The main criticism for super mario bros wonder has been that its boss fights against bowser jr and bowser were extremely underwhelming. Recently though I’ve been replaying all the 2D Mario games and sort of noticed that almost all the 2D Mario bosses are pretty bad. So today we’re gonna take a look at each 2D game to determine what makes the koopalings, boom boom, and so many others so bad!
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The biggest problem is No Batman :(
Ong ✊️ 😔
I guess you can say there is NOT something in my way.... (mmmmmmmmhmmm)
Sad
Is he stupid?
Don't you mean theres no Man?
I also want to say that, most of the koopaling bosses have nothing to do with the level there in. For example, Larry's torpedo castle has zero torpedo based obstacles in the actual boss. Or, Roy's conveyer castle has conveyers in it, until the boss where Roy has a Bill blaster instead.
That’s definitely a good point! I don’t necessarily think they HAVE to but it would definitely make the bosses more fitting
Tbf they prolly didnt add torpedos cos the bowser jr fight has them and its literally at the next level
this is exaclty why i love the galaxy games' bosses and the odyssey world bosses so much they were the final test for their respective world's mechanic
Mario is the goat of games the only bat man game that is better than any mario one is Lego batman the videogame
@@jaybentley8369 Do you think the first one is the best? I really liked Lego Batman 3
I've always said that the Koopalings wouldn't be so ill recieved if they actually tried to make them interesting. They have cool designs and personalities, but the amount of time you have to hit them is criminal. It's why I mostly never have a problem with Ludwig. Not only does he always have the most interesting patterns, he is also allowed to actually show it off. I really like your ideas on both how the Koopalings can be more than just more colourful Boom Booms but also how we can have them and cool new bosses too.
It's so weird. I remember the days of the Mario HQ and Neglected Mario Characters fansites. Fans LONGED for the Koopalings...villains of two of the greatest platformers ever made, and almost entirely absent throughout the 64 and GameCube eras. The fact that general consensus on them has almost entirely reversed speaks to how lackluster their implementation has been.
To be honest. I sometimes feel like they’re making their fights bad on purpose. Like, these fights can easily be fixed with common sense.
I played the hell out of Wii as a kid and I literally the only 2 bosses I can remember specifically because of how unique they were were Iggy and Ludwig.
The Koopalings had a ton of potential for wonder, they all have unique personalities and some like Ludwig ca flutter jump I wouldn't have minded to have them in Wonder
also want to mention that all the koopalings are named after famous musicians, they would have fit in like a glove if they were given enough thought even if they're technically overused
The one time they could’ve been really unique with them they only use Bowser Jr…
@@redactedinfo8557Who the fuck are Lemmy and Iggy named after?
Not only that but I'm sure they could use the unique features of the koopalings very well with the wonder effects ie. Iggy's hair turns into a palm, Wendy uses the rings to teleport or something
@@TheGoldenNick Yeah, the New Super Mario Bros games since Wii did had a ton of extra unique hazards for the koopalings And Paper Mario Color Splash added so much personality to them all So much missed potential now that they would have all this
no joke I was telling a friend about Bowser's palette swap brother yesterday. it's such a stupid and pointless piece of trivia that i kind of love it. Imagine being Bowser's brother, realizing you'll never be as cool as him.
Maybe his brother is the strategical mastermind while bowser does all the fighting.
It's my headcanon that he died back in the NES era and became Dry Bowser. (the other Dry Bowser, not the one who's actually just dead Bowser)
@@TheLordTash that actually sounds cool, but I don’t think the devs would to try something like it, in fact, Nintendo isn’t even doing much effort to explore the past of their important characters, I don’t think they would touch it even with a 10 foot pole, but I hope they’ll prove me or other peaple with the same idea wrong, but at this point I don’t even know.
It’s funnier that Bowser’s brother was never supposed to exist, he was supposed be one of the fake bowsers in the first game, but he’s blue because he’s not near to the axe that makes the real Bowser green in the game
So Basically, Bowser’s Brother is just a bullshit explanation for why bowser is blue, which gets discarded in later versions of Lost Levels by making him green
Idk man, iggy fight #4 is pretty epic
You joke, but his 4th fight in the series is the Chain Chomp one from NSMBWii which is actually a pretty memorable fight with a unique gimmick
@@TyGuy2462 it isn't a joke...
@@TyGuy2462 True. Wii U is also very good, where he slides into pipes to get on to the ceiling, shoot fire magic to summon a fire monster, drop from the ceiling for a """surprise""" attack to damage Mario, and his shell can slide left and right, and enter pipes.
@@Xenorvya Yeah! I like that one too
Use the Koopalings for the mid points, Bowser Jr for airships and unique world bosses = recipe for a successful experience
Also banish the broodals because they suck
No let’s just have bowser jr be our world bosses and have 0 mid bosses and the airships will have you pressing on a button, also some worlds won’t even have bosses🤷
@@CharcoaledmarmaladeThat’s what Mario Wonder did already!
And Bowser as the final boss of the game
@@markitoyoutuber I think that's the jo-
Replace all bosses with boom boom. Problem solved
It's repetition. Like in New Super Mario Bros DS, every Bowser Junior fight is basically the same with a slight difference. Oh no, the arena is _slippery,_ or it *moves.*
Are you talking about Wonder?
@@awesomeone2779 I said New Super Mario Bros DS, not Wonder.
@@Bryce_the_Woomy_Boi my bad, I'm kinda stupid lol
@@awesomeone2779 it's alright.
Oh god it moves that makes it impossible
Honestly I feel like Paper Mario Color Splash did a good job with the koopalings, they each were themed with the world they were in, (for example Larry riding a train and Ludwig’s Ludship) and they had different ways to fight them. I wonder how well that style would translate into a 2d Mario game.
It also helps that it was their debut Paper Mario appearance, so having the Koopalings there was ironically refreshing. Also, since it’s their only other appearance in a Mario RPG, they get to show off their personalities through their dialogue, which makes them more memorable.
@@WuhHuhThey’ve appeared in a few other RPGs, actually: Paper Jam, Superstar Saga (where they have dialog in the remake), and Bowser’s Inside Story + Bowser Jr’s Journey
I'm still wondering how they would behave in a 3d ambience (same as the broodals in a 2d ambience, I would love to see them in wonder) Nintendo should include the Koopalings in the next 3D Mario game
MORTON ON PEDAL STOOL!
@@WuhHuh I don't even consider Color Splash a RPG. It's more of an action-adventure game with a turn based battle system.
If there's one thing I wish Mario would borrow from Megaman, it's the approach to bosses. Even on the NES, Megaman games had bosses that were pretty intricate, interesting, and all distinct from one another. Their designs and gimmicks are intertwined with the stages they inhabit, giving them each a very strong sense of identity despite their relatively low screentime. I know these are two different series, but I've heard people say that the point platformers is to do platforming, but fight bosses, so why should it matter? But you definitely _can_ do bosses really well in a platforming game.
There are proper Nintendo games where Mario could borrow great part of their design; Kirby is a game that is mostly famous for the sheer amount of quality found on their boss fights, insteresting, varied. Of course it would be the incognite of if a Kirby Boss would work on a Mario playstile (Kirby has way more movility and resistance than Mario gameplay wise, after all) But a better example comes to mind, Donkey Kong Country R and TF bosses are... Incredible, not as intricate as Kirby ones, but fits the mold far better to Mario limitations compare to Kirbys, and it would lead to very memorable events. I also think that 3 hit boss fights are severely outdated nowadays, its get somewhat repetitive and handicaps all attacks bosses could potentially do, so those two examples seems like a good idea!
@@JoseViktor4099 Yeah that's true, there are a lot of 2D games with great bosses. Megaman was just the first series that came to mind
@@MishKoz like Cuphead Cuphead is very good for its bosses with their creativity and overall design which in turn adds to your previously mentioned strong sense of identity despite limited screentime
@@FloridusMan honestly that's very true, those bosses are extremely memorable and appealing. Though I'd argue Cuphead is more of a boss rush than a platformer like Mario lol
I mean Mega Man focuses way more on fighting enemies and finding enemy patterns than Mario does. I actually think the bosses in New Super Mario Bros DS is what they should build off of.
WHY IS COOL BOWSER NOT AN OFFICIAL BOSS FIGHT COME ON NINTENDO
FOR REALLL
Yeahhhhhhh@@RoshiBro08
He already is. Bowser is always cool
@@dasupamario5588 amen
Super Paper Mario, while not a mainline 2D game, probably has my favorite bosses from any 2D Mario. They’re easy, yes, but they’re all unique and fun. You do repeat fights sometimes, like O’Chunks and Mimi, but they’re typically midbosses and not the main boss of that chapter.
i agree, just about every boss fight in SPM makes it feel memorable. the worst example i can think of is chapter 6-2's fight against mimi because it's just fighting mimi again, but not only is the fight completely unique from her 2-4 fight, but it's also done with the context of her slowing you down to prevent you from stopping the end of that world.
I think the real issue is that for many of these fights you aren't really "fighting" the boss, you're just waiting for them to finish their invincibility cycle so you can jump on them again. There is so much waiting in these fights.
And just trying to jump over them is not enough, it's pretty much baby's challenge.
2:50 technically half the Jr. fights are supposed to be a little different since he puts on his bandana for the latter half of the game, giving him enough braincells to hide in his shell if you try to jump on him. Even though it makes the intentional way of fighting him a little tricker and more unique, it doesn't mean much when it's not impossible to chain-combo him 3 times, and his behavior change doesn't even matter if you can fireball him to win in 2 seconds
You can ground pound him to get it to two hits.
I liked the boss ideas in Yoshi’s Island, they are all larger versions of regular enemies and feel uniquely different. Also the Fight with Bowser was great.
The problem is that it’s not made for everyone, unlike the normal platforming. The platforming can be easy or hard depending on if you go for all collectibles, but boss fights are the same difficulty for everyone.
Fredy Fazbear should have been in Mario wonder, missed potential
That's kinda why platformers are very common for easy games, their difficulty isn't too important for a fun factor. But it doesn't translate well over to other genres
Ceave Gaming has an old video about the bosses in Super Mario Odyssey, that explains that the bosses can be easy to be accessible, but can have little shortcuts for more experienced players.
That’s literally what he’s complaining about in this video though, if you’re not fast enough to hit the boss at it comes out of its shell then you play the full thing and it’s easy. But if you play risky and quickly then you can speed run the boss
tbh invincibility moments for the koopalings is a bandaid fix. They should always be vulnerable but take more hits, less stun between hits, no sliding around in the shell, but attacks that can intercept you in the air so it's risky to chain hit them.
I just wanna say love the editing here that you put in this video. It's so well-established and I could never stop myself from grinning at the little FNAF and low-quality picture gags 😂👌
😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂👌👌👌👌👌👌👌👌
They need to have a mario vs Luigi boss fight where it’s like a computer of a second player going against you
They did that in Bowser’s fury
@@cosmicspacething3474they did?
@@cosmicspacething3474what?
@@cosmicspacething3474no they did not.. you’re talking about 2 player mode which is not the same
4:20 (nice) Dont worry, Odyssey! We're ok with multiple cool bowser references per video!
This man did not just insult the magnum opus that is Boom Boom fight #14
2:11 One thing you forgot to mention is that in the NES version, Clawgrip (or Clawglip, depending on which you prefer) was added to the game because in Doki Doki Panic, that fight was originally a third battle with Mouser.
That’s true, and Robirdo replaced one of the Tryclyde fights in The GBA port. So In that version they’re all unique except for Mouser, who still appears twice.
I think the best way to make bosses account for all skill levels is to just allow for high risk plays to defeat the bosses quicker. Odyssey does this for some of its bosses and they’re the best. You can stomp on topper during his spin attack or when he’s sliding on the ground to end the phase early, but it requires you to put yourself in harms way. If you’re a skilled player, it’ll let you complete the boss faster and if you’re not, you can just wait the attack out and they’ll eventually reveal their weak point naturally.
Wonder not imitating Yoshi's Island bosses (ie, regular enemy supe'd up on Kamek's magic) was a *HUGE* missed opportunity.
Odyssey's refusal to ever say Mollusque Lanceur's name always gets me
We don't talking about him
I feel like 2D Mario Bosses peaked in the first New Super Mario Bros game. It was such a great variety.
‘I hope they add Rango in the next mario kart game.‘’ what a legend
I still can’t believe how unbelievably bad the bosses were in Wonder. Not only did they do the Koopalings again and reskinned them to all look the same but the also just straight up made two worlds not even have a boss to begin with. I audibly laughed only my first playthrough after playing two world without any final level in a row. Also really enjoying the editing in this one. Great video.
Bro consumed too many Wonder Flowers
I liked that 2 worlds didn't have a boss, it saved me from being annoyed at Bowser Jr two extra times
This is why DK is more liked by the fans when it comes to bosses, while the first Country game had repeated bosses, the rest have unique boss fights minus the ghost Necky from Country 2, even Kirby has unique fights despite each one having a version of Whispy Woods
as a developer who is working on a 2D mario fangame, I can confirm this information is true
If you ever want to make the Koopalings bosses again, I feel like the best way for them to attack before the player does themselves is to make a Weak-Spot type boss. As in you either have to wait for the Koopaling to finish with their attack before you can do the same.
@@Colinjo6 either you wait, orr..? There's no 2nd option in your comment after that
@@DaBaldEagul Yeah, waiting. Or for more depth, make the bosses weak to certain Power Ups (I can’t tell you what because this guy’s fan game wasn’t even announced yet)
Here's my boss loadout: World 1-Tower: Larry World 1-Castle: New Boss World 2-Tower: Iggy World 2-Castle: New Boss World 3-Airship: Boom-Boom World 3-Tower: Wendy World 3-Castle: New Boss World 4-Tower: Roy World 4-Castle: New Boss World 5-Airship:Pom-Pom World 5-Tower: Lemmy(The theme would be a circus-forest theme) World 5-Castle: Petey Piranha(It fits with the world theme.) World 6-Tower: Morton World 6-Castle: New Boss World 7-Airship: Boom-Boom and Pom-Pom World 7-Tower: Ludwig World 7-Castle: New Boss World 8-Tower: Bowser Jr. World 8-Airship: All the Koopalings World 8-Dungeon(The level right before 8-Castle): Kamek World 8-Castle: Bowser World 9 Last Level: Boss Rush! Comments if there should be any changes.
...I take it you're not a fan of Bowser Jr?
@@benhuang2773 Oops I forgot about him Let me edit it and put it there.
@@marchu- Looking at it now, one change I would have made is to give World 8 two castles, similar to NSMB DS, though in this case Kamek is fought in the first castle and Bowser is fought in the second.
I would like to see Dry Bowser again.
7:06 Larry is supposed to Larry all over the place
As a kamek fan, I was so sad when he was only in cutscenes
The Koopalings are the embodiment of “Unfortunately, it seems this is the best we can do.”
Amazing watch I had there. I love the style you chose for the "and then there is that" - moments. Made me burst out in laughter tbh
"you can just hit them before they get to attack" meanwhile, Spewart:
He is talking about the 2d bosses not the 3d ones
He said that 3D bosses are better than 2D@@French_Fries9
I LOVE the Koopalings because I love turtles!
Oh and the Broodals suck despite me loving rabbits
Luigi's mansion 2 does the "koopaling" thing brilliantly with the professor ghosts. They possess or summon the actual boss and they only get attacked when the boss itself is vulnerable
Yoshi’s Island had the best bosses. It wasn’t just where the whole Giga-bowser and Kamek shenanigans started, but also the different way each boss had to be figured out, and the creepy designs of a lot of them. The Black Bird on the moon, The Koopa, Giant Baby Bowser… that game left me speechless when I first saw those bosses
1:25 Bowser is indeed very cool.
I think Mario Maker 2 shows, that changing the environment instead of the mechanics is another great way to improve boss fights. Some levels have amazing boss fights and even Nintendo themselves created some pretty unique ones in the SMM2-campaign. (Btw, I love your videos! Amazing editing, I can’t even imagine how time consuming it is to film and cut these❤)
Yeah, one thing I really don’t like is how most of these fights are taken place inside a small room with nothing in it. I think expanding the arena with more traps and enemies in them could fix the fights. So the player will have to get through all the obstacles before they can reach the boss. Or maybe have the arena be a normal level but have the boss in the background trying to sabotage the player from reaching the end. And the boss will sometimes step into the level and that’s when the player can hit them.
Mario bros. DS makes me kinda sad that they messed up wonder’s bosses
The reason Wonder’s bosses stand at as so bad is because Nintendo has been making really good bosses lately, and has been knocking it out of the park with their final bosses especially. Tears Of The Kingdom, Forgotten Land, even Splatoon 3 have all had incredible final battles, so the expectations for this were really high.
In my experience, they seem to go all out for the final bosses but the smaller bosses get a worse treatment. Take NSMBW for example, where Bowser chases you frantically and you have to use his attacks to clear the way. I also think the FIRST Bowser Jr boss fight would have been perfectly fine if the other ones were unique. I can literally think of plenty of ideas off the top of my head. What if YOU became a goomba and some random goomba became whatever character you were playing? What if Kamek got the wonder flower and started to manipulate the world to previous locations is some crazy chase scene? What if you had to fight an increasing number of shadow Mario clones by leading them into beams of light?
The only boss that repeats in Odyssey in a bad way is Spewart. He barely changes at all between fights and it makes me sad. They should have made him spit out lava for his Luncheon fight
I’ll never forget the experience of reaching New Super Mario Bros Wii’s final boss of Bowser growing to the size of the screen and you being forced to platform away because nothing you can do will even scratch him. it was such an amazing memory, especially as such a young kid playing with my siblings. it holds a very dear place in my heart.
3:48 bro's words TANKED in credibility with a take that bad
I think the "not *_enough_* bosses" problem of Mario Wonder, can be pointed to as a factor in making a game feel full in general. Even in NSMBU where you had two bosses per world and 3-4 more put in very specific positions, that's still less than 20 bosses. A JRPG can oftentimes have 30-50 and each of those fights is *_longer_* than a simple three-stomp cycle. There's really no harm in just increasing the number of fights. But you still need to have more variation to give them a point. I say that an eight-world format could use similar theming rules to your suggestion. You could use 2-4 of these four boss domains per world, in any order and quantity depending on the world: 1. Checkpoint keep. This is a tower, fortress, outpost, etc. used by a boss-class enemy that isn't a single character necessarily, such as Birdo, Boom Boom, Reznor, Big Boo, Undergrunt Gunner... 2. Koopalings' personal airships. Full airship level, with the respective Koopaling as the boss. Each is still themed to the world it's in, but much more subtly, such as being fitted with equipment used to perform standard tasks related to the world before Mario got there. 3. Themed dungeon. Each with unique map model, such as a temple, giant tree, stadium, flaming ruins, a colossus. The boss would match the dungeon theme and tie into the world-contained story arc, such as Knucklotec guarding the ring. 4. Stronghold/Key strategic position. A castle, command center, naval base, mine and refinery, a factory, etc. The boss here has something to do with the world arc directly, and the level and boss can be themed after the world plot, rather than the world itself - King Bob-Omb, Petey Piranha, Kamek, Chief Chilly, those ones. The bosses don't need to *_strictly_* adhere to the type of domain, even if they still fit the theme. You could have an early-game stronghold boss be a checkpoint keep boss later, such as the non-individual boss-class enemies Boom Boom and Reznor, or the make-it-bigger-and-stronger regular enemies Goomba, Sumo Bro and Chain Chomp. The world's Koopaling may abandon ship and leave you with a boss they set upon Mario, before taking off to be the dungeon boss instead. You may have a recurring boss who changes how they fight, and can be put in any level category, such as Bowser Jr, or Kamek. Any other boss that has a rematch, can get extra things in the fight, like fighting two Boom Booms, or Kamek hangs out in the background while you try to fight an Undergrunt Gunner. Finally, make direct plot links between the bosses. If the stronghold comes before the dungeon boss, maybe have the commander in a video call with Bowser about the progress of their operation, then later, the dungeon boss thinks you're the invading force it was warned about. If you put the Koopaling airship between the dungeon and checkpoint, then said Koopaling may have tracked Mario down to slow his approach to the objective. If there's another faction in the plot, have them explain why they're at this level, or a little detail about the boss they're summoning if they're not it - such as finding Princess Shroob at a flash-freezing facility where you navigate over liquid nitrogen instead of lava, and she frees a Shrooboid. There are so many ways to make 2D platforming work in a way where the bosses are fun, and there's an actual story. It really isn't hard.
I'm so glad you're the only person that who gives the full story regarding New Super Mario DS boss battles. The castle fights are creative, sure, but absolutely everyone forgets about the horrid Bowser Jr. fights in the towers, which are honestly worse than the Koopaling fights. They're so mindless: You just use a fire flower at him for a couple of times, and you're done right then and there.
I think I know how to add a boss to these worlds that don’t have a single boss in Mario Wonder. For Shining Falls (W3), I think that they could still keep that scene of Master Poplin giving the Royal Seed to Mario, and it actually should collect it before the boss fight, but Bowser Jr (or maybe another guy) steals it from Mario (kinda like the final fight in Yoshi’s Crafted World) and one gives it back after the fight. It could be the same thing for Fungi Mines (W5), but it could feel repetitive. Instead, I propose that the “miner” Poplins mine a key for the palace that Bowser Jr (or ya know, maybe another guy) accidentally lost, so now Mario is able to use it to enter the palace and defeat the boss. Hope ya like it!
This was a very well-done video, props to you. I liked a lot of your suggestions (not being able to cheese Koopalings, having Koopalings only be mid-bosses, etc) and this was an overall fun look at the different approaches 2D Mario took to its boss designs (my favorite is still NSMB DS. I miss you, Mummipokey). I think another way to make the Koopaling fights more unique is to give them different attack patterns for when they retreat into their shells. Have Lemmy bounce around while in his shell, have Morton fly up and try to slam down onto Mario (like what Pop Pom does in 3D Land), have Wendy defy gravity and bounce around the arena like a DVD screensaver (also ties into how her rings function), and so on. It's not the biggest change but it would definitely go a long way in upping the uniqueness of these fights.
Putting the games into a tier list(based on how good their bosses are): SMB1/Lost Levels: C- These are the first two games, so they get a pass, but they still aren't good. SMB2: C+ Bosses are unique in design and attacks, but points are lost for Birdo repetition SMB3: C Similar case with the first three games, fortress bosses repeat, Koopalings are different but feel the same, Bowser carries SMW: A The Koopalings have different attacks compared to SMB3, Reznor repeats but the secret exists needed to get to each fortress make up for it, Big Boo as a boss is a neat idea, wish he was in more games, Bowser boss music is cool SML: C- Bosses are unique, but they're too easy SML2: B- Bosses are more unique, but still nothing special NSMB(DS): A Bosses are all different and cool, the only reason it's not 'S' is because the final boss is mid, at least the theme is cool, Bowser Jr repeating is fine because of what Nintendo was trying to do at the time NSMBWii: B+ Tower bosses in Worlds 1-7 are mid, Bowser fight is one of the best in the Mario series NSMB2: B Tower bosses repeat, Koopaling fights are mid, the Bowser and Dry Bowser fights carry NSMBU/NSLU: B+ Boom Boom fights are very mid, best Koopaling fights, Bowser Jr has cool boss fights, this Bowser is my favorite mostly for the theme SMB Wonder: A+ Bowser Jr might repeat, but he's different enough for me to like, the only reason this isn't 'S' tier is because I wish there were more bosses
Obviously this list (and the video) are focused on 2D Mario, but how do you feel about 3D Mario game's bosses as far as a graded ranking? I'd probably put most of them at A or higher, with a few like 3D Land being lower for repetition.
@@shanegiorgio4713 SM64: A- Sunshine: A+ SM64DS: A+ Galaxy 1 and 2: S SM3DL: B+ SM3DW: S Odyssey: S
Also a reminder that Kamek appears in Wonder but you never fight him. Imagine a Wonder Kamek battle with his magic being amplified.
Honestly I would love more bosses that are just the enemies but bigger/stronger. Giant Goomba functions similarly to a normal Goomba, but now you actually have to think about how to get all the way on top of his head. Something similar could work for a giant Koopa Troopa, or a giant Hammer Bro. Heck, they could even do something with newer enemies, like a giant Outmaway that you have to approach while it kicks blocks at you
It's why most 2D Mario games WISH they had bosses as good as Yoshi's Island!
I just realised I was the first one to view this 😂😂. Love the video :) also a really simple way of making these bosses more engaging is maybe restricting powerups (or have a specific power up) and more hitpoints
Unironically just dont kill the koopalings as soon as they come out the shell spin and the fight gets way better. Sure, its not efficient, but who cares it feels so much cooler and fun to actually let them do something instead of insta killing them. NSMBU has some great fights if you just... let iggy back on to the roof, or morton get a pokey up, or ludwig jump up. Should you have to do this on purpose? Obviously no, but its so much more fun and engaging if you do!
You don’t need to have only one cool bowser reference per video. We want more cool bowser!!
You actually hit the nail with the hammer with that "Wonders boss lineup is just DS' villain bosses without the world bosses". All of Bowser Jr. fights in Wonder are honestly pretty decent if you're comparing it to the previous game's mid-world bosses, but because he's the ACTUAL boss of the worlds, it feels underwhelming. And on top of that, it would have been really easy to just give these worlds the NSMB treatment. We got all these new enemies, many of which are WORLD SPECIFIC, and all these Wonder effects and we SEE them combined for some of the levels. We literally get King Boo as a Wonder effect to basically be just a glorified autoscroll wall, so why they didn't just go all out on this for the bosses is beyond me. Also kinda unrelated, but they really should have had Kamek, who SPAWNS the airship, as the actual BOSS of the airships, because it's kinda a problem when there's a genuine question if the machine we get at the end counts as a boss or not
14:52 I love it becomes sad and then becomes joyful with that background music
4:29 I get your point and I 100% agree. But don't tell me that 3D isn't the same. Your gonna tell me a slippy floor and "Oh but wait, there's 2 Now!" Is different. Come on man 😂
Nsmb was so close with the boss thing, if they take the original bosses at final castles theme and use the koopalings or smtn for mid bosses (with the budger I frames) then the bosses would genuinely be fantastic
Three hit syndrome is also an issue with Mario bosses
Why we have to fight the same people over and over again in 2D Mario games
Idk
The bosses of a platforming game should not be just thematically fitting, but also gameplay fitting. Imagine if you're playing a turn-based RPG and the boss battle in each dungeon is a rhythm minigame, that's how most of the Super Mario bosses feel like. If a world introduces the gimmick of falling platforms and is used throughout the levels, then the boss should include an arena of falling platforms; that simple design choice is enough to make the bosses feel memorable and rewarding to beat.
12:44 this is exactly that I thought, when I played NSBM first time. I was like "nice Koopalings return after all these years and even in 3D." And then... Larry jumped over to the next castle and I was like "wait, the are the only Bosses and I ahve to fight them two times each?" Edit: to improve the bosses? Please ! remove the shell-phase! It is overdone. I can't take it anymore, jumping 5-10 seconds over and over again over a spikey shell. I got it, we can do that, it is a very basic dodge, and it is repeated over the NEW Series over and over again, even in Mario Maker it appears.
I think the main weak point for Mario 2D boss fights while a couple other long-running 2D platformer series (Mega Man and Kirby in particular) tend to have _great_ boss fights comes down to this: Mario's moveset, or lack thereof. Mega Man's core moveset is to walk left and right, jump, shoot a horizontal projectile, and a burst of horizontal movement while grounded (a slide/dash that shrinks his vertical hitbox and moves him quickly). Every main stage boss can be approached and defeated using only these moves, and their projectiles and movement patterns can be set up based on knowledge this array of moves is at his disposal. Kirby's core moveset is to walk left and right, jump, slide along the ground similar to how Mega Man does (barely ever used), fly slowly in the air, spit out a puff of air when leaving his flying state, and to suck in and spit out various objects including certain stage blocks and enemy projectiles. Boss fights can thus be designed with the knowledge Kirby can always escape from pits, and the boss itself can generate the projectiles for Kirby to throw at it by overextending an attack against him and being evaded. So far as I know, all bosses are immune to the little puff of air Kirby exhales when leaving his flying state while regular stage enemies usually aren't. Mega Man can also gain permanent powerups to replace his horizontal projectile with more powerful attacks, attacks with a different trajectory more amenable to hitting a boss's particular movement pattern, or a "rock paper scissors" mechanic of doing extra damage based on sometimes esoteric logic. The special weapon that is more effective could also be designed to be one that's innately harder to hit with, making a risk/reward system to mastering the use of it. Kirby can bring in temporary powerups to change his attack moveset in various ways, though he's apt to drop these if hit (sometimes every hit, sometimes every few hits). Mario, though? Mario can walk left and right, can jump, and can sometimes do special types of jump (wall kick, spin jump, midair twirl, ground pound) from game to game. Of these, only "jump on top of the enemy's head" is a default damage cause state available to Mario in every powerup state he might have, so all these 2D bosses need to be designed around being beatable with either that or with evasion and triggering a stage hazard (switch block or convenient axe to chop down a bridge). All the Mario boss fights need to be beatable as the regular Mario, not even Super Mario much less require the Fire Flower, Tanooki Tail, Super Cape, or whatever. Stage enemies can build on the base mechanics to be fireproof but not jump-proof, or to be spiky on top but killable with fireballs, or immune to fire but weak to ice, but the boss fights can interact with none of this gameplay nuance the standard stage enemies spend the majority of your playtime teaching or enforcing in the main gameplay loop. Now, think about Super Mario Bros. 2 for a bit. Think about the main thing it did different in combat from the other 2D Mario games before and since, and how its boss fights are all bangers. That's right, it's _throwing_ . Mario doesn't harm enemies by jumping on them in SMB2 and while some still hurt to attempt to jump on top of, various enemies and objects can be picked up and thrown as projectiles. Similar to the Kirby example, this lets some bosses set the pace of the fight by spawning the projectiles in an attempt to hit Mario, and also lets some projectiles be placed inside the boss arena manually by the developers to give specific desired properties to the flow of the fight. Mario _can_ grab and throw objects in Super Mario Bros 3, World, and New Super Mario Bros. Wii; I'd presume he can in the other 2D Mario games made since 3 as well, and yet fights that rely on this core mechanic are scant (Big Boo in Super Mario World is literally the only one I can think of). Simply having foes that can't be jumped on and spawn in some sort of projectile that needs to be thrown, especially if they get better at evading it or avoiding easy setups to be hit by it as the fight progresses, mixed in with bosses who can be jumped on...that would do it, really. 3D Mario doesn't have this problem because in basically all of those, _some_ bosses need you to jump/ground pound on them, some need to be grabbed, some need things grabbed and thrown at them, some need to be punched/kicked when they leave themselves open, and if there's a shiny new toy (FLUDD, Cappy) you can bet they're going to be used quite a bit in boss fights as well as stages.
I was really expecting wonder to have incredible bosses considering the creativity behind it
One of the BEST "boss fights" in MM2 i had ever gotten to enjoy (watching) was a very well built level fully themed around a Ghost Ship using Dry Fish where they can fully "swim" and unfortunately if you hit the POW's too fast the level breaks.
I love how there is NOT batman
I think a huge factor that matters with 3D Mario's boss fights is that said bosses are only vulnerable at a certain point in their attack cycle, forcing the player to survive the onslaught until the opportunity arises to hit the boss. Along with this, the 3D Bosses aren't afraid to throw surprisingly quick or challenging attacks at the player. If you compare a huge portion of the 2D Bosses to a good few Odyssey fights, you'll quickly notice the difference in pacing as Odyssey is quite a bit faster and more intense, and the bosses have at least 3 moves available to them at all times, meaning even when the fight drags on, it doesn't turn stale. Koopalings are lucky to have more going on beyond spinning around in their shell or shooting projectiles, nevermind Bowser Jr or Boom Boom who sometimes DON'T EVEN GET PROJECTILES, forcing them to just do the first attack of praying for contact damage, without the invincibility to offset this.
Cool video! I know you said you don't want to rank all of the bosses just yet, but how would you rank the 2d games by the quality of their bosses?
In SB3, when you fight the miniboss at the end, it is always after a tough ship. So it is good that they are similar and you can get used to fighting them. I always enjoyed it in my playthrough.
You are wrong 3D Land has the greatest boss fight of all time
Honestly the koopalings were always my favorite compared to bowser jr. not because their fights were particularly ground breaking but because they each were very unique in design and personality. It hugely disappoints me that rather than… put in effort to make more advance and unique bosses based on each koopaling and level they’d rather just cut them…
I wonder how much of this issue is also tied to poor checkpointing? Most 2D Mario games only have 1 checkpoint per level, usually located around halfway through the level rather than specifically before any boss it might have. I wonder if the developers are afraid of having bosses that are particularly challenging or unexpected because the Koopalings/Junior have essentially become a band-aid fix to this poor checkpointing? Losing to a boss and having to redo half a level to get back often feels terrible and is only really expected in games where the iteration time is to some extent the point, like Dark Souls and its derivatives/imitators. Even then, FromSoft has moved away from boss runs in the name of having the bosses themselves be more unique and demanding. It seems like 3D Mario figured this out too, fairly early on, but for some reason official 2D Mario never quite has?
The problem with being able to basically stun lock the koopalings made me appreciate Iggy’s fights more cause he almost solves that problem, not a complete fix but he can sometimes be hard to hit. In Wii it’s really dependent on the Chain Chomp position but also it’s a unique take on their shell states so that’s a bonus. Nsmb2 is kinda similar but I found it a bit easier. Wii U had the possible chance of him booking it back into the pipe cause of how he constantly goes through the pipes on the sides in his shell state, he could possibly pop out when you’re not near him
You made my day because you made me laugh so hard a few times. I usually never comment but you’re different. Subscribed and your almost to 200k😘
The thing is, the 3D Mario games differ a lot in gameplay and their bosses take advantage of that to make the battles so good (mostly). But the 2D ones, beyond some new additions to the movements, feel pretty much the same. The games are distinctive (mostly) in several aspects but the gameplay hasn't changed much, and that's not a bad thing, but with the bosses you can notice the problem.
5:02 I now get this, its because the wings complement the blocks really well, actually making the boss fight way less cheasable then becoming intersting but removing the wings just removed that option.
I got some ideas for how the koopalings could've worked with the wonder gimmicks. W1: Larry (Shifting ground) Larry fights largely the same as in the New Super Mario Bros games, jumping and occasionally shooting magic from his wand. His 2nd phase shrinks the arena by removing the floor from the corners of the room. Lastly, Larry's 3rd phase would basically just be his Castle fight in Wii. W2: Wendy (Various ring attributes) Wendy has skates similar to Mario U, and still uses bouncing rings. However, in her 2nd phase, the fight changes a lot when the rings become icy, gaining the ability to freeze parts of the floor when they touch it, resulting in ice physics (Wendy is immune, for she has ice skates). The rings also become larger. Things only get crazier in her 3rd phase, as Wendy's rings transform into Condarts upon touching the ceiling, and charge down whenever Mario goes under them. W3: Roy (Movement methods) Roy starts off with a simple ground pound and magic attack, plus the pipe movement from Mario Wii, but things become intense after he takes damage. In phase 2, he can jump incredibly high, similar to a Hoppycat, and his head becomes spiked. The only way to damage him is after he does the Hoppycat jump while on the ceiling, after which Roy bumps his head on the floor, exposing his belly to be jumped on. Finally, phase 3 turns the walls of the arena into giant bill blasters that Roy himself can enter, catapulting him horizontally. However, he loses the hoppycat jump and armor. Periodically, bullet bills can spawn. I'll figure out the rest at a later date.
I also think it'd be cool if some 2D Mario bosses took the Galaxy approach of being designed around specific power-ups, like one that need the propeller hat or one in which the blue shell power makes things easier. Helps adds complexity to run, wait and jump on head
The trouble with that approach is the way power-ups work in the 2D games. Requiring you to use something that you can lose if you get hit once either means you have to be perfect, or the game has to feed you more power-ups (which feels kind of...inelegant? Like you can't lose...it may just take longer to win).
I honestly like the Wonder bosses, aside from yeah, boss count. My only guess as for why there was such a little amount of boss fights and boss characters is because of people criticizing past 2D mario boss fights and Nintendo incredibly missing the point of the criticism and taking out the bosses instead of making them better
I think the best way to solve the bad 2d bosses is to make them invincible until they do a certain attack that allows you to eather stun them to attack, reflect it back at them, ect (kinda like bowser jr's 3rd fight from nsmb wii)
one 2d mario title(but not in the same universe as the mainline mario games) that has good bosses, a game called Super Paper Mario on the Wii in 2007. We got Fracktail, Mimi, O-Chunks, Francis, the Flower boss, Mr.L(Luigi), Dimentio, Bone Chill, Wracktail, Count Bleck, Super Dimentio, and Shadoo. There is also the 100 sammer guys in the sammer kingdom.
My favorite 2d mario games when it comes to bosses its definitely Wii and DS, both of these have repeating mid-bosses and wii has some repeating castle bosses. I like how DS had very unique bosses for most castles and the bowser jr fights and the final boss in Wii are also great
A bit of a spinoff but SMW2 was a 2D platformer with all unique bosses in terms of both visuals and gameplay, they all had a story reason as to why they were fighting you and they were always a real threat if you were aiming for a 100% score. Leading up to a final boss fight that was quite intimidating/scary-looking for a mario game with a fantastic atmosphere all around. Absolutely brilliant. I also want to defend Boom Boom a little bit. Surviving whatever came before him was often the real challenge because some of those stages could feel a bit difficult and/or long-winded. So without checkpoints Boom Boom was a nice middle ground, a final "don't screw this up.."-moment with just enough variation each time to catch you off guard. If you let the platforms or wings whatever break your flow so he starts going all crazy around the room it's usually not good. 😂
I've always thoughg of this, every koopaling needs a unique invincible state, think about it, lemmy trows some bouncy balls while he turns into a spiky bounce ball himself and if he damages you he also knocks you far, but also give him some time to attack like you said
There is one particular Mario game that I think shows another way to let the Koopalings be in the game without making it feel repetitive, Mario and Luigi Superstar Saga. It uses original bosses pretty much through the entire game (aside from one which doesn’t matter), but then throws out the Koopalings as mid bosses as you trek through Bowser's castle. While that game is an RPG, this could still be used in a mainline Mario game as you make your way through the final level, leaving room for original bosses along the way. In order to make this less repetitive though, I’d say have 2 Koopalings fight at the same time meaning you have to work around them (aside from Ludwig since he is generally seen as a leader). I could see that working alongside your suggestion for a boss mechanic, as you could have each be faced one at a time in mid bosses, therefore people know what to expect from each boss whilst fighting them. Somewhat like Mario 3D Land, where you fight Boom Boom and Pom Pom as individual bosses before they start battling together near the endgame (just far less repetition in bosses).
Super Mario Land 2: 6 Golden Coins was so so so good. Played it for hundreds of hours as a kid in the 90s
I think wonder could have gotten away with Bowser Jr being every boss if the wonder effects actually made him transform into something different each time, kind of like how mario and co transforms in some levels
13k left for the ultimate video im so excited
They knew how to do it in Yoshis Island though...
Is it possible that for the next video or so, you rank the Paper Mario bosses or something along that topic.
i've always thought this too. mario boss fights have never really felt like boss fights when compared to other 2d platformers
Hmm, i dont know much about fangames but now im kinda curious on what do they do for bosses... Anyways great vid
Bowser and his brother are the two kings of Koopa Sparta. His brother the brains. Bowser the strength. This is a headcanon I could roll with if it ever gets more in depth detail behind it.
Crazy how Nintendo perfected unique and memorable bosses in Yoshi’s Island and then never did them well again in the other 2D Mario games
I just wish Bowser Jr. would use his paint brush more. Like imagine he could paint all sorts of different magical goop to make things harder for you. Maybe as an attack if you stand too close he could even swipe at you with it. It’s a tool with limitless possibilities for boss attacks that goes criminally underused.
I feel like the main problem with the Mario bosses is that nearly every villain boss (except Bowser sometimes) goes into a spinning thing where they can't be hit for a while. Even Odyssey does this with the hats. There are so many other ways to transition between boss hits.
Well, in Odyssey, you can stop their spin in a unique way.