The Pilots had NO Idea! The Super-Strange Story of Air France flight 011
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Have you ever been in a situation where you are expecting something to happen, so much thatyou react to that thing, even though something else or even nothing is going on? Well, now imagine that you are sitting in the cockpit of an airliner on approach and you have just
recently read something about 5G interference.... And then your aircraft starts turning...Stay tuned.
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Below you will find the links to videos and sources used in this episode.
SOURCES
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Final Report:
bea.aero/fileadmin/user_uploa...
5G Articles:
www.flightglobal.com/safety/f...
www.euractiv.com/section/digi...
www.reuters.com/business/aero...
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Should I not have access to this? It was in your playlist of videos on Boeing incidents
Do they have anyone qualified to help with 'Trump Derangement Syndrome'? 🤔
His followers could certainly use some cult deprogramming.
Why do you keep shelling for the sponsorship. They've been proven in congressional hearings that they sold vulnerable people's data (without user consent) to advertisers and insurance companies. Therapy is fantastic, better help is not. Really disappointing. I get you have staff to pay, but there are more ethical options. Please practice the diligence you preach about in your videos.
@@MattyEngland regrettably most people affected by this do appear to be lost causes....its very sad.
ZERO communication in that cockpit. They were both flying their own planes with a gremlin messing with the controls in the other seat.
This is a custom in Air France.They had a lot of accidents and crashes caused by pilots giving different inputs simultaneously.
But the French have always been known for being easy to get along with and valuing team work over personal flair, right?..
well no, eventually the captain called "my controls", and upon hearing it the first officer immediately obeyed the callout. so a fair bit more than zero communication, altho certainly quite a lot less than there should have been
@@UnshavenStatue _Eventually_ being the operative word. And after 53 secs. They’re lucky they were still in the air by then. If you consider that communication, it’s good you’re not in charge of CRS training. Anyway, “zero” was meant to be rhetorical. Not literal.
I was waiting for the Captain to take controls as soon as FO started overpitching 😬
This is one of the best example of this quote, made by NASA astronauts : There is no problem so bad that you can't make it worse.
lol
We learn, we learn. It's all we got. My quote.
And sometimes, you can invent a problem out of thin air.
😂😂😂
Truth!
Thanks for breaking this down. I was on this flight! Had to hold my breath & tell myself that this wasn’t my time to go, which got more difficult as the passenger behind me got hysterical! Worse was the thick cloud cover through which you could feel the speed & left-right, up-down motions. Was a relief to climb back up again as it was obvious that the pilots were not in control earlier
Wow, that sounds terrifying.
Keep in mind that as a passenger with no view of the horizon and no flight instruments, you are even more susceptible to spatial disorientation than the pilots are. I say this not to minimize your experience, but to reassure you that it probably felt a lot worse than it was.
Did you sue the airline for a new pair of underpants? 😂
Listening to this I was thinking it must have been horrifying in there.
yes with that pitch and a 27 degree roll...@@missequestrian3448
One question that stood out to me watching this video was: Did the pilots ever know that the Boeing 777 would NOT call out "dual inputs" like an Airbus would? It's worth considering that they both operated on the assumption that they would hear a warning if they were fighting each other's control inputs. Communication breakdown was the key factor here. The Captain should have announced to the FO if he was in fact taking control of the plane. "Assisting" silently was exactly what made the FO continue over-controlling the plane.
To be fair, he did after like 50 seconds, which is a pretty short amount of time in reality. It's not like this went on for 20 minutes.
@@David-ud9juTo be fair, 50 seconds is enough time for 200 people to die in a plane.
@@David-ud9ju while that's true you have to remember this isnt like driving on the road, this is airplanes
@@MrNinjaman63 Just because these people fly airplanes doesn't mean they're superhuman. Things like this is where technology comes into play and maybe a "Dual input" warning could have resolved the issue entirely.
This is a design problem.
Shocking how 2 people working close together can be far apart mentally.
Seems like an appallingly regular occurrence for Air France....
Remember that the emergent part of this flight happened in less than a minute. At that time, the captain was probably trying harder to stabilize the aircraft and forgot about communicating. It was a function of instinct. More training to increase the instinct of communication can surely help.
@@howdan1985exactly my thoughts
Sounds like most marriages
@@JustMe-fo4ev I can imagine a married couple flying a 777: "Flaps 15", "yes dear", "thrust to 50%", "yes dear", "landing gear down", "yes dear", "you're not listening to me, you never listen!" "What, what did you say, what did I miss"? "Everything, you weren't listening, you never listen!". "What's wrong", "nothing", "no, I can tell you're upset", "I'm fine", "no you're not, you're angry", "I'm angry because you never listen"..............BANG!!!.......... 350 die in aviation disaster.
Not wanting to cast aspersions on Air France, but to me this sounds strangely similar to AF447 - first officer, blind to his own mistake, making weird inputs and the captain making different inputs to counteract "the misbehaving aircraft", insufficient communication between the two about what they're doing, unknowingly fighting themselves and a perfectly flyable aircraft into a bad situation accompanied by spurious alarms and other unexpected aircraft feedback. It certainly shows a counterpoint to people claiming AF447 was solely the fault of Airbus' control design.
Is it just me or is Air France overrepresented when it comes to incidents and accidents?
they do seem to have a lot of communication issues between pilots in the cockpit @@marydecouvertes3789
@@marydecouvertes3789 : Air France definitely seems to have an aircrew training and communication problem. Avoid that “airline” if at all possible.
@@samy7013 Just took a look at the statistics and found out the two companies with the highest amount of deadly crashes are Air France and American Airlines. Would be interesting to know which company has the highest number of reported incidents.
@@marydecouvertes3789This is out of Western Airlines tho Air France is a very safe Airline if you compare it with actual unsafe airlines from 3rd world countries
When I was in the U.S. Navy, on my first takeoff something similar happened. In the T-34C Mentor, the pilots sit one behind the other, unable to see each other's controls. The standard procedure for all pilots was to NEVER have both pilots attempting to control the plane at the same time, in order to prevent this same type of confusion. When control was to be taken or given, "You have the controls" and "I have the controls" was required of BOTH pilots. Another important rule was to never ascend above 600 feet on takeoff until well clear of the pattern, as the pattern altitude was 1,200 feet at North Whiting NAS. This would maintain adequate separation between arriving and departing aircraft. My instructor was particularly adamant about not breaking that rule. As we lifted off, my instructor reminded me NOT to climb above 600'. But my controls felt heavy, as if the plane wanted to nose down and descend. So I was pulling back on the stick and trimming up. The more I pulled back on the stick and trimmed, the louder my instructor warned me NOT to exceed 600 feet. The downward force was getting pretty severe, so I kept pulling back and trimming up. Eventually we cleared the pattern, and my instructor shouted a swear word and I felt the controls suddenly JERK BACK, giving me the impression that he had taken the controls from me. So I let go of the stick and put my hands in the air so he could see them, and said, "You have the controls!" It turns out that he had been PUSHING on the stick the entire time, while I was pulling back and trimming UP! When he finally stopped pushing, all of that trim I had put in caused the stick to fly back, feeling like my instructor had grabbed the stick and jerked it back! So for a few seconds we were a ROCKET headed into space! LOL! Neither one of us was flying the plane! LOL! I still got an okay grade on the flight - I think because my instructor wouldn't want anyone to know he had been pushing the controls while I was flying the plane. I probably shouldn't have told that story on him during my tie-cutting ceremony, but I did anyway. ;)
Good. Guy could get someone killed one day trying to fight their controls
a totally non-flight mixup happened in our family when my aunt and uncle were sleeping at her parents' house one night. The controls on the electric blanket got switched, and the inevitable happened. He gets hot and turns his control down. She gets cold and turns her control up. Feedback loop ensues....
That's what I was taught as well.
Christ, I can understand his vigilance keeping the altitude, but making flight control inputs without voicing them is just asking for an accident.
You absolutely need to tell that story. Constantly. He should get others asking him about it
61 year old glider pilot and instructor, career ending because of cancer. I love these videos for what they teach us and also keeping me connected to flying. THANK YOU !
That's the goal. Education. Thanks for being here and I hope you are doing ok Sir.
Sorry to hear about the cancer diagnosis. Hope it’s treatable and you’re doing ok. Grew up at an airfield with a few glider pilots and always amazed at their skill and how long and far they could fly.
I have a supposed terminal cancer which I was given a year for-almost twelve years ago now. Hope you do well, and find another aviation outlet-drones perhaps? Can one not fly GA once tx is over and remission achieved?
I don't know if you are religious, but I am praying for your health, for wisdom and compassion in the hearts of your medical care providers, and strength in the hearts of your loved ones as they support you.
hope you get well soon
I’m a current Boeing 777 pilot. The long 2-crew sectors are demanding. I personally find JFK very challenging. It is in very busy airspace and the ATC quality isn’t always fantastic. Taking controlled rest on the flight deck of a 777 does mitigate fatigue to some degree, but the seats don’t fully recline(and it’s uncomfortable sleeping sitting up) and the ACARS system frequently chimes, especially over non-oceanic airspace. It is absolutely better than nothing, but you still need to be fit to be able to manage, and you will be tired there is no doubt. Did this impact the First Officer? Something is surely going on in his head, because a go-around above flare altitude is normally mini-briefed. I agree with your discrete guarding of the controls as an LTC. I have always done this, to create a ‘limit’ should it be necessary. But I would not normally expect that to be the case line flying. I have flown the 777 throughout the 5G issue and never actually had an issue. The shear unnecessary panic has shades of AF447 and as a professional pilot is deeply worrying. Really excellent documentary and thought provoking. Thank you
I was also thinking of AF447 when seeing this video.
Thank you for sharing. The AF447 disaster is one that I revisit on a regular basis because it still boggles me that a flight crew could ignore the obvious warnings they were hearing and that a trained pilot could continue to pull the nose up for the entire emergency and not verbalize what he's doing to the other crew member.
Thank you for the reply. I think a lot about AF447 too. As a commercial pilot instructor and check pilot I have had exposure to many responses and situations both in simulation and in the flight deck. One of the biggest weaknesses of humans in the flight deck is that fundamentally we are descended from primates. Our ability rationalise and use logic to resolve threats is what marks us out as a species, but it is highly dependent on retaining emotional control and not responding to the reactions of the autonomic nervous system. In high pressure, threat situations it requires strong discipline and well established training. Even then, our ability to trigger appropriate behaviour can be tremendously challenged by fatigue, very large jumps in alertness levels, startle and shock and capacity overload. It takes courage and cool head to work through a problem rationally when alarms are blaring, lights are flashing and your life is on the line. I believe that in both this case and in AF447, startle was a key element. The ‘chimp’ was let to run riot in the flight deck, and was only caged by cognition of the commander. This is not an inadequacy of the individuals, it is an inadequacy of our species unfortunately. Better exposure in training (in non-jeopardy situations) and flight deck design would mitigate this. Sadly, even with our modern technology, humans are still the best device for resolving a large number of factors on the flight deck. We just need to give them adequate rest. Yes, it’s a cost issue ultimately. A third crew member makes a huge difference to the rest the pilot can take, but costs that bit more
The FTLs is the elephant in the room. Both the AF 446 accident and this incident show a complete abandonment of SOPs which could be due to extreme fatigue. Pilots fly much more hours per year compared to previous generations. The MAX crashes were due to commercial pressure, not science. Are the FTLs based on science or on Industry pressure?
@@VIKINGFLYING this is such a thorny problem. FTLs were originally introduced prior to the efficiencies of modern, computerised, rostering systems. Aviation is inherently very safe, but it’s one of the few industries where we take humans and make them operate safety critical machinery in a fatigued state. I often wonder what would happen if I was stopped by the police driving home. Would they say I was too fatigued to drive? But I’ve just landed a 250T jet. Automation helps: by disconnecting the automation early in this case the FO increased workload in a period when in fact it wasn’t entirely necessary. The aircraft COULD have performed a CAT I autoland. Would I consider that with a 300’ cloud base at the end of an overnight JFK? Absolutely. Would I have flown a manual ILS in poor visibility at the end of that sector? No. At the end of the day, as much as it fun to ‘fly’ the airplane, we are professionals and have a job to do. Would I practice on a clear day? Yes. FTLs are one part of the equation
The captain went from "finger on the controls to moderate anything wild" to "hauling on the controls like a gorilla and ignoring his job" real fast there.
777 Captain here, would just like to say “Thank you”. It’s always good to watch your videos and helps refresh system knowledge particularly on the 777. Your videos provide such an in depth analysis and offer great take away points to incorporate on the line. Fantastic work. All the best!
I have a merch Idea: A tee-shirt with the phrase Petter always says in his videos: "Remember that. It will become important later." 😂
@@K1OIK Merchandise. For example T-shirts, mugs, caps etc.
"My Control! said a passenger who has successfully forced his way into the cockpit ...
It might become popular among college professors.
How about: "TERRAIN!! PULL UP, PULL UP!!"
I'd buy that in an instant if that became available :D
I think this is the first ever yt channel that actually uses captions correctly. Moving them to the top when information is displayed at the bottom, love it. Well done!
Yes! And actually put in a nice to look at manner.
YT caption examples: the Gobi desert in Africa 🏜️ ; image of sushi 🫔; a Granny Smith apple 🫑
@@chateaumojogranny smith is the best
Indeed, I only ever watch these particular vids with the audio muted.
Yes, that is some great subtitles editing. However there are a few words in many episodes apparently put there in error, however sounding the same like the intended word (there must be a term for such same-sounding words), which makes me think it is a person listening to the audio and writing the script down instead of the actual script directly adapted for subs. I believe that's the only way to make that kind of mistake.
I'm a hobby pilot and now understand the significance of my coach saying "I have controls"!! Excellent nerdy aviation video!
@@pinnacle1717 with all due respect, please shut up.
Here's my advice. KEEP THE AUTOPILOT IN, particularly with weather close to minima, if you haven't been cleared to land, or there is anything obstructing the runway. There are zero prizes for showing off your manual flying skills. Save it for day vmc, when you're well rested and in low workload environments.
Great advice…here’s another - use the Autopilot in the go around and don’t press TOGA impulsively
Isn't it normal procedure for the pilots to verbally confirm which pilot has the controls/aircraft?
Absolutely, especially if the roles changes
I was mentally screaming for the pilot to say "my controls" all the way through the video. Better late than never.
@@uclajd I was very surprised the captain took so long to take over.
Your control
asPetter sais, it happend is a vcery short time, so the question is; how fast can You reaxt on what is happening and call out?
I think the most amazing thing for me personally is that I watch your videos and you'll mention something ... like that the landing gear are still down... and I'll just immediately say to myself "that'll produce drag". I'm not a pilot, not even thinking of ever taking a flying lesson... just someone who has flown here and there...not even a well seasoned passenger. That's how much can be learned from your videos. Thank you!
Outstanding my friend!
@@screw_it_why_not What exactly is he doing by supporting better help? What makes you think your political beliefs should guide other people's actions? What does Petter preach which promoting "Better help" goes against?
@@OddityDKwat
@@OddityDK. Looks like the comment is gone. But thanks for saying something about people bringing up politics where it doesn’t belong. It’s so annoying. So thank you .
It always surprises me on how quickly things can go from being really good to really bad. It's just a matter of seconds . That's so strange.
These videos are not only for aviation fans but also great lessons for crisis management under stressful conditions for everyday life. Thanks a lot for sharing!
I am glad that this breakdown in communication was corrected in time and they landed safely.
Me to!
@@MentourPilottoo* ;)
I have worked as a paramedic for over two decades. When I am training new medics, I tell them we treat the patient, not the monitor. While that cardiac monitor is a huge help in diagnosis and ongoing care. If it is telling me something that doesn't correlate with my patients condition, I need to question its accuracy. Always treat the patient, not the monitor.
The map is not the territory.
The metric is not the goal.
I'm also in the EMS and I was thought it the same and I thought it the same way. But I changed this. The monitor can be right. In the beginning of covid I've seen my first patient with SpO2 below 80% that showed us no sign of shortness of breath so I assumed that the monitor was wrong. In the Hospital a blood gas analysis was made as a standard procedure. That showed a massive lack of O2. I was wo damm sure the monitor musst be wrong, but it was right. Since these times we changed the education that of course the patient hat priority. But if the monitor shows something pathologic, it can be true also.
You should also question your perception of "your patient's condition". Physicians and nurses do.
@what8562 I don't quite understand what you mean.
Thank you Peter, an excellent presentation as always! As a 28 year professional pilot, I really like that you cover “incident” flights as well as accidents. The information gained from the incident reports truly helps bring awareness to the traps that can occur on a standard flight. There is no substitute for knowledge and good CRM-CLR etc. Keep up the excellent work!
@@K1OIK CRM in aviation is Crew Resource Management, which is just fancy speaking to taliking to each other. Both pilot and first officers should have been more clear as to what was happening and what they where doing, instead of just trying to fix it on their own.
@@K1OIK he probably used it to memorize the CRM acronym... in aviation we LOVE acronyms, there are hundreds, and all sound the same.
Hi, it's Bea here. I'm a fan of yours from Brazil! Thank you so much for all the contents you provide us with! May I come up with a suggestion? On October 31st 1996 there was a horrible accident here in São Paulo with a Fokker-100 operated by TAM airlines, which flew for less than 1 minute and fell on cars, houses and people... I'd love to listen about it from you! Thanks again and have a nice week ahead!
U have nice tattoos
@@gnanasabaapatirg7376 thank you so much! Só kind of you!
No better timing to watch this than right before flying Air France into CDG lol Appreciate the content!
Haha! Sorry about that
@@MentourPilot No worries, your videos make me feel safer when flying :)
Just make sure to force your way into the cockpit to warn them about this. I am guessing this will be well received.
I used to watch air crash investigation videos while flying long haul 😂
And probably on… A Boeing!😳Lol I can do the exact same by watching incident videos then jumping onboard! I just love flying!
It's always a massive relief when I hear you say, "at time xx:xx, Flight ABC123 landed safely..." 😥
I agree. I wasn’t sure if they were going to make it through this. I was relieved to hear when the captain took control.
Same here 😊
Yeah it's a relief.
My favourite line as well...
Re: FORDEC and PIOSEE Being a pilot under stress in an airplane reminds me being a pharmacist under stress in a pharmacy.dealing with problems. Even though pharmacists keep their feet on the ground,, the stress is continuous and overwhelming at times, FORDEC or PIOSEE can bring us back to the reality of the situation. Thank you, Mentour Pilot.
I used to work in a mobile phone shop in the early 2000's... We had some guys who worked in the local military control tower, who had major issues if they had a certain network and their phone went anywhere near the control tower... All the screens would go weird and fill with "snow" and/or "give false targets"... They had to leave their mobile phones outside the tower perimeter. This was on the old 2g One-2-One(now t-moblie) and Orange(now ee) 1800Mhz in the UK... The 2g 900Mhz (vodafone and O2) was fine. They never did figure out exactly why it happened, but their equipment changed a few years later - so no longer an issue, and in any case the 900 and 1800Mhz isn't used for mobiles any more.
Of course 900 and 1800 MHz are still used! 2G is used more than you think!
I was surprised that it took the Captain so long to call control of the aircraft. I was expecting him to do it when he began overtly and forcefully exerting control, even before the loss of synchronization.
my thoughts exactly, does `grow a pair` cover it?
@@stevec-b6214 No, it doesn't
Listing to the ATC-tape, you can hear both groaning from strain. This is one of the disadvantages of this being a Boeing. It's kind of hard to talk, if you use all your physical strength to fight a perceived flight control issue.
Reminds me of the Air France Atlantic crash in 2009
I think Petr said 53secs. Not really that long!!
"Aviate, Navigate, Communicate" is the rule. Except within the cockpit, Communicate is a prerequisite to Aviate (i.e., who has the controls?). Good on the captain for finally verbalizing and commanding that he has the controls -- that fixed everything. BTW, nerdy is good! Thanks.
I'll be happy to do the Communicate portion, "Hallo ATC, my plane acts kinda weird! I think my mechanic forgot to topup the blinker fluid! Do you have any suggestion? Should I declare mayday?"
I guess here with all the detail when we play it back it feels like a long time until he said "my controls" but in reality it was less than a minute? It can often take me far longer than a minute to realise I am making my own problems worse!
@@premchain A minute is almost an eternity when flying. Or just driving a car. It's more than enough time to destroy lives.
I'm a relative newcomer to your channel and felt compelled to comment here thanks to you and your team's fantastic content. Each incident is treated with such respect for the crews, passengers and aircraft that I leave feeling educated and uplifted. I've seen plenty of content that sensationalises and apportions blame whereas you keep it factual and unbiased. Keep up the amazing work and can't wait for the next release!
As a management consultant working at high levels in major organisations, I have always used the 'I have control - You have control' methodology to install in people the real need for them and their staff to know who exactly is in control and what exactly they are doing as well as making sure that 'someone else' is not tinkering around the edges of the organisation. If only I knew how often it does not work as it should on the flight deck, then perhaps I would not claim it was an iron-clad and fool-proof way of avoiding management mishaps. Nice video showing just how easy it is to forget who is in charge of what.
Deference, particularly when two experienced professionals are working together for the first time, can be a dangerous thing. It was never a problem for my Chipmunk instructor many decades ago to say ‘I have control’ and as a novice I’d give it up instantly. Now I’m a surgeon, it’s much trickier to seemingly trample on a colleague’s skills and autonomy by declaring ‘stop please, I’m taking over’. But in the interests of safety that instinctive reluctance must be fought. It is fundamental that organisational culture fosters the permissions to be able to intervene assertively like this with no hard feelings on either side as well as the leadership to actually intervene when needed. I love how these videos often talk about the authority gradient. Too right!
I'm a nurse and an airplane geek. In general I think the healthcare sector still has a lot to learn from aviation, but it's changing for better. As from my experience, millenials and so on are much more prone to embrace the just culture and the authority gradient in nursing teams tends to be quite shallow. However I noticed, as you said, that between medical staff the deference to authority it's still quite pronounced. It's unfortunate, healthcare sector is stressful in itself, and that kind of relationship behaviour only exacerbate that (and can be potentially unsafe, of course). (English is not my first language, please have mercy)
I don't think it was deference that caused the communication chasm, if anything it was ego. There seemed to be a lot of passive aggressiveness going on. If they can't even ask the other one 'are you pulling back/pushing forward' when it is the most obvious thing to ask, it shows that there is some kind of ego/superiority thing going on.
Great example of why you always re-establish who has the flight controls when you get into an emergency situation. I am an airline pilot and a military helicopter pilot. Had a similar scenario under NVGs in the helicopter. Had an inexperienced co-pilot complain about the flight controls, I said “Let me see” instead of “I have the flight controls”. We both ended up fighting on the controls for about 15 seconds, I declared an emergency and as we were about to touch down I glanced over at my co-pilot and realized we were fighting each other. Keep up the good content brother!
@@K1OIK Night vision goggles.
I hope you're doing well Petter. All of us out here, your fans, friends and family, wish you nothing but the best
I like Peter and enjoy his videos; but this comment is just parasocial attachment . He don't know you lil bro
Amazing video Petter! As an aspiring forensic mechanical engineer, I appreciate your attention to detail on the technical areas of the incident. The technical details were presented clearly and concisely in an approachable, easy to understand manner. While maintaining the integrity of the concept. This video is one that I will share with my team to hopefully allow them to learn from it as much as I did.
A great example of how we can get spooked by the ghosts in our heads, and convince ourselves that something catastrophic is happening when it's literally nothing. Follow the decision-making model, which has you first identifying the problem and gathering information about it, before acting. In this case, doing this would have shown that there actually was no problem to solve.
Exacerbated by fatigue, no doubt. 2-man overnight long-haul flights should not be allowed.
@@EvoraGT430 certainly, fatigue can cause all kinds of strange cognitive hiccups, like getting stressed up for no reason and drawing weird conclusions one wouldn't make when well-rested ("something feels off, could it be 5G interference??")
The prejudiced mind is easily led astray.
It would have been helpful if Petter had run through the application of PIOSEE as a practical example, because the root cause-the ghost in the head: 5G interference-would not be easy to identify as "no problem to solve" as such could not be ascertained while on final approach and without a proper understanding of the nature of 5G interference. Alternatively, "dual input" was a problem that DID need to be solved, but how does one identify it as the problem when one isn't expecting the pilot monitoring to be interfering with control without communicating? Speaking up and saying something like "I don't understand why it's so difficult to pitch up!" may have made the PM realize that the PF was trying to pitch up while he was trying to pitch down. A lack of trust by both of them caused each to do the other's job, neglect their own and make an embarrassing pudding of the flight. Dangerous too.
@@petep.2092 to me, the first ghost in the head seemed to be "the plane is veering off course", then "I have a flight control problem", which then lead to the conclusion "it must be 5G interference" and "must do a go-around", which then lead to the dual inputs. If the problem had been identified as "something feels off with the controls", it could have been identified as "actually, nevermind" pretty quickly. But jumping into conclusions and then actions without further consideration just made a non-issue into an actual problem. Granted, like you point out, there isn't much time to start problem-solving while on final approach, and if there was an actual flight control problem, a go-around would have been the correct response. Still, jumping straight to action without stopping for any kind of decision-making process was the critical issue here.
It's the nerdy details that I love! They make sense of the situation and fill in the gaps of the story. 'dumbed down' documentaries are frustrating... thanks for taking time to cover the technical issues 😀
I’m happy to hear that!
Yes! keep it nerdy!
@@MentourPilotYes, I like it nerdy. I suppose a lot of us who watch your videos are nerds. The problem I see us the automation can't ever match what human mind may conceive - in other words, I understood your schematics. Well done.
Good for you! Far too many people don't want to learn the details and don't recognize the difference between knowledge and understanding. They read a news article about an event and get the knowledge about what happened. To do an analysis or to apply that knowledge to another event requires knowledge of the underlying phenomena and the rules of interaction between those phenomena, which is only obtained by substantial education in the subject. Trouble starts when, lacking that education, people use common sense to analyze that complex subject, the result typically being a flawed understanding and analysis. As the saying goes, "Little knowledge is a dangerous thing." A recent example was when the news media attempted to analyze the 737 MAX crashes and found out that initial flight tests had revealed that MCAS needed to operate at low airspeeds too, and Boeing had changed the programming so the computer would operate the stab trim motor at high RPM instead of low. Now, using common sense, most people would say that a system becomes more powerful if it is operated at high speed vs. low speed, and so the media accused Boeing of making MCAS much more powerful, too powerful for the pilots to handle. If they had an education in aerodynamics, they would have realized that the aerodynamic force varies directly with the square of the airspeed, so at low airspeed-lets say 1/2 the high airspeed-the aerodynamic force produced would be 1/4 the force produced at high speed. However the weight and inertia of the airplane hasn't changed, so, to compensate, the deflection of the stabilizer had to increase substantially, and that was achieved by speeding up the drive motor-to produce the SAME force as before. Many people learn this characteristic from looking at the ailerons on the wings move up/down to roll the airplane right/left, and noticing that they deflect much more at the low airspeeds during takeoff and on approach to land compared to the high airspeed during cruise. In fact, on larger airplanes with outboard and inboard ailerons, the outboard ailerons are locked out above a certain airspeed-otherwise they could cause dangerously high structural loads if they deflected abruptly-and only become active again when the airplane slows to approach speeds.
+1 definitely
Thanks! I’m a military pilot that recently finished flight training. Watching your videos has definitely made me a better aviator.
Have been following you for so very long... Your content is something which puts us viewers actually in those situations and we get an actual feel of what the situation might have been... Keep it up
As an engineering professor on embedded systems, I love the nerdy part of your videos. Some solutions can be suggested for many of the problems reported in the incident reports, but these are situations that just were not imagined when the airlines were designed. And that's why it is so important to investigate these incidents thoroughly, even the ones without serious consequences.
Engineer creates a robot bartender. QA Tester walks into the bar and orders a drink. Then two drinks. Then five, zero, and minus one drinks. Robot gives all the appropriate responses. QA tester declares the robot bartender ready for production. Customer walks into the bar and asks where the bathroom is. The robot explodes. Situations that were not anticipated will always happen. They must be investigated and mitigations or fixes implemented before they can become problems.
Also, some potential solutions introduce new hardware which introduces new risks of failure, which you might be tempted to try to fix with more hardware, lights, training, what? Making a complex system more complex can't really make it safer.
Air France will reliably create such testing results for the designers.
@@CiaranMaxwellThis is exactly what the hacking world is all about. Few things are as fun as using someone’s security tools against them. One of the hardest things to detect is someone using a legitimate tool in an illegitimate way. I kinda envy the way airlines share data with each other and the manufacturers. The tech world has some sharing, but there is still too much ass cover that goes on. Most people are afraid to admit when they’ve screwed something up, especially when management doesn’t use it as a learning opportunity.
It is always easier to investigate near misses than actual catastrophes because people survive near misses to tell you about them. But you are right that a near accident warrants the same sort of investigation as an actual one.
Wow, I know you said it's going to be nerdy, but i didn’t think it was going to be THIS nerdy... That aside, after stumbling across this channel some time ago I've been admiring your videos, as in an ocean of misinformation and cheap opinions, there stand people like you, educating us with your extremely detailed explanations on clearly something you have a passion on. 100% facts no drama. Keep it up, Peter!
Thank you!!
Great comment.
@@MentourPilotNo thank you for making great content for us
I do a lot (a lot) of flying for work as a passenger, and stumbled across this channel years ago. People in the seat next to me have asked me, "how the hell do you know all this stuff?!" Thank you MP!
Agreed. There is one apparent "armchair pilot" with a loud voice in another channel who always seems to blame pilots for everything. Meanwhile, Mentour Pilot's channel is the only one I find that treats everything and everyone with detailed and objective analysis.
Another absolutely great video! I really love the fact that you cover such incidents that most people are not even aware of, but which COULD have ended up so much worse. And the "nerdy" details are what separates your channel from most others - which is very cool for people who have more understanding of flying than an average passenger.
This has to be one of the best explanatory videos you've done, Petter! Thank you for another great one.
As an aerospace designer, I really appreciate the details you go into in your videos !
Glad you like them! We try our best!
It s not only the accuracy and the depth of your research , it s the way you tell things: the enthusiasm, the tone, the suspense,… You’re an amazing story teller, as a non aviation nerd i find everything clear and very interesting . And as a non native non fluent english speaker , i don’t even set the subtitles to understand your videos. You must be great at telling bedtime stories to your children . Keep up the quality work 👍
Hello there, I know that I don't comment on your videos that often, but I do watch pretty much all of them, and I always click the like button, and I just absolutely love the way you go into detail on everything, and you make it all very understandable, and I have my three favourite aviation channels, which is yours, Disaster Breakdown, and the Blancolirio channel, I can never get bored of watching any of your videos, so I want to thank you Mr Mentor Pilot for all your good work... Keep them coming, from Deano in Liverpool UK... 🔥
Petter, you are the best aviation channel by far. I have subscribed and support all your work. I recommend to all my friends. Since I am a lowly private pilot, I learn a lot about you professional pilots and really admire what you do. Keep up the good work, and God bless. Jack
I am quite a fresh captain on B737. There is a lot of to learn from you videos. Thank you for that. I do not understand why they did not communicate to each other. If my FO tells me the controls feel weird I want to know in what way. I want to ask questions why is he turning. I can see the yoke displacement. I can tell him to turn right in this scenario. On the other hand I expect my FO to ask the same questions if I am in controls and deviating. Communication in the cockpit are crucial for the safe operations.
The ego comes into play. The french especially can have very big ones as well.
A lot of astronaut biographies talk about how when they became astronauts they felt really uncomfortable at first questioning the senior astronauts if they thought they made a mistake. They do a lot of flying in trainer aircraft and on simulators. Chris Hadfield said he makes sure he gets the younger astronauts to find out stuff he did suboptimally so that it creates an atmosphere for learning, instead of him just instructing. Because he said he made a major error in one demonstration but saved it and he realised that none of the watching astronauts had called him out for it, or maybe even understood that he had made a critical error.
@@bilgzmcr7035 : Bingo! You nailed it, 100%.
If just the Captain announced : I have control, all this chaos would not happen from the beginning.
Proper procedure is for the pilot monitoring to call out the pitch and roll deviations. The pilot flying should call, "correcting." If the pilot flying does not correct, THEN the pilot monitoring verbally and physically takes control. The captain should not have been "helping" on the controls at anytime.
Excellent video. The right mix of narrative and analysis. The aero industry is second to in problem solving, employing a holistic, no blame approach in the pursuit of real world solutions. I love the problem solving acronyms - invaluable in all walks of life. Love the channel. Thank you for your hard work in putting the videos together Mentour!
Once again, a very well produced video! I started to zone out on the technical descriptions but it all made sense as you described what was happening. Well done!
It seems like the investigation report ignored the real issue - that there was a complete breakdown of command and control.
They always do, the point of air crash investigations are to make things safer, sure, but another often overlooked reason is to convince people that flying is safe, propaganda-like.
Captain should have taken control long before he did!
My biggest takeaway from my first flying lesson more than 30 years ago was vocalising ‘I’ve got control’ when the training pilot noticed me doing something stupid.
I am not a pilot or even have any basic knowledge of flying an airplane, but I really watch your videos, they are so interesting and full of professional tactical aereo planning! Thank you so much for your work❤
You are a great communicator . Thank you foe your well produced videos
Part of what I love about this channel is getting to hear about aviation incidents that weren't necessarily disasters but are just as interesting. You won't find video like this on Mayday Air Investigation lol
Sometimes I'm imagining, Petter telling an aviation story in great details, with "everything is normal in the beginning.. ", in the correct sequences, very carefully, for about 30 minutes, or even 40 minutes is OK, I love his story-telling . . . , FDC was intact, CVR was preserved. With a conclusion : ".. for you that have not realized, this is a normal flight, no incident, no accident, no drama, nada ... "
I'd love a story like that 😁 Don't forget the "Please remember this detail, it will become very important later .." And the perfect technical explanations of a flight control system ".. for you to fully grasp the things going on.." I love his technical explanations, I am a heavy equipment mechanic.
😁
Yes. We're looking at H&S, and that's a big thing - near misses.
I'm so glad to see more incidents that didnt end up with loss of life. Its impotant to know we can learn from from more than just accidents that leads to death. Thank Petter
As always, extremely well explained and delivered. Thank you. Excellent videos.
Standard Operating Procedures went right out the window at the simplest upset!
I have a merch Idea. Offer a tee-shirt that says "Remember that. It will become important later." Petter says that seemingly at least once in every video! 😂
I agree
I’ll remember that. 😉👍
I believe that this is how many relationships getting damaged too. One person introduce an issue, second reacts abruptly, they both are starting to fight with each other, thinking that they are helping. Communication, people.
Yes, indeed. A reaaly good example!
Thank you for another superb documentary. This site is the very best.
Amazing video! As always, thanks for the extra technical detail! ❤
The magic words "I have control" that bring order in a situation
you are the best... i can practically fly a plane now..
That was an outstanding narration of the events as they occurred! Thank you for sharing.
I love your videos especially when all ends well for everyone! Love the graphics and all the technical detail!
How difficult can it be for Boeing to include a verbal and visual "Dual Control Input" warning into its systems. If a control column gets stuck you'll be expecting such a warning, in other cases it will provide pilots with missing information.
Well here’s the thing, the yokes are mechanically linked and on airbus, the flight sticks are not, so all you really have to do is threshold the sidesticks and see if they are different in a airbus, whereas in a Boeing, it’s a little more different since the yokes can’t be different
A notification stating control breakout sounds like a good idea, but I am no pilot.
He said why in the video, dumdum. That's not suppose to be possible in normal flight
Tbf, he’s got several videos where that output exists and is ignored.
@@samsonsoturian6013not sure the use of ‘dum dum’ is necessary to get your point across.
I remember very well the strange Radio Communication from this Flight which VASAviation published on his Channel and how Blancolirio = Juan Browne, himself a 777-Pilot, pointed out how important clear communication in the Cockpit is - and how important the Callout: "My Controls!" This was a really embarrassing Incident for Air France in a whole, not only for the two involved Pilots. Thank you very much for picking this Incident up!🙂👍
you're so good peter..! i have learned so much about aviation from your videos and i keep on learning every time see a new one.. thank you for making time to get these videos done, and thanks to your excellent team for making such great simulations, animations and visuals to support the explanations.. sending love and best wishes!
Something I really appreciate of these videos are the detailed descriptions and explanations. You can listen the whole narration with audio only and it works perfectly well. Thanks so much!
The lack of communication in the cockpit during this incident is unreal. Fantastic video and explanation, I was glued to my seat watching this one!
I guess that if the video had a real-time reconstruction, you would be surprised at the pace at which these events occur. At one moment the CPT has his hand lightly on the yoke, and in a blink of an eye they are very near an actual disaster.
There was no lack of communication. Petter explains the timeframe was only a minute before the captain got things normal again. Luckily both pilots communicated again and realized they both would be subject to an investigation.
@@Dirk-van-den-Berg60 seconds is a lot of time to not use five of those to say “my controls”
Even Sully and Skiles needed about half a minute to oversee what happened and to take appopriate action. @@DeltaEntropy
this is the kind of nerdy stuff that makes engineers happy
And me!!
And bogles the mind of those of us who are NOT nerds by nature. Had to watch three times to get it! Bravo!@@MentourPilot
What 😂
Ya
and sad b*****ds like me
I really like the control handover protocol I’ve observed in pilots eye video where the handing off pilot says “you have control” and the takeup pilot vocalises “I have control”, thereby eliminating uncertainty and putting the information on the CVR. There are mainly physical work situations where it is vital that just one person is calling the procedure. Situations where moving heavy loads on inclines are involved for instance. I like to play the game with the procedure for fun (and practice) when leaving someone else to continue a process. This comes into play with complex machinery, and I could bore you by relating a storey about a ship change that went wrong and cost a couple of hundred thousand dollars.
Fully deserved thumbs up from me ! Thanks for covering this story
Another quality video, from a quality pilot. I discovered your channel only a week ago and have managed to binge around 75% of your videos. Your documenting of these tragic events is of so much more quality and respect than the Mayday/Air Crash Investigation docs. Please keep up what you’re doing. Love from the UK 💛
God bless you for the truth will lead to an increase in safety care which will benefit the travellers and the service providers.
AGREED.
I'm not a pilot, but I really enjoy watching your videos. I love how you explain all the "nerdy details" and I think the production level of your channel is fantastic! Thank you so much for your time and effort that you put into your content. I have been watching for quite a while and re-watch episodes frequently.
I have been watching your videos for a long time. I'm not a pilot but have flown many times. Everything has always gone fine except a couple times with fairly strong turbulence, once when landing, which made the plane touch down pretty hard. Seeing all that it takes to actually fly an airplane has been very eye-opening. Thanks for all the videos. I've really gained an appreciation for all that you pilots have to do and be responsible for.
I love your videos. As a truck driver i cant watch them while im driving, but listen to them. You do a great job where i can pictures it.
I'm retired, not a pilot, and I find these in-depth presentation most edifying. The lessons learned have myriad applications. Thank you!
This type of (dual input) issue was recently talked about in my company (i flew 737) as when the FO is PF theres a lot of instances where the CP makes input to the controls and makes the FO (specially younger ones) think that CP had taken full controll and relax his input causing unstabilized app and sometimes hard landings. Its been briefed to the whole pilots to make sure that when no "verbal" change of control happens to continue flying the plane. And for CP to communicate more clearly and revert to taking full over the controll when in doubt about the FO skills.
@@K1OIK First Officer - Captain - Pilot Flying.
PM?
@@drive-channel1834 Pilot Monitoring. In a two person cabin one will be the PO and one the PM at any given time - the point of this video is that it needs to be clear who is which at all times. "Captain" and "First Officer" are permanent ranks, while PO and PM are temporary roles - most of the time the Captain will be the PF but by no means always and it is often swapped mid flight.
@@K1OIK A typo. I meant PF.
@@K1OIK🤣🤣🤣🤣
I love these videos. First, because for many of us, its the closest thing we will do to actually flying a commercial aircraft but more importantly, it allows me to understand more about what is happening. I fly alot for my job, and I love identifying the different stages of the flight sequence as its happening. I also enjoy guessing what is happening in the cockpit, who is pilot flying/monitoring, weather effects, even different approach options. Thank you for spending the time describing the details of how the different mechanisms work, absolutely intriguing.
Just discovered your channel, and have been watching non-stop! 30 years ago all I did was fly my Cessna 150 all over the US (Richard Bach style)--with my touring bike. I learned to fly gliders first, though, and that intuitive flying sense definitely got me out of a bad jam with a density altitude issue and a botched takeoff. Wonder what percentage of commercial pilots have an intuitive sense of attitude, speed and such beyond what the controls say...your stories sort of reveal that, in a subtle way--as well as how we behave under severe stress! Learning a ton here about commercial flying...many thanks!
It’s always a good day when Mentour Pilot drops a new video
And it’s always nice to hear from you!
TOGA and banking at the same time is what you do in a jet fighter, not a commercial airplane.
Toga in my mother tongue means producing smoke. I am imagining that in a bank 🙂
TO/GA (the buttons to tell the flight guidance computers to initiate “guidance” for take off or go arround) plus an immediate turn may very well be possible. Either procedural, upon ATC instructions or for ex. thunderstorm/hail avoidance.
@@innocentanderson2830 what language is that?
@@innocentanderson2830In my mother tongue, TOGA means a gorgeous, flowing white robe of office. One of best friends, sadly, was stabbed to death while wearing one.
@@The_ZeroLine Et tu, Brute?
Beautiful video again Mentour! You learn me so much about airplanes and also pilots flying it.
I'm not a pilot but the more I watch these videos, the more I find myself learning from the situations to apply to other situations and decisions in life. I find myself asking how a good pilot would psychologically deal with a situation for the greatest possibility of an acceptable outcome.
Air France seems to have a serious training issue. They’ve had too many accidents/incidents the past 15 years. I’d avoid flying with them.
They haven’t had a single fatal accident since Flight 447 lol in fact the only accident that has happened in Europe in the last 10 years is Germanwings I’m pretty sure which we all know wasn’t even an accident but a massive criminal act
@@Eruma_27 True but it's worse than many other carriers I can think of. Here are a few I can think of. 2005 AFR358 A340-300 overran the runway and the airplane burned out (pilot error) 2009 AFR447 A330 Crash into the Atlantic (pilot error) 2022 AFR011 777 Pilots fighting over the control of the airplane (pilot error) 2024 AFR356 A350 Tailstrike at Toronto (pilot error)
@@Kaipeternicolas try Boeing and tell us... If you Can
Another example of why communication is so important.
I wanted to watch this video yesterday, but I fell asleep dead tired. Today I watched it, and it's so close to home to what happened today at work. Not exactly the 5G but involving MS Access, Customs brokerage, persistent but faulty info and diluted responsibilities. And I keep loving your Aviation lessons Petter, Tack!
oh for sure man. your spreadsheet situation was totally the same. really this video should have been about you. i mean, basically it was.
This was really fascinating, thank you. The fact that both pilots thought they were fighting the machine but they were in fact fighting each other.
i can only imagine from the title that the pilots were having a duel or something and beating the shit outa each other with the "pull up, PULL UP!" alarm playing
Not quite.. it’s way stranger
i havent watched the video yet
it was more like a tom and jerry skit where both pilots were inadvertently causing the problems that the other pilot perceived with the controls while thinking that they were helping each other with said problem
😂😂😂
Thank you Petter. That was one of your best.
I’m in rail safety, and this reminds me of so many incidents. Keep up the good work.
I love your series! THANK YOU!
One of my favorite channels on KZhead. Petter and crew, keep up the good work 👍
Brilliant Petter, a complex situation beautifully and clearly explained. Thank you and the Mentour team yet again!
As a family member & friend of pilots, your sharing taught me a lot and appreciate pilots' responsibilities.
Recently came across your channel and really enjoying your interesting aviation stories. Thanks for these videos and great job!