THE TRUE ORIGINS: The 3 Olympic Fencing Swords (foil, épée, sabre)
2023 ж. 28 Там.
41 186 Рет қаралды
Where did the 3 Olympic Fencing Swords Come From? (foil, épée, sabre). My essays on practice swords and sabres of the 1800s and early 1900s: www.antique-swords.co.uk/anti...
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I do greatly appreciate that you always emphasize in this sort of video that sport fencing is a valid form of fencing, even if it has diverged from historical fencing by some distance. I fenced Olympic Sabre competitively back in the late 90s and early 00s and was, dare I say it, fairly good at the sport - certainly good enough to win local competitions and earn national ranking points. However, when I first tried getting into historical fencing, the distain I experienced from some quarters for "only" knowing sport fencing was quite palpable and made doubly frustrating by the fact that I could easily tell that what I was learning was not so very different from what I had already learned as a sport fencer. I guess at the time it sprang from a desire to establish HEMA as "real" fencing compared to sport fencing, but it was certainly an off-putting attitude. It is good to see someone so prominent in the HEMA community clearly state that sport fencing is a valid exercise in it's own right and a useful basis for historical fencing if you want to move in that direction.
I think a lot has changed in HEMA in the last 20 years and we're less guilty of that now.
The problem with hema vs olympic is that in my experience, Olympic fencers have a looooot of bad habits that they can't get rid of. Those bad habits are advantages in Olympic fencing, but they are not good for practicing hema. The people in our school for exmaple who did Olympic fencing before still have a big problem to do proper forms, the most basic of which everything is build upon then...they mostly try to "go for a hit at every cost". It's not that they don't want to do it different, it's just so deep into their body that they always fall back into this when they come into a 1vs1 situation. Sure technical basics may be very similar, but the frame is different in which those technical similarities happen.
I am sorry you had to experience that. I came to HEMA only recently though Philippino martial arts, Japanese martial arts, Korean Martial arts, BJJ etc. from my point of view…. Sport fencing needs to evolve…. Include the Katana, include longsword, include the rapier…. If that happens, these arguments would simply go away and the best athletes and trainers would figure out how to win. From an outsider’s perspective it’s kinda dumb that sport fencing has three weapons that are so similar to each other and so different from historical swords. Ultimately that evolution of fencing would be a top 3 sport in the world in terms of popularity!
@@Blutroth Well, if they're Olympic fencers and those habits are good for Olympic fencing, then they aren't "bad" habits, are they?
@@varanid9 If they wanna do hema then they are bad. If I would do Olympic fencing and can't get rid of my hema habits, it would be negative too. Lucky are those who can change between seamlessly. But often times this isn't the case because olympic fencing Training is really intense and it wires your brain and body movements in a certain way to fence.
Other than the French grip and BEFORE the modern pistol grip there was the Italian grip. That's why the straight one was called "French grip" instead of simply "grip".
There were also Scuola Mista, Spanish, and German foils as well as considerable variations with the French and Italian types.
Well, all of the misconceptions were what I was taught when I did sport fencing lol. Thank you for clearing up these mistruths!
I was told the exact same things in modern fencing classes, and you see them repeated everywhere :-)
Many years ago, as a young sabre fencer during the 1990s,I was also told the exact same apocryphal stories, in almost exactly the same words and with never any justification or evidence. As in most martial arts, young fencers are taught to simply defer to the wisdom of their instructors and without having access to the kind of information we have today, it was difficult at that time to even pose the correct questions. Plus, sport fencing instructors tend to be a highly tempermental lot, so I would be surprised if young fencers even today are asking the questions when told these same stories.
I love that distinction between whether to train with a heavy or a light sabre. We see a similar distinction today between HEMA and LARP swordsmen. I've heard many LARPers make the same arguments: less injury, more training hours/bouts. They also cite training at a higher speed as a benefit when moving to heavier and slower weapons, as they've trained their reflexes to read and respond to more subtle and quicker movements, so they find it easy to mentally keep up with steel swordsmen after switching over.
Indeed a good point. Even if your main interest is elsewhere, I would recommend anyone to do at least one hour a week of olympic sabre fencing. Especially because of the extreme lightness of the weapon, every detail in your position and form becomes essential. I remember that my trainer noticed that my weak point are my ankles. So he put a bench in an angle on one of those gym racks and had me do lunges on top of it. Hurts like hell and with the slightest mistake you fall off. But it does teach you elegance with footwork and not to take the physical space for granted. And those things translate perfectly well to other styles of swordmanship.
Simply are you training primarily for dexterity or strength, you need both, but some consider one to be more important
Interesting. In my city, the LARPers train with these clunky steel viking era swords, which are much heavier to wield than most HEMA swords I've fenced with.
always train both ways. And sometimes with a higher weight weapon.
The only caveat to this that I have encountered when sparring with LARPers is that depending on which LARP they come from they might not know how to protect their hands. Belegarth for instance does not count hand hits if the person who was struck has both hands on their weapon. They claim is makes bouts more exciting but I don't see it.
Well one would guess they came from the factory.
ba dum cha
:)
Well played... 😂
So witty! 😂
As a human being: booooo As a dad/ uncle joke connoisseur: brilliant sir! Bloody brilliant!!!!
Frendship ended with superdry. Underarmor is Matt's best friend now.
Interesting. Thank you for debunking these myths. I learned them myself in my fencing club, especially the sabre one.
Great content! Glad you intend on continuing to be Matt Easton
Former 'modern' fencer here, mostly foil, but some sabre and rarely epee. The (presumably incorrect) history that I was taught regarding the sabre was that the rules and techniques evolved from *cavalry* (possibly officers?) fighting hand to hand against *infantry*. Which, of course, would explain things from the *offensive* end (i.e., able to strike only above the waist), but as you point out, it completely ignores the *defensive* fact that, as cavalry, your legs and your mount are most in danger from infantrymen. Anyway, thanks as always for taking the mystery out of the history! :)
This is quite interesting. I had actually been wondering about this very question. Thank you!
Excellent segment, Matt.
Strange - I watched your old misconceptions video on the fencing weapons earlier this week, and now you have a new one the same day that I’ve got my fencing practice! Funny how such coincidences happen
Very interesting and insightful video.
Thanks Matt highly educational!
I'm a modern Sabre fencer, and I wish I could have a pound for each time I've heard these misconceptions at both my fencing and Hema clubs. A very minor correction at 4:00. Passing steps are allowed in all swords in fencing other then for going forward in sabre(you can still cross your feet going backwards). What's not allowed is turning your head away (no protection on the back of the mask) or covering the target area with your off hand/arm in foil. So as long as you are looking forwards and you keep your arm out of the way you can do whatever footwork you want. Another couple of random points on the grips. There is another type of grip known as the Belgium grip which is like a half way between a "French" grip and a pistol grip. Also a number of Epee fencers have started to revert back to French grips, but they do so so they can hold it by the pommel, sacrificing some control for extra reach.
Yes I didn't finish my sentence when I said passing feet (my fault!) - I was going to say passing in to close, grip, grapple, disarm etc :-)
Thanks for a very interesting video!
Thanks for this content; good stuff! It’s interesting, I fence smallsword and wanted to see what it would be like to use a modern Epee(w/triangular blade, French grip) with a smaller bell foil guard compared to my actual smallsword trainer, so I made an order a few hours ago for said “stuff” only to be notified of this video and find out that I basically made an early epee de combat.
Don't forget that the length of the blade was important too. In the epee de combat from the 19th century they used longer blades (like today's Olympic fencing length) because first blood dueling. Smallswords had shorter blades, around 81-83cm if you were around 170cm tall. In Smallsword you stay closer and try to fence with blade contact..this is why fencing was seen as a great art in the 18th century, that style and shorter blade/closer distance allowed a culture of art to evolve in fencing. With an epee de combat this is not in favor, it would go against the style people fenced for first blood: as much range as possible and as as much no blade contact as possible.
@@Blutrothyes good point. It was just an observation I made from the video and what was described. When I pieced the sword together I wasn’t actually attempting to make a epee de combat(or a simulator of) per se but just to make a beater smallsword for smallsword practice since my other I actually am not a huge fan of. That being said the blade size is smaller so according to what you’ve mentioned it might not be a true epee de combat in the purest sense(or again simulator of). Thanks for the informed reply!
@@JessBrisson a lot of people use kids epee blades for smallsword trainers, a size 0 or 2
I only discovered this channel yesterday and I'm hooked.
Great video, thank you! I would love to hear more about the historical antecedents of specific Olympic fencing rules/conventions such as the numbered parries in each weapon, the use of particular terms (e.g., remise, touche, balestra), and the very concept of right-of-way. Where did these rules/conventions come from, and were there variants of them within earlier smallsword, epee de combat, and gymnasium or military sabre practice?
Thanks for the video
Interesting video Matt. You said that modern Olympic fencing has moved a long way away from HEMA techniques, modern Olympic fencing has moved a long way away from modern Olympic fencing (as in fencing as it was at the beginning of the modern olympics). My first fencing coach, in the early 1970s, was old enough that all of not is competitive fencing predated electronic scoring. He insisted that electric fencing as opposed to "steam" fencing as we called it was going .to ruin the sport. Don't know about ruin, but it has changed beyond recognition. Couple of points, the old fencing epees (non electric) that we had at the club had a bowl guard with a centre mount of the blade and not the modern asymmetric guard. Someone further down asked where the above the waist target in sabre came from. It's actually above the top of the hip bones and the foil target was originally the same, albeit with the head and arms being off target. I believe it changed around the late 50s early 60s to the modern foil target, but only for men, the target for women was still above the hips when I started in the early 70s. As to where it came from, Matt pointed out that the foil and sabre are training weapons for real world weapons where you and your opponent are trying to kill/maim/incapacitate each other and the best way to do that with a thrust is to stick the point between your opponent's ribs. Of course with a cutting weapon you can do serious damage to the arms or head. Despite the way in which some HEMA practitioners and some epeeists bang on about how artificial right of way is it is intended to drum into the trainee that when someone is trying to kill you, rather than going for first blood, you need to parry. By the time you have fenced for a while under the rules of right of way, parrying becomes instinctual. Is it worth pointing out that orthopaedic grips and pistol grips are different? Probably not😁
You are right about the right of way. Epeists often says their sport is more real because of the lack of it. But what each Epee match shows, is that both opponents would wound or kill each other (simultané) in a real combat. By contrast, Sabre and Foil teach you the importance of the parry.
@@CapitaineNautilus eh thats not really the case in epee, Ive found epeeists double as much as HEMA outside of some specific circumstances
The theory that the foil is just a practice version of a smallsword is probably a bit too simplistic. Two big reasons: 1) In the Royal Armouries, there is an object labelled 'practice rapier' and dated late 16th - early 17th century (so some time before smallswords). It has rapier style swept hilt mounted on a narrow rectangular blade with a blunt button at the end - very much like the blade of a modern foil. I've read about a similar weapon in the V&A. 2) In the final scene of Hamlet, the weapons Hamlet and Laertes duel with are referred as 'foils'. They are 'bated' (blunt-tipped) and the fight is clearly framed as some kind of game/sport. A score is being kept, and there is a referee to judge the validity of disputed hits. That someone actually managed to smuggle in a sharp sword into this encounter suggests that the points were covered with a leather/canvas button to soften the impact - what we see in some of the illustration in Michael Hundt's ''Kůnstliches Fechtbuch'' (1611). It would make sense that the version of the foil that we have now would look most like a smallsword. That was the last sword to be commonly carried by European civilians. But the name of the foil, its fundamental design, and certain aspects of the rules almost certainly go back at least a bit further.
This is all kind of irrelevant though, and he covered the main points. The foils used now are based on the weapon in use when the rules were being finalized in the late 19th century before being locked into popular culture by the modern Olympics. Of course that sport was based on older tradition, but that tangent adds nothing to his goal of reflecting on the equipment of the current game aside from trivia that does not seem well attested, especially the English word for 'foile' you reference.
@@ChuckCannon Re. equipment: the modern foil is closest in design to early 20th century Italian foil (longish blade, cupped round guard, attachments you can hook your fingers round), which, in turn, doesn't look like it had changed much since the transitional period (roughly speaking, mid 17th century). 19th century French foil, which was a lot more similar in size to an actual smallsword went out of use in early 20th century -- probably thanks to the Olympics and the need for a common standard. The only feature of the French foil that's still around now is the straight grip, and even that's a rarity outside beginner's classes. The French word 'fleuret' (in reference to a practice thrusting sword) also goes back at least to 1621 -- a good 70 years before the first known codification of foil rules. This is well attested. Google is your friend. For the record, I liked the video.
@@meowthedog Re. your fun facts are not directly relevant to the discussion, which is probably why they weren't used to pad the length of the video you liked, and the way you provide them assumes some superiority, like you continue to do. Some critical reasoning can be applied in favor of sharing every factoid you know at every opportunity. Are you now putting forward that the word fleuret morphed again after flower into a homophone of foil in in less than a generation? I don't believe there is consensus, but I see it equally attested as an English synonym still used for balking an adversary. If you assume all practice swords of the time originate from some random practice rapier, or all the names for them across multiple countries, you should be content he kept it simple for you, not complaining about it.
@@ChuckCannon, well, that told me... Argument by vigorous assertion. Not worth my time. Bye.
@@meowthedog google harder
You _will_ have to explain right-of-way in another video, because no written article I can find is doing a very good job.
Right-of-way basically means a fencer must perry the opponents attack before counter-attacking (reposte) to get a point in a bout. That comes from real sword fighting experience. If two people are facing each other with sharp swords and attack at the the same, they could run each other through and both be wounded or killed. Not a happy outcome! So the right-of-way rule was intended to train the fencer to always perry the opponent's attack before counter-attacking.
Basically, for foil and sabre, if both hit at the same time, only one person will get the point, the one with ROW. With sabre, its more or less whoever is the more "active" participant. If two people attack, the one who began first gets the point, even if the other one hit them first. You lose ROW by hesitating, missing, or getting parried/getting your blade beat by the opponent.
The foil is in it's original form (smallsword) the "true" form of 18th century fencing. If you fence smallsword, it often times depends what maestros manual you practice from but the most beautiful and influental is the one by Domenico Angelo. Smallsword fencing and it's training tool (foil) were the same in the 17th and 18th century, as Matt explained. But foil fencing changed very much in the 19th century. For example, in french smallsword fencing you should have 70% of your weight on your backleg, your stance is backwards leaned, which results in a lot of different movements and actions in opposition to modern olympic foil fencing (for example a frequently used cross-step with outward pointed toes on the left foot). They did that, because the swords were deadly, and a backward stance helped to avoid the point better. There were hardly any attacks where you rush at the opponent and the target area chest was proper, not because they had no masks, but because it was the easiest target to hit with a high chance of killing the opponent. If he were to perfom a counteraction while he has been deadly hit already, the backward leaned stance helped to avoid his thrust better. Because they changed the fencing style to a more forward leaned agressive style in olympic fencing (because it was not trained for sharps anymore) all that became redundant and thats why proper smallsword fencing looks so different and is a bit slower and less agressive as the modern sport of foil. Also there were no flicks. People who say modern Epee fencing is more "real" usually have no clue...that form of fencing (first blood) was a result of a different and new way of duel fencing that evolved after duels to the death faded out of fashion. Great video, as always, Matt!
Some of that is true as far as it goes, but there were actually forward-weighted foil systems (I think the German stuff) and obviously centre-weighted Italian stuff.
Also first blood duels were the most common even in most of the 18th century. Especially since it was illegal in most countries. A wounded opponet could explain things away, if you killed someone, especially si ce that someone was likely a noble. Killing them would be very not good for you.
@@LK041 If you look at the German styles (they were direct evolutions of Fabris' rapier Style because for some reason Fabris' fencing was extremely popular during the period of rapier fencing in middle Europe and Scandinavia), you can see that, altho they lean their shoulders more forward, they at the same time try to keep their stomach area backward. It's nothing like a whole torso forward leaned stance like in modern fencing. Checkout some illustrations of manuals by Schmidt (1713) or by Roux (1798). I don't know much about Italian Smallsword fencing, the only thing I've seen is an illustration in the book by Liancour, who mentions a "Italian guard" and shows it, like you said totally center balanced but also very low in the knees.
@@Blutroth the torso is rarely leaning forward in modern fencing? Theres the occasional paolo pizzo thing but in general its pretty neutral. Even most foilists at most have their shoulder forward as an invitation in such a way that doesnt actually hurt their movement. Id also argue that the backweighted guards were kinda shit and theres a reason something more like modern fencing emerges pretty quickly after the end of rapier fencing. Bringing your weight back ironically makes it harder to move back explosively from an L shape en garde position (since you push off from the front foot which is no longer properly engaged), meaning that in real terms you are easier to hit, since your ability to move out optimally is reduced. And then theres the fact that the attempt to remove your vitals from your opponent can just be... countered by your opponent moving closer. Its the kind of idea that makes sense on paper but is actually very very stupid if you put an ounce of though into it. The backweighted en garde died out *while smallswords were still being used* everywhere outside Britain bc it was not actually any good, and thats why it didnt continue through to military sabre form for example. If any of this were true I shouldnt beat the shit out of every smallsworder Im coming across, but instead of them being the ones hitting without getting hit, t is me, and its comfortable.
Great video. I actually did not know about the evolution of the sport sabre. Might very well be because I never trained with it.
Very illuminating indeed!
I maintain that sport weapons are superior training tools for anyone just coming into HEMA. People without fencing experience often struggle with heavy rapiers or side swords. Stance, measure, tempo, leverage etc.are doubly difficult to concentrate on when your shoulder is burning from heaving around a 1200 gm rapier.
Really interesting! 🔥
Excellent Information and accurate
Glad i subscribed. I have done a lot of boxing, Oriental hand to hand and weapons, even some tai chi. But have always been interested in the history of European fencing. Thank you.
We had a boxer come to our fencing club, hoping to develop better footwork. It didn't really work out as the stance is reversed!
Good video. I was my university's Sabre champion in 1990.
Excellent vid, very informative for this septgenarian ex fencer, always wondered why the sabre had such a light blade that was supposedly for cutting.
I did a little foil fencing back in college, and I've always been curious about where the three fencing swords came from. I really enjoyed this look at the history of their development .
Love the historical sport fencing content Matt. You are so right that there are a ton of different stories out there about how the weapons and rules evolved. Sometimes I think every club and coach has a different idea about it. I think in many cases these probably just originated as casual theories that fencers came up with while at the pub that their students interpreted and passed on as facts...but that's just a theory. :P
Love swordfighting. Met a friend that had fenced with foil competitively. I'm interested in rapier and dagger. I use sticks mostly. My friend said the rapier swordfighters were sadists lol. That is to say, you are definitely going to feel it. I say that laughingly but I totally get it. Ouch!
Try getting a sabre wrapped sideways on the back of your neck between the collar of your mask and the jacket; that is sadism 🤣
Hi Matt, for a practice dabre I'm a fan of the 1910 Wilkinson sabre. I like mof sabres but with the n.2 blade which is closer to the length of an infantry blade, and a metal pommel.
Soda straws at thirty centimeters its. have at thee. ^~^ Bravo and thank you for taking the time to explain the differences.
Knew these things, which is a relief, since I’ve given this spiel or similar many times. I DID make the mistake of calling sabre a cavalry weapon, but I got the epée right at least.
Great, informative vid once again, thank you. 40 years ago I was fencing sabre at a fairly decent level and practicing 5 days / week. I usually used a heavier blade during practice which paid dividends in competition because of the speed of the comp-weight blade and the endurance over a two day competition. There is no way this was original to us and wonder if there are any treatises you have read which advise this?
As a former fencer I definitely believed the misconceptions about epee and saber you mentioned here, so thank you. But then where the waist-up rule in saber comes from, if not from cavalry?
My personal guess is safety, Hutton in Cold Steel says that fencers not wearing leg pads should abstain from cutting the legs. I've personally gotten pretty nasty hits with 20mm HEMA sabers to my hipbone and close to my nuts.
Many schools in Europe did not allow below the waist targets due to safety, and they considered it unfair when people targeted below the waist because they had not trained for that! In the first few Olympics they changed the rules a few times, and in one of them (1906 maybe, from memory), lower body targets were allowed.
And it is un-gentelmanlike to hit, not poke mind you below the belt, just like in other sports like boxing
Well done, Matt. Q; have you ever come across something called a 'dish' hilt epee de combat? I read somewhere that they were used in the late years of dueling and that the weapon was assembled on site. I assume because the duel was illegal by then. Forgive me if i am remembering this wrongly.
What is the average weight of the "Small Sword"? I'm suddenly very interested in it
Smallswords vary a lot, but are often around 500g.
As a modern fencer (started with foil, mostly sabre now - with bits of epee as the mood takes me), the only thing you got wrong was a tiny detail on sabre target area - which does not include the hand (but does include the arm all the way down to the wrist). The topic of sabre having its roots in cavalry combat is certainly a myth I've heard before (and the evidence for it being derived from the infantry use of sabre is much more prevalent) - but sabre techniques do include parries covering what would be the lower body or horse (prime & seconde). These parries are significantly less common, however, as their primary purpose is protecting against a 'low-line' attack where the blade is moving upwards rather than horizontally - which the 'standard' parries for the left and right side (quarte & tierce) can fail to stop effectively. There is also the unbelievably rare neuvieme which (for sabre) positions the blade vertically down the length of the back, nominally to protect from lateral ripostes if you find yourself passing an opponent on the attack. Because the point is halted when fencers pass (for safety, the backs of the heads are not protected), this is uncommon for all three weapons - but especially so in sabre where the distance is generally more open (a product of the increased speed and reduced impact force required for a touch to be valid).
Before the guard developed into its larger form, was there any significant physical difference between the smallsword and the epee du combat? I've tried looking it up but search engines can't seem to tell that I'm looking for info on physical differences of the sword rather than the rule set difference of epees being used to fight to first blood.
The only real difference was the blade cross-section. The foil is square, whereas the epee is triangular (and therefore stiffer). The epees (even early ones) seem to have usually been a bit heavier than foils, but most modern epee are only around 500g, which is about the same as a real smallsword (but the epee is longer).
@@scholagladiatoria Oh sorry, I meant to ask about the difference between the smallsword and epee used for actual duels, not the practice weapons. Was the dueling epee also longer and heavier than the smallsword?
Very interesting ! What about Raddelli or others italian sabers of the same type ?
I've seen early 20th Century blunt sabres with built up fortes, almost like a large washer has been built into the blade. Are those likely to have been an early effort to compromise between safety and maintaining weight or something to make it deliberately heavier for drill practise?
Would love to see a reaction to the dueling scene with foil and sabre in 1965’s “The Great Race” with Tony Curtis.
I'm just impressed with your diction on "real weapons of war"
great video, thanks. i started with Longsword, now working on rapier and wielding smallsword quite enthusiastically. Feels like I am envolving with the weapon history :D and same feels the whole community. Rapier Fever broken out here in Germany, Smallsword is already knocking on our halls! Regarding Sabres: the argument that italian "light" sabre masters use 6h working is better than 3h working with military sabre is quite interesting. Its important what you emphasize right? Technique then yes 6h. Build up strength and adapt with your tool the military sabre. Nowadays Military emphasize training with their battle gear. I think around 1880-1905 there was not a big use and therefore emphasize on Sabres in Infantry. So why risking to injure your soldiers with heavy weapons.
Thanks for the history clarification, and it's especially nice that you have appropriate original or replica swords to show the evolution of form. I'm peripherally involved with folks doing historical reenactment in the US, and something that we have to train out of folks who come to it from sport fencing is that they get conditioned by the weight of the sport weapons, and also by the rules from the FIE. On the one hand, they don't know how to pass their feet. On the other, they think they can coupe with a rapier, side sword, or officer's saber. While we try hard to make sure they don't sprain or break their wrists on day one, the exact same reasons that has reduced the weight of the sport weapons also causes people to practice with foils, epees, and (sport) sabres, which doesn't help with understanding the mass, momentum, and the very different flexibility of the historical weapons.
eh u can absolutely coupe with a historical sabre. With lighter Radaellian ones its not hard at all, with heavier British style ones its like cutting a moulinet that doesnt swivel but instead just throws the tip back and then forward again.
Great Video! I wonder if you can do one about German student fencing 'Mensur' with the so called 'Schläger' as a weapon.
Is there a historical basis in the target area for sport saber? I'd love to know what led to that decision. Just practicality so you don't have to wear a full body lamé? haha
can you make a video about German student corps(Burschenschaft) sabre fencing. Does it make any sence? or is it purely ritualistic ?
@scholagladiatoria How does Singlestick work into this conversation?
Hi, what about the single stick, and the Italian grip? Cheers
Ok. So I wasn't as wrong as I thought. You corrected me on my mistaken idea from your last video that the fencing sabre was derived from the 1908 cavalry sabre. But what I was right about discovering from your previous video is that the sabre was derived from changes in military sabres in which they became narrower and more point-centric than they had typically been before? So that this sports form was a big exaggeration of that same trend? - copying its basic form in the large protective guards too?
My ultimate goal is to be as fast with a back sword as a fencer is with an epee, I don't know if that's possible but it keeps me training every day... Ok most days 😅
In your discussion of the fencing saber, you neglect to mention the differences in the evolution of the stiffness of the saber blades. (It might have been beyond the scope of the video.) I was a B class saber fencer in college in the US in the early 70's. I held my own, but was not exactly Olympic quality. After the advent of electrical jackets, I tried to get involved with one of the local college fencing clubs in the early '90's. Since my gear was non-electric, I fenced against several opponents who used their electrical (but not hooked up) sabers against my "antique" saber. Their blades were so "whippy" that they just curved around my guard as if the where whipping me with automobile antennae! Where my room mates in college would comment on the red welts that I wore all over my torso after every fencing practice, I doubt that any current saber fencers sport anything more than some prickles on their fighting wrists.
I fenced at school and didn't know any of this, so ta very muchly... ☝️😎
Cool
Years ago I had a "fencing" sword by Wilkinson. It was closest to the Epee you have there with a triangular blade, the tip was cut square but had no form of button etc. The guard was an aluminium bowl. Sadly, it was broken and my father, no doubt thinking he was being clever, ground the tip up to a point. However, I was told back then that it was a "stage sword" and that "Stage sword" was a sporting discipline of its own amongst fencing. Any thoughts?
« Stage fencing » is teached here in France. I would not say it is a sporting discipline, but it is definitely a thing with schools and students. As one could imagine, it is based on actual weapons, rapiers, small sword… with an emphasize on dance and « flowering movements », to be used on stage and in movies.
It's a good thing that cavalry sabers are not the inspiration for fencing sabers as the weight and balance would be completely off. With cavalry sabers meant for actual use on horseback we're talking >900 grams, and it's not unheardof to find examples 1200 grams or so. These were beefy, tip heavy swords meant to deliver devastating cuts from horseback. Not light dueling weapons meant to poke your opponent with.
I think you should do a video on dueling swords vs. military swords used in battles. These are two different kinds of swords, and I notice people tend to think that techniques in one is applicable for the other. In duels, it's 1 vs 1, with minimal or no armor, and the goal is to settle a dispute or honor without actually killing. In military combat, it's the complete opposite where you're fighting many vs. many, there's usually significant armor, and the goal is to definitely disable or kill your opponent.
I used to fence sabre competetively and I was taught(by a man that was #9 on the US olympic list at the time) that the reason that the sabre target are was waist-up WAS because of not wanting to hit the horse. You touch on this a bit, but can you clarify why the sport only targets waist up? If it's not related to the historical context of being a calvary person, what is the rationale? Of course I understand that it could be as simple and mundane as, "we want to sell competetion gear that is different from that of epee and foil", but is there a deeper reason? Thanks in advance!
If that thick one was a practice sword id hate to see what the real one was like
What would be your advice for a beginner? Which one of the three?
In Danish, the same word is used for the olympic fencing epee and the real sword, rapier.... that is a bit confusing. Thank you for making this video, Matt, I got some technical terms put in place, at least in English. 👍👍👍
Great one, a sport is a sport - Olympic rifle shooting is not using full military rifles, after all ;) given the chance i likely would have gone HEMA back in the day but I did end up doing Olympic for 10+years and now i do "gotten old"
Yea, but the rifles and bows for that matter being super modern and sport specialized kinda makes the activity much more lame than it need be.
Probably a stupid question, but was there a specific reason that the target range in Olympic sabre was limited to the upper body only? I know they felt the need to differentiate it from foil and epee, but wouldn't the fact that cuts were a thing in sabre have been sufficient for that?
In the 1800s there were various sabre schools that disallowed hits below the waist for safety reasons. Hits below the waist were normal in some countries (like the UK), and leg/groin protection was worn, but when the Olympics returned, after messing around with the rules a few times, they settled on not allowing leg hits. We don't know exactly why - probably partly for safety, partly to make protective clothing simpler, and partly because a lot of European fencers were not training for leg hits.
@@scholagladiatoriatypical europe trying to handicap the superior Englishmen /j
@@scholagladiatoria Interesting! Thanks for the response, Matt (long-time viewer, love the vids!)
As a former modern Olympic fencer, I was also told these myths about the origins of the saber. I believe you, but what then *is* the explanation for the “above the waist” target area, if not because of the horse? I was taught that there were lower guards in historic saber manuals, but that they were for defense from attacks from infantry below and that modern fencing is presumed to be combat from participants on equal footing… I.e. two mounted combatants. To your point, however, polish saber wouldn’t make any sense if your own horses head were in front of you.
You forgot that saber was a civilian dueling weapon either. Particularly in 19th century Italy, where it outweighted BY FAR (about 10 to 1) any other dueling item (sword or pistol) combined. In Italy in the 10 years 1879-1889, 2759 "official" duels had been registered. in the ten years 1889-1899, 1155 duels. In 1898 died the member of Parliament Felice Cavallotti, fighting his 33th duel. Sabre duels were usually to the first blood, and a lightweight sabre was preferred (also over the duelling sword) because the first blood would have most likely been a rather harmless cut instead of a probably lethal thrust. A manual of the time explaining the preference for the sabre in matters of honor, stated "honor has to be defended with blood, but not necessarily with life". If I want to find a real weapon that's similar to the fencing sabre, is the Italian 19th century duelling sabre or "sciabola da terreno".
So can I ask..so...which format of Olympic fencing most closely resembles or replicates use of an actual weapon?
Epee. The techniques are almost 90% crossover from the historical version. Infact most of the sport athletes would probably smash the old 19th century duellists even with their more limited skillset. The core stuff is taught much better now.
This does help dispel some of the misgivings I had with sport sabre when I fenced regularly in my teens. The cavalry sword origin I feel is used to rationalise the charging at one another (gaining priority by taking the first action) that is a regular feature of a sport sabre bout. Feel free to disagree, but I think that sport sabre would be much improved if that particular rule was discarded.
I have a +2 dwarven-made epee. 😅
they have any hema style sport with horses?
Yes, mounted HEMA, competitive jousting and 'skill at arms' are things.
I love fencing saber, but there it is both aggravating and hilarious in the amount of whip the saber blades have. It's ridiculous in both the best and worst ways
The thingy jingling against the épée cup is infuriating. I had to pause the video several times. I was one of those who believed the épée came from the rapier. I'm glad to have been set straight.
This should be shown to all FIE fencers! Some serious long standing myths are being busted here! One thing I'd like to be explained though is why the saber hit area is only waist up?
Can tou elaborate on kenjutsu evolution through time?
Also worth mentioning that the Patton Saber is based on olympic fencing swords and not the other way around. Patton was an Olympic fencer, and that's why the committee who designed that sword asked his advice, and probably why the Patton Saber is 2/3 to 1/2 the weight of its European counterparts.
the patton sabre is over a kilo lol, thats well in line with european service swords, in fact its heavier than a lot of italian and french ones
Patton competed in the sport of Modern Pentathlon (riding, running, swimming, pistol shooting, and epee(dueling sword) fencing - not saber fencing. Whatever interest he might have had with saber was in all likelihood due to his interest in military history and horseback riding.
Patton was in the cavalry (later the cavalry became tanks) he decided that the sabre could be more effective as a point weapon. It was designed to be straight to thrust or cut. It was not very popular, someone found a bunch of them in an armory and sold them as surplus. If I could go back in time, they went fast because they were unusual and inexpensive - $90.00
I heard old Italian texts addressed three degrees of pressure on three zones. Then the Spanish school taught nine pressures in nine distinct zones. Also heard that the Spanish developed a style of moving off the line of attack, leading to a ban against moving off the line because of Spanish superiority at that time. I have no references to offer but I suspect HEMA might know. Just a suggestion. Are there HEMA groups in the US? -Dan
lmao completely incorrect, the Spanish destreza style never caught on outside of Spain bc it was incredibly difficult to do well, and even when done well was no better than Italo-French linear fencing. There is no ban in moving offline in modern fencing, you have a mtre and a half to do it, which is enough space to do it when it actually matters. The reason for pistes and linear fields of play is that you can fit more of them in a hall
@@bigmoz9900 Thank you. I had heard the other version. I figured I might learn something from someone here & I did.
I am german, and Brittas boyfriend. In german accademic fencing, the students once fought with the , Pariser' . In current german language a Pariser is a preservative, but then (1820s) a Pariser was a Sport epee with a Sharp Point and only a disc as guard. In late 1820s a number of deadly accidents happened, so German rulers wanted to forbid Students fencing ( they don' t liked students for their democratic tendencies). But the ruler of a small german state in current Thuringia had an idea. He asked his fencing trainer/Fechtmeister to invent a Style of fencing, which is lesser dangerous. The result: A cutbased fencing, where the weapon ( called Schläger) had a narrow blade with no Tip, and only firtst third of Blade was sharpened. This fencing stlyle became popular among German ( Austrian/ Swiss German) students, and in 1850s Last thrust based Mensur bouts happened. In 1952 Leader of German Fencing Students Fraternities promised German Federal President: We no more allow real duels! This, and Changes in ruleset and protection Gear, is the reason, that accademic Mensur is still allowed. No Olympic background, but should be noted in this context. Also in 1970s french ,La Canne' / the cane was regulated and changed from Martial Art to competition Sport. Good for surviving of the Art, but seems Bad for real Combat. Also Portugiese Martial Art of long Stick seems to have the Problem: Loosing fighting quality when transforming to Sport, or end of tradition.
Would you consider making a video about the German academic fencing a.k.a. die Mensur?
Would be great, if you once make a video about the german "Korbschläger" and "Mensur"😊
That sabre was from infrantry sabre rather than cavalry does not explain the restriction of hit area. I wouldn't rule out that young cadets would start without horses, and in a second phase, they would try avoid hitting the exercise horses, even if, in the end phase, they need to protect the horse in real combat
Cavalry officers tended to have their duels on foot too...
I would like to offer a little bit on the Epee. Please forgive me, this is from my Epee coach and she studied in France to become a coach, so I didn't get this first hand from a historian. She presented the idea that the foil came first to emulate the small sword but the epee was devised because the foil was not stiff enough to emulate how the small sword behaved and it's rule set with no rights of way was also to emulate that in a duel no one cared for such things. She also postulated that 'rights of way' were originally introduced to train a duelist to make good choices about how to survive their opponents counter thrust, too many double kills in duels because while your blade is stuck in the other person, their blade is stuck in you, so to gain the right of way correctly is to make safe your attack.
The misconception is that you don't need to gain the right of way. If someone attacks first, you have to react, to defend yourself before you can do anything else. That's a safe tactic if you want to survive your opponent. The goal is not just to kill, it's to kill without being killed.
Please do a video about German academic fencing.
Ooh, don't forget the Italian grip on both the foil and épée!
The epee comes from a practice version (buttoned version) of a late rapier (1800ish, Spanish only) and its Spain-influenced South-Italian variants (cf. smarra). its a 40" blade that feels basically like a modern epee. It's so obscure that modern Olympic fencing types confuse its introduction as being related to an actual (1600ish) rapier rather than a bone thrown back in the day to south Italians and what *they* wanted to be the new default "weapon" of the new sport. As to whether sharp smarras were actually used for real 1st blood duels more so than the few remaining sharp smallswords in the 19th century I dont know, I suspect so, probably for cultural, Spain-related reasons. The sabre is largely related to when Italians started going bonkers for super-light sabres in the 1880s and introduced them into Austria-Hungary. 10-20 years later the cancer had spread to most Salles in Europe. Not many people in total were responsible for that shift. There was a thing called a duelling sabre, but I would hesitate to say either they or practice sabres were significantly different to their equivalents in other parts of Europe before then, certainly not in Radaelli's day, only slightly (100g~) lighter.
Radaelli based much of his system off the issues he found Italian cavalry had (who tended to use lighter sabres), and the reason people moved to radaellian sabres was they lost the risk of hand injuries and so could train more. Italianate sabre wasnt a cancer, it was a cure.
@@bigmoz9900 I think you misinterpreted what I was saying. I was talking about the super-light post-Radaelli sabres that took off later, akin to modern Olympic ones.
If I could change some things about olympic fencing, I would change: the grips: banning pistolgrips and allow only traditional sword grips. I would change the shape of the sabre. The current "sabre" of olympic sabre fencing is by no means a sabre for my understanding. A sabre has a curved and flattened out blade as you know. I would only allow historic recreations of sabres for sabre fencing. And I would bring up the weight of all the swords, up to historic level. So a sabre would weigh in at 800 to 1000 g again. And I would allow the whole body as target for any kind of fencing.
Why does Sabre fencing have the target area above the waistline if it was based on infantry rather than cavalry?
Some schools allowed lower body targets, others didn't. They could not decide whether to allow it or not in the first few Olympics after 1896, but eventually decided that it was most fair to disallow low targets.... for reasons that are not entirely clear. Safety is sometimes quoted.
In Germany both small sword and épée are called Degen.
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Nice to see a fencing video, I started after being inspired by the legendary Bruce Dickinson
I used to see him at various fencing competitions. Never fenced him though, as he was sabruer and I was an epeeist. Fast and aggressive, but he had the tattiest kit I've ever seen considering his wealth at the time!
Most sports come from a need to practice military arts in a safe way. . My horse master would go out to the copts and cut meter or so switch to ride with. Also useful for lads to practice sword play with, he noted.
I can't but imagine the raw horror of hitting someone from a horse, full gallop, with that 1908 skewer. Instead of quick clean slice which ends life quicky, it kinda smashing someone's head with a edged rebar, cracking a skull like cracking an egg.
Did you see those epées de combat? They have small guards. _Small._ _Guards._
So the foil and the epee are both derived from the small sword?
Yes.
When you said, talking about the saber "The most massive amount of BS", your voice changed so much that you sounded like Ricky Gervais when he is "outraged" on his shows.