The USN Pacific Submarine Campaign - Hey, the torpedoes are working now! (Jul'43 - Dec'43)
Today we take a look at the second half of the second year of the USN's pacific sub campaign, the Mk14 finally comes under control, just in time for BuOrd to come up with their next 'bright idea'...
Many thanks for the copies of Adm Lockwoods correspondence and the testing documents go to: / milhistcurator !
Sources:
www.amazon.co.uk/Unrestricted-Warfare-Officers-Submarine-Victory/dp/047138495X
www.usni.org/press/books/silent-victory
www.amazon.co.uk/Silent-Service-World-War-Submarine/dp/1636241263
www.amazon.co.uk/Sink-Em-All-Submarine-Warfare/dp/1387400738
Footage from US National Archives video codes:
428-NPC-15502/17480/15499/17470/13396/15523/17485/13114
Naval History books, use code 'DRACH' for 25% off - www.usni.org/press/books?f%5B...
Free naval photos and channel posters - www.drachinifel.co.uk
Want to support the channel? - / drachinifel
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'Legionnaire' by Scott Buckley - released under CC-BY 4.0. www.scottbuckley.com.au
Pinned post for Q&A :)
I've heard about brothers being separated to prevent one event from wiping out an entire family. Were brothers kept from serving together aboard US submarines during WW2? Know any interesting anecdotes on the subject?
Maybe a little out of context but.. Why don't you leave the link in the description to the previous episodes of the series?
Would a IIWW submarine in North Atlantic have problem with icing? Would high ice buildup make the submarine lay on its side instead of capsize (hatches closed)? I imagine that electrolyte in batteries would not like it and diesel would leak from bottom of the tanks... What else? Would high ice buildup make it impossible to submerge?
In Call of Duty Infinite Warfare, the protagonist receives combat promotion to captain of a carrier (though it's more like a battlecarrier because it can fight toe to toe with other warships). This gives the player the ability to command the ship to be able to go and engage on whatever missions they want to, despite all this power, they still fight on the frontline, my two questions on this are: when did captains/other naval officers stop being active participants in combat historically? and do you think their is a rank (either still in use or historical) that would suit the protagonist better?
On the topic of American Submarines, which of the deck guns (4”, 3”/50,5”/25, etc) were the most effective?
Unbelievable how officials, knowing that the torpedoes were defective, dug their heels in and refused to solve the problem.
Um, do you know how bureaucracy works? Then it is not 'unbelievable' at all. If the torps do now work, then several Admirals would have to be held in account for that. Navy bureaucracy is the same all all others....NOBODY wanted to take the fall for that messup.
That’s normal bureaucrat stuff.
Yes I know we are in a world war where every ship matters. But I signed my name onto this sign off sheet and didn’t actually do what I should have, so need to cover my butt
Never underestimate the lack of common sense among people in positions of leadership.
It means admitting you might have been wrong about something.
Can we pause to celebrate Drach almost having 500k subs by just creating quality videos on a very niche subject? If you read this Drach, thank you for the happiness and knownledge you bring in our lives.
Fair point, I concur
Agreed!
Totally agree, Thank you Drach
Bro he pretty much reads all the comments.
Totally agree nobody comes even a close second 👏👏👏👏
11:20 the fact that the captain didn’t immediately ascend to a daemon prince of Khorne out of sheer rage was perhaps the most surprising thing of all.
Perhaps he was an adherent of Tzeentch, and was playing the long game…
Khorne was prevented from claiming any from the US Navy, as the Navy's rage was fueling a different god...... Our boy ascended to Daemon Prince of King
Nah, he stayed loyalist. He ascended to the Angry Marines and was XO of the Litany of Litany's Litany.
My favorite radio message of WW2. From Wahoo (on an earlier patrol) to Pearl Harbor -"Wahoo engaged in running gun battle with Japanese destroyer. Destroyer gunning, Wahoo running."
Gotta love that story of the soviet trawler captain. "Unknown sub? You sure, comrade?" "Do you want to explain to comrade Stalin why we are now possibly at war with the americans?" "Alright, unknown it is."
For the greater good. Even if American subs sink 10 trawlers they'd just cover it up to preserve the alliance.
NKVD officers interviewing the Trawler captain NKVD: so you where sunk Captain: yes by a American sub. NKVD: you mean a unkown sub. Captain: yes by a unkown sub.
Nah, the only reason you love the story is because your a redditor and thus a communist
In the wide open world sh*t happens sometimes, and the way you make up for it is to just say, _"Dude, we're sorry."_
@@GeneralJackRippergoing by US Liberty attack, the political masters of US Navy will never ever demand Israel learn that lesson.
I'm impressed by the captain who didn't die from a stroke after the incredible amount of fury from that absurd round of torpedo errors.
Especially after the detonator on the one torpedo he _didn't_ fire seemed to work fine after he got home...
Yeah but it was tested statically… in the field it would have most likely failed, and hopeful the captain knew that in his heart
@zedoktor979 That doesn't track. At the time, all they knew was that some tops exploded and others didn't; the one they brought back did. And once they did know, they found out the 'ideal' shots were the ones most likely to break the detonator. So there's little reason to think it performed better in testing than it would have in combat.
I served on Sperry's sister ship, USS Orion (AS18) out of La Maddalena, Sardinia. Spent three of my most formative years on that ship. I lolled and rolled my eyes about the witness of the torp launch being shut down and shewed away by brass: I can affirm that many Khaki types love to shut down sailors when they are trying to relay very relevant information... from personal experience
I too served on Orion and, as you, it was had a very enlightening time aboard. I got off in 76 before she went to the Med. I wound up as LPO of 38a Shop, and as such, found that the "brass" was more than interested with what we had to say. Edit/additions: When I went aboard Orion, I was a skimmer engineroom guy. They sent me to every school for Auxiliaryman and more! I was surrounded with Submariners and people with extraordinary talents in their fields, machinists, welders, electricians, you name it! Never been with a better bunch of people! We pioneered many new ways of dealing with problems. I see pictures of current submarines, using tools and scaffolding that we developed back then, because of problems we encountered. No one "genius" but many experienced minds, working together! The USS Orion was the most stimulating command I was in! One of the coolest things we came up with (totally for our own purpose, by accident, in pursuit of submarine repair) was to use liquid nitrogen (waste product from O2 plant) to clean the shop. Open the doors, pour LN2 on the workbenches, then the floor, take a smoke break outside, go back in, sweep up a pile or so of dirt, everything is SHINEY clean! Presto! One time we did that, the XO said everybody had to turn to until he inspected the work area, leaving FT. Lauderdale, soon as he was done, I called him up to come inspect our shop, we passed and had 3 days off, while everyone else cleaned! We were rewarded with an "impossible" job, that the manufacture turned down, the shipyard turned down, of course, our division officer volunteered us for. We did it. It took awhile. Taking casings and rotors for some BIG roots.type blowers, nothing else, and turning them into working units. That's a story!
How what happened with the Mk14 failed to result in people being cashiered and some sent to prison speaks volumes about being in the naval top brass and just being the cannon fodder. They canned Kimmel and Short for Pearl Harbor, but the wretched history of the Mk 14 torpedo was just buried.
Kimmel and Short were at Pearl Harbor...They were visible symbols of a catastrophe. Ralph Waldo Christie is obscure and his failure with the Mark 14 is not as visible, and was only known about in Navy circles, and that was nearly a year after now Rear Admiral Christie who was commander of submarines in the Southwest Pacific Theater. The man in charge of BuOrd at the time of the development of the Mark 14, who would have had a a role to play in it's failure was...check my notes here...The Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, Admiral William D. Leahy, who got the position after serving as CNO.
I think by the time they came to realize just how many avoidable defects were in the Mk14 and it became understood, they were balls deep in fixing it and getting the Mk18 sorted out. There really wasn't as much time and effort to spend on crucifying those who were likely not even in their pre-war positions anymore. Lockwood described how the torpedo factory at Sharon, PA, the BuORD, numerous submariners, and his own staff and friends who had ideas were all meeting and actually getting a handle on what was wrong and how to fix it in both torps. Cooperation had started to mesh and that would have been a bad time to start calling people out. Adm. King was keeping close tabs on it and that was good enough in terms of someone having your back as Lockwood needed.
Weirdly, I am going to side with not cashiering. That would send the message to never admit your mistakes. Monday QB: "You had to get these out without adequate testing. We are testing; I recommend you do some yourself." Open a door forward & invite to walk through together.
@@gochanging So much wrong here. "That would send the message to never admit your mistakes." No, it would send the message that you better find your mistakes before somebody else does. BuOrd had plenty of reasons and opportunities to perform "adequate testing", especially after the first reports from sub crews started arriving in early 1942. Instead they argued and blamed the sub crews for over a year without taking ANY action towards investigating potential issues. When one considers the downstream effects of all those failed attacks on Jap warships and cargo vessels, it is absolutely unthinkable that nobody involved was cashiered. And for you to imply that BuOrd "had to get these out without adequate testing" is asinine. The same arrogance which led BuOrd to blame sub crews for failed torpedo attacks, led them to not perform adequate testing. Yes, there was pressure to increase torpedo production quickly and not waste torpedos on testing. But a good officer would have pushed back hard, and insisted on applying basic scientific and engineering principles ("Does this thing work? How can we be sure?") before beginning full scale production.
It is called institutional bias --> MichState. OhioState. USC. UofMich. PennState. Catholic Church. Boy Scouts. Boeing. NASA. Countless others. If you're in an organization and they don't enthusiastically enforce rooting out rot you have rot.
I can't even fathom the frustration these men were faced with.
It was 6 foot beyond the Bureau of Ordnance's comprehension.
@@neiloflongbeck5705word games are best games
@@neiloflongbeck5705I see what you did there.
The frustration ran deep.
@@RCAvhstape I see what you're doing, and I'm groaning. take my thumbs up and get out.
USS Skate also gave Yamato a Christmas present in 1943: a working Mark 14 torpedo in her starboard quarter. Due to a design flaw in the joint that connected her torpedo bulge to her main armor belt, the large hole that resulted from the hit was deep enough to penetrate her armor at the waterline and admit enough seawater to flood the upper floors of her #3 turret magazine. Of course, Yamato wouldn’t sink, but she would spend January to April of 1944 undergoing repairs along with the installation of sloped plates to shore up the aforementioned joint between her torpedo bulge and armor belt.
YOU LIE! There were no "working" Mark 14 torpedo's" in 1943... (late 1944 is more like it...)
@@scottgiles7546A lucky Mark 14?
@@scottgiles7546 A Mark 14 that exploded in the right place at the right time was by definition a working torpedo. While most did not work, enough did to allow the BO to deny that there was anything wrong with them fo far too long.
Those super-firing 155 mm secondaries and their pedestals must’ve added an awful lot of tonnage to Yamato & Musashi. If they’d deleted those guns guns they could have also tucked their main battery in a lot closer and shortened their citadel.
So one of the main reasons that the torpedoes failed so miserably was that the submarine crews were very skilled at firing at the perfect 90 degree angle, while the weak torpedoes actually needed to be fired at the inferior 45 degree angle. When you are too skilled to use a bad weapon properly.
One of the main reasons one part of the torpedoes failed so miserably, you mean. Basically no system on those things worked properly.
The essence of being overqualified for a job
@@SnakebitSTI Well, the propulsion seemed to work well enough to punch holes in hulls. Basically the torpedo was just a big solid shot bullet.
there were like a dozen guidance and firing system issues that had to be resolved. the best interum solution was to just switch to contact detonators and set the depth settings to run as high as possible
The magnetic detonators were really finicky and most of the time they would either detonate early, or fail to detonate. That led to crews switching to contact detonators, which only slightly increased their success rates. If I remember correctly the contact detonators were being crushed by the impact too quickly to activate. The gyros were also occasionally installed backwards causing the torpedoes to circle back on the submarines that fired them. This led to the submarine crews doing their own inspections of the torpedoes internals, which was then used by the bureau of ordinance to shift blame and justify not looking into their unreliability. A small number of submarines having successful patrols and sinking tens of thousands of tons of shipping each was similarly used as proof that the torpedoes worked. I remember when reading about it, it was really hard to not be frustrated with the bureau of ordinance. That the torpedoes were unreliable was exceedingly obvious with the information that was brought to them.
The MK 14 works every time, 10% of the time.
the 14 is the success rate of detonation
I became buddies with an older co-worker, when he found out that I knew quite a bit about US Submarine ops in WWII. He was so happy to run into a 20 something that could understand what he was talking about. He told me once about how they were ordered to rendezvous with another sub in 1944 (he told me which one, but I can't remember). Being at sea for 60-90 days, meetings another sub was a highlight, especially when you knew guys on most of the boats. So they were looking forward to it. So they tried (and Lockwood at Pearl Harbor) tried to set it up. No replies.. After several days, they reluctantly drew the conclusion the other boat was gone. (Turns out he was a plankowner on the USS Grouper, on board for most of the war. When I knew him, he was president of the Kansas chapter of the US Submarine Veterans.)
Being a submariner in the US Pacific navy during the first years of the war must have been nothing but pain...I can only imagine how they felt when their weapons actually started blowing up and working like they were supposed to all along.
Just curious, is there a tendency for the submarine to pop-up after a rather heavy torpedo is launched.
@@Sherwoodyit really depends on what % of the ships weight the torpedo is. Midget subs where the torpedo is about 10% of the subs weight would buck wildly
@@justinreijnders8992 I’m thinking a full spread of 4 torpedoes would really throw off the buoyancy of the sub. I dive, and have occasionally dropped a weight. It can really throw you off.
How many of our subs were lost due to faulty torps. The Japanese Navy were really good with their submarine hunting skills.
I know it's been commented on ad nauseam, but the negligence in getting those Torpedoes to work was criminal and some of the brass needed to spend some time in the brigg.
I qualified in submarines in 1995 and I am STILL angry at how fucked the ordinance was for my brothers from 50 years before.
I hope your torpedos work now , my country has bought hundreds from you guys.
@@hellomoto2084 sadly (perhaps) we never got to fire warshot. But all the exercise torpedoes we shot worked just fine.
@@hellomoto2084I hope your country didn't get screwed as well. Our navy really is world class but our politicians and contractors are run of the mill types.
Excellent series. The only problem? Too much time between installments. The Tinosa episode was the highlight. I've read the Patrol report about the Tonan Maru III. From Daspit's report: "Torpedo # _ _.........hit. This torpedo was observed to hit amidship, then turn right, and leap clear of the water astern" "The commanding officer has trouble believing he actually saw this" This report is a classic. Totally professional, but barely disguises the rage. Ranks up there with Jim Coe's "Toilet Paper" memo.
When a mod breaks your Uboat session's physics engine:
I can only imagine how rewarding it must have been to rescue downed aircrew from near certain death. I get a bit emotional just watching the film 80 years later.
When he was an aviator, President George Bush was rescued by a USN sub.
@@jameswoodbury2806 There’s even film of it that he used in his campaigns.
When he was the youngest officer in the entire USN!
Amazing stuff, the US submarines saved the lives of plenty of Australian POWs , Navy crew and downed Aussie pilots. Tragically they sunk a few Jap ships carrying Allied soldiers but ended up saving some of the men.
@jameswoodbury2806 I saw an interview with bush talking about when his plane was shot down and losing his two crewmen. I think it was too. He was very emotional and felt completely responsible. I don't care for politicians either side of the aisle but Bush was a good man.
To give an idea of the target value of Tonan Maru III, it was a bit larger than the carrier Hiryu, and had been converted into a WW2 version of a super tanker ... at a time when fuel availability dictated how naval operations were carried out. Daspit not spontaneously combusting was remarkable.
he was running a high temperture
Can you imagine the impact US Submarines would have had if the torpedoes were working straight away while conducting unrestricted warfare?
“Impact”, indeed!
The war in the Pacific will be won a lot more shorter than predicted
Something similar happened with early German U-boat torps. They almost sank Warspite if not for a dud
@@kostakatsoulis2922 But it was fixed in a matter months.
@@FS2K4Pilot still hurt considering I'm pretty sure that wasn't the only capital ship they could've sunk
As a young man in high school, I used to walk through the cemetery in the small town in eastern Montana. One of the tombstones was a naval rating who served on the WAHOO, Obviously, this 'grave' did not hold a person but the honor was for the hero who had been one of the dead crew. I wish I could remember said person.
I may have found him: Arthur Irvin Bair, Torpedoman's Mate, Third Class, of Wibaux, Montana? He's the only crewman from the USS Wahoo listed as being from Montana. There's a website called On Eternal Patrol that lists US submariners lost in WW2, you can see his profile and picture if you search him there.
Just last night I was contemplating the torpedo debacle. I was trying to wrap my head around the idea of the USN having the equivalent of the Long Lance at the start of the war? How many ships would have Japan lost in the first year, the second, etc. How much earlier would her economy been in a shambles because of the scarcity of raw materials and fuel ? It boggles the mind.
I wonder if any one has counted how torpedo souvenirs that Japanese ships took back to harbor.😁😁
In this context, it's worth pointing out that the Japanese didn't really have enough merchantmen to supply its Pacific acquisitions even before the USN started sinking them.
The worst part about the Mark 14 debacle on the landward side was that nobody was ever held accountable for the failures which led to that whole situation.
Kind of like 9/11 I guess -
I can not take credit for this...perhaps Drach said this, but my favorite mental image I have for the USN Sub campaign in late '44-'45 are the seagulls from Finding Nemo calling out Mine! Mine! Mine!!
IJN: Ok, we dodged the subs. (The sky starts to speak in R-2800 twin wasp ).
I imagine many submarine COs had spent the period before, during and after the debriefing with smoke rising from their heads and turning various shades of red and purple.
That in turn gave Admiral King second-hand rage which he rightly directed at BuOrd.
@@hawkeye5955 there’s a reason why I gave King the nickname “Admiral Omniman.”
@@hawkeye5955 the only person that can bring the wrath of God down on the Bureau to start fixing those damn torpedoes.
The movie Operation Pacific covered the Torpedo problems and dropping the exploder hitting the metal plate as a child I didn't get it. now with this information I understand so much.
Yep John Wayne did that same thing, don't remember the movie he,was,walking,with the aisle of Two canes does anyone know the movie. Thanks great video and God Bless that severed in WW2
One of the worst parts about this is that the navy would do it again with their air-to-air missiles in Vietnam. Not nearly to the same extent though...
I still cringe out of my skeleton every time I watch a dogfight episode about Vietnam, just the missiles doing stupid sh*t like falling going the other way or failing to explode, and pilots don’t receiving any training leaving ww2 and korea veterans to carry the whole Air Force and navy on their shoulders. I don’t blame the pilots that leave for the civilian aviation during that time.
There was a reason they called them "missiles" and not "hitiles."
And the M16 as well, though that one was more deliberately sabotaged
@@BlackHawkBallisticThat was mostly thanks to the govt. changing the powder used in 5.56 ammunition and the fact that many users didn’t receive cleaning kits. Still a bureaucratic nightmare that got a lot of people killed, but not due to the rifle itself
That's McNamara's fault. He was too smart for his own good. @@BlackHawkBallistic
Something about Lockwood taking one look at his subordinate and just deciding to let him vent it all out on the spot is both amusing and strangely sort of heartwarming. Like "Im just gonna let him have this one, otherwise he might just go full section 8 right here and now."
The Japanese treated the Sea of Japan as their own personal sea. When US Subs started operating in those waters, it was an Oh Sh^t Moment for the Japanese.
USN Submarines: "We do a little trolling." *trollface*
It chokes me up a bit thinking about the final moments on Wahoo. Now on eternal patrol it certainly wasn't the ending anybody wanted. 🙏😔⚓️🇺🇲
I always found it interesting that two unrelated military units came up with the same conclusion, at about the same time. The units? The USN Submarine force, and the Luftwaffe Nachtjager arm. Both started painting their aircraft and ships black for night operations. Both subsequently determined that grays made better night camouflage.
Also why various forms of sneaky infantry gave up on all-black (save as a way to intimidate folks).
Yeah as it turns out, it's better to appear similar to your environment in all lighting conditions rather than trying to match the lighting conditions with your colors. Even so, the black paint jobs looked damn good.
I recall a very old article in a very old magazine about a very small and secret experiment during WW2 that used a novel form of night camouflage on aircraft to sneak up on surfaced U-boats. They covered the aircraft in lights. It was tested several times to good effect but the proliferation of air search radar made it useless. The test sub never spotted the plane until it heard the sound of engines.
@@GeneralJackRipperYehudi lights, yes. A very clever system.
@@wraithwyvern528 Ah, the good old SAS Pink Panther Landrovers are a classic example. Cool? Not really. Sneaky? Very much so!
Absolutely astounding that these terribly defective torpedoes were put into service without much if any testing.
They had testing. In "controlled" environments. Which was the problem. The real world is anything but controlled.
It was the depression. Testing costs money. _"The More Money You Save In Peace Time - the More You Bleed In War."_ -Cracker Jack .
The key systems of the Mark XIV torpedo were developed by, and under the supervision of, officers who owed their promotions to the alleged advanced features of the torpedo's systems. Their patrons - officers high in the Navy's command structure - would have looked bad if testing revealed that the features that they'd heaped praise and promotions on were, in fact, poorly engineered and defective. The designers limited the tests to ones they knew the components would pass, and their patrons blocked attempts to have additional testing performed to protect their protégés...and their own reputations. As bad as the Mark XIV was, at least it got fixed. Others didn't. You can virtually guarantee that, by 1943 at the latest, a growing number of Japanese naval cryptologists knew that the IJN'S codes had probably been broken by the US. Problem: Those same codes were the brain-children of very highly-placed officers in the IJN, who had loudly and publically presented them as unbreakable. Saying that their precious codes had been broken (and by hairy, smelly, barely civilized Anericans, yet) was, at best, a guarantee of dismissal and disgrace. It could very well have resulted in death, either through a polite invitation, or through being accused of being defeatist and disloyal to the Emperor. So they kept using the same system of codes throughout the war...and the US kept reading them. The Germans made much the same mistake with Enigma. Although some late-war developments (the RS44 cipher, for example) may indicate a recognition that Enigma might not be *quite* as secure as Berlin kept insisting it was.
They were making so few torpedoes, a full testing regime would have left them with few if any remaining torpedoes to actually issue to the submarines. And where they were testing had different magnetic and hydrodynamic features than the South Pacific
@@haroldcarfrey4206 The physical detonators were unaffected by magnetism. And of course they should have tested where the torps would be used. There is no excuse for failing to sufficiently test weapons that lives depend on.
Much like how Shattered Sword is the Japanese perspective on Midway, I think there's probably a fascinating story in Japan's thoughts on and appraisal of American torpedo problems. Surely, some intelligence officer somewhere was collating a large list of reports of merchant ships getting hit by these CLANGS now and then. Seems like an interesting story for someone with the time and understanding of both languages to dig up
I could try looking into it. Not sure if I’d be able to find anything or not
@@mistertagnan I'd love to hear about it if your turn anything up, but don't feel pressured or anything.
Thanks for giving a shout out to the USS Silversides. She's a bit out of the way for most people enamored with naval history, but if anyone with a love these kinds of things finds themselves in Michigan, head on over to Muskegon and giver her a visit. There is a wonderful little museum built for her that is well worth your time if you're in the area.
Another possible subject: The modifications done over the war to the "sails/fairwaters" and deck armament of US submarines, to reduce their visibility on the surface, and to increase firepower for various types of surface actions. A lot of this work was completed per the preference of the commanding officer, and a lot of the time, can be used to identify a specific submarine. The recently located USS Albacore was identified by the wrecks modifications to its cut down sail
Really weird, I was just thinking of that and I read your comment. I read somewhere years ago that when some of the sub commanders received their boats they immediately started cutting down some of the superstructure and other bits to reduce that signature. Proving that those who were at Sea in the fight really did know best.
12:22 gotta love it when your torpedo goes dolphin and then immediately identifies a wave as a target
One more, Drach...Anecdotally I heard once that in 1943, a captured IJN pilot was questioned by NI and in an attempt to learn more about Japanese torpedoes, it was suggested to this pilot during the interview that Japanese torpedoes were having problems, would he care to elaborate? This Japanese officer turned to him, smiled and said, " No, we are not having any problems with our torpedoes... But you are."🥶
Honestly, I'm amazed at just how polite these messages to BuOrd are, given the circumstances. I can imagine that admiral, after hearing several reports such as the one from the sub commander who was *still* so enraged that he was barely able to give a report at all, would be similarly incensed. And yes, obviously "fix our fucking torpedoes you fucking incompetents" is not going to make it into official correspondence....but the sentiment can be built in through subtext, and it's really not. Instead, it very much sounds like the attitude is "let's just get this fixed rather than worry about blame." The cool, collected, rational response....something I would have said was the "adult" response, before growing up and realizing adults are perhaps even worse at maintaining self control than kids are.
That Soviet trawler captain was a bro!
My grandfather was a submariner on board a tench class purchased by canada. Hmcs rainbow 75 formarly USS Argonaut(ss-475) This series is quite meaningful to me Drach. Glad to see the latest installment.
Daspit was radiating so much heat from anger, that he could've ordered his boat to pull up to the Tonan Maru while he stood on the bow, and just ignited the target's fuel from his angry stare.
While the Japanese crew aboard now having a reason to be scared of a very angry American.
I’m still honestly surprised there wasn’t a legitimate kidnapping of a BuOrd official for a firsthand view of the torpedos in a live patrol setting.
Thanks for a journey back in time. I toured the Bowfin in 1998 and the Drum in 2022 and learned that I haven't quite shed my claustrophobia.
Id love to see the reports of what the japanese thought about these torpedos, especially the whaler. One imagines something along the lines of "the americans keep denting our ships and sometimes putting holes in them, they must have forgot to put explosive inside"
Two of my uncles were on subs in WWII. Both made CPO in the 1950. At family gatherings there was lots of talk about the Mark 14 troubles. Younger family members were banned from the talk when they had to use special words in their descriptions of the troubles. Another uncle was captured on Bataan. He was later transported to Japan as slave labor. A ship in front and another behind, also transporting POWs were sunk by subs. He was put to work as a coal miner. After the war, he returned on a carrier with another uncle as a crew member.
Curious how we would see a repeat of the La Perouse Strait Expedition two years later, with USS Barb and her rocket launcher taking the place of Narwhal and her guns.
Fluckey's book about his time commanding Barb is a riot. The man was ballsy, very good, and very lucky.
Barb was shitposting on japan irl. i can only imagine its machine spirit giggling all the way back to the main fleet after the locomotive incident.
@@scooterdescooter4018 singing praises to the Omnissiah the entire way
58:31 mark Drach torpedo, no defects observed. 5 years of flawless service
The two most dishonorable failings by US Navy officers in WWII, both caused by navy academy loyalty. The coverup of the torpedo failures by the academy grads, and stealing the credit for Midway from a mustang officer to assign it to fellow academy grads.
Mustang officer? Elaborate pls
@@LuckyFlanker13i think he means Spruance
@@CharlesYuditsky is he implying that Fletcher got all the credit for a victory that should’ve belonged to Spruance?
@@LuckyFlanker13 i think so
@@LuckyFlanker13 mustang officer is term used for an officer who started their navy career as an enlisted member, generally rising to Chief Petty Officer, before getting a commission to officer
I just happened to be at the Carnegie science center in Pittsburgh today which is the home of the USS requin. They have on display a mk14 torpedo. I object to the placard “the yellow paint color signifies that this torpedo is unarmed outfitted with a non exploding training warhead” which is of course redundant as the real warheads were also non exploding.
Amazing video as always. As the son and grandson of sub drivers, I appreciate the attention to detail and recognition of heroism. Given the amount of time you spent on the lifeguard mission and Richard O'Kane in several of your vids, when you get around to '44, please tell the world about O'Kane's mission off Truk (Tang's 2nd patrol) in as much detail as possible; fishing out aviators while dueling shore batteries is just about as insane as it comes, but was just another day for O'Kane.
everybody's gangsta until the enemy torpedoes start working
They did not have a choice, Admiral God of Wrath have threatened to attached them to the Torpedoes if they do not solve the issues 😂
Once launched Mr Torpedo is nobody's friend. The Mighty Jingles. Random WoWS videos. In WoWS I once got a same team kill driving USS St Louis at maximum range with one hit. 😮
I've been a real fan of the silent service since reading "Silent Victory" back in elementary school. I greatly appreciate your efforts here to highlight their successes and disappointments. Thank you. Very well done, indeed.
Every Submarine crew ithe US: FOR GOD SAKE FIX THESE DAMN THINGS Bureaucratic officers: oh come on guys it's not that bad just watch *they then go on command only to face the same thing* see guys it's not that bad *trying to maintain composure*
Submarine Crews: GET HIM!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! (Sub crews pull out torches and pitch forks).
"The torpedo is fine, you incompetent, lowlife sailors just keep breaking them." Until pressure from within the Navy command structure became strong enough to overcome the need to protect a fellow ring-knocker by *not* admitting that his design was an abject failure. Note: "Ring knocker" refers to the alleged act of tapping one's Annapolis class ring on the table as a signal for all other Academy graduates to rush to one's defense.
At the time of WWII the La Perouse Strait had Japanese territory on BOTH sides since the southern half of Sakhalin Island had been part of Japan since the Russo-Japanese War.
While being hampered by the inherently limited nature of these once-upon-a-time highly secret technical documentary pieces of evidence in the form of sensitive wartime correspondence, photos, and letters, Drach nevertheless is able to walk us through this torturous flow path of the various problems BUORD faced during torpedo improvement with his detailed narrative style. Well done. He truly sets the bar for analyzing naval combat history, and in this case, something very close to my heart. I only have one piece of ink adorning my body, and of course it is two dolphins facing each other, flanking a submarine running on the surface, bow planes rigged for dive. That is all.
I’m an artillery guy and was in a Pershing Missile unit where I heard this story; the new warhead was being looked at by the brass and there were lots of brags about how great the multiple detonating systems worked. A young 1st lieutenant with a masters degree in aerospace engineering listened for a bit, picked up a fire ax and nailed the point of the warhead with the flat of the ax. Every one was furious and the manufacturer team were demanding his head until he pointed to the readouts proving the impact detonator had failed to function. The factory team was still furious until the 3 star pointed out that impact with the earth was a lot more violent than a lieutenant with an ax. Seems the LT’s father had been a sub sailor in WW2 and knew about point detonators and impact forces. Thank God we never had to use them for real but it live fire testing with instrumented warheads the point detonators always worked. Don’t know if that’s a true story but that’s what some of the old hands at the school kept saying.
I love the picture of Drach inside of the torpedo tube. My first battle station on the SSBN 658 was "Torpedo Reload Party". Also, my first patrol included a trip to the Bahamas so the ship could be "recertified" to carry the MK48 Torpedo. Boomers of that era had no automatic or hydraulic assisted reload capability and we used block and tackle as these WWII boats had used. It was all fun and exciting for a 20 year old "Non-Qual". When asked if I would like to "Fire the Tube" I of course jumped at the chance. That was when I was told of the tradition that the person firing the tube, would then enter and clean the tube afterward. When I had wiggled in far enough, the tube door was closed by the older crewmen, I was then subjected to short bursts of alternating sea water and blow down air. The sonar operators recorded my screaming and yelling along with my threats of death to the torpedomen should I survive. This provided hours of entertainment for the crew on my first patrol as the tape was gleefully replayed by the sonarmen for anyone who asked.
Great companion episode for the excellent podcast of Seth and Bill. I loved their episodes on USS Wahoo, Tang and Barb. Bill adds a great special sauce, and can't wait for your next appearance on their show.
I’ve been waiting for this one! I love this series on the US subs
I can really recommend the podcast / youtube channel The Unauthorized History of the Pacific War. They really go into submarine warfare, and have great guests like their official wingman Jon Parshal and also Drachinifel for a few topics.
I've been obsessing over USN fleet boats for the past few weeks so it's great to see this in my feed. great work as usual, Drach
Who would have thought that working torpedos that are not likely to sink your own submarine would be an effective weapon?
It baffles the mind…
Some diagrams of these various detonators and their location in the torpedo would be very helpful. I don't understand why the firing pin was made from aluminum. Aluminum is soft and galls easily. Hardened steel guide rails, along with a hardened steel firing pin, or at least hardened steel lugs to engage the guide rails, would make it a lot harder to jam.
@ 58:43 Those white "circles" are to let the Censors know what to remove for any photographs of the ship that are to be released to the General Public....
Thanks!
USS Muskallunge. A salt water boat named for a fresh water fish.
So was the bowfin
10:35 - 11:38 I have a mind to think that Commander Daspit was about ten seconds from becoming the first Demon Prince of Khorne with how angry the poor guy was.
Why nobody at Bureau of Ordinance and the Newport Torpedo Station was not court martialed for this will always escape me.
Absolutely!
I always felt bad for USS Cisco (SS-290) As she was lost on her very first war patrol near Mindanao in the Philippines on Sep 28th, 1943. One of her attackers the gunboat _Karatsu_ was once the USS Luzon, captured by Japanese forces and set against her former owners. _Karatsu_ would later have her bow blown off by the USS Narwhal (SS-167)
"Are we so incompetent that we made defective torpedoes and it's now been proven to us that they are!? No. It's the submariners that are wrong."
Good snowy Anchorage morning and thanks for the fresh post! I did not realize the nature and number of U.S. sub losses against the Japanese. Appreciate the many details of their hunter frustrations with the Mark 14 torpedoes and their 'hunted' experiences wherein they survived or did not. Well done!
Still a bit snowy on the Kenai as well. I agree on it being a good video
Awesome. Ever since I learned about the U.S. issues with torpedoes in WWII, any more information is welcome.
He has a nice video about the Mk-14 called 'Failure like Onions'
@@GeneralJackRipperLayeeeerrrsss.
@@GeneralJackRipper Yep, seen it several times. :)
Mk14. The lawn darts of the sea. 🐿
Lawn darts were way more lethal than the early mk14s
@@hauptmann6 well getting hit by a very dull lawn dart really hurts when it hits your shoulder.
Drach loves this topic for a few reasons , viz. his engineering background puts him in a unique position to analyze the mechanical reasons behind the Mark 14’s failure and fix AND his delight in shaming the very shameable Bureau of Ordnance!
I very much enjoy the Pacific sub stories. Thank you!
article 1: the boss is always right, article 2: if the leader is wrong, refer to article 1! article 3: if neither of the two previous articles can be applied, place the blame on a subordinate!
Damn, I mean if the Lexington offers you “Anything you want” (and you don’t go for the ice cream maker) why not go for a dual 5” to stick where the 3” deck gun went…
Because it won't fit on thr sub's deck? The old single 5"/25 guns were as big as could manage, if they could find some.
@@christopherreed4723 bah, logic means nothing when it comes to “Moar Dakka”. If US ships can eventually end up with an improbable amount of AA guns, blaging a twin 5” turret onto a subs deck can’t be any harder. You just need to be creative. ;P
@@garygenerous8982 Well, I *suppose* you could weld two Gatos together. By bridging the foredecks you *might* be able to fit the turret ring of the twin 5"/38 onto the result. The below-deck structures - machinery room, powered ammo lifts, magazines etc - would require some very serious engineering gymnastics to shoehorn into the sub, though. And the result would still look like a prop from Waterworld. 😄
@@christopherreed4723 see there is the ingenuity I was talking about ;P
@@christopherreed4723 or just make a mother of all Submarine Cruisers.
This is the naval equivalent of fighting drunk Mike Tyson and he starts to sober up
Naming submarines "Permit" and "plunger" (the latter used to unclog toilets in American English) is arguably a bold move already.
Plunge is also to boldly dive into something.
I know, @@kerberos623 , but we always use "diver" on this side of The Pond. kzhead.info/sun/ZdCvo5Z-sXhsZ6c/bejne.html
Drach, this video is an example of the fine work you've done. The research, the photos, the color film footage, and your narration is all a pleasure to watch.
Working US torpedoes is like the Kamchatka not making trouble. Very unlikely.
No.
The torpedoes were sorted out in the closing years of the war. The Kamchatka on the other hand ended up being a punching bag for Japanese gunfire.
@@hawkeye5955 and possibly fired by the Russians as well.
You can find the Australian POWs that were rescued by US submarine crews in WW2 on YT. It’s great footage, I urge anyone to listen to the stories and the deep appreciation of those saved. Chokes a man up hearing these heroic tales.
The Mark 14 and Mark 13 Torpedoes... historical evidence of the immortality of Good Idea Fairy
44:44 I believe you mean they would have been "interned". As for being "interred", they were -- in the Wahoo on the sea bottom. Sad story. I'd never heard all the details before. Great video.
Thank you for saying it. Apparently no one owns dictionaries any longer. See the repeated confusion regarding the words "ordinance" and "ordnance" that plagues comment sections of military-related videos.
Shooting at 45 degrees improved total us torpedo performance... amazing considering aiming for a glancing shot leaves more margin to miss.
You don't aim for a glancing shot, you just shoot on a less than ideal trajectory.
"resolve the impact forces in two planes" as it is said in colloquial Engineer speak.
Not all engineers are good teachers, but you’re one of the best
Its funny German detonators had same issue at glancing shot, but worked well at 90 degrees hits. Maybe next time..
Hey Drach, you made a mistake at 1:40. La Perouse strait in 1943 was wholly in Japanese hands (iow both sides). The southern part of Sakhalin island being part of Japan since the end of the 1905 war with Russia. The Sovietunion captured it in august and september 1945.
Hate to be that guy, but the La Perouse Strait in 1943 was bracketed on both sides by Japanese territory, making the submarine transit much more perilous. The USSR didn't regain control of southern Sakhalin Island until 1945.
One thing brought up by Clay Blair's excellent Silent Victory books was how over the course of 1943 a generational change in U.S. sub captains was taking place. At the start of the war and through 1942, most were older skippers, brought up by pre-war doctrine. But by the end of '43 many of these had been replaced by captains who had come out of the USNA during the 30's, and represented a more 'imaginative' breed of skippers.
And quite a few PT and Submarine officers were rapidly trained Reservists.
Ching Lee would have never let those torpedoes slip through. I bet it would literally take him 5 mins to fix them.
The 3"/50 deck gun was marginal at best. Over the course of the war, 4"/50s (removed from 4-pipers converted to fast transports?) and 5"/25s (AA guns that were replaced on some ships with the superior 5"/38s) were adapted as they became available and sub skippers requested them. The older V boats had 5"/51 or 6"/53 deck guns, but these boats were older, crankier, and few in number.
Practically 2 years after our entry into the war, still trying to create a reliable torpedo is criminal.
It took a decade to figure out the LCS is useless. Two years is practically a blink of the eyes in military engineering terms.
Those declassification slips are bringing back some nice memories.. Thx for reminding me Drach. You're a legend and the people working in Maryland are as well.
4:33 That Soviet trawler captain did US-Soviet relations a *massive* favor.
I'm inclined to think that many times in those situations the Soviets just looked the other way as they had no love at all for the Japanese.
If Monson's test had the torpedo gone off during the exam it wouldn't hurt the Techs! (Navy humor) It wouldn't hurt them because they would haven't felt a thing!
Love the pirate themed theme ^^
Drach, once again you’ve done an excellent job of combing technical and human stories. Thank you.
Cool to see the BAR make guest appearance in the A gun footage.
Actual engineer being told his torpedo isnt working: "It's not working?! WTF?! Okay. Lets get to work figuring this out. Give me the details and we will fix it ASAP! My name WILL NOT be attached to something failing this bad! If it's not salvageable we will design a new one from scratch if needs be!" (starts working on potential solutions) Guy with a star or 2 on his shoulders being told his Torpedo doesn't work at all: "WHAT! HOW DARE YOU! THAT'S MY SUPER MEGA HYPER AWESOME CHOCOLATY COATED SUPER TORPEDO! THERE'S NO WAY MY NAME COULD BE ASSOCIATED WITH SUCH A FAILURE AS YOU DESCRIBE! IF EVERY ONE FIRED FAILED IT MUST BE BECAUSE NOBODY AT ALL OTHER THAN ME AND MY DUDES KNOWS HOW TO ACTUALLY DO ANYTHING RIGHT! GET OUT OF MY OFFICE!" (throws tantrum like a child)
For those wondering the high-line transfer is movies:-)
4:30 - I get the feeling there was a call from the Russian consulate to the US afterwards to the effect of, "Please have your subs stop 'just showing up' to rescue our crews after a 'mysterious' sub shelled our ships."
Woo! Been rewatching the older US Sub Campaign videos for the last couple weeks, great timing!