Does your music sound AMATEURISH? Pro Composers tell you why.
2023 ж. 1 Ақп.
316 184 Рет қаралды
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I want to chime in on what the Spitfire guy said about using live players. Using live players doesn't always improve the track if you don't choose the right player. Case in point: I was working as a music producer in Germany at a local studio in Dusseldorf. We found this young artist from England whom we wanted to produce. It was just him and his acoustic guitar, and he would sing his original songs in front of you...and you'd be gone. Fantastic songs and talent. Anyway, we record him and decide to overdub his guitar playing with a pro session player as this young guy's playing was not perfect: hesitant, timid, and not all strings strummed at the same time. We thought we could improve on that. So we hired this famous german session guitarist that, apparently, had been playing session guitar on almost every hit on the radio. His techie came up a day earlier with a van to set up. In the van, over 100 guitars, some of them costing tens of thousands, many, many old famous amps, microphones (U78s, etc) and also his own matrix switching system so that he could dial a different sound from the control room. When he set-up his amps, he's measured the distance of the mic to the amp with a measuring tape. You get the picture yet?... So he starts playing. The songs were not difficult technically speaking, so he played them faultlessly, even when double-tracked or triple-tracked, it was perfect, utilising the perfect guitars, amps and microphones. Perfect. Yet, after he left (and got paid solidly), his tracks - we realised - were totally inadequate and soul-less, and un-usable. Why?...TOO perfect! Cut the story short, we went back and re-recorded our young artist, with his hesitant, shy, vulnerable playing style. It was magic. That's what the song needed: this vulnerability and innocence and "analog" imperfection, so much so that I even kept the creaking sound of the bar stool in his booth just before he started playing! Food analogy: it was like the crust of a fresh French baguette... Choose the right human player, because any player - just a player who's human - might not actually improve the song, that's my point.
Excellent point, and i think it plays to the last part Jon talks about as well, and the core of the comment. The "live" player is there to bring _realness and authenticity_ to the track. In your example the imperfection was what made the performance authentic. :)
Great point. In another situation it may have been the other way round and you may have needed a virtuoso. It's about what works.
Sounds like a Conor oberst or Elliot smith situation. I couldn’t imagine songs like First day of my life or Needle in the hay being some super slick perfect performances, they just wouldn’t even be the same songs if they were
could you please post a link to these fantastic songs, so we can hear for ourselves?
"over 100 guitars, some of them costing tens of thousands, many, many old famous amps, microphones (U78s, etc) and also his own matrix switching system" Hilarious. Trying too hard. We never use the "perfect" players at all. Soul death.
Even with basic gear, you can create a helluva sonic landscape. Limitations breed creativity.
I strongly disagree with this kinda opinions as it's harmful for believing such a wrong believe that doesn't work and I think it's a confusion and a limitation for people's mind who really want to do something beautiful it's like some of the religion's lie that have other reasons(like fooling you) but puts you in limitation places as you can not fly with fly simulator programs and originally I consider it's coming from vst investors (like famous engineers who have hands on making them) and EDM producers who make the worst sounding fl studio based songs and give it to real people with real gears to make them sound ok
@@miladbarikani3591 Basic gear could be considered singing in a chapel, boom you're creating a sound that reaches the heavens. Know you're coming from a different place with this but felt worth the detour.
yes, I agree. For my first album (instrumental cinematic-ambient genre fused with postrock / synth arp), I just had a strymon bluesky pedal and created some really huge and beautiful/otherworldly sonic soundscapes. Feel free to go listen on my channel if interested and sub if you like. Have a great day
@@miladbarikani3591 do you even produce music. this comment is dumb
This is why I love Crasher Crust. To all "SOUND GUYS" - F off! Brilliant summary of squeaky-clean production tightwads. Keep it real.
As someone coming to this from the opposite end, a total hobbyist, having fun learning, these insights are great. Help me understand why different parts of what I record sound like different shades of dog snot.
also you find nuggets with mistakingly tweeking stuff, "how did you find or tweek that sounds?" exploration specialy in masterising stuff pan and distance its endlessss
Yeah my problem was trying to put too many instruments at once then the timing off and sounds like he’ll cut out some tracks and it’s boring
I think learning to copy is awesome. For me, that's how I got good at everything from bass to drum programming. I'd say, "how'd they get it like that?" And go deep into the rabbit holes until I could recreate it. Then you can put it together with other stuff. This is all such great advice and feels fantastic to hear
Exactly what I've been doing. How'd they get this and that element to work so well as a whole. Especially current chart pop music. Putting the track, or even better, the individual stems into my daw and trying to replicate the arrangement structure, where the drum rolls come in etc. I'm using some Oliver powertools 1, 2 & 3 one shots atm. The hope is to get as close as I can to the sound and eventually be able to go my own way. I think alot of pro producers gained alot by learning this way too. I'm not a pro, so I'm not quite so pressured, but I'm with you in enjoying this method of questioning, learning and putting into practice!
yeah, I agree. Learning by ear was a key beginning for my music. Feel free to listen to some on channel if interested, have a great day man.
And when you hear something that sounds great, how do you go about figuring out how they made that sound?
Thank you for pointing out that gradual growth gets you there. As a hobbyist, wearing all the hats can be daunting and you have to give yourself some grace in the process. There's a lot to learn about singing, songwriting, playing various instruments, arranging, tracking, mixing & mastering. Labels hire a seasoned professional to handle each of these tasks. Weekend warriors like myself will keep moving up that in-the-box production hill slowly but surely. 👍
I still remember buying an album of a popular artist the day it came out (back in '98) and got a surprise ticket to a back lot concert the next day (behind the store). This was an artist who had sold millions of albums previously. Anyway, he didn't have his band with him so he played his own guitar, but then the song had a piano part and he literally slung the guitar behind his back with a short pause in the music and started playing piano. The song on the album was professionally recorded and mixed, but here he was playing two different instruments, like, "hold on, let me switch." it was great.
Just a standard musician switching between instruments but okay lol
ya gotta love the real ones, they just are clearly in their element and at the top of their game . often a life changing thing to witness . a performance of this genuine-ness level . We know from when we grew up that talent like this exists . it's possible that our culture is not as focused on music as it once was. I got to the point when I realized that playing my instrument is a cultural responsibility
Jon, your videos are not only extremely informative but SO well made and a pure joy to watch! That’s why I always prefer your vids over others. Thank you so much for your efforts! Best, Andy
I appreciate the camera angles you chose, your videos are always composed so well. And thank you for all of the tips!
Music is felt, not heard. Good players will always create a feeling that's unique and special. Great talk, appreciate it.
I think a lot of the comments were probably based on one’s own insecurities and obstacles they’ve overcome (including mine). We are hyper aware of our weaknesses as artists and it’s easy to spot those in others. What I like about this video is your ability to discuss the journey of the artist and how being “amateur” at something is actually a strength because it creates space for learning moments. Continually showing up and working hard at whatever one feels needs attention in their craft is perhaps one of the most important aspects of being creative today.
I think there's a divide between a hobbyist musician/composer that dreams of fame or at least a following verses composers who want to earn a living being somewhat anonymous. Maybe the term "working composer" would be a great distinction.
agree
With it being on twitter, there's also probably a majority that have never learned a piece of music on an instrument but are incredibly judgy based on something they heard on a podcast once that they think makes them sound smart.
Your chill vibe but wealth of knowledge is rare. THANK YOU.
Another great topic and video Jon. You’ve got that “fireside chat”, homespun chat thing pretty much nailed. Your sincerity and down-to-earth experience approach is a breath of fresh air
Thanks for spending the time to help us all out.
Tremendous information, Jon! Thank you for wrangling all those comments into some powerful and productive content.
Another great video Jon. I’m currently tackling the whole EQ Muddy v Thin mixes. It’s reassuring for me to know I’m doing some things right. The more I write the slightly easier it gets.
WAIT WAS THAT ME IN THIS VIDEO?! This was an amazing video, Jon! You put a lot of good time and thought into this topic, and I'm super glad you put this out. have a good one!
First time watcher on your channel. I love your perspective on this. The good general walk-through of the topic with real tips and suggestions sprinkled in along the way, that anyone can put to use right away makes for a really inspiring and useful video. I especially found your suggestions on the topics of production and mixing really good and easy to put to use. (This might be because I'm currently trying to improve my understanding of mixing for the N'th time :) I will definitely be checking out some more of your content.
For me definitily playing mistakes are the worst. Bad tone quality is one thing, but the first things my friends always noticed when I started making music were timing issues or other mistakes. The most important thing I learnt was not to be lazy, practice my stuff, do as many takes as needed and edit every thing that is bothering me.
Isn't it amazing that you have to " learn" your own song? I struggle with that, mistakes and timing issues as well. Keep on keeping on.
Ugh same. I used to be incredibly lazy when it came to good takes. I'd spend more time trying to fix it digitally than it would have taken to just practice and re-record the part. In my experience, I can hear every shortcut I'd take, so it's best to hunker down and get it right.
melodyne :P
Excellent video! I learned more in the video than a dozen others. Thanks for putting this video out.
Your vibe, production quality, and content is inspiring and superb. Quickest subscribe I’ve ever hit. Keep it coming.
this was really informative, thank you. for my fellow hobbyists: don't try to cram all those cool new musical concepts you learned about and all those sick ideas you had in a single track. Keeping things clear and focused is really important. At least thats what I've learned from my experience. Oh, also make "breathing pauses" in your melodies even whe making instrumental music (you don't always have to, but it's generally better this way).
All the new camera angles! It's been a real joy watching your channel get more "pro." The lessons you describe here for music apply in this world too... and you keep getting better and better. Great work, my friend.
That "leading the listener to the next section" bit... that's the one IMHO, in terms of the underscore world in particular. 100%
I just noticed the twitter bird in your thumbnail 🤣
Thanks, Dan! You always pick up on my points of emphasis for each video. New angles feels like a new studio!
@@JonMeyer I have been watching... closely... intently. Imminent? 🤔
i only play unprepared live improvs daily on live stream - this not just a great creative outlet but also tremendously helped to fight perfectionism - most thing wont be perfect in this situation but we just have to keep going & build on that. great video, great insights / tips
Glad it helped!
Right on, Jon. I gave this video two "Amens" and and "Atta boy!" out loud while watching.
This video was my introduction to your content and your channel. Good stuff, I subscribed!
I'm glad the algorithm has blessed me with your channel today. I already feel it's going to be a tremendous source of information ❤
Wow, thank you!
great advice, and a thoughtful and beautifully shot video!! 👏🏻
The editing and presentation of this video is perfect, well done.
Thank you very much!
First time watcher. That was amazing. Definitely subscribed for more.
I just discovered your channel due to your Hearth and Hollow reviews. Great teaching on this one. I'll be working my way through your past takes. Thank you!
This is the best defense of a question, and a great distillation of philosophies. “Tension” is a great word.
A good mix starts with a good arrangement.
The pyramid of mixing is such a great visual analogy! Great video and advice!
Glad you think so!
Didnt think this video would be so good... but it was :) Thnx for a great run-though on this topic 👍
Rarely do I comment on videos, but this was a fantastically informative little discussion. Gained a new subscriber, good work
First video I've found of yours. Love it man! Looking forward to watching more of your videos. Nice scene changes.
Awesome, thank you!
This video is amazing! Thanks so much for making it.
Thank you for sharing your years of experience with us.
i needed this, thank you so much
This is a great video topic, Jon!
My gosh! This was SUCH a beneficial to watch/hear. As someone just starting as a media composer, I found so many valuable nuggets. You have a new subscriber here👍
Glad it was helpful!
Excellent vid, really practical info, thanks Jon 🎉
Sick video man. Thanks:)
Incredibly helpful video. I love the production of your video, and just everything. So wonderful, thank you!!!
You are so welcome!
Killer as always, Jon!
Thanks for the insight 🙏🏾
Good Vid. You always drop great info.
I will leave the detail topics to others as I am learning... I will say your set and editing is very good, your use of warm lighting vs. blue LEDs strips, is like watching honey baked video 🍯
An excellent video; what an underrated channel. You deserve more subs. On the last point you made, I would only reference the quote from The Perks of Being a Wallflower, which says, "We accept the love we think we deserve." It goes the same for money. The reason so many of us work for free, especially at the beginning, is that we let our artistic doubts and perfectionism enter our business side of the practice. It is absolutely crucial to strive for better and better work, never being completely satisfied with yourself, but that should be left aside once we turn into a salesman who needs to sell the product. These are two completely different modes of thinking that should normally be embodied by two different people. Many of us can't afford to have a personal agent, so we need to do both roles. Which is a bitch.
Very good straight ahead talk demystifying things , greatly encouraging for those who could use practical advice - thanks for sharing!
KZhead heard me playing your cd that I bought off you in 2011 on Magnolia street, in Ft. Worth. Nice to see you again, Jon.
Super valuable advice! So much of what you have said I now understand I have been doing intuitively and this could be tremendously helpful to new music artists looking to learn how to get better
This was so good, I subscribed
I would add the slight caveat that sometimes composers mock up pieces with string or drum plugins and don’t spend a ton of time making them sound realistic because the person they play it for knows it’s meant to be re-recorded with real instruments. So I’d separate demos / mock-ups from music that’s presented as final
Yes, I guess it depend on the workflow. I like giving the general idea of what I am looking with what we have already to a real pro, sometimes they come up with something even better than if I'd given them the notes to play.
you still want to make it sound as polished as possible. i’m sure you know and understand this, but spending a few hours mixing a demo can make or break it. a well mixed demo will be picked over a poorly mixed one in many cases
I like how this is more about the overall production before the mix. Whatever you know that will help me learn to produce listener friendly music, that's what I want to know.
First time watching one of your videos! Great job. Looks and sounds great and the information is super valuable.
Awesome, thank you!
Super helpful video! Venus' reply and your discussion of it its super helpful.
thank you so much ... your style of talking and teaching is fab, i learnt so much thank you again!
Very good suggestions that I wish I had learned early on. Managing the mid range is the toughest and took me quite awhile to learn because it seems everything lives there. Filtering out the frequencies that exist but are not necessary and listening in context instead of spending loads of time on each individual instrument helped me more than anything. Wish I would have had this to learn from back in the day! Enjoyed the video sir!
Compressing just the low mids (100 to 300hz) can take your mixes to the next level too. As well immediately limiting the peaks before doing anything else.
Hey man I am so glad something positive and informative came from that thread (I was following that thread real close for advice. Reckon Twitter is quick to dogpile on Christian right now but I'll keep it to Twitter. Would absolutely love to see a video on voice-leading into transitions. Thank you!
transition video will happen soon
That was food for creative application. Thank you, thank you, and thank you.
! ! ! Woah this video was *phenomenal* … it answered the questions I was still trying to figured out what were! Thank you so much.
Glad it was helpful!
Wow pretty much everything about this video is fire. High high quality thank you so much!!
Appreciate it!
Loved this video! Jon is absolutely talented youtuber, i haven't come across with a lot of youtubers who can really teach or express things truly and not just for the sake of making youtube videos. Thanks a lot for making this, I would love to get your inputs/critique for my music.
Even though this form didn't exist back then, I could totally see you in this position doing the things you do back in the days of Hart Hall. Great content, man!
Hello! This video was challenging, compelling and inspiring! I especially loved the principle of "putting in the work" that you shared at the beginning of this video, as aspiring composers need to learn constantly to perfect their craft. I put myself in that category and appreciate the concise, stream-lined and to-the-point approach to you've taken to help us fast-track our success. Thanks so much!!!
You are so welcome, Vance!
Yes it does. Thanks for asking.
Great video. Glad it came up on my feed. Subscribed.
Amen, brother! One of my best sounding mixes was one where I ran the Main Out through Stereo Reverb. Every performer in one space. For that recording, it sounded great. Thanks
Thank you for this video and breaking down the different aspects for free like this on KZhead. A lot of what you are saying some people keep behind pay walls.. the practical knowledge to actually help someone improve if they consciously apply it.
Stumbled across your channel. Nothing but great information and well composed videos. Thanks for your opinion, your helping a ton!
Awesome, thank you!
@@JonMeyerI hope what I'm about to say/ask , makes sense : I actually know from personal experience the origin story of the hit viral song that I'm going to ask about ( that few people actually know ) . What do you think about Miley Cyrus's song Flowers and what awards do you feel it should have won at the 2023 VMAs ( IF you can answer that second part without any bias ) ? ♑️✍️🇳🇴🇦🇺
Awesome video. Some good points.
Great advice, Jon! 😄
Great conversation and great points. I remember the first time I submitted music to a music library after finishing my degree and I was told it sounded like a student wrote it. Definitely an ego killer but it's what I needed to hear even though I didn't realize it at the time.
There's gold in this video for all musicians and producers
I've always l had the same picture of an upside down pyramid too. I was so excited when you said that
There are literally no people born with these skills. Even if you have composition talent, technique is technique and it takes years to develop.
Nah, I was born with my ears fully trained, a prodigy on all instruments, and I could even sing opera. sadly I lost all that when I started making music.
If the question had been “What things do you think make a track sound more professional?” then I think there may have been less controversy in the answers. There was lots of great advice to up your game but might have come across critical labelling people as “amateur” (which tends to be used in a derogatory context).
Yea, that would have been a better way to phrase the question. Lesson learned, but glad the tweet was seen by so many, which led to some excellent advice.
@@JonMeyer nothing like a bit of controversy to get people talking!
@@StephenTallamyMusic 🤣
In the industry pros don’t talk like amateurs so it’s common that we say stuff like…that sounds like shit. It’s not a big deal because we know the industry. It’s not for everybody. Actually, to expound on that…the industry like aggressive people.
love the message boss
Thank you Jon for your cogent and lucid presentation on a highly subjective subject. I look forward to more and like and subscribed. Thank you for sharing your superior knowledge on music and in regard to the indie musician trying to make a difference yet lets diffidence creep in.
@📥via tele_gram👉@JonMeyerMusic Hi Thanks! What are your prizes?
Really insightful video, good advice, thank you for sharing. Something I see quite often in published scores and arrangements these days is a lack of phrasing, articulation, dynamics, expressions and use of some of the techniques that can be specific to certain instruments. These can instantly transform a piece of music by adding in feeling, punctuation, etc. and provide better direction to performers to interpret the music.
hey Jon! great channel! thank you for the tips :)
I’m on the middle, wanted to say you are a good narrator😊
I love the tone of this video so much.
Summaries Muddy Mixes: This is a common issue where there's a build-up in the low mid frequencies (200Hz to 500Hz). This is often due to the choice of instruments and how they're mixed together. The speaker suggests thinking of mixes as an upside-down pyramid, with the low frequencies at the bottom and the high frequencies at the top. Lack of Dynamics: Many new composers fail to effectively use dynamics in their music. This can be especially problematic when trying to recreate an orchestral performance or other complex soundscapes. Understanding how to manipulate the dynamics of an instrument can greatly improve the quality of a composition. Unfinished Music: The speaker recommends always trying to make a track sound as polished as possible before sending it off. This includes spending time on mixing and mastering the track to the best of your ability. Misunderstanding the Genre: It's important to thoroughly understand the genre you're working in. This includes researching the best music in that genre, learning about the recording techniques used, and understanding the mindset of the creators in that genre. Lack of Originality: Many new composers struggle to find their own unique sound and instead end up sounding like other artists. The speaker suggests learning from multiple artists and combining what you like from each to create something uniquely yours. Looping Sections: Overusing loops can make a track sound repetitive and uninteresting. It's important to make your music change and develop over time, even if it's an underscore track. Hiring Live Musicians: The speaker discusses the benefits of hiring live musicians to add to the quality of the music. While it's possible to create professional-sounding music using only digital tools, live musicians can add a level of authenticity and depth to a track. Reverb: The use of reverb was also discussed. The speaker suggests using the same reverb on all instruments to create a cohesive sound. By ChatGPT 4 😅
😂
I like the upside down triangle concept. Thank for that, and thanks for caring.
Great tips Jon!
Subscribed! By the way the video production here is excellent
Yup. Just learnt lots of stuff 👍
Very helpful, thank you!
I saw that tweet and was going to respond, but the replies were heading south quickly. Love that upside pyramid reference! I say the exact same thing.
Great stuff, thanks!
Really great summaries and advice you’ve gleaned from that twitter storm! My contribution was a bit reactionary and more about my own issues…
The tweet was fine. As an amateur I am extremely interested in what can make me improve. Pinpointing to something concrete to improve is INVALUABLE to everyone that would like to further improve their skills and abilities. If you can't take criticism, you won't ever improve. It took me years to learn this, but now at 52 I am much better at separating my ego from my music and responses to it. I often disagree with feedback, but never sad or offended. I in part learnt this by being in studios with producers and engineers who didn't put up with any crap. To paraphrase what one of them said to me: "I don't care how you feel, we need to finish this song. And you need to play the part or we'll find someone who can." We finished the song and I eventually learn my lesson; It's all about the song, and the performance. Not about YOU. I missed the tweet as it happened myself, but I am not surprised it got the responses it did. Musicians and writers often have fragile egos and often struggle to separate their feeling from what they have crafted. I think it's some part of creativity and the fact that songs and performances live side by side in out head with our feelings. Most professionals know how to take feedback and criticism, and many non-professionals don't. I see this all the time, and I am a victim to it myself. Even now, there are time I have to swallow my pride, count to ten and get my shit together. It's all good. Having ones feeling hurt doesn't last. It I'll pass in a minute.
You made a great point about ego. I used to be very attached to my songs in my teens and 20s. Those songs were "me". I don't feel that now, maybe it's an age thing (I'm 47 btw) but my music is "what I do" not "who I am". I feel this detachment is beneficial when wanting to improve and learn because criticism is not a reflection of us or what we did but rather a look into what we can do. Not sure if I made sense or just made this too philosophical. :)
That's not a music thing, that's a human thing. Regardless of your occupation, doing the job and not making it about your feelings is a crucial part of what it means to be/act professional. :)
@ghost mall very good point.
Nice, balanced view of things. Refreshingly so.
Hey man, as a professional musician, at an intermediate level, I didn't understand all the terms u used, but I certainly knew what the jist of it was. You have a great way of explaining things which really resonates to me, therefore I subscribed and will get caught up in your other videos. i don't often comment or subscribe, but your content is worth it. Thanks for being so clear and unbiased about music, just the way the best people in the music biz have always come across to me. Nice pickin'.
Thanks Jon for putting the "ball in the air for multiple bats to be swung at it". Learned something, so thanks again.
I had horrible mixes at my home studio when i first started. Didn't have the internet like we do today so i interned at a music studio that had an analog room and a digital room. I learned in the analog room and you could literally get a different mix each pass. But learning the long form mixing helped my digital mixes tremendously! Many of the tips here I learned the hard way.. nobody was feeling my music. Then my issue was too much polish and my mixes weren't gritty enough lol.
New subscriber here and novice musician. I mostly record for use in my KZhead videos but I'm always striving to get better. Who knows, maybe someday other people will want to use my music in their videos. Either way every time you sit down to record you have the opportunity to create something amazing.
The upside-down pyramid way of looking at a mix is super handy and eye opening. I've watched a lot of videos about how to mix, and this is the first time I've seen something like that. Thank you!