SA80 History: L85 A1 vs A2 (and the coming A3)
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At last, we have reached the L85A2, when the rifle was finally made into something reliable and effective. In 1995, after extensive public scandal from the L85A1's shortcomings being blatantly exposed in the first Gulf War, Heckler & Koch was given a contract to retrofit the rifles. At the time H&K was owned by British Aerospace, so this remained an arguably British program. The H&K retrofit consisted largely of subtle changes to materials, tolerancing, and finish, but it would lead to very significant improvements in performance (these were the ares where the original Enfield design team had the least experience).
The new A2 rifles were introduced into service starting in 2001, and have receiver widely positive reviews. This is the rifle that the L85 could have and should have been from the very beginning. In addition, further improvements will likely lead to an A3 variant in the relatively near future. Currently the main improvement is HK's "A3" (not yet a government designation) upper receiver, which is stronger and has an improved optics mounting rail.
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H&K : So... What do you wanna fix British : L85A1 H&K : What's the problem? British : Yes
they kept the cuteness I dunno, I think the L85 form to be "cute".
-CFW. Magic- I think the sa 80 is the most beautiful modern day military rifle
A3 is here www.forces.net/sites/default/files/styles/inline_image/public/new%20rifle.jpg?itok=JyebSBc8
H&K: The rifle....after all these years? UK: Always.
@@magic_cfw I have a fondness for bullpups, and I can't even really say why. Wish I could shoot one…
Eh, the only thing that needed to be fixed was the trigger, lower reciever, magazine, bolt, gas piston, charging handle, extractor, hammer, and springs; sure all of those are required for a gun to work properly, but whatever
EdM240B You forgot pistol grip, butt plate and hand guard
basically every single component except for the barrel and receiver and even that had to be modified in some way i would consider that a huge change
"But apart from the sanitation, the medicine, the education, wine, public order, irrigation, roads, a fresh water system, and public health, what else did HK do?"
@@AshleyPomeroy Never expected to see a Monty Python reference here. Made me chuckle :)
“Basically, the entire bloody gun needs to be rebuilt from the ground up, but it’s a good weapon I swear.”
"Let me show you the highlights of H&K's modifications' _Proceeds to take the whole rifle apart piece by piece_
How the fuck do you get the text like that?
@@damianchristopher205 in my case, I'm typing on a Samsung phine with the default keyboard, and using " * " , " _ " or " - " at the beggining and end of words will alter their presentation. For _italics_ I use underscore, for *bold* I use the * , and so on. Don't know if it works on other keyboards.
@@myrddrral thx, but I remembered seeing a part of it that was a different font size. Maybe I imagined it
Its super easy to take apart and re asemble
The most heartbreaking statement ever "Enfield didn't have a lot of experience designing firearms".
Enfield have more experience than many arms manufacturers, blame the m.o.d for cost cutting and rushing it into service
@@matthewfindlay2242 That's the tragedy of it all and I suppose BAE systems had a finger in the privatised pie. Shame they didn't develop the EM-2 and stop adopting whatever useless bloody round the Americans have set their heart on this week.
@@T8Hants Thank you very much, Thatcher.
@@T8Hants You do realize that 5.56 was developed in the late 70s, and was standardized by NATO in Oct 1980, right? That's almost 40 years with the majority of our military light rifles using a single cartridge.... I suppose you have a point if you're looking at *all* US military rifles, but they don't all do the same job, no?
@@Forge64 In 1951 with the EM-2 Britain had a bull pup, intermediate round firing rifle that was apparently thirty years ahead of its time. The adoption of 7.62 NATO was a retrograde step, which it took the thirty years to recover from. Had the Janson had that thirty years for continual development, undoubtedly we would have avoided the errors the early SA 80 suffered from. However because the US must have its own way, we went backwards for political reasons, not technological.
"We have a legimate proof that this is an A1 Rifle , because the buttplate has broken off"- ;DD Made my day
made me smile as well :D
Not gonna lie, I laughed out loud.
im surprised that's all that fell off
If the gun's broken when issued, or if it punches you in the face the moment you try to fire it, it's probably an A1.
I have an airsoft version, it's better made in Japan than the real thing. More reliable to!
How bloody annoying is it that most of HK's fixes were the kind of quality detail work that should have been done in the first place? ;-(
The Wicked Witch of the West (Thatcher) had sold off all our manufacturers to the highest bidder and everyone was on strike so then they all shut down. Then she pushed the weapon into service before it was even finished and everyone was wondering why it didn't work. Only took 30 years to get it fixed because nobody wanted to spend any money on putting it right
Or should have been done continously as part of the continued support of the weapons. We dont give F16s new names eventhough the ones still flying only really has the frame in common with the original.
He clearly explained the new names are to make the new parts clearly distinguishable.
@@AidanMillward Thatcher was the best thing to ever happen to the UK if it wasn't for her the UK would still probably be 90% coal power today with all parties terrified to change anything like Australia's political parties are today.
More annoying that they were mostly caused by penny-pinching which resulted in them needing to practically replace 90% of the parts anyway, meaning it cost MORE in the long run. Typical British government.
"...And you'll note that we have definitive proof that this is a legitimate A1 rifle because the buttplate has broken off" Come for the guns, stay for Ian
I remember seeing some Brits in Iraq carrying these strange looking rifle and I said "hey that's an interesting rifle" and one of em said "yea I rather have your M4" while his buddys laughed. I always thought it was funny but had no idea of the bad reputation of L85 lol.
Lmao yep
A2>m4
They still have that bad reputation amongst the dinosaurs in the forces who used/tried to use the A1. It's a shame really because the A2s are fantastic rifles but they've got the bad rep now.
Brad Cogan I think Ian mentioned that in the L85A1 video. Namely, how bad the reputation on the first guns were so bad that it will probably never recover its reputation. After all, the M16 has a few issues when it first entered service which were fixed within a year, and still has a lingering reputation as an unreliable piece of trash.
Most I know who've done a lot of work with them who saw a lot of contact were issued A2's actually prefer the sa80's over m4's. Folks I've come across who bitched about them to the degree you hear about are mostly older blokes who mostly/solely had experience of the A1 or younger remfs from none infantry trades who didn't get to use the decent platforms much outside of during training at most. Have mates (or were rather in most cases as majority are out now) in reme and so on so not knocking them as there is a need for many roles, however they were the ones I heard this shit from more than anyone with experience. They have their downsides such as weight (unsurprising with the construction and that length of barrel despite such a short overall platform), and nitpicking the charging handles can be prone to breaking and so on but they are generally a solid platform and most issues I heard were from mongs not cleaning them properly. I've heard some bitch with shit like if they are that good why doesn't the SAS use them but the regiment doesn't favour them for various reasons that are valid but related to their role such as weight and the fact when they need platforms of that length trading lightweight for less less effective range is worth it, logistics of where they are operating, when weight is less of a concern and longer range platforms are called for there are better options but most of those blokes will tell you they respect it as a solid performing platform.
Not even gun Jesus can avoid the temptation to lay sarcasm on the fineties of original SA80 design choices.
The 1911 is a do all assault rifle capable of firing 45acp 1000 yards and still penetrate body armor. We don't need no silly M4, AK, AUG, SA80...etc. 1911 is only.
UnclePutte pretty ironic that the top special forces in the world use them.
@@ironmike2010 UK SAS uses Colt Canada C8s and shortened M4s for standard service rifles. en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special_Air_Service#Equipment
@Doom2exe How is any AR "Better" than another mechanically? Apart from having a piston driven gas system like the SEALS do? The only thing I can say that's better is that cold hammer forged barrels are more common in Canada for AR's. But even those are pretty common in the states now. Now do our troops get that? Probably not. But if you can clue me in on how they're better I'd appreciate it. I'm not being rude or anything I'd genuinely like to know.
“Blimey! Can you make it any heavier?” “Well we can hang a big Maglite on it.”
You've obviously never carried an SLR with a Starlight scope around the paddy fields........
I have humped an M60, various mortar components and a PRC 77 amount other things
That and you needed to add it's weight again in insulation tape just to keep the damn magazines from falling apart.
Starlight scope? Try an SLR with an IWS attached to the top. @@stuartjarman4930
This reminds me of the Only Fools and Horses bit about Trigger's "old" broom that had 17 new heads and 14 new handles in its time.
rudeboystu69 what? This makes no sense.
Lol that’s exactly what I was thinking!!
@@julianshepherd2038 It's the Ship of Theseus issue. The problem is two fold: 1: Identity doesn't have to be tangible. (It isn't tangible in itself!) So defining an object by something other than its material/substance is extremely common (e.g. its function). This is how 'my brush' can be different to 'a brush'. 2. The relationship between an object's identity and the pragmatic context of such identity can be seen in either direction: the history represents the ship or the ship represents the history, which then helps dictate which is more important to keep consistent/original/intact etc..
@Benghali In Platforms the joke is bureaucracy is 'thick' Trigger gets an award from his local government employers for having the same brush for so many years, in that time the brush head and handle were replaced so many times....it wasn't the same brush, like this weapon, so many parts replaced. Trigger is thick, but still outsmarted his employers.
@Bob 1 to be fair Bob the channel is mostly followed by Americans who have never been exposed to 'Only fools and horses' and with a name like 'Trigger' its easy to think of that part of a gun and be totally bemused. Do they call him 'Trigger' cos he carries a gun, no cos he looks like a horse.
This A2 is actually very good, I once put 5 mags through it in Afghan during a contact, even after t had been caked I dust.
I mean it's basically a bullpup AR-18 at the end of the day so if you design it properly (like the L85A2 does) it should be a very reliable firearm.
@Microwave just do as your screws tell you to, its a good weapon and you'll probaly end up using the A3 soon if you get through Training which Is practically the same weapon.
@Microwave good luck with it man I wish I could've got in but due to a medical issue (damaged patella tendons) I didn't get in but that was a couple years back now but I'm going in to be an instructor with the cadet force instead but good luck man I've got a lot of mates who have went through Harrogate and a couple who have now finished phase 2 training, if I may ask what regiment you going into?
@Microwave it's heavy compared to the M16 but very effective
On ex had to get rid of blank rounds put 23 full magazines through before a stopage. As long as its well oiled it will be no problem in my experience .
Didn’t do forward assist British squaddies: HEAVY HEAVY BREATHING
Wangy Mcwangg my thought exactly😂
Haha
Did you see the way he whacked tbe magazine in lol
In the A1 video he also says the SUSAT looks super tough and couldn't break. *breathes in tritum deeply'
Is forward assist still a nessecary thing with the A2?
We need a mud test of the A1. Although this might actually fail the ''l'm gonna fire five rounds to make sure it works'' -part.
Five? 😤😂😂😂😂
It would probably break and not work before jamming
You'd be lucky to fire five rounds without malfunction from a brand new rifle
@@Beloroth Nonsense. This rifle is an effective club. Mud makes it slippy though so thats a problem.
If you say the word mud near it, it'll fail. The A2 however will take anything you can throw at it.
I still have nightmares over the A1 during basic, if that version was to be introduced into service now the MOD would have so many law suits. I spent so long cleaning the thing and it still didn’t work. So many lads were given beastings because of that piece of shit because the British way is to blame the user and not the weapon system as the weapon system costs the government more to replace.
The MoD is a totally fucked up organisation of penny-pinching, inky fingered civil servants. It is logically to test the prototypes in all battlefield environments. Test the weapon to destruction, then re-engineer, then test again afterwards, if perfect put the weapon into mass productions. Easy, a child could think of it. That's what the Russians do with the AK.
@@elizabethtamp1537 They do test stuff and then ignore they findings, the DMS boot for example gave soldiers trench foot in the Falklands. The high leg version was only got rid of recently. who would think a card board and leather dust / glue insole(feroflex) that never dry's out in the field is a good idea?
@@peterwait641 They ignore the findings if those finding go against their theories. Theory is always more important than reality. Also, they think that if you lie and pretend a thing is of high quality, that makes it high quality. What, soldiers are getting hurt or killed because of their own equipment? Well, it has to be their fault. Problem solved.
@@Ocrilat I served in the US Marines from 76 to 97, very little difference between our ways and yours.
@@johnmcclain3887 Well, I live in the USA, so they are probably the same. What I'm talking about here is that what happened with this weapon (problems were ignored and covered up for years) is nothing new. The way I see it, it was and is a matter of their social class system, where upper-class theorists sneer at reality, and blame any problems with their theory in the field on the 'poor bloody infantry'. I'm mostly familiar with this from the 1920s and 30s, but it seems to me to fit that pattern.
The A2 is a great rifle. I used mine a lot and never once had a miss feed. I cleaned and zeroed it well whenever I could. My only complaint is it's weight with the SUSAT attached and how it feels clunky to hold. Also the TMH pin had a habbit of wanting to come out.
Weight is a a pro aswell though , more weight makes it a more stable firing platform...... Sucks carrying it though
The Army must have changed then. I zeroed mine whenever the Army told me to at 0 dark thirty. I like my comrades were forced to do it. Range booked for 01100, be at the Arms Kote at 0530 to draw weapons.....
My only issue was getting smacked with the working parts because the idiot next to me pulled his TMH pin too far and it sprung out
@@dulls8475 "Range booked for 1100, be at the Arms Kote at 0530 to draw weapons" And you should always be 15 minutes early, so 0515 to draw weapons, but only if you want to be at the back of the que, so 0500 then. No breakfast? Warned through orders = cookhouse by 0430. "Range booked for 1100" Arrive at range at 1030 and begin the REAL aim of the day - 10 hours of first aid and NBC "background activities". Finally get to shoot at 1700 with a rifle you haven't seen for 4 months, freezing cold and piss wet through - blag a shite score on APWT and then another hour of trying to get the damned thing spotless before getting back on the old Dennis Javelin back to camp. Another hours cleaning outside the armoury and then weapons hand-in. Next day, warned through orders for dirty rifle, back to the block and three clicks to freedom.
@@digitalradiohacker That sums up range day perfectly. You should have got a mucker in the butts to only patch the bad shots and leave the prior guys good shots for you to claim. It did not always work as your mucker might leave 21 holes in after firing 20 rounds. My favourite is that we always had one guy who would shoot at the target next to his. Without fail...
The Radway Green mags were a special sort of shit. Had to tape the bottom up, so it didn't spring open.
MajorLongDong I remember that. The bottom of 2 of my magazines had a tendency to pop out. I was very happy with the A2 when I got issued it.
I had a double feed off one while using an L98A1. Fucking hated that gun.
Is that why you see tape on every mag in the papers? And thanks for your service
When i was based in South Armagh in 1999 and Londonerry in 2001 we all got issued Colt mags. Much more reliable.
On the RG mags yes. The H&K steel mags and Magpul E-Mags are much more reliable, never had an issue
Ill-conceived design, non durable materials and shitty welding? Seems that the designers have worked for a British car manufacture before...
That was a cheap if perhaps accurate shot :P
Yes the UK taxpayer got fucked in the arse yet again !
Richard Maunder Nah. Tax never went up. They wasted their budget but the tax would have been the same either way
Tax goes up all the time when the UK lost over £800m per year in tax because of the hand gun ban in three parts of the UK 20 years ago they put more tax up on fuel, homes, parking etc , etc and now we have VAT at 20% as well. :( and your VERY right the Gov waste far too much taxpayers money because it's not there own money so they don't care how's it spent.
Richard Maunder Yes Tax goes up with Inflation but my point was we are already being screwed. We are always going to be screwed, Might aswell arch our backs and get on with it 😂 Also as an Ex-Navy (I hate this word because of the puns) Seaman I think the 2 great fuck off aircraft carriers we got that we cant even fill and the fancy Destroyers we have that have a bad habit of breaking down all the fucking time are prime examples of the government not giving a fuck
We trialled the weapon during our Winter Deployment in Norway in `86 and genuinely thought we were trialing a prototype. The faults were obvious, cheap plastic furniture didn`t like the cold, the mag was shite, fell off, got bent, the sight was assembled in air and froze up after a day or so, ,after firing one or two rounds the bolt carrier could freeze as it moved forward and the firer took his finger off the trigger giving the impression the weapon was safe with a round chambered, body heat would then melt the carrier enough so it would then continue forward and fire the next round. So many blokes were getting charged for negligent discharge, it became SOPs to make safe after firing, how tactical is that? And on and on and on. As someone trained on the SLR, I was amazed by it`s accuracy, the way your group shrank was very impressive and as mountain and arctic troops , the sling was fantastic. Carry it on your back like a bergan, across your chest with the berg buckle to drop extra length or my preferred way, under one arm for skiing. I thought all of these faults could be/ would be fixed by the time the rest of the Corps were issued with it, but the only thing they fixed was the sights were later assembled in dry nitrogen to avoid the condensation freezing issue. I don`t care that it`s now a "better weapon" I don`t care how much they spend on it, they cannot "fix" it`s elephant in the room problem. This is not an ambidextrous assault rifle. Think about that. And to support Phil`s post, HM Govt wanted to sell Enfield as a going concern with a full order book , it wasn`t Enfield`s fault.
The concept of the thing was great but the production, testing, some of the finer design choices were just awful and that's what made the A1 a piece of shit. The A2 is a great rifle though. All it took was redesigning basically the entire thing 😂
@@bradcogan8588 Its still the mini metro of the gun world, Maggie said that was wonderful as well. Sooner have FN SCAR !
I heard that plastic on the A1 also used to melt when first brought to the middle east
@@PaddyMorphimus They get pretty hot when shooting and I'm pretty sure the plastics are the same ones that were used on the A1s. I don't think it's the kind of plastic that melts, it seems like it would just go brittle with heat. I have had a couple of butt plates disintegrate on me.
@@PaddyMorphimus The insect repellent attacked the plastic !
I was lucky enough to be in service before and after the change's to the weapon system, the cocking handle was the single biggest change and made a huge difference. Oh and by the way the parts that are painted/sprayed red are so that the grunt's knew where to put oil when prepping/maintaining the weapon.
Looking at the slow motion the brass reflecting charging handle seems to be a gift straight from heaven O_o
DesRoin as a guy who had more than his fair share of hot brass getting inside his combat jacket, I can say it was. still have scars from that.
Even better at .25 speed
Funny I thought the exact opposite. While nice footage that seems to not be very positive ejection. As long as the round hangs around in the bolts cycling it almost causes a stoppage. This is an example of how you want that spent case OUT and AWAY from the ejection port. Maybe not so far as a HK roller delayed rifle or a Dragunov but more definite than this anemic ejection that seems to rely on the charging handle in part. Weak design. Holy shit a terribly designed weapon.
Mad Jakal I can only assume the ammunition they were using was lower charge for less wear on rifles that are effectively museum pieces and since they’ve only got a ~30m range. All my experience with the SA80 platform is that the cases eject much more vigorously than shown in the slow-mo footage Ian captured
@Mad Jakal yeh it really looked like that brass was liable to not want to leave.
H&K takes two seconds to show up a committee's decades of "firearms" "development." Proof that you can't replace experience. I wonder if when H&K's techs first looked at the SA80, if they all burst out laughing at all of the amateurish mistakes.
Well at the time H&K was British owned (not anymore, sold back to the Germans) so there was probably a few laughs followed by "look what the muppets did here!"
A gun put together by increasingly disillusioned engineers and techs who knew their jobs were about to be shitcanned. A problem most of the UK's industry suffered through/died under in the 70s/80s.
They wondered how they lost the war !
Bear in made BAE bought out Enfeild and made a fortune creating the crap, then bought H&K and made another fortune fixing the crap.
51WCDodge I wonder how much of the A1's poor finishing was due to an unhappy workforce who knew they were going to be shortly made redundant by B.A.E
Great review, I enjoyed your explanation. I used both the A1 and then the A2 whilst serving. The A1 was dreadful, the firing pin would regularly snap and the housing would very easily jam with live or spent cartridges. The upgraded A2 was a different beast and I never had any issues with it, it became a very pleasant accurate rifle to shoot.
About time you mentioned the A2 version. You're burning of the A1 image which was justified makes everyone think the L85A2 sucks. Which it doesn't. It's a great rifle.
Matsimus Gaming yeah I kinda wish he made more of an effort to mention that in the original A1 video, because there's a lot of people jumping on his ass in the comments, who probably only handled and are thinking about the A2
It's not a great rifle. It's a rifle that is finally reliable after far too long, and still behind its peers in most every category. The transition from L85A1 to L85A2 was from terrible rifle to adequate rifle. There is a reason the SAS stayed away from and continues to stay from the L85. The MoD even bought Colt Canada C8-CQB's two years ago to replace L85A2's with nuclear arsenal guards. That's not exactly a vote of confidence.
L98-A1GP was a beauty to shoot.
This thing is still a POS. this is the 21st century and this rebuilt, still iffy, right hand only bullpup is still outclassed by a rack grade AR. The SAS use armalites for a reason.
@@Gaspard129 The SAS does not 'stay away from the L85' - it uses it extensively. It often uses various other weapons because they have other roles, and in the assault rifle/carbine role the C8 is primarily just used for cross-compatibility with US and other forces using standard AR platforms.
I loved my SA80 even had zero issues with the A1 but the A2 was an improvement. I was in 1990-2014 did Iraq in 90 then Bosnia twice UN & NATO, then GWOT back to Iraq 2003 & 07 & finally Afghan in 2013. SA80s served me well my entire life
Yes. I know a guy who was in the infantry and toured Northern Ireland twice, and used the A2. He liked it. Christian Craighead said it was like jazz music .. most people really hate it, but you find a few who love it! LOL!
But the sling; the sling is a work of art, the best part of the SA80.
Best thing about norn iron. The sling. THE SLING.
but but but... Karl from Inrange hates 3 points and says they are absolute shit, possibly because he does 2 and 3 gun matches and doesn't lug guns 40 miles on a patrol. I loved the sling on my Airsoft L85 so much that I immediately got 3 points for my MP5 and P90 as well.
Could it be made into a slingshot? : D
Sling was brilliant pity they didnt follow with quality of sling to the rifle...initially
During my 5 year service as an infantry guardsman in th early 1990's the A1 was literally a part of my body (slept, ate, shit with it less than a foot away) It would jam continuously especially on full auto, we'd tie para cord to the magazine as the mag release catch would depress unintentionally.. Until the REME guys welded a housing round.
Jesus mate, my heart goes out to you for having just missed the pleasure of serving with the rugged and reliable L1A1 SLR.
REME helping to keep the punch in the Army's fist 👍👊
REME usually fist children so it's good they're changing hobbies.
Just curious, but how often would you actually fire it on full auto, and why? I thought most military training, especially in the infantry, was semi auto fire - mainly to conserve ammo. The LSW was designed to lay down the auto fire in a platoon.
I love that "tactical flashlight" :D take it off and you got yourself weapon better and more reliable than riffle itself;)
Take out the batteries, and replace with a small flask of whisky.
@@richieb7692 Even better!LOL
Take out the second “F” and you’ll have the proper spelling of “Rifle” ;)
What’s a riffle?
@@abefroman8202 the sound of H&K counting their fees for the upgrades!
What insightful pieces of video. I've really been enjoying the SA80 "series" with all the attention to detail and the small revisions. Excellent work!
“You can tell this is a genuine A1 rifle, as the butt plate has broken off” Oh god the shame haha. We couldn’t even fix it ourselves the shhhaammmmeeeeeeeee
IIRC, H&K was owned by a British company at the time, so technically you guys did?
Keyword: owned. H&K has always been a German company.
@@bryanadkins6776I’ve only recently learnt this too
And it was basically built to the original specification, the original a1 was built in a rush by a dying Enfield that let numerous production faults pass quality inspection. However there were modifications made for the a2 as upgrades but none crucial as I remember it
I was waiting for the range officer to cuff his lug, for the lack of forwards assist. Great vid! The rifle still gets shit because for its history, but it's now a very capable platform.
He also hit the bottom of magazine to lock it in place.
Barry Wanders What do you mean cuff his lug for not using the forward assist? I can't speak ENGLISH English so I've never heard that saying.
so a cuff of a lug is a smack around the ear, so on placing of magzine you tap/hit the cocking handle forward to ensure the first round is properly seated, even though this drill dates back to the a1 and was fixed for the a2
The mag and forward assist thing are remaining shadows of the old A1. You definitely don't need to do them in the A2 but it's just in case the ghosts of the A1 rear their heads 😂
"Zees Englishers cannot buildt a single sing, correctly can zey, Hans?" "Nein Otto, but zey are payingk us to fix zem! Das ist gut? ja?" *efficient German chuckles follow*
Wanderer628 a british company but with German employees and with a German manufacturing facility
Good to know US ignorance is still a thing, it's funny how i had the honour of serving with some US soldiers and none of them came off like the ignorant kids you bump into online, maybe some national service would show you to have some respect for military history and all the men and women who gave their lives.
Soren G well it wasn’t you was it. It was the US gov and Military at the time but ofc you want to talk like you he anything to do with it
It was British owned company not a British company the people that worked there where German so the guys who designed and worked on the parts and all that where most likely German. The more YOU know.
Wanderer628 british OWNED company, in German territory and with german staff. God how can people be so retarded is beyond me.
The most comprehensive and educational video of the L85s, by far! Thank you!
Really neat to see the A2 charging handle/brass deflector doing its thing. Such a small change, and it works so well!
I've shot the A1 and A2 as well as m16, M4, And the AUG. The A1 was horrific, but it was mainly down to the magazines . The mags originally made were tinny, thin metal construction and I was once told were supposed to be throw away made by the ammunition company radway green. As well the improvements you mentioned the new magazines really made a difference, I've shot this against its modern competitors and it isn't a bad rifle. It is very accurate, it's not brilliant on auto but in single shot it's very nice to shoot, us brits don't use auto much anyway as we are into Ammo conservation. I think when people slag it down they are mainly talking about the A1, which was pretty dire or using it on a video game....the Sa80a2 has served us very well. I've shot 800 plus rounds through this rifle in one sitting, as long as you look after it , will continue to fire.
The piss weak return springs I thought made a massive difference you could feel the bolt returning so much more crisply in the A2
Hi. Thanks for the vid. I would only argue that saying Enfield were not very capable refiners and finishers is a bit unfair. The L85A1 was a prototype that the MoD rushed into service arguing that it was 'ready enough'. Enfield told them it wasn't ready, they had identified most of the problems and had refinements ready including material choices, fit and finish but the MoD didn't give them a chance to finalise the development of the weapon. This wasn't a screw up by the manufacturer, it was an all too familiar Money grabbing, false economic political FUBAR made by the civilian bean counters at the MoD. I agree that that even the A2 has design flaws but Enfield knew the weapon wasn't ready, the politicians simply didn't care at the time.
I would also argue that the SA80 design was the last service design of the Enfield factory.
I'm sat looking at these changes thinking, Enfield had been making guns before Germany existed as a country, it looks like cost reasons.....
And this is why the UK government shouldn't be as central as it is. They don't know how to control or use money. The lot of them..for past 100 years, have been nothing but utter morons & wasteful idiots. The political system prior to that 100 years, wasn't...great, but people knew where they stood & politicians had the fore to at least admit to things or make changes that needed doing. Be these to a rifle or society (universal sufferage being one of those things!)
We trialled the weapon during our Winter Deployment in Norway in `86 and genuinely thought we were trialing a prototype. The faults were obvious, cheap plastic furniture didn`t like the cold, the mag was shite, fell off, got bent, the sight was assembled in air and froze up after a day or so, ,after firing one or two rounds the bolt carrier could freeze as it moved forward and the firer took his finger off the trigger giving the impression the weapon was safe with a round chambered, body heat would then melt the carrier enough so it would then continue forward and fire the next round. So many blokes were getting charged for negligent discharge, it became SOPs to make safe after firing, how tactical is that? And on and on and on. As someone trained on the SLR, I was amazed by it`s accuracy, the way your group shrank was very impressive and as mountain and arctic troops , the sling was fantastic. Carry it on your back like a bergan, across your chest with the berg buckle to drop extra length or my preferred way, under one arm for skiing. I thought all of these faults could be/ would be fixed by the time the rest of the Corps were issued with it, but the only thing they fixed was the sights were later assembled in dry nitrogen to avoid the condensation freezing issue. I don`t care that it`s now a "better weapon" I don`t care how much they spend on it, they cannot "fix" it`s elephant in the room problem. This is not an ambidextrous assault rifle. Think about that. And to support Phil`s post, HM Govt wanted to sell Enfield as a going concern with a full order book , it wasn`t Enfield`s fault.
And yet, after all the years spent developing this rifle, which was a pain in the butt as was the American M-16,. Then the Germans were brought in and unlike Enfield, who unable to get it done right, and not after too long, either. The Americans didnt need the Germans to get the M-16 into proper shape Either way, The Gov had to pay........they shoulda just spent properly the first time...
Love learning about the SA80, your videos on it are just superb. Your videos in general are superb, learn so much, you're a great educator of firearms!
This has been a most insightful group of vids concerning the various British current rifles. Brilliant & thanks.
Glad you enjoyed it! There are a few more videos coming about other parts of the SA80 program...
Atlanta Chrome I just wish they would bloody make it ambidextrous! I'm not look forward to using it when I go into basic training in September :(
Ben Jones. It's really not that big a problem. Especially if you haven't been trained to fire a rifle left handed before. When I joined I'd occasionally fired some bolt action rifles and shotguns on ranges and hunting, and I'm a lefty. So it was a bit of a surprise for me that I didn't have any difficulty transitioning to the L85.
Thanks, Ian! I've been waiting for this!
watching the case deflector work in slow mo is really cool!
+Forgotten Weapons, I would be really interested to know your final opinion on the L85A2? Compared to other rifles in use today.. Thanks you and great upload
I would also like to know Ian's opinion on bullpups and whether the "AR-15" of the future will be a well-made bullpup or not.
Can't believe I just watched the same upload again, 6 days later ffs
i think he touched upon the questions you asked in his latest two Q&A's to date. iirc, the A2 is a good gun, just too heavy in ian's opinion, since it's heavier than a fal. regarding the ar platform future, i remember him talking about internal advances over exterior, ie, better internals, but sticking with the tried and true design ergonomy. he seemed to think that bullpup might die out because it's too complex for the few advantages it offers as an assault rifle. this is from memory, so please go check out his vids if you're curious. both are about an hour long and he answers a lot of questions in those vids, so i might've confused and combined a couple of details.
If they manage to fix the issues with ambi-(un)friendliness, trigger pull, and extra complexity - then maybe. But that for the time being seems physically impossible.
I've heard that fact about it being heavier than a FAL before, but honestly I don't know where it comes from as the L1A1 weight 9.6 lbs empty and the L85 weighs 8.4 lbs.
this takes me back to the hours upon hours of cleaning my rifle. I actually miss it. It was relaxing.
Endex with a boiled egg and zoned out with exhaustion, a lovely feeling.
@@dulls8475 it was definitely just the relief of it being over and finally being able to sit down and relax.
@@munky342 I always remember the weapon cleaning at Endex. Eating a boiled egg and the quite chatter of the blokes. Sort of subdued but happy. then into the 4 tonner and the long trip back to England from Senybridge where even the crap suspension could not wake us up.
@@dulls8475 mate, the old Daf 4 tonners were dogshit to be in. But nothing was getting between me and sleep by that point. I'd have thrown hands with my csm for 10 minutes kip 😂
Ian...OUTSTANDING !!! This may be an overview but Its greatly appreciated as I never realized there were actually earlier versions of this weapon that actually...worked ? The discontinued Bushmaster m17S also uses the AR180 bolt and piston.
“ You know this is a legitimate L85A1 because the butt plate has broken off” that shit had me rolling, Ian’s dead pan deliveries are the best
Great review. This rifle sure did gain a bad reputation back in the day but it is now on its current state a very capable infantry rifle and I would certainly feel confident taking it into battle. For me it is more towards a pure rifle than a classic bullpup such as the Famas and as such will operate more like a marksman rifle. Thank you!!!
Thanks,Ian.Your weapon insights are really cool.
Back for a rewatch, that Maglight glued on the bottom always makes me smile 😃
The Magite is called 'Fakir'. Was used only in N.Ireland. Would be used when setting a vehicle checkpoint and the like to look for IED's placed at night.
MajorLongDong Odd name considering that means begger/penniless in many language.
That's it's actual name. Used it in Northern Ireland.
The 3 tours I did in NI, it was called "Streamer"
mac4564 why does the U.K feel the need to do tours of duty in its own back yard?
Mechanized Ape Because there was a small problem known as 'The Troubles'. The UK suffered from terrorism long before Islamic Terrorism was a thing.
“We can prove it’s an A1 because the butt plate has broken off” Love how he’s so casual about it.
this recent content, with GunJeez recataloging the royal armouries ... it's just fantastic. brilliant content, superb knowledge, very engaging. I for one am very grateful
I joined the MOD Royal Artillery around 1989 as they where introducing the new SA80 A1 at the time I thought it was a sweet weapon but looking at how it performed then gave me second thoughts 😉 glad they kept it in service and improved it👍 thank you for great vlog
this video was one of Ian's best
It's not just the weight that makes it controllable under full auto. The pivot point for that while firing will be half way between the action and the butt plate. Because of the great length between action and the foregrip you have much greater leverage to keep that rise balanced. _"Give me a lever and a place to stand and I will move the earth."_ Archimedes of Syracuse (c. 287 BC - c. 212 BC)
the best youtuber on this subject by far! great video!
What an excellent and informative documentary!
Also the idea with the left handed charging is that youre always in control of the rifle, as your right hand never leaves the pistol grip
Brought back some funny memories of the A1, especially the magazines, they’d burst open when firing, quickest mag dump ever 😭. Remember being attached to an Airborne unit when the A2 was shipped in, it was/is a good upgrade from the A1.
Can really see the utility of the changed charging handle. The deflector works amazing.
Very interesting Ian, thanks for sharing.
It’s actually mind boggling, the vast rift in experience and competence at design between these rifles’ designs
"You'll note, we have definitive proof that this is a legitimate A1 rifle because the buttplate has broken off."
That shit had me rolling
Great video, exellent explanation and very interesting.
Great video! Leeds is just down the road from me. Hope you enjoyed your stay in Yorkshire! Great content in your vids.
I can't be the only one who tried to wipe away the dot on the wall.
Mister Bearpunch There was a dot on the wall?
There... Are... Four... Lights!
Mister Bearpunch I kept wiping my phone screen but it was still there😂 not just me then. What’s with stupid annoying stuff on videos? Very interesting but OUT damn spot!! 😝
Lol I just tried
Was trying to scratch it when I say this comment
I don't know what it is but I really love the look of these guns compared to other military rifles across the world
Loved using the SA80 A2. Very good weapon.
As a person not at all familiar with firearms and weaponry, this was very informative and interesting to watch. Thumbs up.
I love how they summed up the differences between A1 and A2 in Top Gear that the new one just works.
The L85A1 was a dreadful weapon, but stoppage drills were on point as we were constantly clearing jams!
Thank you so much for this one. Heard the A3 rumors, glad to put that one to bed.
Great videos on the SA80.
About time the actual a3 was reviewed.
They had to be kidding with that massive Mag light on the forend of the A1!
Not at all, it was issued to address a particular requirement and a specific threat. During "The Troubles" in Northern Ireland the terrorists developed a hand-thrown anti-armour grenade which was capable of destroying the standard Army "Snatch" Land-rover patrol vehicles. The tactic was to launch them at the vehicle from throwing range and usually at night from areas of darkness. The answer was to equip the two guys on "Top-cover" in the vehicle and looking out of the roof hatch, with a way of illuminating alleyways and doorways as the vehicle drove past them, usually a fairly low speed. It was a very effective deterrent actually.
Your off hand handling is really impressive Ian. !!
I do enjoy watching your video's thanks
At the end when he was firing it, the ejection of the spent casing seemed fairly weak, compared to an AR15 platform. Is this typical with this rifle? It looked as if the charging handle was going to stovepipe a casing a couple of times.
The A1 was a pretty accurate rifle and the bullpup made it a good all round choice. Reliability was its biggest flaw, I had a lot of stoppages including the dreaded broken firing pin. When I got the A2 it was a hell of a lot better. The biggest shame was that the issues with the A1 were known early on but very few were fixed until much later than they should have been.
Another class video. No one like you on KZhead. Superb sir.
Amazing place you are in. Visited many times.
Would love to see a breakdown of the A3 variant to finish off this series on the SA80/L85.
Ian, thank you for doing these videos on the SA80 series. Even though it's right-handed & bullpup, how do you rate the L85 A2 overall now you've had a chance to put a few rounds through it?
I just came from playing game called Squad realizing how well made and recorded sounds in that game are. It's just incredible.
I shivered a little with that right hand mag load.
Adding the magazine release catch guard has saved thousands of pounds in lost magazines, from someone who has lost magazines 30 years ago haha
I never got a chance to use the A2 but I did with the A1 that had misfeeds all the time or you would have to adjust the gas plug to ensure the bolt cycled properly, a real uninspiring pile of crap, thank god HK sorted it out!.
There still aren't many A2 versions in service today with the upgraded flash eliminator. Excellent video!!!
You Sir, are an excellent historian, orator and demonstrator of weaponry. Well-bloody done.
I did like the rate of fire for this one. Seems really stable and easy to control the amount of rounds let off before trigger release
That mag light probably add 3 pounds to an already fairly heavy gun. Atleast H&K fixed this thing with the A2.
Excellent video. The really important question is how the regular army accepted the weapon when it was so clearly defective. Territorials, who had to qualify APWT to receive the bounty quickly realised the issues but were dismissed as unprofessional STABS by the "professionals".
Very informative mate thanks!
Brilliant video, loved it
As with so many British inventions it is a great design very poorly executed. Nothing wrong with the rifles except the workmanship and materials used in the A1. H&K saw this straight away but the damage was done to the reputation of a cutting edge design. I started on the FN L1A1 and LMG (Bren) and was retrained on the L85 and L86 (crow cannon) both of which I initially liked a lot. The A2 and now the A2* sorry A3 are the design properly executed. Great video as always from our saviour Gun Jesus 😇😉
"just those parts" yup just all the of the gun that does anything, just those parts, not much. I mean without those parts you have a metal box and a steel tube, but yeah whatever. XD
KyleNo4Mk2 A fancy rifled steel tube. But a useless fancy rifled steel tube.
Well, you can really see the difference the brass deflector makes in the slo mo shots.
Wow!!! That updated case kicker charging handle really works!!! In the high-speed shot it looks like it flexes a lot. I hope it is reinforced to prevent fatigue failures.
I wish he'd review the LSW variant just for giggles. If he already had then awesome!
PenguinzFTW too true, another piece on British engineering excellence.
I do like the handguard on the A1 but damn the A2 is just far superior. It might not be the best rifle but the British forces have done great things with them.
Great clip and subject.
'Doctrine' is also to forward assist when 'charging'. Apart from which, another very informative video.
And to tilt the weapon to the right when cocking rather to the left. This makes it more natural when clearing stoppages. Gravity helps stuck brass fall out.