Esports Will DESTROY Fighting Games | Dead Or Alive 4 Review
Esports Will DESTROY Fighting Games | Dead Or Alive 4 Review. There is a lot of talk right now about how much the fighting game genre is "thriving" because if you look at peak metrics like Evo tournament entrants and sponsorship prize money, things have never been better, right? But the metric that no one seems to want to look at is the thinning out of the fighting game genre as a whole. Sure Tekken, Guilty Gear, and Street Fighter are doing well, but what has happened to the once densely populated fighting game landscape? What has happened to once extremely popular series like King Of Fighters, Dead or Alive, Soul Caliber, Virtua Fighter, and many more? They've all withered away.
The reason for this, as I'll explore in the video, is because the fighting game genre actually grew and prospered under the arcade business model, but now that the arcade business model is dead, the genre has been orphaned and adopted by a new step daddy -- esports. And while I think competitive fighting games are really cool and I enjoy watching tournaments more than most, I think it's also important to discuss what the ramifications of following the esports model of game design will mean for the majority of the genre, extinction. I'll explain why this is in further detail in the video, but one really interesting game that is often overlooked is the peak of the arcade era game design, Dead or Alive 4. These days most "serious" fighting game players treat DOA, even the classic entries, as basically a joke because the way these games are designed does not fit neatly into the esports model of game design and balance (fox only, final destination).
But as a piece of video game design, not as an esports platform, Dead or Alive 4, created by Team Ninja, is doing A LOT right that other modern fighting games could certainly learn from (Strong Enemy AI, Fully Features Modes) especially fighting games that have no hope of being major esports to begin with cough Dead or Alive 6.
If you want to check out Dead or Alive 4, which I highly recommend, you can get it for basically nothing on the Xbox 360 with the physical disc. But if you want a more convient way to play the game, the Xbox 1 version runs really well and you can access the online leaderboards without Xbox Live which is fantastic. Then on PC there is no Steam version (and probably never will be), but you can play it via Xenia Canary with some graphics and audio glitches that I expect will be sorted out in the near future.
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00:00 The Dangers of the Esports Model (Winner Takes All)
06:27 Dead or Alive 4 Reduces TURNS and Increases INTERACTION
11:45 Gameplay "Depth" Is Over-rated and Misunderstood. PACE Matters.
15:10 Esports is Shortening the New Game Lifespan and Killing Longevity.
21:30 The Timeless Visuals of Dead or Alive 4 Still Hold Up
26:30 THE GEM of Dead or Alive 4 - Difficulty and MODES
31:00 What Makes Single Player Content GOOD (Hint: It's Not RPG Mechanics)
#esports, #deadoralive, #tekken8
DOA 4 is not celebrated enough.
Great game
Man, I just picked it up this week. Pretty good so far. I missed the DOA series.
Damn I never knew how complex it is. Sounds like a great game.
Its good, but DOA2 & 3 are better.
It better be since a Female spartan is in the game.
I swear years of propaganda against DOA has made me forget that the DOA 2-4 era was a time where the games were accepted and considered great by the mainstream. Feels like today a lot of people forget they were actually good games and not just for show. Easy to forget just how ahead of the curve DOA was when it came to fighting game presentation. Tekken 4 was the only Tekken game that even attempted to match what DOA was doing back then. Gonna have to start picking them back up. They really did have an appeal that is completely lost on modern fighting games as much as they have come along in other areas.
Modern 2D anime fighters kick ass though. Especially UNI2.
Exactly my dude, it's really a bummer how re-written the history of DOA has become in general conversation. For example, that video I highlighted that talked about how bizarre DOA was for inventing breast physics, forgets to mention that immediately after DOA created breast physics all the other major fighting games did the same and it's not like there wasn't years of sprite art games, like KOF, that also had bouncing breast ha. Plus no one talks about how interesting or innovative the stage design and triangle hold system of DOA is. Both tekken and Virtua fighter now have hold mechanics in them as well, not as fully featured as doa's hold system, but the concept was influential for sure. There's so many great aspects to the series that gets glazed over now.
I want to say that, as a scrub, I have always appreciated DOA (with Soul Caliber as a close second) for its playability while knowing very little about the game. When Capcom style fighters were impenetrable to me and my friends, we greatly enjoyed DOA3, SC2, and SC3. We knew we weren't doing anything special, but our growth in the game felt like a natural extension of figuring out reversals and navigating 3D arenas, as opposed to sitting down with the combo list and memorizing specials. I have no idea which one is objectively better for high-level play, I just know what we had fun with.
i am content creators, funny enough, my first video was about doa, while i did not stay my contents around DOA ,(which i wished , i could ), but i always appreciated what DOA Channels do ,despite negative view around this series and other stuffs with no doubt, DOA Is my most fav fighting game, i accept, calling doa a "Chess" is wrong, but doa in one aspect, truely is a "Chess" you see, all fighting games, the moment that combo starts, the other player have to only watch, as its characters health bar drops, in this case, this plays like "Checker" while in doa, you disrupt the combo, the game allow you the chance to do that, like "Chess"(add to that, doa is basically a mind game) i really agree, doa is not good for esports, they can't tolerate a game that is "FUN"...DOA Is most fun fighting game i ever played...because it can't get boring ... but esport is looking for a fighting game with solid rules, which you can't disrupt combo, you can't use stage(but if Tekken 8 does that, definitely that's OK) , a game you can't use beatiful costumes left and right(ok, but if soul calibur does that, it is ok), ... but who should give shit to esport, as far as i am concern, doa is most fun fighting game, it never bored me, so as long as even i find, a one online player to play with me, then it will remain my greatest fighting game
I blame mostly on the weirdo gay rights activists that killed sex appeal games like DOA, Senran Kagura, etc. They recently messed with Stellar Blade. They'd probably nut all over the Cho Aniki series if they find out they exist.
So what you're saying is, DOA can survive whether the esports scene is dead or alive?
As long as Team Ninja remembers to make DOA7 a game FIRST, and a competitive sport SECOND.......then yep. Dead or alive, it'll be a good time. 😊
The beach volley ball spinoff and soft porn mini game collections will make sure that DOA wont need e sports :D
@@MrBroken030 lol, all fighting games have coomer bait, get real
Ha with proper game design I think so! If team ninja are able to make DOA 7 a game that is worth playing outside of some kind of esports model, then I think that would be a much more stable direction for the franchise in the future. Also fun pun :-)
Honestly, I think Doa doesn't need esports at all to survive. I mean, I can play endlessly DOA 5 LRjust to earn things, trophys etc. The only thing that misses in DOA is the rollback. A DOA 7 with rollback netcode would be great.
This makes me think of why the early Soul Calibur series did so damn well, specifically SCII and SCIII. Why? The replayability of these games were expansive with all their adventure modes, strategic gaming in these modes, the items to collect, the costumes, the customization. The theatre with every audio file on the character? Wicked. They had a plethora of experiences for the gamer, BEFORE online/esport usage!
Smash Bros kills it with side content too
On top of the most well designed 3D fighting system ever made.
It would be really uncommon if not difficult to make a bad 3rd game of the series. SC2 was just on another level in terms of game design and graphics.
Unfortunately we live in an era where companies have practically no reason to maintain games past their limited cycle. They'd rather just sell you the next sequel.
Yes and it's not just maintaining games after launch, which is nice, but more importantly building games to last in the first place. I think in the pre-esports era, devs really understood that having multiple entries into a series that are all self contained and full of long term content is a good idea, as you can sell both new and old versions of games to the same player base. Whereas now, under the esports model, there can be only 1 active game per series and so the devs don't want the older games to cause problems with the current games sales, so that is why the plug is pulled so quickly on current fighting games that all rely on online matches. Look at street fighter 4. It was THE esports fighting game for nearly a decade, and now absolutely no one plays it at all, and there really isn't a reason to.
To be fair, that's what gamers want.
ADHD modern gaming syndrome.... new toys loose there shine...
@@TheElectricUnderground By appealing to the "FGC community" the devs get at least SOME playerbase to then drop 95% of it in a month. I really doubt a lot of people would pick a fighting game for the story mode or any single player content, especially if we're talking brand new IP, not a sequel or a spin-off.
@@ViApp0 Sounds like a fighting game developers issue.
From whats said about him and how great Doa and Ninja Gaiden 1-2 are. I'm convinced Itagaki is a genuis.
"knows it's a video game" i miss that. Now everything is a movie or esport
That's what I miss as well. I think the reason retro games in general tend to be more fun is not always about nostalgia because, for example, recently I played bloody roar 2 for the first time and honestly had much more fun with it simply because the concept was way more fun. Video games nowadays feel like work and storefronts instead of a relaxing or fun time. it used to be about cool concepts, whereas today is what's the most lucrative formula.
All I remember from DOA4 was failing that crazy throw combo with Ryu.
Oh yeah ryu is top tier in doa 4 ha. One useful strategy on him is that you can sidestep around all his teleport attacks. :-) He s one of the strongest characters in the game though, itagaki made sure of that ha
Dark ages of fighting games is a false statement. Once the arcade scene died in 00s, game comps had to justify a purchase other than arcade mode. Thus we had rich content filled fighting games
yeah the "Dark Ages of Fighting Games" is such BS lol. That's some FGC revisionist history for sure. Basically the "dark ages" was the small window of time street fighter had a delay between games lol. Just goes to show how narrow of a view of the genre the whole esports scene has.
@@TheElectricUndergroundmore like the U.S. Dark age of 2d fighting game. As some amazing 2d games were still being made in jp at the time
After 1999, and no smash bros is party game, the fighting game genre slowly dropped. DOA4 was peak and series fell once DOA5 came with the horrible practices of DLCs
Video games need a bunch of modes to toy with outside of multiplayer. Fighting games are no different. It is kinda sad that we dont see much long term single player contents in fighting games.
Agreed
@@cartoonvideos5 this video also made me realize that we need single player content for combo people. I dont know how they can be satisfied outside of practice tools.
It's painful to see how much single player content in fighting games has regressed since the 2000s.
dukeofhmph6348 - ... even older. Remember Ehrgeiz?
soul calibur was always great for this, as was (is?) mortal kombat
I absolutely love the hold system of DOA. That's one of the unique things that drew me to it. In DOA, if you're predictable, you'll get blasted by someone that know the mechanics.
Dead or Alive 2 will probably always be my favorite. I first saw it on the Dreamcast, and it was probably the best looking game on that system. High detail models, 60fps in gameplay, amazing *plot*. Seeing that on Dreamcast was something to behold. I got to be wowed by the same game again when they brought Dead or Alive 2 Ultimate to the original Xbox. They remade most of the DOA2 assets in the DOA3 engine/style. It almost seems like a complete generational leap in terms of visuals. I still think DOA2U looks phenomenal today. It is very comparable to DO4, with the main difference coming from the HD resolution of the 360.
Oh i love DOA 2. It's a big fav of mine as well! You won't see me turning my nose up at DOA 2 ha, especially the Xbox OG remake of the game. If you haven't tried it out you definitely have to, it runs on the xbox 360 and 1x. I can see doa 2 being argued as the best of the series in that it basically set the whole template for how the games are played (DOA1 is a mess), but I think DOA4 just really effectively built off of 2's streinghts and improved them. But without 2 there could be no 4, that's for sure. Same with 3. Honestly the games just kept improving from 2-4. Then 5 was a bit of a step down, but still solid and 6 blows ha. I don't hate 6, but it's a big step down from everything other than doa1 ha.
Had literally the same experience bro! And I can't tell you the joy I got out of staying up all night on Survival and Tag to get every goddamn outfit they had And 2u is unmatched in unlockables
I loved ultimate, the sheer amount of constumes in that game. Can you imagine the amount it would equal to todays standards with mucrotransactions
I love watching competitive play, but I feel that eSports and the big cash prizes that go along with it really suck the enjoyment out of the experience. In any case, events like Evo can never hold up against the relaxed atmosphere of a local arcade tournament.
Yeah I love watching competitive events as well! Big time. But I think the balance has really started to shift where in the past the devs made games to be fun and engaging to play unto themselves, and then the competitive scene formed itself around the games naturally. Whereas now devs are trying to leverage the competitive scenes of the games for marketing, and so are now making games that aren't as fun to play unto themselves, but are much more so meant to be watched and spectated. So the design and balance of the games is less organic and interesting than it once was. For example the last few years of tekken 7 were SO BORING to watch versus the initial years of the scene where players were much more motivated to play characters that they enjoyed. At the end of T7 esports became a business and so the players just stuck to the same characters that were most likely to win.
One huge problem that DoA4 has with casual fighting game fans is that the arcade mode is hard as hell
I know it's relative, but I didn't find it hard. I had some friends who had difficulty with some fights, but they were fine once I explained blocking. I found it much easier than say SF4.
Yeah ha. i really respect that decision in terms of a game design move, because it does help push players to learn the game systems faster sooner. But I think the game def needed some quick and concise tutorial content to explain how the triangle system of the game works on a meta level. As soon as the player grasps that, the normal difficulty isn't too crazy.
Green Jello Kasumi is a hard boss to beat
Yeah I enjoyed the game but I can't recall ever beating a single arcade playthrough. I wanted to play as that female spartan so badly but that seems to be a impossibility for me :(
@@shawklan27she was very slow but by god if you hit your unlucky opponent it was GGs. I mained Helena but SPARTAN was solid and if you screwed up once against her it was like almost a 1-hit KO especially if she countered you
Funnily enough, THIS (snowballing) is what kept EVO small-scale for about the first 5-8 years. People really only coming out for Street Fighter and Marvel, for the most part; and *eventually* we managed to edge in Tekken Tag because it was different enough and still reasonably valid. It took FOUR ACTUAL EVERS to get to the degree of title diversity it has now, some series such as KoF and GG even took over ten years to get a "valid competitive presence." Sure, people would pop in to *play* the other games, but holding tournaments and prize pools for, what was then considered "minor league" games was beyond scope. This is why stuff like online fighting game tutorials took off, because we needed to invite more players and competition to "the level" to even facilitate the larger scene that FGs have become today; and it's by these lessons that we'll continue to be okay, until we're not.
Also, you want some MEAN enemy AI? Pop in Soul Calibur 3 and play World Tournament Mode. NAMCO did this, too; just not with Tekken so much.
@@TonyTheTGR Oh god, this mode was nightmare, as a child it really made me furious at times. Great memories !
I don't really have an opinion on DoA having not played a game since the Dreamcast era, but I do hate the general lack of 3D fighting games. There was a time when we had VF, Tekken, DoA, Zero Divide, Project Justice, Soul Calibur, and Street Fighter all around the same time. Now we've got what, 2 franchises? It's not great for the consumer.
Yeah the modern era is way worse than the so-called fighting game drought of the 2000s. During the 2000s, every single game you mentioned still got sequels. Only Street Fighter was dead during that era.
Don’t forget the 3D era of MK. As broken as they were, it was very appealing and enjoyable. Switching between fighting styles mid match was a neat concept. I wish they would attempt another 3D MK. I prefer 3D over 2D any day.
@@Cr1ms0nRav3n I actually did forget MK.
@@Cr1ms0nRav3n unfortunately NRS sucks now.
100% agree. It's golden age for 2D fighting games now no doubt, but it's time for VF, DOA, SC or Bloody Roar to shine again.
"This mechanics is not good for promoting the burrito restaurant sponsorship" >competitive scene dies
The thing I can't wrap my head around is the idea that DoA is somehow more casual than something like Tekken. Unbreakable combos are the most casual mechanic; the whole time you're doing a combo in Tekken you are literally just playing a single player QTE cutscene. DOA's hold system means that there's *always* an option for counterplay, but somehow not getting free turns is a "casual" mechanic just because it interferes with having a "gameplan" (i.e. plan to force the match into single player QTE mode as much as possible) I don't understand that thinking at all. The competitive scene isn't even about fighting at this point - it's just who can autistically memorize frame data well enough to guarantee their turns and *avoid* having to actually fight. I enjoy Tekken, but to me it feels more like rhythm game disguised as a fighting game. You can memorize which buttons to press and when because it's all prescriptive and non-dynamic. That makes it incredibly hard for new players to pick up and incredibly easy for veterans to dominate by default, even if their newbie opponent is a veteran of fighters in general. You don't learn how to fight in Tekken so much as you memorize matchups, much like memorizing DDR maps.
Man this post right here needs to be said in all corners of the FGC cause I've felt this way for quite some time.
As a lifelong tekken fan, this comment is so true
It's for this reason i've always said DOA is criminally underrated.
I agree with this so hard. I hate that every modern fighting game just boils down to fishing for your max damage combo. It's so boring to play and watch. I'm much more of a 2d player, so I can't say with authority that I prefer DOA's hold system, but I do like the spirit of it, because I vastly prefer older 2d games where the combo timing was duck-ass tight, oki required actual timing and game knowledge, and the game reset to neutral a hell of a lot more often. I'm salty because my preferred playstyle - mid-range poker/zoner - is basically nonexistent anymore because every modern game is designed around RUSHDOWN STEAMROLL COMBO COMBO COMBO.
One of these days I need to go through all the Itagaki interviews and find the one where he talks about how he hates memorization games. I know I heard him say this once, and I think it's a key component of his brilliance. If you think about it, east asian test taking culture has influenced Japanese arcade game design a lot. It makes sense that their games reward things they are historically good at, rote memorization, throwing man-hours at things, folding the steel and hammering it out 1000 times etc. Creative problem solving and natural talent is more of a European thing, unfortunately Europeans don't make good games lol.
This thing of designing fighting games with esports in mind, which was really prevalent throughout the 2010s, is maybe the most bizarre left turn I think I’ve seen a genre in video games take. Like, imagine if instead talking about their new focus on esport, these fighting games companies announced they were developing fighting games aimed specifically at a handful of users on the now closed SRK forums...because that’s essential the same thing. It’s like fighting game companies saw how big League of Legends was in like 2010/2011, and saw that League of Legends had an esports scene, and figured the reason League of Legends was so big was because League of Legends had an esports scene...as opposed to the large esports scene it had being something that grew out of it being a massive free-to-play game. Or they realized F2P was why it was big, didn’t want to take the chance of no upfront money, and just tried getting to the same place by way of esports. The thing I find so interesting about fighting games abandoning the casual market to chase esports money is that the most successful fighting games on consoles for like the last 24 years has been the Smash Bros series. A fighting game series so casual that for the first ten years of its existence most fighting game fans didn’t even consider it a fighting game. Even when the series was locked exclusively to the GameCube, the worst selling console of that generation, it still managed to outsell fighting games that were on both the PS2 and Xbox. Like if I was a fighting game developer and publisher back in the late 2000s, and I was seeing that the biggest fighting game on home consoles was locked to the worst selling system of the time, and was completely smocking all but one fighting game on the PS2, (which is still the best selling console ever) I’d have a rethink about how I was doing some things and how I’d be doing things going forward.
I'm so disappointed that DoA4 didn't get a 4k patch for the Series X. Wouldve been so beautiful looking
PS- you're on fire lately with your content! If only more content creators had the kind of integrity and true love of good gameplay as you, this industry would be in a better place. I was born in 82 so this era of gaming is infuriating, to see everyone cave to the woke mob. Your Stellar Blade video was very insightful and nuanced. It should be required viewing for gamers and developers alike right now. By any chhance, can you say how much or how little you're enjoying it? I want to get it if for no reason than to support a dev and publisher who's not afraid to show sexy females, but don't know if the combat system is great enough to sustain me. If you say "yes" I'm ready to hit purchase! At first I thought this would be more character action than Souls but after playing the demo it kinda felt like Souls in a character action skin. I love Souls but I'm getting sick of wait, parry in every action game lately. Looking forward to your review!
@@mgxzazfbyjuchrisclarkvpz236 just buy doa4 if you want bewbies, its an awesome game too.
DOA is still the coolest fighting game I've ever played. DOA3 made me realize how much I love co-op fighting games.
A common misconception about the hindenburg is that it's just the hydrogen that made it burn, but it was actually a combination of the hydrogen and the fact the coating they used in the enclosure was a mixture of aluminium, a small amout of silver, and a bunch of other stuff, wich meant that as soon as it caught fire, the coating turned into termite-like substance, exellerating the burning process vastly and making it a way more explosive burn
But the analogy mark used might still make sense, as financial crashes and bubbles in industries usually have multiple triggers or circumstances that make it crash
Actually, the Hindenburg was sabotaged in such a way that it appeared far more dangerous than it was.
I'm developing a fighting game myself and I do absolutely agree with a lot of your points, that fighting games should offer fun value as games first and not offload their entire value onto the competitive scene. Competition is a component of a game's success, but shouldn't be its entire point. Where I sort of disagree is that a narrative-focused single player mode is impossible or undesirable to do in a fighting game. I think many early 3D fighters from the Dreamcast and PS1 era offered lots of great single player content that offered plenty of engagement and replay value. Soulcalibur 1 had a great mission battle mode where you travelled around a world map fulfilling fighting game battles with unique conditions, and Tobal No. 1 and No. 2 had a dungeon quest mode where you travelled into dungeons to fight monsters that you could capture like pokemon and unlock for use in versus mode, giving the game a gigantic roster of enemies with silly attacks to choose from. I cherish these kinds of cute experimental ideas, and I think they can be expanded upon a little bit to make a really interesting single player narrative with compelling content and replayability like a lot of other single player focused games I think SF6 World Tour mode did have a few good ideas even if they were half-baked and the actual gameplay wasn't playtested very well. The potential exists for good, compelling gameplay design in a narrative focused SP mode and I think it's just a code waiting to be cracked.
I'm not a fighting game guy but I remember briefly playing DOA4 waaaay back when it was actually talked about and thinking it was really neat. It was such a smooth game and I remember it just offering a lot that less initiated could enjoy without a compromise on it's core. I feel like if I ever wanted to play fighters again, I'd try what I could to grab that over others. It also has Ryu Hayabusa. And a Spartan.
I always wished more fighting games would have something like DOA’s hold system or just ways to interrupt a long combo string. Some try but fighting games still struggle with this imo.
Tekken 4's position change mechanic with wall mechanics was SO unique and sorely missed in EVERY other Tekken entry. Fighting game design is too simplified now. King has 1 button chainthrow links now and "chicken" counters were completely removed..... it's pathetic as all hell. Then there's all the payshops, battlepasses, dripfeeding. I still like KoF15 and DNF Duel. Most have completely sold tf out.
Killer Instinct's combo breakers are basically the same as holds.
Combo breakers were a very good idea, but since they only worked during certain phases of a combo (that IIRC weren't strictly required), I wonder if the meta of high-level play would end up focusing around mostly unbreakable ones...? However, I do think there is more complexity and yomi there than having a single hold technique. Regardless, minimizing the amount of time one player spend completely trapped inside a combo is a valuable thing, since that period turns what is supposed to be a two-player game into a functionally single-player experience of purely optimizing damage output without meaningful interaction with the opponent's playstyle. Obviously that damage itself can be a justified punish, but it should be delivered in a relatively compressed way if there is no counterplay after the first hit connects.
yes me too! Well part of the reason why the hold system is so unique to DOA is because the system is actually a lot more complex and tricky to get to feel right than anyone wants to admit ha. There's a lot of balancing with move properties and hitstun and stacking stun that needs to happen, so I don't think other developers really have the ability to replicate it's feel.
I don't think people in other games will like it though. 3rd strike style situation but with a more niche game/franchise. Tekken 8 does have that with heat but the mixups are disgusting in that game so getting momentum is quite tricky.
Budgets mattering more than "console generations" is so obvious but people don't discuss things this way because they're only focusing on the bs cash grab AAA games that are designed to maximize profits instead of delivering quality interesting games. Some people claim to care about games but are content to stick with "decent enough" games and some supposed "passionate gamers" do the rotation cycle you mentioned of rushing game in game out all year then asking themselves why do they get burnout and why "gaming is no longer worth it/fun". DOA is great...and there's no way to play it unless you've got the least popular console 2 "generations" in a row lol the industry truly is something.
I'm pretty much entirely checked out of modern fighting games at this point and nowadays most of the fun I have is playing old stuff like Karnov's Revenge, Breakers, Vampire Savior, and Samurai Shodown with friends. I miss the variety of fighting games we used to get compared to now.
exactly Nerffie, because of the esports model all fighting games now are trying to play and feel like eachother, so they can pull from eachother's player bases, which is just accelerating the player snowballing effect more and more. I think by the end the esports model will basically only be able to support 1 or 2 fighting games at most, we are really starting to see that with EVO line ups actually. Where there are like 2 games at evo with big player bases (Street Fighter and Tekken) and every other game is just happy to be there ha. We don't even see other 3D fighters there anymore, not even at evo japan.
@@TheElectricUnderground I think the most blatant example is Guilty Gear Strive, which is trying to pull the Street Fighter crowd not only in terms of gameplay, but also character design. Street Fighter and Capcom character design always emphasized powerful physiques and musculature and the Strive character designs tilt far into that direction. It's why Ky and Sol look uber jacked compared to how they used to be. GG is no longer playing into the qualities that set it apart from its contemporaries and it's disappointing even if I was never a big fan of it.
Mkay,go have fun in the corner there grandpa 😂
33:10 Goodness, I never noticed the detail where if Ryu izuna drops you through trees, leaves will actually falls. This obsessive attention to detail (by today's standard) is one of many reasons why I love Dead or Alive. I remember you said you could barely find footage of Dead or Alive 4's Online, and chances are, you could find footage of 1 v 1, but you could do Tag, Team Battle and even Survival against other players. There's a lot other fighting games could learn from Dead or Alive if they weren't busy playing double standards.
most of the leaves interacted with actions in doa games, they loved detail and immersion.
It helps that Itagaki was a prodigy/understudy of Yu Suzuki himself.
Itsgaki never worked for Sega did he?
@@magicjohnson3121 No. However he did go to Mr. Suzuki for advice and help with the creation of the first DOA game since he (Itagaki) never made one. They've been good friends since, learning alot from one another.
No. His relationship with Yu Suzuki was never that deep. The extent of his relationship with Yu Suzuki was a formal lunch he had with him. That's it. Other than that, he just happened to use the Sega Model 2 to make the first game.
@@Awesmic1 I did answer this question did I not? Looks like KZhead must have blocked it. No, however Itagaki did go to Suzuki for aide/advice on making DOA due to him (Itagaki) not knowing how to build a fighter, let alone a 3D one. They've been good friends ever since, helping one another bouncing ideas and whatnot.
@@Awesmic1 "Never that deep" is an understatement considering the amount of influence Suzuki has had on Itagaki and in turn Suzuki has had on him. Not to mention photographic evidence of the two men meeting besides that one formal lunch you mentioned.
Soulcalibur III and Tekken 5 are considered the best in each series, but the real kicker with those titles is they are horribly unbalanced and broken; it's the single player content that everyone remembers fondly.
The in game leaderboard is something I'd like to see much more of in single player content across every genre. There's a few games that maintain this relic from the arcades, but I want to see more of that outside of just community run speed runs.
Urban Reign is very similar to this as well, very simple button inputs, no infinite combo strings, planning ahead won't work since the AI will find some crazy way to counter you but it's a ton of fun because it's constant back and forth, plus the counter system is easy to utilize on a basic level but difficult to master on an advanced level, so you can do all the crazy counters as a casual but as an expert you can do those counters reliably. On top of that though you also get a huge emphasis on crowd control and that brings an extra layer of fun to the table. So the Tekken devs have proven that they too can make a game in the same vein as DOA 4.
As a big fan of the series, the whiplash going from DOA2U/DOA3/DOA4 to DOA5/DOA6 cannot be understated enough. DOA5LR ended up being decent, but you can tell the spirit of the series died after 4 just by looking at the stages. Each one used to have some interesting gimmick or visual feature that made it special (reflective water, deforming sand/snow, falling coconuts, breakable tiles on the floor, getting thrown off bridges, firework displays, etc.), and most had distinctive sizes or shapes that felt like the next evolution of VF3's design. It went hand-in-hand with Ninja Gaiden's emphasis on environmental integration compared to other character action games at the time. Contrast all that to DOA5's drab, featureless arenas, the nosedive in OST quality, and the nightmare of DLC monetization that disregarded the generosity you'd find from earlier entries in terms of unlockables. Competitive balance or not, the Xbox-era games are just a much better time.
There are 2 beach stages, one of them has falling coconuts lol. The other is is at night with fireworks. And there's a stage that's on a raft that starts to move if you keep slamming someone enough time on the sides. Yes there's still stage transitions. Yeah the OST sucks, but it lets you change the stages music from any of the other past DOA games music, stage or character oriented. Not all of the music is there, they only put 3 tracks from DOA 4. And yeah the DLC sucks completely.
There's no reflective water, no deforming snow/sand. (there's no snow at all) there's the obligatory cold stage but no snow. There's no bridges, no breakable tiles on the floor, (there's 2 stages with breakable floors) but there are breakable objects in different stages. There's distinctive shapes/sizes for most of the stages
@@thirdsupernova True! Though it's still sad the better things in DOA5/6 were scraps they brought back from older games, like soundtracks and a few stages. (I do really like Momiji's theme, though.) The beach stuff is a perfect example of what I was saying: In DOA3 and DOA2U, they went the extra effort to show your footsteps deforming the sand in their beach stages. It's extremely subtle compared to the snow stages, but it's just flat geometry everywhere in DOA5/DOA6 because priorities shifted to a new engine. DOA5 legit had a few great stages, like Home and Sanctuary (which felt straight out of Dead Fantasy), but it definitely was the start of a new direction for the series.
@@bransomething Yeah, when I first played DOA2U. On Xbox One (before it got messed up) and I saw the beach stage I said wow! And then I noticed the sand and was like WOAH!
I've felt and said this for years. It's crazy how well from 2-4 and even dimensions are made. DOA def was one of those games that used to be "This established character with this beautiful stage with this banger theme TIED TO THEM to further define said character before u even look up their lore" type of games.
eSports DESTROYED Overwatch, which was so "balanced" around "Overwatch League" Blizzard felt forced to turn it into F2P "Overwatch 2" to keep making Money.
Im sure its making them bank Because tons of people still play it But i personally lost interest
Destroyed Halo in a similar way. Though other factors were at play there too, such as MS forcing CrossPlay onto the console audience. MS is pretty much destroying console gaming as we know it this generation.
.... Siege has fallen off a cliff 👎👎
@@dj_koen1265 I still play Overwatch "2" since I main some characters as Moira, Sigma, Reinhardt and Pharah, but it can be miserable to play the game, especially as Tank. And I never watched Overwatch League, all I did was leave my tab open at the livestreams to earn OWL tokens to unlock skins ("Wicked Moira" is my favorite of all).
Blizzard esports fell off a cliff. There's hardly any money in it for anyone other than Blizzard. They should be doing what Riot is doing.
This is precisely why I hate the increasing focus on competitive e-sports with Smash Bros. The game has all of these cool elements in it such as environmental hazards, single player content, etc. that seem to have been de-emphasized a bit since Brawl back on the Wii.
Agreed. I'm pretty sure that I have put more hours into just Subspace Emissary and Smash Run each than my entire play time with Ultimate. And even there I reckon that a fifth of my play time is with the rather excellent stage builder.
@@dukeofhmph6348Subspace is so fun
smash bros is a really interesting example because Nintendo have been pretty wise in being very careful with how they balance the whole esports external side of game design with the internal design of the their games -- i believe they still have lots of modes and stuff like that. BUT the huge problem with the smash franchise is that Nintendo took their response to melee in exactly the wrong way. Instead of embracing the gameplay aspects of melee that make it awesome (it's high intensity and technical movement) and building it into their future games in the series, they did the exact opposite of nuking all the cool technical elements of melee to make sure their newer games remain as casual as possible. That's not a direction I like to see either ha. I wish what Nintendo would have done is formalize the strong elements of Melee's game design and then bring it into it's sequel. Like imagine if brawl had melee's combat system, but with strong AI that knows how to fight well and then cool scoring modes and stuff like that. Also melee ironically has lots of cool modes like this, like survival mode and endless mode and special melee ha. Melee is actually a really content rich game, it's just people tend to forget about that because of it's competitive scene.
I also find the story and narrative of Dead or Alive games up to 4 to be way better than 5, 6 and Dimensions. IIRC, Ryu Hayabusa was implied to have killed Victor Donovan at the end of DOA4 and Dimensions retconned that. DOATEC was destroyed by Helena in her emotive DOA4 ending until it wasn't. As much as I like Dimensions for playing like the older games, it paved the way for 5 and 6 lore-wise, when Itagaki clearly meant for DOA4 to be the end of the DOATEC and the story arc that started with DOA1. Another thing I liked in DOA4 and older entries is that the story wasn't as heavy and didn't try to be as descriptive as later games, as seen with DOA4 endings, which were pretty good, but weren't dialogue-heavy. Dimensions plays better than DOA5 and DOA6, IMO, and I also like its visual style better than the newer games, but it destroyed the original lore of the series in favor of what followed (like Donovan lusting for Helena's mother when it was implied that he was the one that caused her to be killed in the first place). 5 and 6 were such disappointments for me with the approach they took in story, gameplay and paid content despite 5 getting VF characters and Mai from KOF. You're right, DOA4 is the apex of the series and should be recognized as such and as one of the best 3D fighting games. eSports have been a net negative for the fun of video games.
The incentive to esportsify fighting games partly comes from the players. With the rise of the Internet and social media, people are far more concerned about "balance". They want the mechanics to conform to some vague idea of fairness, so their losses don't feel as bad. Which us another issue. People don't want to play fighting games for fun. Everyone feels like they need to play competitively, to justify their playing at all.
Even caaually, you don't want busted shit. Or lousy characters. Take MK9 for example. Lets say one person really likes Jade, and the other picks Kenshi. Yeah, not fuckin fun.
Yea Digital Foundry is too big for it's own good atm. It was fine when they were smaller and just compared performance and technology. But now you hear a lot of disappointment when a game does not use advanced RT, and other taxing features. Then when it does use these features, they complain about image quality and performance. You can't win with them. I love the look of Stellar Blade, and since it's not pushing super advanced rendering, it actually runs well, and looks very sharp. I wish Sega would release the Arcade or PS2 version of VF4 on PC. Loved that game. The stages, the music, the feel of fighting. Could play it for hours with no end in sight. Dunno if VF5 is a better game than 4, but 4 is just my jam. It's up there with Soul Calibur 2 and DOA 4, as some of my favorite 3D fighting games.
I don’t understand how people think a game looks bad without ray tracing. When I first saw FF7R, I thought; “if graphics stop advancing after this point I’m satisfied.” Games like InFAMOUS: Second Son and other PS4 games like Days Gone look absolutely stunning, but it’s not enough for these people. They don’t want to play games, they want to have pretty screenshots. And these graphical improvements are so minor now that it’s not even nitpicking. Ray Tracing is seriously the most overrated and unnecessary addition to gaming. I’d rather have better performance, smoother gameplay, deeper mechanics, and tighter animations work.
I mean if 3D fighters chose to become popular for being the bleeding edge of graphics in the past, then they also have to suffer the legacy consequences of it. It should have been expected. I personally prefer VF5 FS/US, just because the combo system feels more straight forward to understand with its own spin of Tekken's bound system. I also like Eileen.
Honestly this is the sort of analysis I wish games journalists would do. You are obviously extremely passionate about games and whether I agree or not I can't doubt you put a lot of thought and effort into this. It is a shame that you aren't head editor at Kotaku and instead we get nonsense about stellar blade ass being sexist.
I will say though, one thing I think hurt DoA more than a lot of people realize is Team Ninja abandoning arcade development with 3. Arcades weren't as big as they were in the past but they were still alive, at least in Japan, and without that the series doesn't have as strong of a legacy competitive playerbase that other contemporary fighters do.
This was a match made in heaven, the Xbox 360 DOA4 combo🥰. The online experience is the best and most memorable in a fighting game I ever had. Note, I was using dial up internet back then. The avatar lobby system you see in SF6, DOA4 did it first and better. Black Mamba, Perfect Legend, Master, Swoozie, Kasumi Chan, Vanessa, Offbeat_Ninja ect...World Cyber Games, CGS?... yes DOA 4 was the biggest eSports fighting game with the biggest prize pools at the time. There was no Twitch, and KZhead was still a baby. I watched All of this on DirecTV, I couldn't believe my eyes. 🎮DOA4 can easily be the Smash Melee of the series, but only a strong community can pull off such a feat. #DOA4EVER
Dead or Alive 2-4 were pretty great casual fighting game series. Like I love fighting games, and I’ve got a couple friends that love fighting games like do, but most everyone I know that started with Street Fighter 2 and were looking forward to the next Virtua Fighter game seemed to just completely fall off fighting games after Marvel vs Capcom 2 came out in 2000 and the arcade cabinets started to disappear from being everywhere. But Dead or Alive games on Xbox and 360 where the kind of thing you could just throw on at some party, or when your at someone’s place after school with a handful of girls and guys that don’t play fighting games at all and have fun with it. Not only because they were simple, but also the spectacle of them. There’s stuff DoA does with stages, like slightly uneven ground that you’ll just never see in a big 3D fighting game now because it isn’t balanced...but DoA did it because it looks cool and was fun. DoA was one of those fighting series you could just throw on with random people and those people would have a good time with it. Beside maybe Soulcalibur 2, (and Marvel vs Capcom 2 and 3) those 2000s era DoA games were some of the last bunch of fighting game that still fell into the traditional paradigm of a fighting game that casual audience seem to really enjoy (once you got it in front of them) as much as stuff like Power Stones, Smash Bros., and AKI wrestling games and Fight for NY.
I'm glad you brought up how "casual" DoA4 is. Almost none of my close friends like playing Fighting games as much as I do. We'll get a few matches in games in to appease me, but then people tap out cause it's too much mental strain and stressful for them. Or at least that's what people feel like, despite them moving on to much more intense games like GTFO right after 😅 But I've never had anyone complain about or shy away from playing DoA4, at least after the initial dive. The gameplay just speaks for itself. It's fun in a way that can just be picked up and understood, once someone wraps their head around "I can Hold at literally any time". I think that's the real key there- Hold gives players an unparalleled amount of interactivity with the game, which Fighting games are notoriously bad at. You usually get one Burst chance or maybe some DI when you're in hitstun, and that's it, if anything. Once you're in a combo, you wait until you can move again. DoA4? You can not only earn the right to move again, but you can do it while stylishly punishing the attacker. And it feels INCREDIBLE, even to a random casual just guessing. No special attacks to worry about, or Burst gauges, or status effects or super armor or anything. Yes, I personally love all of those, but DoA4 doesn't need them. It gives you three attacking options (Throws, Punches, Kicks), three defensive (Block, Hold, movement), a stage for some hazards to reward spatial awareness.... and that's it. Two-to-four people duking it in constant interactions that engage even newbies on fundamental levels. Oh yeah- Tag team for four players too. Including the ability to screw over your own partner's flow. It's fantastic, and makes for a great party format.
Fantastic video! Just wanted to add on your point about DO4 being polished not only as an online competitive game but as a completed product with single player in mind. This is something I've been noticing so much and its great that others have as well. During the 6th and 7th gen consoles fighters were still made with this in mind and it was awesome. So many games in the ps2 library can simply be played on their own merit because there's great content in them. Soul Calibur 2 and 3 always stick out during that era but whether it was Tekken, DOA, SC etc. etc. they were all based on this arcade design and then added on to make them a fun experience. Yes they weren't always the best balanced games but damn were they fun. I'd trade what we have now for what was back then in an instant. Don't se why we can't have both though! It's funny that a lot of those games in those eras are not liked by the competitive crowd which speaks to where the genre went in 09 with SF4. It still had a bit of that methodology like the above but we know where it all ended up.
Harada will only greenlight soulcalibur VII once he needs more assets to stuff into the Tekken 8 battle passes
I have played at least 1000 hours of DOA4 online the year it released. The absolutely amazing thing DOA4 has is that if someone is doing the same thing to you twice, you can punish it instantly without any knowledge whatsoever. Strangely, most memories I have from playing DOA4 are people insulting me because I was holding everything, like I was in their head or something, and I was accused of cheating probably a thousand times. But your video made me realize something : in that game I was at the highest online rank, but I barely spent any time in training mode (just small stuff like checking the move list from time to time), and I didn't know any frame data (I didn't even know the concept of frame data xD). This is literally impossible in any other fighting game, and the game is still very deep, that's an aspect which is very underestimated. I believe many other half-serious players like me would prefer this over what we have in games like Tekken where there is just so much factual knowledge which is totally impossible to learn in real matches.
I would say that the most important factor for fighting game eSports is the ease of entry. You don't need a team, a sponsor, manager, etc. Why isn't there new fighting games from companies? Riot being the only one is worrisome but let's be honest there's no developers available to create a good fighting game. It's going to suck. Mortal Kombat 1 is probably the first sign of what's to come and it's scary. There's a lot.of problems but the positive stuff is holding it as much as it can.
And 2XKO is still a whole year away from now
I'm glad to see DoA get some love for its gameplay. It's just so flowing and expressive with the way that the characters move between well telegraphed stances and the player always has multiple options for the next attack, as well as being able to wait a moment to bait out a hold before continuing your combo. It's such a contrast to Tekken, which is so locked down by comparison and won't let you make those split second decisions. The only way to do anything spontaneous in Tekken is to bug out the movement animations in order to cancel moves that are supposed to prevent a follow up by pushing you away, allowing you to move in earlier than you should. I remember when Tekken Tag Tournament came out on PS2 and it was like playing underwater compared to DoA2 and Soul Calibur on the Dreamcast (plus TTT was only 50hz as far as I know. The PS2 was very bad for most of its EU releases being locked to 50hz, or that's how it seemed whenever I played over at a friend's house. I think that I had 5 or so games max on Dreamcast that didn't give you the option to run 60hz, whereas PS2 never seemed to offer that feature and had really grainy video output that made a lot of textures look really weird in motion, a bit like how certain patterns of clothing used to create weird flashing rainbow patterns, so you'd be looking at a guy in a tweed suit and it would look like you they were covered in refraction grating. It would kind of flash white for a fraction of a second for that part of the scan line, then go back to normal whenever there was a dark colour next to a lighter one. PS2 was a great system in a lot of ways, but the video output and reduced refresh rate really didn't do it any favours.)
Long time fighting game player here. Mainly VF. I never really liked DOA's hold system when I was a teenager playing DOA2 on the dreamcast. Fast forward to a few years ago, some of my FGC friends talked me into giving the series another shot. And I was blown away by how fun and deep the system really is. If you want to use holds well you really need to a) constantly be on the lookout for patterns in the opponent's gameplan b) know what options characters have in general. And as you keep getting better, the game just keeps getting more fun. Just watch some high level tournament footage from DOA5LR and you'll see what I mean. These guys do some INSANE reads and have massive balls 😁 Seriously, Tekken gameplay is stale when compared to DOA.
I am very happy how many videos do pop up in the past months, which finaly put the spotlight on why and how fun DOA (especially 4) is. How it is "deeply misunderstood", thank you for this quote btw. I keep on telling everyone who is talking about fighting games with me, how great this game and franchise is. Sadly it still has the stigma of being a booba game with no content to speak of, but boob physics.... exhausting. Tho looking at Tekken 8 and how the fighting director of DoA did move over to make its stages etc. It shows! The moment i saw the first footage of Tekken 8, i was like "Wait a minute... this looks like DOA! YES this is ripped out of it. I swear i am not crazy!" Then i did read how the fighting director of DOA was/is working on Tekken 8 and everything made sens. I am not crazy. Thank you for spreading the word of DOA4. Maybe we will see a new fun entry of my favorite fighting game franchise in the future.
Absolutely. FGC is the absolute bane of fighting games. I don’t think I’ve ever seen a competitive player who actually cares about what they’re playing. It’s all just pixels on a screen to them.
"functions" 😳👎
I disagree alot of pro player especially in anime fighter scene really care about visual, sound, animation aspect of the game. But I agree alot of people in mainstream game like SF and Tekken they actually doesnt care anything besides function
Poverty fgc still has that mentality of playing what you enjoy first rather than most profitable competition.
Yeah that's what it has become sadly. I think the FGC prior to the esports model, back when it was passionate arcade players, was much more fun and entertaining. Mostly because back then the reason you played a game was because you loved it, more so than because you were selecting the most viable career game.
@@TheElectricUnderground exactly.
I love Tekken, they f DOA Also look at how much tekken took from doa, virtua fighter put these on the map. Love doa! Miss the massive unique era of games, bloody roar, burnout, NFL blitz, to much individuality if you are around my age 36 you seen the best of outdoors, up and coming tec, and are living through crisis. We seen it all
as much as we like to think that devs care about the competitive scene i think they just see it as a marketing tool what I'm trying to say is modern fighting games suck 🍆
Good review. You made a lot of points which I'm in 100% agreement with, particularly with the Esports side of things, and why a number of fighting games aren't as fun as they could be outside of competition and lose playerbases quickly. I think back to Soul Calibur II as well as III, which didn't have online content, but had loads of things to do and were seriously fun. And Smash, of course, has always had lots of fun modes. I would love to play DOA 4, though I don't have an Xbox to play it on (I'd still buy a physical copy for collection purposes if anything). I'm not too sure if the Xenia programs run well on Steam Deck, either. I'm sure I'll figure something out. Definitely want to check it out at some point in the future.
Hitomi is cute!!
DOA4 is one of my most played games ever. I remember when it had a thriving online scene and was one of the most popular XBox 360 games. One of the GOATs along with Street Fighter II, 3S, and Soul Calibur.
- This me but with Dead or Alive 5 LR on PC. It is shockingly good pick-up-and-play game. Really feels action-game devs made a fighting game. The story mode was a great way to familiarize myself with characters, and arcade/survival mode were good fun. Hold/Throw mechanic is really fun. - DoA5LR's character models look really good, but color scheme is really dated. DoA 4 is much more pleasing in that regard. - Fair points on SP features of DoA4. Though I still think its great FG devs experimenting. SF6 Yakuza mode, I applaud they tried something new (even if it didn't stick the landing). - Wish you mentioned Soul Calibur
Thank you for this video. DOA has always been one of my favourite fighting game franchises, despite its recent shortcomings. Dead or Alive 2-4 brought me so much fun in my childhood/teenager years, and no, not because of the sexappeal (I was too young to notice that when I started playing anyway), but because of the fun and dynamic gameplay. Especially the stages. How you can start of fighting indoors, punch somebody through the wall, watch them fly down into a courtyard, your character jumping after them and then continue the fight there. Not to mention all of the interactive elements in a lot of the stages, like little objects that are scattered around the stage and mix up the flow of the fight. I wish we see a new DOA game in the style of the older ones in the future, but who knows if that is going to happen.
I have a lot of love about this franchise. When I had the ps1 DOA1 was the only game I owned for a while. I remember grinding arcade mode to unlock costumes and my father, mother and family would gather to play. I wish DOA7 can be a reality. Sorry for my English. I'm ESL
they r going to reboot the franchise so i could say doa is pretty f*cked
Bro, with advanced ai we have now, you'd expect these studios to make at least a single player mode where the ai behaves like a human and knows the meta, I'd like to see a game like doa4 that has a whole ass offline mode where every match is different with the advanced 2024 ai technology we have now, which can literally code games and write stories, behaving like legit humans. They cant possibly tell me that the ai cant be as advanced as a human player, especially now
I don't think AI in that sense has actually gotten any more sophisticated. Ghost Battles in Tekken 8 was supposed to change that, but it doesn't. It's a complete nothing feature because the tech simply doesn't exist. Yeah, we have LLMs, AI art, AI music and all that, but it's seriously overhyped in its current state and honestly I'm not even convinced that the hype around the mere potential is appropriate. LLMs are the least impressive but the most convincing for people on the surface level. AI images aren't much better; you could probably write an algorithm to crawl Deviant Art with boolean searches and meld stuff to get a similar outcome. AI music is the most impressive so far, but it's still little more than a curiosity. Like LLMs, you're operating in a space that's already largely procedural/mathematical so it's not a stretch to generate an illusion of creativity. Getting AI to control a human avatar and generate believable, dynamic behavior is what you would need to apply any of this tech to fighting game AI, and that's just in a whole other realm of sophistication that we haven't even poked at yet.
LLMs are overhyped for most domains, but I do think it would actually likely be pretty good for fighting game AI if trained on high ranked online match data. It's a much more limited domain than something like art generation and there isn't as much scope for weird uncanny valley elements. At least it probably would be a big improvement over typical approaches. Saturn Virtua Fighter 2 had an AI 'learning' mode that I believe used a primitive neural network based on past matches with the player to learn. I haven't used it that much myself but it was pretty praised for being better than traditional hardcoded fighting game AI.
@@saikimayu idk, computers are now getting npus in them (neurological processing unit) to assist ai thinking and creating more advanced ai technologies. To think our ai as of now is primitive, is to be ignorant. Ai is replacing human jobs with coding and ideas, it's only a matter of time before everything is ai. Why do you think that there were so many layoffs in the video game industry during the peak of ai technology? This is no coincidence and is not "overhyped" it's coming for us and our jobs, be alert and more focused
16:13 " I literally have every single BlazBlue game on steam and I have played them barely any because I can't find a reason to go back and play them." The latest installment in the mainline BlazBlue games titled "BlazBlue Central Fiction" averages around 200 players when looking at monthly charts ever since roll back came out on steam. So finding a match isn't really and issue there. And I think it's a game worth checking out, since "BlazBlue Central Fiction" is a game that is arguably just as complex as "Guilty Gear XRD Revelator," with the game like Revelator having legacy skill, meaning if you haven't stuck with the game since the original back in 2008 you have a MASSIVE hill to climb in learning frame data for each character's normals, gatlings, and overall mobility options that can be used on offense and neutral. Then there are the game's plentiful system mechanics, such as having a half a dozen options on defense that you need to master such as having four ways to block based on specific scenarios for example, and the game having a multitude of wake up options with each having a specific use, and that's not even going into the Drive mechanic, which is a unique action for each character, which there are OVER 35 of, which MOST of the cast plays VASTLY DIFFERENT from each other. Mainline BlazBlue games were HUGE in japan, with it being popular in many Japanese arcades, and as Obama stated in a podcast with Blasted Salami that the series had at one point been up there even with the almighty Tekken in terms of popularity. With many veterans like Dogura ( who is one of the best players in Guilty Gear who uses Slayer) and Fenrich ( who is arguably the best BB player, and currently one the best in DBFZ) representing the series for a long time . Sadly, The series just never took off over here in the west. However, the lack of popularity nationwide doesn't equate to the game's quality.The fact that is arguably the most unique AND complex 2D fighter on the market, but isn't talked about hardly at all in the west was always baffling to me. Especially when I read comments, and watch videos of people in the FGC complaining about how boring fighting games have gotten recently, or how easy it has become and yet will REFUSE to give the game a try. Thankfully, that seems to be changing, for instance Lord Knight, a tournament player who plays a variety of different fighting games recently made a fighting game tier list and put "BlazBlue Central Fiction" near the top, as well as popular Guilty Gear content creators like Obama saying on blasted salami's podcast that "BlazBlue Central Fiction" is arguably just as hard as Guilty Gear Xrd. For those who want to see high level game play in order to get a grasp of how hype this game can potentially be for you, I'd recommend a video titled "BlazBlue: Chrono Phantasma Grand Finals - Evo 2014" on youtube, and while the game represented there is not Central Fiction, I think it works, since Central Fiction is more of an evolution of Chrono Phantasma any way. Other channel's include "Burst Recap" and "Jourdal" for more high level Japanese play. Finally, BB TAG and mainline BlazBlue games are two SEPARATE things all together, with BBTAG having it's own set of rules with the system mechanics, and SIMPLIFYING ALL of the characters. It's for these reasons that you can't approach "BlazBlue Central Fiction" in the same way that you would BBTAG.
Ohh hello, copypaste guy! Please keep doing this.
@@soratheorangejuicemascot5809 Gotta continue to spread the gospel that is BBCF 🙏
focus
I was apart of the first set of people that started "pro leauge" esports... And let me tell you, the development direction of DOA and other games changed because of esports, and not a positive way. A very unsung story.
You're absolutely right, the focus on online and competitive scenes is killing fighting games left and right, it dates them and makes them a fad product, I also find it very worrying the amount of DLC characters, skins, modes and features that used to be unlockable or available as standard features (hitboxes on Tekken are now a dlc, wtf?), as well as season passes and timed content to be a detriment to the games, it makes them infinitely more expensive and less fun to play because there's no rewards system other than a glorified rank that can be wiped by the flick of a switch.
As someone part of the FGC who is the target competitive consumer just wanted to share that many of us agree with you. Because the more casual players enjoy the game the more likely we will have even more tournament attendees.
I still play Dead or Alive 4 on my XBox 360, a reminder of when games were released completed and all the stuff was there on release. Before online technology took over and corporations infiltrated into game companies.
It'd be interesting to have a video from you discussing depth, even if a topic like that is too, well... deep to fully cover in one video. I'm finding out more and more that players don't actually care all that much about depth (i.e. the number of viable interactions), but more so just want something that isn't boring and predictable. Not every single option has to be competitively viable, but the options that are have to at least lead to unique and interesting gameplay.
Also don't forget the media has to do with the public relations and announcement to give the game more hype and boost and that's where the competition go for!
I feel this. I'm not a fighting game player, but I do play a lot of PVP shooters with my friends, and one of the things we talk about is how bland things have become. Every map is just 3-lanes, every gun feels identical. These things used to be distinct. Did that mean that there were stinkers in those pools? Absolutely. But it was worth it to not have some homogenized "e-sports ready" blob of a game. It was worth having Derail in your game if it also gave you Favela. But you can't have an asymmetrical map or some quirky level interaction anymore because it's not "fair" or whatever. Fairness is good and all, but IMO it should be secondary to "fun" in most games
Do they try to be creative with weapons anymore? Perfect Dark and Turok were so awesome because they were creative instead of “balanced” (they did try the give weapons weaknesses and so forth but it was secondary to the fun factor)
Yeah it also happened to tf2. most of fun weapons are messed after they trying to be competitive game for "BALANCED"
I watch a lot of Maxamilian dood and I love his stuff but it can get a little exhausting how much he just blindly praises anything going on in fighting games like as if there’s no issues at all about the growth and current direction of fighting games but after MK 1 and the shady stuff Tekken did after release it’s just getting harder and harder to ignore. games like samurai showdown are just completely dead because of the direction fighting games are taking and it was refreshing too see someone call it out.
You claim you watch max,but ignore that he has addressed these issues in detail
Maximilian Dood was fighting game youtuber turned into "content creator" with HYPE video reactions!!! there is nothing wrong with what he does now ,it's just not advisable to take his opinion on anything in a critical light.
He's a bit of a shill in that he's a hype man, not for any company necessarily, but because he knows his viewership will spike for any new fg that comes out. In a way he's exactly what this video addressed with whats wrong with the fg community. Hyping the latest game and them moving on in a month.
@@CC42_ do you even watch his videos?
This is why I prefer Justin Wong
I could not subscribe quick enough as I watched this video. This spoke to me on a personal level; DoA has always been my favorite series and I've stated for years how it gets a bad rep when fanbases of other fighters disrespect it for elements only for them to downplay it when their favorite fighter does the same(and usually worse both in substance and in implementation). I really hate how over the years fighting games have downplayed the fun aspect of games for the competitive branch. Worse is how the crowd not only is compliant with this but actually defends it as (insert pro player) having a better chance at winning EVO is more important to them than personal enjoyment. 4 strictly grounded in rules games from franchises since the 90s is supposed to be "healthy" for this genre? You have dozens of franchises; fun at the time franchises that have been sleep for decades that need a revival. Project Justice, Darkstalkers, Power Stone, Weapon Lord, Bloody Roar, Urban Reign, hell at this point I'll take a new Psychic Force. But no, we get Tekken Again. Street Fighter 6: 4K Splatoon Effects. And the FGC is on board because they fear innovation. They FEAR developers taking time away from regurgitated franchises to make games that might be fun without a placement on CapCup or a bunch of Fight Passes, DLC, fighting game VC Points, etc. Since when did we as fans become OK with becoming corporate sponsors for Capcom, Namco, and Netherrealm without even receiving a paycheck from them?
Best in the series and one of the best fighting games ever. Unfortunately, after Itagaki left, the Team Ninja ruined DOA as they did with Ninja Gaiden.
I sunk so many hours into doa 4 with friends and family. it was amazing. team ninja needs to get their act together
Dude, Dead or Alive killed itself by selling over 600$ of DLC, not by not appealing to the playerbase. And I say this as a GIGANTIC fan of the franchise.
DOA5 was lucky but KT didn’t learned anything with DOA6 and almost killed the franchise. The last DOA game was in 2019 and that’s on the switch version of the spin off game.
I remember playing DoA 2. Loved the girls, get addicted by the fast pacing fight and the cool counters.
This video has so much facts that I can't even hold it. I was just complaining about esports in fighting games with my friend and this video suddenly popped up.
I love the survival mode for DOA4. It's just such a fun game to pick up and mash buttons to even if you're not good. I remember playing this with friends that weren't even into fighting games. Slamming your opponent into a wall or hitting that perfect hold at the perfect time was just so satisfying.
Wow. Thank you for openining my eyes 9:30. I wish every developer could See this video. DOA has best TAG animations. They should always keep it in
Dead or Alive 4 was the game that got me into FGC. I've played and put hours in all DOA and especially DOA5LR, yet I keep finding myself coming back to DOA4. The other game that I also keep myself coming back to is Blazblue. I enjoyed playing single-player in that franchise as well.
Side tournaments at EVOJapan was more fun to watch than almost all other main games. Maybe because they aren't build around "Esport" and so "overbalanced".
How do I access the online leaderboards for the Xbox one version, do I have to buy the digital version of doa 4 on marketplace?
Good point there, the DOA series was all about fun and even the single player arcade mode was entertaing. While most fighting games now are more about versus matches, those forgotten series were good to play without an online component.
That reminded me of KoF Maximum Impact 2 and it's insane ammount of game modes and unlockables. Imagine having 40 playable characters with 16 costumes each 8 of them unlockable half the total roster and costumes can be unlocked through either playing the arcade mode or finishing other game modes like survival, challenge quests and time attack, have party modes for VS matches, which consist in adding random effects to the fighters like life steal with the cost of constantly having your life drained, super armor but with reduced move speed and such to make the matches way too wild, you even get to fight a metal slug as a challenge quest and carve moai heads, not to mention the survival mode is like a rogue-like were you have to get upgrades for your fighter with points you get after each fight, but those same points can be used to heal so you have to decide to either heal or get an upgrade. Man that game was so cool.
Great video dude. Subscribed. I'm a big fan of Doa. I absolutely love your emphasis on enemy AI. Also, about that digital foundry thing, watch their latest review of stellar blade by John, not Alex the guy who made the "action figure dolls" comment. Plus stay tuned for his "secondary motion characteristics" remark in the video as he brings up Itagaki (John really respects Itagaki. His DF Retro Ninja Gaiden video is great).
Great video! And analysis! I agree with all your opinions. Including your points concerning the FGC and FGC content creators picking a new fighting game and making it the fighting game of the month. And then the game is no longer streamed or talked about. * I find it ironic that you started the video talking about Esports and the FGC. Yet DOA 4 had an Esports presence. DOA4 was the featured fighting game on the CGL (Competitive Gaming League) a Esport video game TV show. DOA4 was the last DOA game to mainstage EVO. And was played in the World Cyber Games. * DOA 4 was the pinnacle game of the series. Sadly at the time many in its small but very vocal high level community did not like the game. And like many other fighting game communities the game devs listened abd catered to the high level players who barely make up 30% of the customer base that buy fighting games. Team Ninja created the abomination that is DOA 5,s gameplay structure. To appease the high level DOA community and bring in new players who just want to push buttons. The offense hold system had a tighter window and the damage was nerfed. So DOA 5 played like a watered down VF 5 with counter holds. DOA6 did bring back the relevance of the counter hold system. But the meter mechanic was meh.
In my opinion, this battle was fought well before today. Tekken is popular because of Tekken 3 that late 90's early 2000s era were the deciding factor. Tekken being on the Playstation is mainly a huge part on why it's popular today. Where DOA was on the less popular console, Dreamcast. That sealed it's fate. The big 3 (Tekken, Street Fighter, Mk) were on playstation some less popular titles are on playstation as well like guilty gear and kof.
While I understand and agree many of the points you make in this video (especially with regards to single player content being something that devs should pay more attention to, since it actually gets a lot of more casual -here not used in a derogatory way- players into the games), I do think there are some things worth mentioning when it comes to the health of the fighting game community as a whole. On one hand you mention not wanting to play games like Under Night or Melty because they have close to 0 competitive potential, but these games are still popular enough to the point where you can find matches (at least at the moment of writing this) on the weekend with no issue, and of course you can then go into discord to ask for matches during the week and such. They are not quite as dead as most other fighting games used to be before the pandemic happened and rollback became the norm. I remember being incredibly frustrated when uniclr came out because there's no local scene where I live and delay netcode just really bothered me a lot. Even games like DNF Duel which are dead by standards of playerbase still have a pretty solid although small playerbase that plays the game on the weekends quite consistently. In a sense, the middle budget / low budget indie fighting game probably has a bigger chance of getting a small but consistent audience now than it did years ago, and you can def feel the difference. In this sense, not playing these games because of their "low competitive potential" is buying a bit too much into the logic of these headlines that equate the health of the scene with the status of the biggest tournaments. Just because the specific local tournaments dont have that many people interested doesnt mean the games are dead, and we're now honestly at a time in which it is the easiest to play them with people consistently without having to have a local scene, which means that specially if you want the games to just be fun and not focus on winning money competing in them, then you can play them more easily. This is at least my 2 cents. Another thing that I feel compelled to mention is that, at least from my perspective (european with a very small local community and who needs to travel to be able to play tournaments of most games i like offline), it's always been the case that the big franchises eclipsed the smaller ones, with the main difference that I see now being that most fighting games that come out these days are much more accessible and its easier to play them (both because its easier to find matches and because its easier to actually perform the inputs and such) which is again a plus that modern fighting games have over older ones that isnt related to them being esports centered or anything like that. I guess that what im saying here is that, while I agree that the direction fighting games have taken leaves out some very important elements (such as the single player content etc), there's still a lot of people who play the games they have fun with and now that better netcode and discords are so commonplace its much easier to find a big community of players who are willing to play these games, at least online. Perhaps if I was living somewhere that used to have a bigger arcade scene I'd feel the shift you're talking about more, since it seems its in the arcades that these smaller games have lost a lot of their presence
Fun Fact DoA can be played with One Hand. In all seriousness I love this series. The visuals are what got me interested in the game but the fighting mechanics got me invested.
I have only played DoA5 but I loved the single player content and sheer kinetic fun. I totally agree with you on how much fun DoA is and how interactive it is; the hold system is a beautiful way to make frame data less important and emphasize intuition and lizard brain instincts - the things that people do actually enjoy about fighting games (frame data has always been for losers - numbers are not depth!).
There's a lot to pack here. I might have to do a response video to address certain parts, but overall, this was a good video.
In 2003 I had to explain to my first wife my sudden excitement for beach volleyball…… it was fine till she saw the Venus outfit I was saving up for…. Like the fighting part too also
90 seconds in is usually when i rememberhow much i hate a channel but here its 90 seconds in that i remember how much i love and appreciate this channel. this game was the absolute most exciting online fighting game available at the time. my xbox 360 died in february while this game was bangin, and took two months to fix, it was massively depressing. really fantastic game.
digital foundry still living in Mark's head
Lol yeah that clip does live in my mind, I think because they so casually nuked DOA art design ha.
They did say some very dumb things
Moar like Digital F***otry, amirite?
Its incredible that this is a launch title and it still looks and plays amazing, Even if the AI is hair pulling and frustrating. Remember when launch titles had some of the best and quality games ever? You rarely see that now.
Glad someone said it! DOA4 it where it peaked! The DOA design is so bold, aggressive and instance! But I don't think DOA is shallow it's just simpler and doesn't try to bloat it's gameplay with multiple systems! Unfortunately with 5 they started trying to be more like VF and Tekken and pushed the fan service to 11 that scared many old players and new ones, they forgot the DOAX was created to separate the extreme fan service and the combat!!
Can't believe Dead or Alive 4 turns 20 next year 😭
Lots of Hitomi footage. I see you are definitely a man of culture. She’s my favorite DOA babe.
Hell yes! Hitomi is awesome very under rated character. Her vibe and fighting style in DOA4 is peak Hitomi I think ha.
Yeah. I love the Traditional Karate style that she has. Osu!
You need to start doing interviews with your Patreons as most of their names are now part of the channel. It's now feels like a tradition to hear their name at the end that it's time to know who they are as players. Also out of curiosity lag is your main gripe, I'd love to see how super players take to this. How would it effect their game, their strategy, does it totally make the game unplayable at that level for high score and so on. It's a curiosity for the future as eventually original hardware may no longer be available and as such do copies eventually erase the intended spec if their is nothing historic to pull from. This goes for accurate slow down, resolution and even glitches.
DoA4 was great for esports tho, it was huge. Huge tournaments before esports became what it is. My brother won some of them and was #1 Ein in the world funnily enough.
Ive enjoyed the gameplay of DoA since I first played part 2 back in the day. The game is easy to pick up and play (or at least press buttons and do cool things) for beginners, but it has a lot of depth thanks to the mind games (kind of like modern Killer Instinct) due to the hold system. I played 4, 5, and 6 a ton (4 is my fave), and I would probably play 6 more if they didn’t make the single player grind such a slog. I enjoyed running through arcade mode multiple times to unlock the various costumes in the previous titles.
DoA when you get two masters at it- is insane. It can be a blitz or catch-as-catch can where each is waiting to counter the other. Every character can use Holds to turn the tide whereas Tekken say only has select counters for certain fighters so once you know it it gets boring to watch where a pro DoA game is beautiful to watch or be part of and gods I miss it so much...