"I thought you were longer" - you, upon seeing this video's timecode
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Previous Invincible essays:
• How Invincible Deconst...
• Shut Up About Amber
#invincible #videoessay #invincibletv
Timestamps:
0:00 Introduction
0:47 Angstrom Levy
3:21 Dark Mark
8:17 Conclusion
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Hey, man. Great video. While slightly underwhelming I thought it was a great season. Also, do you remember that video you did on Amber? Well… look I’m not gonna shame you for trying to defend her, but I think you just misinterpreted why people hate her. It’s more about how she was never portrayed as in the wrong and Mark was shown as completely in the wrong by the story and other characters. It would’ve been better if it turned out she somehow knew for weeks and instead Mark revealed his identity, she apologises for yelling at him but questions if they’ll probably have too many problems and isn’t sure it would be worth getting back together. I’m sorry, that just would’ve made their breakup feel way more impactful in season 2. The acting was great in that, but I just kept on remembering how she shamed him for keeping his identity a secret even though it would’ve been life changing for him, especially after dating for a few months, and she didn’t tell him she knew.
@@insectostrich4407 you’ve not ruined my day because these don’t really counter the points I made in that video, they’re just reiterating the same tired complaints. You’re free to feel that way, but none of them are ‘flaws’ in the writing or anything. Smart people like Amber aren’t automatically _instantly & consistently rational beings_ in emotional beings (especially when they’re in their teens), 5 months is a pretty long time, actually, she’s yelling at him (while knowing) because she’s upset (😲!) and I _just don’t agree_ that season 1 positions her as totally 100% correct for her actions - see the final/epsiode 8 scene I reference in the Amber video. Because, yeah, this is all in that video. I’m not sure why you didn’t like the counters I made in it, but to me they remain as valid now as they were then. Edit: for anyone wondering why this comment no longer makes a great deal of sense as a reply, the person I’m responding to edited theirs
@@PillarofGarbage Oh sorry. I didn’t realise you were typing. Anyway, to respond to your response. I understand what you’re are trying to say, but it just doesn’t work because there’s literally no moment where Amber was called out, it’s just William and Eve saying he was a terrible boyfriend and he got what he deserved. And yes, it makes sense she wouldn’t think rationally as a teenager all the time, but it doesn’t make sense in a situation where like this where she knows Mark is the hero who saved them. That’s why it should never have been revealed she knew. I know the writers were just trying to show a parallel between Omni-Man lying to Debbie, but it doesn’t work with how it’s executed.
@@insectostrich4407 The only other thing I’ll add now is that if you think the only way a show can position behaviour as good/bad is with a scene of explicit, textual ‘calling out’ I think you’re approaching TV in a rather shallow way.
@@PillarofGarbageonce again, really sorry to bring this up and beat a dead horse, but it just impacted invincible in negative way. I understand why you’re sick of the ranting and videos on why Amber is bad. However, it’s a problem that needs to be addressed. See in the comics she was angry at Mark for disappearing, but had no idea he was Invincible. And when he revealed himself she was so happy and got back together. So, I would keep the not knowing part, but change her reaction to finding out. Like I said have her question if it would be worst getting back together and then after the Omni-Man fight have them get back together. Making the breakup in season 2 so much more heartbreaking.
The real villain was the evil amazon scheduling.
And the addition of unskipable ads into paid service. Like what the fuck
Bruh i thought my shit got downgraded @Etticos.
Be a pirate
@@ceequesburneracc what?
Seth rogan
Obviously it was the release schedule.
fair actually
@@PillarofGarbagei’d honestly go as far to say it’s reaction is directly proportional to this reaction at least subtly.
Legit took the words out of my mouth
Fact
Agreed, I was going to say it was Amazon lol
Only reason it FELT lackluster was because we waited four months for only four episodes. Definitely still an amazing season.
The release schedule was the true villain. More evil than any villain Mark or any hero will ever face 😱
Hope they don't ever do that shit again
@@skankhunt4767they’ve been getting too comfortable with some of their decisions. That only leads to complicity and a degradation of quality if left unchecked and unchallenged. I think amazon can continue to make invincible great as a show. That’s if they remain aware of what makes it great. That scheduling was a big L that pissed many off
@@SoulburgersSoll enough people are complaining about it that I don’t think they’ll do it again (if they’re smart)
@@lilricebowl9731 maybe, if they’re smart and care about maintaining views. They’re however extremely large, so if they deem invincible to not be profitable enough they could potentially cancel it. All possibilities, to what degree I’m not sure as contracts make things a lil funny.
Steven Yuen fucking killed it this season, ESP in the finale. It's easy to forget because he's surrounded by industry vets like JK Simmons and Clancy Brown but with the finale alone he's put himself among the greats in voice acting.
couldn’t agree more, I can’t imagine anyone else in the role
And Mark Hamil 🙄😂
Fr every emotional scene he does be it rage or sadness, chills.
the "oh no, poor angstrom" line was such an amazing performance it's stuck in my head
@@grhmcrck Sociopath versions of Mark like that are so funny yet so terrifying. It's like this surface level niceness about committing his horrible deeds, our Mark's kindness twisted into something very dark.
Hard to believe that the sequids had more setup than Angstrom did.
Don't wanna spoil much but the sequids do have a very interesting impact on Mark's character down the road, likely next season.
I think some people just wanted a big spectacle full of gore that could one up the Omni-man fight, but I think this was the better choice if you continue making the finale bigger and bigger at some point things will get out of control, so having the finale being a relatively small event that attacks Mark mentally and emotionally is a great way to go about things.
It doesn't have to go for 12 seasons yk
@@AugustCrossroadsKirkman is pushing for 8 seasons
S3 is def gonna be full of gore and fighting so this was a good warm up for that
No the problem was the that the first episode framed the villain and conflict like it was more important than it was. That was their biggest mistake. And idk the comic I think this character does come back but it won’t change that the way they introduced this whole plot line felt disconnected and ultimately nothing more than to drive home Mark inner conflict, which is fine by me but some people were really interested in the potential of a multiverse situation this season. I just think the writers should have water down the first episode a bit.
@@parisknight1840 isnt the Invincible War next season tho? isnt that why we see all the dark Marks? Heck i cant wait for Sinister Mark
One complaint I got tired of is why is mark always getting beat up. He never does anything cool. People need to understand how young Mark is when compared to thousands year old genocidal space warriors. Also he was still under the impression he could have a some what of a normal college life. Now he realizes that is not possible, let the character grow and develop. Fans have become impatient and want instant gratification. When you look at the comics the show adaption is still very much in its infancy.
id much prefer him losing every now and then to a story where the main character always wins. mark is cool because he has flaws,
Fr, they just need to wait for blue suit Mark
He’s Invincible not because of his strength but because of the integrity of his character. People complaining about him losing fights are very low IQ individuals. If you only like a character who’s strong and wins all the time, it just tells me you’re a shallow individual. Plus it also tells me these people don’t pay attention. Mark is legit always holding back. The minute he let loose, he beat Angstrom and Thula. Not to mention, all these a** beatings are going to make him hella strong. The pay off is gonna be amazing.
Literally it's like they don't get the point of the character preserviring
I mean i get the feeling that Mark is holding back. He even says in the last episode ‘you have no idea what I’ve been through, how much I’ve been holding back’ He seems afraid of his full strength, afraid to kill. Its why the viltrimite seem so much stronger, because the dont hold back, every blow is intended to be lethal
This season was about going through pain (physical and emotional) and seeing what kind of person that pain turns you into.
You are absolutely right!!! But I will be 1000% honest here. Season 1 (in my opinion) is by far the better of the two seasons; however, I do think that Season 2 was pretty good though. It was definitely different than Season 1, and there were parts of it that I really enjoyed. With that said though, I do get the feeling that Season 2 was just a set up for Season 3, and that Season 3, when its done, will be the best of the three seasons.
You can really feel that just by looking at the number of drawn out, melancholy meditations on the chaos the preceded it. This season really wanted to take things slow and it makes sense that people who loved the facemelting violence of season 1 wouldn't necessarily get it or like it
This season really blew it with a deus ex machina rescue of Mark in the desert like 5 minutes after the fight finishes. 40 days in the desert is the absolute minimum and if you are an immortal like Mark then why not a year or two? Cause here Mark could have just put a choke hold on Angstrom and forced him to return him to the right dimension - that's certainly what his father would have done. What Mark did is just some careless teenage thing and there has to be more than 5 minutes of punishment for that kind of lack of impulse control.
It;s not the pain, it's the people. Angstrorm used it to give him a sense of righteous vengeance that was also coded in narcissism and egotism, to where he could justify horrible acts to the "person who did this to him" never considering he could be wrong. He used his pain to fuel him to hurt others that really didn't deserve it.
@@dcisrael He can still die of dehydration and thirst. He can go a lot longer without both but he's still an organic being that needs those things. He's not actually "immortal"
The real villain is how long they are making us wait for mark and eve.
Trust me dude it’s worth the wait
@connie4334 Seems like people complained so much about gingercide, they contemplated raceswapping Amber or Eve and chose to change Amber. Starfire, Iris West, Jimmy Olsen, Ariel all received backlash so they chose the blonde one this time
@@suezcontours6653Honestky, Zazie Beetz is good, so I don’t mind the change. I am curious if the decision was made before or after the casting process began.
Give Mark some time, they JUST broke up, like, a day ago canonically. Eve x Mark shippers really tweaking over nothing
@@suezcontours6653reaching
A common theme I picked up on this season was doubt and subsequent reflection. We get a lot of scenes where characters are shaken and forced to reflect on who they are. Mark repeatedly doubts his ability to hold a stable relationship with Amber, work together with both Cecil and the Guardians and even whether he's any different from his father. Season 1 showed Mark get repeatedly beaten down physically, but Season 2 chipped away at him emotionally and mentally and it all culminates with Angstrom Levy. He's not the villainous mastermind working in the shadows, he's the straw that broke the camel's back. Mark has been getting pushed and pushed to his mental limits all season so when Angstrom portals in and hurts Mark's family, it causes all of the stress to boil over and ultimately kill Angstrom.
As Rex puts it, "Everybody f*cks up. To f*ck up is to be human ... [We've] all sh*t the bed at least once." As far as animated pep talks go, it's up there with Todd telling BoJack, "You do the Hokey Pokey, and you turn yourself around. You TURN YOURSELF AROUND."
I'm glad you bring up the dichotomy of season 1 and 2, as the major complaint prior to the finale of season 2 I saw online was "why can't Mark beat anyone" even though he does win, it's just when he does it's not a substantial threat or he squashes it before it becomes one, excluding the Sequids. Season 1 showed us how utterly powerless Mark is as a hero at times, and takes some heavy losses physically. Season 2 showed us how even if Mark has the capability to win, he still loses as Angstrom expertly displays this, he lost control. Much like in the show, to the fanbase Mark just can't win, which is kinda poetic. Also wanna add the fact he's still fairly new to all this still, he's not an aged veteran, he's not even an adult. He's trying to make decisions on the fly without experience or composure. Granted I truly believe if he weighed up his options, Angstrom would had to have been stopped. It's just he couldn't reach that conclusion before reaching into the depths of rage, which isn't the hero Mark wanted to be. As we even see flashbacks to when Mark said to Omni-Man he wants to be just like him after he gets back to his Earth and is flying at speed to basically release all his frustration to himself. Mark has a built up idea of what a hero is. I love Mark as a character because he's not just relatable in one sense or another, tackling with taking a life and how much power you truly have vs times where you can't do a single thing, it's odd to say but most all people will encounter moments like this in their life and how they handle them defines them, as it does Invincible.
I think that the finale delivers and I like how the shows narrative and the use of the iconic line "I thought you were stronger" can be both interpreted as Mark justification for what happened and him talking to himself about losing control.
I think killing the villain was completley justifiable, there shouldn't have been remorse, it's a fake"moral dilemma" IMO.
@@fernandovargas5338fair view honestly considering what Angstrom did and would have done if Mark hadn't stopped him, but just bc you see it that way doesn't mean its unrealistic for Mark to see it differently. Also I think its not just that he killed someone, but that he did so in a fit of rage and by the time he came to his senses Angstrom was dead. It's scary to lack control of your own actions when you are that powerful, even if what you did in the moment was justifiable. Even from a non moral standpoint, killing Angstrom in the way Mark did was a mistake bc it trapped Mark in another dimension until he got bailed out by the future guardians. In a way, he doomed his original timeline (obv its Angstroms fault, but if Mark kept a cooler head he mightve been able to force Angstrom to take him back. So thats another thing Mark may end up blaming himself for).
@@fernandovargas5338 Mark sees the world through rose-tinted glasses. He's just 18 and he thinks he can shoot his spiderwebs and bind up the villain while the popo come arrest him. It's either that or he becomes completely unhinged and goes ape-shit. Both of those things are bad for him, because he'll never be strong enough to beat anyone with the former attitude, and become just like his father with the latter attitude. So this whole season is about him seesawing between those two extremes, trying to find his path to becoming Inv-
my thoughts exactly, it went both ways
One thing I really loved in this season is how they've been slowly teasing what the idea of a visceral and adrenaline-filled Mark would look like and how it would look like if Mark truly stopped holding back, and that ties into the comics/show exploration into the moral complexity of heroism. When we see Mark go all out and beat the living s*** out of Angstrom, we feel thrilled and satisfied to finally see what they've been building up to; however, just like Mark, we eventually/slowly come to the realisation that Mark is killing Angstrom was not epic win we had in mind but seeing Mark become just like his father and lose control in a fit of rage (rage which was justified given that Angstrom did deserve it), and only validate what Angstrom has been saying with almost every universe having become evil. We have to learn how to understand Mark's perspective and what it means to control his mind and body to not reflect what Angstrom was saying with other Marks in the multiverse, how the world sees Mark, or how he sees himself becoming like his dad, and learn to be better.
Especially with how the music starts off triumphantly and then becomes distorted when he pins Levy to the ground. That was the line Mark crossed, when he had the opportunity to walk away.
angstrom did not deserve to die he had a noble cause which mark ruined out of ignorance and then was forced to live through insanity.
@@klaw6368 Having a sad backstory doesn't justify any villain, it just makes them more sympathetic. Angstrom was still willing to kill a baby. His original intentions don't change that.
@@bloodredhanded he had good reason to kill this potential genocidal vilturmite baby
except it doesnt even matter later on in the story as both mark and eve, and i quote, “being a hero is bullsh*t”
The finale worked very well for me. It hit hard when he realized that he not only lost control but that he wanted to, that Levy pushed the right buttons for him to do something he didn't know he was capable. I also love how Cecil's attempt to help Mark was such a black and white/hollow attempt to soothe Mark's turmoil.
Yeah I thought it was super interesting that Cecil through the whole season is like "Meh you're acting just like your dad rn" and then the second he genuinely does an act like his dad he goes "Nah man what? Nahhh. Nah man ur good."
Yeah i disagree with the video and this take. Like I think that was the writers' goal, to make Mark lose control and the audience think "Oh wow is Mark actually a loose cannon?" but it didn't land for me. It felt forced. Like Mark is so shaken by the fact that he killed a guy, a guy who held his mother and brother hostage, threatened them, threw a knife at them with intent to kill, and then intended to kill Mark and they fought for a while. Responding to that by killing Angstrom is... a pretty normal and reasonable reaction for anyone in such a circumstance. All the clips during the season of other, evil Marks feel completely disconnected from the Mark we know (and it feels like essentially wasted screentime) because they are entirely different characters. At no point did I ever think "Oh man, I hope our Mark doesn't become that!" because he's already demonstrated repeatedly that he isn't like those other Marks. He didn't join Omni-man because of his human love for his family, friends, and the species as a whole. He told Anissa to F off based on morals, even though Cecil himself encouraged him to say yes. He tried to protect the bug people against the Viltramites because the bug people were innocent. All he's ever done is demonstrate an unwavering commitment to do what's right, and the show tries to force this dynamic that he's uncontrollable or that he's a danger to those around him. It wasnt a bad season, but Season 1 was far better (even with awful Amber).
@@aaronb6878 I do not feel like it's intent was to make Mark seem capable of "evil" or "uncontrollable" so much as to show that Mark didn't think himself capable of that. Now he has to realize that not only is that want/ need to end a threat with death normal for most people, especially those with the power to do so, that its as human as much as it is Viltrumite. Having to contend with that want while having so much power will have to be part of his future training. If he wants to keep himself from taking what seems like the easiest option in killing someone and search for a better solution, finding more tools than violence will have to part of said training. The fact that Mark WANTS to do this is a large part of WHY this Mark is different. You can't just look at the previous actions, you have to look at all of who Mark is even as he learns about himself. He is still a teenager after all. That's where my mind went when I saw the final episode.
I feel we kind of got that beat in episode 4 already which made if feel less impactful to me here.
I think people hate on the idea of being guilty about Mark killing, but I think it got to Mark more because it wasn't a full concise choice to kill, but rather an emotional in the moment spur. If he had made the concise choice to kill as a final option then he might feel less uneasy about his action. I think we can see that in the soundtrack of the moment as it starts heroic as Mark gains the upper hand, but goes silent once he looses control of himself.
Conscious I think
I also think that it definitely got to him as much as it did only because of his fear of becoming his father, after seeing the destruction his father caused in Chicago. I think a season 1 mark who was put into the same situation would not feel as guilty as he did.
In Season 1's finale, Mark's body is broken, but his spirit is inact, along with his attachment to humanity and his loved ones. In Season 2's finale, Mark's body is whole, but his spirit is fractured from failing to cage his viltrumite impulses.
I really loved how half the episode was dedicated to introspection and aftercare. Mark went through a lot there. It was worth the time to decompress.
You should have said it wasnt levy it was - and then cut to the title screen lmao
Almost did! Decided against it for tonal reasons, but yeah, that would have been a good bit!
@@PillarofGarbage fair point 😂😂
@@PillarofGarbage Might have worked if you did it at the very very end so it didn't take too much away
This season is a masterpiece. Not only did it meaningfully address Mark's journey toward self-acceptance by showing why Earth needs him as Invincible, but it understood with relationships such as Oliver and Debbie that people need Mark, too. Even though the emotional highs may not reach the same as in season 1, they have a consistent heart throughout each episode with a much more self-realized supporting cast. How many other Superhero shows can you think of where a character like Donald has equal depth to the protagonist? Finally, the ending. Most season 2 finales either resolve every plot thread or leave a cliffhanger, but the fact that it could do both, just like season 1, shows these showrunners can capture lightning in a bottle twice. Amazon should be careful not to rush their next season again.
I agree with most of what you said except the very last part. What part of this season was rushed? It took 2.5 years to begin and if that’s rushing then this series is going to take like 20 years to finish lol
@@caseyhart4999 Cool. I mean rush the release date. They weren't finished with the animation since they took that break. I argue that Amazon should let the season get finished before promising a release date.
@@BatAmerica I do agree with that. I just hope there’s some way we can get it in under 2 years please lol this season was indeed a masterpiece.
@@caseyhart4999I agree, if that is possible, it would be fantastic.
This show really is "Superheroes, but Humanism". It's one of the only shows I've watched where it legitimately feels like all the characters are their own people, with their own stories, lives and journeys to self-actualisation - they're used to further the plot, sure, but they all act in natural ways given their situation and history.
Angstrom Levy is not THE big bad. Season 2 wasn’t constructed around a big final villain like Omni-Man in Season 1. The season was built more around various events in Mark’s life that were building in severity and frequency. All of that intensified by Mark’s underlying trauma and fear of becoming his father. Mark’s trauma was the real villain. And Angstrom was the personification of Mark’s fears. The idea that Mark was just another violent Viltrumite no matter how much he fought against it. It’s a fight against this predestined narrative that he will always be his father at the end of the day. I love the idea behind Angstrom being used to represent Mark’s character. His mind has been jumbled up with all of the memories of his counterparts and the vast majority of universes show Mark embracing being a Viltrumite. The implication is that even though this Mark is a hero, he still has similar traits to his counterparts when it comes to violence. Mark’s decision at the end represents that Mark still feels that same rage that is emblematic of Viltrumites and now Mark has to wrestle with the fact that deep down he can be just as aggressive as a Viltrumite. Mark beat Angstrom the same way Nolan beat Mark in the Season 1 finale. Essentially the multiverse is used as a way to explore Mark’s character as opposed to fanservice cameos……although those Spider-Man and Batman scenes were fire 😏
"It was me barry"
I feel like it's because angstrom wasn't really in the season that much, he really showed up only in the first episode and a bunch of post credit scenes. But to me, it kind of makes sense for him, he is kinda supposed to be the over the top evil arch enemy with a bad reason. It kinda makes sense how less time he has. Mark doesn't even really know him at all. He is more of a tool to push mark's character rather than being a real character himself. He sets up Mark's development to quit college and focus on himself getting stronger and being able to compete with future foes like the viltrumite army. I still liked it tho.
I feel like its a byproduct of the comics, where characters will just kinda reappear for one issue after being teased in the last page of the previous one, doesn't always necessarily work better for a far more serialized tv show.
The chief complaint ive seen is about how Levy feels ill-developed. But i cant say i agree. His character is not supposed to be a big existential threat to Mark. He's not world-threatening. He goes down like a chump and that's the point. Mark kills him by not holding back, partially on accident as he takes his anger out on Levy. Levy exists to serve Mark's character more than any big plot-related reason, as opposed to the Viltrumite stuff. Which is both, in a lot of ways.
I also think it's made pretty clear that he is not supposed to be justified in his actions at all. His character is one who started with almost comically good intentions, but whose principles were so set in stone he caused an accident that disfigured him and left him mad. Also, now that I'm writing it down, he almost feels like an anti-Cecil; Cecil, being a practicalist willing to bend his morality but who never loses sight of the greater good, contrasting with Angstrom, a principlist who is much less flexible. I wonder what this says about Kirkman's ideals...
They shouldn't have showed us Levy's point of view at all for this to work. We should have seen him through Mark's eyes. And right at the end Levy should have showed Mark those ruined worlds for the seed of doubt to be planted in the audience. The main issue here is dissonant between message of what was important it wasn't murder itself, is that Mark is capable of killing a person by getting overwhelmed by emotions (exactly like majority of normal humans can be. It isn't unique to superheros). And if act of murder is secondary it shouldn't have any build up to be effective. Getting pissed of at random a**hole on the street or even someone close to him (lets say William) wanting to hurt him and accidentally killing him would archived the same level of existential crisis as we got here. So, I didn't felt it. And on paper what season 2 did with characters should have being my favorite piece of the genre. All deep character study that they attempted felt incredibly shallow. Even Debbie's journey. Parts of it's dialogue, part's pacing issue, part's animation that can't make interesting looking scene out of two people talking (this season for some reason). It looked barebones, character's expression couldn't sold it (take Atom Eve confession and Mark's non-confession it should have being powerful, poignant, but oh well..) and voice acting didn't save it. TL:DR look how scene involving two people going through conflicting emotions look like in pretty faithfull, limited, continuation of X-men. How they getting their point across (anyone, but let's take Jean and Cyclop for example) and compare it to scenes like Kate and Rex "argument" with infodump instead of a character "going at it". Or Amber and Mark conversations aka writers being afraid to say anything harsh to main character and turning her into doormat out of fear of backlash. It was very disappointing season. I'll give comics a try, but I will skip season 3 for sure.
@@somestuff7876 I think that's the real issue. Like yeah, Angstrom isn't really the villain but then don't obviously set him up to be the villain in episode 1 and then have him disappear for the rest of the season. Make us actually as surprised as Mark to learn who he is and why he wants revenge. Mark and the audience were not on the same page in that scene (or at least I wasn't).
I liked it, and yeah, looking at it this way, Season 2 ends up being Mark's story more than Season 1 did. It makes sense that Nolan took a backseat. We've seen the confliction Nolan had, and in Season 1, Mark's confliction was more with Nolan than the personal one he had in Season 2. It also makes sense why, despite losing the fight, Season 1's ending was explicitly hopeful, while Season 2 is comparatively a downer and melancholy.
I think even the show itself makes a point that it isn't about Angstrom when Mark doesn't remember him, which is quite funny. Angstrom is just a guy pissed at Invincible that managed to get under his skin and make him lose control.
Exactly how I felt. Seemed beyond obvious to me, no clue how people are missing the seasonal through line
This show deserves so many more episodes. I think the best part of Invincible is the dialogue, the vulnerable conversations and exploration of character. I think this season really brought that side of the comics out. I can't wait for the next seasons which are truly the peak Invincible arcs in terms of action and story.
The Mark going evil/fear holding you back threads are in pretty much every aspect of this season. From the alt universes, The Immortal's mistrust, everything with Cecil. At the same time, you have Allen the Alien providing a counter balance, he is kind of Mark without the Trauma. At the point when Mark's life looks like it is taking a turn for the better, Allen is "killed". When Mark's problems start catching up with him and reflecting his worst fears, Allen comes back, stronger than ever and seemingly unfazed.
Invincible, reminds me of matt in Netflix's DD & Peacemaker on his show. All struggling with internalised trauma and darkness within; all have daddy issues. To be clear, obviously not the same characters, but these things about each character resonated with me a lot. Masculine fear of one's anger and stress, and the pain it brings for you and others around you. That's what I like about these characters, that I see in different ways with them all.
Wrd !
I think everyone who thought it was underwhelming didn’t understand that Levy wasn’t meant to be some big opponent for Mark to overcome but one that was meant to push Mark to the breaking point emotionally that causes him to lose control. This whole season’s theme was about Mark not wanting to become like Nolan and it’s Levy that pushes Mark past his breaking point that helps Mark see just exactly what he’s actually capable of
I don't think it is an good faith argument to say that just because it was intendend to be something it can't be underwhelming in other aspects. I find it underwhelming because it is underwhelming, regardless of theme. Clearly they wanted to have Mark delve on the ldea that he might be close to what his father was. To do it in a way the show did with very little build up is still underwhelming for both characters the theme itself. Would it not be more interesting to see him in battle few times almost lash out and then have him go all out in the end and realising what has he done. One other problem I have is with how they handled Levy in the last episode. The previous occurrence made it like that accident made him evil. We get no further developments on that. Finally the last episode very shortly ponders on the though of 'I have become what I hate'. It would have been quite interesting to draw parallels between Mark and Levy both realising that. In the end you have time travel which feels almost instantaneous after the fight(part of the reason I have issues with time travel in general), which leaves us with no breathing room for character arc that Marc would go on alone on an unknown world(perhaps even hostile one), which would further develope that dark Mark arc. One other part of the show that is equally underwhelming if not more is Immortal's arc after Kate's death. First is his reaction at Kate's funeral, someone as old as he is would not be affected by death of just one person. It would have been far better if this was the breaking point where he has seen too much. But it still need flush that out as you will have him be reluctant to be with someone. As far as I know we get no such dialogue between him and Kate. The biggest underwhelming moment is 'I had a clone hidden somewhere just in case'. It takes away from the sense of consequences. When people say underwhelming my interpretation is that they saw something with clear potential and in the end it turn out to be not as good as it could have been.
Well done, PoG. I really felt this season had more heart too (for lack of a better word), felt way more drawn into the struggles of the characters & the stakes Mark was facing - both immediate (like in the fight with Anissa) and long-term (aftermath of the fight with Angstrom Levy). Just a masterpiece all around, and much moreso than I expected.
something i noticed is how our mark never smiles in costume, but the evil ones do
People disliked this season? That’s crazy. The show juggles so much, it’s very impressive.
Although it’s not as great as Season 1, Season 2 is still very solid! In fact, there’s more emotional weight added in Season 2, thanks to the story focusing on Mark’s and Debbie’s struggles after Nolan left Earth.
@@halloweenfridayinvincible it seems grows up and is just maturing, I’m seeing people who think S2 was setup and only setup, but S2 imo is way more complete cause it bounces off season 1 so perfectly. It’s all an aftermath of Omni man S1, but time continues to move on so more shit still happens while they’re dealing with trauma from before. It’s a mature show and I thought they did a great job
the season was amazing, but man, i feel like the animation quality dipped like hell. often during scenes where characters just talk, their entire bodies held stiff poses while only their lips kept moving, which was really uncanny
I love this season and the emotional development of the characters. The finale episode was a bit abrupt. Maybe it needed another scene. But it was clear that Mark is afraid of becoming his dad in order to protect those he loves, and Omni man, his father is becoming more human to protect the ones he love. The line, "I miss my wife" was great
I actually loved this season, I agree with basically everything you said in this video, I loved the "slower" pace of the season, the fact that we really didn't have a build up (that imo contributes to the power of the finale because we don't have time to think, just like mark didn't). After he did what he did I genuinely felt mourning like pain. Not for Levy, but for the innocent part of Mark that very clearly died with his villain, although it arguably slowly died through out the whole season. It felt different in a good way and very VERY powerful to me.
Thank you for being one of the few that seems to get it lol. There's a reason why we saw so many alternate marks, and why they were all evil. There are so many people who argue that Levy deserved to die, which is absolutely not true and is missing the entire theme of the show.
Another great video! To us, the whole “trying not to be like my dad” thing feels a little weird because Mark doesn’t act like Nolan, he acts like a regular teenager with an extreme amount of power that he’s still getting used to. It would make sense to us if it was *just* Mark feeling that way and maybe some people compared them to get under his skin, but it feels like the show wants us to think that Mark is really starting to show his “Viltrumite side”. Like if someone did your mom (or someone else you care a lot about) like Angstrom Levy did Debbie you would almost certainly beat their ass the first chance you got, and if you’d only had super strength for a couple years you would definitely kill that person by accident at the very least. Tldr: Mark isn’t like Nolan, he’s just a teenager with extreme trauma and more power than he can control atm.
But that’s the thing. A regular teenager with an extreme amount of power is terrifying. If that kind of behavior persists then you could end up with a might makes right hierarchical society like the Viltrumites. Viltrumites represent humans who completely forego any sense of compassion in favor of strength above all else. They are completely obsessed with power that weakness is seen as a disease. Any hint of empathy or compassion is weeded out because to them it makes them powerless. When one has that much power, the weight of their actions has loads more consequences. Most people can lose control and be fine. But since Mark has the power to break the world he has to be more careful. He can’t just easily give in to his aggression. Especially because there is little to nothing on Earth that can stop him. He has to have more self-control than the average person. This is what the alternate Marks reveal about Mark. That deep down he can be just as violent as a regular Viltrumite and that he won’t always be able to control himself.
I think people dont understand that what Nolan did led to Mark having a moral compass similar to Batman and Spider-Man. He knows how powerful and potentially dangerous he is, why is why he consciously puts limits on himself. He knows that if he allows himself to kill, that will have a domino effect and he will graduallg grow more and more similar to traditional viltrumites. This is also why even though Anissa has him beat, he has no way of winning the fight, he doesnt even think about lying about agreeing with Viltrum. He would rather die "honourably" knowing he didnt break his moral compass, even if he knows deep down that pragmatically that was a very risky move
A thing- he acts like asshole in the comic and there is clear "I do is right so shut up" attitude while still showing empathy. Show just makes him moopy and not engage in casual jerk behaviour which got later reinterpreted as him becoming more like evil Marks.
@@mikhaelgribkov4117 we didn’t really see it as him being an asshole, more like he’s a teenager trying to figure things out on his own and doesn’t want the help/advice of the adults, though I can definitely see how you can consider that as him being an asshole
@@Ren_Davis0531 yeah, but having more power doesn’t automatically make you more like the people who only value power. It’d be different if after losing control he found himself enjoying it like a full-blooded viltrumite. There are more differences between viltrumites and humans than just their powers and abilities. Oliver is actually a perfect example, he *actually* starts acting like Nolan and it’s a problem.
Only problem with it was that it didn't really feel like a finale.
In retrospect, this season carries the theme of "How does one preserves their humanity over barbarism while responding to conflict with violence?". And if I go with the different answers that different moments of the comics have come up with : season 1 : by taking the violence from others. season 2 : by exercising restraint (oops, it didn't work) season 3 : by meeting out violence only on those who deserve it from a righteous man (oops, that doesn't work either) Viltrumite war : By using violence in service of protecting the homeland and this is where I'm at now, in the aftermath of the viltrumite war : You kinda don't actually, you have to let go of the violence and talk, negotiate with people. Excited to see where this goes next.
There is nothing better than a good superhero losing control and finally releases the DEEP down ANGER
This season did make me realize that just like in the gold rush, the money wasn't made by the miners. It was made by the shovel-salesmen. In the same way... In the worlds of Invincible and similar franchises... It must be really lucrative to be in the building supply business
What if the REAL VILLAIN was the Trauma we got along the way?
I mean that is the central antagonistic force in the show as the main thing the characters struggle in the season are coping with the traumatic events of first season.
Man, this is sooo on point. You just get it. Your comprehension skills and skills to understand deeper thematic patterns in a piece of media and then to talk about it are literally second to none. It literally feels like this is most likely what the creators intended too. Even the title of the episode based on the comics would feel like Mark's talking to Angstrom but when it is shown in the episode, when those lines are spoken, we realise mark was actually talking to himself that you were stronger than this, stronger than having to resort to killing, stronger than letting you dark side win. Even Steven Yun's acting emphasises on that part. It's absolutely perfect and is going to be age soo well when the new seasons come, kind of like with Civil War & AOU. Great video as per usual brother!
Very very beautifully put.
The Real villain was Amazon.
When a character wins the physical battle but loses the ideological battle. (Or vice versa) Hoo boy, that’s a juicy piece of storytelling 👍 love to see it
great essay, echoes my feelings on the season exactly
When I saw Mark trying to justify his killing of Levy to himself and eventually realizing he genuinely lost control, I was chilled. This is a guy fighting himself every day. Good stuff.
I can't believe this guy only has 100K subs. His videos are so well done and written
The only thing about the ending is that I wished it ended with him having small dialogue being stuck in that dimension. What happens later felt a bit too convenient the waiting for a 3rd season would set us in on how long Mark has been waiting stuck in that dimension.
I wasn't disappointed with Angstrom's treatment mainly because it never felt like the show was posturing him to be the end all be all big bad of the season. To me, he simply felt like one part of a larger equation. He felt more like a domino waiting to fall rather than an Avenger's level threat.
Was less of a direct conflict and more of an inner conflict and I think that's equally as important to explore.
Did you notice how Mark, his mom and his dad all had the same left eye blacked at the same time? Yeah exactly what you’re thinking… reverse Illuminati.
Nice work here- great video!
Agreed. Theres only one thing, the fact the mark gets beaten up almost every episode takes away the menace of his "dark potential". My first reaction to levy's defeat was "FINALLY A LEGIT WIN" and them "oh wait".
Yeah, he gets his ass whooped literally the entire season, except for a small win against the sequids (not even really, he actually ended up bringing them to earth), and then when he finally beats a real villain he loses control and breaks his moral code, increasing that internal fear that he may end up like his dad.
“That’s why they showed evil Invincible after evil Invincible, not to set up some future plot” *stares in Invincible War*
I’m just talking about the relationship between the finale & _season 2 itself_ here.
Shhhhh, no telling
I loved season 2 and the eve special... started tearing up when i heard Lance Reddicks voice Restbin peace king...
Great vid, and hope you get well soon!
Strong analysis. Seeing this season through the lens of Mark’s potential for darkness gives it a narrative unity that I thought was otherwise lacking.
I jumped back into it just a moment ago and watching them in quick succession made it feel like he was going on an uncontrollable rollercoaster. It made him feel like a flawed hero which is good because the viewer can connect with how he feels and it is human to feel like he did in a lot of the moments, so the finale made so much sense as he was chipped away and broken till he couldn't take it anymore. Which made the title card breaking away each episode make so much more sense.
This season was remarkable, much like the last. Great analysis, I agree with almost all your points. Well framed and well put together
the "i thought you were stronger" was pretty chilling. like he was talking to himself, the part of him that didn't want to be like his father. he thought that he was stronger than the rage and violent nature inside him. :0
This is my opinion on Angstrom Levy: From my POV when I watched the show Angstrom was a villain that Invincible created by being to eager to fight and thus destroying someone’s life. This season story is being shown from Invincible POV and just as Invincible forgot about Angstrom we did as well. It was honestly fun to see that we forgot about someone so important (I mean he traveles Universes) and he of course comes for revenge and almost destroys Invincibles life TL;DR: Season 2 is from Marks POV in which he forgot about Levy so we did as well.
Angstrom created himself.
@@Peasham if invincible didn’t interrupt the process there would be in theory no evil Angstrom
@@xduniolaki6894 Again, Angstrom chose to interrupt the process. If we're gonna go with accountability with Mark, we have to go with accountability for everyone there. Not to mention, Angstrom could've just.. told someone what he was doing, Robot faced no punishment for using the Maulers and I don't think any of the good guys or even the bad guys would've wanted to stop him had he told literally anyone aside from the Maulers.
@@Peasham your point is valid of course. Both of them are at fault here. My point is that still invincible went in mindlessly gun blazing and he got Angstrom as an enemy. Angstroms karma for doing that whole process without informing authorities on what he wants to achieve got his brain scrambled. Both of them didn’t think, just acted and it costed them both their morality at the end.
People said that season 2 was gonna be slower than season 1 but hit harder and it's a gateway to season 3, and imo it served it's role perfectly
I absolutely loved the ending, Mark managed not only to visit Batman and roast him, but then got his own Joker and "One Bad Day" all in one evening. That Omni-Man in him came out so strong that he even delivered the exact same beating that he received in the first season from his dad onto Angstrom. Absolutely powerful stuff, bring on season 3
This second half really made it feel like someone telling you about the comics on KZhead.
As someone who has read the comics, this season is definitely a big set up season for the bigger events upcoming. I like how they are putting more emotional weight in this season so that when those big events happen, they are even bigger and more emotional.
In a weird way season 2 reminds me a lot of The Last of Us Part II: both stories grapple with the consequences of the previous installment. Part II is all about Ellie (& Abby) dealing with Joel's actions from Part I and learning to overcome the pain he caused them, and season 2 is all about Mark (& honestly everyone else) trying to overcome Omni-Man's betrayal and the oncoming Viltrumite invasion. Mark, much like Abby in Part II, must not let his trauma turn him into the very monster he's trying to fight.
I feel like Ellie’s story is more about not letting trauma turn you into a monster. Of the two, Ellie is the one who gets the opportunity to change before getting vengeance and walks away from it. Whereas Abby fully goes all in and has to go on a Joel arc to walk away from it later. Essentially Abby became Joel to a tee. Right down to protecting a kid from the LGBT community in order to find meaning in life. Ellie recognizes the true source of her pain before she makes the Joel/Abby choice. She was able to stop before hitting absolute rock bottom.
@@Ren_Davis0531 That’s very true. I never thought about Abby’s WHOLE journey literally just being Joel’s (kind of weird the game never really has her introspect about that). Ellie really gets the raw deal, huh? Though, I made the comparison with Mark because he feels like he crossed a line that brought him closer to Omni-Man and Abby, like you said, fully crosses that and becomes Joel. But, Mark, like Ellie, probably has a chance at redemption.
@@k.a-l2735 I think it makes sense that Abby never reflects on her parallel with Joel. She didn’t know him as she only saw him as an object of fear. He was a monster. Nothing more. She wasn’t privy to the depth of humanity present within Joel unlike Ellie’s experiences. The goal of the parallel is for the audience’s benefit so that we can construct a more holistic picture of trauma, grief, and catharsis. Abby is incapable of recognizing her similarity with Joel because she stopped viewing him as a person. Ellie, on the other hand, is forced to confront the humanity within Abby and is allowed to understand where Abby is coming from. Even then, she still almost makes the same choice because she couldn’t properly process her feelings around Joel’s death and her survivor guilt. Once she realizes the true source of her pain, she is capable of stepping away and allowing Abby to live. In that choice, she breaks the cycle that Abby perpetuated, and in effect allows Abby to continue her more complete life with Lev and the Fireflies similar to Joel with Ellie in Jackson.
I loved this ending. It really gave you a sense of the emotional impact mark is dealing with. I can’t wait for season 3.
This is a solid perspective
Dude could have been the greatest hero of all worlds and instead chose to become a villain of one.
16 you mean
“I thought you were stronger” Now one of my favorite lines of all time because of how it was delivered and it’s double meaning
4:06 LMAOOOO Boy oh boy you’re in for a surprise
I’m aware of Invincible War - here I’m talking about what these alternate Marks accomplish in _this_ season.
Completely agree this is how I interpreted the series anyway, I think why there’s some confusion is because of that mid season break where the story was more thematic I feel people would’ve forgot all the subtle remarks about mark being like his dad in the first half of the series. However I feel like this series being more of a subtle story sets up a really good action packed season 3
just wait for season 3......... oh boy mark
To show so much and say so little, to have so many interesting ideas and do F all with them, This season does it perfectly
My brother and I skipped the waiting and started reading the comics. We both had similar feelings of this season and are really hoping that this season was more of a setup for future events to come. If that was the case, it was a solid season. We have really high hopes for season 3. You know, when it's released in 2 years...
I gotta say, this is an EXCELLENT analysis of this season, and goes to show how deep the show actually is, compared to what the general viewer sees on the surface.
From a filmmaking perspective, the ending of Mark vs Angstrom is blocked and framed very similarly to Nolan vs Mark. Only Mark is now in his father's position, crouching over someone lying beneath him, utterly unmoving. Mark is even on his dad's side of the frame (he's frame left, Angstrom is frame right). Both Mark in S2 and Nolan in S1 take a moment to look at their hands as they realize what they're doing. I think this is part of what makes it so uncomfortable. The show is very intentionally reminding you of last season's finale and drawing attention to how the script has been flipped.
Watching this video I’m realizing how much I agree with this. Even the fight on Thraxa when Nolan tells him he’s not fighting to kill, then we see him start fighting with more violent intentions and he easily overpowered Angstrom
Anyone who’s familiar with the comics will understand this is a massive setup season setting up key moments in the story and alluding to them in the finale. And its going to be very important going into season 3 depending on how they adapt the following story arcs.
definitely agree on the levy handling, but like others are saying I think even he would've been a lot more impactful with a normal release schedule. splitting into two halves can make some sense for really long seasons I guess but for a 10 episode season it's insane to wait 4 months and they only did it so they could get half the season in after they added ads and still not have to change the first episode release date.
Thank you for this video. Finally someone understands the reason Angstrom Levy exists as a villain to Mark and why it matters for Invincible. Two lines that go unmentioned which I think you should of mentioned was Rex to Mark in episode 7 telling him no one could of come back from what he had suffered through and Eve at the ending moment of episode 8 telling Mark he does not deserve this. This whole season was about breaking Mark and in the end it happened, is Mark truly Inv....
Hope you feel better soon!
Absolutely gotta agree, I don’t think i’ve ever felt such dread, fear, and hopelessness watching anything than immediately after Mark killing Levy
i think the weird part is how they didnt show levys body, they had no problem with showing mangled corpses in season 1 so it makes me wonder if its just trying to be less gorey or its a narative reason not to show the body, either way it felt less impactful that we didnt see how truly wild mark went on this man
narrative my friend :) You will see next season. All i can say that it is gonna be big.
They didn’t show his pancaked head?
You don't see it in the comic either, not until he has a flashback panel about it waaay later in the story
I felt like it added a level of isolation to Mark's situation. He's the only one who saw his outburst + the consequences. We're kind of being treated like his friends and family who know what he did... but we dont *know*
@@nima2542 that’s a good point. However, in the comics his head is squished like a pancake, and I still think it’s weird for the show to NOT show it tbh cause it adds to the weight and severity of mark. Cause once you see the body you finally realize just how far mark actually went. It was crazy
I think the main reason it didn’t click for so many people right away is because the release schedule made a lot of people forget about the inner battle Mari had in those early episodes. With the cliffhanger of Omni-Man being captured, and Mark being threatened by the Viltrum empire, I think many people focused on that part of the story during the months off, and not on Mark’s inner demons. If it were released regularly, the connecting thread would probably have been much clearer.
I gotta say this finale really worked for me. I'm a pretty emotional person, and I was already really attached to this story and Mark specifically as a character. He's a character that gets the psychology student in my brain really excited to watch, and this season was a great showcasing in how to properly push a character to their breaking point, and then some. We thought Mark hit his breaking point in Season 1, but Season 2 really uped the stakes on a personal level. For me I never cared about Levi (is that how you spell it?) as a chatacter because he was always interesting in a sense of what he represented. What he brought to the table for Mark's character arc was what mattered to me, so the Season 2 final episodes where its all brought to a head really were a gut punch. Very very well done finale, and loved your video.
Looking ahead to overarching themes in the story of how society deals with its villians - season 2 leans really nicely into it. Setting it up correctly for later seasons to land their own philosophical punches
Things only get worse for Mark from here. For those who don't know the comics, if they adapt these stories it'll prove that Mark Grayson truly is... In desperate need of counseling. *Invincible Theme*
Mark really has to face himself in many instances. Dark Mark would be the end of his Earth like it had been across the multiverse.
I liked levy’s performance and role in the story, but just as said it feels like he’s more of a tool for the plot to show how mark would react to an enemy who’s trying to rile him up and get in his head. Great video
This season was just a precursor for the absolutely insane events to come in season 3 and season 4
hope you’re feeling better !
Thank you! I am
I knew about the Invincible war for years and I didn't get to read it in depth. I was able to read up to when the Viltrumites got Nolan and read a head due to the comics being bought and I had to read what was out there. I like the idea of you being the only good one while most other versions of you chose wrong or became evil. This was almost seen in Multiverse of Madness but it didn't go that way.
The invincible war in comics is only 1 chapter so I really hope the show does it Justice. 8 invincible nuking all of earth should be way more than 1 chapter.
@@The-Legend-of-P it's not one chapter but spread through different on going series because DC and Marvel do that as well. They make the event crossover into other comics to get a different perspective from another character.
@@mandalorianhunter1 they do the invincible war in the other invincible comic series? Ig that’s fine but I still think the main Invincible war should be more than a slideshow chapter
@@The-Legend-of-P I'm talking about Imagine comics characters stories like two Marks appeared in Tech Jacket, one appeared in Spawn ect
@@mandalorianhunter1 ohhh ok ok 👍 I didn’t know image comics did that, all Ik are the spin-offs comics exist and stuff but that’s it. That’s super cool tho
Heard that after all this is when the series gets REALLY dark, can't wait for Season 3
Levi feels like a reverse fridge (which I’m calling a freezer). A fridge trope is a character who exists solely to be killed off and serve as another character’s motivation. It feels like Levi solely existed in this season to be killed by Mark at the end, in order to further his character. And thus a freezer.
i honestly liked this season more than the first. I think it was incredibly well written through and through. can't wait for season 3
5:00 damn that transition was cool af
It just left me wanting more