Borderline vs. Narcissist Idealization Fantasies
Three types of Borderline shared fantasy: Fairy godmother, Princess, Damsel in distress. Each fantasy hails a different type of intimate partner: Beneficiary of largesse, Fawning subject, Rescuer/savior.
The Borderline snapshots her intimate partner as a persecutory object and this inexorably leads to decompensation acting out (=borderline mortification).
The narcissist’s shared fantasy involves perfect love and adulation. It attracts intimate partners who are willing to play the roles of fan, playmate, and mother.
The narcissist first snapshots his intimate partner as an idealized object and then - as she diverges from the snapshot - converts her to a persecutory object, which induces mortification.
Discrepancies in the shared fantasy provoke the narcissist to become a primary (F1) psychopaths and the borderline is rendered a F2 (secondary) psychopath.
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This is how I fall asleep… it feels so cozy and calming to make sense of it all
me too😂
Same😂
Glad to know I’m not the only one 🥲
Same, currently laying in bed listening lol🤣
Wow yes we are unique 😂
After listening to this man it is rather impossible to ever again listen to anybody else- all other ‘experts’ fail in comparison. They cannot even be compared. Professor Sam Vaknin has no rival !!!
I'm so happy I found you! My only regret is that it wasn't 30 years ago! But better late than never. Thank you!
This makes so much sense. At 6 minutes when talking about the snapshot; i didn't understand, really, what that referred to until this video. I remember distinctly a moment when my husband (during an email episode i was having where i was very angry, upset, distraught, and splitting) said to me, "i think you created this idea of me that was never really me, and i don't think anyone would be able to fulfill it". Even in my state of mind i knew what he meant, and that it was true.
Please explain how healthy people interact. We do not know what is healthy any more
OMG! You help me understand my mother, a much-adored actress when she was alive. I could never figure out all the madness that was going on simultaneously. From your description of the phantasies, I guess she played them all, which has led me to believe that she had multiple personalities. Abandonment was her core trauma since birth. Super job, Sam, very enlightening! Thank You!!!
Hearing you 💯👌🙏🙏🙏
Wow, having dated both, in quick succession, I am giving dating a rest to heal. I need probably the remainder of my days on earth to do that.
I feel like narc/bpd are the extreme ends of normal male and female behaviors. Full blown narcissism at one end of male spectrum. Full blown borderline and the same end of female spectrum. Both extremes born out of trauma. As humans we all have trauma to varying degrees and will all have some of these behaviors in relationships ie every human wants attention. Many of these male or female traits appear in everyone. Staying away from the extremes or end of the spectrum is key. Full blown narcs and BPDs are fairly easy to spot. Many times on the first date or meeting. After awhile you become a pro at recognizing them.
Dr. Sam Vaknin, You just described my ex and I. Can a Borderline actually love? and seek out her narcissistic ex after they both became psychopaths and destroyed their shared fantasy? You’re saving lives with this knowledge!!!
Yes and yes.
I am convinced that the man I was with is NPD. I’m definitely BPD, but have spent years working on myself. Despite my natural response to any outside influence, I have learned how to appropriately react, and even understand the way I naturally feel is not normal. But, my ex of 13 years literally caused much physical illness, mental exhaustion, and hardly ever happiness. You just described our relationship to a T. I see now why we both had these issues. I chose sobriety and normalcy, he chose drugs, alcohol and a sexual relationship with his relative. I am unbelievably thankful to have come out on the other side pretty unscathed. I can’t say the same for him.
Every single day, this past 7 days I’ve been watching your videos, and now I’m understanding what I’ve been dealing with. You have no idea, how much I appreciate it..I also crack a smile with your every now and then humor “never mind”🙂 this or that..
I just love Sam’s voice
13:30 ( B.P.D shared fantasy), 18:10 N.P.D ( supply), 22:50 N.P.D ( idealization to de-valuation), 26:10 B.P.D ( decomponsation with any perceived rejection and abandonment and turns into her secondary self state psychopath, she starts to act out with reckless behaviour which is borderline mortification). 29:00 ( N.P.D shared fantasy)
I am an NPD who was in a relationship with a BPD and it seems it has finally come to its culmination. It was a hell of a ride. The worst part is that we have a newborn child together.
Well wishes , keep that baby happy
Poor baby
@@saras.2173 🙏❤🙏
Maybe worth it to try to attend some individual therapy to be sure to keep everyone safe. Good luck!!!@@saras.2173
Brilliant. Thank you Sam for explaining this crazy dance to me.
You explained it so well. You have a very good understanding of this concept
Intelligence and a dash of comedy 🤣 Your explanations are wonderful. Thank you for releaving and explaining my madness ..
This lecture did a good job of gelling these N and B ideas. Thank you, Mr. Vaknin.
Thank you so much for very important knowledge ❤
After listening to Sam’s analysis of the differences and similarities between narcissists and borderlines, I now wonder if everyone might have just a smidgen of narcissism or borderline in them. It may be part of the dance of immaturity versus maturity that we all experience on a spectrum as we get older. Hopefully as we mature, we identify within ourselves tokens of the characteristics that exist within narcissists and borderlines as merely childish remnants of erroneous, thoughts or omnipotent fantasies that were long ago abandoned. As my mother used to say, “Thoughts are like birds that fly overhead. You see them, but don’t let them build a nest in your hair.”This was informative to me as I was growing up, because when I would fall into those kinds of fantasies, I could usually remind myself of their fallacies and pull myself back on track. However, the sad truth is that there are people who fall into those cracks and don’t come out until a greater force propels them to a different point of view. And we can’t help them. But we want to. And that’s how we get sucked into their dance. Thank you for explaining this.
This is the malignant self- love Clash of the Titans : Borderline Empathy vs . Narcissist Entropy . When I think of narcissism I think of entropy
they feed on chaos..like some DC/Marvel supervillains...its their lifeblood...they just want to see this world and everything in it burn...like hell...
Could you do a video on Borderlines and their lack of personal boundaries.
Enlightening.
Is there a spectrum of borderline personality disorder? This resonates with me a lot but I’ve been actively working on myself for such a long time and am hyper aware. I’ve never been promiscuous but absolutely guilty of chasing a fairy tale.
Yes, there is "borderline style" (Len Sperry, Theodore Millon)
@@samvaknin thank you
@@samvaknin would this apply to all personality disorders, even antisocial?
Thank you 🖤
im boderline girl,and I always enjoy to make him think that im in his mind and I can control his mind... like a witch .. I ask him do you feel how I enter your mind.. and he told me that its crazy but he enjoys it.... for me it was like a dream :D i felt like I really have a powers..And I can do this with anyone but not everone wants to admit it :D
It seems, the key factor when determining if someone is a borderline or a vulnerable narcissist, is establishing whether the subject is capable of empathy. I imagine this can be extraordinarily difficult in some cases. How does a clinical psychologist diagnose this without seeing their subject in real world situations?
There are tests for empathy.
@@samvaknin I will search. Thank you.
@@samvaknin I just listened to your talk: Empathy: it’s about you, not the other person. I think I have a little more clarity; at the same time, I have more questions. It makes sense to me that empathy is subjective, similar to two different people looking at the same color, calling them the same thing, but seeing two different colors. If empathy is subjective, and we are simply reflecting how we feel, onto others, based on their body language and actions, does that mean we are focusing on the wrong thing and getting hung up on semantics? When determining someone’s ability to empathize, through tests, would we simply be establishing one’s willingness to identify somebody else’s body language, mannerisms, and actions, and then trying to apply how they feel, to that person? In other words, when we are referring to empathy, are we simply trying to identify whether someone cares, or wants to relate to how someone else might be feeling? I am asking this question through the lens of trying to determine the vital difference between a borderline and a vulnerable narcissist. Thanks for reading.
@Sara Fox thanks Sara.
@samvaknin where are there such tests?
After watching this video I actually don’t know if she’s a narcissist or borderliner 😳
Can you please elaborate on how the dynamics of the narcissistic cycle of abuse fit into the shared fantasies of the borderline? Borderline sees her intimate partner as persecutory but he actually is if he’s begun to devalue her. If the narcissist is destined to go through this cycle no matter what the partner does or doesn’t do then is the borderline really making the narcissist into a bad object or is she simply seeing reality as it’s unfolding. Borderline has a fear of rejection and abandonment that is legitimate as the narcissistic partner can’t help but to go through the cycle - discard devalue - and will reject and abandon her. All of this to ask the question - is the borderline just seeing and responding to the actual situation with the narcissistic partner?
Watch the BPD and the comorbidities playlists.
So much assumed authority of reality and yet Child Abuse still exists.
Thank you for sharing your knowledge with the world 🌍 Your detailed explanation on this topic has helped me gain an understanding. This is by far, in my opinion, the best breakdown on this topic.
'The resonance of the archaic wound on the V spot'; I just love that.
What happens when 2 boardelines are involved?
You describe one of these fantasies explicitely as the "Disney Princess," and the other two roles which you describe are also archetypal female roles in fairy tale. I have personally known many women who identify on a core level with the cartoonish roles portrayed by characters in Disney movies and their exaggerated, fantastical emotional/romantic plights. To be sure, there are not very many women or men in the 1st World these days who were not heavily exposed to Disney movies during childhood. To what degree do you think these movies contribute to fantastical/magical thinking in recent generations? Or even just melodramatic emotional states? Am I overthinking it to suspect that they play a pernicious role in psychological development of young people?
Popular culture REFLECTS - it rarely CREATES.
😎😎🧡
I can relate to some aspects of the borderline...mostly the reading someone's actions as destructive or possibly destructive. The thing is, any time I've experienced this (which is not every time), it was valid. I sensed a problem, and it was a problem. The emotions surrounding it may be more intense, but at least it's my unconscious brain protecting me from something that actually is not right.
Watch my vid on intuition, gut feeling.
So much information to process, but the psychodynamics of both are truly fascinating. I'm wondering if this dynamic between the narcissist and the borderline also applies to parents and children, friends, neighbours, work colleagues, or is it specific to a romantic couple? I suspect my mother is a NPD and she is constantly, throughout her whole life, having enormous conflict with nearly everyone she interacts with.
Um I have bdp and your describing my life 🙃😳 I have princess and damsel scenario you are 100 accurate. Also had 5 years to therapy it has helped me to reframe my thinking 🤔cbt is excellent tool. 👌
The like- dislike ratio speaks of the positive effect of your effort and due diligence on your part .
It's hard for me to tell for sure what i am because i never had an intimate partner just fantasies and both cases are accurate for me . I have the three bpd fantasies and the same process of idealization and converting of the narcissist. It actually hit me deep when you started talking about that process and i felt a big fear creap inside of me as being a hopless narcissist is one of my worst nightmares . Do you recommend taking the opinion of friends and family to help me figure this out.
40:23 I have memes about this, but when it really comes down to it, they're just too sad to share. I almost dated a girl like this, but she had the conscience to forewarn me she feared she'd end up doing this, like she had in her previous relationship. :(
Were/are you a narcissist? I did the same thing to a guy that really liked me and wanted to date but I knew he was actually a good person and couldn’t do that to him so I pushed him away but we left off still friends so I did save that by not letting him date me. Though he tried. Were you thankful?
Prof Vaknin, I think it would be very interesting if you tell us your experience going through academia with NPD, especially with respect to the relationship with the advisors and other figures of authority. Great video as always!
Since one year I sleep with you in my ear and I can’t fall asleep without you now 😂just want you to know
Man... Now I know what he means when he called me CRAZY!! 👀
That thumbnail. Reminds me I will never practice that choking kink when the woman can change her mind and have marks to show.
Briljant ❤
Can’t us with some BPD heal because we just reacted to the lack of the narcissist? I think I had some of this experience with him but due to some of the trauma he was re doing to me I am normal I feel I love love and enjoy me things And love Jesus and I am normal and I’m not super insecure even though the narcissist was but I was very open and overly honest and loved new things and alive and thriving and yet I felt he was jealous and his family yet he tried to be like me in some ways and copy my authentic self and my personality??
I have a question. In another video you say that the narcissist is in its core a borderline and here you say he’s a schizoid. I am sure there are reasons behind saying both of those, could you maybe elaborate further or give a link to where I could dive deeper into it? Thanks!
Well now I'm not sure if he's a borderline or a covert narcissist. Based on what you've described here, his behavior alternates between the two types, depending on the day/circumstance. Is it possible to be both?
Yes.
Hi Professor. You mention borderline starts at age 6. I looked through your videos to see if you had anything that talks about this and wasn’t able to find anything. Could you do a video on the early stages/development of borderline?
Yes. for me it's starts in that ages. That what i remember.
I will need to explore this for myself.
I m facing emotional dysregulation after repeated traumatic experiences and want to heal and seek therapy @prof. Sam vaknin ..how can I reach you?
What will you do about your concern about the youth? Are you mentoring individuals who can spread this change in culture? Have you spoken to others who can help you in this process? Can a college/university be founded that rivals the decadent values from other colleges?
Sam, so do both the borderline and the narcissist have chameleon personalities, or just the borderline?
Watch my vids on self-states and pseudoidentities.
Borderline women and Narcissist men need to hook up and stay together. Leave normal people alone. April 16th 2021
Hehehehe 🤣🤣🤣
Could a borderline shift from one shared fantasy narrative to another? I ask because as a partner looking back, I experienced all 3 through the many break-ups and make-ups. 1. The Fairey: We met at work. I basically was there to work with little interaction with co-workers. She came along and was the opposite. She interacted with everyone. Slowly, we would spend more time just chatting at work That progressed to having lunch together, to dating. She involved me in work social activities, and seemed happy with my progress. Except when other female co-workers started to take an interest in me. 2. The princess: I was older and going out with her was always a spectical. She would wear revealing clothing and we were constantly running into men who she would refer to as "friends". She would boast about the number of followers she had on various social media platforms. The majority were men of all varieties. Most would like the many pictures of herself (never with any men, including myself) I suspect she must have slept with most of them, and there were many. Alas, another major red flag that I ignored. 3. The damsel in distress: She would antagonize wait staff and cab drivers and I had to constantly step in. Other times she would orchestrate scenarios where I would be called to speak with the; bank manager who wouldn't listen to her, or the neighbor who took her parking spot or the mechanic who overcharged her. I also heard many stories where she was " taken advantage of" for being nice to people while on vacation or at the club. Of course I was also made aware of the numerous abusif a-hole ex boyfriends that she was involved with dating back to when she was a teenager.
Not to get competitive or anything but I have all three of these borderline fantasies🙂🙂🙂
Dr. Vaknin please answer my question. What if two narcissist married and think that they were the victims to their old marriage. Will they last together?
samvak.tripod.com/faq60.html
Below it is a comment related but for people that we suffered both bdp an npd relationships we need an starndard of normal to recalibrate and compare
Hi sam, as usual another wonderful topic explained very clearly and logically. Couple questions..is there any data on the probability of divorce with borderlines? Once a BPD person is done with a shared fantasy and has a new shared fantasy with another person, what happens to that first fantasy? Does the BPD completely forget about that first fantasy and move on?
Yes, there is: very high. Yes: the Borderline has no object constancy.
Dear Prof. Vaknin, if a borderliner eventually experiences the partner as too threatening (fear of hurt / abandonment) and ends the relationship, is this a permanent status (meaning partner will remain a threat) ? Can the borderliner accept the person back as a friend (less close contact form = less threat) Kind Regards
Not permanent.
Thank you, Dr. Vaknin, I’m learning a lot with you. What happens if the narcissist cannot get the intimate partner to misbehave because she is a really balanced person? My ex told me this a couple of months before the discard (after 17 years of relationship): “The problem is that I cannot hate you”
If she is balanced, she will bargain. Watch my vids on the bargaining phase of the shared fantasy.
She's a "He." Dr. Vaknin, can you please address male Borderlines? After years of 1st hand experience, I can extrapolate somewhat, but it would be very helpful to have your insights into the differences.
Watch my videos on covert borderlines.
Dear Professor. Please tell me, can the death of a mother at the age of 10 affect the formation of a narcissist?
Narcissism is typically formed earlier in life, but, yes, it can. Watch my videos about the Dead Mother construct and dead parents.
Professor Vaknin, within the same relationship, can a borderline have two shared fantasies or switch from one to another ? Many thanks in advance for your response.
All Borderlines switch between all three fantasies, depending on circumstances.
@@samvaknin Thank you for your response 🙏
Is it possible to be both and how would the person experience the disorders then?
It is actually common to be both (comorbidity). Watch my vids on self-states and pseudoidentities.
Prof. Vaknin, thanks for the brilliant content. What is the likelihood of a borderline who has shown secondary psychopathy traits on many occasions ie violent outbursts, being "completely cured" of this behaviour after much therapy?
DBT is very effective.
Thank you
@@samvaknin but will they be cured - gain object constansy? or they will just learn to manage their symptoms and act agaist their impulses
My mom and two siblings
Sex was just awesome with my BPD, mind you i liked her for not only that..one day she just ran off into the sunset..
Can the borderline switch between those fantasies if one doesn't work?
She does even if they do work. S/he uses all three all the time, but prefers the damsel in distress (victim in need of a rescuer).
@@samvaknin yes, I experienced this for 5+ years with my daughter in law and my son. Didn't understand or know what to make of it but, by putting each one on time out or separating them and/or sending her for mental health/suicide prevention. I just pity my 5 yrs old granddaughter. Any suggestions, I'm beginning to doubt my sanity or I'm getting bored with the cycles.
Do you see this dynamic often in domestic violence relationships? I feel it would be between a male narcissist psychopath1 and a female damsel in distress borderline psychopath? Any thoughts?
What dynamic?
What happens when the narcissist has actually had a sexual relationship with his real mother
@@kathyluvs 😢
why is the borderline a "she"?
Majority of people diagnosed with BPD are female.
@@samvaknin I know that. and just because of that I ignored my symptoms, and lost a few years, assuming it was a "she" disaese. turns out i had it. not only my fault but some fails belong to incompetent mental health "proffessionals" who were unable to diagnose me for many years that I have invested in the therapy room. so many years wasted. and I think this "perception", an automatic assumption if you will, is / might be causing indirect harm to individuals like me, and I'm not even homofobic nor do I believe in gender inequality. and also it's not 95% females either. I believe it's around 70%f-30%m. whatever, just wanted to point out that this stigma has to change. it's a unisex disorder. lol.
@@sneketec6370 Watch my vids about gender bias and about covert borderline.
@@samvaknin ok.
@@samvaknin I agree with the mental health profession being inherently sexist in general, also would like to add to that statement with it being on its infancy period, in relation to how unexplored the human mind/brain is. I think the explored/unexplored ratio is close to explored/unexplored ratio of outer space. we basically don't know shit. we know space is a big black mystery and we assume it's expanding. so is the brain. it's a big mystery and it's expanding. it's strange that one is far out of reach while the other is right there, inside the skull. we inhabit both, but know almost nohing about them. ok, maybe not nothing, but you catch my drift. I believe everyone in need should be able to get mental health care/advice/support but should not take those for granted like they do about strictly medical issues and do their own research, reading and practices which I always do. professional mental advice on our time, is kind of overrated and practices are oversimplified and overgeneralized. cheers for the vid.s