600mm vs 400mm for bird and wildlife photography?
2022 ж. 6 Қар.
19 939 Рет қаралды
I talk about the 3 reasons (the 3 "W"s) why I am not buying the new Nikon Z 600mm f/4 lens. Comparing with Sony A1, Canon R5, Nikon Z9 with their respective 600mm f/4 lenses.
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Sony guy here. People that are serial system switchers either have too much money and don't know what to do with it or they never took the time to actually learn how to use what they already own
@Hit and Run The differences between any of the leading edge systems is so esoteric as to be completely meaningless. People sometimes come up with these ridiculous use cases that are mostly imaginary and never really come to fruition
Same here... I learned how to use my 200-500 and I won't need nothing else
Yup, totally agree, they're chasing an idea and a distraction instead. Also, the idea of expecting new top tier bodies and lenses every few years is wacky to me, and a symptom of applying the idea of disposable electronics that need to be replaced regularly like cellphones to camera equipment. I've been doing this for 20 years and for most of them, the refresh cycle for pro bodies was around 4 years, and with lenses it's not unusual for a model to be around for a decade or even a couple before replacement. Nikon, Canon and Sony aren't investing this much in developing 600mm f/4 lenses to replace them at the same rate as the hottest cellphone. It would make no sense unless there were some kind of advance in optical performance comparable to the advances in microprocessors in that time frame, and something like that hasn't even happened in my lifetime.
All of you guys here are making outstanding points that the craft itself and learning how to use and maximize what gear you have is more important than constantly buying new gear, but unfortunately research has shown that the only videos that gain traction and get a ton of views and help the content creator are gear reviews. This is true for all of the content creators like cars, motorcycles bicycles, golf, bowling, RC cars, boats, audiophiles, you name it, it’s the talk of new gear that unfortunately explodes the views. People seem to be more concerned with the idea that the gear will fix a problem, instead of fixing the problems before buying the gear.
@@matthewcullen7106 I read some of the posts on FB where folks (almost entirely men) are ranting about replacing their current 600mm f4 with another mount which means a body as well. Take the A1 + 600mm f4 combo. With accessories, that's about $20k USD. Selling that and going to something else is gonna cost you probably 25-30% in resale value and for what? What transient tangible value is that going to return? You aren't gonna get better images. You won't produce better prints. Your Instagram isn't gonna take off and become viral and you will not produce one cent more of income from that switch. It's all just gear acquisition and a feeling that you don't own the leading edge (which is almost 100% marketing anyway). I am not picking on Tin Man here because he is first and foremost a photographer and a proven producer of quality images
The weight argument is not forward thinking at all. There will undoubtedly be a Z9 capable camera in a smaller A1 sized body by next year. Lenses have longevity. Camera bodies are replaced all the time by newer models.
Great video Tin Man. Do you still prefer the Nikon 400mm TC to your Sony A1 with 400mm? Thanks.
If you had just said that I am a Canon bro that’s why I am not buying the GREAT NIKON GLASS.
So in short if you are weak buy Sony. LOL
You don't have to justify your switching systems to us! Go with Sony of that's how you feel but making a comparison between the weight of a Z9 vs A1 is pointless. The A1 has no vertical grip so in order to make things equal, add the external grip and batteries then compare weight. I believe the Z9 is a much more robust camera too, being made from old sledgehammers, so that's a big plus for me. You say Nikon has taken 3 years to 'catch up' but in reality, they've overtaken as no-one else has a 600 with a built in 1.4x. They now have a shorter length, lightweight lens with added 1.4 and you've confirmed they are ahead by predicting Sony will bring out something similar, so surely it's Sony playing catch up? And when will Sony bring this new lens out? This year, next year or the year after? So again, you are in the same boat as Nikon users in that you're having to 'wait' for a new lens. 600 vs 400? Horses for courses as we say in the UK. If I lived in the USA where you can walk up to birds (shorebirds in particular!) I'd go 400mm, but in UK and Europe, birds are much more wary and so a 600mm with 1,4x and 2x is 'de rigueur'. Just go with what suits you best and stop trying to justify things. On a positive note, your images were first class in every way, so whatever system you choose, keep doing what you do best.
Great video Tin Man. Idk why you’re getting so much hate from Nikon fanboys (as a Nikon fanboy myself) I really appreciated your view as a real pro wildlife photographer
I’m way too heavily invested to be able to switch I have the Z9 Z7ii, Z6 and 5 Z lenses. I’m just going to have eat more and workout harder lol. I think the 400 2.8 is my choice over the 600 because of the 2.8 and I simply can’t afford both.
Just a another Jared in a soft voice 😅
YEP lol, nit picking and brand bashing
Jared would give his only nut for one of these wildlife photographs from Tim Man.
Wow! What a great analysis, Tin Man.
Of course I would like to get the 400 2.8. But as a hard-core bird photographer (as a hobby), I need more reach than 400 2.8. Most of the natural wildlife refuges in where I live don't allow for close distance photography. A 1.4x is always on my 600 mm f4. Honestly, 600 f4 +1.4x is still not long enough. A 600 f4 is around $13000 and a 1.4 is around $500. The Nikon price tag is $15,500. So the extra $2,000 is to buy you some convenience. I am sure the Nikon 600 with 1.4 TC is a great lens.
Not just buying you convenience, it buys you a native lens for the Z Series cameras, lighter weight, better focusing system and better optics
@@dvwildlife2625 safety (of dropping and dust) and convenience too. The built in 1.4 will get used way more that an "add-on" tc.
Yes Tin Man....with the 400mm 2.8 you get THREE lenses (400mm F2.8, 560 F4 and 800 F5.6), i know ....would be with TC's for 560 and 800 but the picture quality still superb and would be lighter and cheaper. With the 600 F4 you will NOT zoom in to 400 and you will NOT get a 2.8 aperture when needed. Nuff said.
Tin Man, what is your opinion about 400 2.8 + 1.4TC vs 600 [without TC] pls? I'm in that moment now to buy one of these lens, what are you saying makes sense to me... did you do the test, any noticeable bokeh difference at 560 vs 600? Many Tks!
Any thoughts on the newly announced Sony a7rV?
I don’t think you can go wrong with any system. I know the Z9 is on the heavier side but it also has a built in vertical grip. If you add the vertical grip on the Sony it’s gotta be close in weight to the Z9. I think Sony, Canon and Nikon are all great. I love the grip on the Nikons and Canons
Hello friend! Great video, thankss. I'm thinking about buying a Nikon Z8 and NIKKOR Z 70-200mm f/2.8 VR S. I want to follow your tips for quick lenses and this was the best option I found within my budget. Do you have any other recommendations? I have the option of buying a Sony camera too, instead of the Nikon. I'm going on a safari this year, I'm afraid that 70-200mm will be too little range.
stunning photography indeed. thanks so much.
Ya a 400F2.8 with a built in 1.4 is the ultrament wildlife lens 560mm vs 600 is like one are two steps closer. Soon as canon come out with one i will own it. As well as a zoom lens with the built in TC like the 200-400F4. I'm hoping for a replacement of that lens with a 100-500F4 1.4
Nikon hitting it out of the park with the amazing Z telephotos. 400mm F4.5, 400mm F2.8 TC, 600mm F4 TC, 800mm 6.3 PF. Only issue is their slow current production rate. Maybe the 400mm F4.5 is more in stock.
Nikon is hands down a more robust lens and body, therefore it weighs a bit more. Drop a Sony and Nikon on a concrete sidewalk and Nikon will keep on shooting. Sony will be in repair shop.
I did as just you suggest and actually both of my lenses ended up broken, can I now sue you for damages?
Hi, why do you have both Sony and Nikon gear? Must be easier to just have one system?
It appears that you prefer a 400/2.8 lens to 600/4 lens for wildlife especially for animals. If that is the case, you should compare 400/2.8 lens for different brands. To me Nikon 400/2.8 TC lens is a game changer because you have two lens 400/2.8 and 560/4 at the same time by switching on/off the TC. Therefore, no need to carry two big lens at the same time. It saves you a lot of weight. Your argument that the Sony A1 is 1.3 lb lighter is a very minor issue. I am a Nikon shooter and will not swith to other brands easily as the current Nikon mirrorless lens suit me perfectly well.
@@njrtech The big grip on Z9 makes it feel much lighter when shooting.
With todays high MP cameras 1.4x is kind of redundant. Just push the crop mode button or crop in post. To add to this, crop mode will generally give you better AF performance vs using a TC. That is the main reason i have the A1 - to be able to crop a lot (practically makes my 400mm a zoom lens - 400/2.8, 560/4, 800/5.6). I will never need 50MP files ( and don't give me the crap about needing high MP for big prints ;D )
Nikon 600 mm F4 is a Great lens for Bird and wildlife I love it , and the imágenes quality are simply stunning, the Nikon 400F2.8 is Great too, but sometimes short especiallity dor birds, where do you work? What do you shot?
I appreciate Nikon to help keeping prizing not to skyrocket. I'm just waiting for a RF 400 2.8 TC to rise above the horizon (next summer Olympics, I guess) I will not switch the system.
Beautiful work. You obviously excel in those brief moments of twilight. I hope, by, now you've finally received your Nikkor 400mm f2.8 TC.
Thanks a lot for your kind words, Bruce. Yes, I've finally received it and talked about it in a this video: kzhead.info/sun/hKtrnduxh5V8eoE/bejne.html I will talk more in details about this lens soon.
Keep in mind that Sony 600mm without tc is already longer than the Nikon Z 600mm f4 tc. Adding tc on Sony makes it even longer, which makes its even more front heavy, especially with a light body like a1. Front heavy is a lot more noticeable than slighty heavier weight.
Hi Tin Man, since you talked about the weight of the gear being a device factor in wildlife photography there’s a way to manage the heavy gear and I’ve tried it myself and now I love my Canon EF 800mm F5.6 even more. It’s the fast shooter harness designed by Whistlingwings photography, you might like to look him up.
Will do. Thanks for the info. It’s so much fun to explore options to optimize our photography.
@@TinManLee thanks for coming up with new videos, I’m loving it. I’ve just ditched my EF 800mm and got a EF 400 2.8 ii and feels so much better not just in weight but with it capability as you mentioned. Thanks for what you do, looking up for more videos.
Just echoing some of the earlier comments about the difference in reach between a 600 and a 400 for bird photography. I'd love to go with the Nikon 400 f2.8, but I am a primarily interested in shorebirds, lying on my stomach and slowly getting closer - and so not sure about the 400. It's about two inches shorter than the 600, it seems, not that much lighter. I'm conflicted, and both lenses are still difficult to get.
The 400 F/2.8 is a great lens especially with the TC - one could get the 800 PF to complete the gear setup. But the question to you is: how much closer can you get with a 400 ?? I mean some of these animals you photograph (great shots by the way!!) are dangerous or can be dangerous... is a 400 even with a TC attached SAFE ENOUGH for the photographer??
Close enough in Africa for big mammals. For flying birds it is a stretch.
This really piqued my interest Tin Man as that 400 and built in tc is too tempting to pass - Despite the crop sensor, I love my much lighter Fuji system and with the new Xh2 with eye autofocus and 40mp -I’m undecided - unfortunately Fuji don’t really have a low light monster for the 600mm range. If I do move system, it’ll probably be the Nikon just for that lens - despite the reservations you mention..I think once you have it and get used to it out in the wild, it’ll be a game changer and then you’ll have to do another you tube video refuting this one 😂.
On newer videos i sensed Tin Man now prefers the Z9. I am confused
I’m confused, doesn’t 7.29 vs. 6.7 amount to a .49 different in weight between the Sony and Nikon lenses, less than half a pound, not a pound and a half? Then, don’t you really want a grip on the Sony, not only for the battery but for gripping and balancing the big lens? Weight factors pretty much erode. I’m not going after the Z600 for other reasons but not for the weight factor.
Hello, what do you think of the Sony G 200-600 paired with the A7IV? I already have the 100-400 but I’d like to get some more reach. Maybe, in the future, I could also buy the TC 1.4. Thanks, Fabrizio
Heard the 100-400 is a lot sharper than 200-600 but just what I heard as I’ve not used them. Putting a 1.4 on a 100-400 May hinder the image quality quite a bit.
@@TinManLee thanks for replying
Buddy lemme tell ya, I live with this battle of weight everyday, and carrying 2 600's at the same time. You need the Whistling Wings Speed Shooter...trust me on this. Been using this harness for over a year now religiously and no more tripod, basically running handheld but with stability, can hand hold the 600 all day long. Very valid comments and I agree with your statement
As a guy who still lugs around the old S version 600mm f4 weighing in at 11.3 pounds....this 7 pounds sounds amazing.
A better review from Steve Perry, the my go-to for wild life photography. Also its confusing, you talk about the lens and go to about switching brands.
Sheeeesh, people on KZhead are great at nit picking and complaining 😏
People really do nitpick, 10 years ago people were lugging much heavier gear. Gear has gotten lighter and better and people still find a way to complain, by now all the flagships are so close together is just up to ur preference of system.
Sounds like you wish you stayed with Nikon. Canon is recycling their old lenses while Nikon is innovating new lenses for their ecosystem. If you post to instagram maybe stick with your Sony since you need all the help you can get. Don't forget that Nikkor 400 f/4.5 is the best f4 around in that class. Nikon killing it.
Thanks, Tin Man! I can't agree more about the weight of the lens -- very disappointing and a deal-breaker especially considering the weight of the Z9. I also agree about the production time; it's taken an entire year for Nikon to develop consistent stock for the Z9. If I didn't have a day job, I would investigate jumping ship to Sony! By the way, have you tried the Z 800mm?
Dont quiet agree with the weight, because the grip and balancing also make a big difference. The Z9 in my hand feel simlair or even lighter than Z6ii, due to much better grip and less front heavy. Also, adding external teleconverter make the lens a lot more front heavy, which is way more noticble than 0.1 pound of weight.(Nikon Z 600mm f4 tc is already shorter than sony 600mm f4 without tc) A lot of people changed their mind about the weight of Z9 after actually used it, it really doesn't feel as heavy as the spec number.
I shoot a Z 9 with the 600 FL with a 1.4x teleconverter HANDHELD now. And, I'm a 65-year-old skinny guy. So, all the complaints about weight more reveal deficiencies in technique and how to hold the lens well for shooting. Granted, carrying less weight is always a nice benefit, but as others have pointed out, shooting a long heavy lens with a light weight body simply shifts the weight away from the body, which is always a bad idea (unless you use a tripod).
Great video, thank you but I still bought a Z 600 f/4 - it’s amazing!
I was looking for the reason to skip the new 600 and the main reason he lists is that the z9 is too heavy?! I already knew the z9 is heavy! I’m already used to the z9’s weight!
What about the Nikon 800mm 6.3 ?
:) that’s exactly what I want. 800 6.3 pair with 400 2.8. But lately I’ve been focusing on places where I have closer access to animals and birds because that allowed me more opportunities to try creative work instead of just getting a far away shot.
Also having my route as nikon shooter then canon with those rf lenses now finally sonny - seems this is what I should consider years ago. Excellent camera & possibilities on it! Good job and nice inspiration!
Basically, what you are saying is the 600mm f/4 isn't the best lens for your particular use case. This is not a reason for others to use or not use it - this is specific to your use case - which is fine, but perhaps not relevant to many others. Your point about wait time is justified - but once you have it, you would not care anymore from that point forward. As far as the weight of the body, many wildlife shooters prefer a bigger heavier body especially for larger lenses - it gives better control over the camera and lens - better inertia, and a better grip and shooting base. I think a lot of this comes down to personal taste more than anything - there are no objective reasons to use one over the other that apply to everyone. There are plenty of bad points about the Sony, but again each person should weigh for themselves the pros and cons of any system to determine what is most important to them. This all said, I like your photos - you have taken some really beautiful shots - keep that up irrespective of camera system!
Of curse you cannot buy Nikon. You are heavy invested in Sony already. You are not looking as a millionaire, man. Sorry to say this.
Wow!. You mentioned the country Kenya...this so decent of you....I am so impressed. Its poor journalism when other commentators use the phrase "Africa" even when they are referring to just one country in AFRICA.... Africa is not a country, its a continent with over 50 national anthems and flags with different geographical features. Africa is actually larger than the US, India, china and Mexico combined. You don't even get to see the lions ,Elephants etc. in all the 54 African countries. Thank you for your thoughts on the 600mm lens. From Nairobi, Kenya.
Absolute crap - every reason given why is brand bashing. The guy loves Sony.
You cannot take the facts, right? :)
And you're a big crybaby.
How so? Weight is a fact, not bashing. Lead time is a fact, not bashing.
Given that he has both, and prefers one vs. the other means more than other reviews with people who shoot one brand. He is providing an objective opinion based on his experience. I happen to have the Z9 with the 600 f4 FL, and I am willing to take the extra weight. Many of my friends (non-professionals) have switched to Sony and are loving it, so why wouldn't Tin Man love Sony if as a professional he is using a tool that helps him achieve his goals?
I agree, people on KZhead are great at nit picking and complaining ... and they love bashing Nikon not matter what Nikon does... The Z9 is better than many of the current cameras, yet, people love picking on Nikon, brand bashing is super immature... not everything is auto focus and nit picking on every little thing..
Why not renting the lens when you need it?
I tried that in the first few years. The cost quickly adds up. Like $1000 for a week or two each time. And if I buy the lens, after a few years the value doesn’t drop much.
Your whole video should be labeled "why I won't switch my complete gear for the new Nikon 600mm." you basically give no helpful insight to the lense itself or any neutral argument on it other than the more than obvious. Just click bait...
Cheers for the video Tin Man - I agree with your analysis about the Nikon 600mm F4. On watching some of the videos showcasing the Nikon 600mm F4 - the photography was done in hides, with the birds/animals being fed/baited and props put up for perches. What do you think of this? Maybe you will disagree with me but my thoughts are that with this setup 1) you increase the risk of not getting a unique photo as someone could have been in the hide before you and got a similar photo 2) having food in the picture which does not fit in to the environment of the photo ruins the "authenticity" of your photo - as I want the photos to be as natural as possible, 3) Similarly you can usually tell when a perch that has been put up artificially 4) In a hide you are restricted to move so are often unable to get in the best position/angle for photograph, and 5) you get bored sitting waiting for the animals/birds to come. So I tend to use hides as a last resort.
I was thinking to switch to Nikon few years back, but I am glad I stayed with Canon. Love my 400 2.8 and how light weight it is like Sony's. Only bad thing about Canon is AA filter on wildlife bodies (even though don't realize much about sharpness with 400 2.8) and no 3rd party lens support at this point.
As someone loyal to Nikon, I wish I could disagree with you but I can't. It took 7 months to get my Z9. I'm currently waiting for three lenses. The 400. f2.8, and 800mm. My dealer would not even get my name on the list. I also want the 200-600 from Nikon to be on par with Sony, their 200-600 is 3 years old! Nikon does not even have a date that they won't meet for this lens. I wish I wasn't so vested in Nikon glass; I would jump ship. Nikon will continue to bleed customers; the worst thing is that Nikon does not seem to care.
Indeed great points.. I have the Z9 with 600 Fled and it is heavy although i use a mono..and i am frustrated waiting for m y 400 tc 2.8 Nikon and 800mm here in Austrlaia so i bought an R5 with 400 2.8 delivered in 3 weeks :) bummer for nikon as they have been my eco system for 30 yrs
The RF 400 is the EF version with a adapter welded on. Hard to be critical of Nikon when they are actually developing new lenses and not recycling old designs.
Good video, but the subtitles are distracting and unnecessary.
Good to know. I thought no one could hear my English lol
@@TinManLee your English is as good as your photography: excellent 🙂
@@pgo2372 that means a lot. I was not too confident so I added the caption to help express my points. Also I heard a lot of people don’t open their speaker when watching.
Between Sony and Nikon, I would take Sony and I am a Canon shooter. Is a shame really because Nikon is going all out in coming up with all sorts of interesting lenses like the Z 400mm f/2.8 TC, Z 800mm f/6.3 PF, etc. The deal breaker for Nikon still remains to be its AF and tracking. May be is less important when you are shooting bigger and slower subjects like bears, lions, wolves, etc, but say if you only shoot birds especially for BIF, AF and tracking is absolutely critical. While the Z9 might have better weatherproofing, unless you are so hardcore that you shoot birds in the rain, it is largely irrelevant. Or you could shoot with Canon which has better weatherproofing like the R3. If that is too low res for you, just wait for the R1.
Well, you obviously know nothing about the Z9 capabilities and you really shouldn't be commenting about it. The Z9 is a highly capable camera as its on par with its competition, in fact it does a fabulous job in AF & tracking as I get my share, if not much better shots than my colleagues at major pro sporting events. The other photogs are shooting with R3's & a1 as well as a9's. So, I see the best pro sports shooters at every venue I attend and I damn sure can hold my own without any pressure of getting my shots.
@@kenevans391 No, it is not. Is public knowledge. Every camera system has it pros and cons. But, AF and tracking is certainly not Nikon's strengths. It just isn't the best if you are ranking the big 3, is as simple as that. You could choose to talk about Nikon's interesting lenses, I would agree with that because I am objective. But, if you want to be defensive about Nikon's AF/tracking, go ahead. I am not even surprised, it is a typical Nikon fanboy reaction.
Really?! You sound just like a canon fanboy to me. Are you even a pro photographer who actually makes a living shooting?? I could care less about your comments about being shameful and all, the one who should feel shamed is YOU as you make these ridiculous comments when the Z9 is a vey highly capable camera compared to anything out there. I cover college and pro sports on a weekly bases and I have yet been disappointed in the overall performance of the z9 period!! Last I checked the baseball moves around 100mph and college and pro football moves very fast from all angles so your theory about Nikon tracking is appalling to me. Ive had the D6 and D5 and the Z9 does exceptional over those two. In fact dont be so sure the a1 and R3 are better cameras, in fact they are all so close it comes down to the actual professional photographer to get the best of their gear, perhaps you are a novice or an amateur who really needs assistance so then by all means go with the one that makes you feel most comfortable while you use them on P mode.
@@Rascallucci Finally, your theory on public knowledge is baseless gibberish nonsense. The real world of shooting all kinds of major sports are in fact the ones who cares the most as we make a living covering these events. If I couldn't get the shots then by all means would I have already made the switch long ago. So, go back to sipping your hot coco and bang on your public nonsense theories elsewhere.
Tinman …. You forgot to mention who is carrying the extra batteries you say you need for the A1? Because unless someone else is carrying them for you your weight argument goes out the window and you are left with the extra hassle of having to charge batteries all the time. I am sorry but I don’t agree with any of your arguments. For most people there are other more important factors to consider like colour science, ergonomics, reliability, after sales service, weather proofing, video production, rather than.3 lb weight difference. Now don’t get me wrong,I am not saying that Sony is any lesser of a camera than Nikon. You can’t go wrong with either of these. Then by claiming that you are shooting wide open and close to the subject @ f2.8 with the 400mm lens one can easily assume that although you have lower ISO values you will be missing having the Whole of the subject in focus since with these lenses your depth of field will be minuscule. And when only the eye and it’s neighbours are in focus and the rest of the body is not then your image will not be scoring very high in competitions!! I will agree that long wait is a problem but I think it’s the same for all brands these days with the global situation .
More like Sony propaganda. These kind of videos should be more informative with comparative knowledge if the presenter genuinely needs to educate the viewers on choosing between the available products in the market. It’s not right to be persuasive to others of one’s personal preference unless they are in a paid job. All preferences are comparative but the buyer’s preference should be their comparative judgment.
Nothing goes over the Sony A1. I used also the Nikon Z9, the autofocus is still buggy, even with the Formware 3.0. And even without bugs the Autofocus is not comparable to the A1. And you are right, 30fps is the king.
太业余了，首先名字旧没说对，是z600 tc ，其次我只看到第一点就知道视频不值得继续看下去了，索尼是没有tc的，这也能比？？？而且，光学质量不用比？？？？？标题党可耻
I think you need to hit the gym…
Nobody care