John Smoltz explains why MLB's top pitchers are getting hurt with elbow injuries
John Smoltz and Ben Verlander dive into why there has been a rash of elbow injuries to MLB's top arms such as Atlanta Braves' Spencer Strider, Cleveland Guardians' Shane Bieber & more.
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John Smoltz explains why MLB's top pitchers are getting hurt with elbow injuries
• John Smoltz explains w...
Do you believe the pitch clock is the reason for increased injuries?
No. It's probably exacerbating the injuries though.
No. I think teams are being more cautious with there pitchers I'm sure the team Dr's don't want to be wrong and rush million dollar pitchers back to soon I believe pitchers want to pitch tho
@@kellytaylor7699 your response makes no sense . Its like you don’t understand baseball.
Pitch clock isn't the main reason, but I think it's clearly affecting the pitcher and it would definitly be the final push for the elbow injury. So many "ace pitchers" getting hurt at the same time from 2023. If there were no pitch clock, these ace pitchers wouldn't have injured at the same time.
Nope
You know what is interesting though guys? Just the other day I say Chris Bassitt dismantle my Mariners with a fastball that rarely passed 93MPH. He was throwing 77MPH curveballs, 87MPH sliders, and really hitting his spots. Another guy by the name of Javier Assad totally looked unhittable with a fastball that rarely topped 94MPH. He was throwing 84 MPH changeups and really hitting his spots. These guys need to learn how to pitch again and not merely throwers.
I was going to say something to this effect before I read your comment. Yes pitchers are all throwing harder than they used to, on average. But baseball still seems like the exact same game. It plays out the same way. Hitters adjust, so what’s the point of shredding arms like this?
I'm not sure Greg Maddux would be drafted today.
94 is a lot
Both those pitchers are maxing out. Not every person has the same top speed of 98. take my 72mph fastball for example...
They should watch Trevor Bauer's videos. He is sharing everything about his pitch grip and training. He hits 99 without a death grip on the ball that blows his arm out. The guys complaining about grip never learned how to pitch right.
John's description of training for a marathon in his era is spot on, and a great way to describe it. MLB has to get back to rewarding playing.
The union will never allow anything except 100% guaranteed contracts, so other than performance incentives there is no real way for teams to incentivize playing, and no serious agent is going allow their clients to accept a contract based primarily on incentives if pitchers still get hurt at the rate they are currently.
Players association needs to address this. Owners don't care and will just shuffle to next pitcher
can you imagine how many players would have given up a few years of their pitching career if it meant they were able to perform at an even higher level and make more money doing so? John's comparing two eras of baseball where contracts are literally hundreds of millions of dollars apart.
@@michaelweston2285 frankly, the shorter contracts are better for fans and ownership and they have the effect of spreading cash out evenly among union members, so I really don’t see much support for any radical changes
@@barkerm9 if the owners take a hard stance on not doing 100% guarantees, then the union will have to buckle or not play. And given the amount of money players make today there's no way they would risk losing an entire season going on strike.
Exactly. When I get into this argument I always point to Verlander in his prime. He could gas it to 99+ but routinely stayed around 94-95mph. Why? Because he was pacing himself. At the end of some games he would increase his velocity, depending on the situation, but he didn’t try to go 80+ pitches at 100+mph.
Nope, he's go 80-90 pitches at 94-95, then hit 100 in the 7th and 8th innings.
And changing your speeds help keep batters off balance. When you feed a batter 2-3 pitches at 90-91 mph then unleash a 98, he’s out.
Everybody just tries to throw their arm out since they were 12 and it shows.
@@kdutch98 what do you mean nope? I wrote that he routinely stayed around 94-95 then would increase his velocity at the end of games depending on the situation. You basically rephrased what I wrote.
@@Balshem i was agreeing with you.
Hearing this from Mr. John Smoltz - who never threw a slider until he was in MLB, pitched as a STARTER and second as a CLOSER for as long as he did - means 100 times more than the same message from anyone else. By the way, as a kid growing up in South Georgia, I was 10 years old when the Braves won the WS. Everyday after school, I would pitch into a pitching net and mimic the motions of Smoltz, Glavine and Maddux. I also liked Kevin Milwood too. Then I’d go inside and watch the entire game on TBS at 7:05 having no idea they would all be in the HOF.
Smoltz is one the best to bridge the knowledge gap between old and new school thoughts and analysis. Love hearing him call games and be spot on.
It's an old conversation about spinning. I remember when I was a kid the curve was discouraged because of the stress on a young arm.
I taught myself to throw a knuckleball in little league and they threw me out of a game because the ump said I was throwing illegal curveballs, which honestly was ridiculous because it wasn’t like I had Wakefield movement on it. But yeah we were never allowed to throw curveballs until high school level. Middle school it technically wasn’t allowed but they never enforced the rule
@@dylanhawthorne4842 thats because throwing a curve can cause an arm injury that damages the growth plate in your elbow. You don't want that to happen, but especially not before your body has stopped growing
@@Calibrownsfan happened to me, started throwing a nasty Nolan Ryan curve ball when I was 11 and threw my arm out 4 games into my senior year of high school. Grew up playing short stop had to play second cause I couldn't throw from short lol.
Messed up my elbow, throwing curve balls as a kid
I remember him talking about playing more sports at his HOF speech. He is one to know. He lived it. Love this guy.
Taking 45 seconds between pitches is a fairly recent phenomenon. The old pitching mantra was “work quickly, throw strikes.” The difference is they paced themselves to last 7-9 innings and only used max effort at critical junctures. A 100-pitch start was much different then than today.
This has been my thinking from the get go. Psychologically, if pitchers know they realistically only have 5-6 innings, they're going to go maximum effort the whole time. Knowing you might have to go 7-8 innings would naturally lead you to pace yourself a bit.
yea and the game is completely different, smaller strike zones, better prepared hitters, no more shift. pitchers need to be on their A game every pitch, very, very difficult to be a command pitcher nowadays, u cant blame pitchers for chasing what it takes to succeed nowadays
@@lavs8696 it def seems like there is going to be mixed feelings about that. I get that it’s harder to be a pitcher now but also it makes the game better. Forcing guys to be under a certain time and honestly making the game a little bit easier for hitters makes it better for baseball fans. But I also can agree that if there was incentives to go longer that would benefit the injury crisis. But regarding how hard it is to be a pitcher, it’s hard to be a damn hitter too.
@@noahmarshall8625 i agree, i was moreso just listing the realities, not really grievances. I enjoy the faster paced games, tighter (correct) strike zones, and as a result more offense/more flamethrowers. Definitely a better game to watch. Only downside is you will lose tons of pitchers. Who knows, they may go the way of the running back in the NFL soon, apart from a few genetic freaks, the norm might be get a good 4-5 years out of them then dispose of them.
100 pitch start ?!? 125 minimum. I had games in which I threw 200 pitches. I never had a major arm injury and I threw hard with conviction. Kids today don't practice enough and don't pitch as.much in games to build upntheir arms. Pitching in games is what built up my arm strength the best with my mechanics. The compact motions and leg whip kick finishes are killing the arms of these kids. And I don't hear anyone talking about running anymore, or at least biking to build up their legs
Thanks for having John on. Smoltzy is the best.
Every Saturday!
@@randombutrelevant1606 It would not change anything.
So true, Smoltzy IS the best! Love that guy!
@@randombutrelevant1606Greg Maddux says otherwise
Side sessions regularly… but pitch movement is more important than speed.
Until teams start scouting and drafting pitchers who get outs instead of pitchers who throw hard nothing changes. Warren Spahn said hitting is timing and pitching is upsetting timing. Ray Miller who coached four twenty game winners in 1971 withe Orioles said pitching is working quickly, throwing strikes and changing speeds. Location, movement and then velocity
Jaime Moyer agrees with this.
@@ericheisler5351 So does Randy Jones, the 1976 Cy Young winner who threw sinkers in the low 80's pitch after pitch.
@@slundgr Probably the most underrated pitch. You would think it would be more beneficial to learn that than try to throw a 100 mph fastball
@@BurnNotice2023 Yes, along with the changeup.
@@slundgr Yes, I made that point in another post. But that would require actual "pitching" not "throwing"
Also a big problem is travel ball for kids. Kids have thrown thousands of innings before the turn 18.
Thousands?? 😂
@@bradleyhayman2682 you play a tourney 30-40:weekends out of the year. Total pitches per year 2000 at 9m and 10, 3000 pitches 11+. Average inning is around 15 pitches. So maybe not 2000 innings but well over a thousand. That’s an insane amount of stress on these kids but they do it to get scholarship. This is the norm for the sport now. Colleges look to the travel ball circuit.
Travel ball is the number one reason no one can change my mind on that. Kids should not be playing baseball as much as they are not only is it hard on their arms. It’s hard ontheir whole body. Plus, I thought pictures have always thrown as hard as they can throw.
Agree and i think this is the case for most kids now. The body can only take so much wear and tear.
Good point. Some teams like drafting pitchers from cooler climates as they haven't been throwing as much
Very cerebral conversation. John is spot on.
Even for college, the requirement for a right handed arm for a power 5 school is 90+. That’s insane.
Facts, when I was in college 85 was the number. I never understood that because I've faced guys who couldn't break glass and would tear me up yet another guy throwing 92 getting smoked. There is no number except stats to measure quality
@@Brhoward31 well it's pretty well explained by data, 85 with outlier movement and shape is more effective than a flat 92. For a top college throwing 90+ alone would not be enough today.
@my2l oh for sure but in 06, that data wasn't available like that.
Whats funny about this is I said this on numerous articles on Facebook and got ridiculed for it because I'm not an expert. I pitched 20 games or more a year from age 18 through age 46. While I wasn't a pro, the wear and tear of throwing 150 innings a year with a velocity of 85 mph for a long portion of that, takes its toll on an arm. I've pitched since I was 6 years old and I'm now 47. The chase for velocity is absolutely an issue. I wasn't taught a curve ball until I was 15 years old. Now kids are being taught to throw curve balls at age 8. My son when he was 11 played in a tournament where the top team was missing its 3 best pitchers. Two of them were in rehab from Tommy John at age 11 and the third was hoping to avoid surgery. Age freaking 11 and having TJ surgery. Greg Maddux and Tom Glavine would never get a look in todays game. Stop blaming the pitch clock, the elbow and human arm was not meant to constantly throw 95+.
Doc Gooden was talking to SNY guys and said it was about mechanics. During the conversation the guys brought up his 12-6 curve ball and asked if any MLB pitcher today throws a pitch like that. They couldn't think of anyone. In order to throw a 12-6 curveball you have to start down the mound with an upward shoulder tilt, and have an arm angle that is over the top- so that the elbow is above the shoulder when throwing. You see the sweeper today as a result of a more horizontal arm path. The horizontal arm path is correlated with TJ.
Great point!
No it isn’t. Randy Johnson is the antithesis to your statement. Degrees of external rotation per second and altered pronation at release.
@Smllc22318 he also has was 6 10 and had the leverage to pull it off. Randy was still centered on his delivering. Some machines are built differently. Kind of like a golf club. The longer the shaft the more bend you can put on it like a driver. The shorter the shaft the easier for it to break like a putter. Look at greg maddux. Small and didnt throw hard and never had injuries.
@@croach69 wrong. Longer “shafts” as you say create a longer lever arm. Longer lever arms increase torque at the pivot. In such an example, longer Randy Johnson arms would exacerbate delivery inefficiencies and encourage injury rather than cover them. In your example, golf club makers use “steps” towards the ends of iron shafts to account for the ease of flexing a longer iron shaft during the golf swing relative to shorter irons using the same shaft stiffness. Without this, the longer shaft would stand a higher chance of breaking, not a lower chance. Go find a short stick and a long stick of equal thickness in the yard, the longer stick is easier to break every time. The comment I questioned was related to a horizontal arm path and how that relates to TJ as a function of throwing a sweeper pitch. Those two things are not related and Randy Johnson is one example of why that is not true so as to demonstrate my counter argument as easily as possible. Many pitchers have thrown breaking balls that move east to west more than north to south and it is a function of the shape of the delivery - the “sweeper” is not a new pitch it is just being recognized with a different name. Watch videos of anyone who threw side arm in the history of baseball and you can see a sweeper as early as the beginning of baseball itself. And before you say it, no a sweeper does not relegate one to throwing side arm, but they will utilize a more 3/4 delivery than Gooden did - hence the angle of his curveball. Tommy John surgeries and pitchers durability are more closely related to altered pronation at release to impart as much spin rate as possible (this is why breaking balls will have a more deleterious effect on elbow health compared to straight pitches) and emphasizing velocity. Pronation at release is a compensatory mechanism inherent in throwing that protects the elbow. John Smoltz said it best in a recent interview that the game and contracts rewarding these metrics above most others, is beginning to rear its head. Outside of spin rate and what some would refer to as “over throwing” the measure of degrees of external rotation per second of the shoulder joint during the delivery is the primary contributor to torque at the elbow resulting in elbow injury. Former professional pitcher. No I wasn’t a hall of famer, now work in orthopedics.
That is not how you throw a 12/6 CB. You can throw it out of a 1:00 (LHP) clock position with your elbow slightly above the glenohumeral joint. The key is spinning the ball at a true 12/6 rotation. The cue I use with my pitchers is think middle knuckles to the sky, get the hand to the side of the ball and run those knuckles from the catcher’s mask through his bellybutton.
I remember Smoltz was a 92-94 MPH pitcher. They moved him to the pen and remember seeing him touch 96-99 as a closer. Funny thing is he then retired shortly there after. He was always the braves power starter, now he would of never been drafted. Several of my team mates use to say you had to throw the ball as hard as you could every pitch, I never did that and could go later in games.
He could dial a 98 for a key inning or two late in a game... even as a Starter.. I think he had superior genetics though. Some guys just don't get hurt as much. Randy Johnson was like that too.. He could pitch 94-96 for most of the game, but in key late inning gas it up over 100. Also, hitters are just better now. The art of hitting comes into play as well.
@@alcoholya hitters are definitely forced to adapt, I think with the invention of the new trajekt pitching machine the hitters will slowly balance the scale.
Smoltz still would have been drafted, come on now. They just would have ruined his arm.
Great interview here with a Braves Legend. Nice work Ben!
Excellent. Totally agree with John. How can you not? Wish you could get Strider on your show but glad we have John
That was a great interview!!! Excellent work! Great video! Thanks
Great interview! Such an important topic. Keep up the good work 👏
I want to see the best pitchers pitch and to do it for a long time. Stoltz is spot-on with his analysis, it is management’s fault, so let’s get it corrected before we lose everybody. It is in the best interest of the game we all love. And Ben you were right in saying that it bothered you to see guys throwing weighted balls and such to get stronger or get more velocity. Thanks for the discussion and I love John Stoltz! Great announcer and great pitcher!!!
Great discussion! Thank goodness someone is speaking sense about this topic. It's not rocket science. If you go max effort every pitch you are GOING to get injured eventually. The arm is not meant to hold up to that amount of repeated stress over time. They're literally teaching starters to throw like closers now.
great interview. Crazy to think how dominant he was in the mid 90's yet doesn't feel he'd be competitive today. Something is broken
I think he feels that he wouldn’t be given a chance to compete because he didn’t max effort 95+ every pitch even though he had it in him to touch 100. I remember when he was the closer for a time and he would consistently hit 98-100+ with a nasty splitter. Then when he returned to the starting role, he sat 92-94 and would hit 96-97 here and there with the splitter and slider combo.
@@juancisneros7005yup. I grew up watching him in ATL. He was the hard throwing SP which is crazy bc guys today routinely hit upper 90’s almost like it’s the standard. He’d be pretty mild by comparison!
@@patrickd8770 Definitely. Smoltz was the power arm of the trio of him, Maddux and Glavine. Maddux and Glavine were geniuses at dissecting batters and made them look foolish even without the upper 90s fastball even though Greg could hit 93-94 as he was coming through the minors but then figured out using location and changing speeds gave him the recipe for success. It seems nowadays pitchers coming up pitching that way would be turned away so fast.
@@juancisneros7005 yes and Glavine was usually low 80’s but untouchable when he was on his game. I wonder if that’s even possible today ? I can’t think of anyone who keeps it that low today
terrific conversation, gentleman!
I was a pitcher in 80/90/2000s and spin rate was not a thing; I am astounded at how much they can move a ball laterally now but I can’t understand how they can throw like that. When I was a junior you couldn’t throw a curve until you were 14 and it was there to protect the player.
there was no technology to measure it so it was not quantifiable, but everyone knew the more you spin a ball the more it moves, new tech just allows you to have instant feedback and make spin improvements.
Most of the huge increases in lateral movement (sliders and sinkers) you are seeing is no based in spin rate. It is the effect of seam shifted wake. They are making it move just like Maddox made his 2 seam front hip lefties.
Thanks for hosting him. Every time he opens his mouth I learn something valuable.
I played baseball till I was 20, threw a lot of balls. Had some arm pain around the elbow, played Here and there in summer leagues. Started playing Dodgeball, where you would throw it the hardest u can a million times a night. A soft nerf ball with spin and curve etc. I sustained doing this for 3 yrs..then my arm said stop doing this and cracked right in half. Was like a firecracker in my ear. Arms cant sustain all that force like John says. Now I can hardly throw a ball without pain. Obviously I didn't have a mlb Dr do my arm but the proof is there, arms can't handle all the things pitchers are doing now
Smoltzy is spot on as always. It’s not rocket science. It’s common sense.
Pitchers are now like NFL running backs, flame them out and find another. Muscles progressively get stronger and 'twitchier" and the tendons and ligaments holding joints together just cannot keep up with the increased torque they are subjected to. And while I hate the pitch clock, I feel it has no bearing on increased arm injuries.
John is 100% right, and the trend on the dramatic rise in velocity paralleling increase in elbow injuries can be traced back several years. However, for all his griping about people blaming the pitch clock, he's leaving out something important... It was the MLB Players's Union, and many of the pitchers, who pointed to the pitch clock. It wasn't MLB or random talking heads who linked the injuries to the clock. It was the union, at the behest of its members, and specifically the ones who throw the ball, who are the only people John says he'll listen to. There is blame all around (way more to those responsible for kids now suffering such injuries), but no blame on the players? Of course the players deserve some blame. The very reward system that's in place was put there in no small part by the players and their union. It's the most powerful union in sports, and its sole reason for existing is to look after the players and their interests vs the owners. They have to take responsibility for protecting their health and career longevity as well, not only chasing larger pieces of the revenue and increasing salaries.
Love listening to Smoltz. His knowledge and experience are awesome and far above my own. I pitched in high school and a bit in college. From my limited expirience, I'd say a large factor is rest and recovery. If you are throwing 100+ pitches at max effort every 5 or 6 days, it will wear on you. My last year in high school I pitched a fair bit. After the season, I had a little over two weeks off before joining a local travel team. In my first start for that team, my velocity was up about 2-3 mph on average (compared to my last few starts of the HS season) because my body had time to rest and strengthen. Wear builds on you. I don't know what the answer is for the MLB, b/c half of a team's roster is already composed of pitchers. To madate greater rest would skew that even more. Roster expansion maybe? It's a tough problem.
I agree with his analysis but also, pitchers don't do self massage which is REQUIRED to release the lactic acid in the muscles. Also, they need Ashiatsu massage to release the large muscle groups.
In this day and age, guys like Greg Maddux and Tom Glavine wouldn't have even been signed as they didn't throw hard enough.
They would get signed. Just not as top of the rotation. However, they would be the guy on the team that makes 150+ starts over a 5 year stretch.
Im pretty sure maddux threw 96 98mph early in his career
They both threw mid 90s in at the start of the career around 93-94 average. However, the thing about it is they could throw harder when they needed it. They teach guys to empty the tank now on every pitch but back then pitchers were taught to only use it as needed. Also, the science behind pitching and workouts has changed. I guarantee both would have greater velocity if they were privy to the knowledge that we have now.
@@joshualee6765 Maddux admitted he threw hard to get noticed. But became a pitcher once he was drafted. He learned to locate, change speeds, and make the ball move in various ways.
Greg Maddux and tom glavine were control artists pitchers.
This is an amazing take by Smoltz. As a physical therapist I've largely seen this effect on younger populations who develop arm injuries largely as these analytics have bled into youth leagues and these kids are playing year round without any significant rest. The human body has limitations...whether in adults or kids. The governing bodies of baseball and coaches need to protect their players, and owners should be more interested in protecting their investments.
Pressure on kids from the day they enter the sports pipelines. Batshit crazy schedules and batshit competitive vicarious parents. Highly evolved training programs intended to extract every last ounce of energy from the human body. Data, metrics and analytics just to make sure we put as much pressure on everyone as possible (even though good research has been done, especially in football, showing most metrics are useless at predicting game performance). Its to the point where the ONLY question on my mind at the start of every season is "Will my team get destroyed by injuries this year?"
Listening to Smoltzy talk baseball and pitching, is great.. He's that good!
I will never forget an in-game analysis they did on Maddux during one of his peak-level starts on TBS when I was a kid. Maddux would bend the ball in both directions and do it to both the outside and inside corners with as good of control as anyone in the game. He was able to do everything a pitcher could do in terms of movement, location, and changing speeds.
The arm is also not made to keep throwing month after month after month. All players need at least 4 months off of no baseball activity simply to allow the body recover. This is also another major issue with players today.
I slightly disagree. It's not good to try throwing your pitches all year round, but it is good to just play catch in the off-season. Not trying to throw as hard as one can. Not trying to throw breaking pitches. Just playing catch, like kids do with their dads.
Meh look back a century. MLB players pitched way more throughout their seasons. Than barnstormed all over the country. Some had second jobs. Because the pay wasn't enough. Look at some of the hall of fame pitchers. The god awful amount of innings they pitched. Back when there was no surgery or knowledge to fix anything arm related. Back than they pitched not throw. They had usually multiple pitches in their bags. It was alot of control and changing speed. Also alot of pitching to contact. Thrusting their defense. Managers knowing the game shifting the defenders. Maybe shift a center fielder up. Because you know the odds are the contact will lead to a shallow fly ball to center. The problem is to much on throwing hard and spin rate crap that don't matter.
My brother graduated from college in the mid 2010s. He averaged +/- 90 as a starter, and could push 93-94 throwing all out. He had a great changeup, consistently got guys out, always had good WHIP and ERA numbers. Teams, scouts, agents were talking to him and when the draft rolled around, they ghosted him. Had a teammate get drafted that threw 95 and couldn't hit the zone.
thank you for the honesty JS
I totally agree with what you have been saying for years. It's about max velocity and spin rate on every pitch. I had a parent ask if I can work with his 10 year old son to throw harder. I looked at him and said can we teach your son just to throw strikes. I told him that throwing overhand is the most unnatural movement. At the facility I work at, I had a parent with the pocket radar device he was using on his 9 year old son. Many of these facilities do not have people that have biomechanics, physiological and kinesiology backgounds.
We need to spread the word. This is like CTE in football. People need to be educated like an innoculation against ignorance. We need enough parents to know the health risks of chasing velocity and spin rate.
This has made it all the way down to youth ball. Kids aren't taught to pitch, they are taught to throw hard. They aren't taught to be a batter, they're taught to swing for the fences.
Expand the strike zone to the actual zone from way back...chest to knees. This takes the emphasis off velo as the hitters cant live on dip and drive mechanics. A fastball at 93 at the chest is just as effective as 99 at the belt to knees. This is the grand equalizer.
100 % agree. The result would be more strikeouts less scoring MLB no way wants that. Would rather sacrifice arms.
Underrated comment.
I was thinking even left to right expansion. Make the plate wider. An inch on both sides would be a tremendous difference.
@@86bryand Verticality is one thing, but changing the basic dimensions of the field is not okay (including the recent enlargement of the bases).
How would that slow down pitchers. If a 93mpb fastball at the chest is as effective as a 99mph fastball at the knees, pitchers will just throw 99 at the chest.
Man, what a great presentation by John!
I made a comment below about Nolan Ryan, who threw as hard or harder than anyone today. And he pitched entire games, and he did it for 27 years. A number of people responded that Ryan was an outlier and that he didn't spin the ball like modern pitchers do. I think everyone gets that Nolan Ryan was unique in many ways, but two points. First, most starting pitchers back in the day took pride in completing games. They pitched 9 innings. They weren't pulled after 5 or 6 innings. Pitching complete games is naturally going to produce more muscle endurance. Maybe, the attempt to preserve arms is actually lowering their endurance. Second, Nolan Ryan wasn't the only pitcher in the era before spin was everything to throw hard. Look at Bob Feller for example. More importantly, as far as I know, no one was measuring spin rate back then, so we have no idea how fast they were spinning the ball. They had to have understood spin to some degree or else there wouldn't have been so many different ways of scuffing the ball or putting substances on the ball. Smoltz knows more about pitching than I do. I'm just wondering if there are other issues at play - including a lowering of endurance due to the modern habit of pulling starters so early.
The pitch clock came out to counteract all the ads and commercials that caused the games to be longer.
Bingo. It's all about money.
John Smoltz makes a great core point that gets overlooked, and is grossly underappreciated. That is the role of incentive. If you understand the incentives involved it is far easier to understand the behavior in response to the incentive. This applies not just to baseball, but to nearly everything. As rules change, the people that make them need to understand there will be causal behavior changes in response to how the incentive and reward system changes. And if they do not understand there will be second and third derivative changes in response to the rule changes. First, do no harm. This starts long before MLB. Think about this: what would happen if composite bats were banned from baseball at every level, and every kid playing Little League had to hit with a wood bat? Model that out and think about the impact on behavior all the way up the line. John Smoltz understands this. He's a student of behavioral psychology and reward systems, just as much as a Pavlov or a BF Skinner. Do the MLB decision makers understand?
Well said. Incentives is everything. Bad incentives lead to bad behavior, if you want to change behavior, examine the incentives.
Smoltzy!!! truly appreciate your passionate input. I’m still waiting on a two half season. such a great idea. You still on the completion committee? Your input regarding the health of players truly needs to be heeded. It is dangerous out there. for example Dustin May and Bobby Miller.
My favorite pitcher of all time Kerry Wood, that spin rate was beast on that breaker and for sure why he had TJ and was never the same after. A healthy Wood/Prior and the Cubs fortunes may have been quite a bit different in the 90's
What are are the arm care exercises you and smoltz would recommend?
More physical therapy each day but not sure even that would do it
Thank you John for telling the truth so many idiots out there believing the pitch clock is the cause. It's so obvious it's how hard they are throwing.
Yea. It ain’t the pitch clock
I think its the arm slot alot of pitchers are taught to use. Where the pressure is more on the elbow than the shoulder. But you gotta think Nolan Ryan spun it on a 4 day rotaion instead of 5 seven to 9 innings and came out the bullpen in-between at times .I'd like to see a comparison between extended arm pitchers vs 90 degree type arm pitchers with frequency of elbow injuries. Also got to look at how they grip and release the ball some also compared to the arm slot they use.
I love Smoltz. Well said happy somebody’s got the balls to speak out.
As late as the 80s most pitchers threw at that pitch clock rate as a matter of course. They threw more innings and some like Nolan Ryan threw 95+ all the time without injury. It is the spin rate and radical breaking balls that are causing the injuries. I have seen Steve Stone say it and now John Smoltz. I would like to get Mark Buerle's opinion.
Just think, you could learn how to throw a changeup and increase your career by the same amount of pitches
I totally agree. Pitchers are throwing the ball way beyond their capabilities and hurting themselves in the process. But by all means, keep throwing the ball harder, okay?!
All of the pitchers that I remember being dominant actually performed better when they reduced velocity (Maddux, Pedro, Big Unit, Verlander, Kershaw, Grienke, etc.) and increased control, movement, pitch sequence, etc. More emphasis should be on actually learning to "pitch," and not just "throwing."
1000%. You'd think that is what the coaches would be for, and the young players want to throw hard. But it seems like all the coaches and parents just want their kids to blow out their arms throwing gas, instead of learning control.
Gosh I used to watch the braves play on tbs during summers as a young teenager. Smoltz, Maddux,Glavine great memories
Unfortunately, John did not answer the key question, how do we solve the problem of the epidemic of pitchers' arm injuries. It may be unanswerable. If you want to pitch in the major leagues, you have to perform at a level that has a distinct risk of injury.
He did. He said they can't throw it as hard, as often as they do.
@@name-vi6fs That's not a viable answer. MLB management would have to agree that all of their pitchers would perform at a level below their best. Then there would have to be a method to measure and control such a thing. And how would you distinguish a decent pitcher capable of 92 MPH from Justin Verlander's intentionally slowed down 92 MPH pitch?
@GalileoSmith his answer is correct. You want a magic solution in a biological world. There is no magical cure for torn tendons and ligaments, only surgery and time. Smoltz is essentially saying the PA and owners need to create a protocol similar to how concussions are handled in sports. If they take a look at previous decades in pitching, they can create a baseline of sorts. If the players and owners don't care, pitchers will continue to injure themselves. It's that simple.
They are going to have to go back to actually being "pitchers" instead of throwers. Guys are just trying to blow everything right past the batter instead of pitching to the hitters weakness or some having some actual control and putting pitches where they are getting miss hits. Let the guys behind you do their job.
@@GalileoSmithit is a viable answer bc it used to be the accepted method
It still amazes me the Nolan Ryan was able to throw for 27 years and able to throw in the high 90s the whole time without falling apart. He is truly 1-of-one. I just hope that other players don't chase that philosophy thinking they can do it without getting hurt.
Ryan used his body a lot. Strong legs helped take some of the load off his arm.
@@ncasti Yeah, I remember seeing old clips of Ryan weight training, one of the few to do it back then. He was strong like bull!
Guys arm was the baseball equivalent of tom platz's thighs. Absolute freak arm structure that let him throw 85mph at 60.
@@ncastiyep, which he showed Randy Johnson, and he too had a long career as a pitcher.
If you look at his body, the way he used his legs, and then his wind up, his arm was doing the least amount of action. He got most of his energy before the arm went forward, that is the key in all of this.
I work with installing and maintaining conveyor systems and we don’t run mechanicals at 100% Capacity. Everything is set at 80% capacity to for best performance and longevity
yeah, it's already been progressing to volume of max effort arms with the opener and relievers and then having more ready to fill in when they get hurt. it makes starters and going 7 IP obsolete, that's been the answer.
We need Smoltzy to be the commish
After playing pro ball for 6 yrs, tearing my labrum, having 2 surgeries, spending 2 yrs in rehab and eventually leaving the game bc of my injury this is my perspective. The reason is that the organizations do not listen to Ortho docs about proper rest times between outings. Science says do less with more rest and MLB says do more with less rest. Pitchers have become expendable. If one goes down, there are thousands ready to jump in. Injuries will not go down until teams start to properly value the science, which in turn is valuing the health of the pitcher. When a pitcher is Fighting to get to the top and stay at the top, there is no room to communicate fatigue. If you do, you will be labeled as less motivated, weak, etc. There is definitely a blacklisting present. When it comes to arm health, the priority should be a routine created from research not by the motivation to win.
He’s right! You always need to understand how someone is compensated first, then you can examine their behavior patterns.
Thank you John! I have no problem with the way your Braves pitchers pitched except for when you played my Phillies! But you are right about the way they are being taught to pitch! I’m 45 and loved watching Greg Maddux or Tom or you pitch. I was brought up by my father that great pitching has nothing to do with velocity. It has to do with location, change of speed and movement on your pitches.
I think it’s lack of Cardio. This is a problem for all positions. Position players can pull something running to first cause they pump iron but don’t keep the body loose because they think static stretching gonna work. Running also helps pitchers heal in between days. Wish I knew this sooner but I remember hearing about James Shields habits. he threw gas and had a healthy career because he was running after every start. Once I started doing that I noticed it was way easier to heal in between starts. No im not a ML and don’t throw anywhere near 100 but it was a significant difference in how long soreness lasted…
Oh interesting I never heard that.. a new pictures did a lot of running but I didn't know it helped with soreness. How much distance would you recommend let's say 11-year-old to run after pitching?
Increases blood flow to the body, increased oxygen in the blood. Makes sense!
Uh. Hard to buy that argument. But blood flow does aid in healing
players do cardio, just not as much as the old school coaches tell them to. It's standard protocol for pitchers to do some running after starts for bloodflow to the shoulders.
@@my2l they all probably don’t do anywhere near enough. Which makes my point.
2:19 I would argue Chapman has been doing it for quite sometime. But at the same time 1 he might be an anomaly and also 2 he works out. And idk if it’s a lack of resistance training or if humans aren’t capable of doing this for 4-6 months. Now I agree that there’s very few pitchers and a whole lot of throwers. In my opinion adding both resistance training and teaching these throwers to pitch is the right combination
Chapman also only has to work 1 maybe 2 innings a game so he can afford to throw that hard.
@@TheForeverRanger I would agree but a lot of them are not starters as well. I mean Bautista is a closer as well and he’s out. So that goes out the window
pitchers are still pitchers in mlb, they just throw harder than before, a thrower with terrible command is not making it to mlb let alone sticking around for a career.
@@my2l batters get hit in the head often I don’t see pitchers hitting their spots in todays age of mlb baseball. Is very rare. Most of the technique is to over power the batter. There’s no sequencing and executing that sequence in todays pitching so no there are very few “pitchers” pitchers. The game has changed and yea it works chucking 103 mph is very hard to hit but to what detriment. Injuries are up 🤷🏽♂️
@@luisz3354 that's simply not true at all, walk rate has not changed much in the last 40-50 years (it's actually significantly lower than the 90s) and the starter with the worst walk rate now wouldn't even be bottom 10 thirty years ago, the league is actually less tolerant of guys who can't throw strikes now. If your definition of a "pitcher pitcher" is the 88mph lefty with a nice changeup that guy has been filtered out a long time ago in the minors, you NEED TO miss bats to be effective in today's game, striking out 5 per 9 innings makes you rely heavily on defense and luck.
I figured Smoltz would have a great take, and I was not disappointed. He even mentioned how the organization that develops their pitchers to balance stuff with health and endurance can gain a competitive advantage.
The Phillies currently lead almost every pitching category this season as of this date. That’s all 5 starters. Out of those starters, only one guy consistently throws mid to upper 90’s and that’s Wheeler. Nola, Suárez, Turnbull and Sanchez all top out around 93-94 mph and they throw of breaking stuff. It can be done with smart pitch selection and a good game plan. The only thing I worry about is this new Sweeper pitch that puts extra torque on the arm…
10yrs? Hate to break it to you but it's been going on for almost 30 years. As a late 30's former pitcher I watched it happen through all stages of my life personally. Being a kid in high school as a left handed pitcher hitting mid 80's all game, winning all the time, and lowest era every team. It's been going on for wayyy longer. The guy throwing 3-4mph faster but couldn't hit the zone, no movement, flat trajectory, and losing constantly got put above me simple because of it.
A lefty throwing mid 80s and can pitch would still get high level college offers 20 years ago.
Smoltzy knows what he is talking about. He was part of the best 3 in baseball!
90s braves were fun to watch. Im a yankees fan. Greg, tom, and john were b.a
This is an excellent short interview. I'm starting to think that Ross Atkins (Blue Jays' GM) has purposefully signed and traded for pitchers who have a lower chance of injury, and are more traditional 'pitchers' as opposed to today's 'throwers'. I am thankful he's done this (as it could easily be an attractant for recruiting), and hope some other GMs do the same.
I appreciate Smoltz's insight and clear analytical mind. He came across very persuasive here.
Smoltz hits the nail square on the head. “Spin rate”. WTF? “Exit Velocity”. Nonsense stats made up by fantasy geeks. You don’t need to throw 100 mph to get guys out if you can change speeds and locations. No one pitches anymore. They throw.
Well said
not true, the best pitchers can pitch better than ever now, except they throw everything max effort. If you look at stats walk rates have remained the same or lower than 30 years ago. If an 88mph arm could really be a top level starter we would see one in mlb, except that's not really possible in today's game.
Honestly before strider got injured my wife and I were watching Chris sale and Charlie Morton’s first starts and we noticed how much more selective they are with harder pitches early on. Maybe it’s the vet experience or the game they came up… but compared to strider who basically has the weight of the entire baseball world forcing him to push 98mph+ from inning 1 through 6. Can he do it? Hell yes… but not surprised he pushed it past the point. Maybe the mlb needs to incentivize creative revisions to pitching roster- enable 1-2 more bullpen guys or give teams reasons to think differently about the role of the starting pitcher. But it ain’t the clock. Biggest conflict is mlb wants hits, homers, and excitement. Tilting any advantage back to pitching hurts ratings… I dunno, maybe this is a dumb idea but I definitely agree - it ain’t the pitch clock.
I would think 1-2 less bullpen arms would incentivize longevity of starting pitchers.
@@Fetch0491-2 more is what I said haha. Basically make it easier for teams to pull in the 4th or 5th. Might be crazy, I’m not an expert. But seems the standardization of the 6 inning starter is possibly a cause here when combined w smoltz’ point around analytics. Id want to learn more about the history of the “starting pitcher” cause I honestly don’t know the background on how we got to the current bullpen roster rules
@@yateswebb If you have pitcher pitch less, then they will throw harder, because they can. That's part of the problem. The reason pitchers pitch less isn't because it keeps them healthy, but because they can't go as long while throwing as hard as they do. The obsession with velocity led to smaller pitch counts and less healthy pitchers. I used to read books on pitching from HOF pitchers, and they all said they didn't throw as hard as they could all the time, because they were expected to pitch deep into the game and for many starts in a year. But they could dial it up in a key spot. They also said that changing speed was the key, because batters can time up to even a 100 MPH fastball, if that's all you throw. Whereas if you have a 90 MPH fastball, and a 70 MPH Change or Curve, you can get the batters off speed with either one.
There are so many ways to prevent this type of throwing that ruins arms. Baseballs can be modified. Pitching deliveries can be outlawed. You can make pitchers were a brace to support which will lower speed. I am not a kinesiologist but I am sure there are many ways. You can limit pitchers on your staff.
Wow, I'm not even a fan of baseball, but I love listening to this guy.
i'd rather watch a rerun of john smoltz pitching than a new game. any day of the week!
Same.
I love to see a starting pitcher like Stryder, but am done with the endless bull-pens, and instead when the starter is done go to a position player. 5 man pitching roster. Pitchers hit, no DH. I want to see all round players.
Agreed. Bring back real baseball. I think this has a chance to happen, but probably not through existing pro leagues. It may happen by baseball being reinvented from the ground up through groups like MLW, Blitzball, etc.
Smoltz..one of the GOATs...love the dude..
Dude knows baseball. Anyone who’s played knows what he’s spewing is legit.
Truth. Smoltz is real
Parents making their kids get a Tommy John surgery in highschool is another symptom of the "throw the ball a hundred miles an hour" to get into the big time.
The league can't bring in a rule that punishes pitchers from throwing over 95 mph or something like that, but maybe what they could do is drastically reduce the number of bullpen pitchers on the roster - this would force teams to have their starters go much deeper into games, and perhaps return the focus away from velocity to location and control. I can't see any way to counteract this problem other than a significant reduction in the number of bullpen pitchers that teams have available, and perhaps even limits on the number of innings/week that individual bullpen pitchers are allowed to pitch.
Bob Feller was one old time pitcher who came up in 1936 throwing absolute smoke. Over 100mph. Routinely led the league in strikeouts, wins, and complete games - but at some point in 1947 had an arm injury and had to learn how to pitch a little differently. He was still a very good pitcher for the rest of his career ..... but would not ever rear back and throw a pitch as hard as he could. If he had learned to do this BEFORE he injured his arm his career numbers would probably be even MORE impressive.
"why are people so earger to crush those for speaking the truth?" excellent question, and why is our entire society like that in all areas? the world has gone crazy
The voice of reason.
Is it velocity or spin rate initiated on the ball?
While still a professor, I attended a conference where Mike Boddicker was the guest speaker. It sounded like John Smoltz and Mike Boddicker spoke the same language regarding pitching. That was about fifteen years ago.
Listened to the Odd Couple podcast a week or two ago and Chris Broussard floated the idea of limiting the amount of pitchers a team can use in a given game. Let's say the number is 5. You can only use 5 pitchers for the day. That would greatly emphasize starters going deeper into games. They would pitch to contact more, preserve more energy for later innings, etc.
Dumb
@@bnegs521 dumb how?
@spacelion4763 and if you use the first 4 the 5th guy stays out there and what if he is having a bad day. Look Chris knows nothing about baseball
@@bnegs521 Forces managers to plan accordingly. Again...the problem right now is starters being used for 5 innings...so the mindset is having them throw as hard as they can without regard for them needing to go deeper into games. We need to FORCE pitchers to stop throwing hard to every single batter and pitch to contact more. Limiting the amount of pitchers a manager can use would FORCE that change. Sounds to me like you're the dumbass here
@@bnegs521 If you use up all your pitchers, you get fucked. That is the point. It's to force pitchers to pitch longer, and relearn how to pitch without just throwing as hard as they can every pitch. Having 20 relievers is what enables teams to be so reckless with their pitchers health.
At some point MLB teams will no longer offer pitchers long lucrative contracts. There are just too many injuries and the recovery time is a year plus. Or maybe just a few teams will and that will be worse for MLB.
It's really about the economics: if the teams can afford to treat pitchers as disposable, they will. If it costs too much, or if the talent pool dries up, that will force change. Sad but true.
Great interview! I think (and I’m just a fan, no baseball skill here) that this issue will take years to correct itself, but eventually it will. Young stud athletes won’t want to pitch. Teams will literally run out of arms. Then the pendulum will swing back to “92 with excellent command”. I personally think that’s the way to anyway to get 30+ starts a year, but what do I know, I’m a Mets fan.
Smoltz your an Ace bro! Always. Looking back at 90s Braves they had Tom Glavine John Smoltz , Steve Avery and Kile Abbott and then added a Greg Maddox. I don't remember not one of those aces throwing at 100 or 99 even. I could be wrong but I doubt it lol. It was more about ball movement and placement and outsmarting the hitter period, not just trying to blow on past every time
Baseball has taken the art out of pitching and replaced it with power. No longer is about control, command, pace and longevity. Starters go 4-5 innings max, and GMs are ok with that due to financials. The incentives need to change to before behavior changes. Youth sports need to adapt as well. Too many young men suffer arm injuries serious and otherwise at 12-14.
They would rather have pitchers only pitch 3 innings as hard as they can, and increase the roster size to 25 pitchers, before they actually address the real cause.
Nolan Ryan wasn’t human
This is very true
@@FlippinBatsPod right?!
He was the exception, not the rule. Also, he used his legs very strongly in his windup to get the whole chain going. His arm was basically going along for the ride.
God the author life gave him strong tendons and ligaments. Thats the key is to work on developing stronger tendons and ligaments in the off seasons. I believe doing Isometric exercises and weight lifting will help in this area. Nolan Ryan is a great example of this.
He was a one off. There will NEVER BE ANOTHER
There is a difference between throwing hard and throwing smart. Guys have more pitches in their tool box nowadays too which obviously causes more inflammation.
There was a Doctor who came out and said the problem is the icing down of the arm right after pitching. He said the human body needs that initial inflammation to start the body’s own healing process In other words to repair and make it stronger The icing doesn’t allow this process because it stops the inflammation from occurring or minimizes it. Think about it Do body builders ice down after working out ?
I've always wondered about this myself. If the purpose of inflammation is to increase blood flow, and the purpose of increased blood flow is to increase healing, what effect would we expect icing to have? Sure, it may reduce pain, but pain is just a side effect of the inflammation.
@@blahblah49000 You need that inflammation to start the healing process It’s another reason for tired arms late in the season.
Nolan Ryan threw the ball as hard or harder than anybody today. He pitched entire games, and he did it for 27 years.
But he didn't spin the ball tbe way they do now. Fast ball, change and curve.
Some guys are outliers. Ryan was able to throw extremely hard and snap off an unhittable curveball for 27 years without an injury, he's an exception.
@@NotFadeAway522 Back in the day Tommy John was the exception. Tom Seaver was the rule.
@@johnshepherd9676 It was all in his mechanics. Pitchers don't run enough today. Seaver,Koosman &Ryan ran in the outfield every day.
@@philstaniscia7103 The mechanics of spin put stress on the elbow. The more spin and velocity the more the stress and higher rates of injury. There is more emphasis on bio-mechanics today than in previous eras but the bio-mechanics emphasize maximizing performance and not longevity.
Teach your kids the knuckleball!
The torque on the arm throwing as hard as pitchers do today puts ever increasing strain on their elbows and shoulders. When did you last see a pitcher pitch a fu 9 innings? How often does ot occur?
I remember one practice I was throwing hard and had a bunch of pain in my arm pit. Coach sat me for 3-4 days, no throwing and the pain went away. Always wondered wth happened. Never happened again, either.