Hi (again). I wanted to talk about the Bannerlord board games last video but I both sorta forgot about it and knew it was a bit too tangential and big to cover in a satisfactory way within one video. So here’s this one.
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My Links:
/ krosencreutz
/ rosencreutz
Rome video I mentioned:
• Is "Byzantium" Roman?
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Links to sources mentioned:
Phaedrus by Plato (for some reason, lol):
www.gutenberg.org/files/1636/...
Bagh Chal article:
kathmandupost.com/art-culture...
Mu Torere quote:
nzetc.victoria.ac.nz/tm/schol...
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00:00 Intro
02:16 The Games of Bannerlord
04:26 The Aserai - Seega
07:07 The Empire - Tablut
09:53 Battania - Bagh Chal
14:34 Vlandia - Mu Torere
18:51 Khuzait - Puluc
21:46 Sturgia - Konane
24:03 Conclusion
26:37 Outro
One thing I think is key to add to the discourse here. Board games actually being balanced or rewarding skill is ubiquitous now, but wasn't always so. We have a long history of board games being for rituals, for gambling, or to teach lessons. A few centuries ago, making optimal moves in chess was sometimes seen as rude or ungentlemanly.
That's a super interesting detail. One thing I didn't add to the video was an unsourced story about a chief in Aotearoa trying to play the British governor in Mu Torere to decide the ruler of the island. It made me wonder if he was just banking on being able to pull off the "solved" turn order and just win, but the story also said the bet wasn't taken anyway. Teaching lessons is, incidentally, how I think we use Tic Tac Toe even today. I was hard on it as a time-waster or something kids use to feel superior to younger siblings, but I do think it earnestly teaches the idea of taking turns and positions and grids and stuff, things that many of our games today rely on understanding. Also, I can absolutely imagine the chess thing-- it's what keeps me from ever wanting to get into it, that it feels like memorizing metas. As someone who plays MTG, for example, with absurd decks that don't win a ton but are fun, games with strong metas don't appeal to me.
if playing chess well is not gentlemanly, then im the most gentlemanly gentleman in the world 👏
also, that's super interesting! thanks for sharing this with us
I can think of at least one extant and widely played board game that people think of as 'modern' that was quite explicitly designed to be educational rather than enjoyable. Which is, as I'm sure many already know, Monopoly. Or, 'The Landlord's Game', which was designed to make the players miserable whilst showing how unfair and arbitrary the accumulation of wealth by landlords was.
Do you have a source for the chess thing? Not doubting just want to read further into it.
Based as fuck that the author of your source promoted his own variation of leapfrog in his own book. “This was revealed to me in a dream” type shit.
Well, that's the best way to figure out the rules for a game you don't have written sources on
can’t believe I watched a full half hour video of a bunch of board games inside a game I’ve never played
I thought Puluc was a obvious choice, as you said it resembles backgammon, played by ex-nomads who happens to be newcomers in an Anatolia like peninsula. Yes, backgammon is very popular here in Turkey.
This seems like a really fun topic. If this video doesn't actually do well then you should know that there are people who enjoy these niche topics and I would like you to continue posting.
AAAAAAH THAT'S ANOTHER MOUNT AND BLADE ROSENCREUTZ VIDEO IM GONNA EXPLODE
I don't plan to make a thing of it, so hopefully just the two is enough to tide you over
@@Rosencreutzzz dont worry one was enough, two is a blessing m'lord a harvesting season one might say
@@Rosencreutzzzplease good sir, we love your intelligent videos of our game
@@Rosencreutzzz It's almost harvesting season
Introduced Tablut to my school when I was 11 lol. Anyway, to add. Vlandia having a game about waiting and strategizing makes as much sense as khergits being a fast game for adhd horse lords. They bided their time in game to become the canonical winners of Bannerlord alongside the sturgians after all.
true, interesting take
That you can read ties into the games connections to in game cultures yet also feel they could apply to generally perhaps points to our desire to distinguish cultures from each other even when broad similarities are prone to existing in real life and in fiction.
I don't have time to elaborate on this right now (I will later if someone reminds me here) but I think several of these games line up more with the tournament play of each of these cultures then with their actual battle tactics.
It’s been a day. I’d personally like it if you elaborated.
@@NCRVeteranRanger For Bagh Chal, I find myself losing most of the time when fighting Battanian lords in the one-on-one sword duels their tournaments encourage. I can win if I have a shield or ranged weapon, or if my team outnumbers the enemy team, though. Battanian tournaments feel to me like my enemies are stronger and the only way to win is to outnumber or pin them, like the sheep do in Bagh Chal. in Vlandian tournaments, you're often fighting with lances or billhooks, which are reliable at bringing the fight to a decisive end, but who comes out on top depends on who "slips up" in that decisive moment. Polearm combat against the AI feels like a "solved game" to me, but that might just be the fact that it's been my main playstyle since Warband. I actually was thinking about everyday melee fights and not actual Imperial tournaments in comparison to Tablut, so that's a bit weaker, but my thought is that since Imperial arenas have large alcoves on the sides to hide in, you actually can play those fights as if you're being guarded like Tablut's king, even though you're alone. I still stand by the comparisons with Bagh Chal and Mu Torere though. I haven't played enough Aserai tournaments to say much about that, unfortunately.
interesting observation
What I have taken away from this video: We need to reintroduce the H. J. R. Murray 1898 ruleset for Leapfrog
another 30 minute Rosencreutz video on my favorite game series of all time? I must be dreaming still.
To be fair, maya had a noble centric warfare, and capturing slaves was a big part of it. Being a collection of city states as well i think it is about capturing spoil and returning with them.
I'd like to think that the reason tablut has a king is because if it was called emperor, the imperial family may see it as an affront to them. By calling it king, the player may not get persecuted for a game that insults the leaders of the land.
Personally one of my favourite minigames in any game is Texas Hold 'Em poker in Red Dead Redemption 1 & 2. I played that so much that I actually learned how Texas Hold 'Em works.
I mean Rome got rid of their kings but they're still referenced positively in works from the Republic. It's also worth noting that Rome was originally an elective monarchy - you could argue that it was dynasts like Tarquin that lead to the overthrow of the monarchy rather than the concept of monarchy itself.
This is a hell of a lot of thought put into something I completely forgot is even in a game that I've put like 300 hours into.
Ahh yes, dnd fallout equestria. That bring up memories. ;3
I like Mount and Blade.
insightful and good take
Now, don't quote me on this because I don't know enough about the Maya, but the Mesoamerican region they inhabited had widespread human sacrifice practices as part of their religions. Which often featured conflict to capture people, some of whom were sacrificed and others sold into slavery. The things in the Maya game that fit nomads who do similar things might be part of the game for the same cultural reason, except they just didn't do the capture other humans stuff on horseback.
Human sacrifice was practiced, however, the Maya did not practice things like raiding specifically for sacrifice victims. Most prisoners that were captured in conflicts were sold for ransoms. Sacrifices were either criminals or high ranking nobles that could not pay their ransoms or were more valuable as sacrifice victims due to the way rulers could propagandize the event. Sacrifices were never at the scale of what movies like Apocalpyto depict especially for the Maya. Even the Aztecs didn't practice human sacrifice as much as media portrays it.
I’ve recently found a love for Bannerlord and exploring its games was something I never thought to do.
Fantastic again. Loved the dive and I had no idea these were real world games.
I had, at most, some buried part of my brain telling me Seega was real way back when, but I didn't think about it until I started writing this video's base premise of "look at these cool...and admittedly oddly named games they made/adapted" and then I was like "wait.... no really why is it the celt game called Bagh Chal" and here we are.
I really just wanna give you props for the captions which i'm assuming you do yourself, (relatively) small stuff like that really shows me you put effort into these projects.
I guess I really need to play Bannerlord at some point huh?
It's fun if you like the sort of micro and macro mix of games like Total War but want a bit more personal investment... at the cost of having all the TW downsides of lacking depth in things that feel like they've needed fleshing out since day one, like diplomacy.
@@Rosencreutzzz I will say I liked total war, but autoresolved every combat so I was definitely playing it wrong
Auto resolve is its own skill with perks in bannerlord, take that as you will c: (Also the combat is part telling people where to be part bonking people with a mallet on horseback)
oh definitely, though i recommend war&ai tweaks (or something like that) + diplomacy (+ maybe realistic battle mod but its the least vanilla of the three) for extra enjoyment without adding too much that isnt in vanilla, just making it better :)
Well this was an unexpected find, I actually used to play mū tōrere in school and on the marae! Tic tac toe is a great comparison bc that's exactly how it was played- not a like serious strategic game but more just a kid game played at the end of class or in the sand at the beach and most of us played it more or less randomly/so unskillfully it might as well be random, not knowing it was 'solved.' Having played an embarrassing amount of Bannerlord, I honestly had no idea there were board games in it, much less a Māori one. I'd also say linguistically it seems likely to at the very least have gained the modern name post-colonisation, since mū to mean 'move' is a loan word (used for games where you move pieces/characters, which mostly would have been introduced post-colonisation) and ngatete is used instead in most other contexts of movement
if you bought the Blood and Wine expansion pack at a physical store, you bought a playable deck of Gwent cards with the expansion pack just being a serial code you input at Steam or GOG. It's played the same as in-game Gwent.
wow I just finished watching your other video about calradia what timing :)
I somehow missed when this released! Really enjoyable. Love board game history and reception.
This video was really well done, it feels refreshing to stumble upon a rare channel like yours where the creator actually puts some thought into their work.
I'm a big fan of tablut and its variants. During the pandemic lockdown I started playing tafl (a variant of tablut) on my own, which is surprisingly viable because of how asymmetrical the sides are. I'd make a move when I needed to step away from my computer, then during my next break I'd play the other side's move and so on. It wasn't very mentally taxing, but the strategic situation on the board was always interesting. A nice little meditative puzzle to ponder while sipping my coffee or whatever.
Loved the video, it was great seeing the different influences and how they add to the game. I only started playing recently and wanted to know if Tulpur actually exists and now I am looking forward to learn the other games aswell, maybe I can even use them at some point in a Pen and Paper Campaign
Puluc reminded me, with it's long and straight board, of cirit, the Turkic equestrian sport that's also about going deep, tagging an opponent and then trying to safely return back to your side without getting hit. It is a great fit.
this video scratched my itch EXACTLY !!! I adore made up simple board games for video games. Ever since I played Steve Jacksons Sword and Sorcery and got hooked on Swindlestones. Funnily stuff like Gwent was too complicated to fit. it's those easy games, things that don't require a lot of cumulative human knowledge. ... Sometimes I wonder if there is some game out there so obvious but nobody has ever invented it...
I had literally no idea there were multiple games in Bannerlord lmao, I never checked them again outside of the Empire
Awesome video ⛽️⛽️
How did I only realize you posted this today lol. I even watched the other video on bannerlord
lots of people have been saying they didn't get a notification or recommendation for this one, which is not ideal, but I guess it's getting around now
Classic youtube
Youre the guy!
glad I’m not the only one who’s super enthralled by the games within Bannerlord.
That KOTOR II gag has placed you even higher on my list of favorites. I desperately need some excuse for you to make a KOTOR II video!
Also, it's very funny that the Battanians barely produce any cattle, given the real-world Celtic practice of cattle-raiding. (I know calling any practice "Celtic" is too broad, but as you mentioned before, Battanians are meant to be veeeery broadly Celts)
I hope you make a video on Mount and Blade poems too.
amazing video i dropped a sub
Very cool video 😎 love it! Really enjoyed this ❤ My favourite board game was the Discworld game, because of how it has elements of symmetry and asymmetry. Though I now prefer Root because of it's similar nature, having systems and mechanics which are symmetric and others which are asymmetric. Every faction being drastically different and elements of the game whilst being asymmetric (what's good for one faction is bad for another), still resulting in every player at the end of the game declaring, "you know, I was one turn away from winning!". The game designers also built "AI" rules for one of the factions and now have an expansion to make serversl other factions automated as well. I thought I would mention it due to it being relevant to one part of the video. Perhaps if you find board games interesting it may be worth checking root out. Especially the upgraded and expanded versions with all the extra factions and maps and mechanics. Let me know if you end up doing this I'd be interested to hear your thoughts lol Thanks as always and take care ❤
So, uh, you don't need horses to have a raiding culture. I'm not sure if the mayans did, though the aztecs certainly did
Thank you
i support your no promises, only threatening sound clips btw
21:42 the dice roll is using khuzait units
I'm surprised the games are based on real world ones, though I never checked - the names even feel like they'd fit the cultures. I've played them all several times but the only one I got into was tablut. I did really like them for the world building however, as it felt like the game and its rules were broadly representative of their cultures and their ideals.
This time youtube sent me the notification 👍
Here's me hoping that the Pazaak reference means there is a KOTOR video coming.
You know what… maybe I would like to learn about romantic poetry in mount and blade: warband
Letssssss goooooo oh its not about poetry...
I was actually disappointed you didn't analyze the romantic poetry in Warband...
Tablut is the first I learned to play because I started in the empire. Then I learned the other cultures had different games and I went out of my way to never play them but I have gotten good enough at Tablut to win somewhat often. Maybe 70% against the AI. Apparently the only one I ever tried was mu torare. I definitely didn't like it. Some of the other ones look alright though. Puluc looks good.
The aserai named their board game after a sturgian 💀
3:00 is this a tease for a future fire emblem video?
nice
I'm not joking, I am actually searching for a video about warband's poetry but no one made it
Lmao on that valandian joke
What game is the hacking minigame at 0:25 from? I swear I remember playing that, but can't remember the larger game it was part of.
what is the music playing at the end? 25:22
Mu Torere is solved just as Vlandia's future is solved
The khuzait game and the empire game fiit the faction
'Draughts' is pronounced 'Drafts'. It's the normal English spelling for all kinds of draughts, from draught beer to draughts under doors. Not so recognisable though if you're American and used to the drafts spelling.
I think it's quite weird that the viking game was given to the romans and not the vikings.
I suck at most of the games in bannerlord except for tablut. I have never lost at tablut. I am the god of tablut.
Tablut is the best why? it's creativity, thr king must escape not endless put them outta legal moves stuff
This is such a minor thing in the video but I gotta point it out, the term "Mayan" only applies to a group of languages, the people and culture associated with those languages are called "Maya."
I see. I'd seen both around before and I genuinely had no idea what the delineation was. Is it also Maya when referring to, say, the historical state/empire?
@@Rosencreutzzz There was no single Maya Empire/State, but yes, their city-states would be called the Maya city-states, and they are collectively called the Maya Civilization. Their religion is also called the Maya religion. It's only "Mayan" in the case of the languages.
and here i was playing tablut by just taking all of the black pieces one by one oops lol thats what i get for not reading the instructions
did you win
@@brasilballs yeah
I freaking hate Mu Torere because it's who makes the first mistake and you repeat the same moves waiting for the AI to just give up
First!