last point of your ramble very much. I think there was not much of riding training like today (except for knights and noble men maybe), so for the average rider it must have been scary and highly impressive to see a destrier stallion. They would not have dared to approach such a horse. And the knights did take those horses out in the fields and into the cities, rode them on tournaments (jousting), in war etc. - there was so much more going on than today. How they trained the horses for all those experiences is beyond my imagination. I own a mare and she gets so nervous sometimes beside her being 17 years old already. And she is out in the fields every other day and on the meadow - but she loses her cool a lot. If I would try to ride her through a crowded street full of screaming vendors, moving pedestrians, carriages, work places, smithes etc. (like an average medieval city on market day or something) ... she would injure everyone around her (at the very least). But still with those horses it must have worked somehow.
I know Shad talked about this but I know it can be confusing for some people: a "colt" is the term for a young male horse below the age of 1 year, a "filly" is the term for a female of the same age, the term for a young horse in general around that age is a "foal", once the foal is one year old it is called a "yearling", the term for a castrated male horse is a "gelding", the term for an uncastrated male horse is a "stallion or a stud", and finally the term for a female adult horse is a "mare". Often these terms differ from place to place, I think in England fully and colt means younger than 5 years, particularly when it comes to racing horses.
Filly foal - female horse up to 1 year; filly - female horse up to 4 years; 4 years and over = mare Colt foal - male horse up to 1 year; colt - male horse, usually entire (uncastrated), up to 4 years; 4 years and over = stallion; gelding usually occurs from approx 1 year and over. In the US (gereralising here) a colt is any young horse, male or female; usually unstarted. And a “stud colt” if an uncastrated male.
@@PintoPassion I'm from Montana so I just gave what I grew up knowing. There's too many variations in the US alone to be honest.
Plot Twist: Horses are actually aristocratic Donkies.
The world will change due to your theory. Thank you for your contribution to the human race.
Nah, it's just that donkeys are horses that can carry more stuff at once and can withstand more misstreating. Like peasants. From what I've heard, in the south of the US, people used donkeys instead of horses because horses wouldn't keep up with the misstreating slaves gave them, as well as slaves forgetting to feed them most of the time. Again, _that's only what I've heard_ , I didn't take the time to fact check that.
Just like most if not all politicians!Aristocratic donkeys that is.
BananaKitOfInternetClan I think I like your thought process here
*donkeys
from an italian viewer "destriero" is singular, "destrieri" is plural and is a common term for ridable horse, i like the video btw, very informative!
While I'm not an expert on Italian, I'm quite sure that earlier versions of the language didn't follow the same rules as contemporary Itailan.
@@tirocska for sure but lots of male words as in fiorentino (first italian) as in modern italian are with the final "o" on singular and "i" on plural, it s a common grammatic rule.
@@tirocska the fact is that we really didn't have only one language during history, because Italy as an unified nation is pretty recent compared to the rest of Europe. We had many different regional languages and dialects ( we still have many), and quite literally at some point we said "OK guys, this is Florence dialect, we take a couple of rules from here and there and this is now Italian." and really didn't change that much. And this was done between 1300 and 1500, so yeah, if you know modern Italian you can understand most of Italian text from that times.
@@alaric375 interesting but highly doubt all of italy adopted firenze dialect as the base in that time period, Liguria still had its own, venezia, Napoli, sicilia and sardinia were their own thing and still are
@@tirocska the Latin form is dextrarius, plural dextrarii. Later Italian regional forms derived from this, so endings of the same type (-o or -u versus -i) are to be expected.
Look at my horse My horse is amazing
If you didn't sing along you did it wrong.
But my ass is better (get it, ass=donkey or something like that)
@@TheDcraft Darth Maul is the best. (Maul = Mule or something like that)
JUST WHAT I NEEDED FOR MY COMIC!!!!!!!! (probably 4 years before there is even any form of a final version though)
May the Horse be with you. Always.
Nice work there shad. People always seem to make the assumption that riding a horse, nevermind riding one in battle, was easy. Let me tell you somethimg (I took riding lessons for 6 years). A horse is a living beeing. They have an own will. Yes, they can be trained but they are still sentient to some degree and they have some caveats to them. Staying on horseback is not easy, nevermind holding a weapon while doing it. Shad, have you ever sat on a horse? It requires a lot of practice. Great vid by the way. Keep up the good work.
I rode a horse once when I was a kid. I didn't have any trouble staying on (it was a dude ranch, and the horses were probably used to novice riders), but getting it to go where I wanted was difficult: it was like the horse was saying, "Stopping tugging the reins, kid. I know where I'm going, and I don't need any input from you." :)
@@JohnE9999 Yeah, I rode a horse at a ranch, and the whole time I was appreciative that he was a good little horsie, and didn't cause me any trouble. You really feel how big and strong they are, especially because I am a big guy myself, and he didn't have a problem with me. :D
Have you ever riden on a polo horse? the reins are like a joystick, leaving a hand completly free. I did dressage for 15 years, managing a horse with one hand is easy you can do everything with your weight distribution and your legs, it just takes training.
I only rode a horse once, but went through a fair few of the videos by Jason Kingsley recently on his channel "Modern History TV". Just how spooked one of the less experienced horses was by the movement from a lance impact on the target stand initially, or being a bit wary on the way back after it has been knocked over and isn't in its previous place from before riding at it with the lance is really quite something. Long banners flapping around at the end of a stick also was a thing one of his horses didn't entirely trust first time he saw it, given these simple small things under controlled circumstances can already cause fear/stress the added chaos of a full scale battle would require a huge investment in training time. I also wonder how often it happened that a horse for example may still be physically fit for battlefield combat but due to some kind of mental trauma from a past battle won't be able to do his/her function well anymore under those chaotic circumstances.
@@extrastuff9463 Horses that were ridden into battles were typically bred for aggression, directed aggression, a trait that is avoided in horses from the end of the 19th century onwards. So any horse in modern times is typically bred to be cautious, instead of aggressive, hence the issues recreating jousting with modern breeds. Also, getting a horse used to noise is a matter of training, and once a horse isn't spooked by noise, it doesn't matter what type of noise it is.
Shad, just started listening to Shadow of the conquer (chapter 19 so far). I've got to say I'm loving it from your worldbuilding, characters, and fight scenes. Carry on good Sir.
Oh, wow... You know, I actually tried researching this topic for my own book some time back and came across these same terms (though I have been sticking with the standard modern sizes/colors of horses >.> 'cause I didn't know that bit). But I don't recall "Sumpter" in any of the references. I've been using "draft" to sum up the work horses or those with more muscle for labor jobs. That was the only term I could find for that role until you mentioned it.
Draft horses usually imply large horses meant for pulling extra heavy loads, like a beer "draft" wagon. A sumpter wouldn't necessarily be a large horse, just one that isn't suited for riding, and probably has to be coaxed to even move up to a trot, but is a horse that can still pull a basic farm wagon, or carry a pack of goods while contently following another horse. It might even be a horse that was one of other classes that is now well past its prime, but still has some value left to a farmer or merchant.
Sumpters are specifically pack horses (and mules). They were used on narrow mountain passes, and so had to be sure of foot, free of vertigo and patient. As James says, they are not meant to go fast and were were not particularly high-value horses, but you can't assume that just any horse will be a good or useful sumpter.
how you described how the warhorses needed to be reminded me of how the horses are for the type of western riding I do. I do a style called "Reining", and the better reining horses tend to be short and stocky (though that's not a rule), and breed doesn't matter, they just need to stop quickly, be able to spin around and make sure they don't trip on their feet while they do it.
Thanks for being there when I can't sleep shad!!
Really interesting. Seems like the way how they differentiated horses back then is similar to how we differentiate cars today
I’m a horse rancher, and I found your medieval terminology fascinating. Thank You Sir Shad.
1:42 Technically launching yourself with a trebuchet makes travelling faster than on horseback.
Interestingly enough, most of this classifications have analogous terms in Spanish. I haven’t found anything for sumpter but the rest are as follows: Rouncey -> Rocín Palfrey - Palafrén Courser -> Corcel Destrier -> Destrero And from “rocín” comes “Rocinante”, Don Quixote’s famous horse (those who watch “The Expanse will be familiar with that name)
What is the grammatical gender of Rocinante? I always assumed it's a female word, and Don Quixotte is riding a mare, namely because in German a pejorative word for a horse is "Schindmähre", which is female, and someone used it apparently in the first translation I read. But recently someone told me that Rocinante is obviously male. Is that true?
Stefan B It is masculine
@@stefanb6539 Rocinante is male, there is chapter he gets excited over some mares, and gets himself, don Quixote and Sancho beaten up - with only Dapple (Sancho's donkey) being smart enough to run away.
when I first started watching this video "eh, this is not gonna be that interresting" after watching this video "ok, that was actually really interresting to watch"
Shad tends to do that with any topic he talks about
@@micahfoote7270 like a good athor can make a good movie out of any premise, he can make every information be entertaining to hear about.
@Kshitij Raj thanks for being a buzzkill 🙍♂️
@Kshitij Raj ok, first. he didn´t literally read off of the wikipedia page. and second, the information there is correct as far as I know. what else was he supposed to do, make stuff up? and, if you already know about that stuff then, yeah. I guess its not that informative, because you already know about it. what exactly was your point? telling us how smart you are?
@Kshitij Raj to illustrate this. its like I would be telling someone about the 2nd world war and then you would com along and say "TBH, you just repeat whats in this history book. and if you know about WW2 its not that interresting" well, DUH. obviousely I would have my information from somewhere and I am always happy to tell people something they don´t know.
Shad, as usual, does not disappoint! Bravo & Many Thanks!
Another great informative video. Thank you this is really useful for my stories. I hope you'll make a follow up video on what exactly made the horses good for those classes. Like what qualities would be instilled in them and how they differentiate from each other.
"Really Far Back" my new favorite way for describing pre-history :D
5:08 don't feel too bad. You pronounced it well there!!!
My character in my story has two horses that are very important to him, a war horse and a pack horse. I think I have just named the pack horse Stumpter.
Love this! There is so much in the equine world-this is a great introduction to it! Thank you Shad!
I learned about medieval horse classifications from reading the game of thrones books thanks for further elaborating learned more from this then my Google search.
Well, Martin doesn't really explain the differences (at least not in the books I've read so far), but he DOES use the classifications.
@@RedFloyd469 You can deduce a few things, but yes.
Same! I kept reading those names and finally broke and went down a rabbit hole. Funnily enough, never saw rouncey or sumpter.
Man, these KZhead ads are almost as long as the video. Well, Shad is worth it.
Any time I see a KZheadr with a medieval/war horse video I kind of hold my breath in expectation of how bad it will be. ;) I have been jousting and actively studying and practicing fencing on horseback for about 20 years. So when I see a video like this that finally gets some stuff right I have to say, well done! I just wish more KZheadrs would actually do some real research and maybe talk to people who actually fight on horseback before they post videos. So again, well done and thank you. PS Just a little FYI. We don't call it "prancing" if it is done on purpose. When it is a specifically trained movement it would be a piaffe or passage. ;)
Thank you for this video Shad, it has been extremely helpful for me as I write my book, which actually has quite a few horses in it.
I always had the impression that the Arabian Horse was like a peek into history into what medieval horses might have looked like. Not big, not small, but hell of an elegant marathoner.
Actually it's probably more like an Andalusian. Arabs are too light for European winters, they're more suited to hot climates and long distance travel. They also have a reputation for being a bit nuts haha It could be more like a Barb too perhaps, thinking of Arabians always makes me think of the forgotten Barb which was actually pretty influential in a lot of the newer breeds.
Arabian horses are one of the two still extant breeds that are considered to be about the right size for "accurate" Roman cavalry reenactments, the other being an Irish breed whose name escapes me.
Arabians in the Middle Ages were roughly the same size as a lot of European horses, just more refined and agile.
@@nienor1510 um... Arabs aren't too 'light' for European winters. It gets very cold in the desert.
When you said Stumpter I was like, "Ooh I like that!." When you corrected yourself I was mildly disappointed.
I know. I was like "I want a Stumpter!" but then my dreams were shattered. :(
Yeah it really stumped me.
Great Video. One horse I am quite fond of in this video is the Percheron which survives to this day. This breed is the true Destrier of the lot. Bred in France in Perche and used in the crusades these were big white draft hybrids perfect for a heavy cavalry role. Not a horse for the poor man...but for aspiring Royals looking to cut their teeth in the Holy Land. Big and Strong. Docile yet agile. Easy Grooming with no hoof feathers. A good match for the Role of war fighting against the circling Saracen. They were used again in WW1 but were nearly lost. Bar U Ranch Alberta became the genetic homestead for the breed and they have been redistributed throughout England France the US and Canada. Good Horses never die.
Every so often I come back to this video, it's one of my favourites. Excellent reference material.
So got my mission call, your next book better be out when I get back!
Yes, a horse video :D Though the whole category thing made me think because even though you said that the categories had nothing to do with breeds I assume that there were still 'breeds' (or what was similar to that) in the medieval period for the different categories. Because I can't imagine a nobleman buying a destrier who is from the same bloodline as some sumpter. That just makes no sense value wise. So logically speaking there were the categories which probably still had different body types and bloodlines in them if not called breeds. Because you can't just take every horse, raise it differently and have it being good at what they were raised at. A pack horse should have a different build from a riding horse, and different traits at that and since people back then weren't stupid I think it is safe to assume that they did do purposefully breed for certain traits depending on what they wanted their horse to do or sell them to do (even if we don't know about breeds and only the categories :) ). Also also if the destries were valued for speed and quick turns and stops then they can't have been Clydesdale and other heavy bred horses because those are slow as F*** (very calm and lovely but usually not in a great hurry to get anywhere). So yeah agree with that big horses not necessarily good for fast combat :)
Though bloodlines may hve been important to some degree the real value came from the years of intense training that destriers would receive (it is also believed by some that the closest thing we have to a destrier in modern times is a percheron but smaller)
Breeds would have to factor into it. A cold-blooded horse like a Clydesdale might be the best Sumter you've ever seen, but you would need a faster hot-blooded horse for a destrier.
@@LuckySketches Agreed, though I always imagine Destriers more like friesians (Not necessarily black, just build like them).
@@jojooffaraway2675 best horses you could get in the medieval period were spanish, frisians, hungarian and if possible arab
@@kyomademon453 Yes, aren't arabs one of the oldest horse breeds on earth? I mean today they are still valued for their great temper and loyalty.
Thanks Shawn. I was working on these terms myself but it really helps getting them all together like this.
Thank you so much for this information! I have a horse in my novel that I didn't know how to describe it properly and while I have been talking with equestrian experts, they don't know the middle ages, just horses and particulars to them, evidently I got a scene of two individuals racing one another horrifically wrong... 😱🤯. I always value and appreciate your content, MOST INFORMATIVE AND INFLUENTIAL!
"In the county of Flanders in 1297, one destrier was worth seven Diddly Doodlies."
How many foot pounds per bushel is that? Us yanks use our own measurements 😂😂😂
May the Horse be with you.
1) 4:34 - Sumpter (aka: "Stumpter" (Shad's mispronouniation)). 2) 5:15 - Rouncey. 3) 5:30 - Palefrey. 4) 6:20 - Courser. 5) 7:32 - Destrier/horse genders.
I love the chairside chats (presentations, whatever). I hope you will do more of them.
As an A Song Of Ice And Fire reader I have needed this video for a long time.
When something is important in a culture, it tends to get many many names.
I was actually having a discussion on this very subject less than a week ago, trying to explain many of the points you brought up to a friend who hasn't done the same level of research as I have into things of this nature.
You know the fact that you editted the word over it made it hilarious while being informative. You just saw the frustration on getting it wrong and it was bloddy brilliant.
Shad: there are a lot of terms in eqiunes lol and there's still the whole world of horse colors Anyways, very helpful :) I was curious to see what the classifications in dnd would mean and this put that more in perspective
Finally a subject I can weigh in on! Yes, you’re correct about the classifications of breeds. Clydes and Friesians (although Friesians are often considered otherwise) are “draft/draught” breeds. Incredibly strong. Though most people would believe they’re for battle they typically just pull heavy loads, occasionally carriages. Lipizzaners are probably the best modern example of a warhorse and they still train today! Fun fact: Lipizzans are not born with that white coat, they start out the color of coal. Also, for age, horses are called colts if male and foals if they are female, then yearlings, and after that are typically considered adults wherein they’d be referred to as mare, gelding, or stallion. Lots of individual barns and breeders have their own lingo nowadays. Great video! Super informative!
I think you meant young female horses are called fillies. Foal is a term for horses under 1 year of age that are still nursing. Then they become weanlings. After their first birthday they are referred to as yearlings.
Jeff Johnson Yes, where I’m from they’re interchangeable. It didn’t seem necessary to get into too many specifics because most people come here for historical info rather than modern-day terms for equestrianism. As I mentioned, lots of private establishments have their own lingo. ☺️
Great observation, classic dressage evolved from war horse training
@Shadiversity You might find it interesting. This is a Polish history perspective on horses and it's not quite medieval: more like 15th and 16th centuries period. So in the Commonwealth of Poland and Lithuania there was a very special horse breed. A hussar horse. These horses were not large in size but they had impressive stats. In one source I was able to find a note that not only they stood with enormous endurance and speed but also were capable of making a 3 meters radius U-turn at the full speed without losing the rider. What I find revealing about the quality of those horses are two facts: The first one is their price. While the cheapest peasant horse at that period costed around 100 grams of silver the hussar breed came at a price of 60 kilograms of silver. It was at the same time the most expensive "part" of a hussar's equipment and they had to have multiple of those horses. The other fact is that selling those horses abroad was considered a state treason and was punished by death. Unfortunately after the partitions of Poland that breed has gone extinct for none of the agressors wanted that symbol to carry on.
Hey shad!!! I got your book for my birthday a couple days ago I know it’s kinda late but I’ve been wanting to read it since I first heard about it
Well, yeah, you’re common horses then, but destriers, the specific breed they ended up using, went extinct. As in they breed horses that were good for what they wanted. Which were probably bigger than most of the others, and faster, etc. they were probably in line with good modern horses today, on the kinda larger side. Probably like 15-16 hands.
I still hope you play Mount 'n Blade someday to give your impressions of the Medieval depictions in that game (esp combat and sieges)
Thanks for this video, I have recently been really intrigued by medieval culture, and horses in particular.
I remember seeing some of these horse classifications in Mount and Blade. I had some of my comrades equipped with Sumpters, never could afford the higher-class breeds.
Sun Pin said: "In employing the army there are ten objectives for which the cavalry is advantageous: 1) When moving to counter a enemy, to arrive first. 2) to exploit vacuities at the enemy's back. 3) to pursue the scattered and strike the chaotic. 4) when moving to counter an enemy, to strike their rear, forcing them to run off. 5) to intercept provisions and foodstuffs, to sever the army's roads. 6) to defeat forces at fords and passes, to open large and small bridges. 7) to surprise unprepared troops, to strike as yet unorganized brigades. 8) to attack lassitude and indolence, to go forth where not expected. 9) to incinerate accumulated stores and empty out market lanes. 10) to forage in the fields and countryside, to bind up their children. "For these 10 tactical objectives it is advantageous to employ the cavalry in warfare. Now the cavalry is able to separate and combine, able to disperse and assemble. A hundred kilometers comprise a marching period; for a thousand kilometers they travel forth, their going and coming unbroken. Thus they are termed 'the weapon of separating and combining." (And is in fact exactly what Napoleon would do a millennium or two later, defeat in detail) And Xenophon likened a cavalry file to a sword. Saying the youngest, boldest, and most daring should be at the head of the file. While the more experienced should make up the rear. This way, like a sword it'll be sharp, capable of cutting deeply, with a strong back so the blade does not break. (I'm paraphrasing here, I couldn't find the exact quote. The book it's in apparently went awol on me).
Nathan Bedford Forrest summed up #1 pretty nicely - "Get there the firstest with the mostest."
@@immikeurnot exactly, it's right along the lines of what Sun Tzu said, to defend strength can be enough, but to attack this is not enough. To attack you need to be fast. Only than can you ensure your attack cannot be defended. And true enough we can see this even in combative sports like boxing were there's so much emphasis put on angles and such.
@@immikeurnot and I think that really speaks to the universal truth of such schools of thought that the same concepts seemingly pop up independently of each other over great distances.
what if horse called mayo and neighs, mayo-neighs
😂😂😂
And in modern equine training, getting them to stay calm under various circumstances is sometimes called "bombproofing". No actual bombs involve, just a lot of noise and flapping bright colors. I'm trying to imagine how weird or normal modern training would look to medieval trainers...
Aww Shad. Dude you give such educational videos on this kind of thing. I dont know much on the art of sword fighting or Medieval arts and ways of life but its so incredibly interesting. You make me want to get into it more. I believe I'm of a sort of caveman mentally. If I could choose a way to make a living it would be a blacksmith. Bless you good sir for providing me and millions of others with the information we want to hear
Nobody: Car owners watching this video: *laughs in over 100 horsepower*
Kamil Kluczewski horseism
Just LS swap your horse and you're golden.
Umbro?
Laughs with the ability to look away and not run into a tree or off a cliff.
This kind of info is extremely helpful for artists, (screen)writers and everyone else who does some sort of recreation of past times!
If people want to see what some horses would have looked like in the late migratory- early medieval period, look up the Icelandic horse. These are what the “Vikings” and Norseman were using, and as a breed; haven’t really changed. Quite short in stature, and coveted for their “fifth gear”; a ride unique to them. It’s in between a trot and a canter. Fascinating little thing.
9:00 Thank you for using the correct historical map for the County of Flanders
Shad find himself stumped on how to pronounce sumpter.
Bigger horses, more food. Bigger astronauts, more fuel.
Thank you once again Shad, you are a goldmine of free information on the medieval period. Will be incorporating these nuances and more as I go about writing my novels. Even though horses aren't as critical to a fantasy setting where flight, superhuman speed and teleportation are available to the super wealthy and talented magic-users, they are still important to normal everyday people since magic is sparse in my setting. Also, given the nature of a somewhat realistic magic system which accounts for how much energy a thing would usually require to get done through normal physics, a magically juiced-up palfrey would probably still be the best cost/performance option around. Flight is incredibly strenuous and costly to maintain over long distances, even for the best mages around. Teleportation is technically best, but only a handful thousand people in a world of hundreds of millions have been able to pull that one off in any given time period, so it ain't exactly readily available even if you are super rich. Therefore, horses are still very useful! Which is cool, 'cause I love 'em. Horses are awesome, and they make good sacrifice to kill off in the name of making you hate the vilain without killing off a main character! 😈 RIP 3 out of 3 horses who get names and a heartwarming scene dedicated to them in chapter 29, only to be wiped out in chapter 45! We hardly knew ya! (Am I so sorry that scene will make every horse lover cry.)
In central florida there is a county called sumpter county. And it is in an area that used to be almost nothing but horse breeders and trainers. Now most of that work has been spread out a bit but is still mostly the center of the state.