The History of the Arkenstone - Is it a Silmaril? | Tolkien Explained
The Arkenstone is the great "Heart of the Mountain", the gem passed down through generations of dwarven kings. It was discovered as the dwarves first settle in the Lonely Mountain, and followed their people to the Grey Mountains, and back to Erebor once more. We will talk through both the history of the Arkenstone and whether a popular theory that it is a Silmaril has any merit!
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The Arkenstone - Ted Nasmith
Heart of the Mountain - Ted Nasmith
The Arkenstone - Donato Giancola
The Silmarils - Aegeri
Arkenstone - Andrea Piparo
Thrain Discovers the Lonely Mountain - Ted Nasmith
Dwarven Smith - Turner Mohan
The Arkensone - Fantasy Flight
Moria Dwarf - Turner Mohan
The Dragon is Coming - Tulikoura
Erebor - WETA
Conversation with Smaug - Ted Nasmith
Where are you, thief - Skullb*st*rd
Thorin bestows gifts upon Bilbo - John Howe
Thorin Oakenshield - John Howe
The Hobbit, Searching for the Arkenstone - Alan Lee
Erebor & Dale - WETA
The Death of Thorin - John Howe
The King of the Mountain - Alan Lee
It ends in Flame - Jenny Dolfen
Feanor and the SIlmarils - BellaBergolts
Elu Thingol and the Dwarves of Nargrod in Menegroth - Steamey
Maedhros - Lida Holubova
Tulkas Chaining Morgoth - Kip Rasmussen
Maedhros and Maglor prepared to defend themselves and die - Catherine Karina Chmiel
And Maglor took pity upon them - Catherine Karina Chmiel
Maedhros - YidanYuan
Maglor Casts a Silmaril into the Sea - Ted Nasmith
Feanor with Silmaril - Steamey
The Treasures of Erebor - Aegeri
Melkor and the Silmarils - Sara M Morello
Thror - WETA (Paul Tobin)
The Making of the SIlmarils - Kuliszu
Feanor Creates the SIlmarils - Ted Nasmith
Beren Recovers a Silmaril - Anke Eissmann
Carcharoth - Turner Mohan
Death of the Lord of Nogrod - Steamey
Death of Thingol - Steamey
Maedhros Casts Himself into a Chasm - Ted Nasmith
Dain - Turner Mohan
Smaug and Bilbo - Andrea Piparo
Smaug the Magnificent - Alan Lee
Surely that is a Silmaril - Alan Lee
Alatar and Pallando - Ralph Damiani
Minas Tirith - Aegeri
The Oath of Finrod and Barahir - Anke Eissmann
Radagast the Brown - Ralph Damiani
Gandalf in the Archives of Minas Tirith - Matthew Stewart
Alatar and Pallando - Ralph Damiani
Witch King - John Howe
#arkenstone #lordoftherings #tolkien
What do you think? Would it be fun if the Arkenstone was a Silmaril? Or are you glad the Arkenstone is it's own separate thing?
If it was a silmaril it will, cause a lot harm
Like the silmarils
Silmaril-like
Nope. Different light pattern, it was shapped by the dwarves and I also believe Gimli know about them, so he would see its light on Galadriels hair.
It’s a very cool theory, but who knows? Like many mysteries in Middle Earth, this one remains unsolved…
The best indication that it's not a Silmaril? One of Feanor's sons didn't pop up out of nowhere, murder everyone there and then take it. It's just an exceptional gem.
Yep! (Not at all)
the fact that one of Fëanor's sons didnt pop up isnt an issue because at the end of the Silmarillion the Oath of Fëanor was declared null and void and the only son left at that point was Maglor who "came never again among the peoples of middle earth, but wandered along the shores of the sea singing in despair". because he never had any further contact, he wouldn't have known of the existence of the arkenstone.
@@CalebRosa-qb2qy Couldn’t just let a joke sit there could you? Had to overly explain something that didn’t have to be added didn’t you.
Weren’t they all dead by the third age?
@@Nick-zp3ub Maglor May still be walking the beach as far as we know lol
Thranduil was a Sindar who lived in the First Age and most possibly saw the Silmaril of Beren. So when Bilbo showed the Arkenstone to him and Gandalf, he must have recognized if it were the Silmaril. If it truly were a Silmaril, Thranduil would have paid any cost for it to return to the Elves. Yet, he didn't.
he should also then know that possessing a Silmaril also gives its current holder great misfortune. it has ruined realm's before Erabor, like doriath, & the harbors at the mouth of sirion. wanting a / wearing a silmaril may has well have had strobe lights lighting up his realm like a damn Christmas tree at midnight to every source of evil in middle earth. in an era of no artificial lights............ not to mention the dwarves wanting it back. a silmaril is more trouble than it is worth.
We can't be sure about Thranduil but Gandalf absolutely saw the silmarils. He is a maia. If it was a silmaril, he should have done something about this.
That's what I was thinking. If it were a Silmaril, it would surely have been recognized as such. There would have been an OMG from Gandalf.
@@cr90captain89 true but still throughout the ages elves have strived to get their hands on the silmaril despite the curse around it. Also not all elves necessarily knew about the detailed curse unless they were at present when the curse was spoken.
If Thranduil thought the Arkenstone was a Simaril, he would have taken it from Bilbo by force, fought his way out of from the arms of Erebor, left the men and dwarves to Smaug and then immediately departed for Valinor.
Gonna be honest, you should do long form videos. I could sit all day and listen to you talk about LoTR lore, all day. Very few people have the gift of a voice for descriptions and telling stories. Well done as always, good sir.
Thanks so much! Perhaps I will be able to do some occasional long videos soon!
Agreed 💯
I concur…
I second this. I've relistened to so many videos just to hear him talk about stuff while I cook
Make a playlist!
If it was a Silmaril, Gandalf would have recognize it for sure. Not because of the gem itself, but for the light of the trees of Valinor was unmistakable. He would have take it back to Manwë.
Honestly, I'm more for the Arkenstone not being a Silmaril. The original gem's stories are just so influential and the endings to those stories so perfect that I think it's better that the Silmarils remain lost until the end of time.
when I watched the Hobbit I thought that they kind of purposefully played with the idea that it could be a silmaril but from the books I think there is little evidence that it actually could be one.
@@6666Imperator Now that you say that, they kinda do lean into the possibility of it being one of the Silmarils in the movies. But I agree. Lore wise, I just don't think there's any possible way for the Arkenstone to be one of them
It makes me wonder, perhaps it is a prototype for the Silmarils? Their creator made many gems before the perfect Three, but what if he’d come very close to making a fourth? Perhaps Morgoth kept that one from the Spider Queen as well, but lost it at some point?
@@eldermillennial8330 That's actually a pretty interesting thought... and very possible too. Even if it isn't a 'fourth prototype' it could be one of the many gems Feanor made before he created the Silmarils.
@@eldermillennial8330 I would find it more likely then it's simply a cystal that thouched the silmaril deep in the rivers of magma underground and got imbued with a fraction of it's power and glory.
Ungoliant consumes lesser gems before morgoth refuses her the silmarils. After the first age we know she buries herself somewhere deep in middle earth until she, in her uttermost famine, devours herself. Its possible the arkenstone is one of those lesser gems, brought to middle earth in the bowels of ungoliant, then left under the earth for the dwarves to find long after her passing
I find this theory amazing and valid. That's an awesome idea about how that could come to be without involving a Silmaril.
Ungoliant supposedly disappeared somewhere in the deep south of middle earth, so how could one of the gems she ate end up under Erebor?
@@exorphitus She had to poop somewhere along her way XD
@@exorphitus key word: "supposedly." We dont know exactly where she is in middle earth. She couldve dug into the depths in the south, then made her way north underground
That theory is awesome
I like to think that the stone was originally a fragment of either Illuin or Ormal. The two lamps that lit the first iteration of the world. Melkor smashed them and a melting fragment sealed some of the light and was buried in the destruction. Can explain the dragon sickness too if the stone has a slight taint of Melkor upon it.
Now this is a cool theory.
Oooooo that’s a cool idea.
That would also fit the location and the fact that is shines like silver Sunfire just like the northern lamp
The "Dragon Sickness" is a invention of the movies. It was never a thing. Thorins greed was just plain old greed.
@@JiryStark The book certainly mentions the dragon sickness, although it may not have been a literal magical disease like they portrayed it in the movie. At the end of the book it is said the Master of Lake town fell under the "dragon-sickness" and tried to escape with his share of Erebor's treasure.
Another thing that i really find interesting is how Thorin's oath sounds incredibly similar to that of Fëanor and his sons
Except fëanor was much more violent about fulfilling his oath
@@faethon6990 That puts it rather mildly.
@@PiscatorLagerViolent is a rather grand understatement of “Batshit crazy homicidal.”
@@alpharius2omegaboogaloo384 *genocidal
"The Lonely Mountain would have needed to be a volcano" Looking at it geologically, it most likely is! There really aren't any other mechanisms for a singular mountain to form other than a volcanic hotspot. This doesn't however explain how Maedhros' silmaril could travel under two different mountain ranges to get there, or the lack of burning those with evil in their heart. (I'm going to go off on a limb and say the "silmarils burn mortals" is not 100% accurate, not just because of Beren handling one, but the dwarves who set it in the Nauglamir must have been handling it also.)
The way I read it, the Dwarves aren't mortal, their souls are still bound to the earth after their death. Mortality means having a soul that can leave Arda, and not be reincarnated as Elves are or held by Mandos on behalf of Aule, as I seem to remember reading is the fate of the Dwarves? I don't know, I might be wrong.
Could it have travelled underground in magma? It is indestructible after all. But then again, the dwarves fashioned the arkenstone.
@@redcreyes geologist here, maybe, probably not. for that to work where it entered would have to be a place where magma was subducting, and, then the lonely mountain being a hotspot volcano would have risen with the gem within it. the problem is time, 5,000 years is too short a time scale for convection currents to take it that far, for the volcano to build up, then go at least dormant and then for the dwarves to find it, especially for such a huge distance, thats just not possible
When the silmaril was thrown into the magma wasn't Arda flat? Eru later formed it into a sphere. That could have been the reason it traveled under other mountain ranges.
@@crazycraig6 i mean, we have literally no idea how geology worked on flat Arda, or how it was changed, so you could say anything, but personally the simiril just teleporting thousands of miles makes very little sense and what you've just done is given yourselves less time for the simiril to move to its new location, for the volcano to form, go extinct, and for the fact that the lonley mountain was once a volcano to pass out of memory, now you've decreased that time from what 5,000 years to what 4-3 thousand?
My personal headcannon is that the Arkenstone was placed in the lonely mountain as a gift from Aule. It was an imitation of the simaril and a test for them to see how well they can form it.
My theory is that both the Arkenstone and silima contain mithril cations in their crystal structures, but in different ways.
How about it's a work by both Feanor and Aule, at one point Feanor enlisted his help or blessing in the creating the Silmirils. Still not coming out as he wants, he flings it away in anger. With how he tends to put himself in his work, that explains the chaos around them. That fire that makes him get after it. Because it's also made with the help, assistance, or nudging of a Vala, that little characteristic about it boils over in unforeseen ways in the world. Just like it amplifies the light it reflects, the same is true for the inevitable chaos to come. As fantastic as it was, Feanor didn't solely fashion it himself and his ego or pride got the better of him. He wants it to be his. All this is a byproduct of the discord. Some things may never be perfect because the discord is part of the world itself. Can't fully get rid of it, only overcome it. In a way the Arkenstone had to be overcome and let go for the dwarves to move on. Add a touch of dragon sickness and it can make people into real monsters.
I think you've missed the obvious and very important follow up question: Then what IS the Arkenstone? It is definitely not just a regular gem.
It's exactly what Tolkien says it is... an incredibly rare gem and beautiful gemstone that has the additional significance of being connected directly with the dwarves of the Lonely Mountain
Silmaril = Piece/Fragment from the 2 Trees Arkenstone = Piece / Fragment from the 2 Lamps Both jewels are similar in description , so maybe ?
@@ramondelgado4927 Correct me if I'm wrong, but weren't the 2 Lamps destoryed around the land that would become Rohan?
@@jim.the.editor Its a gem that shines with its own light though. So theres some magic involved with it. What magic is that and where did it come from?
@@jim.the.editor CG t FB
Personally I like to believe that this was a gift from Aulë to his children. I don't know when did he make it and put it in the mountain, but I believe it must be him.
Aule: Mmmm , you know , those elves surely had a lot of fun (tragedy) with those Silmarils , i bet my dwarves could use something like that Manwe: Dude no Tulkas: Double dare you bro >>>>>>> Fastforward 10K yrs
No, I think it would have gone like that: Manwe: Elves are better than dwarves Aule: No! Manwe: Dwarves are greedy! Aule: Ummm... Elves just committed three kinslayings over gems... Manwe: True, that was a mistake, but dwarves would have done even worse things over gems! Aule: Bet? Manwe: Ok. Make a gem similar to the sillmarills
Nice, very nice. Never heard this before. You got your own video to make now! Lol.
When Tolkien originally began writing The Hobbit he considered it as separate from the mythology of the Silmarillion. However, he inevitably began copying over ideas (e.g. the elven kingdom in Mirkwood plagued by giant spiders from the northern mountains and with some place called Dorwinion to the southeast... like the First Age elven kingdom of Doriath plagued by giant spiders from the northern mountains and with some place called Dorwinion to the southeast). Thus, when he introduced a precious jewel into the story he used a name for it, 'Arkenstone', which was a modernization of a term, 'eorclanstánas', he had previously used when translating the word "Silmarils" into Old English. The similarities between the Arkenstone and the Silmarils exist precisely because Tolkien was re-using the concept in a story which was originally intended to be separate from his 'Middle-earth' tales. Did the Arkenstone then 'become' a Silmaril when The Hobbit was incorporated into the larger mythology? Presumably not, because of the issue raised in the video... the Silmarils were specifically fated to be lost until the end of Arda.
Even though the Arkenstone is most likely not a Silmaril, I wonder why no one considers the fact, that it could actually be one of the lesser gems that Feanor himself created? Digging in a little bit further, since it was mined in a supposedly raw form and facetted by the dwarves, it could also very well be pure 'silima', the substance from which the Silmarils were made!
It is said that Fëanor's first creation were white, and had no color. However, shined with blue e silver beans such as the stars of Varda. As for the composition of the Silmarils, Tolkien states in the Silmarillion, that only in the end, when the sun no longer shines, and Fëanor returns from Mandos, we'll get to know what were then made of. Not sure where u got that from, but I might not know, because I haven't read Unfinished Tales
Yeah I'm on that wagon.
It was a giant waste of time, and just got buried right after with the mad who found or claimed it. The dwarves really didnt care about it, nor did anyone else really. The elves cared more about some diamonds lol. Tbh it was a huge quest for a item that really only held value to one man.
@@stephenlaing2152 highly constructive and well thought out rebuttal there.
It could be, and I have wished for a long time that J.R.R. would have given us a backstory on the arkenstone.
It's also interesting that Thorin's oath to take revenge against anyone who would keep the Arkenstone from him is eerily similar to the oath sworn by Feanor and his sons to recover the Silmarils at any cost and to fight friend or foe to retrieve them. Tolkien was clearly against obsessive behavior regarding attachment to objects and showed again and again how such behavior could lead to ruin.
“For the Arkenstone of my father,” he said, “is worth more than a river of gold in itself, and to me it is beyond price. That stone of all the treasure I name unto myself, and I will be avenged on anyone who finds it and withholds it.”
I always thought the Arkenstone contains the silmaril. Kind of like an amber encasing a fossil. Thus mortals were able to handle it. And since no one knows it is the silmaril it is technically still lost until end of time.
That is a good theory as well.
while i love this, still how would one of the most (if not the most) valuable thing in that world end up 1 continent 1 ocean away from where it was last time, deep underground and ENCASED in stone (and also in this case in cristal/sort of gem)? I also believe a kind of "protection" such a gem case would mean nothing for the likes of Thranduil, he would most likely know it is a Silmaril even if its encased.
Had the same thought. Don't think it's accurate, but still a ton of fun to think about.
Fossils arnt encased in amber tho.
@@toobig7150 No more incredulous than bilbo just happened on the one ring and none of wise realized it for years.
It's also hard to believe that none of the Wise would have recognized a Silmaril for what it is. Still, the Arkenstone's origins are mysterious. What is it about a "heart of a mountain" that can produce its own light? It must have been imbued with such light by a powerful figure. If not Fëanor, then who? And when? Perhaps the Vala Aulë created it and placed it there when he created the mountain? After all, he also created the dwarves in secret. Maybe this was another of his secret creations? Could there be other such stones in the roots of other mountains? And perhaps it was fate that his children, the dwarves, would discover it.
I like this, although I feel like if the god of the dwarves created it for them, it would probably imbue at least some positive influence on its host, rather than just being very pretty and tempting them with obsession. Perhaps it is something even older and more arcane...
Considering the amount of trouble that sprang from the Silmarils before, I could see some of the Wise keeping quiet about the gem if they recognized it, and hoping that the dwarves would keep it tucked away where it could cause the least amount of turmoil.
@@danshaw1096 Perhaps the dwarves recarving the stone also changed something about its nature/appearance that confused characters who had seen silmarils before.
@@jamesm1 If it was a Silmaril then the dwarves couldn't have carved the stone. I think the Arkenstone is just a big giant diamond built under the pressure of the mountain (hence the "heart" metaphore), and the problems and obssetions it caused can be explain by the dragon's curse upon it, if you remember Glaurung from the Silmarilion (the very first dragon) he had some really freaking powerful "mental control" powers.
I figure some of the light from the silmaril ended up imbuing an oridnary stone and that's the arkenstone.
I think there is also another argument against the theory: Thranduil, having lived in Doriath, would have recognized it. Right?
While i'm willing to Join your General Argument (at least, Gandalf should have recognized it) - weren't the Stones of maglor and maedhros in the crown of melkor? And then guarded by eonwes Men? So, thranduil might Not have Seen them, i guess
@@tomdreler6528 it did not it was ''A' silmaril i imagine that they all looked the same.
I think thingol died before thranduil was born
And also thranduil at this time was a elven child and not someone of high standings
@@IceFireGamingMinecraft Fair, but I am not sure. I couldn't find anything about Thranduils childhood in the books. He and his father were from Doriath, and his father and other Sindar elves travelled to Mirkwood to adopt a simpler life with the green eleves, away from the Noldor they didn't like. However, Tolkien states that Thranduil shaped his mansion in Thingol's Menegroth fashion. I ask, how could he knew what Menegroth looked like if he hadn't lived there or at least visited numerous times? Let's assume he was a child when Thingol was assassinated. His grandson Dior ruled for quite some time before inheriting the silmaril from Lúthien, and much like Thingol he could not resist displaying the Silmaril for everyone to see (and got killed for that). I believe there were many opportunities for Thranduil to, at least, take a glimpse at it (and let's not consider other possibilities, starting when the Sindar fleed Menegroth taking Diors daughter and the silmaril until Earendil's trip). And from Tolkiens descriptions about how people reacted to the silmarils, I believe those "glimpses" would have been memorable. Or at least strong enough to never be forgotten.
Something you've missed is something doesn't have to _be_ a Silmaril to contain the _light_ of a Silmaril -- as Galadriel's phial proves. I think the curse of avarice attached to the Silmarils because of the dire oaths of Feanor and his sons would have an especially strong effect on dwarves because we know that the Rings of Power had that effect on them, something not even Sauron had expected. Galadriel's phial had an especially potent effect on Shelob as a daughter of Ungoliant who devoured the light of the Trees. It stands to reason that the Arkenstone, if it contained the light of a Silmaril as the Silmarils contained the light of the Trees, would carry a similar kind of transferred effect.
I thoroughly LOVE the artwork and theory. It's easy to compare to actual stuff on our planet, while at the same time allows the mind to go to a different world entirely and honestly forget your still seemingly here on earth. 🔥🔥🔥🔥
Have you thought about voicing over an audiobook? You make a great storyteller, and your impressions of characters are always great!
DO IT! start with the hobbit :D
Thorin did say he would take revenge on anyone who would keep it from him…sound familiar? Hint: Oath of Feanor…?
Oooo...interesting!!
That's what I immediately thought of. Also, it wouldn't suffer the touch of any mortal? Kind of how greed became Thorin's downfall and died in the battle after?
What if Círdan had given Narya, the Ring of Fire, to Saruman instead of Gandalf? Would that have prevented Saruman's fall?
nope. Saruman would still have believed that Sauron was unbeatable.
@@sophiejones3554 But Narya gives people hope, so I think it's not quite as cut and dry as that.
I doubt it. What caused Saurman's downfall was his own desire for the Ring, Narya wouldn't have changed that.
@@sophiejones3554 Don't think this is the correct conclusion. Saruman was intensly interested in ring lore, studied the making of magical rings himself and crafted a lesser ring as a project for advancement of his knowledge. I think he would still have desired to possess the one ring and used the powers of Narya to this end.
@@dannyvaneker9595 I agree. He went down the path first because of his hunger for more knowledge probably at first in honest work to understand and then destroy evil but then getting more and more corrupted along the way.
Awesome video as always! The Arkenstone is one of my favorite objects in Middle Earth. As for other mysteries you could make a video on, maybe the fate of Maglor? I always found it interesting that Tolkien left his fate a mystery.
Ooo - that's an intriguing topic! I'll definitely cover that when I do a video on Maglor!
Have you ever done, or would you consider doing, a video that goes over Gandalf’s names among the various races and why he’s called different names? Olórin, Mithrandir, Incánus, and Tharkûn? Love this channel. You do awesome work!
I think Tolkien imagined the stone as a proof of dwarves determination to dig jewels... so much they found the heart of a mountain, the ultimate jewel that no other race would ever find.
By that token, isn't it comparable to say that he imagined the ring of power as a cool magic ring that let you turn invisible, but that plausibly had even more fanciful and incredible secrets behind it? Both of these examples are debuted in The Hobbit, at that, Tolkien's very first work, and one that started as a literal child's bedtime story. So, as the ring was fleshed out into a more meaningful plot device in the context of the world as it developed, couldn't he have carried the concept of the arkenstone on as well when it came time to invent the Silmarils?
Warhammer 40K lore nerd here; feeling displaced by the way GW has been gutting the lore of late. Always loved LotR and the beautiful world it's set in. Coming back to it more and more now to remind myself of what good lore-building actually looks like. You have a great channel here, and I love every minute of it. Subbed :)
A solution: During one of the many periods when the Silmarils were under threat of theft, a gem of great resounding brilliance was placed near a gathering of the stones, and in time, began to reflect their light in the merest fraction, but even that was astounding to most. Like a copy of Mona Lisa made by Leonardo's best student, or a ceremonial duplicate of Excalibur crafted by Merlin as a prize to a Knights' Contest. Once it had absorbed what brilliance it could, it was left as a decoy, and at least one thief fell for it. Nabbing what would become the Arkenstone, they either met their end when their employer realized the truth or cast it away in embarrassment and shame near enough to the lands of the Dwarves that it would settle in and eventually be found. Perhaps the nameless things in the Earth saw it, tried to grab it but were repulsed, pushing it along its way till it was unearthed. So it was the Arkenstone was not one of the fabled Silmarils, but was blessed all the same by their reflected light and its unwitting service in waylaying thieves from them.
To be honest, I find it much harder to resist the Arkenstone than the One Ring.
I mean Thorin was in the presence of the One Ring for weeks and wasn't affected at all, but the Arkenstone corrupted him immediately.
@@valentinkambushev4968 Thorin never knew that it was the One. Neither did Bilbo, and at that time not even Gandalf. The Arkenstone, on the other hand, was the symbol of Power to Thorin.
@@tomskowski6239 well, Gollum didn't know either yet look what happened to him. But I think tge reason is that back when Tolkien was writing "The Hobbit" even he didn't know it was the One Ring.
I like to think that the one ring was "asleep", like a bear waking up from a nap in winter/spring. That might be why Thorin and the dwarves weren't affected much. Personally my theory is that everything played a role in botfa. Dragon sickness, one ring etc
@@slowdown6908 well Dwarves are naturally resistant towards evil magic. The seven rings didn't have the same effect they had on the humans and Gimli, despite being in the presence of the One when it's fully active, never showed any interest in it. And even though it never happened in the book Gimli is the only one to try to destroy the One Ring.
I can feel myself falling back in love with this series just listening to you talk about different subjects. Thank you for these videos!
I like the idea that the indestructible Silmaril cast into the fiery chasm became encapuslated by a mineral shell and retreated from the fire to nestle in the crust elsewhere, which happens to be the heart of Erebor. The prophetic "discovered at the end of time when Feanor returns from the Halls of Mandos" can be an epic moment when Feanor does the unthinkable and shatters the Arkenstone, revealing the Silmarlil at its core. May not be author's intent, but its a good story anyway. :D
You should do a podcast 🙂🙃
Yes
While the Arkenstone glowed with its own light, I've never gotten the feeling it shined as brightly as a close star. As mentioned in the video on The Sons of Fëanor who hunted the Simarils, even though they'd not heard of one being set in the sky, they immediately realized from the ground that it must be a silmaril. That's a lot more light than the Arkenstone apparently produced, giving me another reason to believe the Arkenstone was not a silmaril, much as I love the idea of one of them being rediscovered.
Never thought about the fact that the Arkenstone could be a Silmaril. A very interesting theory, but as you stated, it's probaply not a silmaril.
sept it is wrong theory, the one sits on Erendils forehead, the second was cast in a gorge of the deep earth in the old world that now is flooded by the sea after the last war against Morgoth. and the last was Cast in the sea by maglor. so no it isn't a silmaril
Unless Aule added the light of the trees, then they are not the same, in substance alone, maybe
Great video. I love the idea of the Arkenstone being one of the Silmarils. More so, I thought it might "contain" a Silmaril. Through underground rivers and lava flows, it passed through the earth's core. Intense heat and pressure encasing it in diamond like crystal. That explains how it could be shaped and held by mortals. Also goes with what Tolkien said about them remaining lost since it was not actually found.
That’s kinda smart tbh
That actually makes a lot of sense.
I personally like to think that the Arkenstone is *another* famous gem from the First Age -- not the Silmaril, but one of the great jewels lost to Morgoth, and carried east.
Cool to see a video that combines lore from both The Hobbit and the early ages of Arda .
I just read the Silmarilion and this was one of the first questions I had while reading it. Great video!
So glad I have found this channel. The information is really easy to digest and I’m learning and remembering quite a lot. Many thanks
The complexity of lotr lore is amazing and I love it. To learn about this is amazing
How about this theory - the arkenstone is a larger jewel, that contains the intact indestructible silmaril inside it. That explains why it can be handled and worked on by the dwarves. Also maybe for what tolkien said, maybe at the end of the world, the arkenstone will be destroyed, revealing the silmaril inside it. I dont know if i fully buy this theory but it does kinda make sense.
geologically, highly unlikely, another crystal growing around the simari completely , unlikely but possible, that gem being of an extraordinary hardness and quality, again unlikely but feasible, the dwarves, the master gem smiths of their age, not noticing that the Arkenstone was one gemstone within another, that i can't believe
@@bleddynwolf8463 Crystals growing around another crystal is actually very common, inclusions are usually small, but they can be large. Yes i would agree that it would be strange if the dwarves didnt notice it. To explain that part we would have to say something like that the light of the silmaril hid it from view or that it was totally invisible without completely breaking open the arkenstone.
@@leedade ok, learned something new
Sort of like a crystal geode. Considering we don't know what type of minerals Erebor has, I guess it's geologically possible.
Like the Tesseract hiding the space stone. Like the Ring of Power, the Silmaril could have changed shape for whatever reason and then become revealed at the proper time.
You are absolutely right-the fact that a person can sit down and wonder at all the 'if's and "maybe's left behind by these great works, as they do with our own history, _does_ make the world of Tolkien seem very, _very_ real. And that's amazing!
Thank you for your videos and thanks for subtitles, so it´s easier for me to watch and read it because of the language barrier. Thanks. Love from Czech Republic for everyone, who admires Tolkien´s wonderfull world and is watching videos that may educate him.
Great video Matt! I have two ideas for future videos if you like the sound of them: 1: What if Bilbo did NOT spare Gollum. That would change Frodo and Sam’s route and possible even the destruction of the Ring. 2: Rank your fave Jackson films extended scenes (I love extended Council of Elrond). Thanks for your great content !
That's an easy one: Frodo would have become the next Dark Lord.
This was allways an amazing theory for me, 'cause I loved to explain all the threatenings and wars in lotr with the disturbed peace of the three silmaril, such as all the horror started with the great wars of the 1th age with morgoth taking them. But I know this is very far from reality, I just loved the idea... Nonetheless I guess I'm glad that the arkenstone is its own cosmic and misterious thing such as Tom Bombadil isn't Illuvatar, just because I like it when things can stay for their own and aren't kind of fanservice. Luckily Tolkien had a talent to create allways new things with a new and interesting mystery in it ;) Great video btw :) :)
I know some people ask for longer video but as Im concern I hope that you keep that format. I love your video but I also like the fact that they are around 15-20 min max. It the perfect time frame to be both informative and fun without taking too long to listen.
You just made my weekend a little bit more amazing and epic, my mind goes so free listening your videos, it's like a travel to Tolken's world 🌬♥️ thank you!
John Rateliff's _History of the Hobbit_ discusses this from the viewpoint of the history of how Tolkien's ideas developed (pp. 603-609 in the first edition; I haven't seen the second). The upshot seems to be that the Arkenstone was for a while a sloppy borrowing from the Silmarillion world into what was then the separate world of The Hobbit, but when The Lord of the Rings forced The Hobbit and the Silmarillion into the same overarching history, the Arkenstone could no longer be an actual Silmaril but only something with partial similarities to them. One of the details of this history of Tolkien's ideas is that when the medieval English mariner AElfwine (who got to Tol Eressea via the Straight Road) translated the Annals of Valinor into Old English, he explained "Similarils" as "Eorclanstanas" (in History of Middle-earth vol. 4, p. 282 in hardback or 335 in mass-market paperback).
That's basically it. The Hobbit was originally a tale told to his children not intended to be part of, but drawing on a lot of the ideas he used in the stories of the First Age - which he'd long been writing by that point. The Arkenstone is based on his ideas of the Silmarils and plays a similar role in the story. As Thranduil and his underground halls and feud with the dwarves are based on Thingol and Menegroth and his betrayal by the dwarves who made the Nauglamír. When he started the LotR and brought the Hobbit fully into the world of Middle-Earth those parallels remained but became a bit more awkward.
@@jeffmacdonald9863 They also bear similarity in that unlike the One Ring, the Silmarils and the Arkenstone are true examples of a MacGuffin: that is to say, the only truly important property they bear is that everybody wants them.
Was always curious about this thanks
Fantastic video as always. You do such a fantastic job at explaining the facts of Middle Earth’s history, and personally I’d love to hear more of your personal opinions! Maybe rankings of your favorite characters or stories from the legendarium, etc.
cool vid Matt really enjoyed it looking forward as always to your next vid
Perhaps a compromise? Feanor presumably didn't create the Silmarils out of nothing; only Eru has that power. The Silmarils would have started as raw, uncut gemstones that Feanor worked into the marvelous creations that they ended up being. Maybe the Arkenstone is the same type of raw gemstone that the Silmarils were made from?
Agreed, but the arkenstone did not contain the light of the trees.
The Arkenstone could have been a lesser early work of Feanor or another elven smith. Or, as someone said, a gift from Aule to the dwarves, or any number of things. Tolkien had a habit of not explaining everything. Middle Earth is old and not everything has been remembered.
I don’t think so. Feanor clearly made the gems and the gems held the light of the two trees.
@@timothywertin7423 made them from nothing, though?
Tolkien created a concept of open world long before we even had any such concept .
I personally like the theory by Scott Alexander that Maglor’s Silmaril is actually what's inside the briefcase in Pulp Fiction.
My personal theory is that the Arkenstone isn't a Silmaril, however it is the same type or rare gem Fëanor used to craft the Silmarils. That is a big secret on how he managed to create the gems, which material he used to cut it into gems; given the characteristics of the Arkenstone's behavior with Light I truly believe that it's the kind of gem Fëanor used to capture the light of Laurelel and Telperion. So the Arkenstone isn't a Silmaril proper since it wasn't cut by Fëanor, but if the Two Trees were still shining and Fëanor alive, he could well make the Arkenstone into a Silmaril.
I am still one of the people who thinks that it IS (possibly) the Silmaril of Maedhros. We know from the Silmarillion that they are *practically* indestructible. Yet Feanor apparently had some method to break them - that's what the whole argument was about when they had the council of the Valar after the death of the Trees. It's possible that after a few millenia of enduring the terrific heat and pressure of magma, the outer layer of crystal was softened, warped, changed, and re-crystallized into a form that could be worked with great effort and skill. Diamonds are the hardest natural substance on Earth, and yet we've figured out how to cut them and facet them. It could also be that some other crystalline, gem-quality substance crystallized around the original silmaril at the heart of the Arkenstone, thereby making it workable, and also meaning that none of these mortals were actually handling the gem of Feanor directly. We don't know where Maedhros cast himself into a fiery chasm, but it was after the War of Wrath was won. It's possible that Beleriand was already sunk by then. The Volcano of Erebor might have only formed by and been active during and immediately after the War of Wrath, meaning that it could have potentially had a few thousand years to cool off, before the dwarves moved there. We also know that Tolkein writes that the Silmarils would not be recovered until the earth was broken after Dagor Dagorath. But, that's an elf legend. I have no doubt that they believed this themselves, but it doesn't make it true. Anyway, I enjoyed the video, as always. Keep them coming.
geologist here, maybe, probably not. for it to work where it entered would have to be a place where magma was subducting, and, then the lonely mountain being a hotspot volcano would have risen with the gem within it. the problem is time, 5,000 years is too short a time scale for convection currents to take it that far, for the volcano to build up, then go at least dormant and then for the dwarves to find it, especially for such a huge distance, thats just not possible the biggest problem is finding the chasm, if its in Beleriand, than were f*cked, that leaves us 2 options, the only other volcanic places we know; mordor the lonley mountain itself if its in mordor, thats still too far away, but if he cast it in to a fledgling lonely mountain, which then grew around the simaril, thats the best we've got the problem is that TLM doesn't look like a volcano, its never described as such, the near constant eruptions it'd need to grow like that are never mentioned its a fun headcannon, but it doesn't work geologically, its not really supported by the text, and could i get a source on the simarils not being recovered until the earths broken ONLY being an elf legend, its been a few years since i read the similrilion, but i don't remember that
First - I have to say that I appreciate your thoughtful reply AND your expertise. That's really cool. I'm an architect, not a geologist. Still, it does seem to me that at least at one point in the history of Middle Earth, TLM was most likely a volcano. How else do you end up with one big mountain in what is otherwise a fairly flat plain? It's far from the other mountain ranges in the area.
@@paulbrickler to quote another commenter who explained it well "Geologically speaking, it is also possible to have a "lonely mountain" not being a volcano. The Sierra Nevada de Santa Marta in Colombia is an example of such mountain (>5700 m), with theories such as its root delamination explaining partly why it rose up so much. But as other mention, it's hard to understand geodynamics on a flat, who knows how thick, Arda." tldr non-volcanic lone mountains are rare, but do exist
@@bleddynwolf8463 Fair enough, I will bow to your expertise in this area. Thank you for being thoughtful and informative. I appreciate it.
@@paulbrickler no probs mate, if you ever feel like getting into geography, go for it, its a really interesting subject, with a surprisingly large amount still to learn
My theory is simple: Many were enamored of the works of Feanor. He had apprentices, and certainly, others would have attempted to make their own. Just as the rings were copied, so were the Silmarils. The Arkenstone is one of those copies or even possibly a prototype, and near enough that it too was affected by Feanor's oath. When crafted into its final form by the dwarves, they fell under its sway. Quite possibly placed by Aule as a lesson and warning to his children. In this case they found a pretty rock. But elsewhere they were not so lucky. Imagine if the Arkenstone had been embedded in Smaug and not still in the horde.
You discuss what the Arkenstone isn't at great length, but you left out any opinion about what it might be. I feel like a part 2 to this video is something that should be considered. I am very interested in hearing your theories on it.
I haven't even thought about the connection between these two....great video!!!
maybe it was like some unknown "silmaril" of aulë, created at the founding of arda, and hidden as a present for his children? it certainly has a lot of parallels to a silmaril, including a propensity to cause those associated with it to swear terrible oaths to their doom.
Aulë doesn’t have the skill to make a Silmaril. No one but Feänor did.
@@MiningForPies that's why i put quotes around it.
Theoretically, the Silmaril could be surrounded by a kind of cristal. This could explain why it didn't burn anyone. However, it's just my theory.
So interesting & the connection is beautiful *TY Nerd of the Rings*
I've always thought this was what the Arkenstone was. It's just to uncanny to not be a Silmaril!
Wow! I never thaught about that however NOTR maybe the though it is not a Silmaril because it is indestructible it is possible that the Silmaril of Maedhros came to the lonely mountain in the reshaping of the world after the destruction of Numenor. Thank you so much and keep up your amazing work!
Great Video! :) As for other mysteries: I've always wondered who the dead king at the shut gate in Dunharrow is, whose fingers are clawed into the door. As far as I remember, Aragorn, Gimli and Legolas ride past him, and that's the only mention of him. I've always wondered whether it was a previous King of Gondor, who lost his way, or perhaps someone who thought he was related to Isildur, but was not.
If I remember correctly it was the son of a king of Rohan
@@theslugboiii5969 Where did you get that information?
@@TreburSteelnervs it’s in the appendixes somewhere I think
Great video as always!
Thank you for recognising the importance of a mystery in a good story. It's like a magic trick, it fascinates you when you don't know how it works. But as soon as the secret is revealed it loses weight. Unless you are a master at continuing the mystery without giving too much away. A.K.A Tolkien.
My working theory is that the Arkenstone is one of the gems put in the world by Aulë. Maybe he put 7 jewels in some 7 big mountains of 7 clans of the dwarves, but Arkenstone seems to be special. So, my best guess is that it's unique, and he put that in there to serve a greater purpose in uniting the dwarves in times of need. The Lonely Mountain stands out from all other mountains, because it feels artificial. Mountains aren't naturally lonely, they are grouped in mountain ranges. So the Lonely Mountain feels to me like being a protective crust for the Arkenstone, and Aulë knew only dwarves would eventually find it.
Could you do a video on how gollum lived for so long without the one ring, while bilbo aged after he gave the ring to frodo
I believe Bilbo didn't start drastically aging until the ring was destroyed. He did age some in Rivendale but was not as frail as on his way to the west. Remember he spends at least a year in Rivendale before the Council of Elrond.
In the books, he doesn't start aging like that until the Ring is destroyed
I'm learn so much more about Lotr here. I love your work!
I am o happy you made this video. I have been watching the extended videos this week and have a far deeper appreciation for them. They’re no longer the gateway drug to LOTR, they are powerful in their own right.
Considering what the silmarils are, I can't imagine Thranduil not being able to recognize one if the saw one. In this universe, it's not as rare to either glow or glow with light. Swords made by elves being a good example.
I've always wondered about that stone. I would also LOVE a breakdown of Goldberry!!
The entwife.
I love this channel and everything you’ve covered; if I could put my request in I was wondering if you would please make a video about the chapters on time travel in The Lost Road? Maybe cover theories based on other works of Tolkien about where the story would’ve gone if he had finished it? I hope you consider it, thank you and keep up the great work 😊
Loved this theory video! It’s such a fun topic to debate and talk about. The what if’s are boundless.
hmmm Makes me wondering, Is all named mountain have a Heart of mountain like Arkenstone but maybe with lesser light?
If Tolkien says the Arkonstone is not a Simirils.. Is good enough for me. 😄
Thanks for another great video! Always enjoyable
When you look at the stories that have been inspired by Tolkein's work, the fact that so many different fantasy worlds in literature and pop culture are inspired by Tolkein just shows how impactful his books really are. For instance, Warhammer fantasy, Game of Thrones, and The Elder Scrolls all include similar stories to that of Tolkein with their own spin on it. For instance, there is something similar in the Elder Scrolls series where their version of Dwarves (essentially elves which preside inside mountain halls) find inside the red mountain the heart of Lorkan. A gem which is described in the same way as the Arkenstone from the Hobbit. However, this gem is the heart of a God that was cast into the mortal realm by the other gods. In that story the Red Mountain was (at the time of the dwarves) an active volcano.
I know this never happened in the books but I was always curious what would have happened if Thorin saw Bilbo with the One Ring. Would it have taken over the Arkenstone as the thing he desired?
Bilbo showed all the dwarves his ring after their ordeal with the spiders. In LotR there's a mention that everyone in Erebor and Dale know about the ring, which is how Gollum found out how to find Bilbo in the shire (he overheard people discussing it).
I suppose I am not a sufficiently deep LOTR geek, as I had not even thought of this possible linkage. To me, it was all about the arkenstone having been shaped that immediately made it impossible to be an silmaril. Granted, as you have said, the idea is fantastic. Others may have noted this, but within the past 20 years of volcanology (science of volcanoes), scientists have realized that some of the magma within an erupting volcanoes comes from the seabed. This discovery happened long after Tolkien could have used this as part of his theories, but it is another example of how the realism in Tolkien’s world continues to help us reconsider what could have been in his massively immersive world.
Awesome Video, wonderful work!! Thank you good Sir!!!
It is the most similar object to a Silmaril in The Middle Heart, It's a really good theory that Thranduil would have fight the Dwarves to take possession of it ... not caring about fight losses vs the dwarves. Silvan Elves have never seen a Silmaril before, so they are expendable for Thranduil and the purpose of reclaiming the Arkenstone. :)
I'd love for you to cover the theory on Earnil being wounded by a morgul blade and turning into a lesser-wraith in the form of Gothmog during the battle of the Pelennor, who was the Lieutenant of Minas Morgul. This theory is very popular among players of LOTRO and I'd love to hear your thoughts on it!
can you tell me what happens in LOTRO that people think that way?
@@6666Imperator Sorry for the late reply, but in short, the in game storyline features this theory, as a corrupted Earnur is one of the main villains.
@@NOIDEAIWILLJUSTUSEHAILEYIGUESS ah I see. Thanks for the reply :) the game is not considered canon though right? Or rather how much involvement is there from the Tolkiens in terms of these story parts?
@@6666Imperator Tolkien estate was involved in the game, but the devs can’t go against established canon. They do take creative liberties on expanding the lore. It takes the form as things such as Morgul blades turning people into lesser wraiths more often in these works, and Morgul sorcery being a “religion” practiced by followers of Sauron to gain powers and many more.
@@NOIDEAIWILLJUSTUSEHAILEYIGUESS ah I see. Thanks! :)
I always liked to think that the silmaril had become incased in a crystalline material as it lay within the earth and so thats why mortal hands could touch it without being burnt and why the dwarves could fashion it into a gem because the actual silmaril was hiding within so therefore no one actually touched it. This also means that the silmaril still would have remained hidden until the end of the world as the silmaril was still hidden within the transparent crystal of the arkenstone without anyone knowing what it truly was, with it eventually being allowed to lay with thorin within the lonely mountain never to be seen again. Just my personal ideas about the arkenstone being a silmaril so feel free to disagree or to poke holes in it
I like it
That was exactly what I thought! And I still hold to it!
Long live Debbie! May she never fail to patronize your wonderful channel!
So glad I’m not the only person who considered this. My idea was that ignorance protected those who found the Arkenstone; that Feanor’s curse would not be brought to life because nobody understood what they had, that nobody was actually pursuing the power of the Simarils but instead came to it by chance without knowing.
I want it to be a Silmaril SO BAD but it's not 😭
Theory suggestion! Dragons appear especially after Melkor's capture of the Silmarils. According to this, could there be a relationship between the Silmarils and dragons in the context of the creation process?
Omg 😳 I never tried to make that connection between the two! 🤔 Good job! 👍🏿
Been waiting a long time for this one
You know what? What if an Arkenstone was one of the materials Fëanor used to craft the Silmarils?
The Sillmaril could have changed, being sunk in lava for thousands of years, or magically with sacrifice and sorrow of Maedhros. And no orc or evil person touched the Arken Stone, so it still could be.
Good analysis. Keep it up!
That was really interesting! I'd love a video where you just talk about some of the mysteries you mention
In the MERP RPG system done by Ironcrown, they made the Arkenstone a fragment of one of the two lamps after Melkor shattered them. While it isn't cannon, I’ve always loved that take on it, as it brings a piece of middle earths very earliest history into the third age.
Next episode - Is Tom Bombadil a silmaril?
😂
Inject this Dwarven content right into my veins! Keep up the great work, brother!
The theory of the Arkenstone being a Silmaril falls apart the moment you actually move into the lore and look past its appearance. Also I think Gandalf would've recognized one of the Silmarils, being an ancient Maiar and most likely quite familiar with their history and appearance. Thranduil, while not as old as Gandalf, would most likely have recognized it as well, being an elf born when the Silmarils were already created, but well known amongst the elves. Both would've absolutely flipped if Bilbo had just handed them a Silmaril. Although he wouldn't have been able to carry the Silmaril, being mortal and all that. Gandalf and Thranduil? Very much so.