Tyvek vs Zip - Is Zip a Failure Waiting to Happen? CONTROVERSIAL VIDEO
2019 ж. 18 Шіл.
632 746 Рет қаралды
Tyvek vs Zip is a question I get all the time. In this episode of the Build Show I’m going to break down a video that seems to show a pretty leaky Zip System installation. Let’s see which system is the best and if either one is a failure waiting to happen!
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It is repugnant to see industry sponsored studies; DuPont, I believe, like many other industry sponsored studies will lie to our faces; they really undermine our intelligence and trust. We need to always ask ourselves who is sponsoring a particular study and if there is a conflict of interest; We should not have the airplane builders tell us the airplane is safe just because they say so. Or pharmaceutical company test their own drugs and claim they are safe an effective without a truthful independent study. This is another great episode by Matt. Thanks.
Brought to you by Pfizer!
It is not safe to assume independent studies will be truthful and not have conflict of interests (e.g. Andrew Wakefield;s MMR study).
So don’t trust any corporation selling anything. Good advice.
DuPont family is tight with the big guy
Dupont created chemical weapons for the Nazis.
Absolutely love that you address "Ad Issues" that happen on your videos. Shows how much you care about your followers and their leaning of the products you use.
ZIP is less forgiving when it comes to install and you must use their branded (3M) tape. Consequently it's why you almost never see production builders use it. Production builders want the cheapest code min OSB and housewrap they can get. Also the nailing schedule for ZIP-R is just crazy because the interior facing foam causes it to lose racking resistance
Well done Matt, addressing every issue that was misleading in the slander add. Love your videos! Thank you for sharing your knowledge!
Matt you are a true asset to the building industry, old school talent & integrity combined with open minded forward thinking in modern materials & techniques. And the fact you are willing to share this with us, a true gentleman you are, much thanks!
Thanks for this Matt - really great stuff. This ‘bar’ (height) keeps changing - putting framers and builders (and window suppliers) at odds. This really helps
Matt this is PRE siding. The siders show up and drive 200x the fasteners right through either product. Sometimes missing the framing and pulling the nail. Hole, right through the "watertight" system. This is a good discussion but has to include the finished product. I wanna see the shooting range test to simulate the Detroit abandoned suburbs to see if zip or tyvek wins.
After years of watching the Build Show, I just used Tayvek commercial D with cap fasteners to wrap my home addition. I was concerned with leaking fasteners so I tooled a dab of window sealant over every single cap. It’s time consuming but it’s given me a little piece of mind.
I’ve never used zip but been curious about the differences since the crew I run with uses tyvec. I feel like I saw a lot of negative tyvec videos but seeing this makes me realize that it is a somewhat level playing field. Thanks for the video. This really helped split the differences for me.
The zip tape is awesome. One guy used it to patch rust holes on his truck and it's still stuck fast after years. Used it to patch ripped pants one day on the job. Even after working the whole day and sending it through the washer it still held up
Matt, I am really surprised you do not have more subscribers. Your videos are high quality with top notch information. I have been in the industry on and off my whole life around the nation and your advise has always been sound. You final product (homes) is one of perfection.
Matt, I’m 70, a still active carpenter (with a lot of experience in several other trades, of course) -and have either general contracted or completely built with my own labor about 40 houses. Your videos are- hands down- the best entertaining , edited, informative, intelligent and just plain likable ones I have ever seen regarding construction, architecture and inside tips on house construction. I have great respect for what you do here. Amazing. Thank you.
Hope youre still going strong, man. Id love to sit down and have a beer with you, learn some things and hear some stories. My goal for retirement has always been 70. Keep it up old man, guys like us (though im 27 at the moment, just started my own LLC) make the world go round.
@@scumbaag Start a hefty investment strategy now with your own company and you can retire in your 50's.
Please tell me you are in Virginia. I have some jobs for you haha
Great video as always. As someone mentioned in a earlier comment, applying the siding will create many more holes in the sheathing. What's not mentioned anywhere in the video or comments is the importance of a proper rainscreen; a small air gap between the housewrap and the siding to allow any water that gets past the siding to drain down quickly, and ideally some air circulation to allow quick drying. This is even important than the choice of a (properly applied) housewrap and there is a strong consensus about the need for rainscreens among building scientist. Most houses I see built in my area (New England) these days involve fibercement nailed directly over the sheathing without any gap for the water to drain or dry. In airtight and well insulated modern homes (a good thing), that's a recipe for failure.
So little water gets past siding,that this gap,hard to achieve, is wasteful.We know what works already..really not looking g to improve that minor aspect,if it's even there!
Thank you! You have answered a major concern we've had regarding plastic caps, not to mention the confirmation of products.
For what it's worth I've not seen any of those ads before your videos. Also, your channel has led me to learn about building science including the Building Science Podcast where I can get even MORE information. Keep up the good work my man, I hope to own a home that would make you proud!
I love how much effort you put in! Have you ever done a video about your testing facility? Ideally with an overview of the results of these tests? I thought I had seen all your videos, but can't find that one.
Matt you're always on top of it!
Thanks Matt! Because of your videos, I just met with a rep from Huber this week! I actually mentioned your videos to the rep when he asked where I was seeing this product being used. Thanks for clearing up this issue. I have seen the attack adds lately and was beginning to feel uncertain about using the zip system. I have been building for about 13 years and your videos have changed the way I view my responsibility as a builder. Keep up the great work sir!
I could be wrong, but I think the only issue people are coming up against is that they aren't filling the nail divots. If instally right, it looks like a great product
Thank you for taking the time to compare these two technologies. Very helpful Matt!
Matt, Thank you for the video very helpful. I'm still preaching for guys around here to watch your video.A lot builder's around here think the tyvek is a complete water proof system. Thanks again keep the video's coming please!
A great, clear and concise analysis of "pseudo-scientific" testing of competing vapor barrier products. You have a great channel with useful information and a high level of professional integrity.
I've built one house with zip, and was at first skeptical. It seemed tedious and extra sometimes, but I think if I build my own house in the future I'll use Zip, unless technology has surpassed it. We used Sikaflex in sausage guns on the over penetrations which seems bulletproof, and I dont think there's a better system than Zip if you install it correctly.
I just came from watching This old house and they the Zip product on a Cape Cod house. Tom Silva addressed the issue about the nails going to far. And he demonstrated how they use the liquid flashing to the holes. Great video explaining the two products
Thank you for an objective critique of the two systems and especially on the tests that were done which were not at all a proper comparison.
In Canada, almost all that I see being used is Tyvek, and they just staple it on. I have yet to see any Zip Systems in Edmonton, and I hope to secure a job that will allow me to do it and start using such a fantastic system. I started my own company a year ago and have yet to land a large client, but your videos have so far taught me more than my apprenticeship training ever had. I am always spreading the word about these tips and tricks and products to my colleagues, and they are just as astounded as I am as to why we aren't using them. I recently renovated a house for a friend and added some exterior insulation to it and the difference in that thermal bridging is just amazing. I can go into the house when it is plus 32 degrees celsius or 98 for you, and the house is cold without an air conditioner. And I thought it was funny because in your video recently, I think, you say that northern parts of the US require exterior insulation on top of the interior. In Canada, we don't require exterior insulation at all. I feel like our zero degrees weather would be much more manageable with exterior insulation. I appreciate your hard work and sharing the lessons that you've learned along the way. I hope to meet you one day and talk more in-depth about really anything haha. Keep it up!
Well Down from you, but Up here in Wisconsin, we don't require exterior insulation at all here too.. I think the stuff I do see when required seems to be mostly blue and sometimes pink styrofoam house sheet... I guess that is good but it kinda bugs me to see this stuff, but I can't put my finger on why...
@@baloneyjusticecheezedog I know why. Because this stuff is very bad for environment.
@@romanslavo1 naa.. I don't care about the environment that much.. I would rather use fiberglass insulation in the walls of my house because it itches if you touch it.. but I could not care if gets recycled, thrown into the dump, or set on fire behind a gas station as long as I never have to deal with it again. Same goes for styrofoam, if it killing me.. I don't care.
@@romanslavo1 can you share your thoughts on what is a good insulation for the environment?
Same here, in Ontario. I don't see Zip available anywhere, outside of a special order. Tyvek house wrap is the standard. Overpriced tape only on the seams is code, nothing on the million staple penetrations or the damage made by the hammer staplers. That being said, I have read that the Zip tape only has a 25-year life expectancy and even the OSB with laminated zip insulation can become delaminated after the same time frame. They claim the Tyvek wrap and tape exceeds 50 years. Not my claims btw, just found in my research. The zip system seems to make sense to me and the insulation laminated to the OSB would help eliminate a step if requiring another layer of insulation outside of the frame. But haven't been able to make a cost comparison since it's not easily available here, in my neck of the woods.
Now that Texas experienced freezing temps, you may want to inspect their tapes again in the future to see if the temps made them brittle or deteriorate with (1-time) extreme temp differentiations.
Ha! I just finished watching your video and that Tyvek ad came up. I had never heard of ZIP until watching your videos. Everyone in California uses Tyvek. Now I'm in Utah, and I've seen both.
THANK YOU! It was SO good to see someone expose advertisers.
This is my first time seeing this video. And oddly enough, the first time seeing the attack add you mention as well. It just makes them seem desperate.
As a builder, carpenter, and framer for over 30 years, I see that most people are standing the wall sheating in the vertical direction instead of the horizontal position. 6:24. No one sheats a floor or a roof in this direction because the strength axis of ply and osb is perpendicular to the framing members. A wall is both stronger laterally, winds shear wise, and earth quake wise when the walls are sheathed with the plywood laid horizontally and staggered, not dissimilar to brick bonding. It should also be laid in a way that ties in floors and walls together. No 1 foot strip at floor/rim section. Plus, the plywood should definitely have a 1/8 inch gap between the horizontal rows for expansion. When you stand them up on a long wall, you run the chance of running out of stud, or if laid tight, having a couple of buckles at some point in the plywood. Either way, laying sheets horizontally on the wall is more correct and a far superior than the other way around.
I think they are in areas without any earthquakes so they are not as concerned about lateral movement. I agree with you 100% best practice is horizontal and staggered. Taping may be more difficult, but you'll have a much stronger frame.
OSB and zip sheathing can be made with the strength axis in either direction. For intended vertical wall panels, the strength axis is across the short 4' side.
Thanks Matt, this is the first ad I saw on KZhead for a couple years now. ;)
Thank you, Matt. That ad has been bothering me for a long time.
I love your content and completely agree the Tyvek lab test was obviously unfair. That said, I think you could stand to specifically call out your Huber sponsorship once or twice during this video. Not saying you aren't upfront about it, as it's always in the description. Just saying some extra emphasis would lend even more credibility to what is clearly a solid argument.
Valid point. Their logo is at the end of all my videos too
That doesn't matter at all Huber is a plywood manufacturer. They don't make zip or tyvek.
@@girlmastergeneral Huber makes Zip.
@@buildshow Hey Matt, would be more honest to clearly state you are endorsed by Huber in the beginning of your ad and not until the last 7 seconds. Couple of points, that test you mention was done at Construction Consulting Labs in Carrollton, TX. They’ve been in business since the 70s. Real testing facility, real test. Website: www.sunited.com. Also, the water column test, definitely a cap staple within the column installed with DuPont™ Tyvek®. You can see it at the 1:18 mark here: kzhead.info/sun/ZtSalctsbHeOZ2g/bejne.html. DuPont always engages in proper testing. As we can all agree, products are not better on their own, they are better working with a system of materials. Installation is key.
@@WeatherizationPartners Good catch.
I renovate and rehab houses in Philadelphia and often remove incredibly old facades to reveal what has to be at least 75 year old tar paper that is in perfect condition and still functioning as it should with no failures. I sometimes wonder why we don’t still use such a simple and effective material and application (I will still use it in situations where I am replicating the previous construction for historical purposes). I would love to see a comparison of traditional tar paper to the new materials to see how it stacks up against the modern applications. Thx for the great video, as usual.
You see that because those old houses are leaky and required a ton of energy to heat. The constant air movement through the wall keeps it dry.
Love seeing innovations that continue to innovate
Great video! Speaking for myself, DuPont shot itself in the foot with that bogus, slanted demo. Any doubts I had about ZIP are gone. I'll never use house wrap again.
You are hitting those Bob Ross levels, man.
Great video and explanation, Matt! It was a fun trip. Thanks!
I would like to thank you both for that video. I was very sceptical about Zip Systems because of the competitors video. Thanks for setting the record straight.
Thank you Matt. Clarity and truth rocks.
Matt I like your reviews on all these products but I would like to know about how they preform in all four seasons and would like to see a show on closed cell spray and ceramic insulation. Thanks and keep'em coming! Tom
Always rainscreen. That airgap allows everything to dry out.
Totally agree!
@@buildshow KZhead needs a solid step by step rainscreen installation video. I know you have a few that touch on the topic, but there's very little professional information on rainscreen installation regarding placement near/under moldings, trims, doors, windows etc
And proper drip-caps above doors/windows. 90% of the time I see leaks it's due to poor flashing. Anyone can buy a Tapco...not everyone knows how to bend and install well 😁
I agree also, with rainscreen. But it still dosnt stop moisture from getting in thru the penetrations in the paper. Wood shingles are the best siding hands down. Triple coverage. Zip system is trash either way. People putting up vinyl siding directly over zip shld loose their lic to build
@@jeepsuc99 why? From what I have seen there is little issue if the siding is properly installed. Now if your talking illegals as siding jockeys, slopping work on it yes you might have issues. Watched a house that lost 80% of the vinyl siding in tornado, had Zip R sheeting. And even in driving rain had no issues with water intrusion. Also house was built to be air tight so what little moisture did intrude it was handled by airflow and air management on the INSIDE. Guys house AFTER tornado gained 1.23% humidity but went back to normal in less than 24 hrs. Figure with Zip on roof, they had VERY minor water as roof came off, same as siding. But owner got on roof, used Zip Flash on every nail holes and nail much same way builder did. At least on part with out ice and rain shield. Each product, if installed properly works ok. I have actually seen more water issues with Tyvek from poor install practices than Zip /Zip R. And I have been researching many products for my soon to be built pole barn garage with second floor apartment. One of the serious issues I have seen in past was OSB has no ability to resist water, Zip/Zip R does.
I love hearing you and Jordan are still friends, when he split off I was wondering if it was a good split. You both seem like good people.
Tyvek dry rots. Took siding off a renovation and the Tyvek was falling apart. On another job, a house built in 1947 with wood siding, the siding was starting to dry rot. after the siding was off the tar paper was 100% secure and sound, keeping the moisture out of the wall. AMAZING. I recently put Hardie Board on my own house, so I put 4 coats of exterior enamel on both sides of the siding to seal it, then on install used 45ln tarpaper as a moisture barrier, then caulked the back edges and overlap of the Hardie board to seal it up. I't been on the house now for 12 years and no cracks anywhere. Chris Callaway, TECS Insulation, Richland Hills TX
I've seen the anti-Zip a few weeks ago. And I seen the Pro-Zip ad just before this video played.
Zip R-Sheathing (R6 or R9) with fluid applied for all the seams and nail heads would be the best option in my opinion. Wish I built my new house with that system.
The insulation is on the inside of the panel and it gives a little when nailed so a lot of care is needed. when used on a shear wall my engineer recommends against it. And lets face it every exterior wall is a shear wall nowadays with so many windows. I wish its a product I can use. But not according to my engineer! Maybe my windload is just too high?
@@blamuk You probably need to add let-in diagonal braces. My 1979 house has foam sheathing with diagonal braces and it hasn't fallen down yet!
@@clandry1234 let in braces are old school! real shear panels are much much stronger. I dont think the cost of adding let in bracing (even if my engineer lets me) just so that I can use zip-R is worth it compared to just do plywood+exterior XPS for a much stronger wall.
T-studs would be included in insulation system if I were building a new house.
@@lelenbates3367 unfortunately t studs are still not as readily available - I can't just pick them up in the lumber yard. It's all custom ordering. Difficult to even get accurate pricing info in CO. I guess you can plan to order more than you need to reduce the risks of delays etc. Still not very convenient.
A question at the end. I am not familiar with the Zip system but do know a bit about Tyvek. Around the 6:10 mark you mention that the Zip is both a water barrier and air barrier. You do not say that it is a vapor barrier but if people believe it to be a vapor barrier, at least for Tyvek, I know that it is not a vapor barrier nor is it intended to be. I know many people that do believe Tyvek is a vapor barrier, when it is intended to be a wind (air) barrier, as well as a (secondary) water barrier, for any water that would get by whatever cladding has been used. My understanding of vapor barriers has always been to install it on the "warm" side of the wall, which for most houses except for the deep south of the US, the vapor barrier goes on the inside of the wall. Having a vapor barrier on the outside and then installing a vapor barrier on the inside also would be a big no-no. So as stated at the outset, not knowing the Zip system, your comment about it being a barrier for air and water, this does not make it a vapor barrier....correct?
You make great points here Matt. There does seem to be a bit of a smear campaign happening and I appreciate the clarity you are bringing to the discussion. The one thing I really like about the zip system is UV and wind defense for projects sitting exposed for several months during construction. The zip system is a clear winner here, add in the labor savings of waterproofing with sheathing and the conversation becomes interesting. Both systems have a place and time will tell but the fact is simple, progress happens. Thanks for providing solid info. Keep up the good work.
I am so glad you addressed this ad. They disabled comments so you can't call B.S. on that video.
Not to mention all the holes you add with siding to both systems.... the siding and trim install is the most important of all steps, no question.
Ironically both these system just treat the siding like it's just there as UV protection and wind break
It’s almost as if one were really concerned about water and air (and all the fasteners from the siding), one would use regular osb, or plywood, then add a grace type ice and water shield product to the entire thing instead. $$$
@@scotttrafford5671 you are really close to that with zip if you use the fluid applied flashing system zip 2.0
and soon as you put a nail in tyvek you loose the warranty
@@scotttrafford5671 Check out David Poz channel. He built his house just like that.
Matt: ‘this video is sponsored by Zip sheathing…………let’s get going!!!!!!!!’ 🙄
Great job with your videos and your advice it's always welcome.
Kudos for leveling the playing field and being fair.
you have the best building information ive ever watched
Alex Cummins I agree.
Thanks Brother. Sure appreciate that
@@buildshow you should do a collab video with Matt from OffTheRanch youtube channel kzhead.info/sun/f7uPZN2iraWhmqM/bejne.html&t you are both in the Austin/San Antonio Texas Area! He's currently purchased a project that he could most definitely use your insight.
Love your videos but since your a southern builder the techniques don’t mean much to northeast builders. Can anyone recommend a KZhead channel that is as good for northeast builders?
TheReefaholic Fine Homebuilding
there is a fix to the fastener I staple my tyvek, and I tape were the staples are. and for the zip's I use the liquid flashing to cover the nail's
the whole time i was thinking if one could use some type of liquid to seal the penetrations or the zip tape and then you showed it 👍🏻
not the same add I've seen but I have seen a video by Tyvek on one of your videos earlier and asked about your opinion on it. glad I found this video.
That Homer "Doh!" in the Tyvek boardroom when they saw this vid
Another great one. Thank you. At 6:28, the zipped house shows vertical panels. Shouldn't they be rotated 90 degrees for greater shear strength like plywood?
vertical means less horizontal blocking required. It depends what you're priorities are.
Mr Risinger Thanks for that video I have seen the attack videos, though I took them for what they are they were beginning to leave some doubt in the back of my mind. Thank you for easing my mind. In your videos I have seen you recommend both and use both. I give a lot of weight to your recommendations. When you mention a product if it’s one I think I might use on my custom house when I have it build I check it out. Tyveck was / is the big boy on the block at least in New York where I grew up but in recent years I have seen Zip and USG popping up more often. Which lead to me questioning what was the difference functionally between Zip and Tyveck and you just answered that with the air sealing ability that Zip has. Also putting my fears to rest by pointing out the bias nature of the tests. Also on another note just wanted to let you know I recently sent an email to AeroBarrier and let them know that I came to know about their product though you and your KZhead channel.
Man we need fluid applied in newzealand!!!! Thanks for another great vid matt!!
I like using only INSULATED zips for only one reason: Insulated Zip sheathing removes thermal bridging between studs. The area of the typically framed wall 8' long by 8' high built 16.oc will have 15% of its area covered with studs that have Rvalue of 2.2. You can put any type of insulation between studs, foam or fiber glass , but 15% of the wall still will be cold because of the studs. Insulated Zip Sheathing removes thermal bridging, thus saving you 15% of energy. Plus it gives additional R9 from the outside. But Zip tape is very expensive. And it is cheaper to put Tyvek over Zip system than using Zip tape. Also, my opinion that it is almost impossible to do flashing above the window with the zip tape. Think about it: water gets on the sheathing and drains down between the tape and the sheathing above the window. If you use Tyvek over Zip system you will be able to flash windows properly. I think that Zip uninsulated sheathing is worse than regular OSB with Tyvek
You're not wrong, but most of my heat load is from the ceiling and fenestrations, not thermal conductance via studs. The extra R-value on the sheathing is something to be appreciated with something like LEED energy certified homes, in which Zip's expensive tape is going to come in handy on blower door tests anyway.
Good point.
Not having to go back and put 10' wide roll of tyvek on the house while standing on a ladder is reason enough for me.
Anytime I get playing around with a big sail the wind always gusts! There is actually a new ad that plays now. These false ads have caused me to loose my respect for both Dupont and traditional house wraps. Why would they have to stoop so low if they had a product that was even comparable? 1)Early in the commercial, they claim that the crew installed both systems according to the manufacturer's specs. Later they say that BOTH crews have experience in installing the before-mentioned products. What they failed to mention is how much experience each crew had. 2) They claim that Zip requires a 1/8" gap. All sheathing requires an 1/8" gap for expansion and contraction purposes. At the end they say "Don't fall for unproven claims." Ok, I won't use their wrap on my house!
If you put the tyvek on the walls while they are lying on the floor deck before lifting the wall then u dont need to go back with a 10' roll on a ladder. Work smarter not harder 🤔
@@dleblanc6646 came to say the same thing. Tyvex before you stand the wall then tyvex the gable before you flip it up. leave a 2 foot overhang , Tyvex tape the seam. Good to go.
@@dleblanc6646 not always possible depending on design of house and size of crews , but good point.
I can’t say enough good things about the videos you make. You are doing a serious service to us all. Thank you! If you have a moment to answer, is there any reason we can’t do a Zip System and then wrap it in Tyvek, or do a Zip System and cover it in a peel and stick?
Solid response. Strong evidence & winsome attitude.
The tar paper is still in excellent condition on my house built in 1917 in the old Grove Redwood window sills that are directly exposed to the outdoor environment still no leaks still no rot. Not to mention the beeswax and oil‘s that were used as a lubricant and preservative for the sliders around the window frame still with the original window frames. Not to mention all the creosol that was used to preserve and seal the baseboards around the concrete foundation not a single termite to this day or any mold or rot has ever took hold on that creosol saturated wood. Lol 😂 let’s see what Ziptight or Tyvek looks like after 100 years.
Fine! You win! Lets go cut down all the old grove Redwood and make window sills for the generations.
Old growth lumber.
@agua man I have a 1907 Been restoring for yrs.
Speaking of creosol, the footers in my 1882 farmhouse look suspiciously like they might have been railroad ties stolen from the rail line that runs nearby. Aside from some splitting, they're still rock solid.
Great video 👍🏼 In UK we have Siniat weather deface system similar to ZIP and much better quality Tyvek called Tyvek SUPRO (Tested to put on Roof as well as wall, class 5 rated for High Wind zone). I love to test these two one day as both of them are the best offering on the market from their companies.
so glad i have an older home, block and brick construction. will be here for hundreds of years as long as it's pointed every 30 years.
I've used the Zip Flashing when I resided my trailer, and when it has had an hour or so do bond to the surface, you can pull it off but only with some of the material that it is bonded to. The key is using a squeegee type piece of hard rubber or roller. I used it around all my doors and windows after seeing Kyle from RR Buildings use it on some of his builds, before going to the Weather Logic system. Just thought I would throw in my personal experience with using the Zip Flashing. I'll use it from now on when I'm trying to weather proof something!
The only problem with the zip system is when they add rigid insulation, which is sandwich between the framing and sheeting. I think it compramizes sheer strength by allowing a soft region to where the nail or fastener can bend or move.
It doesnt
@@natemartinez4595 Can you explain why you say it doesn't? It seems to me and Herboth... that the sheet of Zip R hanging out an inch will certainly not be as rigid as a sheet nailed directly to the framing. I'm getting ready to choose between ZipR and using spray foam instead.
Kudos for calling out an advertiser in a meaningful way
Aaron Norris ... with an ad paid for by his sponsor Huber, which makes the Zip products the Tyvek ad trashed. I have no opinion which as to which ad was less accurate, but at least Tyvek's was honest about the fact that it was a paid ad. Another poster has also pointed out that the testing in the Tyvek ad was done at an independent lab, while the testing in this ad was done by Huber and its paid supporter, Mr. Rissinger. Either product can be used to make a good wall. Neither ad should be taken as gospel.
Has anybody ever thought on how the original water proofing was done way back in the 1970s? They spray it with a marine grade polymer plastic and use a silicone-silicon caulking that can last like a stone! What happened to these time-tested and time-proven technology?
darthvader5300 I'm pretty sure roofing felt (aka tar paper) and Class D building paper predate that. Properly applied, they keep out liquid water while letting water vapor pass through to dry out any water that gets into the wall. I've never actually seen what you describe, but it sounds vapor-impermeable, which would block drying to the outside. That MIGHT have worked in an uninsulated wall with air blowing freely through it, but on a modern insulated wall, and especially one built with an interior air barrier, that doesn't leave much of a way for the sheathing to dry. A little water always gets into walls. You either give it a way to evaporate, or you rip down the wall later to remediate the mold.
@@monsterrodvonhugen "with an ad paid for by his sponsor Huber" Huber is only one sponsor among 6. "done by Huber and its paid supporter, Mr. Rissinger." Huber is a sponsor, so Matt is not a paid supporter. "at least Tyvek's was honest about the fact that it was a paid ad." The video above was not an ad, and Matt listed the sponsors. You've not shown him to be dishonest. "Tyvek ad was done at an independent lab, while the testing in this ad was done by Huber" The lab location has no bearing on how good the test is. As Matt showed, the testing done in the ad that he was addressing was a poorly designed test. If you can show that the test in this video was actually poorly designed, then you have a point. "Neither ad" Only one was an ad, the other is a part of an ongoing series. It seems to me that you are conflating having a formed opinion based on experience with being a paid shill.
Good content every time, I really like as a Canadian some of the super cool stuff available in the USA that we can’t get in Canada.
Great video. We have had this debate going ever since the Zip system came out.
Too funny.....tyvek attack ad at the end of your video.....however they do make several valid points, but of course any publication that is “ one sided” , also falls under the definition of propaganda. In my experience , the budget is what determines which system is used; with Tyvek being the more affordable option.
Matt keeps calling the Tyke video an ad, without mentioning that THIS VIDEO IS SPONSORED BY HUBER ZIP.
Patrick Hudson I believe that was added in response to criticism like this.
Will Pelton - how so buddy?
@@boobacockaa Tyvek got its reputation and hoopla based on lab tests. You cover a glass of water with a Tyvek sheet, band around the rim, invert glass, and Voila, no water drips out. Problem is, that is COMPLETELY IRRELEVANT in real world usage and performance. EVERY fastener PUNCHES a hole in what is basically a rigid material (yes, it rolls up, but that is because it is thin; try stretching to test flexibility), and that material cannot contract or squeeze back around the body of the fastener to seal around it. In actual use, you have applied a perforated scrim over the sheathing, with consequent massive air leakage in the finished assembly. And, any moisture that gets behind the siding has a clear wicking path, along the fastener, to travel back into the warmer environment on the sheathing (and it does). Tyvek is used by cheap and greedy (mostly production) builders to demonstrate their concern for "Green" and "Quality". They know most consumers are clueless, and this is a money-maker for them (and a boon for the re-builders down the line). At this point in my 49 year building career, I will ONLY use a fully adhered, SELF-SEALING membrane over 100% of surfaces. And I sleep well at night.
So what? Was what he said true? This is what matters.
@@leestevens446 you seem to know what you're talking about and I was wondering what you would recommend. I live in Michigan and we are in climate zone 5 if that matters. I was going to use 5/8 plywood sheathing, 2" foam board insulation (deciding on which one is a whole different question), then Typar house wrap (Typar actually recommends using it over the foam and not between the sheathing and foam), then vinyl siding. Zip sheathing (or similar) with insulation already attached is also an option. After watching this video and reading your comment I now have my doubts on either system. What would you recommend? Thanks for your time.
Great info Matt. Thanks for the honest opinions and information.
haven't seen one of those ads; until I clicked this video and that was the ad tagged to this video! pretty funny how they are able to market that
How long has the Zip system been in use for? Have there been any of the original houses built with that system been remodeled and the tapes found been inspect for condition over the long term? I like the benefits these new technologies offer over the old school systems, but I do worry that if they do start to leak in 20 or 30 years they end up trapping moisture behind them and it'd not be a pretty sight.
I completely resheathed my house with zip, step flashed every corner, and used staples for fastening. Outside siding is cedar cladding all the way. All joints were air sealed from the inside. I want to know where I get ruined here. Tell me where I screwed up.
If you've designed the wall assembly correctly with only 1 vapor barrier (ZIP) then any moisture that gets through will dry to the interior if you condition your house. I could foresee issues of water gets into the OSB and can't escape though
Zip can be a one-man job. Tyvek, not so easy.
A full roll of tyvek can be rough but it's manageable an if you don't need the full length say for gables or whatever u cut the while roll in half an always used a slap stapler if they using nail caps they just slowing themselves down can do a wall in about ten min..I only used cap nails if I put a foam type barrier over the tyvek/ wrap product
@Patrick Hudson how big was that shed..my tyvek rolls come 10ft standard...one man's shed another's Manson 😆
i guess i get to miss out on their ads i have ad blocker . Myself i dont go for ads till i see what kind of reviews is out there then i listen to more than one person on anything and make up my mind some places i wouldnt use even if they paid me and put it on or give it to me. Like your shows keep on going .
On it Boss. Thanks for the guidance.
So are cap fasteners still the go to for tyvek homeward?
Matt, could you go over the structural aspects of Zip-R. I have heard, and also contemplated myself that you loose strength against twisting and racking due to the soft foam that the fastener must travel through between one material to another. Seems like it would allow the fasteners to bend easier. Thanks
I think I should make a detailed video on Zip-R. Anyone else want to see that?
You have to use the correct length nails and follow an increased nailing schedule. As always, proper installation is key.
@@buildshow yes please
@@buildshow That be great and compare to current exterior insulating systems.
Please do so!
Wow!!! I see what you mean in this video. I love studies like this. Would you do more?
i saw these ads before his videos, searched “zip system cons,” and found another of his videos addressing & debunking those exact ads. i love how this little rabbit hole went full circle lmao
Matt, the question I’ve always had with any system is how do you handle all of the holes created by staples from stucco lathe or nails from siding? Seems like someone could spend all the time and money to install a good system then ruin it by driving thousands of nails and staples through it. How do you handle that if there is no budget for a rainscreen?
Marcus Preston use a wrb that is self sealing like blue skin
great point! nobody is talking about that....at the end of the day the zip is way over priced for particle board that has been simply painted. before covid they were 10$ a sheet at home depot now they are 30$
@@welewisiii Just finished my first project with Blueskin VP100 and loved it. A bit more expensive than Tyvek but wayyy better. Framer charged a little extra to install. Little bit of a learning curve for them but they did a really good job. Not that hard to install actually.
Marcus Preston i build coastal homes in nj and very few people use zip blueskin over cdx plywood is what’s on any house that’s not a spec house.
@@welewisiii Yeah here in southeast Texas Blueskin hasn’t really broken into the market much at all. I never see it on houses, because I don’t think many builders here know about it. I think only a handful of builders use it and that’s a shame. It’s a great product! A small portion of people here use Zip but most use OSB with Tyvek. Do you prefer the method of priming all of the plywood before applying Blueskin or do you just rely on the adhesive alone on the back of the Blueskin?
Both systems are ostensibly still going to have siding applied, almost always nailed through, so even if you diligently caulk every single “overdriven nail“ or staple, as soon as you nail on your siding you’re going to create new penetrations! It seems that there is absolutely no way to keep all water from ever penetrating walls, so I guess the best solution is to ensure that the walls can dry out. Right?
That’s for siding not stucco or various other features that can go over these systems
I really like your standards, many things we would not think of looking for in flaws.
I just got this ad the other day and was really hoping you'd reply!!
I built my house about 26 years ago and used Tyvek as a house wrap. A short time later I added a 3 season room but lacking Tyvek I used good old fashioned 15lb tar paper. I can tell you, without question, that tar paper works a million times better at preventing water intrusion. I have no experience with the zip system but if I could do it all over again I would never, ever use Tyvek. Tyvek has zero sealing properties. Drive a nail or screw into it and you have hole. I recently stripped my siding off and where I had Tyvek there was water staining and rot. Where I had tar paper the wood looked brand new. DuPont has done a great job marketing Tyvek but I would advise anyone building a new home to stay far, far away from it and go with old fashioned tar paper.
Thanks. I agree our old methods are so much better, The recent rash of tornadoes in the Midwest the old houses were still standing and all the new houses were wiped out. I'm surprised the weather channel was even aloud to state that. I've been in construction for about 40 years and everything has gone down hill massively. Of course it's not just construction.
Over drive a nail in the zip system and you also have a hole, and often one that you're not aware of. ZIP has done almost a good of a job of marketing as DuPont has done. If installed correctly, both are great. I just don't think ZIP is 50-80% better which is the cost difference.
@@billnoname8093 That's because it's all about speed and cutting costs. Time is money and the guys on the site are pushed to finish everything as quickly as possible guaranteeing short cuts are taken. I'm not against new ideas but too many of these products are designed to cut costs either by allowing the use of cheaper materials, speeding up installation or both. Problem is that that issues won't surface for about 15 years and then it's too late.
@@wtjarrard I haven't used the Zip system but it seems it's taken off like wild fire. I agree with you, put a hole in the coating and you are left with exposed OSB which doesn't do well with water. The manufacturer has very specific installation instructions that if followed to a tee probably results in a good product. The problem is that I've never been on a site where that happens either due to mistakes, oversites or because of cutting corners. I'm not a builder but my brother is and I've worked with him on quite a few houses. Those that we've opened up that have plank or plywood walls covered in felt paper always seem to look brand new. Those with house wrap, not so much.
@@richmac918 Most of the guys I know are NOT in a rush, I was referring to the materials and codes. But investors are like that, I mostly work for home owners
9.8.2019 You had an ad for Zip System before this video. 😂
Still here as of 10/26/2019
I used the Zip with liquid flash on a recent build. Other than my guys getting way too liberal on the seams (4-6" wide and very thick) I like it. I'll probably use Zip board and Prosoco R on my next one, because Prosoco is a little cheaper than Zip Liquid flash. Great video Matt. I'd love to see a head to head with Zip sheathing and its liquid flash vs Prosoco vs Blue Barrier.
Thanks Matt, always enjoy your videos
Matt from DemolitionRanch just posted a video titled: "So... I Bought an Abandoned Mansion..." You should pick up the job and make it into a collaboration/build series!!! The mansion is a wreck, but it would definitely give you some serious exposure on youtube, and you could use it to spread the benefits of Passive homes to a much wider audience.
Those attack videos are a good sign that Huber is onto something and it is hitting Tyvek where it counts by cutting into their margins. I was surprised by how shady DuPont (Tyvek) was in funding, producing, and distributing them. They hide their name and the fact that they funded them, publish under a bogus account, and disable comments/likes. They also present everything as non-biased when it clearly is. They make political attack ads look classy. Another sign that Huber is changing the game is LP and other manufacturers have released knock-off products that mimic Zip system. I put Zip on my personal home and have been extremely impressed with the product and system. The company has been awesome to work with and they stand behind their products with warranties and on-site training. Install was simple and I have nothing but good things to say about my experience and the product. On a side note, when deciding to do Zip I ran a cost analysis of Zip vs. traditional OSB with Tyvek Drainwrap. Zip was actually the less expensive option - and a far superior product.
Yup, if Tyvek was smart they would just sell Tyvek bonded to the OSB just like ZIP. If you cannot beat them, match them.
Yeah that zip stuff is garbage. House wrap is going to work much better. You may as well just put a OSB and burn the extra dollars you would have spent on the zip
@@THEDUDEABlDES Zip is actually cheaper than OSB + Tyvek
@@matt_metcalf okay you're trying to save on labor by not using Tyvek house rap. Trying to put your OSB zip house wrap garbage all in one step. It's just Builders trying to cut a corner. This guy is sponsored and paid by zip so you can't really go off what he says. If someone paid me to say the Ford Pinto is the greatest car ever made if it was a big enough check I will do it.
@@matt_metcalf because it was installed incorrectly. You don't even need house wrap if your house is painted properly.
Very good video and explanation of how to independently verify and test in an unbiased way. I definitely saw the add before this video lol
what have i stumbled onto here? this is fantastic stuff. thanks!
Advantech or plywood with fluid applied STPE WRB being the best option? It doesn't matter if the leaks are slow on either tyvek or zip. OSB is terrible as a building product because with either one it'll turn to mush over time.
Was wood.
OSB is a great sheathing. It's that the houses are not painted properly these days. Cheap Mexican labor is the problem
@@THEDUDEABlDES It is not the cheap labor that is the problem. It is some builders that try to cut corners and lack of training & knowledge of the product that is the problem.
@@ShadowxxPanda I agree it is the builders. Where they cut Corners is hiring illegals so they can save a buck. Believe me I am the Carpenter but gets cold when no one else can figure it out
@@THEDUDEABlDES osb should never come into contact with water and will fail quickly if exposed
I recently installed zip R 1/2" on a small project...seems it holds moisture between the osb and the foam. Moisture tests at 25%+ in spots. Also the foam on seams compresses more than in the field causing more issues siding and getting rippling down the walls.
Is that moisture coming from interior moisture migrating through the foam?
@@percyfaith11 as I remember it was humid and hadn't rained for days so more than likely was condensing on the oab after migrating through the foam.
Your videos are great I do have to say that i have been on site during one of these test, Huber was on site during the test and before the test started they said that some nails that where a slight bit over driven where ok for the test. They had a failure on 2 different nail penetrations at the first are we tested and then we moved the test area to a second location and had one failure on the second test. Now I also agree That you could take you time and under drive the nail and hand set the head and the system would work great. but even with bump sets and 4 guns working off one compressor you have to much variable air pressure to not get a over driven head once in a while. I personally believe there is less chance of mistakes being made with other systems.
I've seen over driven nails on zip and standard sheeting. It amazes me that a framer can't do the most basic task and set the nailer depth properly.
Some friends bought a new house and over 30% of the Hardiepanel nails are driven at 30-45*. Either the workers had broken hands or they put in a ton of effort to be THAT wrong!!! $600k house.