On a trip to Gunnison, Colorado we came across an unexpected challenge and it made me ask myself "Do you need a Low Gear Transfer Case?" This is a complicated answer, some will say NO, some will say YES. Once the pavement ends, how steep will the trail be? How high up in elevation are going? Are you willing to risk body damage and push the limits of your vehicle? Perhaps getting twice the MPGs in your AWD is the reason you adventure in your AWD. like I said, it's a complicated answer.
My friends in this video:
Ian @no-lodesigns 2023 Pilot Trailsport
Huy @daklakadv Lexus GX470
Matt @matt4lyf 2nd gen Toyota Tacoma TX edition
Randy @CampingRandy 2nd gen Honda Ridgeline
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NAVIGATION
00:00 INTRO
01:47 Driving to Camp (level 2 Easy)
04:49 Waking up to Mud and Ruts
12:48 The Steep Climb
18:06 Does someone need help?
24:22 Do you NEED 4Lo? (AWDs aren't all the same)
28:24 Driving up a mountain range continues
29:51 1MPH SLOW SEND!
32:47 Do you NEED 4Lo? Well... Yes and No
Follow along on the adventures with detailed write ups and GPX files on / jondz_adventuring
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Somethings I should have mentioned: *Engaging a Low Gear Transfer Case of Center Diff Lock will lock the front/rear wheels in rotation* No one has mentioned this in the comment section, but I should have pointed this out at the start of the video. I completely forgot to mention it even one time in this video. *The 2nd Gen Honda Ridgeline have two configurations* 2017-2019 Ridgelines have the Honda 6 speed automatic 14.3:1 crawl ratio. The 2020-2023 Ridgelines have the ZF9 20.4:1 crawl ratio. There's 68K Honda 6AT Ridgelines sold in the USA and so far 156K with the ZF9. *At **12:29** I had a Typo.* The discount code "JONDZ5" is correct, but the 20% was a typo. The discount is good for 5%.
Friendly FYI -- No wild birch in CO, but Aspen. Many differences between the two. Appreciate the environment you're recreating in.
In Colorado 4Lo with good gearing can be a lifesaver on the steep mountain passes. Not only does it make it much easier to get up and through obstacles, but it also reduces the wear on your drivetrain significantly. Plus some kind of rear locker is going to be a huge benefit if you hit obstacles, off camber sections, or loose rocks while going up that steep hill, as we often have in the Rockies. AWDs are very capable these days. Just have to know your vehicle's limits. I'm no hater. I say this as someone who has a re-geared Colorado, and a Subaru Outback in my driveway. The Outback does great on a lot of things, but I wouldn't dream of taking it some of the places my truck goes. :) Some good info here, but honestly I witnessed some dangerous things in this recovery that people should know about. Winches are designed to be tethered to a fixed point and using their own power to spool the line over the drum and pull the vehicle out. Nobody should be backing up and pulling on a winch like that. It was corrected, but he kept wanting to do it. People should know never to do that. The gears in a winch are not designed to be pulled on like that. You can destroy a winch that way, or create an even more dangerous scenario. Second, a tow strap needs to be 100% taut when you start pulling on it. You shouldn't ever use them with a running start and that much slack like a kinetic rope. I've seen tow straps snap like that, and also cause damage to vehicles. When I heard it tug on that bumper I winced.
Years ago I owned a 2002 Chevy Suburban V8 with 4x4 Hi/Lo. We needed to get up a very very long dirt road that was steep and the dirt was very dry and loose but otherwise in pretty good shape. No rocks, no humps, nothing to off center a vehicle. So nobody was concerned about taking their awd crossovers up the hill. And all the vehicles climbed that dirt road without issue for a while. But of the five vehicles my big heavy Suburban was the only one that did not have to constantly stop due to an overheating issue.
Not only did you Chevy Suburban have more gear reduction, but having the Transfer case lock the rotation of your front and rear wheels really helps balance the vehicles out and keep more power in the system. It’s magical to see the front and rear spin at the same rate.
I've got a 2006 V8 Suburban right now (essentially the same vehicle as 2002) and even in stock form it's more capable than modified Subaru. Factory low range and a factory rear locker goes a long way!
@@bruceyyyyythey came with rear lockers?!
@@TobyCostaRicaI think the Z71's could be had with a G80 rear end if I'm not mistaken? So not a selectable locker to my knowledge but more of a limited slip.
@@TobyCostaRica Ya the G80 is an automatic engaging locking differential.
Awesome and informative video as always Jon. Coming from a 2wd, 4x4 and now an AWD rav 4 I can say that it all depends on trail, drivers and capability of the rig. I was able to go on a lot of trail in my lift 2wd with all terrain tires. Most of the overlanding trails we done in the past 4 years I hardly need 4lo. Now having an awd system I realize having all terrain tires and a lift is a must to clear some of those rock. You have proven that AWD is super capable once it has a lift and all terrain tires.
Thanks Michael!! In serious man, when are we going to get on a trip together? I’ve never been to rattle snake canyon. Want to head up there sometime? I’m going to message you on IG, haha!
I still love that you do split screen comparisons between vehicles and include crawl ratios. That little bit of added information is always interesting. Obviously the scenery and the vehicles are awesome as always =)
Colorado is a beautiful place, the Switzerland of the USA!
Good stuff Jon - amazing documentation combined with a very beautiful drive!
Thanks Richard! 🙏
Fantastic video, one of best; no problem with the length.
Thanks Sashi!!! Glad you enjoyed it. Stay tuned for next episode, the unthinkable happens, there’s actually a lot that happens. Fallen trees (yep, I caught wind blowing down a tree on camera), escaped cows 😂, and of course, failed brakes 😱
This video is masterfully made, I love the use of the natural sounds captured in nature, very immersive. Tons of valuable data gathered and still seemed fun and not too cold or clinical. SUBBED
1- Nice lighting effects on your 1st camp night, quite original 👌 2- I drive a Tacoma, but I love or appreciate seeing the Ridgeline out there. 3- Using other words, light duty will do fine using AWD, extreme duty better with low gear.
Awesome Video and Excellent Content......Many Thanks Brother.
Wish you could have come along on the Imogene Pass trip. I’ll take the blame for it, I screwed up my wedding anniversary dates 😅. Thanks for the drone footage!!!
The fact that we can ask the question these days shows how far we've come. The reality is that it doesn't matter where the wheel torque comes from - transmission, final drive, transfer case, etc. low range gearing isn't required to be able to have adequate wheel torque and speed control. VW tried this out a few years ago with the previous generation Amarok - with the big 3.0 diesel engine a single speed AWD was all that was offered along with an 8 speed auto. There are lots of good videos testing that model off-road on KZhead and most people come away impressed with the results. Big torquey engine, good first gear, good final drive means that wheel torque is there when you need it. The problem is that you have to have SOMETHING to provide that wheel torque, if not low range gearing than a combination of something else like big low down torque or extremely aggressive 1st gear/final drive combination. Small AWD vehicles like Subaru/Rav4, etc are light on engine torque, final drive and transmission gearing. Personally I think the market is primed for a torque adder that could solve this problem - electric torque converters. The Jeep 4Xe system and the new Tundra/Land Cruiser/Tacoma Hybrid system replace the fluid torque converter with an electric motor. (same thing as Honda IMA as well). In the Jeep you can run just off that motor and it adds a LOT of torque. The Wrangler 4Xe is way quicker than it has any right to be. I think Subaru et al. could easily do something similar with a high density motor in place of a torque converter. Add 100 lbs-ft of zero stall torque to a forester or crosstrek and you would have something pretty capable. The new axial flux motors hold huge promise for power density and could easily add 150 hp/200 lbs feet in the space of a transverse crossovers torque converter. That would change the game entirely for wheel torque. From there it's just a matter of making sure your AWD system can handle it.
Thanks for the informative info about pulling someone in reverse. Love your videos.
Crazy that Toyota only put in 8 inch rears until 2009 and went to the 8.2 (except the actual LC which had a 9.5) yet the Mitsubishi montero since 1994 had the 9.5 inch rear and before that, a 9 inch.
Great trails and beautiful views ❤😊
Thanks Mr. Lexus GX460! Definitely a beautiful place! I love Colorado
If anyone asks me if they need 4LO. If you want to go camping and do some easy trails then no. If you want to go wheeling and get on some fun trails then yes you need a transfer case,armor,lockers and spare parts. 😂 and yes good point at the end, if you want to get hood mpg then all the stuff I just listed above are not for you.
Man.... I think this was the perfect example of us "just wanting to go camping" and then it ended up being a trail that required more gearing than the average single speed AWD.
great video and very useful info here Jon, bravo! (ps. I do think the blue honda was following you up that steep hill at the end way to close for my comfort lol)
Thanks Cong!!! 🙏 while most fire roads in the USA aren’t this steep, this was the perfect example why it’s good to have 4Lo (or aggressive gearing). Stay tuned for the next video though, something happens that I’ve never seen before or even seen on KZhead. BRAKE FAILURE. Can you imagine randomly losing your brakes? No E-brake or anything!
Give me my 4low! As one still driving my 1988 Toyota Truck (Standard) my friends with all the new tech are shocked at how well my old tech truck climbs hills out on the trails! 😂😂😂
My very first car was a Manual. The last one I owned was my 2010 Subaru WRX. They definitely give you a better understanding of how vehicle propulsion works, but man…. I couldn’t imagine trying to off-road stick. Hats 🎩 off to you!!! I respect the skill required!
AWD may be enough for most people’s needs in ideal conditions. But try a lot of these same trails by yourself in less than ideal conditions (ie. right after a heavy rain, snow, etc.) and a lot of those people will change their tune. AT/MT tires, 4-lo, and rear lockers are force multipliers…gives you the ability to do most trails effortlessly without beating up the vehicle or the trail. better to have em and not need em…you don’t need any of em…until you do.
That’s definitely a good point. I honestly wouldn’t recommend anyone adventure alone, but if someone chooses to travel remote solo, I’d have to recommend a capable rig with recovery gear, a winch and a satellite communicator in case things go bad.
I think Randy's lack of gear selection was more detrimental than the low crawl ratio. If he could get into the powerband, he probably would have made it. Not being able to select and hold first gear is a real problrm on the trails.
truth.. the 9AT has sequential gear selection with paddle shifters to hold lower gear.. 2020+ ridgelines have the 9speed ZF like in passport.
Hey Jon! Great vid and great scenery! After that climb, maybe time for a trans fluid change? I did mine (3 changes to try to get as much of the old out) ... got the Pentosin 5L jugs on Rock Auto (Pentosin makes Honda / ZF 9 fluid).
So, the 1 mph “slow send” climb didn’t heat up the transmission that much, I don’t think it went over 220F. if I remember correctly I hit 208F, so I wasn’t worried about the trans fluid.
Great video. Lots of good info. I just bought a Bronco Sport Badlands and have never been off roading before. Was worried when I saw how an AWD can have problems on steep trails. But was happy to see that the Bronco Sport has a relatively good crawl ratio if you put it into manual and keep it in 1st gear.
The mighty Boefeng UV5R,... Being used only on a HAM band with a HAM License of course 😂
exactly LOL
Good try @campingrandy! High elevation and steep hills are tough on our 5 -6 speed Honda platforms! We don't run into this issue very often on the east coast. Edit: Jon, good job with your thorough detail!
Im jealous of the trails you have in Colorado. I live in upstate NY and even in the Adirondacks there isnt much for trails to run, and what there is are just gravel roads you can drive in a sedan. My last rig was a '15 Touareg TDI and if I remember the crawl was 36:1, that plus the 400+lbft would climb pretty well. It also had a very good AWD system and decent mpg. Now I'm in a F150 and do enjoy the low range and rear locker, but it hasnt been anywhere the Touareg wouldnt go - or any of the rigs in this video.
This look like a lot of fun!! Can i join you guys next year on this annual CO trip?!! I'd love to see all of my Honda idols in person, and get your autographs 🍻😁. I cant wait for part 2!!!
I want your autograph! Please sign my forehead. 🙏
@popeyerubi1981 I'll sign your cheeks and chin too 😂😂
Like Camping Randy's ride! Nice graphics
It was awesome to camp out with him. He’s a fun dude!
I need to regear my 4R. Was that the Pilot Trailsport? Great vid like always 🤙
The light blue vehicle was the brand new 2023 Pilot Trailsport.
Ian should have left on that first HRG lift we did. He would have cleared that first deep puddle with no issues 😎 Looks like ya'll had alot of fun!
Tacoma crushing it, the 2nd gen Tacomas actually have a crazy amount of legroom compared to newer ones, your AWD group is super impressive.
Legroom was the reason I bought a Honda instead of a 3rd gen Tacoma. If only I was open to purchasing a used vehicle when I went to go trade in my previous vehicle.
This is the video I’ve been waiting for!!! When I bought my 6sp RL I had no intentions of going out on trails. Now that the itch is growing I’m having some major doubts. But what I wanna know from Campingrandy is, how much do your wheels and tires weigh? what size tire are you running? How much does the truck fully loaded weigh? And was it in sand mode in 1st gear when u got stuck? Colorado trails are not SoCal trails but it’s only a couple hours away and the itch is itching! Lol
I can help answer this for you. Randy had 32” tires on his Ridgeline, but I don’t know the weight of the wheel/tires. Randy brought the camping essentials and was mindful of the weight. Although, he has a steel front bumper, which is a bit heavier than a plastic bumper. Randy also had an upgraded cooling setup.
Thanks. That’s what I thought. Can’t imagine how much the bumper, plus skid plates and rock sliders add. Yea in one of his Shorts he asked for pics of how I mounted my Derale transmission cooler. So far my 6sp is doing the job for me. But seems like the limit is in sight. Might end up like Mike Tran and go get a 4wd Tacoma…..nah! Lol.
Such a nice stock friendly trails I wish we had more like this in Canada ab 😢
Enjoyed the video The trees are aspens; not birch, however.
You get your best flex with a solid front axle. Vehicles such as Jeep Wranglers and Gladiators are about the only ones you can get with any ease in the US market. I would be a Toyota person if you could get some of the JDM newer ones here that have solid front axles, but alas, they are not available to the US market unless they are either 20 or 25 years old (can't remember which). Both front and rear lockers (for true 4wd) are available and standard on the Rubicon Trim JLs & JTs along with a sway bar disconnect. As for using standard transmission, it is actually easy to off road if you know what you are doing, at least in my experience, but I have been offroading for almost 50 years. .Interestingly enough I believe I drove that trail back in 2019 in my JKUR standard transmission and it was no challenge what so ever. I was scouting for turkeys back before Colorado went to draw for out of staters to hunt public land this year. As for brakes, if you are going to be overloaded or at least heavy, brake upgrades should be one of your first mods. I presently am running power brakes, a South African made rally racing brake kit, on my Gladiator Rubicon with the Alu Cab Canopy Camper.
By the way, i recently purchased ditch lights mount, i used your code! Thanks for the discount! Hahaha!
Haha nice!! Ditch lights make all the difference when navigating in the dark, good upgrade!!
I wish you had noted on the graphs that the 20 or 21 to current Ridgeline got the zf 9spd vs the 6at in Randy's. Part of why I upgraded my 17 to a 21 since I do a lot of slow driving on forest roads with wet logs accross the road and lots of 6 to 10 inch deep runs of mud that go on for 50+ yards, and the lower ratio is helpful. On a side note, I am up for grabs if my switch from Wildpeak to Nitto Grapplers was a positive or not. Was told they handled slippery better, but I can't say I am noticing a huge difference. Thoughts?
That’s a good point! I’ll make a pinned post with some corrections. The 2017-2019 Ridgelines has the Honda 6AT and the 2020+ has the ZF9. So more half the Ridgelines have the ZF9. Actually 68K with the Honda 6AT and 156K with the ZF9. I guess the ZF9 lets the Ridgeline do actually truck things and now there’s a sales spike!
That Honda 6spd (and their even older 5spd) are terrible. Good thing they made up for it with their current 10spd auto.
Why do you say that? I know there are some issues but I have seen Honda with those transmission with over 200k miles and no issues just drain and fill transmission maintenance.
34:00 This is why I always carry an anchor.
On a winch?
What do you think about the Sand-Mud selection on the Passport (I have a 2021 with the ZF9)? That switch really seems to gear me down. My Touring edition also has the shift paddles. No lift, but Falken Wildpeaks.
Sand mode is the most capable mode. I found that mud mode still has a lot of digital Nannie’s, which can prevent progression on a trail with deep snow. On ice, the 50/50 split on the rear diff is really proactive where as keeping my ivtm4 equipped vehicle I’ll hear the sound of the torque vectoring shifting left and right. The 50/50 split is just more proactive and safer.
You might be right about the gearing. There’s gear reduction built into the rear differential. I believe it’s 2.4%, so in sand mode, if both are engaged, the gearing is a little more aggressive
Things lurking below in the mud is why I'll need repair work someday 😆
Here's my take ;- 4L is a gear I use when I am driving up or down very steep hills with loose surface or very low traction surfaces. I also use it when I am carrying HEAVY loads up/down rough and slippery slopes. When towing another vehicle that is stuck or heavier than mine I'll use 4L. When driving at speed of more than 20km/h I use 4H. BTW, try to keep some distance from the vehicle in front of you when going up steep hills, you may need the extra distance just in case the car in front have a traction issue or blow a rear axle in which case he/she will be coming back down pretty fast....It will be advisable to let the vehicle ahead get up to the apex before you start your climb.
You're going to have to make sure you watch the next video. Brake cylinder explodes on one of our vehicles
@@JonDZ_Adventuring can't wait to watch that! My sympathy to the owner of that vehicle~. BTW, that's one thing going against automatic transmission doing off road, your brakes will take more wear, although proper engine braking do help.
Towing someone out in 4l not good for your car… probably will end bad in the future
One thing I didn't hear in this video (although maybe I missed it): What is the minimum crawl ratio you would recommend for a trip like this, 4LO or not?
Excellent video! IMO you absolutely should have a low range transfer case if you want to go more places, and especially if you will be doing long, steep climbs. For example up long mountain shelf roads. It will be far easier on your transmission and engine (visible in the fluid temperatures) to have a low range option. Without a low range transfer case you may even, for example, find yourself having to winch up, or be towed up, long steep hills. 😂 Plus if you need to tow a stuck vehicle out of the mud, for example, being able to put much more power to the ground can make that task go much more smoothly and SAFELY because you won't need to rely as much on momentum. Slow with much more torque to the ground can often get the job done. Momentum causes things to break. Like skid plates 😂. Crawling over rock gardens is much easier and more controllable with a low range transfer case as well. Again, don't need to rely much, if at all, on momentum. Slamming into rocks is usually not good. Do you NEED a low range transfer case? Not if you're staying on easy roads, or else don't mind stopping to let things cool down and don't mind breaking things from relying on momentum. Risk management is much more difficult without a low range option. Your summary statement was excellent, BTW.
Another thing I didn’t point out is that a T case will lock the front and rear wheels on “rotation”. I really wanted to focus on the benefits of gear reduction though 😃.
@@JonDZ_Adventuring That's true, it does force the front and rear to turn with an even power split. With open diffs on both ends you can still be stuck with only one wheel on each axle turning though, in a loss of friction environment. With lockers on both ends you're about as good as you can get. Another factor with having a low range transfer case is that most of the time those 4x4 systems have stronger components than an AWD system. This is because those systems are designed to do things like pull really hard on other things (e.g. stuck vehicles) vs. most AWD systems which I think are mainly designed to only get the host vehicle going or (worse) to just keep it on a slick road and nothing else. For example, some AWD systems like in at least older RAV4s (probably current non electric ones too) use a fluid coupler to drive the rear wheels, and if that overheats, the AWD system shuts down, leaving you with a front wheel drive only vehicle. The main point here being that 4x4 systems with a low range transfer case often have significantly stronger components in them than those found in many AWD systems. But ultimately it depends on where you want to go and what you're willing to sacrifice to get there. A heavier and more durable 4x4 vehicle will get you to more places, but those heavier components come at a cost of lower fuel economy and often lower comfort on the highway. In many cases, it's about priorities. Myself, I have an off road 4x4 (Wrangler) nicely built as a rocklander that I only use for off road trips. I have an AWD RAV4 as a daily driver and for longer trips where off roading isn't happening. So I am fairly familiar with both worlds. That's a great combination, at least for me.
@@VideosOffRoad4WDs can be easily classified into subclasses. The most popular modern configuration would be: Body on frame, solid rear axle, front independent suspension, low gear transfer case, ABS traction control and a rear locker. When it comes to AWD, all of them are full independent suspension and unibody, but then it stops there. Some are full time systems that are built more robust, some are fragile that only couple the center diff when wheel slip is detected. MOST don’t have gearing that could climb these hills in this video. MOST rely on wheel slip to engage ABS traction control. I’ve been happy with the Passport since it has aggressive enough gearing, a full time system (the drive shaft always spins to the rear), rear diff is not open, so it doesn’t need wheel slip, has a traction control system. However the front diff is open diff w/ traction control. Next rig will probably be some kind of large midsized truck or a half ton. Probably a Nissan Frontier or Dodge Ram, but I just don’t feel a need to make the switch. Plus it would be a sacrifice. I’d also consider a Lexus GX460 if the price was right. For moderate trails, the Honda has had me covered.
the diffrence between AWD and 4 WD is the center difenrential. In AWD vehicle the center dif is controled by a computer, however in the 4wd you lock the center dif mecanicly. 4wd generaly are more prepared to offroad. AWD vehicles can do it, but they are not build for it.
That’s in my pinned post. For part time 4WDs (the majority) they have a T-case instead of a center diff lock.
@@JonDZ_Adventuring I loved the vídeo! Great landscape! I have a 2015 Suzuki Jimny in Brazil! I would love to do this trail with my vehicle.
IMO, I’ve been classifying AWD, 4WD, and 4x4 like this: AWD isn’t necessarily a full time system. It has the ability to electronically shift power between the front and rear axles (and sometimes side to side). Critically, it’s computer controlled, and doesn’t normally have an even split. This is the majority of your crossovers and such (including AT transmission Subarus). 4WD is a fully mechanical, full time system (think full-time 4WD land cruisers, MT Subarus (except for pre-legacy era cars that used a 4x4 system), or old Audi Quattro systems). They shouldn’t have a computer dictating F/R power split as it should almost always be 50/50. When needed, the center diff can be locked up via a true locker or an lsd. 4x4 is the main one for off roaders. It should be a part time system that has to be engaged by the driver through a transfer case. Unlike AWD, and 4WD, it cannot be used on hard, grippy surfaces without the potential of drive line damage. An additional lo-range doesn’t automatically make something 4x4, though it’s more common to find it on 4x4 systems rather than AWD or 4WD. I don’t think there’s necessarily a true definition for all of these categories aside from they can all send power to all wheels, and 4WD is often used interchangeably for all three of them, but this is just my opinion of how I usually break them up.
Would momentum helped for the first climb, or is that not recomended for that specific terrain/climb
He tried to “send it” twice.
Where are you finding the trail ratings?
Those are Quaking Aspen KJH MS FOREST RESOUCE MANAGE WVU 1973
The same as bike, we went from having 3x7 to having just 1x12... If you have a low gearing option on the trans, then no low gear is required...
Just curious (because I don't think I've seen any doing the trails with you yet), how do you think a new Outback Wilderness would do on that big hill? Since everyone but one person made it up, I'm assuming the Wilderness with the 2.4L turbo and better gearing would not have much trouble?
The Outback wilderness is geared 15.5:1 and the Honda Ridgeline with Honda 6AT is geared 14.3:1. Our otter AWDs are geared 20:1+, so there’s definitely a bit of a difference. With a running start and the turbo spooling, I think the Outback wilderness would be able to make it up. The turbo engine has good midrange. It might even be able to stop mid hill and continue on, but it definitely wouldn’t be easy. I try to refrain from speculating. There’s a chance it wouldn’t make it. That old Honda transmission doesn’t have planetary gears, neither does the OBW, but I also think the OBW would do a better job at holding its RPMs.
Also, I have a video of my friend @iluvdrt in his lifted 2022 Outback Wilderness where we take on a level 4 moderate 4WD trail. Look up my “oriflamme canyon” video.
@@JonDZ_Adventuring cool. Thanks
My understanding of AWD vs 4WD is a locked centre diff, not the presence of absence of low range. Smart electronics and sensors aside (ie traction control etc) discussed below. See * AWD has a open centre diff. An AWD can still be useless when ANY of the 4 wheels has no traction. Power will go to any free loose wheel. This means momentum often needed. 4WD has a locked centre diff. So really 2WD with least gripping wheel on the front and rear will get all the power. This means that some momentum is needed to maintain forward movement. Fully locked means Locked Centre, Front and Rear diffs. Maximum grip all the time but its hard on the drivetrain, from the gearbox to the wheels (all turn at exactly the same rate constantly, so can't drive on road or you will quite quickly break things, not to mention the steering will be murder). *. Extra smarts like some form of electronic traction control. This is NEVER as capable as Fully Locked (all 3 diffs locked), but the run is fully locked is VERY hard on the drivetrain. The upside of some form of traction control instead of fully locked is that' there is a lot less strain on the drivetrain. Effectiveness of all forms of traction control is very dependant on how advanced that particular vehicles traction control is. Some are poor and some are VERY good, and all things being equal, your vehicle is more likely to come out the other side of the track without breakages. The exception being really deep water or even worse, deep sloppy mud. That's where you are better off with old school lockers (fully locked diffs). Me: Owner of fully locked and heavily modded 75 series LC, Unimog U1700L with mods. Former owner of unmentionable Holden POS AWD with traction control. Very disappointed.
Some of the Range Rover models that don't have 4-low crawl up and through some things they have no business traversing, and that is obviously because the AWD system is calibrated to actually do some moderate to mild hardcore off roading. With that (Range/Land Rover not withstanding), 4-low still makes a big difference because the Pilot Trailsport, Kia Telluride X-Pro, 2024 Traverse Z71 or any other crossover with a good AWD system can't go as far as my 2005 Mitsubishi Montero Limited, and it has very little flex since it has fully independent suspension, but has 4-low and an advanced 4WD system.
I put a pinned post up. I add that in addition to more gear reduction from a low gear transfer case, there’s also a rotational lock between front and rear wheels. That gives a 4WD good balance when in low traction scenarios. Add a ABS traction control system and that makes for a very effective vehicle. The 3rd gen Montero and the 3rd gen Nissan Pathfinder are very similar in that they are both full independent suspension. But they work well with the above mentioned systems.
@@JonDZ_Adventuring Great points. I will agree with you to an extent as I've watched many videos on the new Pilot Trailsport, and if it had a 2-3 inch lift, slightly bigger tires and a front-bumper trim, it would go a lot farther than most. The new IVTM AWD system works very well overall.
not all 2nd gen ridgelines, as you know have the same transmission. just pointing that out when you show the crawl ratio should maybe show 6AT rather than the 9AT ZF equipped 2020+ Ridgelines. CHeers!
Yep, I mention that in the pinned 📍 post
@@JonDZ_Adventuring oops sorry I didn't see the ... read more =) thanks for your videos! I had a FWD Passport (OOF) and your videos helped keep me in the family with a 2021 Ridgeline.
@@user-kc1ld1nq1w it’s a good platform! 139k on my odometer, but over 150k traveled because of the taller tires 😃, still running like a champ.
lol. he's back!
Who’s back???
DAK@@JonDZ_Adventuring
@@static603 haha! That’s who I thought you were referring to! It was nice to hang with him.
4LO is essential not only on steep climb but on steep descent as well...
still like rear wheel drive base
I am Randy and I was from from east coast also (ie. MA, ME, PA). And now living in San Diego, California. I hope to join your adventures with my ‘16 LX, if invited.
As a novice to 4x4 and awd, if my question sounds stupid, my apology. my wife and daughter love sking. So every winter I drive them to ski resorts. We had experienced snow storms for the past couple years and were stucked for days. I would like to get a new vehicle for safer driving. Which is better, 4x4 or AWD? . Also, someone told meMichelin CrossClimate2 will be the best tires for driving in snow and normal daily use. Any suggestion would be grately appreciated. Thanks.
How stuck did you get? At some point, no vehicle can overcome a massive amount of snow and its just not safe to drive
Steep is steep regardless of the terrain. He should have just let him pull him up. Can't risk destroying the trans. I was cringing listening to him just mat the throttle and not seeing him move. Did you guys measure the angle of the road ?
We were gritting our teeth too and had to step in and say something. I had this cheap inclinometer I got from 4Wheelparts, but it broke (baked in the sun and the fluids dried up).
Any idea how the spare tire is mounted on the Forester? Is it on the tow hook?
Javier has a Rigid armor tire carrier (not to be confused with RIGd).
@@JonDZ_Adventuring Thanks! I kept searching after watching your video and found that exact page. But I cannot fine any version that mounts on a ball hitch, like I have.
Them soccer mom cars are fairly capable rigs on the streets in Northern climates. They handle dirt alleys with mud puddles as well as most of the rural roads to farms and ranches. Not bad!!
Yeah, and some of them climb up to these 12k and 13k foot peaks. Not bad at all.
Exactly. When you consider what they are marketed for this video is amazing. I have a Tahoe which does well except for the clearance. These cars on the video have proven their worthiness. If one wants to use them for camping and other outdoor activities and is on a reasonable path they are great.@@JonDZ_Adventuring
Anyone know what the ratio is for a current generation VW Tiguan with 4motion?
It’s 18.6:1, pretty darn good!!
Looks so beautiful up there. 34:56
To be honest, anyone that ask you if they need 4 low they either never been off road driving or they have and should not be if they ask this question. Another honest point I'd like to make is any vehicle with a front valance should not venture off road but rather stick to fire roads. Just my opinion.
Considering your dif will cook easily... Part time with locker will ALWAYS prevail!
A locked 4WD will always be more off-road capable than an AWD with a clutch based center differential. Now, I’m only going to reply to your “diffs will cook easily” comment because there’s so much confusion. The differentials in the Honda don’t easily cook. A chief Honda engineer has admitted that the “AWD HOT” warning comes up when a certain amount of slip rotations occur. So, the warning is really conservative. I’ve had it comes on about 6 times in the almost 5 years and 145K miles of ownership. The last time I had the warning was when I red lined for just 0.25 seconds in deep snow. There’s no possibility a diff can heat up that fast, so what the chief engineer says makes sense. By the way, there’s no limp mode in the Honda system.
@@JonDZ_Adventuring such a great comment buried here and I keep learning
21:08 I know the video looks different a lot of times but I would never winch at an angle like side loading. I would rather snatch block of a tree or winch to the trees.
I’m the least experienced at winching, but it didn’t seem like the most ideal situation, so at 19:42 I was like “everyone stay clear of the line”. Honestly, I haven’t seen snatch blocks used in person. I’d definitely like to know more about them though.
@@JonDZ_Adventuring gotta do a gorman winch class 😂
Here in SoCal... AWD vehicles try every weekend to do "4WD" trails and end up stuck...High Centered... Or dead w/broken transmissions. There's a huge difference between the 2... Doesn't mean your AWD can't get out there a little bit..and cross some puddles and such. They can.
I’m from SoCal, and every weekend there’s 10x more 4WDs catastrophically breaking down because they decided to take on a level 5 difficult 4WD trail (or harder). I will agree with you about AWDs getting stuck on easier terrain. As this video shows, there’s a lot of variation with AWD capability. My 2019 Honda with the ZF9 transmission has 147K mile and has driven up the coyote flats trail (in socal) many times. Where as a 2019 Honda Ridgeline with the Honda 6AT transmission would overheat and wouldn’t make it.
@@JonDZ_Adventuring your not going to see AWD on those level trails though... The trails im talking about are basic trails like Gold mountain 👈
@TroutWest Gold Mountain is the entry into Rock crawling (but it’s still rock crawling). I get asked to go all the time, and I’m not willing to try. Many 4WDs break down on that trail and I couldn’t imagine an AWD trying to take it on.
@@JonDZ_Adventuring yep. That's why I say 4WD lo is important...and can't be replaced by just AWD. You're gonna go most of the fire roads and do very well in snow ❄️
@@JonDZ_Adventuring I'd see you do some video up at Black mountain... Or rattlesnake Canyon....I think you guys would kill it up there with the footage 👍
Jon, do you have the trans cooler in this rig?
Yes, OEM Honda cooler. It's a tiny little thing and I I'm not sure if it makes much of a difference. Maybe 1 to 3 degrees.
@@JonDZ_Adventuring Gotchya. Even with the cooler, have you run into dangerous temps?
@@richeyrich2203 no, the transmission just isn’t prone to overheating, because it has aggressive gearing. For example, doing Imogene Pass, my temps peaked at 216F, where other AWDs will overheat passed 240F and damage their Rubber seals. There’s a lot of mis information by channels that confuse AWD heat warning (which aren’t really AWD heat warnings, but rather conservative rotation sensors that get triggered when there’s too much wheels slip). Another thing to point out is the older Honda/Acuras with half the crawl ratio will actually overheat at 260F many many times, and those transmissions just keep on going.
This question is confusing, sure some 4WD will out perform, better articulation….However, Recently saw a video and a stock 2023 Subaru Forester Wilderness out perform a 4WD Trailhawk on a hill climb… not saying a Wilderness will outperform in all situations. However they keep fine tuning the Xmode to make it better and it has a cooling system for the Transmission. See Sarah-n- tune review for 2022 Forester Wilderness. Wouldn’t rock crawl… the Lexus GX 550 going to be the best Lexus ever.
Commenting from Australia and I have to say I am amazed how much more accepted AWD crossovers are in the USA are compared to here in Australia when it comes to trailing. You would watch our channel and think its not extreme, with many Australian's would watch our channel and say that insane we are able to navigate our AWD through some of the trails we have in Australia, specifically the Victorian High Country. Sounds like I need to get some Americans based audience! What type of diff gearing do you have currently and what is the first gear ratio? So I can get a comparison to what gear ratio you end up on in first, as I'd like to compare that to ours given we don't have dual range box and we seem to manage just fine in our first geat @ 3.42 and 3.5 diff gears.
Hello Australia 👋! The first channel I watched about off-roading and over landing is “Ronny Dahl”. I learned so much from him. So to answer your question about gear Ratio, my Honda Passport’s 1st gear is 4.71:1 and the diff gears are at 4.33:1.
@@JonDZ_Adventuring gee that’s reasonably low compared to what we are at in our Adventra that’s quite decent!
just saw this in the news. the headline Starlink's new cellular service lets you stay connected even off the grid
I’m just curious the lack of Jeep vehicles in your videos. I watch a lot of videos like these and I usually see many Jeep vehicles like the Wrangler, Grand Cherokee, and Cherokee Trailhawk. But I don’t see many Jeeps in your videos.
There’s plenty of Jeeps in my videos. Not as many in 2023, but there’s Jeeps in my 2023 Winter episodes.
Crawl ratio on the TS is 21.8:1 😊
Thanks for pointing that out. I had a screen shot of an old car and driver data sheet that said 22.75:1. I went back on car and driver and it’s listed as 21.9:1 just like the MDX and RDX. Haha
Hopefully, the transmission will be alright ! 😅😅😅😂😂😂😂
I rarely see a Jeep Cherokee ( the small one) in these overland videos. Can anyone tell me why? They are 4X4 with a low range.
I hang out with people no matter the car brand or model. Here’s a video with a Cherokee trail hawk kzhead.info/sun/rMOLY8t-epVqjJ8/bejne.htmlsi=yQuY9nfqtGf5qY7F
Im surprised CampingRandy didn't drag Ben from HRG to go crawling - just finished the video Ah yes the infamous honda 6 spd auto I enjoyed the bit about planetary and parallel shaft transmissions. To simply put almost all transmission nowaday are planetary gear set because of their efficiency and high load capacity. Honda coming from motorcycles, most probably chose parallel shaft as it more akin to automated manual transmission applying the design to the 3,4,5,& 6 spd auto. The design is simple and quicker plus predictable/linear i.e. great for small vehicles like motorcycles and compact sedans. However, for heavy loads it can not maintain the ratios like that of planetary gear set vehicle because the gears need to be relatively close to shift move the shaft to shift and too much torque will may damage the shafts. This is probably why Honda went to ZF as they were developing the 10spd. Although even Ians 10spd ( and his video) mentioned things about Hondas 10 speed for the overland/ offroad community, mostly the 1st gear of 5.2 ( Zf 9hp is 4.7) doesnt really stay held ( safety?). Although these things only really apply to harsh conditions
Good feedback and origin details about the early Honda Automatic transmissions! Thanks for that! Also, I believe the plan was for Ben from HRG to come out, Manny from New Age Performance was supposed to come out, and I invited Greg from Traxda, but none of that materialized. It was still awesome hanging out with this group of distinguished gentlemen though!
@@JonDZ_Adventuring hahaha if 4 horsemen of Honda did show up who knows what chaos would happen 😂🙉
I'm not sure why you're not including the addition of larger diameter tires into the gearing discussion. Your crawl ratio is 10% less with 33-inch tires vs stock 30-inch tires. The problem with the RIdgeline wasn't the transmission as much as it was all the added weight and the higher gearing caused the larger tires.
That’s an impossible task. In my previous videos, I’ve pointed out that tires size from different manufacturers vary. Tread will vary. Also, listed on my crawl ratio graph it says “before tire size increase”, not like I had to do that, since most people know taller tires affect crawl ratio. The ridgeline is running 32s, which is a 7.6 to 8.4% difference on paper. I’m running 33s, which should be a 10% difference on paper, but comparing my speedometer to my GPS, it’s a 9.3% difference.
Tire Rack shows actual measurements for most tires they sell. Revs per mile is the key spec there. While my speedo doesn't reflect the change from a 29" to a 30" at all, the stock tires were measured at 715rpm while the 30" are measured at 690rpm. It's pretty easy to find that info nowadays and most models between brands are much closer to the standard size than they used to be. But weight matters too, and with a single speed transfer case, it's going to matter significantly more. @@JonDZ_Adventuring
@@MrNicholg#tiregate. If you measure the actual tire, it’s rare that it will match what’s on paper. Use www.tiresize.com, it’s faster than using tireracks website. Do I know the exact size, brand and tire model my friends are running? No, I do not.
That thin aluminum is no "skid plate" You need thick heavyweight steel to be considered a real skid.
It’s 1/4” aluminum. Doesn’t really get thicker than that. I knicked the corner, a direct hit on the bottom would be a different story. What I should have done is drive through that mud a little more cautiously. You’re definitely opinionated, but thanks for the support and engagement! The algorithms love you ❤️
New ridgline crawl ratio is 22.25
I would think lockers would be more important than lo or hi. I rather have lockers with hi or lo than just lo or hi
At the turn of the millennia, Toyota swapped out the Mechanical Rear Locker on the 100 series Land Cruiser in favor of their TRAC system (ABS traction control). Lockers are cool, but if you don’t know how to use them, they can get you into trouble. Locker slide is scary stuff on a shelf road.
Every time you include crawl ratios, I have to go recalculate mine, since I forget every time. I did a screenshot this time 😂 Thanks for another great video!
Thanks Dean! Your Colorado is geared around 50:1 stock I believe 😊
@@JonDZ_Adventuring 37.8:1 stock, I should be at 45-ish to 1 (Regeared) 👍
The narrator says "Birch Forest" "They are connected at the roots and make some of the largest organisms on the Planet". 😂 Those are Aspen trees and you should be referring to Aspen Forests. I hope you aren't from a state that has Aspen trees 😂
Haha! Thanks for the correction, and no I am not 😳
I have both an awd and 4wd, i love both and being a kind of "Cheering for the underdog" type of person i have taken my awd rav4 all thru baja, from muddy trails in the desert, rocky steep inclines to Catavina, awful 4wd trail to get to Scorpion Bay and another one to get out, all and more in the little rav4. I guess i will choose 4wd if the trip ask for it, the more remote the spot, the more gear i have to carry and there is more probability of the trail being washed out or something wich may require higher ground clearence or 4Lo. Baja trails get sketchy pretty fast and you have to be prepared. Anyways i will continue to take my little rav4 on the adventures i know it can handle, i have plans for better tires when the trail terrains need replacing, maybe some skidplates and who knows there are developing a rear E-Locker for my rav4, maybe in the near future i will consider it.
Tim here from the PNW. Sorry, but your "mud pits" were extremely laughable! I guess everything is relative.
They are quaking aspen trees--scientific name "populus tremuloides," not birch trees. I know all of that area well. As to your AWD/4WD comparison, you miss the main point--the AWD may be able to go some places that a 4WD with a low-range can, but the AWD will incur FAR more mechanical wear if it is used very much on such trails. A good 4WD will outlast an AWD by tens if not 100K miles or more when used regularly on backcountry trails. Extra wear and trail damage to an AWD vehicle will negate any fuel economy savings of an AWD compared with a 4WD in backcountry use. By the way, I've used 4WDs for both work and recreation in the Rockies for over 50 years. I know what works and what doesn't.
Cool, thanks for the info. Yeah, my Passport and that new Pilot didn't break much of a sweat on this trail which means they weren't close to being stressed out. Not on a trail like this, not on a trail like imogene pass. The trails that are of truly "difficult" diffculty, I avoid, which means... my rig just isn't going to run into much stress. With your 50 years of experience you must know that not all vehicle manufacturers are of the same build quality. You must have lived through the Ford "Exploder" transmissions, which unfortunately made a comeback in the form of the jointly made Ford/Chevy 10 speed transmission. It doesn't need extra wear and trail damage, they just grenade. Are you giving me subtle clues that you're a Toyota guy?
@@JonDZ_Adventuring Believe it or not, I've not owned a Toyota 4WD, but I've owned Toyota cars--absolutely reliable. As for 4WDs, over the years, I've owned and driven Chevy/GMCs, Fords, Jeeps, and International Scouts--multiple examples of each. Of the Big Three, I've owned examples of each that were some of the worst vehicles that I've owned, and some of the best. Just an example, I owned two different Chevy 4WD's--almost exactly the same, just 2 model years apart, but assembled at different plants. One was one of the best 4WD's that I ever owned; the other was the worst--totally falling apart at 48K miles--both used and maintained the same way. They all have their strong and weak spots.
You’re reaching on some statements 😂
Don't make excuses for Honda Odyssey with a bed. It's just not made to do the work of a truck. That's why you brought two Toyotas with you.
The only difference between that Ridgeline and my Honda passport is Hondas 6 speed automatic and the ZF9. Honda messed up by putting that transmission in the Ridgeline and after 3 years, they gave the 2020+ Ridgelines a transmission that can do truck like things. The ZF9 Ridgelines make up the majority now. 58K 6 spd Ridgelines and 158K ZF9 Ridgelines now. Some people will joke about the Honda odyssey, but it’s a van. These other AWDs are based on sedan chassis, which are of lighter duty. These mid sized Hondas share the body of the previous gen Odyssey, but the Drivetrain, Subframe and suspension is completely different in the Ridgeline/Pilot/Passport. I use to drive a 2008 FJ cruiser, which is Americas #1 sought after used car, but you couldn’t pay me to put me back in one 😃.
For most people AWD is enough. Got an explorer and some trails just like this. It's alot of fun and more than enough for me. I just change TPU fluid every 25k instead of 35k.
Changing fluids is key. I’ve been changing my PTU fluid every 15K instead of every 30K. The Explorer PTU is larger, Honda midsized is only 0.45L.
Im not talking smack but if you guys like to do this stuff you guys should get better rigs because you guys shouldn't even put it in 4x4 for that trail
If you don't put it in 4x4, then the transmission in a 4WD will overheat..... I've seen this many many times. That's pretty dumb, not talkin smack tho.
Honda has been so disappointing for years. Why, great off-road motorcycles and atvs. Japanese vehicle mechanic for 40 yrs. Owned 1991, 94, and 2000 land cruisers , 2006 Volkswagen Touareg V8 4x4 and land Rover lr3 hse HD . Oh no mud puddle. OMG toys for children.
You need to take anti-anxiety medication you’re always scared of everything
I wish there was a pill to help you. But there isn’t 🥺
Some older AWDs like Subarus came with Lo ranges Edit: spoke too soon lol
That backing up just had me in stitches. Why are you guys ass kissing on a steep hill climb? Shit happens. Stay safe.