Tommaso Tesei: Dhu-l-Qarnayn, Late Antiquity, and Rethinking Qur'anic Authorship
In this video I interview scholar and friend Dr. Tommaso Tesei. Dr. Tesei is an Associate Professor of Religious Studies at Duke Kunshan University. Prior to this he was a Patricia Crone Member in Residence at the Institute for Advanced Study. He was also previously a Polonsky Research Fellow at the Van Leer Jerusalem Institute in Jerusalem. Dr. Tesei received his PhD at the La Sapienza University of Rome and works on matters relation to Late Antiquity, the Rise of Islam, and the Qur'an's interaction with Syriac Literature.
In this interview we discuss the Alexander Legend in the Qur'an. The Alexander Legend is a Late Antique Christian legend which also finds its way into the Qur'an under the name of Dhu-l-Qarnayn. We also discuss the possibility of multiple authorship for the Qur'an, as well as the extent of Christian activity in the Hijaz.
I hope you enjoy this video and please remember to like this video and subscribe to this channel for more content like this!
Loved the vdeio! can't wait to learn more from scholars in the field!
Having been trained in a traditional NELC approach to Islamic Studies, I find this very fascinating and refreshing.
I was deeply informed by your work, Dr Musa!
@@DrJavadTHashmi I'm glad to hear it!
هولاء المستشرقون لا يبحثون عن الحقيقة و لكن هم لهم اعتقادات مسبقة معادية للاسلام و يستخدمون لغة البحث العلمي و التزييف و التحريف لاثبات تلك المعتقدات, و هم لا يختلفون في شئ عن الاسلوب الذي اتبعته الفرق الباطنية عبر التاريخ الاسلامي بتفسيراتها المنحرفة للنصوص لتأكيد معتقداتهم, ولذا تجد هولاء المستشرقون يستشهدون باقوال الفرق المنحرفة الباطنية او غلاء الشيعة و لا يهتمون كثيراً من مصادر الاسلام الاصلية, فالمسلمون يتبعون الدليل و هولاء المستشرقون يتبعون الهوي, و لا يعملون بالقاعدة التي بني عليها علماء الاسلام العلم الاسلامي و هي "اذا كنت مدعياً فالدليل, و ان كنت ناقلاً فالصحة" اي اذا كنت تدعي شيئاً فعليك اثباته بالدليل المناسب له سواء كان دليل عقلي او تجريبي او احصائي مرصود, و ان كنت تنقل خبر عن النبي عليه الصلاة و السلام او شئ عن اخبار الغيب او الاسلام فعليك اثبات صحة النقل بتقديم سلسلة الاسانيد و عرض الكلام علي اصول المسلمين العقدية والفقهية و استخدم علوم الحديث في بحثها اما لقبولها او دحضها, هولاء المستشرقون يستخدمون الاساليب الادبية و تحليل النصوص غيرها التي استخدموها في دراسة الاناجيل ثم يجمعونها مع شذرات من مخطوطات مشكوك فيها و يفترضون قصة او رواية ثم ينسجون احداث خيالية و بناء حبكة قصصية و تغليفها بلغة البحث العلمي للتلبيس علي عقول الناس, و من اراد فهم نصوص الاسلام فعليه دراسة و استخدام علوم اصول الفقه و الدين و من اراد دراسة صحة مصادر الاسلام فعليه دراسة علوم الحديث, وغير ذلك من الاساليب فهي علوم زائفة لا طائل منها
@@ME-yp7fn كل ادعاء يكون بدليل حتى في القرآن "قل هاتوا برهانكم ان كنتم صادقين". هل عندك نقد خاص للادلة الواردة في هذه الحلقة؟ هل عندك علم بالحجج الواردة نفسها ومدى قوتها او ضعفها؟ الكلام العام سهل على كل شخص لكن مناقشة الادلة بانصاف هو الطريق الوحيد للحق باجماع كل البشر. فاين اعتراضاتك المعتبرة على الادلة الواردة هنا؟ وليس تعنت مني لو فعلا عندك اعتراض معتبر بأدلة سأسمعه. بحث الباحث في الحلقة عن ذو القرنين موجود مجانا على academia بالمناسبة
@@ME-yp7fn ليكون السؤال على تفصيل اكثر. ما تفسيرك للمشابهة العجيبة احيانا بين بعض القصص القرآني وادبيات سريانية متأخرة بالذات، يعني سيكون قولا ضعيفا لو قلت انها بقايا نبوة فسيكون التشابه مع القديم لا الادب الاحدث المختلق غالبا؟ هل صدفة؟ وان كان كذلك وهو مستبعد هل يخلق الله العالم بقرائن تجعل الناظر للادلة والقرائن يكذب كتابه؟ هل يصح ان تعتقد في الله انه يتعمد اضلال الناس (ليس على معنى تقدير القدر بل على ما ذكرت كخلق العالم بآيات (قرائن وادلة) تكذب كتاب تدعي انه من عنده؟ ام تقول ان القرآن ليس وحيا الهيا؟ مجددا لا تعنت اريد ان اعلم وجهة نظرك بصدق
Interesting conversation. As a writer, I often have issues with the way one discusses style. To be sure consistency and similarity are two features one goes to by default, but when I see some specific examples pointed out as showing inconsistency I cannot but react. One could use the same reasoning to question the style let's say many English poems. The default position that certain forms of variation necessarily mean something negative is, from the poetic perspective, dubious at best. To use an analogy from the natural world, it'd be like saying that a certain 'anomaly' must involve another origin than an evolutionary process. Again, I'm speaking from a creative writer's point of view. To use another analogy, let's say we look at one of Stephen Wolfram's cellular automata images. Weird inconsistencies in the patterns could lead one to argue the images were produced by different sets of rules, while we know it was always one single and often incredibly simple rule that produced incredible variation and richness. I tried addressing this a bit in my article "If suras were pulsating galaxies: a macro reading of the Quran."
The Quran assumes its audience has knowledge of Christian sources, thus much is just alluded, and it mostly mentions certain points where it presents a different opinion
I know that Alexander was already associated with Gog and Magog in the work of Flavius Joseph written in the first century and also in some writings of christians scholars in the 4-5th century such as Jerome of Stridon who also included some eschatological aspect in this association. But I ask myself if we can find earlier texts whichs spoke about Alexander as the one who travelled until the end of earth ? Can we find such a story in the Alexander Legende of pseudo-Callisthene written in the 3 or 5th century ? Thank very much and sorry for my bad english.
What’s the book on the Satanic verses that was referred to? Thanks for a great interview guys! Keep up the good work
I think they may be referring to 'Before Orthodoxy: The Satanic Verses in Early Islam' by Shahab Ahmed
@@haelotny6523 I’ve seen that book. But it didn’t sound like they were saying that. Do you think they were? No one seems to talk about that book
It’s at 1:12:21
@@seanrodrigues12 He clearly says bh Shehab Ahmad.
@Tesei When you look to 48:29 Muhammad, as a living person- is mentioned in a verse that talks about the Torah and the Injil. This goes against your thesis that Christian elements entered the Koran posthumously.
"Robust engagement with Christianity" - fair enough. However, the most crucial aspect of the Qur'an we tend to ignore-or perhaps forget to attend to-is the “absence” of the New Testament Christ in the Qur’an. That does indicate at least one thing, if nothing else, that the Qur’anic author was living at the periphery of the Christian communities rather than amidst learned and practicing Christians. The elements of Christianity found in the Qur’an, especially the Christian reading of the biblical stories, can also be interpreted from a sociological-historical angle as such tales and testaments of Christian lands that were reworked in the desert language in a process extending over centuries. A careful eye can indeed spot massive influence of Christianity on the Qur’anic text as well as context, but there is little that confirms a direct engagement with Christians. This can be elucidated, for instance, by turning to the fact that the Qur’an does not mention Paul, Peter, Judas, Joseph, or any other major figure of early Christianity-hero or villain-with the exception of Mary and John the Baptist. Similarly, the Qur’anic picture of Christianity lacks resurrection although it does have a virgin birth, which itself bears no obvious meaning if the sonship is taken out of equation. The entity of the church, moreover, does not find itself spoken of in the Qur’an. And above all, the New Testament itself remains a mystery to the narrator of the Qur’an, which is not recognized as a set of Scriptures but only a vague book, Injil, that becomes good news. And the second part of the problem we are faced with is: why create a historical context that exclusively centers on paganism? Was there a need to do so? The Qur’an teems with the echo of Arabian lore in its text (for instance, jinn, description of God with the analogy of olive tree and lamp, the oath formulae, poet and soothsayer, magic, and so on and so forth), which ascertains a desert mind versed in the pagan tradition at work in the background. Since the Qur’an is not a singularity of thought-process, but a multiplicity of ideas and religio-historical materials, it is self-evident that the historical context for the emergence of Islam was a mixed cultural and religious milieu, but one that had a predominantly pagan outlook. This is just another perspective, which may be as wrong as any other views rejected by the academia.
@Sahib the reference was not to olive or fig, but to the description of God using the analogy of an olive tree and a lamp.
That is if you define Christianity as its modern day Orthodoxy.
Yea but Quran mentions trinity and crucifixion and refutes both
And the Prophet was predominantly surrounded by pagan culture and rituals, who were violent and barbaric. His environment, both socially and physically, were not at all conducive to producing his personality or Quran
@@IslamOriginal14 Yes, the Qur’an does indeed do that. It is just the other side of the Christian segment that is ignored or skipped.
You should also explorer and cover the Farahi Discourse.
Islam reached east and west in about 100 years. Muslims ran into Christian’s and when they did they had the accurate account of Christ with them to relate. It’s important and vital that Allah mentioned Son of Mary to Muslims wether Christian’s lived in Arabia or not.
Wait a second bro: surah 112 I think speaks of God not begotten or begetting. Which other religion thought god was begotten at the time and this is a mecan surah? Is this not referring to Christians?
They say lat manat and uzza idols were daughters of allah maybe its that…
@@Zazamarklepossibly, the pagans did attribute daughters to God.
When you find evidence in history what really happened in holly books , the mystery veil is lifted and leftover is not so miraculous after all.
In listening to this, and how he says it's a leap of faith to believe it's from one source or context, doesn't that come from the perspective that it was from Muhammad's mind? I mean, Quran's miraculous nature is the narrative that it's the word of God. And therefore it's further proven it's not from a man, but divine?
How did they prove its word of god? Its actually word of Gabriel.there is nothing miraculous about the text actually according to arab speakers.
Don't say Inconsistent with other parts of Quran say different than other parts bescue the target audience and circumstances are different.
The most important concern (positively)for me was to ask just one question - Like Nietzche said all the great religions conceals nihilism at the core, when the community of believers gets unveiled by these highly important studies that reveals and deconstructs the origins of certain contents of their Scripture, How does such a 'pokingly' necessary studies affects or impacts the faith of ordinary or academic believer/s ? When the initial claims and status of the Scripture as 'Divinely inspired' starts to crumble, change and shift under the pressure of heavy, undeniable evidences, the maintenance of faith becomes very difficult. I fear a creeping nihilism. I heard that Musa Cerantonio pulled himself out of this faith pedal after realising the same thing as discussed here - The origin and influence of Alexander the Great legend in the Quran.
What are you getting at?
One big reason why I'm a christian instead of a muslim. The Quran just doesn't hold up to what islam claims it to be quite frankly. The Bible does stand up to what Christianity holds it to be, which is not the very words from God himself but sacred writings given to us by God through flawed humans. Christianity always recognized the human aspect in the Bible and that's why it can withstand the scrutiny. The Quran, not so much.
@@adrummingdog2782 what % of the bible is false according to you?
@@BasedYeeter42 Well..It is a disturbing thought that a Scripture -which millions of believers, past & present, regard as 'Divinely inspired -word for word' or at least paraded as such evidently had infact very different origins & make-up, authored/collected as a communal project, involving many parties or contributors, before the project got somewhat solidifies, then carries forward by the posterity of the believers, with different descriptions and explanations, changing with times, but fixed for the most part, now comes to face with majour deconstructing forces. Description which was given to them at birth by their faithful families and communities or at the time of their acceptance of faith gets deconstructed here at this point. So, What I'm trying to feel or understand is the mental state or a spiritual dilemma of the faithful who undergoes some painful realizations and transitions that requires great patience and strength to bear, may be helpful to come out their boxes to much better higher purposes and ideals.
@@satchitannands36 congrats! You just discovered revisionist scholarship on Islam.
"In Syriac literature in particular, there are other works originally written in Syriac that are often attached to the Alexander Romance manuscripts. These works include the Syriac Legend of Alexander, the composition of which is commonly attributed to north Mesopotamia around 629-630 AD, shortly after Heraclius defeated the Persians.[7] However, some have argued that the Syriac recension was originally produced in an earlier form in the early 6th century and was updated in the early 7th century in light of then-contemporary apocalyptic themes.[9] Another position taken up by some scholars is that the text was composed around the Byzantine-Sassanid events surrounding the year 614.[10] The Syriac Legend contains additional motifs not found in the earliest Greek Romance, including the episode where Alexander builds a wall against Gog and Magog.[6] There is also a poem wrongly attributed to Jacob of Serugh based on the Syriac Legend but written slightly later. Finally, there is a shorter version of the Legend and an original brief biography of Alexander.[7]" -wikipedia 1. I find it interesting Tessei is critical of carbon dating 2. We find quran influencing literature like Rabi PirkeDeliezer as well
The Qur'an story is only partly coherent and is textually and EXPLICITLY derivative. It's a dhikr. It is supposed to be proving the authenticity of Muhammad's prophethood by miraculously revealing something already known to the Jews. If the Qur'an were the original, then it would be lying.
@@toomanymarys7355 The Quran is speaking to an Arabian audience, the descendants of Abraham the son of Hud the Aadite. The Quran isn't addressing the Hellenized Jews and Christians of the fertile crescent, most of whom are indo-European peasantry.
Amazing 🤩 statement brother that there is no evidence of Christian presence in mecca/Medinah at the time of Prophet wow 😳 😲
That's like saying Hitler was Dajjal bescue of how western historians villainized him even though in reality he was a nice German nationalist guy.
The Quran never claimed that it was an original story from itself, but an answer to question from the Jews, with a Quranic perspective.
The Jewish Bible states that the two horned one is Cyrus. Since the Jews are the ones who asked Muhammad the question about such a king in order to test his truthfulness, they must have known the answer.
There are no Cyrus elements to the Quranic narrative. The building of the wall against Gog and Magog; the two horns; the setting of the sun in mud. These are all elements of the Syriac tradition of Alexander.
@@byblispersephone2.094 it’s completely speculation how about the ancient tradition of this narrative have been ascribed to Alexander instead coming to conclusions
@@MohamedMohamed-ws7mqThe take is identical to the Syriac Christian version which was alive and well at the time, with him finding the sun setting in a muddy spring and building a wall to keep Gog and Magog inside until the day of judgement where they will break it and swarm from every hill.
That shows how muslims and jews and christians interact on the contrary no other religion exists there except idols
The for sure revelation sequences are the first 6. Beyond that you cannot divide meccan Surahs into early middle and late that confidently. There is a lot of unknown speculation about their exact revelatory sequence.
Despite trying to be very pedantic and diligent I think Tese is jumping ahead of what evidence tell us. Firstly, he is assuming the entire Arab movement in 610-650 was related to Muhammad for which is no outside evidence exists. Secondly, he is assuming that the oldest-looking part of Quran is from Muhammad, while he is allowing later additions by other people, but how about an addition by others in a later time from an older text eg a text from another prophet from 5th century. So why oldest looking parts cannot be later addition to the text? Thirdly he is skeptical of presence of Christians in the Hijaz but he is not skeptical of existence of Mecca while no outside evidence till 690s.
Subtle Orientalist . You can clearly see ignorance in these scholars.
What proof do we have that the Quranic account didn't influence the Alexander romance instead of the other way around?
If I remember correctly, the Quranic story contains Aramaic words.
@@koopag8 Martin Van Putten just came out on myth vision talking about the early origin of Aramaic loan words into Arabic. If I am not mistaken, the Alexander romance is in Syriac and he points out that Aramaic loan words are not coming through Syriac (at least not directly) due to its conservative sound system Couldn't an Aramaic speaker have used these words because the Arabic reminded him and not the other way around? Have scholars dated the Alexander romance conclusively?
Because Alexander legends far predate the Quran, with elements in the story going back to the first century. The Quran even describes it as people asking Mohammad about Dhul Qarnayn and so he gives an answer, this was a legend obviously circulating before the time of Mohammad. The Quranic version matches on to the Christian Syriac version almost exactly, just with less detail.
@@adrummingdog2782 Sure Alexander legends predate the Quran but has the specific Syriac Alexander romance that is the closest been dated to before the Quran? Isn't it possible that the Syriac Alexander romance is influenced by the Quran? How was it dated?
@@stevenv6463 From the research I've seen, scholars usually date the Syriac romance to be around the same time of the quran, early 600s. With that and the narrative of Mohammad being asked about Dhul qarnayn, and with the Quran borrowing aramaic words, I think its much more likely that the Syriac version influenced the quran rather than the other way around. The Syriac alexander romance was in large part a response by the Christian east to the Byzantine-Sasanian war. I believe there's still being work done on the dating though. Quranic textual criticism is a very young field because the quran just isn't as important for the west as the bible of course, and the islamic world resists secular scholarship of this kind heavily
They ask thee concerning Dhu al Qarnayn. Say, " I will rehearse to you something of his story. " Verily We* established his power on earth, and We gave him the ways and the means to all ends. One ( such) way he followed, until when he reached the setting of the sun, he found it set in a spring of murky water: near it he found a people: We said:" O Dhu al Qarnayn! ( thou hast authority,) either to punish them, or to treat them with kindness." He said: " Whoever doth wrong, him shall we punish; then shall he be sent back to his Lord*; and He will punish him with a punishment unheard- of ( before). But whoever believes, and works righteousness,- he shall have a goodly reward, and easy will be his task as we order it by our command." Holy Quran, chapter 18; Al Kahf ( The Cave) verse 83 - 88. * Allah Subhana Wata'ala; Most Gracious, Most Merciful.
So, where is Alexander in the Qu'an Ajim?
@@strongwater7814 Dhul Qarnayn is Alexander. There is absolutely no doubt about this. The story you find in the koran is stolen from Pseudo-Calisthenes' Alexander Myth/Romance, which existed at least a century before Mo was born.
@@JohnGeometresMaximos Have you read that "Pseudo-Calisthenes' Alexander Myth/Romance"? Or heard it from your elders? If you have read it may I request a reference to its source Brother? Perhaps that story was later added to the text of the Qur'an - a corruption. It is possible. Help me with the reference please if you can.
@@strongwater7814 Search for Corinne Jouanno's work on Alexander.
@@JohnGeometresMaximos I shall. However, the second part of your answer: "is stolen from Pseudo-Calisthenes' Alexander Myth/Romance, which existed at least a century before Mo was born" is problematic. Because Mo didnt write the Qur'an, Al did. Although I suspect that there were corruption in the text and the story of Julkarnain could be one of those corruptions. I am researching the preservation of Quran.
The Quran is a living book, the Speech of a living God, relevant for all time. We should not be looking at it from the perspective of what it meant to our predecessors. Study it based on how it fits to the present.
How is a Quranic discourse on how to speak to Muhammad’s wives and on table manners in the home of Muhammad a living text suitable for all time?
So we should expect to find the sun setting in a muddy spring somewhere today? And Gog and Magog hiding behind a wall somewhere with armies waiting to escape from every hill?!
Those verses directed at the Prophet & his followers, which are not relevant can logically be ignored.
Yes at some point it will, God knows best, when they released the horn will be blown. Meaning the end, it will be judgement day
Professor Juan Cole has an interesting take on this. That Dhul Qarnayn is an allegory for Herculis the Byzantine king that defeated the Persians and was propagandized contemporary as a new Alexander. He connects it to Surah Ar Rum and believes some Quranic verses about Pharaoh are allegory’s to Kusrow II. I think it holds water and solves the mystery while resolving any potential theological problems with Alexander the two horns.
Why is it not CLEAR who it is? The Quran claims clarity. Anything people try to shoehorn is bad apologetics...
@@sh0k0nes It may not be clear to you but it was likely clear at the time of the Proohet. This point is made by nearly all academics - for example Marjin Van Putten in a Reddit AMA said using the epithet Dhul-Qarnayn is virtually the same as saying Iskandar. And to say this apologetics is to say you’re ignorant of apologetics and the secular historical critical method. Take your polemics elsewhere pls.
@@bobbycalifornia7077 'likely' clear was it? Show me where it's referenced. Was the Quran only for that, or all time..? I'm just going on the claims of the book and its adherents. That's not polemics. People can justify any BS if u allow them to.
@@sh0k0nes The link between Heraclitus and DQ is made using evidence and done by top scholars in the field. You are welcome to do the research yourself and present your findings. But anger at what the evidence highlights is not an adequate response. Neither is your straw man temporal argument.The Quran is self evidently referring to topics occurring at the time of the Prophet - including the war between Byzantium and Persia. Tommaso Tesei will inform you that the Syriac Legend was intended as Byzantine political commentary. Juan Cole will elaborate on pro-Byzantine commentary in the Quran - including this story of Alexander and why it makes sense for Heraclius. Doufikar-Aerts will further elaborate on why DQ would have been understood as Heraclius. Charles Antony Stewart will explain the Heraclius-Alexander typology of the 7th century in-light of the bust of Heraclius with the horns of Alexander (Qarnayn) found in Cyprus dating to the time of the Prophet. I invite you to do your homework and leave the "BS" polemics aside.
Dr. Tesei is definitely more skillful in the regurgitation of old highly hypothetical revisionist ideas than most of his senior peers. But again he had the advantage of learning from their mistakes. When in need, you can always fall on doubting the accuracy of radio carbon dating results or even more conveniently selectively use the very sources which you have just been dissing from the start. “You can either take them or leave them…”, as late Patricia Crone said something along those lines. I mean you shouldn’t be taking only what you need for your argument when you got nothing else…. However, I really want to command Dr. Tesei for daring to mention Dr. Juan Cole who seems to be blacklisted by his blogger/KZhead academic peers. Dr. Juan Cole’s work just proves that once you start hypothesizing about a period, about which you lack data, you can just as well or even more successfully go into 180 degreed different direction from all other revisionists. One may consider Dr. Cole’s hypothesis wishful thinking but Dr. Cole’s methodology is thorough and consistent, backed up with strong evidence from sound sources, and he is consistent with his sources, premises and assumptions (which cannot be said for some of his more famous revisionist peers in academia). And I am not just talking about his book about Muhammed (which is really about Quran) but also for example his articles on comparing hudud verses from the Quran to the Justinian’s Novels. It so obvious that Dr. Cole is boycotted by his academic peers almost all except the ones with Muslim cultural background. At least Dr. Cole’s revisionism deserves to be challenged and not ignored. Let’s all be adults in islamic studies once again! I truly admire Dr. Raynolds for his willingness to hear all sides. I do not believe he is a type of academic who boycotts or blacklists his peers. If we can hear one extreme of revisionist argument, then the other opposing extreme of the revisionist argument deserves a chance to be heard as well. I hope that Dr. Raynolds will interview Dr. Juan Cole soon. It would be great if Dr. Raynolds were the first KZhead/academic to break this odd boycott of Juan Cole by non-Muslim background academics.
@ Dear Fadil You have summed up the problem of Islamic studies well. Also, I would like Prof. G. S Reynolds to invite Prof. Jonathan Brockoop Thanks
What exactly is your argument? You do not provide any rebuttal, just writing word salad here. Be specific in where you actually disagree with Tesei, instead of labeling him a "revisionist" (which is completely OK actually).
First Shuaib - Chill bro!!!! He is the one that does not present any proof. I am not the one who is proposing a new hypothesis. You need to calm down and consider what evidence is he presenting rather than question me. Does he have proof that there are two authors in Quran, no because a single author can change his writing style, different audience, so he presents no new evidence but. Authors do change and shift their styles and genre of writing throughout their careers all the time. He questions the age of the Quran but does not offer proof but rather doubts the carbon14 dating, If he was a scientist and doubted the carbon 14 dating and presented evidence. He is questioning something that is not his area of expertise. He is a historian not a nuclear scientist and therefore not a an authority that can question the technology.
Second Shuaib - i hope you’ ve calmed down by now - do you not see the inconsistency in his argument. He uses the arguments from the Muslim tradition when it suits him like there are no christians in the Hijaz according to the Muslim tradition, but he beforehand dismissed the traditional account as unreliable. If you already called the source unreliable how you come you get to pick and chose from the source what suits you. Nothing wrong with being a revisionist just don’t pick from the Muslim accounts what suits you and dismiss other stuff that does not suit you as late additions. i respect Crone becaus She is the first one that said you can believe islamic sources or not believe it, but you can’t use it. But he is using it here to justify his position. When you are ont consistent with your sources and argumentation, there is no logic, an you come across more as politically biased polemicist rather than an objective academic. We don’t know, they might find evidence of Christian presence in Hijaz in future, the absence of evidence cannot be used as the evidence itself. That is like saying one has no proof for his innocence so he must be automatically guilty. The burden of proof beyond the reasonable doubt is on the persecution (the revisionist) not the defendant (muslim tradition). I am just saying he presents no solid evidence just reformulates old orientalist (who had a political agenda and a colonialist bias) ideas without any strong (beyond reasonable doubt) evidence and proof. That is what you call critical thinking - and unfortunately in the Islamic world they don’t train kids in schools for that very well.
Dhu-l-Qarnayn is apparently the Prophet.
"in my article I may have overstated..." This will be your excuse for fabricating fake connect-the-dots theories on Day of Judgement? Fear Allah brother and don't take lightly such a critical subject matter.
Ring structure of Quran is also evidence of it's preservation. Ref: Raymond Farrin
Bible alao have ring structure.
@@ekadria-bo4962 how?
@@A.--. not many, but exist, ring structure = chiasm.
@@ekadria-bo4962 example?
@@ekadria-bo4962 no it doesn't.
Neither Quran nor tradition denies that Meccan polytheists believed in Allah. The inscriptions too show that they worshipped Allah but still called themselves Abd Shams. You might want to call them henotheists or sthelse but the concept is the same, no?
Wait you think zulkarnain was Alexander (sijandar)? Have you compared their moral characters bro?
É strano che uno sceglie una intera carriera per pochi versi marginali su una figura historica nel Corano in una lingua straniera, c'è sicuramente di piu ma ha scelto di non espandere!
è molto strano che Lei dica questo dal momento che nell'intervista discuto solo marginalmente i suddetti versetti. Di contro, focalizzo l'attenzione su questioni di più ampia portata inerenti al testo coranico. Non sarebbe forse il caso che prima di scrivere affermazioni incorrette Lei si prenda la pena di guardare l'intervista per intero? Sembrerebbe un prerequisito indispensabile prima di emettere giudizi infondati. Se l'inglese costituisce una barriera linguistica per Lei, su KZhead ci sono anche interviste che ho rilasciato in italiano, in cui discuto questioni generali e non specifiche relative alle origini del testo coranico. La invito a guardare le interviste per intero ed in general a riflettere prima di scrivere. Saluti.
Although Muslims elude Alexander the great to Cyrus the great , they are both pagans. Cyrus is a follower of the Zoroastrian religion, they worshiped Ahura Mazda as their God, not Allah. 😁
Zoroastrianism isn't Pagan. Cyrus is a Pagan however.
These are weak reports and the Muslim scholarly consensus is that neither Alexander nor Cyrus is Thul Qarnayn.
Zoraastrianisim not pagan ahura mazda is allah in their texts kuran counts then ahlikitab as well read ur history
The verses regarding Jesus (to Christians) were recited to Christian king in Abasynia (Africa) during the first Hijrah from Mecca when the persecution started. What kind of scholars are you guys to miss this crucial point. Just read Tafseer of Christian king who later became Muslim.
i am an ethiopian which was abyssinia in the old times....and there is a debate about al nejashi(the king at the time) whether he converted or not....but all the evidences from here suggest other wise....because if he was a muslim why didn't he convert the nation or leave a nation if not possible to convert which was a christian state axumite kindom.....there is even a mosque dedicated to him to be honest but most scholars wont accept it to be true.......he just said he saw similarities between us and u which he then used as a pretext to proved protection for muslims from the pagans
@@abebebesobela4591 im not sure either. In islam there is freedom of religion so he would not have forced his subjects to convert. Some people converted secretly and did not reveal their conversion (eg ibn Abbas the cousin of prophet kept his conversion secret for many years). You will know better than me about Nijashi but i will resesrch him if there are any authentic sources. Muslim leaders dont leave statues or relics in general beavue they dont want people to pedestilize them. Thats why we still dont have confirmed burial site of Prophet Joseph, Moses etc just hypothetical locations that peope later made monuments for. In general, Prophets and authentic muslim rulers were very "anti-archeology." The idol or king worshipers leave lots of archeological evidences but not true muslims. So nagashi may not have left many authentic evidences? God knows Best.
@@A.--. maybe ur right only God knows.....to be honest i like the narrative as whole i wouldn't mind him converting either because it rly shines a positive light on the fairness and goodness my countries people at the time
Even the Tang emperor of China said that Islam’s values were similar to China’s (confician) values and allowed them to build a mosque in the capital Chang’an (it still stands there), but it doesn’t mean the Chinese emperor converted to Silam or anything like that. The Germans even successfully spread rumours that their Kaiser had converted to Islam to convince Muslims to fight for Germany in the First World War.
@@samjones3546 Islam wants best for everyone ie get into Paradise. Allah knows everyone's intentions best and will deal with His servents Justly. We should focus on our own Exam. Those students (people of past) have already graduated.
Quran never claim that Dhulqarnain was Alexander the Great. It is just opinion of some scholars who were influenced by the Alexander Romance written around 380CE. The more current thinking is that Dhulqarnain was Cyrus the Great who preceded Alexander by about 150 years. In fact, Alexander held Cyrus in very high esteem as with so many other including the Jews who called him Messiah, the only gentile given this honour. After all he freed the Jews from slavery in Babylon and funded the rebuilding of the second temple In Jerusalem and his coming was even predicted in the book of Isaiah almost 200 years before he was even born. If you follow his travels from Persia after forming the Achaemenid dynasties by merging Pars and Media, he went to conquer the empire of Lydia on the shores of the Black Sea - remember the dark murky waters. Then after the liberation of Babylon he went to the eastern desert of Gedrosia just like the narrative of the Quran. The term Dhulqarnain is in fact found in the the Arabic version of the Bible in the book of Daniel 8:20 which in Arabic reads 20 اما الكبش الذي رأيته ذا القرنين فهو ملوك مادي وفارس. The ram which you saw, having the two horns-they are the kings of Media and Persia. This by the way is the only place in the Arabic Bible / Old Testament where the term Dhulqarnain (ذا القرنين ) is mentioned. The meaning of Dhulqarnain in Arabic is two horns. Who is it referring to in the book of Daniel. Certainly not Alexander. It must have been Cyrus the Great. That’s why when the Jews of Madinah asked the Prophet PBUH about Dhulqarnain, Allah, The God revealed this story. In fact, to those Arabic speaking Jews of Madinah when the term Dhulqarnain was revealed by the Quran to the prophet Muhammad PBUH they knew Allah had answered them. By the way for all of you who don’t know, in the Arab version of the Bible and Torah, the term used for God is Allah, just in case you want to claim something else. So please don’t say it is the moon god or something.
the word Qarnain could also mean two centuries. Qarn in the Quran means a long time, maybe 1000 years.
How much did they pay you
There’s a very simple answer to why there is christian elements mentioned in the Quran. It’s because the speaker is God Himself, the same God of Christians and Jews and everyone…. there’s only one God so there’s only one religion, in different forms. The Quran must be applied to your form of religion to bring it back to what God instructed in the first place. Mankind distorts things
true . But the final truth is sikhism . Guru granth sahib is the final revelation of mankind.
@@Lalalala22537what does it say ?
This is my idea....you mean your connect-the-dots fake theory.
Dhul-Qarnain is not Alexander. I think he is Cyrus the Great.
Read Alexander romance
@@DusTman761 well the earliest manuscript of the alexander romance is from the 1700s there are plenty of other reasons why not to assume the alexander romance influenced Quran, like how even the posutlated date is later then the verses mentioning dhul-qurnayn, theres simply no solid evidence as of right now. according to the tafsir of the verses it was the Jews who had told the Quraysh to ask about Dhul-Qurnayn, the Jews already knew who Dhul-Qurnayn was it's in the Hebrew Bible HaQurnayn, the two-horned (referring to cyrus the great), he was also a monotheist and celebrated by the Jews.
@@stevves4647 DhulQarnain is a fiction person based on Alexander Legend
@@DusTman761 I'm not sure where you go that from, DhulQurnain is a historical character from the Hebrew Bible (the two-horned ram) in Hebrew haQ'ränayim. It was a prophecy describing Darius III
The point is that both were borrowed and combined to create a new narrative to include in the Quran that suited the author and/or the audience.
You sound like Fox news host by comparing Bible to Quran.....hello genius have you heard of Bart Ehrman? Reliable vs Unreliable sources cannot be compared.
why are you posting on a historical critical channel if you’re set in one worldview?
@@pandawandas im open to all EVIDENCES which this channel gives but oppose all narrative selling based on opinions.
The biggest mistake prof. Tammaso is making is that he believes Islam began in Hijaz region..
How is that a mistake?
@@Honestcritic79 neither Mecca in pre-islamic times nor Mohamed of Islamic traditions existed.. Islam began in the fertile crescent (Syria-iraq) region. It began as an anti-trinitarian Arab Christian sect promoted by the Arab empire.
@@roshlew6994 But that doesn’t contradict the Islamic narrative. The Islamic narrative is that the Christian Jews who were anti-trinitarians are the ones who became Muslim and their believes were reaffirmed by God who in a essence confirmed their intuitions and beliefs.
@@roshlew6994 I confess that maybe the term Islam didn’t emerge until later but we do have manuscripts that refer to these people as believers and Islam but not in the same way now, but one could argue of course because the idea of a separate religion was not widespread even though it theologically was. It’s kind of like America. When we became independent, we didn’t all of a sudden call ourselves American. We still referred to ourselves as federalists or to the state (previously colony) that we lived in. The idea of Americans came later on but we still throughout the entire time we’re American. Same with Islam. Yes Islam taking form happened later but in the beginning we still held the same values and ideas.
@@Honestcritic79 I don't know which manuscripts are you referring to ... We have solid historical evidence for the early Umayyad rulers being Christian.. it is only during the reign of Abd al-malik in end-7th century that we see Islam starting to emerge as a separate Arab religion.. but the Islam that we know today takes several centuries to develop and matured during Abbasid period with the introduction of the standard islamic narrative by creation of sirats, hadiths, tafasirs and thareeks..
You need to make these videos shorter (20min max) by letting guest speak without all the non-sense options and feelings BS. Just do a rapid fire Q&A and have guest give 1 statement followed by evidence, 2nd statement followed by evidence and so on. I'm sick of this American way of prolonging a simple explanation to sound supra-intelligent or leaving clif hangers. Just give statement + evidence etc and we will accept and verify each. Also give references like Engineer Muhammad Ali Mirza does. A-holes scholars these days are not giving references but rather opinions. Otherwise you guys are doing great work.
I can assure you, academics all over the globe being loquacious is not confined to america
@D brother (or sister) the topics being discussed are too sensitive to have our frustrations watered down or our feelings mellowed out when we see clear deviation of facts and propaganda. We believe if truth shall prevail it will lead us down the path of salvation but if it is to be distorted then many innocent and superficial thinkers will get led straight to the gates of Hell and we cannot let innocent humans be abused in that way.
Then don’t watch it. Scholars aren’t worried about the “gates of hell”; scholars are here to ask amd explore.
@@samjones3546 we wont watch if they dont make (propaganda videos). If disinformation is being spread you know it is the right thing to do to expose it for the sake of innocent masses. The consequences in After-Life (and here) are too great for innocent people to get hurt.
You read Sean Anthonys work right....he says the debate is closed on whether today's Quran was the Quran during life of Prophet. Spreading fitna again lies?
Didn't this guy interview Sean few month back ? At this point His show seems like the myth vision.
@@andanandan6061 LOL 😂 yep. And yes he did interview Sean. The truth is, the Quran is very deep and we must focus on every story, verse and word. Just yesterday i was thinking of the people who build a Musjid over the People of the Cave and asked myself if they were good folks or deviants beacuse building musjids over graves is not recommended by Prophet.
I think your Guest is applying Bible textual criticism to Quran. Very unusual ignorance about Arabic and Devine. No one who does not believe in the Quran to study Quran and he or she does not know the opening letter and the book referred to in Quran. Very disappointing and disrespectful to Muslims.
And simply put, Quran challenges its reader to prove its not from God. It says if you doubt it was revealed to Muhammad, then produce a chapter like it with all the help you can get. And it further declares you'll never be able to. And further, Quran says it will provide tafsir for the Quran. So I think this man is just intent on disproving Quran.
@Hu Chay What do you mean 'disproving' the Qur'an? Historians and scholars don't start with supernatural presumptions. The Qur'an is absolutely stupid in its "challenge". One cannot prove a negative. Prove to me the tooth fairy does not exist. Prove to me the devil does not exist. Prove to me that a book is not from God. These are utterly moronic.
I don’t think you understand how academic scholarship works.
@@byblispersephone2.094 Here is how those orientalists work in nutshell, they frame their claims using words like storytelling, narrative, hypothesis, and they don't study Islam as Muslims do. The golden rule in Islamic thinking is: "If you are claiming something you should provide a definite proof, and if your claiming is based on someone else, shows us the isnad (the chain of transmitters) upon which they will be vetted and theirs says subjected to verification and authentication. Their entire scholarships are based on confirmation bias fallacy and falsehoods. If they are really seeking the truth, they will follow the evidence not assume a hypothesis and then looking for fake evidence to confirm it. Quran is not as their tampered bible or fake medieval history. Allah says in the Quran: "6. O you who believe! If a troublemaker brings you any news, investigate, lest you harm people out of ignorance, and you become regretful for what you have done." [Quran 49-6] The prophet Muhammad (PBUH) said: Abu Hurayrah (may Allah be pleased with him) reported: The Prophet (may Allah’s peace and blessings be upon him) said: "Whoever tells lies about me intentionally should take his seat in Hellfire." Sahih/Authentic. - [Al-Bukhari and Muslim]
There are several different versions of the Quran in existence today (eg. Hafs, warsh etc.). So if I look at the hafs quran I can just take the corresponding verse from the warsh quran and I’ve proven I’ve given a verse as good or better than the hafs quran. So the Quran fails its own challenge.
@@samjones3546All those recitations mode came from Prophet Muhammad. They were His. The alegation from non-muslim at that time was Muhammad lied and got it from someone else or someone helped him so that was the challenge Quran brough to these unbeliever. Make something similar to it. They couldn't even make one similar verse against just one mode of recitation so how you call that a victory?