On this episode, Seth is joined by Assistant Director of Engineering, Joe Thielen, Director of Marketing, Neil Davies, and Senior Ballistician, Jayden Quinlan. The group discusses what it takes to bring a cartridge from a concept to commercially available. The conversation begins with defining the SAAMI organization, and why the standardization process is so critical for new cartridges. They cover how wildcatting encourages growth within the industry and also dispel some common myths. We hope you enjoy this educational episode.
I’m a loyal Hornady customer… not a hater. Luv you guys! But I have a difficult question: 13:55 - 14:55 in this video you state [Our goal is to not stifle a SAAMI standard cartridge but to get it out there to the public] (paraphrased). I would like y’all to honestly explain to us how refusing to produce 6.8 Western ammunition is per your claims “not stifling” it. Perhaps I’m missing something? It’s not like the 6.8W is some crappy old inefficient design that has some inherent technical flaw. On the contrary, it is modern and efficient. A definite improvement over the overbore and slow twisted 270WSM. It looks to us like Hornady is indeed proactively choosing to stifle the 6.8W cartridge. Now that you have the 7PRC rolled out is it not possible for Hornady to stop suppressing the 6.8W and just produce the SAAMI spec cartridges that the consumer wants? To everyone reading this: drop a like on this comment if you too would like to hear Hornady explain themselves wrt the suppression of the 6.8 Western cartridge.
You hit on all the questions I had , go man go, I have a Winchester Supergrade sitting in the safe waiting on brass and more reloading info.
First, let me say I do not represent any manufacturer, but quite frankly, I haven't seen a ton of people trying to buy 6.8 Western. The local gun shops have had boxes of it sitting on the shelf, unmoving. The only company making ammo in any kind of volume is Winchester who introduced it. It's unfortunately a good cartridge that fell flat plain and simple.
Thank you guys Not just for the podcast but for everything you guys do for the Community
gave my son in law a 6.5 Creedmoor for Xmas a few years ago, and he never shot it until two days ago. Tuesday we finally set the scope. Wednesday morning the two grandsons came over and shot it for the first time. (I have a shooting lane, bench, etc.) Wednesday afternoon they BOTH killed a deer with the 6,5 Creedmoor. I now have to buy two more and get dies. Thanks Hornady. We've made two more lifelong hunters.
oh, and to the topic at hand: I started reloading seriously a handful of years ago when I 'retired'. Within two calibers I had started referring to SAAMI for specs as a point of reference for the "manual" loads. How does 7.65 Browning differ from .32 ACP is for example of the things I looked up. Great podcast guys.
@jimmywilliams78, lucky you. You’ve created life long memories that are pricele$$! 👏 👏
25 PRC or 25 Creedmoor in the works? Personally love the idea of a 25 PRC, so much potential in a 25 that is yet to be fully seen in a commercial rifle/ammo offering (257 excluded). A lot left in the tank for this caliber.
When the 25WSSM came out I was like, so close and yet so far off the mark. I still want a factory 25 PRC, 25 WSM, or 25 SAUM offering.
As the case with so many commercial industries past and present, "interoperability" is the word the comes to mind when considering to purpose and goal of SAAMI. Great podcast, but it brings up the question if there were specific issues that led the US government to see the need to create SAAMI. Was it the result of increasing numbers of shooters being injured by reloads, or was it to ensure the consumer could expect some level of consistency (including safety) when purchasing different brands of ammo? Or maybe it was a little of both. I've also learned that if you want to get under the skin of some reloaders, refer to a cartridge as a "wildcat" AFTER it has been SAAMI approved. It doesn't matter how long the cartridge existed as a very popular wildcat load, it's as if they believe the cartridge's history must be wiped clean. Maybe your explanation that a belief the industry "stole" someone's cartridge is what drives this point of view. Again, great podcast and discussion.
Awesome explanation guys! Seth really is a great host to spark the discussion and absolutely love these episodes 🙏🏻
Great podcast. I work in tech and I definitely understand that proper standards are a must for any industry. It’s part of what has driven all technology forward and makes any type of troubleshooting possible. I also like that you brought up the importance of wildcatting. The industry is most healthy when there is a balance of rigorous standards coupled with the mad scientists who push the boundaries to see what’s possible.
Can’t tell peak pressure to within 10,000 PSI! TRUTH BOMB! Thanks Joe!
Best Part of the week, right here!!!
This is a wonderful podcast (as many of yours are)! I’ve been a wildcatter for years. I have Ben make all my custom dies. I love listening to you talk about the smaller calibers (I have a 6.5 creed myself), however as a primarily big bore rifle shooter, I’d love to hear a podcast just strictly on big bores. 300 RUM to 460 Weatherby. Especially high efficient, long range offerings from Hornady. Thanks for a great podcast guys!!
This was an excellent discussion on SAMMI and should serve to negate all the unfounded claims made recently in regard to new cartridge developments being stolen.
Great podcast. Thank you for the little peak behind the system to bring a new cartridge to market.
I wanna hear more about Jayden’s elk hunt!
A question on max chamber pressures: Is there a good reason with cartridges that are basically a neck-up or neck-down of an existing cartridge to only do minimal increases with the max chamber pressure from the parent? In particular, I noticed this with the 6.5-284 which only increased the 284's 56,000psi max pressure by 2K psi? Heck, the children of the 308, the 260 Rem, 7mm-08, and 243 actually use lower pressures. I noticed that once Weatherby extended the 284 case for its 6.5 RPM, they bumped the pressure up to 65,000psi. FWIW, I am aware that the 284 Win's pressure was initially limited to match the bolt thrust of the 308 for the Model 100 and 88 which had limited bolt strength (similar to why the 6mm ARC's max pressure is designed around the AR15 bolt strength). Thank You Edited: I realized that the 30TC and 6.5 Creedmoor matched the 308's chamber pressure for the same bolt-strength reasons, so I removed another question.
I hope someone intelligently answers this. I know I dont load my 6.5x55 to its max load.
@@justice1327 I looked this up a while back. Vihtavouti powders in Finland basically said that it depends on your rifle. Higher pressure loads can be used in modern rifles, usually called the 6.5x55 SE or SKAN load (55,114 psi, CIP rating). The reloading site gives this warning: "WARNING: DO NOT USE with Krag-Jörgensen, Mauser M1896 or similar rifles." The problem is that the Krags are weak and the Swedish Mausers (M1896) varied in strength over the years. Some are stronger than others, so they recommend the lower pressure load, just to be safe. SAAMI uses the lower-pressure load, largely to prevent problems with the old surplus rifles.
Would be nice to see y'all talk about the 22 Hornet and 17 Hornet ammo .....
Second this! Hornet still rocking!
We promote new cartridges, make a few and never have any to buy
Curious about what you can’t find. I see this a lot in hornady’s podcasts
They forgot the company was built on selling supplies to handloaders originally bullets
@@jamesb6899 yep and fact of the matter is people are lazy ammo is out there just need to look for it. Just cause their hardware store or Walmart don’t carry it, don’t mean it ain’t available.
I'm glad Jaden called everyone out about how getting SAAMI approval on a cartridge and chamber is, in fact, beneficial to the company because of that SAAMI stamp! Everyone was trying to make it sound like it was only beneficial to the buyer to have something with a SAAMI stamp 😅 12:57
Very interesting and fun Podcast. Thank you for sharing your knowledge. Regards from the Swiss Alps.
Glad you enjoyed it!
Congratulations Jayden!
Good job on this one guys.
Would like to know if Hornady is going to be making cartridges in the 360 Buckhammer and 400 Legend in the straight wall cartridges world. I would like to see Hornady do a comparison between 350 Legend, 360 Buckhammer, 400 Legend and 450 Bushmater when the other two cartridges are manufactured.
Great episode, entertaining and informative.
Much appreciated!
Great idea talking about this subject fellas👍
Glad you enjoyed it
When I worked on Posix computer standards under IEEE and ISO, we wold occasionally have a member company object to a certain provision, and not always be completely honest about why they were objecting. Do you encounter that sort of thing in SAAMI meetings, as well?
Are you guys going to do a long high bc component 70 eld-x or eld-m?
Hornady you need to get brass out for the cartridges you designed
Great Podcast Thanks Guys 💯 💥💥💥💥💥💥💥
Thanks for listening
Great podcast! 👍👍👍
Thanks for listening
Lotta people who complain about new cartridges need to hear this
The issue is not that it isn’t better. 7 PRC is better than 7 REM Mag, no doubt but it isn’t a new rifle better…..the cartridges cannot be improved dramatically enough to justify a new rifle 99% of the time…especially for hunting. Unfortunately that means the industry is very stagnant and they only have marketing left to convince ppl to spend money…
20ish years ago I used to chase custom cartridges like modified 260 and 280 Remingtons and the like. Having gotten back into it again recently I'm happy to see so many quality, standardized precision rifle cartridges. I shoot 6.5 Grendel and 6.5 Creedmoor in both gas guns and bolt guns, and will likely play with 6 ARC and 22 ARC once I get around to it. And your 7 PRC is on my list for a long range precision rifle, once I get around to that. It really does make things easier for everyone when there's a standard. In my years I've pulled apart so much ammo going from one custom rifle or barrel to another it's ridiculous, and as a father I worry that after I'm gone my son or some other family member will put something marked X into a rifle marked X and then get hurt or worse because it was something custom.
I have become a believer in stamping any nonstandard info on the barrel. That way, at least they have a chance to know that standard ammo might not work. For example, typical 308 match chambers have a freebore of .3085" dia whereas, SAAMI 308 spec still allows a .309" dia bullet. If I recall correctly, factory 308 rifles with the match chamber often had "match" stamped on it, which I think is the bare minimum.
My big game season is mostly over. 4 whitetails shot 6.5 Creedmoor and 120gr CX. Unfortunately 3 of the 4 tested positive for Chronic Wasting so we'll see how this plays out for the local deer herd. I just hope it stays out of the moose and elk population.
2 questions. Where is 22 creed at in saami approved? And how are the 62grVT doing in the 22 creed?
Is it just me that noticed that everyone that works at Hornady loses their hair
I think when people talk about "stealing" a wildcat they might be operating on a couple different thoughts; 1. That they are the losing out on royalties that they thought existed by SAAMI spec. cartridges. 2. The wildcat they came up with is just enough different from the SAAMI spec that it won't work with the new chamber/cartridge. 3. They can't brag to their handloading buddies about their new mousetrap, but now they can say "great minds think alike, me and (enter ammo manufacturer here) were designing the same cartridge. Heck they even called to compare load data."
I am not a wildcatter. I do reload. Thanks for an informative and interesting episode. SAAMI 101.
Newish here. Have you, or can you guys do an episode on hearing protection for training and hunting?
There's definitely a difference between hearing protection and noise reduction. Some states don't allow noise suppression devices. Thanks!
Thankfully wildcatters are trying new things, and Hornady is willing to do the work to bring some of these ideas to the public.
I am confused as to why the tolerances for new cartridges typically remain the same as used for decades, even though the things like the freebore clearance gets reduced. For example, the freebore of the 6.5mm PRC is ,2645" dia, but the tolerance on the drawing is +.002", the same as for cartridges like the 308 which starts off with four times the freebore clearance. If the freebore is critical to accuracy, why not reduce its tolerance? Does the difference between a clearance of .0025" and a quarter that of .0005" not have a significant impact on average accuracy? At least the max diameter spec for the bullets for the new cartridges have been reduced to below the freebore dia instead of sticking with the traditional numbers. Even with the 30 TC, the bullet spec was ".309 - .003"", which meant that the max allowable bullet dia was larger than the min freebore dia. I would think that could cause pressure issues.
Love Hornady and all but trying to find any other hornady ammo other than American whitetail is like trying to find a needle in a haystack. When you do find it, its 70-80$ a box.
I have a career and family already in place with hunting and reloading as hobbies. I have young boys (ages 8, 12 and 17). I want them to have careers that give them opportunities for adventure and innovation with time to hunt and father families. How would y’all suggest I get them started thinking about a career with Hornady? Or another similar company…?
15:50 you guys have loading data for the 300 wm that's outside of SAAMI spec
Can we get a podcast on freeboring?
Any chance we will see anythingoffered in 8.6BLK?
What do people mean when they say, "The chamber is designed to match the cartridge?" Isn't the chamber just the negative of the cartridge, or is this more of an issue when standardizing a wildcat?
You have to have clearance in the chamber. The chamber dimensions are almost always larger than the cartridge, the balancing act is how much larger and where to make a good fit/interaction.
Coming from a different industry it sounds like SAMMI is your version of ASME or ANSI that would be used for lots of other manufacturing/design.
Also just now finished the video... I'm hunting with a 300 win mag for the first time this season. Already bagged a doe and going out for more this week. I know it's overkill for whitetail but it'll be my eventual moose and elk gun so I'm gonna be getting used to it. It's coming out of the Ruger African as well 😉
👍🏻👍🏻
Turns out I still shoot the old ones. 6XC, 6.5-284norma,. 270win and 9.3x62 You said that you didn't simply neck down the 7PRC from 300PRC, the 7PRC is it's own thing. Forgive me if I'm wrong, but a 6creed is not dimensionaly in the program, being a necked down 6.5creed with no corresponding decrease in case volume like what is seen in the 6.5, 7 and 300PRC:s Not trying to justify my own choices or deny the consumer what they ask for, but next step down in bore size from the 6.5creed with the corresponding case dimensional changes, gives you the ....6XC
I had a guy the other day ask what i hunted with. I told him i retired my tikka ctr 260 this year,and bought a bergara wilderness ridge 6.5 prc. Told him i wanted a little more power. He put his chest out and said,you should of went on up to the creedmor!!!. I grinned and said ya your probably right. I walked way and never tried to convince him any different.
So Hornady: How do you explain stifling the 6.8 Western?
A lot more recoil for not that much more performance over the 6.5PRC. They said that on another podcast
Let's see.... Hornady makes ammo, not rifles. Winchester and Browning did not produce many rifles in the cartridge. I have seen the ammo but not a single rifle. Hornady does not have the power to make or break a cartridge. In fact a lot of their cartridges fail in the market place. Remember the 300 and 338 Marlin Express? The 30 TC or the 300 and 338 RCM cartridges? How about the 300 Whisper? All of them were introduced by Hornady. Even with the 6.5 Creedmoor, It took 7 or 8 years to catch on (it was introduced in 2008). Heck, they didn't even make hunting ammo for it the first year. Hornady has made a good run recently with the PRC series and the 6mm ARC. As mentioned in the video, the 6mm and 22 Creedmoors were SAAMI certified by Hornady, but became popular as wildcats. I think that part of their success is that they work well with firearm manufacturers to make certain that enough rifles are available at launch to start some momentum. After all, companies like Ruger, Marlin, Howa, Tikka and Savage have no real incentive to push a new cartridge that has one of their competitors in the name.
I'm just getting into wildcatting, largely because I have weird taste in rifles and the cartridges I have in the works (one waiting on a reamer one still drawing) will very likely never catch anyone's eye but mine.
So has Hornady given up on the 6.5 Grendel???
My #1, Kimber 84M, 257 Roberts, 117 Hornady RN, 45.5gr Hybrid 100. Killing machine. Why is the 25 cal. going away??
Let’s hear a podcast on the 6 creed. Did one for dang near every other cartridge y’all developed
👍👍
sammi comment - tbf i dont know of any examples of wildcatters who actually made a new cartridge being upset other than the 300 wsm situation, the goal is to shoot more and have more to offer. The vast majority of people will never be able to make their own barrels or do anything relating to wildcatting, it is an awesome niche that you can have a ton of fun in. But at this point it doesn't take much thinking to say "man i should neck this larger caliber down and put a smaller bullet in it so i can get more velocity" then go "HEY YOU STOLE MY IDEA" its like seriously its been beaten to death at this point just let it go. We all love to shoot, this gives more people access to cool calibers. The vast majority of calibers have so many other calibers that do almost exactly the same thing. Get your reloading gear, pick a cartridge that fits your goals, practice handloading and go have fun.
The WSM brouhaha was interesting because Jamison did most of the early development work, showed the data to Winchester through their Law Department as a confidential document, and had informed Winchester at the start that he expected "a reasonable royalty payment." Winchester was fully aware that Jamison had applied for patents (he received 7). It was originally to be called the JRW (Jamison, Winchester, Ruger) series of cartridges. Winchester basically strung Jamison along for two years, then just changed the name of the cartridges, ironically after they had been introduced at a press hunt in Feb 1999 as the "new JRW Short Magnums." It was pretty sleazy. The text from the legal case is online. Ruger avoided this mess and had Hornady develop the slightly different Ruger Compact Magnums. Remington had independently developed the SAUM (Short Action Ultra Mag) cartridges. It is possible that the difference was that those other two sets of short magnums were made from shortening existing longer cases that they, themselves had developed (375 Ruger and 300 Rem Ultra Mag). Although the 404 Jeffery is often cited at the parent of the RUM, SAUM and WSM, it is significantly different (different body and rim sizes, not significantly rebated).
@@jfess1911 It is sickening when an individual goes out of his way to do everything properly get everything in order and approaches a company with a product that will make a huge difference and they do something like that truly a scummy example of what companies do
@@Chris-liwymi That is why Jamison won. Winchester did not dispute the facts, they just claimed "Olin asserts that industry standard is not to pay royalties on cartridges," Jamison had proof that he had approached Winchester with a business venture and had a paper trail to show they strung him along. I was surprised to find out that, unlike the typical wildcatter, Jamison had approached it as a business: working full time on the project, buying equipment, hiring an assistant, legal counsel and patent attorneys, etc.
@@jfess1911 That is awesome to hear it’s not too common that the individual wins versus a company in situations like this it makes me sad because I really wanted a 300 WSM as my primary large cartridge but chose the seven PRC when it came out because I can’t find 300 WSM ammo anywhere
@@Chris-liwymi The 300 WSM gains a lot when loaded long and when using a "match style" chamber like the PRC has. It then requires the same length action as the 7 PRC. The WSM series was designed at the tail end of the "shoot light bullet fast" era. Now that laser rangefinders are common, I think that cartridges like the 7 PRC have the edge. Especially now that bullets are better than ever. Good Luck
When are y’all going to come back with another QandA with Seth and Jayden? Also, how come y’all don’t touch on shotgun shell reloading? Specifically slug and sabot slug reloading?? Y’all make shotshell slug ammunition and buck shot ammunition but don’t produce any load data?? Aren’t y’all “the bullet people”?
I have watched both videos on the 22ARC, and see a bit of gaslighting here. Yes SAAMI is very important, but give some credit to the developers of cartage's before they became SAAMI approved, so a little less justification on what Hornady did to bring these cartages to the market. After all they did it to make money.
Around minute 24:00 they explain that They do their own testing and yes, they take suggestions but they don't hace spies going around to figure out other ppls wildcats
They are also NOT a non-profit company and last I checked, in America, you can make money while helping out other ppl
I really don't see any gaslighting. The typical way a wildcat is made is that someone necks up or down a case and sends an example off to a reamer maker. More often than not, it is the reamer maker that actually designs the chamber. Over the years, I have seen a number of wildcats, and virtually every one of them has been designed around a particular bullet. That typically limits it use. In the video, they mentioned the wildcat 6mm Creedmoor vs the SAAMI approved one. The freebore of the wildcat was made specifically for 1000 yard shooting with the 105 grain Amax and 105 Berger Hybrid bullets. It appears that Hornady lengthened the freebore to work better with hunting bullets (and probably keep max pressure down). A new generation of match bullets has also been developed since 2009, when John Snow and George Gardiner developed the wildcat.
I can't wait to get out to my hunting land so I can get my deer this year....
I like 6.8 western but nobody supported the caliber, why don't hornady just adopt the design and named it 6.8 prc ... just a thought ...
We are hunting whitetails, kids use 6arc ar, 6.5 creed ar, and I use 308w ar!!! Americas rifles!!!!
Love the Hornady cartridges!!! Hornady has it going on, every cartridge they design, you can go to any store and buy the factory ammo for the cartridges. And the ammo will have awesome hunting and match bullets that work loaded in the ammo. Keep rocking it!!!!!
Really I'd love to know where their 6.5 Grendel ammo is???
Have a projected eta on 8.6 blk?
Don't know much about how cartridges are born, but I know how they die...lack of support. You know, the way Hornady is effectively killing off their much ballyhooed 6 ARC now that everyone owns one, because they're on to "the next big thing." 🙄
Boy if you just work as hard at producing ammo and brass as you do at all your promotions videos we'd be doing just fine 😞
Sounds like im running north of 60k psi on all my stuff..... Lol
This podcast sounds like damage control or at least done to silence the haters. Im excited about the 7prc but for now i working on a reloading set up
If you want to say Hornady steals from the wildcat shooter, well, maybe they should of taken their idea to SAAMI themselves and make that money.
I gave you a thumbs up for trying but your videos are way too long. I'm 30 min in and stopped watching. I thought I was going to learn about the development of a commercial cartridge but most of what I heard was bitching about what some people have accused you.