Controversial Debate on
There was recently a controversial @joerogan podcast where Graham Hancock and Dr. Flint Dibble faced off about the Ancient advanced civilization hypothesis. This episode was really embarrassing for Graham Hancock, showing how no actual evidence "yet" of this ancient Advanced civilization. When Graham tried to pull up evidence, it was shot down each time by Dr. Dibble.
Subscribe to @FlintDibble
Follow Dr. Dibble on Twitter X - / flintdibble
So, MythVision wanted to dig deeper with Dr. Dibble. We discuss..
1. Why the ancient advanced civilization hypothesis is intriguing.
2. Was Flint wrong for pointing out the racist tendencies of this ideas origins?
3. Is Plato's Atlantis a myth
4. Did Flint have any devastating points he missed while on Rogan's podcast?
5. How Mr. Hancock is using a "God of the gaps" argument.
6. Do we have positive evidence to suggest the ancient advanced civilization hypothesis is not true?
7. Older massive building structures prove they were "more advanced"?
Watch original discussion on @joerogan here.
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#mythvision #joerogan #grahamhancock
I grew up reading a lot of Science Fiction, and spent a good deal of my life hanging around Science Fiction writers. They are a group of people who are the LEAST likely to believe pseudo-science crap. I remember meeting a UFO enthusiast who was incensed that Science Fiction writers weren't interested in the UFO cult, and asked me why they weren't. I had to explain to him that these writers 1) know a lot about real science, 2) understand the difference between fact and fiction, 3) know that you can imagine all sorts of things for FICTIONAL purposes. Science Fiction stories are artistic thought experiments, not documentaries. The stuff that pseudo-scientists dream up is always lame, unimaginative and derivative. It fails to be either good science or good fiction.
Uh, but there ARE aliens though, or at least UFOs in the traditional acronymic sense. Documented on film, recorded on multiple sensors, with existence of the phenomenon now openly acknowledged by the US government. So there are UFOs, and they defy all known laws of physics. So all those sci-fi writers you hobnobbed with, who scoffed at UFOs, they weren't so smart were they? Probably why they were just writers, not proper scientists. No real scientist would cling to an orthodoxy simply because it was the orthodox 'non-kooky' belief. Scientific progress is a story of kooky ideas that were lambasted as nonsense, and then got proven by evidence. For example the Big Bang, that was a mocking derogatory term for the theory, by people who dismissed it. They were like "Oh ho ho, that guy thinks a 'big bang' started the universe, ho ho what silliness." But now it's in all the textbooks, this Big Bang. And they also have to change all the textbooks again now, and admit that UFOs do in fact exist, but we just have no explanation, at all, for how, why, what, or who they are.
Good point. The people who buy into this stuff are usually people who completely believed everything told to them before and never questioned anything. When they did find out that many institutions are "lying" to them, their paradigm of the truth was completely shattered. They then easily fall for grifters and this sort of stuff. You would think they would question everything, but they so desperately need to believe in something again and cling to this one even harder, because having your paradigm shattered twice in such succession is not something most people can mentally deal with. Most of these theories are pushed by intelligence agencies, it's in their original handbook. If someone is not going to take the official word then you give them this gibberish to believe so they never get to the real truth.
I don't know. Zechariah Sitchen's stuff is pretty decent fiction.
UFOs do exist, they've just been renamed UAPs so that it's less ambarrassing to the UFO skeptics. Strange that my comment about this got deleted, it must really be upsetting to someone somewhere, that UFOs do exist and are called UAPs now.
UAPs do exist though, so... not the best example of pseudoscience there.
It's really hard for people to admit they were grifted, when part of the grift is convincing them they were grifted by others to begin with. People don't want to admit that Russell, Graham and the others are lying just as much and using the same tricks that they convince everyone they are fighting against.
Do you think Graham believes they was a lost civilization? I can understand the tricks he uses, the harsh language against big archeology etc as a way to garner support and sales, I consider that deception but all sales are kind of deceptive in a sense. The tricks he could justify to himself as leveling the playing field. But if he does believe in this civilization or not I just can't decide. If he doesn't he is a good liar.
Ironic? My deconversion began after hearing a blurb on Joe Rogan about a book titled the Naked Bible, Written by a translator of Masoretic Hebrew. That began my journey that of course lead to Mythvision.
Glad to hear you chose reality over stories. I've heard the "Naked Bible" recently in a video somewhere. Might've been Aaron Ra possibly? Not sure. I'm gonna go check it out now
There was the "Naked Bible" podcast by the late Michael Heiser. Perhaps those other things are also associated with his work.
A few things that never get mentioned in discussions about Atlantis: 1. If Atlantis existed for hundreds of thousands of years, it would have spread over the entire planet and then out into the solar system. There would be evidence everywhere that this had happened. 2. Atlantean graves and coins would be found all over the place. 3. DNA evidence would be easily traceable to common ancestry from both sides of the Atlantic which the Atlanteans would surely have colonized. It is not. Native American ancestors clearly came from Asia. Was Atlantis in east Asia? I have never heard anyone say that. 4. It is known from geological studies that 90% of the Mid Atlantic Ridge has never been above sea level. The other 10% is Iceland. Does anyone say that Iceland is the remnants of Atlantis? Again, I have never heard any proponent of the Atlantis theory say that. If Iceland is Atlantis, then why is it not sunk like the rest of the 'continent'? And there have never been any unexplainable graves or mysterious artifacts ever found in Iceland -- or, for that matter, anywhere on either side of the Atlantic. Were all Atlanteans carried back to the homeland for burial and then their graves covered by the ocean when Atlantis flooded? That's ridiculous. Anyone can easily come up with a list like this with a few minutes of logical thinking. There was never an Atlantis.
If you dig into Hancock's books that's basically what he claims. He has a book trying to link Earth and Mars.
Rightly pointed out.
1: That's dumb, hardly anyone has said they've gone to space. 2: Atlantis was likely a North African civilization but the Sahara is too huge and deep to excave. 3: Look up RH- blood and how Amazighs AND Basques both claim to come from Atlantis. 4: Again, look up Mauritania, a nation that literally admits to have descended from King Atlas of Atlantis!
42:00 The cool thing about Göbekli Tepe is the sculpture hanging at the side of a T-pillar. That is outstanding. I don't think there is anything like it. It's not like scratching some drawings on a surface. It's a planned 3D object that is part of the huge pillar. That's some interesting anticipation or improvisation for a derailed ape. I think that we should call that monumental. A turning point in human development. A leap. From kids drawings to virtual reality. That sculpture is as good as it gets in advancement of culture. That's not throwing crap against the wall and see if it sticks.
Venus of Hohle Fels is 35000 years old
Scientist estimate that the earth is 4.5 billion years old. So is it truly possible to know with absolute certainty what the planet was like 100,00 years ago let alone 1 millions years ago? In the European dark ages people believed the earth to be flat and the center of the solar system and also had no idea that dinosaurs ever existed. Finding the first T-Rex and Mammoth skeletons forced long held views to be reconsidered. As you state, Göbekli Tepe , as well as the other Tepes in the region, are posing questions that are forcing a reconsideration of the established narrative by mainstream archeologist about ancient history.
my favorite, from nearby Sayburc, is the carving of a dude holding his penis while flanked by leopards. clearly this is a depiction of Maharg -- the Atlantean God of Auto-Eroticism.
@@chuckleezodiac24 Now that's funny, I have to see it. I can't believe I didn't notice that one.
Atlantis is an all-inclusive resort in The Bahamas.
And it's Spectacular.
Make that one of the most expensive all inclusive resorts in the world, but located in the Bahamas. lol. It's not cheap to go and visit Atlantis, either long ago or today. lol. (Wouldn't it be funny if the "old" Atlantis was just an All Inclusive resort for people on vacation like today? lol)
@@johannjohann6523 Lol. That might be a funny SNL skit.
I watched the whole debate, it seems like Hancock just wanted to always point to speculation, and when Dr. Dibble proved him wrong with actual facts and evidence, it was “You’re silencing me? Why are you silencing me?” It was awful!
Go to Bright Insight. This upload is garbage.
A grifter is gonna grift lol. And the whole "silencing me" bit is what his fans just eat up.
No, too many of Dibble's statements are misleading. if not logically, and in some cases factually wrong. For instance, his statement that there are 3 millions shipwrecks in the oceans may be a good estimate (something he got from Wikipedia), but there are only seven shipwrecks from the Bronze Age 2000 bce-ish to 1200-ish. There are and additional 22 "wrecks" off the Carmel coast near Israel, but the vast majority of those are simply rocks with holes in them and are assumed to be anchors from ships that sank nearby. It's important to understand that Flint seemed to want the audience to think that... "Well, if there's 3 million shipwreck, where are the ones from Atlantis?" In reality, the oldest shipwreck we have is 4,000 years old (and its nothing more than some pottery and metal ingots on the ocean floor); anything from "Atlantis," whatever that might have been, would be at least 3 times as old, and in water at least 120 meters deep. So no, Flint did not prove anything with facts. He did his best to obfuscate the real issues, not answer anything seriously and honestly.
@@dougmorrow746100%
@@EmeraldEyesEsoteric Jimmy is even ridiculed by the other Atlantis believers.
Rogan tends to be a weather vane and blows towards whoever is sitting opposite. Reference his podcast with Stephen Meyer.
I have been under the impression that when the volcano at Thera/Santorini blew off its top, that the resulting tsunami destroyed the Minoan civilization. References to the Minoan became legendary and resulted to a point to the legends of Atlantis.
Maybe. More plausible than a super advanced civilization that suddenly disappeared and took all of their material goods with them.
I can't imagine going on Rogan to debate someone in the ' Rogan friend zone '. It's actually pretty brave. Going in, knowing how it's Hancock's second home with millions of people being biased against you. Hancock starting to dump his personal grievances with you on the show. Having sycophants and haters seeking stuff to tear you down, etc. I hope his little channel will be rewarded for this .
Hancock insisted "no archeologist would debate him". Flint stepped up, and it was brave as heck.
Minor correction: The Cherokee were not mound-builders. Dibble didn't claim they were, but he definitely wants people to infer it from his knee-jerk criticisms of Andrew Jackson. Jackson was correct if he stated they were different cultures, although that would have no bearing on the situations he inherited as president. Academics criticize decision makers but never explain how they would have handled the situation better, or explain why they haven't fixed the many inequalities of today's culture.
Potholer54 is not an archaeologist but he has done a critique of Hancock that I think is worth watching.
Potholer54 is brilliant!
Yeah I saw 2 videos by him dealing with gunung padang and gobekli tepe on hancocks bs show David Miano on the world of antiquity channel also has numerous videos debunking pseudohistory rubbish
@@steventhompson399 Milo over on Miniminuteman, too!
Watching this right after Miniminuteman's video hilariously demolishing some Tiktokker on these same talking points
Saw that too.
Have you watched his 4 episodes debunking Graham's Ancient Apocolapse? Golden.
Why must people still believe in such nonsense, such as Atlantis?
von Däniken > Sitchin > Hancock
I’m not a big fan of Graham Hancock, but I do enjoy Randall Carlson. RC doesn’t make any outlandish claims. People misquote RC or take what he says out of context a lot. If you listen to RC, you learn the allegory of Atlantis. He makes the same claims as this guy, except he does wonder if the Azores had more islands above water at one time. No one really explores the Azores archaeologically, and the NOAA dive of the mid Atlantic ridge does raise some questions that haven’t been answered yet. Not because they aren’t trying, but because the dive wasn’t that long ago and science takes time.
I appreciate this man for humbling Graham. Something about him saying that my ancestors couldn't possibly have built the pyramids of Mexico without an advanced civilization helping them really grinds my gears.
He didn't say that.
If true, these would be your ancestors.
@@Evenflovv That's it! you got it. some people confuse others who talk about similar things with what Graham says. although he was on ancient aliens that probably didn't help. lol.
Dibble said Hancock said that. He didn't.
@@Evenflovv Where’s the genetics then? Jesus, y’all will believe literally anything.
Awesome presentation thank you so much. I didn't see the JR podcast with both gentlemen but will. Curious now
have jason breshears of archaix on your show
I doubt Jason himself would come. He himself said that he chooses where he wants to appear, and it's understandable because wasting time on people who won't listen is simply a waste of energy. And unfortunately for many people who aren't familiar with his material would see it as a way for him to avoid discussions. This channel argument/focus is that all myths and stories are the way of us humans describing our world and nature. Especially things and phenomena that we can't explain. But I might be wrong, I don't watch this channel that often. Only topics that interest me 😅 Before you take it in the wrong way, I am a big fan of his work and watch him regularly ✌️
I wonder how that would go. I've probably spent more time there than here, so I can't say how they'd disagree, but it seems like they would. Its interesting that they both disagree with Hancock's Atlantis though.
@CmdrCorn Disagreement would come from a position where Jason doesn't accept evolution and how much he doesn't trust mainstream archeology. That's my personal guess.
Unrelated but every time I see the mythvision guy, he somehow becomes more handsome.
If these lost advanced technology was imported to the less advanced civilizations where are the remnants? The mechanical saws, measuring devices, transportation technologies, etc. should be accessible where they were incorporated. How do these proponents explain the lack of evidence in the sites they migrated? If they taught the heathens these new methods there should be some evidence. Even if Atlantis was wiped out why did the technologies leave not survive when so many remnants of their existing methods are discoverable?
Pretending there WAS a more advanced group.... Perhaps they had accumulated vastly more knowledge, wealth and power than everyone else. In that privileged elite position they could hire whoever they wanted to build whatever city/fortress they wanted while keeping all of their fancy gadgets and technology to themselves in much the same way as us ordinary people don't have NASA launch pads and rockets in our possession. Think of the contrast in contemporary times between Zuckerberg's $100 million deluxe fortress buried beneath his Hawaiian island and people who live in unpowered huts without toilets along river banks. Let's pretend something happened to that elite group back in the past. They inbred to the point no one survived. A dispute broke out amongst them that ended up in a giant blood bath. Something eradicates them. All those who existed outside the fortress could have seen it as cursed after the loss of the inhabitants. Superstition may have kept them away. And the fortress was lost under the weight of time and nature. People who have incredible fortunes who live in stratas well above the ordinary person don't share because they don't care about other people. The more distance they can put between themselves and the ordinary person the better from their perspective. We are the dirty unwashed masses. They are the clean refined elite. That sort of attitude and segregation existed back then.
So a bloodbath that would somehow only damage the elites in a way that the unwashed masses wouldn't carry the massive (metaphorical) scars? If you think that an idea is worth believing just because it is theoretically possible, but with no evidence to back it up, the logical endpoint is holding mutually exclusive beliefs.
Graham was way more interested in talking about how silenced he is by the media than actually presenting evidence. Which is hilarious considering he has a Netflix special, regularly appears on the most popular podcast in the world, and has done numerous interviews with large publications.
Him talking about that is what gets his fans rolling lol
@@FaptainCalcon750 playing the Victim Card, exploiting the Anti-Authority zeitgeist & whining about Sinister Conspiracies of Gatekeeping Academics who are "Hiding the Truth of Humanity's Past" are his moneymakers!
He is talking mostly about the past but even this video proves him right, it's still happening. and it's not just him there were more people that have lost careers because of the same issue and the people I'm thinking of were right about what they found. its that others didn't want to be proven wrong, so they attack them. just like this. we don't need a world like that. put it to rest and allow others to have opinions. we don't need control freaks anymore!
Self proclaimed victims love embracing any mythology that they feel reinforces their position.
@@curtstacy779 Again, my dude, he has an audience of MILLIONS. No one is silencing Graham lmao He's just a big fucking baby
Flint Dibble is the man. I’ve been following him since he started responding to Hancock on Twitter after Hancock’s Netflix show came out. Awesome to see him actually get onto Rogan with Hancock (there was a lot of beefing back and forth between Hancock and Flint and other archaeologists on Twitter and it wasn’t so clear it would ever happen) and then blow up like this after search a great showing. I knew he had the facts, but I was a bit worried he might struggle going up against such a charismatic rhetorician. But Flint has really grown into public presentation since some of his older videos on KZhead - he delivers his facts with character as well. The world needs Flint Dibbles! Derek - get Dr David Miano on too! He was also potentially going to go onto Rogan to debate Hancock, but as he’s an ancient historian and Flint is an archaeologist, it was Flint who got the gig. But Miano is the other guy who has really been taking on the pseudo-archaeologist nonsense that is out there. His series of videos on KZhead debunking all this is amazing. Check out his KZhead channel and get him on. As an ancient historian, he may also have knowledge on some the the questions about literary cross fertilisation between different Iron Age Mediterranean societies that you were asking about at the end.
So many salty tears in the comments section from distressed Graham Hancock believers. 😅
Let's hope some of them see the light, and recognize they were influenced by a new age pseudohistory con man with a cult of personality because they didn't look into real science and history and got their info from hancock instead But I'm sure many will continue to bury their heads in the sand and cling with desperation and fervor to hancock and his recycled unoriginal Atlantis rubbish
Aristotle said that the tale of Atlantis was a teaching tool used by Plato. As for Atlantis being some super race, let's not forget that they were defeated by Athens.
And Athens existed at the time of Atlantis which funnily nobody argues about.
@@Skeptic-Atheist another excellent point. 👍
@@Skeptic-Atheist No it wasn’t! Athens formed around 3000-5000 BC, while Atlantis allegedly was washed away circa 9600 BC.
@@Seeker_Mediano they existed at the same time according to Plato, Atlantis was at war with Athens, Athens won the war and after Atlantis was washed away.
@@BLG80 Plato is revisiting a story he heard from Solon. The story about Athens fending off the Atlantians is somewhat suspect as Athens didn’t exist in 9600 BCE.
Someone else who's also challenged Graham, is Jason of Archiax. Jason is great at chronologically.
Understatement.... Archaix are more than great! He's EPIC!!! I wish for Dereck to interview Jason❤🎉
Also @Miniminutwman did a complete tear down of Graham’s “documentary.”
One thing that gets missed is that no one knows what exactly Plato meant by "Pillars of Hercules." The idea that he meant "Straights of Gibraltar" is a later concept.
As someone who doesn’t have a horse in this race, I find your characterisation of the debate extraordinary. I don’t think either side could make any great claims of their perceived outcomes tbh.
As someone who also doesn’t have a horse in this race, your failure to understand the difference between evidence and BS is extraordinary. Hancock has nothing but junk, speculation, and conspiracy, and numerous relevant experts from relevant fields all come to the exact same conclusion.
Derick, would you invite Jason Reza Jorjani to cover the topic of Atlantis as well? Thanks for that!
Go Derek! You're going from strength to strength. As an Ex-Hancock fan myself I'm always up to see his ideas picked apart. It was the moment I heard someone point out that there would be few precious metals in the ground if there had been an ancient advanced civilisation that I came to my senses
Pyramids built in subsequent dynasties didn't have the advantage of having a site like the Giza plateau, which is a slab of high quality limestone. There the majority of the building materials were within a couple hundred meters. Later pyramids were constructed of mud bricks cased in Tura limestone. They would have looked as impressive, albeit smaller. But when the casing stones were removed by looters, the mud bricks being exposed to sun, wind, water, didn't hold up like the 2 ton blocks of limestone at Giza. Younger Dryas was from 12,900-11,600 ybp. Preceded by Bolling-Allerod interstadial warming period. What alt-history type will never point out is that this warming followed by fairly rapid cooling was a repeating pattern throughout the last "ice-age". (around 2.1 million years). So, the Younger Dryas is not a cataclysm needing a devastating asteroid strike to precipitate, nor is it a singular, anomalous event.
To be fair, the reason why people say bigger stones, used in ancient buildings, are related to greater technology is just because it takes a lot to get giant stones on top of each other. One could easily think that takes better technology if it isn't properly explained. I have deconstructed so much in my life, but I do think the scientific and scholarly world needs to understand that sometimes people actually have some logical ideas driving their conspiracies or wild ideas. Humanity has so many ideas floating around because of social media. We are in desperate need of all the scholarly voices with proof, so we don't get caught up in believing fallacies, even if they have seeds of logic in them.
Potholer54.. does a number of rebuttals to Graham.
Great convo. Only criticism is the comment that hunters/gatherers spend "9-to-9" doing it. Agriculture fixed people at one spot and provided a more reliable means of getting their calories, but it also resulted in longer work hours. There still are 'hunters and gatherer' people today and they spend less time 'hunting' and 'gathering' than we do every day when we go into the office. And, they have tight family units with no sense of putting the elderly 'out to pasture' (so to speak), as we do when we send our elderly off to 'old folks homes'.
Thanks for this Derek! I really appreciate the variety of guests and subject matter.
Mini Minuteman did a great debunk of graham Hancock... Maybe he could come on here or the line someday 🤷
Milo is a hoot. Really great science/archeology communicator. I still had some small interest in Graham Hancock due to my lack of knowledge of the real archeology or context of the “evidence” Graham presents. Milo’s series he did debunking Graham completely destroyed any remaining interest I had in Graham or his “theories”. Now I just see him for the hack that he is screaming about being canceled from the top of his Netflix perch.
I watched that podcast the other day. I was thinking this channel would be perfect place to debunk such stuff
Hancock has about as much reality credibility as Lovecraft.
Lovecraft was a genius tho! He knew he was writing fiction at least.
I can't believe Graham Hancock they must have paid him a lot of money to sit with this
2:00 hold on! graham HAS mentioned his "showdown" with zahid nawass, hes tried to discuss it, its zahid who doesnt want to know, what coverup is flint talking about
Graham is a wakado. Wonder when Randell Carlson gets openly criticized about his theory for a massive flood at the end of the ice age 12000 years ago. These two happen to be buddies.
Thanks for exploring this topic Derek
I love it when you get archaeologist on to represent the actual evidence we have regarding our history & myths. It’s my favorite!💯💗
Am Dine Tah (Navajo) That was a Picture of " The LONG WALK " , Which was the relocation of My people, " the Dine Tah " (Navajos) from our homelands to the east of What is Now Eastern New Mexico... from Canyon de chey , and the whole 4 corners REGION , back when we couldn't write , so my people signed with Finger PRINTS ... THIS man is A GEM TO all of INDIGENOUS PEOPLES of before America's was even america... Navajo Nation in the Hogan .. peace 2 legged creatures and sometimes 4 legged creatures ..
Every time this subject comes up whether it be ancient aliens, or ancient Aryans, the indigenous people, mostly in the global self, are never giving credit for the Neolithic temples and the social structure of their communities. Like the five nation confederacy of these massive indigenous American ethnic groups that existed before the United States was founded whenever there was a conversation about culture and ancient civilizations. It’s always talking about the east and the west. Orientalism was this curious way of lumping everything from Egypt to Japan into one category. One ethnic group. There is never discussion about ancient African civilizations. Personally, I believe that, after 1000 years of the Arabic slave trade, followed by European slave trade every remnant of such civilizations have been totally confiscated or destroyed. It is only in language, culture, and DNA, that the relationship of pre-colonial ancient Africa can be connected to antiquity.
i did not know that there is a single person who actually believes that Atlantis was real, lol, man im not really in these conspiracy theorist spheres
Lol technically Graham never called it Atlantis. Lmao its alot like the theory of Atlantis.
@@209RichstaGraham is kinda squirrelly, he likes to hint at the woo explanations, but then retract to "I'm just asking questions!" when cornered. Sad because he's actually smart enough to be a good sci-fi writer or a science communicator, but he chose BS spreader.
You convinced me at the beginning of the video😂, your good Derek with the words for sure❤
I don’t get why these Atlantis fanboys can’t just enjoy it as myth and fiction instead of making weird claims of Atlantis being real history? Same with religions like Christianity and Islam.
It's always a myth before it's discovered. look at Troy and so many other things that were wrong. so it's usually a matter of time and it changes. the bad part is the careers that have been destroyed because people can't take criticism. and now we have a new one starting here bravo you idiots. just allow opinions that is all that's asked. that's not too much to ask for.
I don't understand why it is so difficult to believe that a functioning society, its people, and it's land, could become engulfed in water after an earthquake or tsunami or an asteroid/ comet strike...?
I didn't watch this episode. Because I watch Joe Rogan. I don't accept that the atla atlantean myth has been disproved. Your guest simply repeatedly said the same things we were taught in school dah
@@Fluffysweep Troy disappeared and became a conspiracy without all that. lol
@curtstacy779 I don't understand your reply.. If there was a localised flood caused by a comet or whatever, then it's fair to see that civilisations can disappear.. I don't have a bone in the fight, I couldn't give a monkey's if Atlantis is real or not, but as someone interested in history, I can recognise that there is many places on Earth that used to hold a large body of water and so therefore there must squally be places that NOW holds a large body of water that didn't before.?
Going to have to watch both of these tomorrow. Splendid entertainment thank you
Darn! I heard that Dale Gribble was on the show but it turned out to be this guy.
Acadamia taught me Troy never existed and then they discovered it. That's not to say I believe Hancock, but the experts need to realize they do get it wrong sometimes.
How old are you?
Yes they do get it wrong, until proved wrong.
I mean... Troy was discovered in the XIXth century
Now the books say it was discovered in late 1800s by Schliemann, but that's not what they said in late 1980s. Even today this point is argued as Schliemann was not a trained archeologist and what he claimed to be Troy they now say was not Troy and that Schliemann dinomited that part away, but I can assure you many beliefs have changed since I was in collage in 1987. As a philology student I was also taught that annunaki meant princely seed, now they say those who came from heavens to earth? The point is, opinions change and books we are taught out of evolve and even what is believed today we would be foolish to think is 100% accurate. Every year we discover new cities, especially since the advent of new technologies that can see further down..it is a beautiful thing, but imo, quite arrogant of any professional in the field to claim with absolute resolution these are the facts. I also remember being taught things about our planets that have changed...so yes, they can now say in my daughters class that Troy was discovered in late 1800s by a non archeologist, but in the late 80s say that is was claimed, but not proven and rather proven he was a con artist.
"Academia" in this context (a corps of trained, professional archaeologists using scientific methodology) didn't even _exist_ when Troy was discovered. The "archaeology" of that era was basically posh treasure hunters from European landed gentry writing about the stuff they found. Archeology as a systematic field of scientific study developed later. This is like saying "Academia taught me that jet engines didn't exist back in 1900, then they were proven wrong in the 1940's. So that proves they're hiding antigravity flying saucers from us!"
I personally think a city Atlantis did exist. The _Richat Structure_ / _Eye of the Sahara_ fits the geography and size perfectly. From satellite view you can tell a flow of water destroyed the whole region down to bedrock. Salt is found in all the low parts including whale bones and fossils. Just because there is myth surrounding the legendary city does not mean a city didn't exist at all. The story of Jesus is almost complete legend and myth yet the guy most likely existed, was crucified by Rome, and his followers believed he ascended to the heavens. Likewise, the Richat Structure is the most likely location of Atlantis and some cataclysmic event wiped it out.
... you watch Bright Insight too, huh... ?
@@drnobody418 lol. Yes I do. I am fascinated by ancient civilizations and megalithic structures. I started watching _Bright Insight_ prior to my deconversion from Christianity a year and a half ago. Jimmy Corsetti sold me on the Richat Structure being the site of Atlantis along with the old maps that show the Sarah desert with jungles and rivers. One might call that _evidence._
@@drnobody418 I also worked with granite and marble at my last job for five years and the old stone found at the ancient sites look like they were cut and bored with giant diamond blades and bits. I can't imagine it being done any other way. My personal opinion (without evidence) is that advanced civilizations have reset a few times in the last 200,000+ years during global cataclysmic events and the evidence is long gone and rusted to dust. I also have another super wackadoo theory... I've wondered if there was a way for rapid shifting of the tectonic plates during a global catastrophe. When the continents are merged back together the megalithic structures are actually close together. I find it hard to believe similar architecture and construction took place thousands of miles apart from each other separated by ocean. But maybe...
It's way too big, it doesn't fit the location just outside the Straits of Gibraltar, it would have been even more land locked back then than it is today and pottery has been found there but no Atlantis.
@@icypirate11 You don't have to imagine stone being cut and bored in another way (i.e. without advanced diamond-tipped machine tools). You can _see_ it done another way on KZhead by watching Scientists Against Myths and SGD Sacred Geometry Decoded. It's not as if we're finally about to enter the Stone Age now that we have power tools.
You dominate the conversation far too much. You have to let your interviewees have the floor.
Flint if-you-see-what-I-mean Dibble
Mr Dibble you have me except for the talk of Spanish colonialism and stakeholders and that entire ideology. It is okay to acknowledge that what Graham is doing is a stretch without baking an entire ideology in with it
1. In Criteas and Timerus Atlantis was long forgotten. In Laws, the Deluge was considered common knowledge. 2. Hancock maintains that archeologists are hiding history and not following flights of fancy. In the 1800's the field of archeology was conducted as Hancock wanted and it was pathetic. There are hundreds of books about non existent ancient civilizations and giants that were found by archeologists. There is no evidence from any of this. Only when archeology started to follow scientific principles did it become a serious field of study. Archeologists have behaved like Hancock far longer than they have behaved like scientists. 3. In his Netflix show he interviews an archeologist on Cappadocia and he listens and doesn't challenge what she is saying, then when she is off camera he just says now imagine if it was much older and made to escape the Younger Dryas meteors. He offers no evidence, completely ignores the archeologist and just launches into a flight of fancy as fact. 4. With all the deluge wouldn't it be a bad idea to go underground to escape the water...
I haven't heard this episode of Rogan's podcast, or even watched Rogan in a while, but I'm not sure he's the type to "debate". I usually see him as the type of interviewer who asks probing questions to get more interesting thoughts out of his guests. Judging simply by the fact that this conversation was induced by their conversation, I'd say he did a good job of furthering the conversation, and possibly highlighting some ideas that were overdue for rebuttal.
he tried to be a moderater. he moderately did an okish job.
I love the Atlantis Myth - but l also love evidence - it's a hard one - romance vs ...
Can someone explain to me how the 2006 version of “300” was an allegory for the Iraq w@r? Were the Spartans supposed to be Iraq? Serious question. I mean why can’t it just be about the Battle of Thermopylae?
One day people will debate whether California ever existed.
I think it’s a Shrodingers’ cat thing. California did and didn’t exist.
It's Florida cuz it's probably going to be submerged under water in the distant future.
California was also named after a mythical island located west of Spain in Spanish stories.
@@shanegooding4839 The island of California was supposedly inhabited by a tribe of warrior woman that brought in outside men for reproduction only, according to a pirating fantasy novel of the 16 or 17th century (??).
It's not about a particular city/state existing, it's about a civilization way more advanced than hunter gatherers existing 13000-11000 years ago and the counter argument is that we have thousands upon thousands of evidence of hunter gatherers from that time but not a single one from this advanced civilization, while it should have been opposite if it was really the case.
I remember reading Chariots of the Gods and being gobsmacked as a 15 yr old in like 1972'. Then I did further research, went to college, and learned about what we really know and how, who, and where to go for the facts. All in a decade or two before the genres resurgence. In the early days of You Tube I watched pseudoscientific videos and other forms of woo woo for fun and entertainment. I love a good yarn as much as the next guy. But as more and more people started to mistake this stuff for real science or history I stopped, because I didnt want to contribute clicks for nonsense that people might actually believe.
@@seant8781That's an impressive amount of conspiracies packet into one paragraph.
@@adamcosper3308 He said stories or myths. do you really need to have the desire to attack the kid? He didn't say anything about a conspiracy. he is talking about the stories that have been out for a long time. you don't have any room to talk when a government comes out and says UFO's are real. the ultimate conspiracy theory turns out to be something real. lol. give it up.
@@curtstacy779Because stories and myths are just that.... Myths. So taking myths as facts i may as well believe in the Wendigo right?
@@seant8781 A reputable person? And you name someone tied to the formation of the CIA and who spoused propaganda and lies. It's great there are so many people who do question things, but you so easily buy into the planted conspiracy stories, ones that have been around for nearly 80 years now. There's a reason Byrd gave a crazy story and it's not what you keep seeing KZhead documentaries about.
@@209Richsta lol. you need proof for it to be a fact. most of history is someone's assumption based on stories and items found very little to no fact. no one said to take them for fact. they said there could be a possibility of something more. so watch for more. you are relying on things you've heard from other people and lumping them all together into your conspiracy theory you are creating. no one knows anything for sure unless you were there yourself. and even then people are not documenting the truth. they are documenting their opinion they want to spread. grow up, others can have an opinion. lord knows the experts had it wrong so many times. follow who you would like quit pushing your opinions on others.
" Conspiracy Theorist " yeah Derrick why don't You start with your mythvision logos the eye the one eye and the hand symbolism I believe ...
There is this ex GM engineer that lives in Flint MI and he moves several ton stones by hand, by himself with no equipment
It's alot easier to take this guy seriously without the hat xD! All jokes aside it was a great conversation and so was this one! cheers!
Star Wars starts with the phrase "A long time ago, in a galaxy far far away." That's such an interesting piece of info, that the events of star wars are being recorded elsewhere and being viewed as ancient history.
I am sorry that I ever in the 90’s spent a hot minute listening to Hancock. We know better. My fault. I’m fixed now.
I have to disagree a little. Check out the Susquenhanna backstory from them. Redheaded giants invaded and the indians barely won and they let the survivors who followed the tribal laws join the tribe and they taught them building techniques and some fairly large offspring like Shaquille Oneil or HUlk Hogan size. Anyway they would part of the tribe at that point so a claim of giants built this indians is half true and would be a false reason to confiscate lands. There were just too many reports from at least afew honest people about finding large skeletons and the state or the smithsonian taking them away and now they dont exist. Of all the reports at least a few have to be valid. On atlantis if you read the plato he says they fought the greeks and were a warlike race but no mention of any substantially superior weapons, so where that came from I dont know. SO if thats right they would be someone the greeks fought before they were classic greeks(1500bc ish right) so not that old, not 12000 years ago. He never said tartaria but he wanted to. Yeah thats a psyop, althoug it did exist just in asia. A guy who has actual history of it is ancienthistoria channel. 3 debunking it pretty well are static in the attic, aewar, and wooden nickels. I like an open mind but some of this stuff, the mainstream angle just pretends it not.
Yeah, but what really happened?
I love this Dibble guy! Very sensible. A right and proper nerd! My kinda peeps Kudos Flint!
What's he think about octopus?
I believe the Spanish entered United States looking for the 7 lost cities of Gold, when the Muslims entered Spain in the 700's, 7 cities along the coast left with all their gold and was never heard of again, that's who they were looking for, nothing to do with Atlantis, A DeLuna was 2nd in command, I'm married to a DeLuna, who are from where they entered America, DeLuna was the smart one who came back, he knew it was a wild goose hunt.
I love it. Thanks for standing up for reason.
I often say that I'm an Agnostic Atheist against all but one god. In the case of YHWH, I have an actual belief that He was invented and shaped by man over time by people and is a product of the cultures that He existed in.
Funny, he brings up Troy. Archeologists dismissed it as a myth until an enthusiast businessman went and found it.
yes. another example: theres was a pro thalidomide consensus until a lone american (canadian actually) female doctor went against the medical establishment on both sides of the atlantic. Frances Kathleen Oldham Kelly.
Funny how minds can change when presented with actual evidence.
The debate was fantastic well worth 4 hours of my time, and learnt a great deal about flints work. Ive been wanting someone to take down Hancock for a while now. Graham seems like a nice guy and genuine.. however 😂. when he writes books making claims he is stepping into an academic arena, i know first hand how brutal ones peers can be. Frankly i'm amazed at how Hancock can bring his hypothesis and expect peer review to be "nice". It's either naive or playing the victim card.
Valid peer review does not include personal slander as white supremacist, though.
@@abelbabel8484 but he was not slandered as a white supremacist. Academics are been critical of those who use bias sources and portray these as fact. They point out the bias of these sources have been known for decades. Anyone can use them or cite them that's not the problem, the problem occurs when these sources are not critically examined and yet the conclusion is nevertheless used in support of an argument. In other words Hancock should of said why he believes these sources can be used as evidence knowing there problamatic nature.This is common practice in academia. Hancock never mentions the underlying assumptions of Spanish colonial mythology which is actually known to be fraudulent in both central and south America and the Philippine islands. Flint has said he doesn't think Graham is a white supremacist and nobody does except journalists who don't know how to read academic criticism and mistake it for motive of Graham Hancock.
Great interview! Very informative.
I love archeology, but I also realize that archeology is not the one indisputable version of historical truth. For example, look at how genetics disproved the archeological myth of the "Celtic invasion" of England. Another archeological myth was the dolichocephalic "PaleoIndian" race. Genetic analysis of Kennewick man (and other so-called paleoindian fossils ) proved that he was genetically ancestral to modern bracheocephalic Native Americans and not from a separate, earlier race. Skull shape evidently changed over time showing that the physical evidence does not tell the entire story. My point is that if they were not proven wrong by hard science archeogicalists might be calling genetecists pseudo-archeologists too.
My division brought out the movie theater to watch 300 before our deployment to Iraq and it was presented as an allegory for the Iraq war.
This guy has impressive resume. Why has humanity always had to fill a need for mysterious conspiracy theory type nonsense? It’s just a neat escape I guess. Sucks when it confuses us later when we read it all out of context for its own age time
Graham has some really interesting arguments. Most of which are up for debate. Sometimes archeologists are just like any other field of study, they dont want to have their narrative changed. Kinda like the government, dont completly trust anyone with the ability to influence the masses. do your best to study many diff points of view. Dont be dogmatic.
But that's the issue with people like him. The only good argument he has, is that people should be open to diverging argument, and he uses it as an attention grabber and defence against mainstream archeology instead of actually having good arguments.
"really interesting" = entertaining fiction. anything is up for debate, that's how science works. Graham refuses debate and has no interest in scientific discovery. Every archaeologist dreams of "changing the narrative." as does every scientist. That's how scientists get published and get famous and win awards. by changing the narrative. The person who doesn't want to change the narrative is Graham Hancock because he makes MILLIONS off of people like you who only care about being entertained. You have no idea what you're talking about.
Look. I think it's rare that Hancock argues in good faith. The man's a grifter. And his grift is: "they're trying to *SILENCE ME* " Joe Rogen puts an aggravating number of those people on his podcast. While I do agree that we should not be dogmatic, multiple archeologists and environmental scientists have torn his arguments to shreds using tried and true methodologies that aren't showing signs of needing to change. He doesn't have a methodology. He just uses whatever seems immediately convenient for his pre-concieved conclusion and then just gins up scenarios to say "well, it's not impossible!"
@@skyinou I think it's fine to be open to other ways of thinking about things. How the pyramid was constructed, all the stories from the indigenous tribes all of the world have said they were helped by other advanced species. I'm not saying I believe in that, but I don't just say that's ridiculous. We know about. 001 of the information of the universe. The powers that be tell the story I think we should listen to the little guy also. Example. Let's just trust in the Roman world who curated the bible and told u this is gods word and burned up everyone else's narrative that couldn't speak up because they didn't have the power. I'm not saying he is right but I think there is more to be seen and stay agnostic on some of these issues
@@skyinouNo, that is not the only good argument he has. And that argument is true. Archeologists and Egyptologists gate keep. Which they should.
The date of the destruction of Atlantis corresponds around the time of the younger drias which ended the ice age. That’s what I find compelling. The idea that there was a civilization that was completely wiped out and that it’s the basis for a lot of ancient myths is a fun theory that is plausible. Humans have been around for 300,000 years! It sounds ridiculous to think humans just started creating civilizations 6000 yrs ago.
I don’t think this crowd is going to listen to your reasoning. People have a hard time being open minded.
Just because it “sounds ridiculous” doesn’t mean it is ridiculous. There is literally zero solid evidence of such a civilization ever existing, then being destroyed and pushing humanity back to hunter-gatherers. The only “evidence” is crap.
@@ryanrestivo4270 maybe.. I consider myself a skeptical believer. I think reality is mysterious and there is waaaaaay more we don’t know than we do. But I also take science seriously and try to make sure what I believe isn’t bullshit
I mean it’s not an unimaginable stretch by any means I agree. And it’s almost certain there were older civilizations than 6k years ago. They’re just so old most of it lost and they probably didn’t have writings for us to find or wrote on perishables. But some claims of Atlantis are kinda out there
how is it ridiculous? no evidence agriculture existed before 10000 bce, so no way to support a large sedentary population to form a civilization.
derek do you know that lord of the rings was written from persian myth/ history scripts !?
5:00 great illustration of Atlantis as a forgotten America in the future. Made me think about Charlton Heston yelling at the Statue of Liberty 😂
My thought on the archeology of the past few hundred years. It appears that this massive quest began a couple hundred years ago, and various nations conducted the research, many of them trying to fill in the gaps of their own understanding. Many started with various preconceptions and tried to fit the findings into their preconceived notions. I saw one video that plots all of the megalithic structures of the massive stone blocks into a circumference of the earth that is not the equator. It is possible that some of these structures, the walls, you know, were built prehistory. There is also a number of folks who believe that there were Africans who were part of a civilization that predates anything we know. It is possible that we can only see back about 12,000 years due to natural cause and effect (ice ages?). I don't buy the whole Atlantis story. It may have been greatly embellished. But there was a time when sea levels rose rather quickly and significantly, such that many coastal civilizations were lost. And we know from the fall of the Bronze age that entire civilizations can come and go, and their knowledge lost to history. It took a thousand years after the bronze age collapse for those civilizations to regain their former glory.
Maybe smaller cultures vanished. But then it's to be expected, but an entire civilization that is global and requires agriculture to sustain such a thing.. nope the evidence simply doesn't and can't contain this narrative.
My big beef with Flint is I liked the look of him wearing a suit two sizes too big and the quintessential archeologists’ hat he wore on JR but he did not wear today. Very sad.
😂
Ehhh.... that a hard ehhh to all this.
Thank you for giving my comment some thought. About us utilizing stories throughout history to bring us to where we are now. We need to know they are stories, myths, tales etc. Not be told they are from the ether or words from a being no one can give a handshake to. Who controls minds or is our species daddy. How many chromosomes do we have in common with other creatures on our planet? I know. If you don’t..please learn something. Do we all bleed red? Do we all eat, shyt, sleep? Look. All you have to do. To all those who fantasize about these things…if you ever wonder…do some research. If you are good being where your at. More power to you. I love all of you. Even those who choose stories as a way of life. Just dont do extreme things like killing others and I don’t care what it is you believe in. I might even ask questions out of curiosity.
Before I listen to everything, I'm going to just comment that I'm a Mythvision fan that also is a Graham Hancock fan. I don't need to agree with all of someone's points to enjoy their work. I've even cringed at some of Hancock's replies on Twitter thinking he invites further attacks. But my overall opinion is that he's a journalist slash author who has an ability to string together pleasing travelogue style narratives. I sometimes feel like people try to peer review him like he's an academic and he's not.
Yeah, but the problem is that he’s constantly insulting & denigrating real archaeologists who bring actual EVIDENCE, while all he brings is junk & speculation. So what if he tells a fascinating story, when he’s spouting BS?
If you are going to bring up science be prepared to have people counter your arguments and when you have no evidence to tuck your tail between your legs until you dig up some evidence that will withstand scrutiny. There is no difference between Hancock, Von Dannikan, and L R Hubbard.
Isn’t Atlantis an homage to the deluge?
Even though I don’t think Flint made a good case for his side as his main arguments were very flawed since they did not look at the time period that Graham claims for his civilisation( lead, seeds,…) or underwater preservation which is extremely context dependent. I do agree with him that most evidence points against Graham’s narrative. But he should have stuck to undeniably evidence against an agricultural civilisation like his comment which most people missed that large scale agriculture was just not possible before the younger dryas due to CO2 levels being too low.
The Edfu text Look up the “SHBTW” they are they 7 sages Mythvision is very aware of. Also the Egyptian OGDOAD the city of 8 or town of 8, these are the 8 sages that assisted Thoth to invoke knowledge. The OGDOAD are the 8 gods. These are THoth plus 7 this is fun
Is he here to accuse everyone who disagrees with him of being white supremacist here too?
Agree. This dude is a gatekeeper
ah, the thin skinned folks with a nagging worry that what others are calling them might be true. So better attack everybody by calling them woke.
Funny how tons of white supremacists love Hancock’s works though… hmmmm… wonder why…
Can't say I'm suprised to see a social justice archeologist
Sorry, but Flint seems to be ignorant of Greek/Minoan history. The Atlantis "myth" is a combination Minoan, Mycenaean and history (the part about the good Atlanteans is the Minoan, the part about the corrupt Atlanteans was the Mycenaeans, and the Atlanteans who invaded Greece, Egypt and the Levant and the east from the west were the Sea People.) And the possibility of an ancient civilization 9,600 BCE, is a long shot, but not impossible (and there is some evidence that there was.) Atlantis as a blended history makes much more sense; remember, Plato lived between 800 and a 1,000 years after these real historical events, and would not have had detailed records... just plenty of interesting stories. So no, Atlantis is not ONLY an allegory. It has allegorical elements, to be sure, much like the "Trojan Horse" was most likely a battering ram (shed like body, constructed from the remnants of the destroyed Greek ships, covered in wet horse or cow hide to protect from flames, the actual "ram head" itself, perhaps shaped into a horse head [the Trojans were big horse fans] and Greeks hiding under the shed's canopy to break down the gate.) An allegory about how clever and sneaky the Greeks were but wrapped in some interesting elements of historical reality. Oh, and by the way, I have two good friends who are Egyptologists, and they and most of their friends agree that Hawas is a total and absolute jerk.
Yeah, holding up Hawass as a shining star of academy is kinda weird what with the whole corruption scandal and his ties to the Mubaraks.
Excellent conversation!
Lord Bacon, welcome the Earl of Sandwich and Lady Douche Bag. Sorry, couldn't help myself.
FANTASTIC EPISODE ❤🤘🏻❤️
Atlantis is most likely real. The idea that we haven’t found archeological evidence of a city submerged into the sea doesn’t surprise me.
Lolololol
I see what you mean...
I was a fan of graham Hancock k until my husband and I watched his Netflix series. It was embarrassing and cheesy af. We literally lol’d
I don't know why Joe Rogan always tries to defend the woo woo people on his show its annoying.
I just realized he is today's Art Bell.
Probably because a majority of his listeners believe in woo.
The sad thing is, Rogan is big enough to have the top minds in every field on his show, but he mostly prefers the grifters and nutter butters.
@@joe19912 He argues with anyone who is in line with the scientific consensus. Just watch him with all the UFO nuts and Michael Shermer he just goes after Michael like he's the nut job and ufologists are telling the truth. Its nonsense.
@@joe19912 Well, the people who are honest and are knowledgeable in their fields push back on the bat guano.